The Sevan Podcast - #613 - Jim Klopman

Episode Date: September 30, 2022

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When you're working out at Planet Fitness, it's a judgment-free zone, so you can really step up your workout. That's why we've got treadmills. And our team members are here to help, so you can be carefree with the free weights. There are also balance balls, bikes, cables, kettlebells, and TRX equipment. But like, no pressure. Get started for $1 enrolment, and then only $15 a month. Hurry this $1 enrolment sale of Planet Fitness ends July 18th.

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And when you get to the main event, skip to the good bit using the card member entrance. Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamx. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. Bam, we're live. Okay, you have a friend that what?

Sorry. I have a friend who is a former comedian, Steve Sashen, who owns Zero Shoes. And he tells me every time he Zooms with me, he feels like I'm at a comedy club. Oh, I see the vibe with some skis in the background. Yeah, I'm trying to break up the brick to make it not look like a comedy club. I want to start um off this uh wonderful encounter first of all you guys are staring at the man who's the author of this book and uh balance his power jim klotman there's there's a it's in it's in this book i don't know if you're being serious or not but

when you said it i was like holy shit And I immediately sent the nine minute and eight second video that you made last year to my parents with the balance test and to my sister. And basically if there is smelling, seeing, feeling, touching, and tasting, and those are the five senses that you think we have, um, it would not be wrong, whether it's true or not. It would be extremely beneficial to your life to think about the most underrated and probably the most important sense, which is balance. Yeah. And it's so integrated with all the others, obviously, with seeing and hearing for sure and touch. But holy cow,

this is some compelling, compelling, compelling. This is yummy stuff. For my audience, this is handy. This is like a free trip to the moon and, uh, it's just the coolest thing about when you start doing CrossFit is you get to explore so much. I was 34 years old. I'd never, I couldn't remember the last time I'd run as fast as I can. And coach Glassman's like, okay, go out there and run on the track 400 meters as fast as you can. I'm like, oh my God, this book is just full of that. This book will reintroduce you to a whole new world of exploration that you probably neglected since it was pushed into your unconscious at the age of

two. I'm guessing that's about what happens or if you fuck around with mdma or acid you probably open that door and then again um i want to show you this uh really quick this is just strictly stroking myself this is my um seven-year-old son last night i i've watched some videos of him he's got great balance and uh here he's throwing a ball a tennis ball right and left-handed yeah now that just so you guys know he's standing on this item it's called a slack block and uh it's made it's to be in all fairness it's made um it's's calibrated for people who are heavier than him, so it is easier for him, but what he's doing is still remarkable.

I watched him swing a racket and swing a tennis ball. I geeked on you the last couple of days, and he's got great balance to begin with. You can't swing as hard as he does unless you have great balance. It's just that simple. The better your balance, the better, you know, he's got great form. Don't get me wrong, but he swings as hard as he does because his feet are so well attached to the ground because he's got great balance. is it the same mechanism at 50 years old that I use to get up in the morning that makes me a little cautious when I take those first steps out of bed in the morning that I used to not be cautious about? You know, at four years old, I just rolled right off the bed to the TV set.

Yeah. Now I get up and I'm cautious. Is that the same mechanism that is a baseball player swinging a bat as hard as you can aiming for the fences? Could you explain that to me, make that connection? Well, you know, for you, it's an unseen loss. So you live in this perfect world of flat floors, perfectly vertical walls, perfectly horizontal ceilings and flat surfaces around you. Every step is perfectly, you know, 7.4 inches apart. There's no balance challenge in your life. So it's degraded. And you don't know it's degraded. So we have a scale one to one, one to 100, 25 being what you need to operate in this world

without a cane and a walker or a walker. So most people around 35, and that's the way the world's built. It's, you know, because of ADA in America. In Europe and other parts of the world, this isn't the case, but we're built to have this perfect world. So when you wake up in the morning, your balance is slightly detuned because of the position you've been in. Your vestibular system's a little different. Your sensory awareness is a little different. You've got senses in your lower spine that control gait and motion in your lower body. All those things are just kind of sleepy. So you're now dropping your, let's say, base level of 35 down to 25. And now you're in a challenged position because you're challenged on perfectly flat surfaces. you're challenged on perfectly flat surfaces. If your base was 45 or 55 after you've trained on,

this is an obvious plug, but trained on the slack block or trained on something doing dynamic athletic balance, not yoga pose, not on your heels, not doing pistol squats, not putting yourself in balance positions that don't exist in everyday life, but in a true dynamic balance position. Now, when you wake up in the morning and you get up if your base level is higher your drop down is not going to be to a super low position really quick guys this thing is really squishy and this thing may as soon as you step on this thing with one foot all your attention will go straight to your foot i always step on it barefoot i don't know what other people do. Perfect. Yeah. Okay. And, uh, you'll notice your toes. All of a sudden you become hyper aware of everything that's going on, uh, at the bottom of your foot. I try to stare up at the wall just

because I've watched some videos. Um, but it is not a, and, and I'm glad to hear you say that about the heel, not being the right position because I always go forward. I end up real noticing that I feel like 80% of my weight is up on my, whatever, the palm of my foot. Right. And so, you know, I almost named the company Big Toe Balance. I almost named it, you know, Knee Over Big Toe Balance because those are the positions you want to be in. You know, your big toe is a big toe for a reason. It's to be used in your balance system.

And I know a lot of times when runners run, particularly if they're running straight, they land on the outside of the foot and they come in. But I have a grandson who's not unlike your children, who's just incredibly athletic. And so I've been slow motion videoing ever since he started walking. And, you know, it's situational. If he's running straight, he'll land here and go in. But if he's in a position where he's got to change direction, he lands on the inside of his foot and he's moving like that. And, you know, what supposedly makes us cool as humans over apes and chimps is we have opposable thumbs, right? So, okay, that's one of the things that make us unique, big brains, the other thing. But one thing that apes and chimps don't have as well is big toes. And it's a huge component to our balance system. And when

you press that knee over the big toe, and I'm working on a video now, imagine this is my big toe. You press your knee on that big toe while you're balancing with your knee over your big toe, your arch goes up. All this muscle gets activated under the foot. So for those who are into arch, increase your arch strength by getting it off the ground, it's a matter of not exercising your toe by pulling a piece of paper back, but it's a matter of putting that knee over the big toe and pushing down on that big toe. And that big toe is your modulator, where you are on that plate. It's you,

you picked up all the right senses for it for sure. Really quick thing, Rob best uh former guest on the show take my money and you know what's cool about it rob too if you look at the videos he doesn't even he's not he's not even plugging his product he shows you how to do it with a towel and so and i just love i i i know you're being 100 serious because I know you totally care about human movement. But since I actually got the block, I'm on it every day. My kids are on it every day. It's a trip. I want to go back to this thing, 0 to 100, just to be clear with people.

And I would love to see this test. God, it would be cool if this was on an app somewhere. I would play with it all the time. What Jim is referencing is he's devised a test it's you right you've devised it and basically zero means i think just 100 decrepitude and 100 you're lying on your back you just can't move okay and 100 means you're ninja warrior champion exactly and and and he has decided that somewhere between 25 and 35 is what you need to just do minimal function on in New York City, where everything's made for human beings with escalators and handles. And then when it starts dropping below 25 is when you're the guy who leans forward when he takes a piss or holds on to that metal bar in the shower. but leans forward when he takes a piss or holds onto that metal bar in the shower. Right. Hey. And I, and I, and I lean for,

unfortunately I lean forward in the morning when I take a piss, like that's my, or in the middle of the night, the 3am piss is like I got one hand on the wall, but if it's because I'm stiff it's to avoid pain. But, um, Jim, where are you born? I was born in New York city, Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in Upper Manhattan. And how old are you?

I'm 70 years old. I'm living my 70th year. I hate to say the word 69, but I'll be 70 at my next birthday. Awesome. Congratulations. And you're born in New York City. and did you have an athletic background? Were you a sporting kid? Yeah. You know, I was never supported in my family for it, although my dad would throw footballs to me constantly as a kid. But I was a problem child. You know, it took me two years to get through eighth grade.

Three years, actually. I had to go to summer school through eighth grade three years actually i had to go to summer school eighth grade and then fighting or fighting or i know i just had i you know for instance i mean like my religion teachers i got a 36 in religion and my dad was like what the hell i can get a 36 in religion but the priest would tell you know in the right in the comments he said most receptive comments i've heard from any child ever that's come through any of my classes. And so I would have those constant comments. And I just had bad ADD. I didn't find out about till later in life where when the expert who diagnosed it told me it would be around session five that he would be able to evaluate whether I had or not. And he said, you probably don't because you don't have the really the motions like a person with add we were halfway through the second session and he looked at me and he goes you poor bastard you have the worst case

i've ever seen in my life how old are you when that happened 47 are the sorry i'm gonna interrupt you are those motions that you're talking about like twe tweaker motions, like an ADD person would always be like. Yes, right. And I'm always moving, but it's tiny motions. But going back to your question. So, yeah, I mean, that was my way of burning off stuff. And my dad would put me on a bongo board. He'd say, OK, Jimmy, how long can you stay on a bongo board? That's the balance board. And he'd drink a couple of martinis and I'd stay up for 60 minutes. But I'd moved around from school to school because i would get thrown out of schools but i lettered in five different sports when i was in high school wow i played football you played varsity in five different sports at the highest level at the high school what were they um soccer soccer, lacrosse, skiing, football, baseball.

Wow. And my senior year, I was pushed. I was asked to play football and we played six man football in the New York area, but we played against basically youth prisons. They were called reform schools in those days. So these were kids who didn't make it in Newark, New Jersey, school systems or Orange City school systems. So they were rough and tough and very quick. And I ended up getting an MVP

with the team and all tri-state. So I had good movement skills, but none of this shit came together until I guess it was in my 50s that i sort of figured out what was going on siblings do i have siblings yeah i have um living uh five there were seven of us all together including you yeah wow big family and and so um just to keep going down the straddle what is what does add look like that it makes it so you don't do your work meaning like while the teachers talking you're supposed to be reading Job and Bible class you're fucking with your shoelaces or you're making a paper airplane or

I don't know in those days they didn't know what it was so you know my parents in second grade my dad was president of the board of education so I you know I got the best of the best but he sent me off to NYU for five days to be tested and we can't find anything wrong with. He's above average intelligence and just needs to work harder. So I have all my report cards going back to kindergarten.

And they all say the same thing. You know, he's not applying himself and he daydreams. And I understand that I I am the world's best daydreamer. I am the world's best daydreamer. I can switch off and go to a brain movie and do it for two hours straight and just take myself on some venture. And so I've been doing that my whole life. And yeah, I don't know why it is. Other than the fact, I don't know if you got in the part in the book I have at 47, I figured something must be wrong with my brain.

So I went to Daniel Amen and I had a full spec scan done. And apparently I have a good deal of brain damage. wrong with my brain so i went to daniel amen and i had a full spec scan uh done and apparently i have a you know a good deal of brain damage so how did you get that i've heard you talk about that but i didn't hear how you got it i was like did he do a lot of coke did he what did he do um i you know oddly enough of one of the parts where i have the most damage is in the cerebellum which is supposed to be the center of balance and i contend there's nobody within 20 years of my age that has balance as good as I do. So it is just interesting how the brain kind of rewires itself and resets itself back up to do different things. But I lived, I think, in a violent household.

I don't remember much. I remember bits and pieces that were horrible. And it wasn't my parents. It was siblings. And I was number four or five down the line. And, you know, I kind of know what happened, but whatever happened to me probably happened to them. So I have no. Just a lot of fighting between you and your siblings. Yeah, I think that was it. And getting beaten up some. And then later on in life, you know, reckless living.

and getting beaten up some. And then later on in life, you know, reckless living there, I can recognize some of the damaged areas from car crashes, ski crashes, water skiing crashes, things like that. So. Have you been close to death? Have I? Yeah. And any of these accidents? No. I mean, I've saved lives before, but i've never been you know i've never had somebody saved my life or felt like i've been close to death well you're you're definitely going to

people who listen to you you're going to add years to people's lives one of the stats uh that i read over and over and i repeated it to a few people and i'm having struggling getting my head wrapped around it is that 50 percent of all the people who check into a hospital over the age of 45 like people who go to emergency rooms they're the source of their issue started with a fall. And I tell that, I mean, you know, I've been doing this. I believe it, but I also don't believe it, but I believe it. Because I saw, I just saw the entire earth go through a, they shut the earth down for two years saying that it was because of COVID

when that's looking at the symptom when the issue is obesity not one healthy person died and i'm like holy shit he's he's he's pointing at the issue the issue isn't you have a broken hip that's the symptom the issue is is that you didn't use the slack block and you fell down right i can't even fucking believe that you've pointed at one of the most obvious underlying issues debilitating humanity just with like hey here look here's my block yeah it's nuts well i think you know i've talked to enough people over the years and i always repeat that statistic and when i'm training somebody and i i don't know how many people, many people who have said, yes,

that happened to me and they're healthy fit looking people. They're not, you know, obese or don't have muscle tone or that type of thing. They're healthy fit looking people who have had that fall. So it doesn't necessarily attack just those who are out of shape. You know, another statistic that I find mind blowing is the number one cause of falls for people over the age of 65 are curbs. Yeah, I saw that too. Going back to our point before about the perfect world.

Well, steps are perfectly separated. You know, every move and every building and everything manmade is perfect height except for curbs. There end up being varying heights because there's no real laws for what a curb height is or isn't. Roads change. Roads get more material put down on them. So that's a step up that people have to do that's never the same. And it's just that doesn't work if you go back a thousand years and we're walking around the

woods you gotta learn how to step on step on shit without falling down and getting hurt you know we have these huge um you know you were around in the 80s and we have these the whole thing was everyone's dying of aids i never knew one person who died of aids but off the top of my head i can think of six people's grandmothers who fell broke their hip and died right just six just like that oh his his his his his right it's like it's like yeah you broke your hip you went to the hospital you got pneumonia you died you know what the number one cause of concussions are 90 billion dollar a year problem it's not john it's not johnny on the football field or sally on a soccer pitch it's from falls falls. And so I just find it interesting. I mean, there's a famous, I have his book here.

It's all taped up. There's a famous podcaster who wrote a big book on brain health and all the things you can do for brain health. Take this and do this and meditate here and all this kind of stuff. And there's nothing in there about improve your balance because the number one cause of TBIs, concussions, are falls. So I take care of a lot of problems without having to go through all that other shit to protect my brain just by having better balance. It's interesting you bring up meditation.

There are these activities that we can do in life that people – I don't think a lot of people really understand what, um, even meditation is, but, uh, smoking is a form of meditation. It's evil meditation, but, but it is, uh, it brings all of your attention to your fingers and to your mouth and you take a deep breath in, unfortunately, you breathe in carcinogens, but the nicotine is also probably one of the greatest drugs to, um, to, to help with meditation. But if you stand on this slack block and you ask yourself what is the definition of meditation it's you will be forced into a meditative state it's like walking into a room and imagine a king cobra in there and then the door locks behind you all of your attention will go to this king cobra now obviously the situation in the room with the king cobra is much more severe it's life or death but when you stand on the slack block, your entire body will say to you, you need to pay attention. You're going to fall down.

describe that in the inverse that there's people who could control their heartbeats there's people who can control their breathing there's people who can control all these nuances of life but but there's no one who can just be like okay i'm gonna lose my balance right you can't do that sincerely you have to fake it and i was like wow and it's almost impossible or you need a horse to kick you in the head right well i mean two things one you i mean it's really wonderful you picked up on that meditative part of it because i've had people who want to train we don't train anybody with music on because artificial shuts off the conscious mind okay so i had a client that came in who had great balance but he always trained with earplugs in and he was a paddleboard racer. Wasn't pro, but he was pretty good. He went to some big race. He fell 19 times. And I said, dude, I told you when you wear those headphones, you don't have good balance when you don't have

them in. So next time you race, get waterproof headphones, put them in and see how it goes. Next time he races, doesn't fall once because he's got waterproof headphones in. So unless you play your sport with music on, you can do it. But otherwise, you have to learn to. And I've been doing this for 10 years. And I'm, you know, the 12 minute routine sounds like you know something about it. When I do those two minute segments, I swear to God, for me, even today at about a minute 30, a minute 45, I go, oh, damn, I didn't push the button on the clock. Oh, the clock must be broken.

And it's not that I don't have the ability to do it. It's the neurological focus. It's not just brain focus, because you have brain tissue all around your body that's affecting your balance. It's neurological focus. It's pretty fucking intense. And so it's amazing that you understood that, because that's exactly what it is. But you have pushed the button button on the clock but it's your brain starting to tell you a story to try to get out of the activity yeah it's not my brain it's my body's just getting i'm just i'm neurologically exhausted it's just like i want to something you know there's sort of like this fear model that module that takes over brain is quiet the whole time no you know plays to activate we spent a lot of time with vision and i don't i talked a little bit about it in the book and you know i don't talk about a lot of time with vision. I talked a little bit about it in the book.

I don't talk about a lot of things online unless we're selling it. We haven't started selling this yet. There's an aspect of your vision that changes dramatically as your balance improves. Your eyes open up to a wider space. You take in more data. Your eyes don't see, by the way. Your your eyes only collect data your brain is what sees so that whole system starts to activate and become better as your balance improves when my dad started to lose his hearing he would say um that uh he would accuse everyone of mumbling right why are you mumbling Why are you mumbling?

Why are you mumbling? And I would tell him, hey, dude, your hearing's fucked up. And he didn't wear – and I'm going to – there's something you point to. There's a direct parallel in your book about that. Yeah. I'll find it unless you can remember what I'm talking about. No, I remember exactly what it is. Okay, what is it?

Well, it's – and again, it's part of why I don't talk a lot. So we have this peripheral vision system, and it pulls in a massive amount of data just to give you some simple numbers you've got cones rods and cones so cones are what see color and shape and when you see my hand that's the cones working rods are only supposed to see you know help you with light dusk and some movement but there's a problem with that in that there's only like six or seven million cones, and there's 120 million rods. So there's like, what, 12, 15 times more rods than there are cones. So whoever created this system, we're in, we're like 15 times more.

Oh, but wait a minute. Rods are 1,000 times more light sensitive than cones. So now I have like, what, 15,000 times more power in these rods. And supposedly all they see is shape and a little movement and differences in light. Not the case. And so peripheral vision is a massive part of your balance system. And once you learn how to engage your peripheral vision properly, your balance system improves.

But what's happening today is like the child, like somebody with hearing, when your hearing gets turned off or you start to lose your hearing, you lose the ability to perceive what's good information coming into your ears. So when you get those hearing aids put in, and if you put them in too late, you hear everything. My mom did this,

drove her crazy. She goes in a restaurant. She hears every voice. Oh, that's the goes in a restaurant she hears every voice oh that's the by the way that's the that's the nicotine's the only drug by the way that they know of man that's called uh i read a book about that called range it's slightly different than focus you lose your ability to choose okay i'm not going to listen to the chirping birds i'm only going to listen to jim right so when i work with when i work with concussion clients, they lose that system. And what happens is they've now been traumatized around the brain and the head, and they're in a state of post-traumatic stress, the body is. So they're looking around trying to pick up a threat with their conscious vision. And at some point,

they just get worn out. The brown, I call it brown out, the brain goes to, drops down to not being able to perform properly, and they have to get out of that situation and go rest someplace in a dark room. Well, you and I walk around. If you have good peripheral vision, you're able to pick up threats. Now, what happens, and I think I might mention this in the book, there is peripheral vision denial going on now because if you relate this to, and I'll tell you in a second, everybody's looking at screens,

looking at screens, and they're not seeing what's going around the screens. So I've had people, little people looking at the screen, walk right into me. Well, you know, if you were in the jungle, I see that shit every day. I see that shit every day as I drive my kids around from activity to activity. People, they're, I call it social, lack of situational awareness, but you're right. It's, they can't see. Well, what happens? You don't know what amblyopia is when a kid has a weak eye. So if someone has amblyopia, a child has amblyopia, you cover the strong eye and the weak eye can see. It just learns how to muscle in and get into the right direction where you want it to go.

By age eight, if it has not been corrected, the brain goes, eh, I'm done, and shuts off that part of the brain. The eye can see, but the brain's just like, I'm done with that. So it's very hard to get amblyopia back in line again after age eight. Well, the same thing's true with peripheral vision denial to some extent. If we're doing this all the time, we're shutting off the processing centers in the brain that are trying to pick up this data. And we spend a lot of time working on that. We have methods for it that I won't talk about here.

But, I mean, I'll talk about it with you privately. How about just go stand on a boat and look out at the fucking horizon for a month? Exactly. In New Mexico, right? And just let that shit just open up. Exactly. And why do executives have the big windows and the big offices on the top of the building? Because it helps your thinking better than anybody else.

You look out that window and like, oh, shit just comes to you. You're right. Those big giant vistas are wonderful. Out West, all that stuff is incredible. And because there's no perfectly vertical, horizontal surfaces, everything's fractal. Your brain doesn't get lined up. Your vision doesn't get lined up. surfaces. Everything's fractal. Your brain doesn't get lined up. Your vision doesn't get lined up.

Your body has to sort of line up with the energy around it, so to speak, and not be looking at the visual cues. I agree with that 100%. I think that's a great way to do it. And that's why people do it. By the way, you do things like that for fun. You balance train for fun. You go play every sport that you play to challenge your balance. It makes you feel good. And people don't think about, oh, I know lifting makes me feel good. Lifting's got like a massive balance challenge to it, for God's sakes. And try to do that on an even surface. It takes it even to a higher level. The point is you're always challenging your balance. You're always opening your vista and it makes you feel good. It's when you get in front of that computer, get in that room you get in that box you just things go to

shit so one of the uh just most beautiful representations i know of of a man when i think of a man is this guy this friend of mine uh donovan winters he has a daughter and they come over and play with my kids a lot and uh he's just a he's just a man like when i think like you open up the book man and he's in there he's kind he's beautiful he's gentle and he's fierce and he's powerful and he's fearless and he's present and and um and i said to him dude have you seen this slack box oh yeah i had it at my desk for years i stand on every day i'm like yeah of course you fucking do yeah and you know it's like i get it the the balance like he knew he's and and he's not he's no geek you know what i mean he's not like yeah he's not geeking out on all the newest shit yeah he just um that's a

wonderful compliment yeah that's wonderful yeah um there's's a going back to my dad. So basically what I watch happened is his hearing went bad and he didn't get hearing aids. And I watched his mental something. I watched him erode mentally. And I watched him compensate for lack of knowing what's going on in the outside world with a noisier brain. And it fucking broke my heart. Yeah. And and now he's wearing a hearing aid more. But what happened was he started – and we're surrounded in a world. I would say at least half the country is like this anyway without loss of hearing. But they're in an echo chamber.

Right. So I would say something to him, and he wouldn't really understand what I was saying. So he would make up what he thought it was. And then he would respond to that made up thing. Right. And man, it broke, it broke my heart watching. I watched his hearing a road and then it caused his, his, some, some sort of mental component that you were talking about a road instead of periphery. It was.

Right. Yeah. I mean, I watched it. My father didn't have lose his hearing, but he was in the textile business and all his friends were and they all worked in the mills when they were kids and and um they were noisy and they were all half deaf and he would joke about you know sitting down at breakfast with them you know hey it's a beautiful day out yeah the rays played a great game you know yes

yes that conversation would go on and he'd go geez you can't even join in so uh what about looking up at the sky i know we're falling into a hole again this is a great point have you ever looked up into the sky for a couple minutes at a time is that a good uh therapy for i don't know for balance i don't know i i you know i mean it's obviously not bad for you to look up at the sky it's got to have some therapeutic component but what about in regards to balance no i mean i don't think so we we just say open your vision you know i we have physical tests that i can show you that when you look at a drisji point you know like they do in yoga and i still never say that right because i feel like i'm going to spit when i say it right can do you know how to spell it? I want to look it up. Never heard that word. D-R-I-S-H.

You have to go, something like that. Maybe my wife's listening live right now and she'll like, quickly. Okay. Anyway. Okay.

Go on. Someone will say, someone will write it in the comments and I'll google it go on yeah i mean i saw i was at the biohacking show recently and explained to a guy how you know looking at a point makes you not balance as well you actually lose coordination and he said i have such a hard time with the tree pose and i said well here let me show you took him through how physically and he was less coordinated when he looked at a point and then showed him how he was more coordinated when he had broad vision. And then we went through and I showed him a couple of things to do when he did his tree pose. And he's like, it's easy now.

And so once you understand a few components about balance, you do the tree pose. It's really not a problem at all. So we, you know, I mean, don't get me wrong, yoga is fine, but it's just interesting that people do different things that they consider to be balanced, but they're not, particularly if you're holding still. If you've got your arms crossed and a leg pegged to the other leg, that's not balance. I mean, it's balance, don't get me wrong, but it's not true dynamic athletic movement balance it's not a balance that i need to live my life it's it's not in an athletic position yesterday after we um i pulled out the bongo board for my kids there you go and and my kids are fantastic skateboarders and they're just fantastic at everything they do but but doesn't come doesn't come natural it's all

it's work like i'm gonna get off the podcast with you and i'm gonna work with them until seven o'clock at night it's just it's just we just train all day um but i pull out the bongo board and they suck at it they completely suck at it it was fascinating and they started crying and getting scared when i got on i'm like dude I own this thing. I can't do that slack. Like my son was doing pistols on the slack block. I'm like, I can't do that.

But I own. And it's interesting. There are different kinds of balance. Yeah. I would think they would own the bongo board. It's a joke. Here. Let me see if I can switch over.

You can. You see that? So we have. Oh, I want that so bad. I want your. Oh, you are so cool. So we have. We're getting want that so bad. I want your. Oh, you are so cool. So we have. We're getting ready to market. This is one I'll show now, but we have several others to do several different things.

But, you know, one thing I train all the time on these boards is when people get on them barefoot. But, you know, your knees have to be in because your motion is is this. It's not up and down. And when little kids get out, they want to do up and down. Yes, that's what they do. They get all radical. Yeah. So you just want to go side to side.

So we actually will hold their hands to begin with. But, you know, when you get on it. Don't make them soft, Jim. Don't be holding anyone's hands. No, initially it's okay just to get them started. And you can actually stand behind them and have your hands beside their hips. And it only takes a quarter pound of balance to stay uh stay up you know we do this and then we do all kinds of things that go with this we don't do ollies and kinds of tricks but um i think that's

a very important training device as well so it's you got a small roller under yours the bongo ball is like a huge one that that isn't the cylinder also isn't um so i'll give you our design off on the edges yeah so we do this so we got ours trailing through in here we have a three inch roller the bigger the roller the harder it is to get up on it but the easier it is once you're up on it and then secondly when the when, when the roller doesn't have any stops and it's outside your shoulders, it's real easy to have it shoot from underneath you. So when I get up on it, it's easier at a smaller height.

But it's harder ultimately because it rolls faster. When is that thing behind you going to be released? We're working on it. I need that. Yeah, they're wonderful. So we're, we've really upgraded the design, but what we're trying to do is make it lighter, but it's interesting. You know, I know you're in the world of lifting, right? So this is a hard thing to do balance wise, it looks easier once you know how to do it. But if I bounce up and down on this thing, I'm landing with maybe three times my body weight over a 10 foot span.

I mean, there's thousands of pounds of pressure on the middle of this thing and we're trying to make it lighter. And you know, every time we make it lighter, the engineers say, we got it. It's good.

I said, well, I got to come test it out. I come test it out. I jump on a few times and he goes, so we're trying to make it not so brute, the engineers say we got it it's good i said well i gotta come test it out i come test it out i jump on a few times and he goes so we're trying to make it not so brute big and uh shorter and probably a little bit more difficult have road make it will weigh 700 pounds and um it will never it will never fold in half yeah no i i've I've thought of that, but you know, we,

we're going to give it one more shot and then maybe I'll go talk to him. You know, Rogue sells a Slack block, which I appreciate that. Why don't you do Amazon? What's the business thought behind that? Well, we're getting ready to get on Amazon. One is that, you know, initially we knew how much people liked the product. So we hadn't really circled the product yet with all the patents. We have a couple of patents on it. Blake Hudson, our technical officer, has done a great job of getting patents for the Slack block.

And then we have a design patent on it. We trademarked the name Slack block. But, you know, as soon as you get on there and you um get 200 good reviews you've just done marketing for all the knockoff artists all over the world and then you're playing whack-a-mole trying to get them out of the way so we've we've encircled the product pretty well now with uh patent protections and it's you know one reason we never went on kickstarter you go on kickstarter and you do, and then, and you've just done everybody else's marketing. So we, uh, we've stayed away, but now we're, we're looking at either, I don't

know how we're going to do it. We're talking to one company in terms of handling it ourselves. And we're talking to another company in terms of having them take it over completely and let me do marketing and the things that I should be doing instead of running a business um there is a great influencer story it's not a word I use I think I've done 600 shows that's the first time I've ever used the word influencer there's a great influencer story that between you and Kelly Starrett yeah um can you you tell me what year, can you tell me the journey? What year did you first make your very first slack block? The slack block was probably six years ago.

Slack bow, five years ago, slack block. Slack bow was 11 years ago. So slack block, when you made that, did you just go, did you just go to the store and buy a piece of foam and put a piece of wood on it and start there no so you tell me about the first prototype and then how it how kelly started found it yeah so i mean it started here you know go back to here you know start i had the slack bow and i had a little gym in park city utah and so i noticed as i as i swept it up steeper on the sides that the foot would deform on the line. So then I made a plate to go on the line. And I noticed that the plate

was, and this is an interesting thing that people find hard to believe, standing on a rope is easier than standing on a one-inch line. Standing on a one-inch line is easier than standing on a two-inch line. And on one-inch lines easier than standing on a two-inch line and standing on a three and a half inch plate is harder than standing on a two-inch line. So I found that, you know, getting this plate, suddenly I was trying to not deform the line. And oh, the other thing I didn't want to do was I was always having to clean the lines because we were doing barefoot and it was a pain in the ass to clean them. With the plate, I just washed the plate. So it turns out with the plate that three and a half inches made it harder. But not only that, I could get my big toe.

You can't see this probably, but I get my big toe on the line. I mean, on the plate where before, if I just had the line, my big toe, most important part of the balance system was off. Now my big toes engaged when I stand up on the line. So I thought this is all pretty cool. And in those days I had this foam that I put on the ends to protect people from dinging their heads, because I had not had the product out for that long, and I was always worried about someone falling and splitting their head open. And then, I don't know, one day I was screwing around, and I took the foam, I stood on the foam, and I would train people on the foam, you know, like the AirX foam, but, you know, just our little thin piece of foam, and then one day I put the plate on, and I was like, oh shit, this is it, so it was not any

act of genius, it was just acts of, I guess, most of my life, which is just, well, that seems interesting, let me just mess around with that, so we got the slack block made, and I started making them by hand, and I sold some, and it's time I had a very specific foam. And then I went and lost the contact with that foam and had one manufacturer. We made a batch that wasn't that good. And then I don't know, you know, I've been selling to major teams. I mean, there was a major football team. I was living, I was dead broke. I was living in a borrowed home. It's in debt right at the beginning of COVID and. And I'm not going to say who it is.

A major football team. They're a top, I believe, a top six football team. And they called me up. NFL team. No, college team. And they called me up. And he's probably the highest paid trainer in the country. He called me up around Christmas.

He says, I've been meaning to tell you. And they bought like 60 slack box for me every year. And he said, I just got to tell you, we created a nine level test only for him. And the only people that have it out there, he said, I got to tell you everything you said is true. He said, we, our injury rates are way down. When someone moves up in their testing score they perform better on the field we now remediate everybody everybody has a score we check on them every few weeks we begin every session with slack bow balance training of some sort and like cool and he said i want to go into business with you i want to be partners with you and um i just think he's going to take over the world. I'm like, good.

Finally, I did the entrepreneur's bottom out. Things are going to turn around. So we'll speak after Christmas. So he spoke after Christmas and he goes, well, he said, we're going to we want to wait till we win a national championship before we tell everybody. to wait until we win a national championship before we tell everybody. I said, how about us going? He said, yeah, but let's just wait until we get to a national championship. This was a problem I started running into everywhere. We have teams and coaches and trainers that use this product and go crazy over it. Then they don't want to tell anybody about it because it ends up being a competitive advantage. Really?

because it ends up being a competitive advantage. Oh, really? Yeah. So I'm back, and these guys don't want to tell anybody. So I'm back to sucking wind on the product. And, you know, just to have some of these teams go, hey, yeah, we use it. We love it. So then moving forward. Were you broke because of all the time and energy you were putting into this?

You were just chasing one dream yeah because i had started i had created other technologies in the past and i didn't hang with them i let them go because developers have a problem one we're socially awkward and that's why we develop things because we don't understand that it can't be done right so two there's a tendency to give up because you get trampled on by people knocking you off people telling you you're crazy and so for nine years the strength and conditioning community told me i was nuts i mean they told me i was causing injuries that there was no association with balance and improved performance you know 70 what was the what was the injury? People falling off the block? I, no, no, yes, no, it would cause you to, no, not falling off.

It would cause you to have a different kind of muscle alignment that would make for ACL tears, which is not true. We see totally the opposite happening. But, and then, you know, I love the research part of it because I've looked at all the research. They had either bad protocols or bad outcomes measured. So it wasn't even worthwhile research. Ours was simple. I mean, does it improve athletic performance? And it did. So we just went from there. But the other was it is zero risk.

If you if you use a slack block for two or three hours, your performance going to improve right away you'll notice it somewhere in your athletic performance and by two or three hours you mean uh 15 minutes a day right for a few months you're not talking about two or three hour session right okay right so if you do like a total of let's say 10 to 20 sessions you'll notice huge differences so um then one day the story is Kelly. Somehow Tim Ferriss had some. So Kelly, he tells the story. I went into Tim's garage with everybody. Oh, yes. It's such a piece of shit. It was in Tim's garage. Tim's fitness center is in his garage. You know, he probably has a seven car garage and there's one bay that's just devoted to equipment. Kelly said he got on it the first time he got on it, that was it. He said,

I knew right away it was a game changer. And so he got online and he bragged about it. And I said, Kelly, can I use this for an ad? He goes, yeah, go ahead. And I said, well, let me set you up an affiliate link. He's no, don't bother. I want to see this fly. So I set him up an affiliate link anyways, because I just thought he was so generous. And he's been great about it. I saw him recently at the biohacking conference. He's a lovely guy. He said to me, he said, he said, there's nobody else in our space that's doing what you're doing. He said, I will come visit you and do video with you telling you how the slack block saved me after my knee replacement. So he's just a, I mean, I just think the world of Kelly, I really do. And, um, you know, he's got a business to run.

I understand that, but I just, he's been good to me. And because of that, there's now a certain, you know, the right person has said, yeah, it's okay. It's cool to do. And we get constant, you know, physical therapists. So I had my knee operated on 20 years ago. It's cool to do. And we get constant, you know, physical therapists. So I had my knee operated on 20 years ago. It's been tweaky ever since spent, you know, a couple of hours on a slack block gone, or, you know, it's just, these kinds of stories are coming through all the time and they're hard to relate because honestly, most of them sound like bullshit. I mean, I got, was on line with a physical, a Finnish physical therapist. No, he was in Austria and he was from Scotland, Austria, Scottish physical therapists in Austria working with runners. And he said they had a kid

that had post-operation of some sort and they'd been working with him for months and they couldn't get rid of the pain. He said the kid got on the slack block one day and the next day he walked in, he said, pain's gone. And so we know why these things are happening. It's just so far outside of the research literature and the PhD thinking that just people look at you and just go, well. Nothing about it doesn't make sense. Oh, it's to a person like yourself, but to many in the world of academia and beyond, like, where's your research? Which bothers me anyway, as people go, where's your research? And I had some PhD say that to me one day and she was on a national team.

I said, you're going to go work out this afternoon? She said, yeah. I said, can I come watch you? She said, sure. I said, would you do me a favor? I said, would you give me two uh reference to research references to everything you do yeah yeah that was that was the end of the conversation because there's very little that says do this and it's going to improve your athletic performance i'll tell you and guarantee you do

this it's going to improve your athletic performance many years ago i think i was at the university of omaha or university of nebraska i can't remember one of the big schools and i was in there. They had a strength and conditioning coach named Joe Westerlin, who's now one of the CrossFit seminar staff. And he was talking to me about the girls' soccer team and how every single one of them had this scar down their leg and they had surgery. And he goes, do you know what that's from? And I go, I don't know. Wearing cleats and pivoting. He goes, no, that's from people putting shoes on their kids, kids losing ankle flexion and the knee and hip immediately trying to compensate for. He says it's the stupidest thing ever.

He said, as soon as you reduce the range of motion down there, the rest of the body, the back, the knees that I bet you all those injuries, the vast majority. And I was like, holy shit. Yeah, yeah. said i bet you all those injuries the vast majority of them and i was like holy shit yeah yeah and then and then now everywhere i look i see kids wearing rain boots but in my kids tennis class i'm like what or or when i see high tops i cringe on kids i'm like what or any shoes actually yeah my kids never wore shoes i'm like wow so i i go to the zero shoes shows now with them because you would bring slack locks and they people go tell us about the shoe and the shoe has no structure no toe lift no heel do you wear those oh all the time yeah yeah so you know they're basically flat right and those are pretty they can do this there's no lifts on the heel there's no lift on the toe so we just have people i think all the shoe balance

tests on the slack block and i go okay leave one shoe on and then put on one of their shoes, get on the slack block. And I mean, the person after person will go, holy shit, what a difference. And you'll see people come in what you're talking about. Not only that shoes are so squishy that they have no foot strength. So then it continues to go like this, get worse and worse and worse. And you know, the great thing about zero shoes is they do basically what our product does to a certain extent they don't improve your balance as much but they do improve foot strength and when you get on the slack box and you'll find this as time goes on you improve your foot strength and we would have people come in to train and they go on the slack bow or the slack box and they'd have their clunky shoes on and

they go shoes on shoes off i said well let's keep mine see what happens and they get up on the slack bow and then after about a minute or less they'd go god my feet are killing me and i go because your feet are trying to do all of this to help you out and nothing's happening so it just keeps working working working working working and not getting any feedback or not getting any impact through the phone. Take your shoes off, take your socks off. Boom. Two seconds later, I said, no more foot pain. And people don't realize your feet are working like crazy through those mushy shoes and nothing's happening.

So you're actually building strength in all these different positions that have no value to you because there's no impact. There's no effect coming back from moving your foot. Do you know about this product called the one wheel yeah i do for sure my my kid when i bought it for him weighed under 50 pounds and he couldn't activate the plates so i took it so i took his shoes off right probably i'm gonna get in trouble for that because i mean because you go fast on it if you crash with no right so so he wrote it for a year with no shoes. And then I started – one day I'm like, I'm going to try this thing.

And, man, riding that – and when he rides barefoot, he can activate the plates, right? Because the weight's not spread out all over the bottom of the shoe, and he's just shy of being heavy enough. So he knows how to press it like with digits in the heel or the great palm so yeah it was fascinating better right yeah and i rode that thing barefoot for 10 minutes and i'm almost always barefoot i'm barefoot more than i have shoes on i rode that thing for 10 minutes and the bottom of my feet were so sore like i had been running in soft sand right and i thought man these types of things have to be explored right well i watched you because again i geeked on you because i didn't know much about you and you invited me and honestly it's an honor to be on here with you because you know listening to many of your podcasts and watching some of your

things on instagram i mean it's just it's an honor that you asked to talk to me dude so i watched you do uh some sort of overhead lift and you could see your feet pretty well and you were on the front and then you went because you went stacked and you you finished off on the back your heels on the outside of your foot and there's really nothing that happens on your heels on the outside of your foot there's no moving tissue there but we get there because we like to when we lift a weight we want to get stacked what i mean stacked is it we move to this again how do you do that how do you switch your camera so easily like that what i got i got i can show you my whole setup so this is my i need that here thing um

so stacked is you got all the bones are stacked on top of each other right yeah so that that works great now you were to push me i'm just going to go over like a log. But, you know, we're always trying to do everything in a dynamic athletic position. His weight's on the big toe, knees are bent, ass is slightly stuck out, and I'm not bending at the waist, I'm bending at the hip, and hands are here. So if I drop down, I'm kind of in that same relative position. It just collapses all the way down. So, you know, if i see somebody lifting i

would say lift if you can staying in this position because this is your movement position as opposed to this so even when i see people lifting up the bags they lift and they get to this stiff position that friend of mine recently was yeah we're not i think 80 percent uh or uh somewhere between 60 and 80 percent heel and 20 to 40 in the toes and you're saying you you don't like that well i mean i'll give you an example a friend of mine who i ski with recently called me and he lives in uh white cough new jersey and he's got a backyard and all that kind of stuff and he goes he goes man he says you know i've been moving these big boulders around in my backyard and i've had sciatica for like a couple of years.

And now my sciatica is gone. He said, lifting is good. I go, dude, it wasn't lifting that did that for you. He goes, what was it? I said, you've been lifting a gym for years, right? Yeah. So what makes you think lifting boulders is different than lifting a gym? I said, you're doing severe heavy duty balance training. He said, what do you mean? I said, you pick up a boulder and you got to walk around your yard and step over stuff and climb up walls and do all that kind of crap. That's balance training. So if you want to lift, go do something challenging outside. I just don't think lifting and balance training should be done together, but people always want to do it. They want to get on a slack block and do some sort of heavy lifting but if you want to lift lift and then go do balance training afterwards what we'll do is i'm sorry i keep doing this to you i don't make you no i love it i love

it i feel like you're showing off i love it um you know we're watching mr rogers as a kid like you walked into the other room and you're gonna and you're gonna show me how to tie a tie now or something you're gonna put your shoes on and and i'll give and because of the wall i'll tell you a joke afterwards um but you know if you get on here and you just oh mom this is just 10 pounds i think just get up here and you're like okay this is easy and then like a minute in you're like oh shit this is not so easy you know because i've now got something that's changed my center of gravity i can switch the other hand changed my center of gravity. I can switch the other hand, change my center of gravity. So these things, they add a lot in terms to adding to the balance challenge, but it's not really building muscle.

And building muscle is kind of an interesting thing. We have a gym in California now who says that building muscle is the second thing that they do. They believe the first thing they need to do is to, you know build up all the stabilizers build up all the mini muscles in the body and then lifting gets better and we get reports just who was it that was reporting this maybe it's the same gym in downtown san francisco so i guess they train all the cool kids but um he said that their lifters are coming in and saying after the balance train that they're able to lift more. And I know why. He said the curious one, though, is that we have cyclists who train indoors and are measuring the wattage output and so forth.

He said they're saying they're getting increased wattage after they've been balance training for a while. He said this is just so bizarre. And I said, I think what happens, and we've seen this when we did our test. He said, this is just so bizarre. And I said, I think what happens, and we've seen this when we did our test. Our initial test was on vertical leap because it was really the only thing we felt was a halfway valid test of coordination. And after 120 minutes, 10 sessions, everybody increased to vertical leap by over 10%. Yeah, that's incredible. Except one guy.

Except one guy who just, his was massively high to begin with, almost world record. He only gained 8%. That's incredible, isn't it? Yeah, but it was interesting to watch them jump because they were just much more fluid and athletic afterwards. And so to me, somehow when you activate, and to me it's a software system. It's a mystery. Nobody knows. It's a mystery what happens. Cause if I train you, you get better so quickly. It's not from

increased muscle size because you can't increase muscles that quickly. And it's not from some sort of improvement in skill level. I mean, if you try to teach somebody a new skill, like hitting a tennis racket and a tennis ball or a golf ball, it takes a while. Your improvement in balance is really rapid and the outcomes from it are really rapid. So to me, it's just like some sort of software system gets rewired and that rewiring of that software also affects all the other muscles in the body and makes them work more efficiently. I think it's a metaphor. Somebody's going to call me up and contact me and say, where's your research?

There's no research. Leave me alone. They're crazy. they're crazy taking a shower makes you feel better where's your research i don't care you just shut your we'll get we'll get ahead of them i want to show you um this oh before i show you this device um so then when it's fascinating that kelly endorsed this that he didn't try to be like, Hey, I'm only going to endorse it if you give me percentage of the company and what it's so, it's so great because there are so many people I've met who are not like that. Yeah, no Kelly's, but don't get me wrong. He, he, he's not big on mentioning my name or my book, which is okay.

Um, but you know, he said he mentioned me in his new book. But that's okay. I mean, I understand that. We all got businesses to run. But he has been exceptionally generous to me, both in time and comments. He's just a lovely guy. He's been great to me. And it turned the corner for your product is what you're saying, basically.

Absolutely, yeah. I knew somebody was going to have to step up at some point in time. Right. I was just, you know, everybody talks about, oh, you've got to do this, do your marketing and that with your marketing. And I've tried, I mean, I've had marketing experts come in and help me. And then after a year, they'll scratch their head and go, I don't know what to do.

And in all new technologies, I mean, I have two quotes on my wall here. Is it, you know, every great new idea starts out as blasphemy, blasphemy. And, you know, to all developers out there that have something new and different, the thing I would tell you to do is, you know, try not to go crazy and just hang in there. It'll come together for you. Um, but you have to hang in there. You kind of have to let the world catch up. So, so in a nutshell, he mentions it. I mean, that's how I found it. He mentions it.

And, um, and then, and then the sales numbers just start going up. Yeah, they did. And then I think, yes,

because he puts his reputation on the line. If he says he likes it and it ends up being ass, he's fucked. No. And then he had his knee replacement shortly thereafter and it was a big part of his whole knee replacement video series so he when i type in your name a knee replacement video with kelly star it pops up and it's because he's got the slack block in it yeah right so i mean he yeah so he's he's been great and i think too like you know we had

one nba team and then we have another nba team and then um i you know i can't mention their name so i just feel bad about it but there's a a team that performed way above their pay grades so to speak last year and they use our product not only they use their product what's important is a lot of people will buy the product and just you know oh here here's a cool way of using your product we have patented the protocol because it's that important to us. And again, you know, Blake's a big part of that, but he did that. But patenting the protocol was important because it means that much. And if you do the protocol properly, it works.

So we have people who want to do pistol squats on them all the time. First thing my kids did. That's fine. By the way, dangerous for adults. My kid wants to ollie on it too. It sits in the garage and he gets on it and treats it like a skateboard immediately. I'm like, you're crazy. Well, it's funny.

My little two-year-old, now four-year-old, who's got great balance, he got on the first. I have it on video. And I have a little one that we have as prototypes so i'm going to send you one for your kids but um he's i would love that by the way i would love that he's on a little prototype one he gets on with two feet point in one direction jumps up does a 180 lands it and i have a slow motion video of it and you can see every movement is perfect movement he hasn't been fucked up yet by adults and shoes and all this other stuff. So it's just interesting. If you watch these kids, your kids, my kid, my grandchildren, they have these beautifully natural movements. And, you know, one thing I've

been watching my two-year-old grandson who I live near here is that he's now in the falling stage of learning to balance. So when we teach balance training, I have to be- How old is he, by the way, when you say he's in the falling stage? He's two and a half. Okay. So I teach, you know, to teach balance training, I have to push you to a limit. Well, your absolute limit's falling, but that's not going to be a good business model, right? So I got to know where you are just before you fall.

And that's a big part, I think, of our technology. So when I train, I can take you to that limit, take you to that limit. And then you're going to progress because I'm pushing you to limits. When kids are young, they fall and don't get injured. This kid is doing stuff all the time, crazy stuff and just falling on the ground. And that's just how he's learning how to balance. And he'll continue to do that for a couple of years. And then at some point, you know, falling gets hurts a little bit more and then he'll do it less and less, but it's just fascinating to watch them improve their balance. And he's, it's just, I don't know. It's great to watch. And I don't know how I got on this subject, but no, it's good. Um, on a completely side note, um, for all the people out there, and I know you guys have heard me say this a thousand times every time your child when i used to walk with my child a

mile every day bare minimum bare minimum starting at 14 months or 15 months whenever he started walking by the way i believe crawling is the holy grail of fitness you should never encourage your kids to walk the second you start walking you're going to walk your whole life do not fucking encourage your kids to walk reward them for great for great crawling. Those things where you stand up and a kid pushes you around the house, fuck that. All that stuff, in my opinion. It's good for the brain. It's good for the shoulders. It's good for the knees, everything. But once my kids started falling, every time you pick your child up from a fall, you have stolen an air squat from your child. And my child would fall 500 times a day, 500. I figured about, um, if I would have picked them up every time I would be stronger and my child would be weaker. And I didn't do not steal the falls from your child. Yeah. This is a device. This company tumble track has been exceedingly generous to me, um,

for, for years with my kids and supporting the growth of my kids and this is was a cheerleading trainer that they have that's supposed to simulate um the cheerleader standing in the um palm of one of the carrier's hands right so like when the guy's holding the girl up oh sure and her foot on hand can you go down to one of the other boxes so i can see it in use? Oh, let's see. On the left hand, on your left hand side. Let me see if there's a picture of. I'll pull up a video here. Let me see if I can pull up or maybe.

Let me see. I think TumbleTrack makes some great products and we have. Oh, you know them. Yeah. Okay. But I haven't seen this. This is great. But basically that, uh, many years ago I asked for that. I'm like, or a couple of years ago I said, Hey, uh, fly right. Um, tumble track. And, uh, this slack block is that kind of on steroids. Right. I mean, because that, that, that, um, that, uh, spring is so,

uh, firm, stiff, stiff. Yeah. But here's something we, if I had cheerleaders and, you know, big time, um, gymnastic coaches come and they, they all want to do this. So they think that... Did I flip to the right one? Yeah. They all want to do this. They get on the block and they want to go...

And, you know, they want to hold everything in that perfect position. And so if I get up there and I rock out my shoulders, just watch what happens. The whole bottom part of my body wiggles. When you get on the balance beam for the first time, you're like, oh, damn. All that quiets down into a real quiet motion. When they're up there holding their arms like this, if they're not locked out, they're moving slightly. You just don't see it.

It's just interesting when you watch cheerleaders and gymnasts train, try to get on the slack bow. I kind of have to detune them, take them out of that, hold everything perfectly still like this because they think that's the right thing to do. Well, when you initially start, you should let everything move and then it will get quiet and then you'll be comfortable holding that position and you'll be moving microscopically but you'll still be moving yeah greg glassman used to say that when you see someone on the slack line and the line's moving that that line that line moving is the noise in their brain well i call it uh i call it neurological confusion i think it's again this is a metaphor so you have these what we're what we're missing i think in the fitness world ought to get there you go i get it yeah sorry to interrupt you so oh let's see let's

go back a little bit and see how i think she jumps up okay yeah i got it i got yeah okay go on sorry so so the noise in the line so So that shaking, that tremoring. So we're, again, controlling and training all little tiny micro muscles. So when someone gets on a slack block for the first time, even great athletes with a slack bow, oftentimes they'll say within 30 seconds, I'm sweating. Why am I sweating? I'm not moving. And it's because these little tiny muscles all over the body that really aren't talked about or discovered are firing all

around your spine, all around all the control mechanisms on your body to hold you in place. They're not the big on-off muscles that you use when you're lifting. And I think that's what happens in the back. You know, you use big on-off muscles that are the big muscles around the back and the arms and the shoulders, but it's the little tiny muscles that hold the spine in place, that hold the knee in place, that hold the shoulder in place. And so when you can activate and motivate to these little tiny muscles to work properly, you will be able to balance better. Now, what happens initially when you get on the line and there's a tremoring, the, I call it sewing machine leg, it's going like this. That's your muscles saying, okay, it's your turn.

No, it's your turn. No, it's your turn. No, it's your turn. And they're out of sync. And it's amazing how we'll get people have wild tremoring. And I always do this to someone as well. Tremoring at the beginning of a session. I said, just relax. And then we go through the session. I go, OK, get back up on the line. And tremor has been reduced by over 50 percent. And I'm like, that's insane. And that's the body working through the solution. And oddly enough, the next time they come in, let's say a day or two later, the tremoring most likely will be all gone. So the body works on the software realignment, even when you're not training anymore. So it doesn't happen just when you're training.

You leave, it continues to operate and improve. And then you get back on the next day and you're like, I'm a lot better than when I left the day before. And that's the body just working that stuff out. It's getting its act together. I mean, it's an amazing system. And, you know, I purposely didn't go get trained in anything in fitness because I didn't want to learn the name of every muscle in Latin. I didn't. I try not to use any Latin word at all because I just think that there's this sense of we know how the body works we don't there's shit that goes on we don't know and i don't i think i mentioned in the book there's neuroreceptors in the lower spine that control gait and motion of the lower part of your body

so it takes data from the lower part of your body manipulates it and sends that data back in terms of movement signals it doesn't even go to your brain and this was just yeah that's like seven years ago. And the researcher who discovered it made a comment in one of the science journals. He goes, they were interviewing him. He said, well, somebody said, I think the interviewer said, that's crazy. He goes, yeah. He said, the great thing is that there's 40,000 neuroscience researchers in the world. And that's because we really don't know what's going on. He said, there wouldn't be that many researchers if we knew everything. But you hear so many people in this industry say, well, it's this, it's that. And that's why they say, why do you call it the balance system? You don't call it the vestibular system, the proprioceptive system. Because it is your

vestibular system. It is your proprioceptive system. It's signaling in the hands. There's great research about balance being affected by your tongue position. I mean, I just think there's so many different, there's a thousand to 2000 receptors on the bottom of your feet. There's just so many things out there that are affecting your balance system. You just can't call it one thing. And that's why I even say, you know, if you're training with your eyes closed, you're just teaching yourself to be a well-balanced blind person. No, your eyes are a huge component. Use them, learn how to use them properly. And once you do, your balance gets better.

Everything else in your life gets better when you can start to operate your balance system and engage all that comes into your eyes. So it's a very complex system, and yet people think they know exactly how it works. They don't. I don't. A couple things here. There's so many examples examples anecdotal examples you're

practicing a piano piece you can't get it you can't get it you can't get it you go to sleep you wake up in the morning and you got it yeah there you go and because your brain doesn't mean i go to bed at night and i'm like who is that slack blow uh slack bow guy what was his name okay when i wake up in the morning it'll be there i don't know how it works but when i wake up it's like jim klotman and you can and i'll do that when i driving. Instead of like forcing myself to think about it, I'll be like, Hey, can you, I'll just talk to my brain. Like it's a person. Hey, can you pull this up for me? I do the same thing. Yeah. And it works. I feel like it works a hundred percent of the time. Does Jim recommend a certain time of day using the Slack block first thing in the morning or

before bed? I don't, I really don't. You know, I used to be real rigid and, you know, do the 12 minute routine three times a week, but I've run into enough people go, yeah, I use it, you know, four minutes a day. And, you know, my golf, I've lowered my handicap by, you know, 30%. So, I mean, I just, I worked with a group in Michigan. They've had slack bows for years and they make it part of their circuit. So this group would only spend maybe a minute to two minutes every day when they ran the circuit. And I thought when I came in to work with them that day that they'd all suck and they hadn't gotten anything over the five years of working on the slack block for a minute to two minutes at a time. I mean, slack bow.

And they were all great. So I was like, well, I guess I don't know. Maybe anytime you want. I i mean just do it is the thing and i think what happens and it's happened to you and it is wonderful to hear you talk about it is once this balance thing gets in your head it's there all the time you're like evaluating every day and i have all sorts of things i do when i go out in public when i ride a train at the airport uh going from one gate to the other, I don't hold on to a thing. I just ride the train.

I'm challenging my balance. I think we want to find common denominators. Don't eat sugar. Work on your balance. Be nice to people. You want to find these common denominators that make your life better. Ride an escalator. It's not going down but going up only. Ride an escalator

and try to stand on one foot. I mean, there's so many things. Walk downstairs and try not to look. Of course, if you're wearing bifogals or glasses that have readers on the bottom, don't do this. But if you're not wearing glasses, you're wearing single vision glasses. Walk down the stairs and try not to look down. It's really hard to train yourself that when you get to that last step, that I know where that last step is. I trust where that last step is and I'll land properly,

but it takes a while not to look down. There's so many things you can do just to work with your balance on a day to day basis. Dude, there's so many people who can't even do the assault runner in my house. Right. They have to hold the side. Yeah. That's tough.

They can't, they can't figure out that like, Hey, just slow down. Chill. Right. Right. It'll come. And even walking back, like I walk backwards on it more than i do forward on it right that's really good too yeah um i'm just completely

be a presumptuous asshole here ready what about a block um that isn't so high that the foam isn't so thick. Yeah. I know you're probably looking there. There is that magic amount of wiggle that and you need a certain amount of foam in order to get the desired stimulus. Oh, my goodness. Here we go. like that? Yes, sir. Okay. And you know, cause that high one, um, we've all wrecked on it, me and my kids, but, but doing things we should not be doing on it.

Like I have been asking him to do just stupid shit on it. And we, we all, there's, there's warnings all over the box. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, God, you know, if you want to sue me, go ahead. Um, cause you can just have the company at that point. My, my, my, my, yeah, I have three little boys and they, you know, when they do all these on it, Go ahead, because you can just have the company at that point. I'll walk away.

Yeah, I have three little boys, and when they do ollies on it, sometimes it turns over on its side. Yeah, and so some people have it roll over. That's why the wings are on there, because initially we didn't have the wings. But the wings are on there to keep it from rolling over, and some people will really try to push it hard in a rollover, but we've never had an ankle sprain with it we have this lower version because we're i'm thinking i'm not sure i want to to work with an older crowd yeah use this and it's a different protocol together and it's a

different market so i would like to see my mom and dad on that one my mom my mom's great shape 79 years old crossfitter but some vertigo issues right i'd love to see her on the lower i'd rather work with her do a zoom session with her first and you know see where she is or even towel i guess right and you recommend the towel all the time well but we do one thing with older people that's this so that we don't ask them to balance on it you know for them we just want them to go step throughs 1001 1002 okay yeah 1001 you can do this barefoot so i mean if you take people who and i think this is fascinating your kids and you won't have a problem but it's amazing how many people can't do this, which when I land, I'm landing with, you know, three to four times

my body weight. How do I control that? Can I, can I leap and land 1,001, 1,002, 1,001, 1,002. You'd be shocked how hard that is for people to do. You'd be shocked. Um, and it's even that they don't like it when I do it. And it and then they go to do it and they can't do it but just simple stuff like that is a good place for them to start and even if your parents looked at that second video that you talked about and did the towels and played around with that they my my sister did it last night she i mean she's a good athlete she passed with flying colors and she's only 55 but yeah great video good i um i took another thing i did is i took the um slack block and i built up a some mats um next to it and i did um this movement called candlesticks and normally

you stand back up but basically a candlestick is i would stand on one foot like this right and i would just squat until my butt touches my calf and then roll on my back and without the slack block i would swing back up and stand back up into a pistol but i just did the negatives with the slack block and i and i really enjoyed that i really really enjoyed that but uh i mean i don't i mean people can do listen if i sell glasses to drink out of i can't tell you to drink water or whiskey you know you can do whatever you want, if I sell glasses to drink out of, I can't tell you to drink water or whiskey. You know, you can do whatever you want with it. But to me, I see people doing this.

And I'm like, well, okay, where are you? You're on your heel with your knees straight. And you're in a position that may be strengthening muscles. But in what functional position are you in? You're basically in a position you're in before you fall on your ass. So good for you. You'll have good balance when you fall on your ass. You know, I want you to be in this. It's the same thing when people do RDLs. They go, oh, look, I can do an RDL. So they bend

over with a big weight and a big cantilever out here. Well, that's not very hard to do because there's no balance challenge with that straight leg and that hand way out there like that. So to me, it's like, where is my balance? Where, how am I moving? Where's my balance? And what am I doing? And how am I balancing in that position? That's all I want to do. I just want to make an athlete better. And then when you move through life, I want you to move like an athlete. We teach people to walk all the time because people are walking like this on their heels,

back with straight legs, and they're wearing out their hips and their knees. Where you have this spring, you have these huge springs that do this all the time. So why not land with some spring and you can watch good athletes. And so watch your kids when they walk, when they're, you know, you got to watch out for that because they'll get into bad walking patterns through the shoes. But if you walk like a badass and an athlete all day long, you don't even have to train, don't train at all. Just move like an athlete and you'll become more athletic.

So to me, when I see, I hear so people, and I have really incredible fit guys and gals doing amazing things in the slack box, squatting down with a 20 pound weight and getting back up in a pistol squat. I'm like, cool, good. Don't say it's bad. Don't say it's bad for you. Don't know what you're training for. But it's not something we focus on. We focus only on movement, athletic balance. And and that's it just want to keep that narrow pipeline right um do you know dr romanoff the pose guy the russian guy out of florida he does pose seminars just you just nailing it also basically he you know he's the guy hey running is about falling forward and catching yourself. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And whoever can lean over the most is going to be the fastest runner in the world. And you basically nailed it. As we all watched our kids grow up, all we did is saw them fall forward and then catch themselves.

And that's how they learned how to walk. I mean, it was pretty cool to watch. I mean, Kyrie Irving is probably one of the most athletic guys in the NBA. There's a video out there of him doing some balance things leaning i i swear he looks like an alien he can lean over so far as like how is he not falling over and it's part of that same thing he's got great great balance so he can do those kinds of things. What would I type in to find that? Oof. Kyrie balance. I don't know. K Y R I E balance. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Okay. Here, let's see.

Let's see if we can see this. I mean, it almost looks like it's been Photoshopped. It's so freaky to be honest with you. Right. Oh, reiki to be honest with you right oh what right are you believing that that's real yeah because he's he's a fluid motion he's up and back he was out there holding it for a long period of time i go bullshit with fluid up and it'll go back what is that it's incredible balance oh my goodness that is fantastic i can't wait to show my kids that we'll find that um there's a direct correlation right oh my goodness it's ridiculous okay go Sorry. There's a direct correlation to the better somebody's balance is the more athletic they are. I mean, we, I think that the reverse has always been true.

I can, if you bring me, um, five of the top receivers in the country, I'll probably tell you the best is just by measuring the balance after a couple of minutes, direct correlation, direct. Okay. Let's bring, let's talk about some controversial shit here ready good i'm sorry i can't do that you you mention and i have to assume you're i don't know the years i wish i had a games expert crossfit games expert on here but you mention i'm trying to find if i can find the video um

you mentioned basically that there's a crossfit games athlete who doesn't do well in the sprint one year and they come back the next year yeah we all know who that is who watched this show it's uh you were obviously referencing matt fraser right exactly yeah and when he when he did the ranch run in 2016 whatever he fucking killed everybody he killed it he won not just by a little bit he won by a ton and you can watch him run through there he just he had balances far exceeded everybody else and he also won um the uh race where you run around the i guess that one there and he placed second where the year before he placed like eighth and his his change of direction was far superior uh after that year

he won far superior so i don't know if he balanced trained but he did something in his training that improved his balance because winning that ranch race like he did was um phenomenal have you asked him do you know no i don't know how to get in contact with but his cod is is is much better in that race as well so what what's cod mean change of direction okay um so yeah no it's to me there was no way he won that ranch race is i mean he he he just he stomped everybody in that race like yeah so you don't think it's just um you don't think he just was training more running or working on his, if he did, then he knew that he,

then he had a, cause that was a really, really tough trail run. That was gnarly as hell. I wasn't just, he said some supplement he takes, gives him a third lung. I don't even remember what it is.

B C a or some, some, something that may be true, but what it is, BCAA or something. That may be true, but it does not matter. The ability to land and continue to move forward on some of the things that he did showed just exceptional balance. If he balanced range, do you think he's going to tell you that? No, no, no, no. That guy does not endorse anything unless he's going to tell you that no no no no that guy that guy does not endorse anything

unless he's getting paid zero i mean listen we i was the first one to bring wicking technology to textiles and and i worked for russell athletic in their team where i ran their teamwear division and you know afterwards i left to work with a chemical company that made the wicking technology and it was amazing technology and we would make athletes play better they would play better they use this product and the sweat would dissipate so quickly their shirt would be dry the whole time and they'd be cooler have more energy because they didn't have to sweat so much cool i need 10 million dollars no we're gonna help you win more yeah i know but i need 10 million dollars uh right so it's just like yeah okay so but so you suspect you you really suspect that there was some balancing

uh absolutely absolutely additive some balance training absolutely yeah absolutely fantastic Absolutely. Fantastic. I love that. Um, uh, here we go. Um, lifting weights on your back is patently stupid. Oh, as soon as you said that, I'm like, man, is this, is this, are you sure? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I saw it slip out of your mouth. That hole in front of your face said it. You've been nice to me for the first hour, and now you're going to rip my throat out. Okay, let's go forward. But I think you're right. I think you're right. Here's the problem with lifting in general. Okay, so I think I watched some of the CrossFit games just last week to prepare for this,

to see if they had integrated anything balance-wise into them, and they hadn't. But they're amazing athletes i mean there's just no getting beyond the fact that what they do is amazing and that they push the human body to places that are just unbelievable to me right um i think that they fit what they do fit today's warrior mentality uh which is if you're a warrior today, you're not really training for hand to hand combat. You're trained to be how quickly can you be a pack mule and move through difficult space with as much food, ammunition and weaponry that you can. And I think that that's super important. So all that being said, a lot of it's based on lift and move,

lift and move. If you were to, but there's a reactive form of muscles that we don't talk much about. You know, we talk about apes and chimps. They're 10 times stronger than we are. So if I can deadlift, if I can deadlift two times my body weight, which is pretty good, if I can deadlift two times my body weight, which is pretty good, maybe if I was really good at two and a half times, that's nice. So for me, that's 340, 360 pounds. But if I drop off of a one-foot box or a 0.3- meter box and land with two feet, I'm hitting the ground with 4.7 times my body weight. I can't lift that well over a thousand pounds. Where are we training for that eccentric load that happens? I don't know if you've ever seen an ARX machine. You know what

they are? It's computer generated load. So you you push out they will max your load pushing out all the way out arx machine yeah arx so i'm i'm pushing out and i'm not sponsored by them but i'm pushing out relative numbers i'm pushing out i think i have numbers here yeah if i'm pushing out with 200 pounds of force and i said that's a max I can push out. And then they'll load the force where I come back in that eccentric load position. Right. And that graphing, this whole thing,

and I'm holding off, holding off, holding off, holding off as much as I can, holding off, holding off. I can push out 200 pounds. And you know what I can hold off?

What? I can hold off 900 pounds. Those are the relative numbers. So to me, that to me is a more important force that we don't train enough for. So when somebody runs and lands, they're landing with probably three to four times their body weight.

They're capturing that energy in those muscles and using that to push them forward. If you watch a great long-distance runner, it's like, what motion did he have to do this with? And this solved a huge problem for me because we do a lot of plyo box work. I'd watch these guys that I don't know where they were from, little tiny guys that they were Asians of some sort that were jumping on plyo boxes that were six inches above and when you

watch them they hardly dropped at all six inches above their head you mean like yes so they just but when they dropped you think that they go all the way down big squat and explode up no they went just like that just a fast drop you know so they somehow picked up that dropping force of four times their body weight, but they only went a little bit down, load down, load it up just a little bit. And we're able to push the energy back up to get them over the top. So to me, it's a force that's missing. And we do a lot of balance training. We do what happens when you land to balance. So how am I absorbing and handling those forces? And this, I think, is just such an important part of anything we do.

And I think a proper punch somehow picks up that force, that you're able to sort of load that force and then go forward with it. So when I think about lifting, I think about have you maximized your, you know, your, your, your reactive forces to this eccentric load and have you maximize your balance and then you can go to lifting. If you look at the top 100 athletes in the ESPN put up of the, of the 20th century, there's only two of them that are ripped. One is Bo Jackson, and he didn't work out. You can watch the 30 for 30.

The fitness trainer at Auburn said, I couldn't get him to work out. He said, I work hard. Herschel Walker said he never touched weights either. He just did push-ups, sit-ups, and pull-ups. Right. And if you do the push-ups and sit-ups correctly, you are using that reactive force. But to me, I understand the reason why weights are lifted. I understand the sport of CrossFit, where it applies to certain athletic things.

I'm not sure. The other thing that I'd have to have you here to show you, but if I, we just do this, everybody I work with, if we take you and just have you do a straight up, like I'm lifting weights, just fake the motion up, you know, two arms, uh, was it bilateral movement? And then we do a little test and test your coordination. You lose coordination with that movement. Now, if we take that same set of weights and we just have you crossing the body, you notice my whole body's getting engaged with that crossing the weight over my body yeah this is just my arm see see how my

legs are getting engaged you lose coordination you lose coordination when you do just bilateral movement yes and i ran it and i ran into this when i'd have athletes come in the train with me and they would um suck from the previous time i'd be like what is going on you up late last night are you drunk what have you done that screwed up your balance i know i don't know i just you know i worked out just an hour ago and then it finally dawned on me these bilateral movements because there is in nature when you play a sport there is no bilateral movement there's nothing you do when you play sport where you're using two limbs at the same time. Nothing.

I've had a football coach argue with me one day. He says, well, if you're a lineman, you are. No, I'm not. If I'm a lineman, if I'm pushing you, I'm pushing you from this position. I've got my hips turned. I'm not pushing you like this. And we have sled drills that we do that include balance. And you'd be shocked that, you know, somebody pushes a sled a certain distance.

They're going to get a certain level of exhaustion. If you add a balance component to that sled movement, their exhaustion is much higher and happens much quicker because it takes a lot more to push something and stay in balance. And it does just to push something and not have to worry about your balance. stay in balance than it does just to push something and not have to worry about your balance. So, again, when I see bilateral movement, single, you know, single lever sort of movement, it's not necessarily good for you. It makes you stronger, it makes you better looking, but I don't know. What other horrible thing did I say that you're going to throw back in my face? No, I like it.

But just to, and you don't like the idea of just wait on the back period. It's your fucking, like, is it part of you? Like, dude, it's your fucking spine. What are you doing? You need that. No, that's not it. I mean, you know, I think the rucksack guys are interesting. Yeah.

I see nothing wrong with that. I carried my two-year-old. We have a backpack for him. I carried him around yesterday. It's a workout. It's good for you. Don't get me wrong. I don't think it's bad for you.

Do you have a two, you have a two-year-old or do you have a grandchild? No, no. I mean my grandson. Oh, God. I would have elevated you to an 11 if you had your own two-year-old. I'd love to have more kids, but I promised my daughters that I would not create any aunts and uncles that are younger than their kids. God, there's so much to open up. I can't talk to talk to you anymore though i have to go to the skate park oh what's that go ahead i have to go to the skate park oh okay but man this is so good i so would you come on again oh yeah absolutely yeah and i'll take fire away at me i enjoy that

i really do and i appreciate you saying that so okay i mean because we need to talk about just a barefoot living we need to talk about uh 85 of uh of people's mri show that their backs need operation on what it's like um you have i want to talk to you more about the business model you have seven students that you've shared the patent with on your on your slack bow if that's true like you've got to be the nicest man in the world yeah i did entrepreneurs are supposed to be assholes you're totally off the mark um you didn't start that's a counterbalance my assholeness is why i do that you didn't start the slack link till you were 55 that sounds dangerous i hope your insurance

company charges you out the wazoo for it. Falls from deaths have increased, have doubled from 2000 to 2013. Yeah, and they're still going up, by the way. I just checked recently. They're not going up. Worldwide, they're going up. So it's, you know, cancer and heart disease, deaths from cancer and heart disease are going down because medicine's getting better. But, of course, I don't know, last two years with COVID, but falls but falls from, uh, those numbers are going up every year. They're not going down. So it's, it's a modern man's disease. As the world becomes more modern and more people get to middle-class, the more of them are falling and getting injured. And this is per capita. This is not a gross numbers. Um, people can just go online. There are so many videos for free and you can start the protocol today. You do not need to buy anything. the thing if you start watching this guy's videos it's almost kind of hard to find

what he's selling because he shows you how to use towels how to do standing exercises and the block is kind of an afterthought but if you're like me i love having the block in my garage and it's just become part of the daily protocol for everyone so thank you thank you um jim klompman did i say it right yep all right i will uh i'll be in touch i'll let this uh percolate um if you ever want to come back on and talk about anything please reach out if not uh i'll probably reach back out to you in six months anyway yep please do and you know as we get these other products I'll send them to you

for you to you know we actually have kid sized stuff that I didn't show you today that your kids would enjoy and I'll talk to you more about it offline but we've got other things that you guys with your I didn't know you had those kids were such superstar athletes so that was great to see they're everything to me all right brother i will talk to you soon you have my phone number i don't sleep by my phone so you can text me 24 hours a day if you

wake up three in the morning you're like i should have said this to this guy text away i'm the king of texting okay all right cool thanks now i i think i need to change my schedule i want to talk All right, Josh Park skating. Maybe if I just type in Josh Park skating, it'll pop up. He has a pretty big YouTube following. He's got a huge instructional. Meet Josh. Oh, here he is. Oh, that's Josh

Balo. B-A-L-O-G-H. B-A L-O-G-H. How come I can't find him? Skater Spotlight. Damn, when you type in his name, his YouTube doesn't pop up. He's got this huge YouTube channel.

Over 70,000 subscribers, hundreds of skateboarding videos. You can just hit play and put your kids in front of it, and they'll just be enthralled with it. Let me see if I click here. of skateboarding videos you can just hit play and put your kids in front of it and and and they'll just be enthralled with it let me see if i click here oh pro secrets and tutorials oh here it is here it is here it is uh share screen so it's skate park lessons 66 400 subscribers and look at all these videos it's just crazy instructional content anyway that's where i'm headed if you're wondering now um i hope you guys enjoyed that uh i was crazy excited to have him on. It was just an accident.

I stumbled upon him. Of course, I saw it on Kelly's Instagram or a newsletter Kelly sent out. And I was like, oh, I got to talk to this dude. Okay. Thanks. Tomorrow. Oh, tomorrow's Friday. I'm trying to, believe it or not, get...

Oh, here I come. Let me tell my wife, here I come. Oh, shit. Battery in my van just died. Shit. I'm trying to get... Even though Matt Sousa's on his honeymoon, I'm trying to get Matt to come on and do a live call-in show.

Even though I told him I'd leave him alone for two weeks. I cannot, I cannot. So, uh, either me, him or Caleb will be doing a live call-in show. I'm trying to schedule a,

a Hiller fit review with Andrew Hiller. And, I will talk to all you guys soon. You guys are the best. Bye.