The Sevan Podcast - #683 - CrossFit Uprising / Jason Tomlinson, CrossFit Affiliate Series

Episode Date: November 26, 2022

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I'm good. It's a good life. It's a good life. Jason Tom Linson. People call him Tom Olson. Most people do. Tom Linson. People like call him Tom Olson. Most people do. Tom Linson. Caleb, what's up with your shirt, dude?

Party shirt. You packed that in your suitcase and then deployed with that? No, we got a package of nice shirts from a company and they just sent them all out to us. So we just got it and everybody put them on for the day. And so you felt obligated to wear it? Yeah, sure. I guess if everyone's wearing it, it's okay.

Exactly. My non-Hispanic wife attempted tacos de lingua. I think that's like tongue, right? Last night for Thanksgiving dinner for the first time and killed it. Don't think I can ever enjoy ground beef tacos taco as much again you like the tongue huh all right okay i guess you ever had a you ever had a tongue taco jason no not a tongue taco i had actually had a beef tongue for the first time a couple months ago though how was it um it's the texture's a little off for me it's a little too soft mushy

or are you trying like organ meats is that why someone's like no um we had a we have a some family friends that own a beef farm um and they had had this cow that had fell and broke her hip and they gave us the tongue to it to try because my wife had always said it would have been a good thing to have so what a tough life a farm animal you fall down and next thing you know someone's eating your tongue goodbye yeah what state are you in uh ohio and the name of the gym that had its grand opening on september 3rd of which you are the proud owner of is crossfit uprising yes sir congratulations thank you yeah wow and and this is uh september 3rd so it's brand new yes it is i could start with just something big and crazy and just be like why'd you open a crossfit gym i i someone someone sent me a dm and're like, hey, you got to have this dude on.

So I just sent you a DM and I said, hey, would you like to come on the show? And then you wrote back, sure. How come? Is it because of my story? And I wrote back, yeah. But I didn't even know your story. I was just like, yeah. The person that did it, I didn't even know your story. I just, I was just like, yeah. The person that did it, I didn't know it had happened. So what happened was I, you started,

you followed me on Instagram and I was like, well, that's weird. Like why would Siobhan follow me? Like that's, that's cool and all, but so I put my phone down, went on my day and I got up the next morning and I opened my phone up and open Instagram. And I was like, it popped up on the tag and it said, hey, I'd like to have you on the podcast. Dude, I threw my phone on the couch. I just threw it down. I was like, I'm done. What was that? No, you do not want me on your podcast. Right. And open it back up. And it was you. And I was like, sure. Um, I'd be honored to like, why? Like, is it, is it my story? What is it at that point in time? I didn't know that Angie, the lady that DMG about it, um, had sent it to you.

I was, she remember at your gym. Yes, she is. And a very good friend. They're my, my, uh, kind of, they're my marketing team. So, So then I thought, well, I invited this guy on based on a recommendation and I better find out the story. And I went and listened to your story and, and the guys who interviewed you, one of them keeps saying, or he says a handful of times throughout the podcast, he man this is like a netflix movie and i was like wow that i mean it really it's better than a netflix movie and then you started you started

to write it you talk about how you started to write a book did you stop doing that yeah i did Yeah, I did. For now. So when I got to writing and then I got to reading my own writing, all I kept thinking was like, I'm a really boring writer. I can tell you a story. That's fine. But putting it on paper doesn't, from my view, looking at it doesn't give the same emotion as what I can give you if I talk to you about it. So, um, so I stopped writing and I was sitting around moping one day about it. And my wife was like, um, what's wrong? And I'm like, I'm just feel like I'm not doing anything. Like I'm just floating through life. And she's like, what do you want to do? And I was like, you know what I want to do. I said, it's the same thing I've always wanted to do since I found it. And she goes, don't tie it into our personal life. And she goes, just go do it. And that was, what is, and that's, what does that mean? Don't tie it into our personal life.

Um, keep everything separate. Like, so don't take out a loan based on our house and kind of just making an LLC. Right. So, and, and keep it separated. So, so I went and I started talking to a few people and, um, I was one to just honestly, cause I've never been other than like way in the past and my being from my past story, um, been in the, been in a business. Um, I was, went and talked to a few people about opening a business and just kind of mentor me through a business. And, uh, I went and talked to the guy that ran the podcast, Corey Gregory, um, about mentoring me. And he was like, yeah, I'd love to. Um, and then I have another, a real good friend that i met through cory that owns another company

locally um jake and he i next morning i woke up and i was sitting at the house and cory was like um hey i want to be a part of this i want to i want to help you um how much money do you need wow so he kind of doubled down not only mentor but yeah so so and you don't you don't have a long life of people believing in you uh no i've i've burned a lot of those bridges a long time ago like it i did that right a long time ago i uh i burnt a lot of bridges growing up so are your parents still alive um yeah they are actually no shit do you still see them um i talked to my dad he's in uh mississippi um i haven't talked to my mom in probably 13 years so wow wow wow uh you guys uh hold on to your seats this is going to be a wild one this is going to be so fun for some of us i don't know

if it's going to be fun for jason but and and uh and you you have been competing at not only did you open a crossfit gym but you're 46 years old you're 46 now 47 as of yesterday oh awesome happy birthday thank you and and you have um not only aspirations to be the world's fittest man, but you've taken some pretty heavy swings at it already. Yeah. And are you and Jason Grubb and Sean Ramirez's? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I competed against Jason down in Arizona when Legends was in Arizona in Phoenix two years ago.

Which was the first time I met him when he was, we were both in the age group at the first end of the age group at the same time. And then, um, I met Sean just a couple, what a month ago at master's fitness collective. Um, and what, what was your first impression of Jason grub? Super nice guy. I like Jason, me and him get along. We text a lot, not a lot, I guess, but we text some, um, message a few times. So I like Jason. We text a lot. Not a lot, I guess, but we text some message a few times. So I like Jason. He's super nice.

Super nice, right? Man, that is a star-studded group you're with. That's going to be a war. And then the goal this year is to go to the games? It has been the last couple. Like two years ago was probably my best shot um and i ended up 36th um then last year i caught a major um in the quarters and dropped me out of the out of the semis into 40th what does that mean caught a major uh major penalty and the

overhead the overhead squat oh that was with the the wad, the overhead squat and the lunge wad. What was the penalty? What was the penalty? What were they critical of? A lack of hip extension on it, on the overhead squat. And when you watched it, were you like, yeah, or were you like, no, no, I was like, no. And I had a bunch of people tell me the same thing that no, the only thing we could come up with was you really couldn't see because I had black shorts on, on a black wall. Okay. So the clothing issue, I think that,

you know, that's been coming out about it. And are you injury free? Injury free now. Yes. Aches and pains from just being old and playing hard. No. Yeah.

I had injured myself at the monster games out in joplin missouri a couple months ago um land in a box jump i'd hurt my foot um but it's all back to normal now so it's what what a what a crazy place uh you've put yourself in so you you're running this gym that just opened. Do you have members already? Yeah. Wow. Congratulations. Thank you.

And what's the name of the city you're in in Ohio? Newark. It's about 20, 25 minutes east of Columbus. And why open a um why open a crossfit gym why didn't you just open a regular gym why not just cross why did it call uprising um few reasons um one is i just i could never explain what crossfit's given to me like. Like it's given me and it's given me a whole new outlook on life. A whole new way of looking at things. A way of, it's the way of giving back, I guess.

When I took so much when I was younger. And obviously it's from the business side of it. It's easy. It's easier to market with the name CrossFit instead of just fighting around it. But I believe in it. Like I believe in the things that it does. How long after you got out of prison did you take your level one um see i got out in 2004 and i've been so probably about eight years so 2012 yeah 2012 actually i think it was 2000 it

was march of 2012 crazy crazy crazy crazy and do you remember who your uh instructors were yeah i sure do who are they austin maliolo um he he spent some time i think in juvenile detention centers daddy yeah different different he got out before you did out of the business but um but i think he had a pretty wild yeah i think basically they came and got him at his house threw him in a van and hauled his ass off i think maybe i don't remember the exact story maybe his dad even called him on him crazy and and who else do you remember who else was um the guy that don't doug chapman oh known as hyperfit yeah that guy's smart as shit he was there? The guy that owned, Doug Chapman. Oh. Owns Hyperfit.

Yeah, that guy's smart as shit. He was there. I can't remember. Is it Joe that used to own Omaha? Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow. God. Yeah. Joe Westerlin. Yeah, Westerlin. Yep. Oh, he's cool as shit too. Wow. You had good dudes.

Yeah. And Lindsey Smith. Okay. Oh, wow. And Chuck was our Flowmaster, master i think at that point in time we're just starting to become the flow master holy cow so you had a star-studded staff i think maybe lindsey was even a games athlete at that point in time at that point yep wow and uh and blew your mind loved it oh yeah loved it i i was hooked. I took my first class in December 2011 and told the guy that he was the owner of the old gym that I'd went to, told him I'll be back. I went back in January and I've never looked back since. By March, I had my L1. By the end of March, I was coaching and I've coached or competed ever since. Where were you born? Ironton, Ohio.

Okay. So you've always been a – Ohio's home. It's home, yeah. By the time I was five, I had lived in like 15 different states. With your mom? With my mom and dad. Yeah. How is that? How do you live in 15 different states? My dad worked for a company that built the great big steel transmission lines that comes out of power plants.

Okay. So we moved around a lot. A lot. lines that comes out of power plants okay um so we moved around a lot a lot so those big steel towers you see that connect all the big lines like if you're driving around california you're like out in the middle of nowhere and those big ones that are carrying it just hundreds of miles he built those yes sir wow is your relationship with your dad still good yeah it is now yeah rough childhood even up to five like already um no my childhood up to five other than moving around from the things that flashes that i remember um

was normal um i remember i remember some like i remember certain kindergartens um i remember tying my shoe for the first time being with my dad in his truck. Um, it seemed normal, but shortly thereafter it wasn't. So, and when you're five and you move that much, I guess you don't have a lot of, you don't have any stability and you don't really have any possessions. All your shit fits in like a paper bag. Our house was actually a, uh, your shit fits in like a paper bag our house was actually a uh is actually like a 14 by 60 or 70 mobile home okay it moved with us so i mean the only thing stable in my life really was my home so uh you guys do it different than we do in california why did this guy go to jail well funny you should ask funny you should ask so he could so he could be he

just was looking for a place to work out with other strong guys he just needed some alone time to dedicate yeah that's what it was strong uh and then at five did you finally land somewhere where you were gonna stay um so my next memory that i have was we were sitting in a truck and my, uh, my grandma and grandpa's on my mom's side, um, their driveway. And I can remember my mom saying that my dad had to go away for a while and that we wouldn't see him. Um, and like, there's flashes of memories of like, we lived at my grandma and grandpa's house until our trailer got moved to

town. And then I flashes of like living in that trailer and going to school. And, but from that point on, yeah, from that point on, I, now that I know the story, I know that they were separated and they ended up in divorce. Now that I know the story, I know that they were separated and they ended up in divorce. But like now looking back, this is where we stayed. So do you have siblings?

Oh, yeah. I have one younger sister. She's like two years younger than me. And are you in contact with her? No. Did she did she end up taking the same path you did? No, she did not. Oh, wow. How come you're not in contact with her?

We were when I first got out. But I wasted enough of my life. Um, my sister tends to be about, unless it's about her, um, then, and centers around her, then it's not going to, no one else can be included. So, okay. Maybe she's in protection mode. She's protecting herself. She could be, I don't know. Um, she was, we never had a problem growing up.

Like we weren't the fighty type siblings or nothing. I mean, I was gone a lot. Um, and then I think my mom helped protect her a lot by sending her to my, like, she stayed that if we're leading to where I think we're leading the summer that things went really bad.

Um, she was staying with my aunt and uncle a lot during that summer. So like, I think my mom, my mom got her out a lot. So she wasn't at home when all the bad shit was going on. So there's the theme in my show where I talk about that no matter how good of a person you are, if you don't keep young men busy, they will get into trouble. You really, really have to keep young men busy. If you are neglecting, if you have boys and you are not keeping them busy from the second they wake up to the second they go to bed, you are asking for trouble.

You are rolling the dice. pretty wild uh it's actually just the status quo of young men who all over the world who don't get um who don't who don't have someone who's looking out for them and keeping them busy and some people are gonna be like well people need their free time yeah then keep them busy with free time but you cannot leave young men to their own accord we're not we're not made for we're not made for that that old saying of you know idle mind is the devil's playground is true it really is yeah yeah yeah and where this where this all leads everything that led up to me going and going to prison was like once you get there you really realize it like because there's a lot of downtime in prison a lot and probably all your

homeboys there all had the same story too right a lot yeah a lot of downtime in prison, a lot. And probably all your homeboys there all had the same story too, right? A lot. Yeah. A lot of them are along the lines. Like you can meet a few people. Like I've had a few friends that were in there that like, it was like their first crime, their first bad thing they ever did. And like, they'd never had a bad childhood.

They, they, everything was perfect and they committed one crime, you know, but like that's few and far between. A lot of them, they you grew up in the bad in the bad household, abusive household with the wrong with not even the wrong friends, but you grew up in the wrong group of people. And that's where you end up. even my my buddy uh has um two one of my buddies has two sons and they're like the two best quarterbacks in the country right now one in high school and one in college nice and i asked him just the other day i said how are you keeping them away from like smoking weed and doing all that stuff he's like dude even my my son who's in college who's a senior after the game i just bring him home and he's a big savage man juiced up dude just fucking 300 pound professional arm wrestler you know what i mean juice to the gills and like i just put the hammer

down on him yeah like fuck you you're staying home well i mean it's we like that's in west virginia which i think is very similar to uh ohio it's it's hairy as shit yes it is it's expect and there's a lot like because a lot of west virginia is rural like really rural so like there's a lot more not saying a lot more but there is a lot that goes on so and it's that same kind of living it's it's the trailer park living it's the it's the you know the either the parents are at work or in trouble or in jail or on drugs or my particular friend his mom has been working at it like a 7-eleven for 30 years you know what i mean yeah so so um so you're you're five and were either your parents into into drugs no no not that i know of not that i know of like Not that I know of. Like there's been, there's been no stories. Like

my dad had this, like, he actually lied on his, uh, application to get the job, to get a job at the same company that his dad worked at for his whole life. Um, he was 17. He said he was 18. He took that job. And my dad went from being a grunt laborer to being one of the most important people within that company. Right. So like, my dad's always been this like top-notch standup human being. I'm not saying there isn't fault. Obviously we all have them, but like, and my mom, up until like, I grew up and realized that my mom didn't have my, my best interest in mind. Like my mom was always, was there, right. For a while.

And then as I grow up, I realized that she really wasn't so but as far as i know they were you know they know when nobody i'm the first in the line to to call this what it is to do what i've done so no it would the jail story we will get to it easy everyone settle down this is this is like we have to really contextualize this at first we have to lay some soil down this is not uh he robbed a store and went to jail this is not like this is complete uh this is a party uh and um when you said your mom didn't have your best interest in mind paint that childhood for me i'm getting that feeling that your dad was basically a workaholic like a lot of our parents were um so i know that me and him have talked since and you know he he's explained to me a lot of it like my dad is still

super stand up he you know he still has talks to me at time about my mom like to make try to help me understand that like look in the end that's still your mother regardless of what she's done or anything else and when when things come to an end, like that's still your mom. Um, he has no ill will towards her anything. Um, my mom ended up, my mom ended up cheating on him is what happened. And he caught her. Um, and like, my dad was all about like, back in the day, it was all about the man takes care of going to work and the woman takes care of the household. Right. And then he is always there for, you know, you're always there at the end of the day for him when he gets home from work. So like that, that old school, this is, you know, the way it is. We've talked about it some. So, um, that's, I think, I don't know if that's why my mom did it. I have no idea. I don't know. So, um, which is what led us to that park, that driveway talk that day, right? That driveway talk of, hey, my dad's going away for a while.

And five years old, six years old, and doing nothing but bawling my eyes out because I'm going to miss my dad. When that happened, how long was it before you saw him again? Did you still see him on weekends or there was actually he went away? I probably didn't see him again for probably until I was a freshman in high school. Holy shit. You have a 13 year old daughter. Yes, I do. What's the longest you've gone without seeing her? Um, three weeks. Holy. She went to camp or something? She was actually, no, she stayed at my, she stayed at my dad and stepmom's house in Mississippi one time for three weeks. Wow. Just because you wanted her to get to know your dad or.

Yeah, I think they wanted her to stay. There she is. They wanted her to stay. I know they're my dad is like my dad's really and her really and Suzette are really family oriented. So Suzette's your stepmom. Yeah, she's my stepmom. So like and she wanted to stay maggie wanted to go down and stay so so it was cool so i talked to her almost every day though like we facetimed before bed and everything i i couldn't imagine it i just i couldn't and i know

not all that was his fault i do now talking to him and other people um that majority of that was my mom keeping him away from me crazy uh um and you're what's that called is your daughter is it 3m or 4m what's that thing we don't have that 4h 4h 4h that's basically where like you get kids into taking care of farm animals at a young age she does that she loves it she's actually awesome ever since she's been little enough to talk she's always talked about she just wanted to be a veterinarian so she has never changed that thought at all and your your current wife's name is kathy carrie carrie yeah And that's the baby.

And that's your, your guys' offspring. Yes. Holy shit. Wow. You've really, uh, and you got out of jail in 2004. Yeah. So you had, you made the baby once you were out. You didn't make it.

Yeah. It was actually a point where neither one of us wanted kids. Sure. And like, we were like, look, we're, I have wasted 10 years of my life and like let's just be us and then one day we look she'll blame it on me um one day I was like I was like hey I think I'd like to have a kid what about you she's like sure so we tried and six months later she was pregnant so and and uh and and now you wouldn't have it any other way. No, not at all. Isn't it kind of crazy. Did you feel like a lot of your shit just kind of went away because you

just, all of a sudden someone was so much more important to you in your life than you were to yourself? Yeah. Yeah. It's things change. Things change a lot. Um, things changed before I got out having my wife. Um, and then having a daughter, things changed a lot too, again, like somebody else that you, that you really like you're responsible for. So you're, you're, you're, there's this, a Taoist saying, stop thinking and all your problems will, will end. And it's, it's so true. And there are these, you know, there's a lot of questions you can ask yourself when you have bad thoughts, who would I be without this thought? But man, when you have a kid and you, and you have your priorities straight, man, you get a lot of freedom. People think that, uh,

it's kind of scary for people because a lot of people don't want to have kids because they can't imagine because, and they'll admit, admit to themselves, but I'm so selfish. Yeah. But then you have a kid and if you're wired properly, like I think the way we're supposed to be, all that shit just kind of goes away. You didn't even give a shit if i got a shower today and a workout i'm good right i mean it's like yeah right yeah um so you're five years old and your dad leaves and the way the story picked up that i heard on the other podcast is you basically around the age of 13, you became a cook. You started cooking. That's an interesting way of putting it, I guess.

You became – I watched too much Breaking Bad. You started cooking crack. Yeah. So were you – can you tell me, fill in that gap there from when you were 5 to when you were 13, how you got those skills? My mom remarried. Remarried a great guy. Like his name was Daryl and he was awesome. Like he took care of us. Like we were his own. Um, he were, he worked driving truck, um, for a local oil company. So he was home a lot, um, was around a lot. So ended up getting me into BMX racing. racing um like i had this felt like a normal

childhood to me um like i didn't have no complaints i wasn't abused they didn't drink like it was well taken care of um your mom loved you your mom loved you good i think so i mean i've never felt any different up until what's come about. You remember being hugged and kissed and held and tucked in at night and all? You do remember all that? Yep. Sure do. So, like, it just seemed like looking back on it, it seems so what people call your normal

American family life, right? It never seemed any different. What BMX bike did you have? A GT. Oh, wow. Cool bike. Yep. And not cheap. No, it was, it's funny. Like I look back on things and I realized we had a, there was a bike, a bike shop in the town that I lived in, um, who was helping to sponsor me to race. Um, and, um, I remember they ordered that bike straight from Santa Monica or Santa Ana. I mean, out of the GT factory, um, for me in particular, um, that thing was like $586.

Yeah. Those are, I had a, I had a Mongoose. It was like a heavy Chrome frame, but the kids who had GTs, those were kind of the cooler kids. Yeah. Yeah. My bike at the end, when I was racing, ended up weighing, it was only weighed like 16 pounds. So it was super light. And then, and then tell me how you meet these guys who, who teach you how to cook crack. Like, can you walk me into that? Well, my mom ended up divorcing daryl uh-huh cheated on him um okay divorced daryl and end up marrying another guy named bob um did she have more kids with these guys no no not just us so um bob claimed to be a preacher um like it like a dude like who like knows about god and stuff

yeah that guy okay um she meets him um and we end up everything seemed okay in the beginning um just another guy around i guess i I missed Daryl, right? Like Daryl was at that point in time, raised us like he was our dad. So I didn't understand it, um, at that point in time. Um, but like, it's your mom and they're supposed to take care of you. So I, uh, we ended up moving from the house that we were at to a house in the country. Well, then all the shit happens.

Um, then you realize that this guy drinks and he's abusive and he has, he has a son, which is now my stepbrother. Um, and it starts with watching him get beat. Um, was he older than you? Yeah, it was, let's see. I would have been, he would have probably. Was he older than you?

Yeah, it was, let's see, I would have been, he would have probably been two years older than me. I think somewhere around in there. Like hit with hands and belts and spoons and shit like that. It didn't matter.

Walk up and just get punched dead square in the face. So, um, and then, and then it starts on you. Um, and then you don't, and then you watch your mom get beat. Um, And then it starts on you. And then you watch your mom get beat. And you don't, I guess at that point in time, you don't understand.

You know what I mean? You just, things are happening. And this goes on for a while. And then all of a sudden, my grandma and grandpa show up one night while he's off doing his thing with a friend, whatever they're doing. I don't know. He leaves and my grandma and grandpa show up and we pack up the truck and their van and we leave for Florida where my grandma and grandpa live. So they know you're getting beat and they're coming to rescue you. That would be my guess. That's what's going on.

Are they still alive? My grandpa is not. And the last time I knew my grandma still was. So we go to Florida. We spend a summer in Florida until Bob shows up and talks to my mom. And whatever happened, happened. Oh, your mom goes with you too? Yeah. Does this dude have a flock like when you say he's a preacher does he actually work in a church and preach

okay okay no he just carries the bible around and carries a bible a bible in our certificate that says he's a preacher so okay and then in between reading you bible quotes he's beating you Bible quotes. He's beating you. Yeah. Pretty much. So, um, we ended up in Florida. Yeah. We ended up in Florida for that summer. And, uh, this would all been probably the summer before everything had started.

Um, we ended up in Florida. Well, my mom ends up, he comes down and my mom ends up that day telling him that we'll go back. And, uh, I remember walking into my grandma and grandpa's house and just bawling my eyes out. Like, I don't want to go. I don't want to go. And my grandma was mad and they'd come and got us and got us out and whatever it sucks. Um, so we pack up and come home we come back to ohio and and the beating

stop and you live happily ever after yeah i wish it was that easy things seemed okay at first like they didn't like nothing happened and i think it was his way of letting, Hey, I've changed. We have to stay with a friend for, I don't know, a couple of weeks until we get into the house that we had ended up, they ended up renting a house. So we end up back on a farm out in the middle of nowhere. And it starts all over. So there's no, the house that we moved into at that point in time, he can't hold a job.

He won't hold a job. He'll work for a week or so, and then he'll be home for a month or so while he's looking for another job. We have no gas heat, no gas in the house. Thankfully, water was on the well. So we had water, um, electricity doesn't get turned on. Um, still trying to go to school, right. They still put me in school. Um, I can remember going to school and getting picked on cause my clothes were dirty. Cause I, I mean, they're not being washed.

So. Because there's no electricity. There's nothing. Are you damaged already at this point? Are you like one of those kids that's like, you're already weird? Like you're in your shell? Yeah, pretty much. I remember beating a kid to the ground over him pointing out that I had dirty pants on.

Okay. Like, broke. So, it's starting. It was already starting. The hate and just resentment, I guess. I don't know if you look back on it. Just fucking anger. A lot of it.

fucking anger a lot of it so i was at thanksgiving dinner last night and this guy used the word evil telling me that there's evil in the world and i go god i just don't i don't i can't i can't accept that word and he said why i'm like because it's just so ambiguous it's like good people are pointing out evil shit and evil people are pointing out evil shit and they're pointing at each other and i just can't and he goes well how about this we both and i was asking do you think it's nurture or nature and he said that um the way he sees this is we all have good and we all have evil in us but basically if if you nurture one of them it grows it can i believe yeah so do you think that at that point that your kind of your path was chosen for you as a kid, but then at that point you were nurturing the the wrong character in yourself as a survival mechanism? But I can remember nights going to bed, not having any food, like not eating, you know, not having heat. Like I remember being on that farm and having to go out and shovel cow shit out of a field just to be able to put in the fireplace to get warm.

Wow. OK. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, that kind of life. Like, yeah. Hey, go pick some dandelions and let's cook them and eat them. Like you didn't have white. You didn't have white privilege. I didn't have any privilege about that didn't have any privilege. How about that? You had a shovel. Quit complaining. You had a cow that shit. What are you talking about? True.

You would have been a great rap star. Jason has a, I think the greatest tattoo in the history of tattoos is Tupac's tattoo. I fucking knew this was coming. Tattoo thug life. I thought, and I kind of despise tattoos i kind of always rag on people that have tattoos but this thug life tattoo that tupac has is so amazing look i'm gonna tell you i don't know if you've noticed it has changed it has changed it's not life anymore but i want to tell you that i respect that i respect uh it's changed to hug life yes but i do i do uh i actually got that tattoo from amazon the

whole tupac kit and put it on one of my kids i just thought man like tupac really i mean he earned like i just think that people should have to earn their tattoos that's awesome and you know when we were kids only the guys in prison had tattoos like they had naked girls on their forearms or the mexicans in my town if they were fucking the gnarly ones they had the teardrop or the spider web on the elbow like your tattoos meant some shit yeah yep okay so um god look at that i have no problem with any of your tattoos you're the i'm going to give you a complete pass and an approval from the Sevan podcast as the first guest in 600 guests where I approve. Thank you.

Those are dope. You're welcome. If you need a certificate, I'll draw one up for you. That would be awesome. Put it on cardstock for you. Certificate of authenticity. You get fucking tattoos and you don't even smoke cigarettes. Get the fuck out of here. Like everyone who had a tattoo back in the day smoked. Yeah. You had one behind the ear, one in your mouth.

You had a motorcycle. A pack rolled up in your shirt or something. I never heard about motorcycles in your story. Did you ever get into motorcycles? We bought a Harley once. And then I had a Suzuki for a second. But I ended up getting rid of them. Yeah, they're dangerous.

Yeah. And I don't think you had enough danger in your life. Yeah. I don't think there's so much dangerous as the people around you are. It's sure. Sure. Hard. You're right.

People don't pay attention, period. They're so wrapped up and consumed with themselves. So they're too busy driving, eating their big Mac and watching their phone. Yeah. So, so shit gets bad and you're looking for a way out basically. No food, no water, getting beat. And so basically just out of the sheer pressure of the situation, you're looking for an escape. Yeah. So what happened was my mom and I knew my mom knew it was bad. Like, because she was being beat to, you know what I mean? It wasn't like we were all just being abused. The guy was.

Was what he was. And so we ended up moving out of that house and we moved into a trailer house that was on a piece of land. And apparently we were trying to buy it. It was like 50 some acres up on a hill, um, had a trailer and so forth. And, and Bob was, was going to work. Um, like he, so like they had to pay for it. Right. So they had, he has to go to work.

Um, so he goes to work and I, I don't know, I don't know how my mom met this guy or nothing. I have no idea. Um, but my mom ends up meeting this hairdresser and we go to Zanesville, which is East of Columbus too, um, to meet this hairdresser and she's talking to him and hanging out at his place. Well, right in front of his place where his place was, was a pool hall. Um, and I'm like, I want to go explore and I want to go check out what's going on. I don't want to be stuck inside this hair salon, so I venture off and go wandering around. I end up in the pool hall.

I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. All these older people in there, they're all shooting pool. It's, you know, it's smoky, and I don't know. It's just, it was really cool. And at this point, you're probably, without knowing, you're looking for male role models. I'm looking for anything, right? you're looking for male role models. I'm looking for anything, right? I'm looking for friends, approval, something, right? I need somebody to look up to.

Or even if you're not looking for it, you're super susceptible to it. If I could just find one person who accepts me, I'm in. Yep. Yep. And so I'm in and out of there. We're at this guys, we're at this salon quite a few times, like quite a few. We've ventured there a lot when Bob's gone driving truck because he was a truck driver, too. So we end up there a lot. And I can remember going to the pool hall quite a bit. I remember I remember there was some quarters laying on the side of the pool table and I was like,

nobody's standing here. So I reached over and grabbed them, put them in my pocket. I was like, fuck yeah, I got some quarters. I'm going to go to the store. I start to walk out and right when I get to the door, somebody grabs me. Fuck, I'm in trouble. He's like, can I have my quarters back? And he was like five foot five. Big as a brick shithouse. Just a big boy.

Just short. And how old were you? I would have been 12, 13 at the time, like a hundred pounds, maybe. So not that big. He grabbed me by the arm and he was like hey uh i need my

quarters back calm as hell like i remember it like it was yesterday like scared and it still brings up jitters inside of me like i was scared i was scared to death i'm like what quarters he's like the quarters you took off that table how about getting back to me so i reach in my pocket and i give him his quarters back and i was just like let me go i'm ready to go like i gotta get out of here um and he was like what's your name and i was like jason and he's like you want to play pool i'm like no i'm good i'm fine just let me go i gotta go so he says anytime you want to play, come on back. How old was the guy?

At that point in time, he was probably in his mid thirties would be my guess. Mid thirties, late thirties, something like that. So I jetted and I was scared to death. Scared. Like I was scared enough. Every time we went back to the thing, I'm like, I'm not going near that place. Uh, you're not getting me there. Well, then I think it got the better of me. Like he told me I could go play. Like he didn't hurt me. Like I took his money. So, so yeah, I go back. Um, and he's there and like, just slowly started talking to me and I talked to him and like,

I want to call it. It was like, it developed into like a friendship. Like to me, it was like, I was a friend. Right. And he always asked about my mom and this and that. And I'll never forget the day I went back. Like I hung out too long and I went back to the hair salon and my mom was gone. And I was like, what am I supposed to do? Like, well, Terry was the hair guy. He says, your mom said, just hang out. She'll be back to get you sometime.

Okay. No. So I took off, I left. And that was the beginning of understanding what it's like to be on my own. Like that was it. Like I knew it then I knew that I was going to be on my own. Like my mom had left and left me there. And did you go back to the pool hall? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I went back to the pool hall and I had talked to Ed. His name ended up being Little Ed. That was his name. And now that I'm older, like, I look back and I realize, like, these guys were all just street gangsters. That's all they were. Yeah. yeah old school drug dealers and pimps and just just the crazy stuff that you really you never

really think about until you're in it right so like it just all white dudes all white dudes no no no mix there was a whole bunch there was it was a mix of everything so yeah just it is the club clubhouse for uh entrepreneur uh thugs yeah pharmaceutical reps i guess yeah i remember we had a pool hall like that in oakland that i would go to uh once in a while i'm almost sure every town big town had one at one point probably so so yeah um i end up i just end up on the streets i end up staying with ed and i'd met some other people i'd stayed with and every now and then my mom would show up and i'd go home with her and it was like nothing ever happened it was like and they were they were all nice to you nothing weird you didn't you didn't get molested or anything like that no all just

just dudes almost like they're almost like their, I guess, is the way I was treated because they were always, always about, hey, you need to go to school. Hey, you need to not be like us. Don't be out here on the streets. And I remember a couple of them a couple of times catching me and beating my ass. Not like legitimately beat me down, but punch on me. Slap you around a little bit. Yeah, rough me up because I wasn't in school, you know? So, so I'm like, man, I want to make the money that you're making.

That's what I want. I need money. And that was where it started. Like we rented an apartment, um, and he taught me to cook crack. Do you still remember how to do it? Yeah. Wild. And can you tell me a little bit about that? What, how do you, how do you cook crack? You can mix, um, usually it's just boiling. You boil the cocaine and, and water with a, with a, whatever you're cutting it with.

And we used to use baby laxative, what we used. You cut it in it and boil it. You just have to, don't overboil it, obviously, but you want to boil it into the right temperature and then just, it'll harden up. And then you guys would break it up and would you guys bag it there too? Yeah. And then he would sell it? Yeah, we would.

You would sell it even as a young man? Oh, yeah. What's that look like? They're like, hey, go take this to so-and-so's house and you're 13 years old and you ride over there on a bike or run over there? Yeah. Along the way, if you find one on the street that somebody wants a rock, then you just sell it to them. And, and was the money good?

Oh yeah. For, I mean, for a 13 year old kid, it was awesome. Yeah. Look, I wasn't hungry anymore.

If I wanted to stop and buy a sandwich, I could buy a sandwich. Like, and not to go to sleep hungry. Yeah, I had to worry about getting robbed, but that wasn't fair. Did you get robbed as a kid? Yeah. Yeah. Ed had always told me, he was always like, hey, if you ever go to get robbed, just give all your shit up. Don't get shot. Don't fight it. Just give it up. We'll get them back later.

Okay. So one night at the pool hall, I had a guy, hey, hey, come here, man. I got this stuff. Because you used to be able to find these crackheads that would like, you could trade for goods. Like they'd walk around with lists of things they could get. And you just go through and check off what you want. And they would show up with it. Tools,

car stereos, all that shit, shoes, clothes. It didn't matter. They could get anything. So we go, go out back right off the side of the pool thing.

This guy's standing there and he's like, Hey man, check this out. I got this lawn furniture. I'm like, dude, I don't have no lawn to put no lawn furniture on. What am I going to do? Well, come on, man. Just give me, give me something. I'm like, no, I went back inside. I didn't think about it. Just let it go. Not a big deal. It's probably three or four days later. He's like, hey, man, I got this. I got some stuff. I'm like, I don't need no front lawn furniture, dude.

Don't. He's like, no, no, no, no, dude. It's this clothes. I got some clothes. I'm like, all right, let's go check it out. So we go outside and I turn the corner and he's standing with a gun. Fuck. Here we go.

It's my first robbery. Here you go. Off he goes. Ran off. And you give him the crack and your money oh yeah yeah so i guess that's the name of the that's the name of the business and by now have you come out of your shell like are you getting confident do you talk do you have a little swagger yeah yeah i have nice clothes and i have some money in my pocket and i can eat and um i feel accepted let's put it that way. How long does this go on

for? Um, year and a half, maybe something like that. Almost two years until the night that Jeff shot his dad. Oh, what was Jeff was one of the other uh entrepreneurs at the pool that was my step brother oh shit yeah oh it gets better so so go ahead go ahead we were i was in and out um one night bob was home um and i know which is really, this becomes a really weird situation here because it always throws markers up to me about why, um, certain things happen. My sister was staying with my aunt and uncle, um, over here, just not far from where our gym is. Um, and that whole summer, I had not ever been allowed to go to my aunt and uncles ever. I wasn't allowed to. Um, I always had to stay home, um, until that weekend for some odd reason. They knew you were a drug dealer. Is that why?

No, it wasn't them. It was my mom and Bob would never let me go. So I, uh, I ended up was allowed to stay that weekend. Um, which was really weird. But midnight, 1230 or something. My aunt comes in and wakes me up and says, Hey, uh, we don't know what's going on,

but your uncle's going to leave and head down to the house in Dresden. And I'm like, okay, why? Well, apparently Bob got shot and we don't know if your mom's dead or not. And I was like, shit. Um, okay. That's weird. What apparently happened, Jeff had had enough. He'd got beat that night. That's your stepbrother. Yeah. He was two years older than you.

Which is his dad. Okay. He'd got beat that night. And when they went to bed, Bob had fell asleep on the couch and my mom had went to her bed. And he'd grabbed a.22 rifle out of the closet and walked out and shot him while he was sleeping and killed him on the couch. Holy shit. So. on the couch holy shit so um is is what was what was his name what was your stepbrother's name jeff is he still in jail for

that no last time i seen he'd finally gotten out when you were in jail did you see him no he was here in ohio i was in montana wow crazy and that was the end he was he was here in Ohio. I was in Montana. Wow. Crazy. And that was the end. He was, he was done with the beatings. Yep. That was it.

He actually, my mom come out when she heard the gunshots and he was standing in the living room with the gun and like, she didn't know what was going on is what she said. He handed her the gun and said, it's over. I don't have to take it no more. her the gun and said, um, it's over. I don't have to take it no more. And you're, you're, you, in your story, you said your mom went to jail after that also. Yeah. So whatever happened, I'm like, we went to stay with my aunt and uncle, um, then, and Jeff had said some things that night, and this is the flags that throw out for me. I don't know the true story. I don't, I just know how it happened. Um, Jeff had said some things that night, and this is the flags that throw out for me. I don't know the true story. I don't.

I just know how it happened. Jeff had said some things that my mom had kept putting in his head that he needed to do this. Gotcha. Okay. That this needed to happen, that he would be okay because he was a juvenile and he wouldn't get in deep trouble. Holy shit. You think that that story is true? I would like to think it's not, but I won't tell you it's not.

Gotcha. So. So your shit gets, and that's crazy traumatic for you. Your shit gets tossed up. It gets tossed up bad. And do you keep your job at the pool hall? No. As the cook? No. As the cook? No. No. My aunt and uncle ended up adopting us for a while because my mom got locked up.

And then she got sentenced to prison. So we go to live with my aunt and uncle. I change schools, everything. Yeah. And that chapter just closes but um that with no but with no um there's no one really to talk to about it like you don't go to counseling it's just like one minute you're dealing crack at the pool hall and then next minute your step your stepdad. Yeah. Did you mourn his loss? No, not at all. No. Look, there's not...

I don't ever wish bad on some people. I really don't. I'm not that kind of person anymore. When you talked about the evil thing... Yeah. I truly believe there is. There's evil in this world. And after living it,

I truly believe that some people are capable of it and he's one of them. And whether it takes counseling or not, I truly believe he deserved what he got. He fostered that. He, he built that kid that did that. I can see that. I can see that. So I can, I can see that he created an environment where he was hated to the point where someone needed to, for, for the kid's own survival. And who, I mean, really the way this story is going,

who knows if that kid would still be alive if he didn't do that. Maybe he was just getting one, getting hit with a pot or pan and the head away from dying himself. He was, I remember walking in the door at times, not a word said. And I remember Bob getting up off the couch and walking over and just full on man blasting him right in his face.

Out of the blue. We just got home from school. Broken nose. I'm just like. Breaking your own son's nose. Yeah. God, can you imagine what his past must have been like? His dad must have been a monster.

He must have been a monster he must have been so so your mom and uh and you don't even you don't even know does anyone talk to you about your mom going to jail that's got to be traumatic too that would break most people their mom we were there most of everything that went on with her um so like we got dead we got deposed um I did a lot through this whole thing about that. So there have, so you've been telling these stories your whole life almost. Yeah. For the most part, that part of it. So you're 14 or 15 years old and you're sitting there and there's a bunch of dudes in suits asking you questions.

Yeah. Yeah. Lawyers, cops. We get talked to a lot about it. You know what I mean? And then they charge my mom. And she pleads out another marker. I don't know.

I don't know if it's true or not. I really don't. You'd like to think that it's not, that your mom isn't capable of that. But who knows? Do you cry a lot at that it's not that your mom isn't capable of that, but who knows? Do you, do you cry a lot at that point in your life? Yeah. Um, not as much anymore. Like, like at one point I like, you just, I think I cried that night he was shot and

I don't know if it was crying. I was sad. I was crying. I was happy. Like it was over. It really was and how long did you how long did your mom do um one of six six or eight months i think okay okay she had i think she got 18 she got 18 but got out in like six or eight. God, I wonder what that looks like in the court that you kill – well, I guess because she didn't pull the trigger.

And how long did your brother get? 15 to life. Oh my god. And he was a minor. He was 17. 17. Holy shit. Yep. And did you ever

you've never seen him again since then? no I haven't what a trip is there any party that wants to see him again or is it kind of like the past is the past I think it's kind of like the past is the past like if it ever happens then I'll deal with it then but

like it was a totally different time and world back then and things were way different like I'll deal with it then. But like, it was a totally different time and world back then. And things were way different. Like if he did his time and you know what I mean? Do I believe he should have now? I don't. I think that, like I said, that was, that situation was fostered by that man. It really was. It was deserving from him. Um, but he's done his time. And if he doesn't ever relive it, and then I happen to be that person that has him relive it, then that's not good. Like, hopefully, maybe he's moved on. Yeah. And he has a productive life. I hope he does. What a trip to share that story, because you share a story with him that only the two of you kind of know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember chasing him with a chainsaw one night. The dad or the brother? The dad. Oh. Yeah.

He slapped me in the head and I had a chainsaw in my hand and I went after him. Holy shit. Just dumb shit. So you could have killed him. Oh, yeah. If I, I can't tell you you i wouldn't have that day i'd had enough so yeah there's a chance i could have done it but what stopped you what stopped me y'all ran me he ran faster than me yes he's an adult yeah that's it really that's all it was i was after him i was going he i had a chainsaw and he he could run faster i had these neighbors across the street from me they were fucking wild they were in the hell's angels it was in pacheco

california and i was a little kid and i remember one day the two brothers who lived there got in the fight i mean they looked like they were 50 to me they were probably 20 at the time i was a little kid. And I remember one day the two brothers who lived there got in a fight. I mean, they looked like they were 50 to me. They were probably 20 at the time. I was a little kid and one of them was chasing one with a chainsaw and the other one picked up like a, like some stolen bike frame that was in their front yard. And they started fighting a dude with just a bike frame. And then another dude with a chainsaw, me and my, me and my stepbrother got in a fight like that once me and Jeff at the bus stop one time, he wanted a cigarette and he wanted me to steal it from my mom, and I didn't do it. And I showed up at the bike path, hit me in the face with his textbook, and I smacked him with a branch off a tree.

We both rolled down this hill. We're both muddy when we get on the bus. Yeah. How old were you when you started smoking? I didn't start until I was probably a freshman in high school. Didn't start until you were a freshman what did you smoke um i started out just smoking marlboros and then i ended up smoking newports god isn't it crazy how fit you are now knowing all the shit you put into your body yeah look i'm gonna tell you right now i'll be surprised we were

talking the other day about i'd be surprised if my liver don't have a bunch of scars on it. So when, when, when, when did you first start doing drugs? I'm going to say probably when I was a freshman in high school, probably after all this happened, I didn't do any drugs when I was selling them when I was younger. That was one thing Ed made sure of. Ed had been through it all. Ed had hit the highs and then ended up getting high on everything he owned and lost everything.

And he ended up coming back. He ended up coming back and getting sober and selling drugs again, which, I mean, it is what it is. It's entrepreneurial. It's all he knew. It's his business. It's all he knew. So he does that. And then he was really adamant about telling me that and making sure that I didn't get high.

Like, don't do drugs. Don't. It leads you down a bad path. And everything that you're working on is gone. Were there girls around? There was. I really wasn't interested in them, I guess. Did the pool hall ever have women in it?

I don't ever remember seeing them. There was a few in it. There wasn't a lot. Like when I look back, unless I'm just like didn't care, there never seemed to be a lot of them around. Like everyone had their girl, right? Like I had his wife. She was married. He was married. He had his own place outside of town that she stayed at. We just had an apartment in town that we stayed at that that's where we crashed at. So, and that, and that, and that was kind of the headquarters for the business. Yeah.

Yeah. For the most part, like we would crash there when it was time to crash and cook. And then with like, we'd take off, you know, every now and then and just go out to his place and stay for a week or two

and not go back into town for a while. Did the neighbors know in that building that you were cooking crack? Most of them did it. Right. They were your best customers.

Yeah. Most of them did it. So you just give them some to keep them quiet. What a fucking life. And then by this time, you carry a gun with you. Oh, yeah. I carried one from day one. So you're a kid with a gun. Someone gave you a gun. Ed gave you a gun. Yeah. gun ed gave you a gun yeah and and then you start basically when you move in with your aunt and your uncle it turns into uh you start doing more street crime like robbing cars like things seem kind of

normal when i started my freshman year in school and school there like other than the fact that we just went through a bunch of shit right right so like did everyone in the school know that's the kid right there who stepped i don't know? I don't know. Honestly, I have no idea. I know my aunt and uncle had talked to the principal about me. And like warned him. Like I had a bunch of anger. I was going to. And I took it out on kids that were picking on me.

Had a kid picking on me. Some other kids were agonizing on me and kept picking on me. And I went home one night and told my uncle, I sit down at the table and I was like, Hey, I said, I'm getting picked on, but I don't want to cause no problems for anybody. Like, I don't want to cause problems for you guys and so forth. And like, what, what do you want me to do? Like, should I go to the principal or what? Or do you guys like what's happening? Um, and my uncle, he looked at me and he said, sometimes you just got to do what you need to do. I said, okay, that's all I need to know. We go to bed. I go to go to bed, and I remember walking up the stairs that night. My aunt had already walked away, and he looked at me, and he goes, don't you lose. I said, okay. So the next day, we were in the gym, and this kid, that same kid,

Sean was his name, picked up a basketball and hit me with it, and I picked it up, and I kid, that same kid, Sean was his name, picked up a basketball and hit me with it. And I picked it up and I thought, well, here it is. So I picked it up and I acted like I was going to throw it at him. And he kind of ducked and turned away. And I'd taken like two steps towards him and I'd let the basketball go as hard as I could hitting right in the face. And by the time he hit the ground, I was already sitting on top of him. I just started beating him. And I think everything, I can only equate it to everything in the last five years came out that day. Every bit of it.

I beat and I beat and I cried and I swung until they pulled me off of him. That kid caught the brunt of every bit of anger that I had for my mother, for everything that had happened. That day, it wasn't good. Hey, is CrossFit like, is any part of CrossFit like that for you now? Do you ever get out there and you're in the pain cave and you're tapping into that? Do you ever get out there and you're in the pain cave and you're tapping into that? Yeah. My wife tells me the one thing I'm really, really good at is I know how to suffer.

Do you actually feel it? Like the way maybe your face tenses up or the way you hold your body? Do you ever have these kind of like out-of-body experiences mid-workout? And you're like, oh, shit, this is like. Yeah. Like everything that i that i'm going through or i went through feels exactly like this yeah what a trip i mean there i don't think it's a stretch to say that a lot of these people who are doing what you're doing at this level aren't they basically dug a well and the only way they can get to those spots you know your life has

such insane depth in it of of emotional depth in it the gambit is so much deeper than most people's that there's places that need to be tended to in the deepest part of the well that you can only get – that you don't go to easily without some synthetic suffering, which – safe kind of suffering, which is CrossFit. I always say it. I always say it. If I can out-suffer the person next to me, I'll beat you. When I hear you tell these stories stories it's interesting watching your body language and and and watching your breathing like you tell these stories and you're kind of like holding your breath and then you let go a lot of feelings come back if that yeah i don't know if that like i don't and i probably should and i probably should have a long time ago went to somebody. Yeah. But this is, I guess when you asked me to do this and Corey asked me to do his podcast and like I sit down and like through the years I've talked to friends, we sit down to the table and just hang out and I'll tell stories.

I think that's kind of my way of, of being counseled instead of going to a counselor. You know what I mean? Like it does. It wells up a lot of feeling in me a lot. Like knowing that that kid picked on me and knowing that every, he could have just been beat. I could have just beat him up based on the fact that you beat, that you were picking on me, but I didn't. I beat him up based on the fact that you beat that you were picking on me but i didn't

i beat him up based on the fact that my life was fucked for the last five years right and that i mean that fucking gives me goosebumps it does like that's not normal that's not a normal childhood that's not a normal feeling that you should ever ever have. Right. And I have them now because of it. You have what now? That feeling. Oh. I hate that feeling. Yeah.

Like, that he got that because of my life. Oh, right. You know what I mean? Like, it's not cool. He probably didn't pick on anyone anymore. He didn't pick on me anymore. Yeah. Yeah, that's for sure. And that changes your whole reputation at school too me anymore. Yeah. Yeah.

That's for sure. And that changes your whole reputation at school too, right? Yeah. You get in one fight like that at school and everyone kind of is like, no one ever. I never got picked on again. A lot of the kids that were pushing him to pick on me, we end up friends. Yeah. Yeah.

They're not stupid. No, they're not. Or they had to come picked on me themselves yeah exactly so god uh do you know is it a small town where you how far are you from that town where that happened right now where you live um 20 minutes do you ever see these people still from elementary school junior high and high school no you don't seem like you don't walk into like the sit down at Denny's and you look over and there's a dude. Now, now it's very rare anymore, which is really weird because like we're not in that big a town and you would think that I would run into people, more people. I've had a lot of people come up to me and they may be some of them. I've had a lot of people come up to me since I've been out of prison and been like, Hey Jay, how are you? Hi. And then they'll walk away and my wife will go, you have no idea, do you? I said,

I don't know who that was. Not one bit. But someone from your past. Yeah. But someone from your past. Yeah. Okay. So you, man, what a story. So the preacher gets killed. You go and move in with your aunt. And what is your next?

And then you're in high school now. And did you bring your gun to high school too? No. No, okay. That was an after school activity you would you would pick up the gun yeah well at this point in time my uncle starts his own business and i end up going to work and making money with him and like things are normal and and my mom is in jail um so we're with them and then my aunt gets a hold of my dad and this is the first time i've seen my dad since i was little

so they come up and my dad's there with his wife my stepmom um so i meet him again he comes up from florida he they were still moving around. So they come up. I see him. I'm going to school. I'm working. I get in that fight. I get suspended.

Nothing really major happens. And then one day my mom gets out of prison. And she wants custody back. And she lives with my aunt for a while because she didn't have anywhere, obviously, to go. And then she meets somebody, another guy. We call him Farmer Bob because he owned his own farm. His name was Bob, too.

She meets him. She ends up renting a trailer from Bob's friend who lives on another farm farther down the road. And she takes custody back of us and we go stay there. We end up eventually moving into Bob's house with Bob when they get married. So, and I don't know if that did it or not. But that's when I started venturing out a little more again. So I ended up running around doing drugs, going to Columbus more, meeting other people, um, starting to hang out a little later, start drinking, just all kinds of things. I guess drugs do you do at that point in time?

All I did was smoke weed. I didn't do anything hard at that point in time. Um, not that weed isn't, but like at that point in time, I just smoked weed. So and drank and knit that we were usually just like weekenders. And every time through the week, maybe before school or after we'd get high. But like I wasn't fucked up all the time. So. School goes on, I end up going to a local joint vocational school. Are you playing any sports yeah i was playing basketball okay wow okay yeah we'd go out and get high before the game so it was pretty wild

um and then i'd go to the vocational school i have my own car finally i'm working with uh i'm working at a full service gas station as an attendant. People don't even know what those are anymore, by the way. Right. That one's closed down completely, actually. So we're doing that. I'm doing that. I guess trying to be like a normal human being, right? Just trying to be a kid, play sports, hold a job, whatever. Well, one of the gas stations attendants, my wife was actually talking to me about it last night.

One of the gas station guys, one of the mechanics there, his name was Jim. He used to drive this old like Dodge, like 1970s Dodge van. He had long hair, big old burly mustache and beard, but I used to get my weed from him right at the gas station. I'd buy it right out of his van from him. So like, I just started to meet new people again, like, and it came so easy, like, because I'd already been in this situation once. I'd already done all this um just on a grander scale so you were a bit

of a seasoned hustler already at a young age yeah you could and you could and you could read people and you knew you knew um it's one thing i've been pretty good at and i think that helped me with a lot with crossfit like greeting people and meeting people and seeing my athletes when they come through the door or reading somebody in the middle of a workout it's like i've always been pretty good at reading people um and i also tell people like i didn't survive eight years in prison by not being able to read people so and and so so you're so you're working at this gas station full service and are you doing any crime at that point is that is that when you're stealing car stereos also uh no and well right around that

time's when it started um so i busted a i busted a guy's window one times i wanted a stereo so i reached in and took it um and then that was the heyday of stereos do you remember all the cool stereos like pioneers and kenwoods and he had a he had a jensen stereo that i wanted so bad and they had the faces that came out or they had the pull outs or they had the tend to cd player in the trunk or in the in the in the uh glove compartment all that 12 inch subwoofers in the back. Yeah. All that fun shit. And I want crossovers. And so I took it just so happens somebody seen me take it. Um, and it said something about it. So cops show up,

I get in trouble. Um, I end up on probation because of it. Um, time goes by, uh, I end up off probation. I end up on probation because of it. Time goes by. I end up off probation. I end up running away. We end up in Florida a couple of times on runaway as a runaway.

I don't know. I just end up meeting. I just end up running into the wrong crowd. Like, was it fun? Were you having fun? Oh, yeah. I was having a blast. Yeah. It was a ball i mean we end up it we end up down and we end up in florida one time with a friend's uh

family we end up down there and they end up taking us to disney world while we're there like hey you guys are runaways let's go to disney world okay wow yeah so i'm pretty sure it was just to keep us distracted um why our parent why his parents came and got us so and and you were and you had a car you had a car yeah he did and so when you would do these runaways and you would go to florida it was like no big deal like you guys would just have a handful of cash and and make your and just fill up the gas tank and just make your way across the country. The one time we left, we bought Greyhound tickets.

And I think we both had like 20 some dollars in our pocket when we left. And this was just your partner in crime at the time? At that point in time, it was, yeah. Crazy. And he probably had a crazy past too. Actually, I don't think he did. His parents were

still married lived in the same house he grew up in everything nuts so and in that car stereo at some point you and you were a 4.0 student at that time yeah so you're on the basketball team a 4.0 student um but but eminently capable of getting into a shitload of trouble and handling yourself if you were in any trouble. Yeah. Yeah. Some odd reason. I just always found that way. And it has to be because that's what I've always known. It has to be. I don't know. I know right from wrong. That's what's funny. I knew right from wrong. And did, did other kids think you were cool because of just fucking how hard you

were? No, no, they didn't. I had, I had friends, my friends that were on the street, obviously everyone like you want to be around me because of fear or

because I was fun. I'm not sure which, but like I had a bun. I had friends on the street, right? Quaintances, whatever you want to be around me because of fear or because I was fun. I'm not sure which, but like I had a bun, I had friends on the street, right? Quaintances, whatever you want to call them. The kids at school,

I never really got involved with. Like I didn't get, I didn't spend too much time talking to kids at school. Cause I just like, I never felt anyone knew what I was going through or what I had been through. They lived on a different planet than you yeah that's what it always felt like so did you ever have Christmas trees and presents did you guys do holidays no no birthdays people ever remember your birthday? Not so much.

That shit hurt. At that point in time, it happened so often. It was just, it never was never an issue. Just you dropped the expectation. Yeah. Other kids can't wait for Christmas.

You're like, just fucking winter. It just means snow that's it yeah what a trip what a different yeah you were on a different planet as you tell this story i wonder about my some of my the kids that went to my you know junior high elementary school high school who who kind of had similar they were almost ghosts there but you knew that they were carrying around a lot look i'm almost sure savon that like i'm almost sure my story isn't anything special it isn't like i'm pretty sure there's other ones out there and there's some out there that are probably way worse than mine

but this one is mine and i lived it right like what you're saying is you wonder about those kids like there's times i wonder about other kids that were in my school. Now, you know what I mean? Like. One of my best friends in elementary school, all of a sudden it was like weird. It was like in the fifth grade, our friendship just ended. And and then I went to junior high with them in high school with them and i saw him at my 20-year reunion and i go hey dude i'm trying to recollect what happened to our friendship like we were so close we played every day for four years first second third fourth grade you know every day we were like so tight

and he and he told me this is at my 20-year reunion oh my mom was dying of cancer oh and then that took like five years and then she died and i was just never the same and i was like holy fuck right i was just happy-go-lucky kid in the fourth or fifth grade and i'm selfishly wondering what the fuck happened to my friend yeah and it was his home life was just fucking falling apart he's watching his mom die at home. Yeah. So, so, so,

so you, you, you, you basically, you know, you know, a life of the streets. You're basically from a young age, you're in complete survival mode.

And when's the first time you ended up going to jail? I went once as a juvenile. I had to go because of that stereo. I got in trouble. Jensen. Yeah. To, um, Julie hall, whatever.

JDC juvenile detention center. Um, I had to go to it. Um, and I got out from it when I got put on probation. Um, and then I go, how long were you in there? Three weeks. Okay. Long enough to, I just make me a badass because I went to JDC, I guess. Right. Right. That's all it was. Right. Of course. It was just kind of like an honor, like a medal of honor. Yeah. Right. Another story. Yeah. Another notch of why you're a badass. Yep. You can do, you can do what you want. Yep. Yeah. So I do it. Um, and then I end up at i want to say january of 95 i think is when i got put in jail here in

ohio is that right 95 at any time during any of this does anyone like reaches out to you from the state or anything and you're like you're putting counseling or a rehabilitation no no no there's no you never feel any kind of like hey this is the path no get off this path no no no i uh we were i had a girlfriend at the time and it all got it's all messed up like i ended up at her parents' house. I didn't realize that she didn't live there and we weren't supposed to be there. I thought we were allowed to be there. Well, we end up in there. Now, what I did wrong was I did take some shit while we were there.

But I didn't realize we weren't supposed to be in the house. I didn't realize we weren't supposed to be in the house. I didn't know that. So taking of the stuff was wrong. Yes. Which is what they eventually charged me with burglary from that when I took the stud, the jewelry from the house. And then how, and so you went to jail for that? Yeah. Yeah.

I got three to 15 for it here in Ohio. And they had at that point in time, they have what they call shock probation and super shock probation. And it depends on if your crime was aggravated or not. Meaning if someone was home? No, meaning if there was intent or not. Oh, okay. I intended to take it.

So they hit me with aggravated burglary. So you get what they call super shock probation. And after six months of doing your time on your first offense, you can apply for it. And then they have the decision whether to grant it or not. So I did 10 months before I got granted and they let me out. And that was 1995? Yes. October of 95. And so, and that was 1995.

Yes. October of 95. Was she still your girlfriend when you got out of jail? No, she wasn't my girlfriend before I went. Okay. Just some girl. Just some girl. She was my girlfriend at the time we were, we were at the house. Like we went in her parents' house, but like it was shortly after that.

She was not my girlfriend again. Were your 10 months in jail? And that was 95. So that was, do you remember how old you were? 19, maybe. And was that like, like going to crime camp? That was like, exactly. That's a good way of putting it. I've never heard it that way, but that's actually a really neat way of putting it. I always tell people it didn't teach me anything other than how to do crimes bigger and badder. And why is that? There's other dudes in there and you guys are just basically sharing stories. Hey, you should have done this. Hey, you should have done this. This is how you ended up meeting up a few people that I had known from the streets that I thought they were dead and

they weren't, they were in prison. So like, Hey, Hey, there's, Hey, check it out. There's Gerald or whatever. It's like, Whoa, dude, I thought i thought you were dead nah they hit me up on this robbery charge and it's like cool so you hang out and you start talking and then you meet his friends and and then you just that's just what happens you start realizing there's better ways to do things crazy it's like uh it it really does sound like you take a like a like in crossfit they're called like specialty courses it's like it really does sound like you take us like like in CrossFit, they're called like specialty courses. It's like you went there because basically for nine months you hang out with other dudes who've broken the law and you guys literally swap stories. Hey, you should have done it like this. Oh, by the way, if you ever run into the cops, put your stuff here. And that way you can say you're detached from it or this this is what you say or all that shit.

Or I know a lawyer who can get you off of this. Exactly. It's not there's no one in there being like, hey, I'll'll never do this again you want to start a bakery when we get out there's always people that do that always i'm straightening up when i get out i found religion okay so you get out and you just do you immediately just start start get back in the biz no i got out man the only place i could i got out to i got out to a buddy's house who was actually when i got locked up was a real good friend of mine ended up becoming like and i'll be coming like my road dog i mean me and him were inseparable um a him and his fiancee at the time um had an apartment i got out and went there um and i was trying to do right thing. He got me a job with his cousin who I'd worked for a few times anyway, framing houses. I was trying to be straight. I'd quit smoking weed and was like, I'm good. This is going to be, I'm going to straighten up.

Um, well he didn't like, he still smoked weed and like it was, it was always still there. Um, and one night I, he had a beef with one of our other friends, his boyfriend. I don't know what happened. I have no idea. Well, Danny had a shotgun and, uh, we showed up at the place that he was at. And Danny put him on the ground and put the shotgun in his mouth. And shit went haywire. Cops got called and all kinds of shit. So I thought we were going to get in trouble.

So I just revert back to exactly what I know. Let's start getting high. So I blew it all off and just started smoking weed again, started getting high, started hanging out with all the wrong people again. The cops show up one day at the house at the apartment, knocked on the door. They had an indictment for us for that night for where we threatened them with the shotgun, put us in jail, let us back out on OR, showed up, I don't know, 20 some days later, locked us up again for the other kid that was there. He filed an indict, a charge on us and they indicted us on him too. We go to jail, they file us on the OR again, let us out on our own recognizance again.

And then it was on. Then it was like, I'm not reporting anymore. I'm not doing anything. I'm leaving. Let's go back. Let's go back home to old stomping grounds, which was right up the road here in a town called Johnstown. And let's go. Let's go have fun. Um, and let's go, let's go have fun. So is that because your situation started to seem homeless to you and you just like, fuck it, let's throw caution to the wind and go big or go home. So that's the way I've always been is, is like, I'm already in trouble. So fuck it.

Let's go. Might as well keep going. I'm already in trouble. Who cares? Do you have any good habits at this time? Like, are you doing any training? Do you have a gym membership? Do you? No, no, no. I'm just just running around selling drugs. You don't have,

you don't have a book you carry around that you draw pictures in or not, not a single, so you don't have any hobbies or passions. Nope went fishing every now and then with a buddy we liked fishing that was all right and that was kind of just an excuse to do drugs probably i think a lot of it together he'd always come and ask me hey will you get me high i'm having problems with my girlfriend take me fishing he'd take me fishing i'd get him high yeah so so yeah that's uh that goes back to that theme right you got like it's like all you know that's it that's what i know i know i know survive you're right i know survival mode yeah that's what i know so and and and during all these times between the, you know, now I'm guessing you're in your early twenties. Are you an opportunistic thief also? Like you, like you might be out and not have time, have a desire to steal.

Walk by and see somebody's bicycle on their porch and it looks usable. I'll just take it and ride it instead. Yeah. I'm not walking anymore. Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah, we do, we end up back in johnstown running around um i end up we end up meeting up with some people that their family or some pretty good sized drug dealers um

end up running around with a biker gang um never got into the bike thing. Just ran around with the gang. Ended up becoming a bodyguard for a call girl. She was nothing but a hooker. Don't worry. It wasn't no high class thing. Was she your girlfriend? No. No. A friend of ours mom is who it was. Oh, shit. You were a bodyguard. Is a call girl a prostitute or a stripper? That's all she was. a call girl a prostitute or a stripper she was that's all she was she was just a prostitute so so people would call her to have sex with her you would take her somewhere and just make sure that they didn't beat her yep would you be in the room when they were having sex sometimes like if she told you to hey i don't feel safe with this if she ever got if she ever got uncomfortable,

um, she would always tell us me and another friend. She'd always be like, Hey, uh, you're, I'm going to have to have you come in the room. Okay. And this is,

um, uh, pre cell phone. Yeah. I only had a pager. Oh, that's right. It's morning.

We were talking about coming on the podcast and I, I was going to tell somebody this morning. I said, I'm going to coin the hashtag pagers and pay phones. Yeah. That's the. I remember pagers. This morning, we were talking about coming on the podcast, and I was going to tell somebody this morning. I said, I'm going to coin the hashtag pagers and pay phones. Yeah. Because that's the way it used to be. I remember pagers. They were cool. Yep.

And you always carried a gun. Yeah. Did you ever have to break up? Did you ever have to stop? No. They all ended up going to – Everything ended up kosher yeah everything everything has everything ended up kosher like how long did you do that wasn't very long it was only like four or five months

and would she have like three customers in a day um i don't know if i've ever had three i know with two wow that is wild and she would give you a cut of the money yeah yeah we'd always get paid i can't believe that was your friend's mom did you ever talk to your friend about that like yo dude your mom's a prostitute she knew it yeah her daughter her daughter it was her daughter was our friend carol she got a job actually my buddy's girlfriend for a while. And was the mom a drug dealer? I mean, a drug addict? Oh, yeah. That's the only reason why you're a prostitute is to pay for drugs at that point.

Yeah. It's so interesting, too. It's the same thing with, that's the thing that everyone needs to be acutely aware of. Drug addicts don't have jobs. They take shit from – like if you see all those people that the news is calling homeless, those are drug addicts, and they steal shit from you to pay for their drugs. you that you're homeless and then they tax you so that we can then build housing for them and then that's become a whole industry like uh on the west coast homelessness is a billion dollar industry by that i mean the government those those are government jobs and people don't want to tell the truth about what's going on there because they don't want to lose their jobs as like you know whatever probation officers or uh psychologists or all this shit oh they're mentally ill well yeah that's because they've been shooting fucking heroin yeah for fucking 10 years and stealing all this shit you want to know where your kid's bike is it's in that dude's vein over there that's the craziest part all those

people steal that's how they get their shit yeah sure it is yeah it's fucking nuts. So that job ends. Why did that job end? Why did that job end with the call? So what, which leads me into like the bigger story, which is where all I end up in prison, is one night we were coming back from another town. We had some problems with some guys, And we were on our way back. And I pulled into the parking lot that we parked our car in right across the street from the house that

we were staying in, which was her house she was renting. And when I got out of the car, I still had a baseball bat in my hand. And I didn't think about it. So I just turned and threw the baseball bat into the car and it hit the seat and hit the ground. Oh, like bounced out of the car. Yeah. Bounced out and hit the ground. Well, when it did, there's a cop sitting on the road right next to me. Like we were a sidewalk away from the road is where we parked. Well, he's sitting right there and he looks right at me.

And I looked at him and I just reached down. I didn't think nothing about it. It's a baseball bat. So what? I just reached down, grabbed the baseball bat, throw it it's a baseball bat so what i just reached down grab the baseball bat throw it in the car he turns on his lights and pulls in and i was like that's weird well my buddy's holding all our weed so he gets out and tosses it under the car so we don't get in trouble i was like i don't know what's going on why is is he in here? Like, it's not a big deal. It was just a baseball bat. Um, And you're on probation at this time.

Yeah. I was on the run actually off. I, I was, I actually probably had a warrant out for, uh, non-reporting. I would say by that from, from the next city over that you guys, from Franklin County, which is Columbus. Okay. Um, so he pulls in while then like, it wasn't two minutes later, another cop pulls in. Well, the cop that pulled in second is a guy I've always had problems with. Um, his name's Collins. He was, he's always been out for me. Like I've always done shit and he's always just missed me. Never, never been able to arrest me. Um,

he pulls in while we're standing there and I'm standing in front of the car looking at him across from me. And he goes, he's like, what's your name? And I said, Collins, you know who I am. I said, you know, he goes, what's your name? I said, yeah, I said, Jason. He was Jason. What? And I said, come on, man, you know who I am. And he puffs up and gets all big. Jason, what? And I said, Tomlinson. And he looked from me to that. I've come to find out the other cop there was a rookie. He turned and looked at him and he goes, that's what we thought. Put your hands. And that's all I heard. I didn't hear anything else. I took off running. So yeah. On foot. Yep. Yeah. I bailed. Um, talking to my buddy later, they said I had left. I, when I took off running and he didn't even realize I was gone,

they said he turned and looked back where I used to be standing and goes on the car. And he said, he just stood there waiting on me to put my hands on the car. And he said, you weren't even standing there. So I ended up on the run that night. Um, we, I ended up getting out of town. Um, they called all these cops on duty to come look for me. They'd went to all people's houses. They thought maybe I might be at, um, I had a buddy show up at a friend's house and I got in his truck. He took me out of town. Well, we ended up leaving that night and taking off. Carol's mom, her name was Leah. Leah was the girl we bodyguarded for. Through her network of people from the past, she knew some lawyers in Miami down in Florida. Well,

I had ended up meeting some people through them through her and so forth that were Colombians. And I was going to head to Florida and try to get out of the country. Just leave. I want to go. I want to go to get out of here. So we take off, we take off and go to Florida and hop in two stolen vehicles and bail oh shit did you steal the vehicles though that night yeah um so we leave um

we go to florida we go all the way down to miami um we got some stolen credit cards um one of the vehicles blows up on the way. So we all have to fit into this truck that we have. Um, we head down to Florida. We try to find the lawyers and, and everybody and try to get everybody in line for me to be able to leave, um, to get out and, um, come to find out like whether they talk to him or not, that wasn't going to happen. Like it was just a harebrained, it was a harebrained plan. It was it was just a harebrained it was a harebrained plan it was it was a harebrained idea like why didn't you just drive down to texas and cross the border dumbass like right could have got out of the country um but i thought with my

connections i could be gone and disappear and just become a ghost and i wouldn't be in trouble um some young dumb thinking is what it was yeah isn't being young crazy stupid that's what it is yeah so so we end up leaving and coming back did you ever think about joining the military no okay well i can't say no at one point in time in high school my grandpa was a bomber pilot in world war ii um and i thought it would have been cool to be a pilot. Um, just be like, fuck it. I'm tired of getting beaten. I'm tired of the drug scene. I'll just join the military for four years, have, have government take care of me. And I'll just work hard. I thought it'd be cool to follow my grandpa and go to the, go to the air force and be a pilot. Um, but through all this, no,

I never, never crossed my mind again. So we come back, I end up hiding out. Um, everybody kind of went back to their normal, their normal lives, except me, um, and my buddy and then my girlfriend at the time. Um, we kind of hide out, run around. Um, it ended one night when I knew I needed to leave town. We had stolen some three and four wheelers. And I was like, Hey, I was like, let's ride into town. Let's go cause some chaos. I'm kind of bored. On the four wheelers and three wheelers.

Holy shit. Yeah. So yeah, I was bored. Um, I was tired of hiding out in the country in somebody's house. So we got on some three and four wheelers and we rode into town and a little town over not far from here. And I remember backing up to the cop state, to the police station, backing right up to the door and the three wheeler and just gunning it, sitting right outside in neutral, just

hammering on it. So the door was blocked. Nobody could come out. They were all standing at the door pointing at me i was just like all right here we go were you high oh yeah yeah real high so god that would have been some viral tiktok shit now now yeah so we're driving down the middle of the state highway um on these running through town running from the cops whatever we wanted to do didn't matter anymore so that night um where we had stayed at out in the country the cops show up my buddy takes off on a three-wheeler and dumps it. He ends up getting arrested. We end up walking away scot-free. At that point in time for me to get out of trouble if I was ever in it, I had a buddy that I had memorized everything about him.

His social security number, address, address full name wife's name everything like i had done it to make sure that if i was ever caught that i could use his stuff and get a buddy yeah i want to he didn't think you were his buddy so um so i walked away that day they'd questioned me and i gave them even though they knew you would back the three-wheeler up to the police station and revved it as loud as you could but they couldn't like figure out what to charge you with well no the people that the it was the city cops i had done that to the sheriff were the ones that showed up and got us so there was two different sets of police this day okay through the night um they were questioning me and i gave them somebody else's name and everything and just

walked away just left um well come to find out when we met my buddy later, he'd gotten interrogated by the local detective. Um, and that detective was the one that was on my case to arrest me, to get me. Um, and he's like, he kept telling him all this stuff. He kept telling him like, you got, uh, like, we know he's carrying a gun and we know he's been talking about going out like in a gunfight and all this. Some things that were only said to certain people that got back to him. So like he was telling him, he's like, you know what? He's like, if we get him backed in the corner, we're going to kill him. Like, we're not going to play with him.

We're not going to like, we're just cops were telling your buddy that yeah and were you telling those stories were you starting to have ideas like hey i'm gonna go out in a gunfight someday yeah oh shit you were in a trippy spot yeah yep yeah i was gonna go out with a bang so basically this this this this shit that started at five just became a cage for you or like seven pretty much i mean it might as i've that as an adult now that's how i see it yes and then and then here we are at 25 or whatever however old you are and you feel like you're completely caged in and you start thinking of the inevitables i'm going to be one day i'm going to run out of room. I'm going to be one day. I'm going to run out of room and I'm going to have to shoot my way out.

Yeah. And then do you know that you would lose that? Oh yeah. Yep. So it's just like, Hey, that's just how I'm going to go out. Yep.

Holy shit. No wonder you were doing so many drugs too, because you can't, that's something you can't just sit with sober. That'll fucking. Oh yeah. You have a panic attack. Yep. yeah you have a panic attack yep yeah did you ever have panic did you ever have panic attacks no no never did like um the one time i had an anxious attack was after i got out of prison but that was it i've never had them I just went with it. Like it's time to go. Let's go. Yeah. Okay. So, so, so we're at that, we're at that point where they're, they know you're, it's getting back to you that the cops it was time to go. Like I got to figure out something. Um, so we had a

friend who had a car, um, come to find out later, the car was still in her dad's name, but it was hers. Um, she was ready to take off too. She's like, I want to get out of here. I'm ready to go. So I was like, cool, let's all take off and go. Um, so we get in her car and one night we leave, let's all take off and go. So we get in her car and one night we leave, we just take off. We head over through Indiana where my dad's mom and dad had lived. I hadn't seen them since I was five years old, since they were together still. And I thought we'll swing by and see them, see what they can do for us. So like these idiotic thoughts right like who can help me out um so we go over we head that way we'll come to find out my grandma had died and my grandpa was in a nursing home um wow he was 90 some years old and he was dying um so i go see him um

nothing abnormal just hey he remembered like and through his haze, Hey, he remembered like, and through his haze of dying, like he remembered who, like, he's like, you're Pam's boy. I'm like, yeah,

like he knew what a trip you're at. You're an outlaw on the run and you go see a dude in a nursing home. Yeah. Randomly. Yeah. So, um, we leave there and we go all the way down through into Texas.

And I was like, wow, let's just go to Mexico. Let's leave. Like, let's get out of the country. Well, I didn't know what it was like and I didn't know what it took to get across the border. Right. I had no idea. I don't know shit about it. So I stop at some gas station South of San Antonio and I'm milling around in the gas station, trying to figure out who do I ask without alerting somebody? Like, I want to go across the border. What do I need to do? And I'm, I don't, I must've looked guilty or something. This lady comes around the corner and she goes, can I help you? And I'm like, well, I don't know, maybe. And she goes, are you in trouble?

Like, nah, I said, not really. I said, I just had a few questions. And she goes, about what? And I was like, going across the border, like what's it take and what's it like? So she tells me this big, long story about her husband who went across the border in his truck to see a friend. And they pulled him over. And where he had been hunting in the States, he forgot he had one shotgun shell in his glove box well they arrested him for it threw him in jail um she said it took her probably the truck it took her the truck and

probably close to fifteen thousand dollars before they could even before they even recognized and found him and released him. Damn. You're like, fuck Mexico. Yeah, pretty much. I'm like, is that easy? She goes, they will arrest you and you will be lost. She goes in and they'll do it for anything. She goes, it's not like here.

Like, OK, never mind then. So we leave. We take off again. And then this whole time, like, we realize, like, I can rob people's houses and I can rob people. Like, it's easy. Ed had taught me a long time ago how to rob drug dealers, that those are the people you want to rob. They're not going to tell anybody. They're not going to tell anybody. They're not going to the cops. He goes,

the only thing you have to worry about is if you get one, that's too big, they'll come get you or send their people to get you. Right. One or the other. Right. Right. So.

Which isn't really a threat if you're on the move. Yeah. Yeah. And we're leaving, we're going cross country. Like who's going to come after us cross country. If we don't, if we just rob a local drug dealer,

who cares? Like we'll, we'll move on yeah yeah um how many times do you think that you did that no more than 10 probably i can't it's not very it's not as many as what you think it's it's less but it's still like every four days yeah every handful of days you you you need to re-up cash and yeah did you ever do any good ones did you ever do any where you're like, holy shit, we got 10 grand and fucking some coke? We ended up robbing a house in Louisiana one time. And we were passing through and the lights were off and you'd knock and no one answers. So you just smash the door and you go in.

And my buddy was digging through their filing cabinet and he finds all these envelopes. Like a bunch of envelopes with thousand dollars in each one of them wow and i was like well take them grab them all let's go um we ended up with like eighty five hundred dollars or something out of this people's timing cabinet um guns you ever find you ever get guns oh yeah yeah yeah i'll do this story you'll hear of a few of them the one i used in my crime was one of them um we had we had quite a few in the back of the car when we got caught so so so you so you you abandoned mexico you're like okay no mexico well like fuck it let's go to

florida let's go hang out we'll go to florida and kick it and there's four of you there's there's two buddies and a girl yeah there's me no there's me and uh my girlfriend at the time okay and then my buddy and the girl that owned the car crazy so so we and no. And no one's like, hey, this is a bad idea. Take me home. You know what? Now that you look back on it, it's like, no one said that. That was, that was the weird thing. No one said that.

So we go to Florida for a little while. We leave Florida after a week or so. Staying in Daytona. We stayed in Daytona for a while for that week. Hang out on the beach, met some people. Ended up going from there up around Ohio to Detroit. Thought, let's go to Canada then. This will be awesome.

I just want to get out of the country. We got to Detroit, and i don't honestly to this day know what changed my mind about going to canada um but we didn't go so we go from there we go back across country all the way to vegas wow thought that's something that sounds like one place you shouldn't have mixed with right yeah shit you were home we go to vegas um we spend three or four days in vegas robbed as a couple people a couple houses um and end up leaving and thought well let's go check out yellowstone i've never seen yellowstone before let's see okay i like this turn so we go to yellowstone we go up through yellowstone um what kind of car uh pontiac

sunfire pontiac sunfire was is it did it break down on you guys at all not once just a good car yeah all right so we go up through yellowstone um we make it. You're going to show a picture of it. Check it out. It looked just like that, but it was red. Okay. Yep. We go up through Yellowstone through the night.

Stopped in the daytime at the park, at the headquarters there. Hung out. Oh, I guess it did. At that point in time, coming through the park, um, at the headquarters there, um, hung out. Oh, I guess it did at that point in time, coming through the park, we had a flat tire. We got a flat tire that night. Um, so we had to get it fixed that day, right there at the gas station at the park. Um, we get it fixed. Um, we leave and we're like, let's, what are we going to do? Is there something where we need to do something? I can't just keep traveling around and robbing drug dealers and houses.

Where are we going to settle at? What are we going to do? I have a trunk full of fucking guns and goods, jewelry, all kinds of stuff. We had robbed a house in georgia that ended up being a state trooper's house oh shit yeah um i took his revolver his service revolver um i ended up selling it in colorado to a gun store um wow they bought you you can sell just fucking stolen guns. Back then it didn't matter. I mean, back then there was no background checks or nothing.

Like pawn stores and stuff. Yeah. He knew that guy knew though. I'm almost sure he bought that gun because he knew what it was, um, to get it out of my hands. my hands. Um, I went in and showed it to him and come to find out, um, most police service revolvers have a stamp on the inside of the cylinder from what I understand. And they're stamped certain with something that would identify them, not just the serial number. Um, he opened that up and as soon as he closed it, he told me he'd give me $300 for it. Like no questions asked. Okay. Sounds good to me. Fine.

Take it off my hands. I don't care. I'm almost sure he knew what it was. So, um, we was like, Hey, let's go back home. Maybe it's calmed down by now. We've been gone for two months. Maybe it's okay. From Vegas. This is the discussion in Vegas. Yeah. Um, so we head up through Yellowstone.

We stay in Montana at, in Billings one night and we're like, Hey, we're in no hurry. Now we have money. We have guns. Like we're in no hurry. We don't need to keep running fast. We have guns. We're in no hurry. We don't need to keep running fast. So we leave there and I stay. We get to a little town called Big Timber and stay the night.

Went down to the local store. My ID was kind of skewed at that point, so you couldn't really tell that i wasn't 21 yet um that i was only i was at that point it was still only 20 because i didn't turn 21 oh till november fuck i thought you were older wow no i wasn't even of a i wasn't even 21 yet um so we go i go in every town you go to basically you're meeting the worst people because you guys need drugs. So at some point you get to a town after a few days, you're like, Hey, where can we get drugs? And what were you doing then? Were you doing any like Coke or wheat? No, actually I wasn't. Um, I wasn't doing anything other than smoking weed at that point. Like I wasn't doing

anything hard yet. Um, I had done Coke a few times um until then but like nothing major like i wasn't okay i didn't go on benders or nothing like we snorted coke a few times got high and moved on okay so um we go uh we stay at this motel that night and i'll i'll i remember waking up to a knock at the door and i was like that's weird and then all remember waking up to the knock at the door and I was like, that's weird. And then all of a sudden the phone rings at the same time. And I was like, Hmm. Wow. So I go over and answer the phone and a lady on the phone goes, Hey, I just need to warn you. There's a cop standing at your door. Oh, interesting. And I was like, huh? She goes, I didn't call you. I'm just letting you know this is the lady at the front desk.

There's a cop at your door. Wow. Okay, thank you. Hung up the thing, went over and looked out the peek hole, and he was standing out there with his revolver in his hand. And I was like, fuck, we're in trouble. We're in deep shit. They found us. Never once did I ever know how.

I never thought about how. Nothing. They were outside the door, and I was in trouble. never once did I ever know how I never thought about how nothing. I just, they were outside the door and I was in trouble. I woke everyone up real quick and I was like, look, get out the window. Let's go. If you want to go, go, I'm going out the window. I pushed the screen out, grabbed my shit, pushed the screen out, grabbed the keys, jumped out the window and ran to the car. It was parked in the back.

It was parked out right outside in the parking lot. But you didn't have to go by the cop. No, no. He was out in the hallway. Oh, other side of the door. Okay.

I was picturing a hotel where he's actually standing outside. No, no, no. Okay. Our door was on the inside. It was like a motel, motel eight or something like that.

I think it was. Sounds fancy. Yeah. Um, so we went, we jumped out hey i've done a ride along with cops before and they'll go to hotels and the lady at at the hotel will give them a list of everyone's name and the cop will just start running warrants on them yeah so what he did was he ran the license plate in the car that it was stolen yeah yeah he went by yeah that girl's dad had reported it stolen

yep to get his daughter back okay because he had heard who she was with okay so so we jump out the window and we hop in the car and take off well look i'm dumb i'm dumb in that part of the country right i didn't realize that exit ramps were so far apart um for you to get from one exit ramp to another and towns were so far apart and there's so much country up there pathetic road network in montana beautiful state but just the road network there's nowhere to run nowhere yeah so we hop on the road and i'm just i'm i'm out like it's time to go so we haul ass ass. Um, we, uh, down, down the interstate. Are you at big timber right there? Look at you. Yeah. Yeah. You go down the 90. Yeah. We're down 90 heading towards Billings right there where it says Columbus to your right. We had that way right

there. We had, so, um, we get, we get on the interstate and i realize that there's nobody behind me i'm good right so we just drop down to cruising speed we take off and um we're riding along and all of a sudden there's a cop behind me like he comes out of nowhere i'm like fuck well there's no exits to get off i'm like uh i don't know what to do so we take off um somewhere between there and that and columbus um there was a there was a line of traffic kind of backed up at this bridge and i none i didn't think nothing about it my first thought was is they're stopping us because of me like i'm in deep shit that might have been where it was at across the river right there. Traffic was backed up and there's emergency vehicles everywhere. And I'm like, oh fuck,

they set up a roadblock for me. So we get closer and closer and closer. And I start to get across the bridge and there's a cop standing there on our side of the bridge and uh he pulls out his gun as we go by and points it at us no shit i just blew right through it i just kept right on going didn't think about it well come to find out it wasn't for me um i wasn't that special yet um it was for a fatality accident that was on the other side a camper had hit the bridge and had killed the family at that same time. Why did he pull his gun out? Because he was trying to stop me.

They had already radioed ahead for me. Because I would still be, at this point in time, now there's two or three cops behind me, state cops. So I get through that and I take off running and we're heading down the road and cops are coming out everywhere. And I mean, everywhere they're on the frontage road, cause they have roads off the side of the highway that run right with them. There's cops passing me on that side of the road on the frontage roads. There's probably five or six cops behind me. We make it all the way down to Columbus.

And I thought that's, that's an exit ramp. I can get off and run through this town and hopefully maybe lose them. Right. That was my thought. I hop off in Columbus. I end up down in town. I was running through some softball fields to some people's yards, trying to lose the cops. You're driving your car through people's yards okay um

cops are everywhere i mean everywhere at this point they're all over the all over the streets as we're going in and out of places um we get i get back to the entrance ramp to go towards, to get off there, to keep going the same way we were going on 90. Um, and there's cops sitting everywhere. And I'm, I don't know what,

I'm starting to panic, right? I'm like, I don't know what to do. Um, just keep running. What are your, what are the people in the car saying to you?

Nothing, not a word. No one's quite a word. So i turn the music up just drive the one thing i've always i have been good at in my whole life is driving like i'm i'm a decent driver um and that's what i was doing like i was driving like let's go so we hop back 90, start heading down towards Billings again. Um, which now I understand this is where I'm at is going towards Billings, but there's a turnoff to take you to a town called Fromberg. Um, yeah, it'd be right there at Laurel. I think we take that road right there. Um, and it crosses a bridge right there over the river.

And I remember that bridge was under construction on one side. And it was the side that we were heading towards was closed. So the other side was open. So they were only opening it to traffic one way. Yeah. Well, I didn't stop. I just went out onto the bridge. Luckily, there was no one on it until I got to the other end and they were just starting to come onto the bridge.

And I remember the lady's face as I got closer. I could see it. Like you're basically on a head on. Well, yeah, we're going I'm going head on. We're going we're going to hit. I'm going to move you so um she ends up backing up off the bridge thankfully she was the only one there so she got out of the way um we went right on through further up the road the cops pull out stop sticks on me um those are like a strip of tacks or something the strip of spikes um i go off the side of the road and go around them. And then I do it one more time too, later on before we turned off the road. So we get farther up and I'm going to,

I don't know where you're at on the map, but there's a little town called Fromberg and Red Lodge. I don't know how far we went, wherever it's at. I don't know if maybe that wasn't there it is yep right there wow you went far yeah yeah we went over how long is this whole chase um it was over 130 miles two hours yeah this is like duke's a hazard shit yeah so i turn off here in fromberg and go down like i was heading towards wyoming i wanted to go towards wyoming is what i thought leave state right dumb thinking as a kid not knowing just leave state so i turned down there and i find the first road that goes

off to the right because i was running out of gas um and when i looked up in the distance there was lights everywhere in front of me followed you wow yeah they were everywhere all over me were any of the cops from the initial pursuit still on you i don't know oh okay and i have no idea which ones were which and how many times they had changed in and out. Like, I just knew they were there. So we turn off a side road and it's gravel. And I was like, look, I'm going to stir up dust. We're going to get down to the end or out here on this gravel road. You guys stay in the car and tell them I made you to go that I have a gun.

You guys will be free. They'll question you. You'll be able to move on. I made you go yeah um so i thought well if i stir up dust then i'll just kick the car and park and i'll hop out and take off running yeah i've done it before it's not a big deal okay so in a town with a population of 12 this time yeah pretty much so and actually we're not even in the town anymore. We're outside of it.

So we're on the middle of nowhere. This is just panic mode, I think, at this point. Like anything, whatever it takes to get away. So towards the end of that road, I realize it doesn't go anywhere. It dead ends into the side of a mountain. And there's two houses. There's a house and a trailer house. And I'm like, well, all that shit that I had said, here it comes. It's time.

I turned the car over to the trailer house and thought it's easier to defend if they ever want to come in on me. So I went. So you had a gun on you. Oh yeah. Yeah. I was, I had it in my lap. The whole time you were running. Yep. So we hit the, we hit the front yard and I put, I throw it in park and I hop out the car and take off running to the house. And, uh, I looked up as I got to the door to go in and there stands a lady in her door. And I just threw the gun up and I told her to get back in the fucking house now. And she backed up and started screaming. She went in the house and I went in.

And when I went in, I looked real quick and there was a guy pulling on his, he was pulling on jeans is what he was doing right at the hallway. What time was it? Probably eight, maybe in the morning. Okay. Yeah, it was morning. It was early. Um, he was pulling on his pants and I was like, I just turned and swung the gun at him. And I told him, get on the fucking floor now, get on the floor. And he took off running down the hallway. And I was like, fuck, here we go. So I go running through the house after him. And

when I got to the back, he was going out the back door. So I go running through the house after him. And when I got to the back, he was going out the back door. And I don't know to this day. I know there was a scuffle. I know he ended up on the floor underneath of me. And he kept trying to grab the gun. Oh, shit.

And I just put it up in the air and I just shot. I just shot a hole right through his roof. And he just dropped to the ground and he was like, I just put it up in the air and I just shot, I just shot a hole right through his roof and he just dropped to the ground and he was like, I'm done. So, all right, get, get back out in the living room. Now, he ended up having, they ended up having two daughters that were home. One was still asleep and the other one was in the shower getting ready for work.

Holy shit. Brought everyone into the living room. The other ones followed me in so now there's four of us and four of them in the trailer um there's cops everywhere god cops everywhere outside um hey um i gotta how are you for time right now i'm fine you are fine i have to i have to do you care if we do you have to pee? I don't, but you can, it'll be fine. All right. We can pause. Okay. Give me, give me one second. I'm going to play a little commercial here. Just this little commercial. It's called my pee commercial. Give me, give me 70 seconds. I'm going to go pee in the yard. Give me 70 seconds. You don't even

have to want to do CrossFit. You don't have to want to be a coach. You don't have to want to be a trainer. If you just want the operating manual to your body, it's not just forging elite fitness. It's the operating manual to the human genome. You'll take this CrossFit level one seminar and you will walk away inspired from the second you leave. Your entire life will change. You will make significant changes to your life because you are excited. You will start tweaking with your diet. You'll start tweaking with your movement. You'll start tweaking with who you hang out with. Everything will take a shift. For some people, it'll be massive. For some people, it'll be a little bit. No matter what, you'll move towards a better life. what, you'll move towards a better life. Everyone is going to sense it in you that you are more accountable, more personally responsible, happier, more helpful, more thoughtful human beings. And you'll be nicer to look at. You might talk too much shit about CrossFit, but you don't even have to want to do CrossFit.

You don't have to want to be a coach. You don't have to want to be a trainer. If you just want the operating manual to your body, it's not just Forging Elite Fit. You good? I'm good. Listen to this story in peace. I don't want to be in a rush.

This is a good one. I got some branches in my hair from peeing in the yard. All right. Look, we ain't even made it the prison yet all right okay so so you you enter this house and you basically secure the house after a tussle and it goes yeah um so is that bad by the way that the gun went off is that that's like already a bad sign like for the like that's like in your in your court case now hey he shot the gun in the house yeah that's bad it's not a good thing okay um just having it's not a good thing we actually got that gun out of a safe out of a house in wyoming and it was somebody's army service revolver or service gun it was their 1911 a145 so i took their safe um which they had left open i don't know why i was gonna ask how'd you get into the safe it's a safe for a reason right but it was okay so we took it

um i took the gun out and then i threw their safe in the in a lake somewhere so you know there's some there's some crawdads that made a nice sweet home out of that that was probably a cool thing you did yeah it wasn't a cool thing so um so i get the one girl was going to work she goes i'm probably not going to make it can i call my work and call off yes call your work call off no shit yeah i apologize i apologize to them people a lot i kept telling my sorry that they were involved in this i didn't mean for him to be i just happened to choose the wrong house the other house was empty oh shit yep so how long did that standoff go on for nine hours you were in there for nine hours how do you talk

to them um just kept telling my sorry no how do you talk to the cops during the standoff oh through the phone we talked on the phone like a landline yeah landline NBC news had called me they got a hold of these people's number when they found out the house I was in got their phone number and called me I didn't believe it, so it was. I thought it was a trick, so I hung up on them. They called back. Look, we're serious. We're NBC News.

We want the story. Like, what's going on? It's dumb. Believe me. I was young and dumb. I said some dumb shit. I just want to be left alone. That was what I said.

Like, I just want to be left alone. Leave me alone. Well, that's a little late for that i know the cops pissed that they were interfering with the fucking i don't know i don't know like a weird fucking this believe me it was really it's really odd especially now that i'm i'm an adult and grown up and think about it i'm like it's really weird that the news called me first like it was nbc news from new jersey that called me first that it was NBC news from New Jersey that called me first before the cops did what's that movie where the couple goes on that fucking robbing spree and the news is all over them the whole time it's like some um only me and you would know it you

got to be kind of older to know it what the fuck was that movie uh who's the guy who made the jfk movie um oh uh he's got the rattlesnake guys the director with the black eyes i know who you're talking about um i can't think of his name but i know who you're talking about natural born killers natural born killers harrison or woody harrelson yeah this is kind of crazy like that the news is like what the fuck i know it was weird it's weird now that i think back on a lot of they haven't changed they're still scumbags at nbc they're still scumbags of the highest order crazy okay so i talked to the cops we we didn't go like i let the family go like guys go get out um so we negotiate like not negotiate basically there was no negotiation you're going to come out like that's what There was no negotiation. You're going to come out.

Like that's, what's going to happen. Um, and we're going to give up. Um, so through this whole thing, this guy in the middle of everything goes, Hey, he goes, are the cops going to come in here when, when, when this is all done? And I said, yeah, he goes, um, are they going to search and stuff? I said, well, yeah, yeah they're gonna search for evidence depending on thinking maybe we may have brought stuff in here and hit it or something oh i love this i love where this is i'm telling you what it was the weirdest moment like i've had some weird shit happen to me in my life this was weird do you mind if I hide my weed? I was better than his kiddie porn collection. I'm like,

what can I hide my weed? And I'm like, yeah, cause I don't want you to get in trouble. That's, that's cool. We go to his bedroom. I walk him back to his bedroom and he gets in his closet and he pulls out

three grocery bags full of baggies of weed. I'm like, he was a deal. like this motherfucker's a dealer yeah you fucking dick i know exactly what you are oh this is just my personal stash the fuck hey i wonder if i wonder if he thought that when when you first came there if you were fucking like someone that he had been stiffed it makes you wonder like yeah it makes you wonder now right like as i say this i'm like man i wonder if he thought i was somebody coming to take like you either fucked up robbing money or i'm robbing you so yeah we said we hide all his weed up in his wood burner so nobody can find it um he has he's got scales he's got everything so so yeah we we take care of that for him let them all go um so we end up one by one end up coming out and leaving um who is the last one to come out me

and and at any point we think about changing your mind like what happened to the plan to shoot your way out i don't know it changed somewhere in there um i don't know i i don't know if it was just finally felt like living i don't know i i really don't can't tell you that to this day i just i just knew coming out was right it felt like what i needed to do so and how long does it take for to do that for all four people to come out i know that the standoff was nine hours but from when the first person does the girl go out first uh yeah the young girl with the car went out and then matt went out my buddy and are you watching them out the window yeah because i wanted to know what like the part of the negotiation was

that nobody gets roughed up like we're not coming out and getting roughed up on the ground by your cops. Like this shit's going to go down. We're going to be okay. Um, and everyone's fine. And I come walking out and I'd forgot, I didn't have a belt on that day. And my shorts that I'd put on and they were really big. Um, and I remember walking across the lawn at the yard towards them and I, my shorts started to fall down and i thought fuck while they're falling down and i'm widening my legs out trying to keep them up and i went to put my hands down and the guy goes keep your hands up do not reach for your shorts it's like okay so and then like i'm not making light of what i did believe me i regret i regret traumatizing those people to this day i do it sounds like it was the most friendly fucking home invasion of

all time well during court the guy actually says like during my sentencing him he shows up he's at my sentencing and he shows up and he's like, he goes, look, he goes, I don't think they're bad kids. He goes, I really don't. He goes, they apologized to us numerous times. They were super nice. He goes, I think they just got in over their head. Wow. He says, if it was up to me, he says, I would like to take him across the creek and just beat his ass he said he said but it's not he goes i just want you guys to know he goes i just think they got caught up wow so yeah it's not it's not like you put a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach and then they built a bronze statue of you in new york city celebrating you as a hero. Yeah. George Floyd.

So I ended up with, uh, 25 on sentencing day. They gave me 25 years for aggravated kidnapping. Did you have a lawyer or just public defender? Just a public defender. They don't give two shits about you, right?

No. What was the max? Very seldom. Will you ever find one that does? So what's the, what's the max, um, you, you could have gotten? Very seldom will you ever find one that does. What's the max you could have gotten? Life. I could have been sentenced to death on that crime.

Home invasion while they're home, burglary, holding women and children. They got me for robbery, which they ended up pleading out the robbery, but the aggravated kidnapping with the gun spec added to it. All of the charges could have i think it would have had to have been extenuating circumstances for it to be that but it went all the way to life and then there was a possible like it could have cost me death because montana's hardcore yeah yeah so and do you know that going into it are you shitting yourself yeah because it was on the indictment charges uh what your possible charges what your possible sentencings could be but like it was never i never ever thought that it would get that far so i never really dawned on me that i mean there's actually the possibility of death tied to this. So they arrest you and you go to a county jail?

I go to a county jail, small county jail, and Red Lodge was the name of the town. From a lot of things that happened here in Ohio, they questioned me a lot about it. They'd actually sent some federal, the FBI down to talk to me about a few things. I actually sent some federal, the FBI down to talk to me about a few things. They let me actually read the teletype for the stolen car. And it had a whole bunch of things on it about me that I was a possible, that I was possibly with the car. There was all kinds of things written about me, how dangerous I was. And I was carrying a gun and I had done a carjacking and a robbery and like all these things were listed of what possibilities of me, um, were they accurate?

No, a couple of them were, um, the carjacking was not, um, I wasn't even in the state when that happened and the robbery of the bank wasn't true either. Um, Oh, that would be, that would be something for the resume. I always kind of wanted to do that. Yeah. Add that on. Right. Yeah.

But there was a, there was a line in there that, that had listed shoot to kill if must. Wow. So, so that was, there was a, there was an order out like that. So, so that was, there was, there was an order out like that. Like if I get, if I get pinned that don't, don't take any chances basically. So how long before you're put in this County jail to your sentencing? I got, we were locked up in August. This happened in August and we were, I was sentenced in December 23rd.

And does your mom or your dad or anyone reach out to you when you're in the county jail? Your sister? No. Any family? No. Do you call any of them? I tried to call my mom once or twice, but but nothing do you cry when you're in there no at this point it was it was long beyond that so what a fucking scary place to be as a young man yeah i turned 21 and counting jail there before your sentencing yeah and and dude is there even a case or is it just does that six months is there even a case or do you just plead guilty i pled

guilty we pled out so it basically takes five or six months even just to get your sentencing even if you just come out with your hands up and plead guilty what a fucking shit show yep so and then and then so the judge says to you i'm sorry you were talking about how much he sent i got 25 i got 25 for the aggravated kidnapping and then 10 10 years for the gun um or 30 for the crime five for the gun with 10 suspended is what i got so that's 35 what does 10 suspend mean if you're good to let you with 10 suspended is what i got so that's 35 what is 10 suspended mean if you're good to let 25 no 10 suspended means after you discharge your sentence basically they hold it like probation time over your head so 35 years plus 10 years of probation 25 with 10 years with 10 years of probation basically so but at the time i got sentenced what happened was so whatever your crime your time was you had

to do a quarter to go to the parole board and then half to discharge which is doing your you only do half your time to be able to get out so i would have had to do six years three months to go to the parole board um and then you did I would have had to done 12 and a half years to completely discharge my sentence, my 25 and then get out and do 10 years more probation. And then when you're on probation, basically if you just fuck up anything, they can send you back for that 10 years.

Yeah. Like you, like you sign your name wrong on a ballot, you're fucking toast. Yep. Mine was a little different because I got an interstate compact back to Ohio. They didn't let me out got an interstate compact back to Ohio. They didn't let me out in Montana. They released me to Ohio. So they treated it like parole. My first parole,

because I got out on parole, they treated it like parole, obviously. But when they discharged my sentence and sent me to the 10 years suspended, Ohio doesn't treat it that way. That's not a deal to Ohio. Ohio just like, look, it's over your head. Stay out of trouble. That's it. You don't have to report. I didn't have to do anything. My time was just there as long as I stayed out of trouble.

And what year is this? 96. 96? 96. 96. And so you basically started this, you started a prison sentence. Yep.

Sure did. I, I got moved from County jail in February to the state penitentiary. Do you get any tattoos in prison? They're all from prison. All of those. Yeah. So not a single one of those is illegal. I do. i have two um

since i've gotten out the mama's little convict right here yeah and uh the praying i have a set of praying hands with a gun in them on the back with a rosary and and but so it's not legal to get tattoos in prison is it nope so one day you have no tattoos and the next day you have thug life on your stomach in prison you don't get in trouble for that the guards aren't like what the i got in trouble for that one exactly actually i got caught given they were giving me the tattoo when i got caught god i so don't understand prison where could someone fuck it fucking possibly be giving you a tattoo that's not being watched um at this point in time when i did it i was so what happened was i went to the state pen um due to over Montana Montana

due to overcrowdedness in June of that year i got moved to Texas to a private penitentiary um they call his name another fucking joke people another fucking joke privatizing prisons i'm all for privatizing everything but not prisons yep give me a fucking break now all of a sudden there's people making money you have a fucking a lobby that wants to put pulled people in jail yeah it's disgusting it's a house it's basically a a housing unit for us. That's it. That's all it was. So they paid them so much per day per inmate to house us. So that's where we were at. So we went to Texas.

Texas was set up with a bunch of like, you had its main building. And then you had like seven separate outhouses. main building and then you had a like seven separate outhouses um and each one of those had two sides to it um and there was 24 12 bunks 24 beds in each side um but the guard set at the front and then there was two gates and then all the beds were along the side so there was parts of it where nobody could see you so you just sit back up design this thing this thing sounds like a joke it was so you sit back well when we got there there was no fences this place had just been built when we got there you weren't actually with no fences. No, there was yard time. You could just run off. Yeah.

We weren't even allowed to go out to outside yet. Um, we were mixed with people from Colorado and Hawaii, um, at this facility. Um, and the Hawaiians were so happy to be in this place out of, off the Island,

out of their prison that they actually put the fences up around us. The inmates built the fence. They made them build the fence yeah other inmates god can you imagine being a prisoner hawaiian they have to put you on a plane and fucking fly you to another prison yep god that sounds like a waste of taxpayers money. How so you were there and literally how long does it take to do a thug life tattoo? We had started it that night and then all of a sudden, for some odd reason, the cops come walking in. Which was weird that they did, but they come walking in. So we threw the gun and I kind of stood up and turned around, kind of hem-hawed around. Well, then they brought the captain in and he's like,

put us up against the wall, right? And he didn't even know, I don't even think he knew what they were looking for or what they were doing in there. He's looking around and he had his cops looking around and all kinds of stuff. We didn't even know I had the tattoo on my stomach, but the ink was still fresh. It hadn't been wiped off. And I had my arms over it like this. And he goes, he goes, they come up and they pat me down and he goes, turn around. And I turned around and I was standing like this. He goes, put your arms out.

And I went like this and there was ink smeared all over both arms and down my side. And he goes, look again, there's got to be a tattoo gun there. He didn't even know what they were looking for. So they ended up finding it over in the corner somewhere next to somebody else's shit where my buddy had thrown it. So I didn't have it finished there. I had it started there, but when we all met back up at another, when we got transferred again to Tennessee, um, we met back up and I did it there, but there was different. We had cells when we got

to Tennessee. So, so we could just do it in a cell and have somebody watch for us. Was that prison in Texas just a complete shit show yeah bad bad shit show i i i did more drugs in that prison than i did on the street you're not exaggerating no i'm not kidding at all i can remember carrying i i was at one point for six months i was eating i was taking 12 to 14 pills a day, every day. What? Yeah. I was carrying ounces of weed in from the maintenance area that were coming in from outside from the trash crew. Bottles of Everclear.

Guards were bringing in quarter ounces of crank to us of meth. It was a dirt poor town, a dirt poor town named spur texas oh poor the implication being that when people are that poor they'll do anything for money like money money wins yep and they did did anyone ever get in trouble while you were there did the feds ever oh yeah we guys yeah there was a couple guys that had walked away when the fences weren't up. One of them, to the day that I got out eight years later, he was still free. But, I mean, did any of the guards ever get in trouble? Did they ever have any –

Oh, yeah, there was a couple of them. One of them was a nurse that my buddy had ended up – he had ended up marrying her. And she would, she had gotten in trouble. She hadn't gotten in trouble there. She got in trouble later on. Wait a second. Your,

your buddy had a relationship with a nurse there and married her. Yeah. Wow. You. It gets, it gets better. Don't worry. Wow. You. It gets it gets better. Don't worry. Wow. What you just said. Remember what you just said. OK, I will. Wow. Wow. We're all smiling because this story leads to something and it's it's getting there. wow are they still together i don't know i have no idea she got in trouble because she was a nurse and she was uh taking scripts from a doctor and writing them uh-huh um and then fulfilling those scripts and then giving those drugs to another girl who was a guard in montana when we all got

back there and then that girl was bringing those drugs into him what a fucking racket god god the world is so fucked up yeah so um we'd uh we've been through a riot one riot when we were down there um one guy neil his name was neil he got beaten ahead with a weight he died while we were there in that riot what causes a riot two two prisoners it's like a food fight in a high school cafeteria that actually started over a drug deal oh somebody didn't pay somebody or somebody didn't give somebody something they were supposed to get so those two guys got into it well then his boys got into it with the other guys's boys and it just started on the yard and went crazy well next thing you know it turns, it's not even about that anymore. It's about the prison.

It's about they're holding us down and it's really awful here. And we're not going to eat your food anymore, whatever it may be. They ended up firing off rubber bullets into the crowd. How long is a riot? That one lasted, I don't know. It probably lasted. Well, we were out there from the riot itself. Probably didn't last very long by the time they started shooting bullets at people, rubber bullets.

Like five minutes? Maybe 10, 15 at the most. But like we were on the yard for a long time, like a long time. They secured us, made sure everyone was coming in per building in a certain way like it was we were out there for six seven hours maybe so fucking prison riot dude you've been in a prison riot i've actually been in two so what a fucking crazy thing to have on your resume yeah a prison and uh were you used when that shit goes down do you just look for cover i was actually i just wanted to be in it it didn't matter we were shaking fences and throwing rocks and oh so everyone's just it's just a

i was far i was far from being rehabilitated yet i was i was ready to go whatever it was let's do it so did you get shot with any rubber bullets no i did not no i when they start firing that's when you take cover fuck that i ain't getting shot so but and one dude died in that right yeah he got beaten ahead with a weight by the other guy damn damn are you training at this time in prison? Do you work out? We were working out. Yeah, we were. We were lifting weights.

Did you like it? What's up? Did you like it? Yeah, I liked it. I'd never lift weights before until I went to prison. I'd done a little bit of weightlifting in high school for basketball, but nothing major. So, like, I didn't really know enough about it. But, like, these guys started getting into, like, in prison you do a lot of power lifting so like that's what you do deadlift squat bench press deadlift squat bench press

and you have good teachers in there yeah there was a bunch of old school people um that followed louis now that i know who louis simmons is like okay so like they were following louis when louis was in his younger years so um and then we always got somebody always had a had a paper from the uh national uh powerlifting association would come in so you'd be able to read it and see what was going on in the world of powerlifting and so so i got into. And you started getting strong. Yeah. Yeah. So it was fun. I liked it. I didn't mind it. I'd always just been played basketball or something. So I was always just, you know, I was always athletic.

I just never lifted weights. So. And would you do that in prison to play basketball? Yeah. Yeah. We played basketball, played handball. Oh yeah. Handball.

Forgot about that. Or do you still play handball. Oh yeah. Handball. Forgot about that. Do you still play handball? No, I haven't played since I got now. You probably have a wall in your gym you can play on. Yeah, I do actually. Crazy. Handball is a tough fucking game. I love it. I loved playing it. It was great. Okay. So, so you get moved from there. Yeah we get we get shifted from there we have to leave there um they take all of the sex offenders um and they take them to arizona to a cca joint we call it corrections corporation of america is who it is um another private facility and then we all get shipped to tennessee all us non- offenders. So we go to Tennessee. Well, the

prison we need to go to isn't available yet. Uh, they're waiting to move another state out of it before they can move us into it. Um, so we have to go to another facility that we're not going to be permanently housed in. Um, so we get there. Well, a lot of the people are already from Montana, um, are already there waiting to go to. So they just intermix us with them. Well, at the same time, we're mixed in with people from Tennessee and Indiana, I think, but the people running the place inmate wise are all from Tennessee. Um, and that place is a free for all like full on free for all. Um, it's,

they're selling drugs across the chow line, right? When you get your tray, if you need something, you pay them, they'll give it to you right there. Oh, the employees, the employees there. Yeah. Yeah. That place was like free for all. Um, Saw a captain call an inmate into a cell, told him, come on in here. I'm going to beat your ass. The inmate goes in and they start boxing. The other guards come in with tear gas, just open the door and tear gas them both. I mean, just like it was all out like crazy. It's funny.

I remember hearing Tyson tell some stories from prison have you ever heard some of his stories yep and i was always wondering if they were true so those stories are probably true yeah yeah they are it's it's wild like it's its whole oh it has its own hierarchy it has its own has its own government inside did you were you able to stay out of trouble when you were in there physical trouble um i mean yeah i only got in one fight and it wasn't even a fight it was a child molester that had called me a punk one day and i walked in and caught him when he was on his way out and grabbed him in a headlock and just started beating him and do you kind of do you have to do that at that point the other guys can't see a child molester call you a punk yeah especially that so

so that needed to be done but that's the only fight i got in i never gotten any other fights i was always i don't know i just i was always respectable i guess like always respect you know what i mean i never had that problem with anybody so and and when you so when you when you move are you made you make friends in there i'm trying to figure out so when you go from this place in texas to this place in tennessee like do you have friends are there like five guys and you're like hey let's stick together in here on this move no um it's pretty open like it's not it's can be clicky. The one thing I think about moving around that really helped was the fact that we were all from one state. Okay. So like we were all together,

you know what I mean? Like, Hey, we're all stuck in this together, but it's not us five against everybody else. That's from the same state. Like we all got housed together. We all were in the same, in the same blocks, you know, in the same units. So it, I think it helped out a lot. Do you have any friends still from your prison days? No, none. I don't. It was something that I had one. And when I left, he had, he had a kidney disease and he was in, he had been transferred to Oregon to a medical facility because he had to have a dialysis three days a week.

Yeah. They were tired of hauling him out of the prison three days a week to the hospital. Yeah. And they moved him so he could do his dialysis in the prison. days a week to the hospital yeah um and they moved him so he could do his dialysis in the prison and uh he's died since he finally it finally got him damn that's it okay so you so you moved to tennessee it's just a free-for-all yeah yeah so we leave there like that or is it unsafe no i loved it it's great i love it

oh yeah it's bring on the chaos i love it at this point um we get finally get moved to our new one to the new place sorry and that's just shitty prisoning like if the prison system were to you could you fix it i don't know if it's fixable now there's so much money involved in it oh it's just corrupt as fuck i think that's the problem is there's so much money involved in it now i don't think you could fix it it would have to be stripped completely um i mean that is basically what it is what you're saying it's corrupt money still runs everything in there it does um who's getting who's making how much so so we leave there um we go to tennessee we go to our new our new digs where we're going to be at um at that point trying to set up new lines for drugs and everything um i end up having to withdraw

because we don't have anything so i end up sober for a couple weeks trying you know i mean i end up withdrawing until we get new lines um and what was your drug were you on heroin at the time no no the only thing at that point that heavy i'd done i'd done i was really big into pills narcotics at that point um smoking weed um shooting meth shooting meth oh yeah wow yeah dirty needles yep fuck man holy shit okay so you go through withdrawals yeah we go through withdrawals i had to go through withdrawals one other time when we move um from there back to montana um same exact thing new prison we needed lines so but uh we go there um. Nothing real major happens while we're there. Guy busts the TV. Just normal stories, normal shit. They want us to lock down. We're standing in the middle of a riot,

a ready to riot over making us lock down. Just some normal prison stories. Nothing major. Then they end up building a new CCA prison in Montana. Another private. So the private guys built another place to make money. Yep. They built it right in Montana state, though, right there in their state. So how much it costs to build one of those prisons?

I don't know. Dollars. It's a lot. I'll bet. And is that the last place you go? No. I go from there back to the state prison, actually. Okay, so you go to Montana, and how is that?

It sucks. It's garbage. What do you got there 12 12 million dollars jail square foot assuming face brick with concrete block backup contracting that's not oh that sounds cheap yeah doesn't sound bad at all does it no um so we go back there um it sucks because they brought in a bunch of outsiders as upper management part of it to run it, but they hired local people. So until we got lines established for where we're going to have the drugs brought in or who's playable and who's not, it sucked. It sucked for a minute.

But then the lines got up and running and we were good. We had drugs. Lines are just ways to get stuff from the outside world into the prison, into the prison. So, um, so we're there. Um, the second ride I was in was there. Um, and that was over drugs again, over the, they had the guy that was supposed to be bringing drugs in.

Um, they had detained him. And whatever happened with him and his girl and getting them and all this, it didn't happen. And everyone was kind of strung out. So everyone decided to cause a ruckus. So hung blankets up over the windows. Weren't going to lock down in our cells, keep the cops off the block, all that stuff.

So they end up dropping tear gas on us through the holes in the roof. Cause they have shoots through the roof where they can just go to the roof and just drop tear gas through, through the holes. They did that to get us all subdued and make sure that we were under control so you've been tear gassed also yeah oh yeah i've been tear gassed twice we got tear gassed one day when a guy it wasn't us got tear gassed we got tear we were having to be in the hallway had a guy that held another inmate hostage in the hallway while we were in tennessee um and stabbed

him in the leg and was holding him on the ground with the knife in his leg and we were walking down the hallway when it happened and he uh he they just dropped gas on him they just shoot gas down the hallway they didn't care who was in there does that shit suck pretty bad oh it's bad it's awful real bad and then basically you just left there to deal with it on your own yeah yeah they they come in and they rush and try to take out whoever's non-important that isn't involved in the deal and they ended up taking him and so forth but yeah god that sounds fucking horrible being tear gassed in prison yeah it's not fun at all so okay so you're montana and how long are you in montana we were there from 99

from 99 until i decided to get sober on my own um in 2002 six months before i was to go to the parole board because of that you knew you were the parole board was coming up because you wanted to show. I had told myself that I had told myself six months before I go to the parole board, I'm going to get sober so I can get out. So I can get out and maybe make a couple big drug deals and maybe hit the road and get out of here. Oh, you mean on the outside, make a couple of big drug deals on the outside okay yeah i had all these righteous plans right like i wasn't going to stick around i was going to hit the road and be gone and i was going to do it right this time when i leave do you have any contact with the

outside world during all these years i have contact every now and then with my mom um up until this point um at this point i meet this is where i told you remember what you said earlier yeah i met my wife in prison yes was she a guard yeah your wife was a guard at the prison yeah how do you fucking talk to a guard at the prison fucking very bravely because they could go one of two ways yeah like she could just report you for like looking at her wrong in your toast right how close were your parole six months when you met her yeah oh that's fucking sounds risky is all it was it was highly. So we had talked a few times. Sorry, one more thing. Had you ever heard of anyone else meeting besides your friend who met the nurse at the other prison?

There was always stories that it happened, but nothing that had ever went to the extent that we were about to go to. Wow. And this is your current wife? Yeah. Does she still work in a prison? No. No, she's a nurse at the local hospital. But did she want to be a cop?

No, she actually was home from school at this point in time. She was 21 at the time. She was home from school and she didn't know what she wanted to do with her life. And the best paying job in town was being a prison guard at the local prison. No shit. A 21 year old girl as a prison guard. Yeah. So we met, I seen her for the first time, I think in February when they were on tour

for where they're going to work. I'd seen her in the crowd. Oh, like visit college day but she was visit prison day yeah so she was part of the crowd um i said look at this comment uh female prison guards what a genius idea this fucking world we live in do you not understand men yeah so so i see her well the next time i see her she was on the floor working she was making around her round she was walking through and i almost run into her how long how long was that between the first time you saw her and the

second time you saw her about a month a little over a month maybe something like that and you're still young you're in your 20s 26 i think okay point so you see a girl just in regular clothes and was she walking around with like a group no japanese they had sent her in by herself to do her rounds no the first time oh yeah the first time she was with the whole group of new hires they were all coming through as new hires just to see they were taking a tour of the prison because they they had all applied to work there any other girls in the group um maybe one that i remember for sure but like i didn't really pay attention after i seen her was her dad a prison guard no dad her dad was a farmer. All right. All right. I can, I can, I can, I can make that work. Okay. Okay. So, um, I was walking in one day from coming back from the recs out at recreation and, um, I had my head down and I turned to go up the stairs to my cell and she was coming down.

You're allowed as a prisoner to do that. Like there's areas, like it's like high school, like, okay, I'm done with basketball. Now allowed as a prisoner to do that. Like there's like, it's like high school, like, okay, I'm done with basketball. Now I'm going back to my cell. No, you only go back when they tell you, you go.

Okay. So they, so every, all the dudes are walking back. Yeah. So everyone comes. No, I was only coming back because I'd worked there.

So I, I was after everyone had already come back. I've come back on my own. Cause I worked out there at the gym. Okay. So I was coming back and i about run into her and i told her excuse me sorry and she walked away and was heading towards the door and i just happened to stop stare at her butt that was it when's the last time you'd seen a

girl before then was it her no no there was other guard prison guards that were there but none of them had ever looked like she looked so right they look like prison guards they look like prison guards and this one looked like a girl she looked like a girl yeah i i can see i can see it i know exactly what you're talking about so so from there and she had all the shit on she had a gun on and at this point they didn't have her in uniform yet she was still in uh jeans and a sweatshirt they hadn't given them their uniform yet and she was by herself yeah this this is as fucking crazy as not having fences around the prison you have a female in there that's 21 years old without the fucking uniform yeah so if i was that if i was her dad i would fucking beat someone's ass. Someone, whoever gave her that job needs to have their ass kicked in.

Yeah. So we, uh, it was just weird. Like you pick up on things like she's always tends to be where I was at. She was always showing up where I was or where she was at. I always made sure that I was there. Um,

and it was just feelings. Well, one night we had two separate sides to the prison of housing units. Well, one side of there's three places in one side, three different cell blocks. One of those cell blocks due to overcrowdedness was housing the female prisoners. And when female prisoner movement happens happens they lock the whole prison down smart that's the first smart thing that i've heard happen at the prison yet they lock the whole thing down so they can move the females so they move the females and uh one night while i was

stuck at the wreck out at wreck ready to go home and i couldn't go anywhere well she was there we were the only two out there is wreck meaning it's is, is that all outdoors? No, it's in, it's indoor. Um, it's the basketball side. Um, then we had two of them. We had the basketball side and then we had the, uh, weightlifting side. There was weights and a handball court on the other side. Okay. So like a shitty YMCA. Yeah. Bare minimum YMCA.mca okay um so i was out there well i started talking with her and she started talking with me and we just started walking in the hallway talking about things um like what what do you say to her about my plans after i get out oh just stuff like i don't know dude i hadn't been around or had to hit on a female in

fucking six years i had no idea right right what i was doing just right trying to keep her interested and maybe she liked me let her know i liked her had you started your journey of sobriety yeah i uh no i hadn't i didn't do it until june so you were probably fucked up when you were talking to her also no actually i wasn't i i had started to slow down a little bit just to make sure so like times i got high were were limited like at this point like i'd usually do it like with a buddy at night before we you know lock our doors or something like that so um so we talked and next thing i know we just we kept talking and i kept showing up where she was at and uh and then she got fired for being a 21 year old female

in the prison she was just she didn't she didn't do write-ups she never got anybody in trouble she did her job and she left and and what was her, but when she got fired, did she have the suit by then? Yeah. The superhero suit? Yeah. What was her job? Like, why was she? Just a prison guard.

A lot of the time, a lot of the time she was out at rec, out at recreation, on overtime. Other times she was. Are you just like a yard duty? You just walk, you're just eyes and ears out there? You just walk around and make sure everyone listens,ys the rules that's it okay so if somebody's doing something they're not supposed to then you're supposed to do whatever either they go to the hole or you ride them up or whatever like give me an example like if if like someone was doing something with the weights they weren't supposed to like if they didn't have a spotter she would be like hey you

gotta you guys gotta use spotters or no that wasn't ever an issue um somebody was off in the in the hobby room smoking or something then they obviously she would call other people in and they would probably come and search everything and probably take that person like take them to the hole okay and so basically they didn't think she was tattling on people enough okay so so she got fired well me and her still had a mutual friend that worked there like this other there was another girl there that my buddy was hitting on he was trying to hook up with her but whatever happened between them nothing eventually but she was friends with my my now wife with carrie and uh one day i was even married how long how long have i been married yeah 20 years holy shit congratulations thanks

what a fucking story so i was standing i was cleaning up one day and i was about to close the uh janitor's closet up and go just go work out. And that girl stood there. Her name was Shawnee. And she's like, hey, she's like, somebody's waiting on you to call them. And I was like, what? What are you talking about? And this was about a month after my wife had got fired. And I was like, what are you talking about? And she put her hand up on the doorway like this and sticking out of the doorway was a piece of paper. And she goes, somebody's waiting on you to call them. They, she can't stop thinking about you. Thanks. I'm going back to my cell. I'll see you later. So I went back and I called her. Um, she answered, we talked, um,

She answered. We talked. We talked that point in time. The next time I called, her brother in law answered the phone and hung up on me. Well, I didn't know this until later that it happened, but her mom, he had told her mom because she was still living. She had moved back in at home and her mom had told her like this guy from prison's calling it's either him or you move out and she told her mom she says i'll be out in 10 minutes don't worry wow you kind of can't blame her mom though no not at all i don't blame her mom one bit not one bit hey when you would talk to her on the phone, what's the longest you could talk? Did you have a time cap? Yeah, you only had a half hour, but you could always call back.

But you could, it got capped out a half hour. So we talked and talked and talked and talked. And come September, I had a power of attorney from a buddy of mine. And I asked her, I said, hey, I said, it just feels right. How would you like to carry my last name? And she goes, I never asked. Wow.

Holy shit. Yup. Why did you ask? Um, what a courtship. That's why I always tell people, man, people always ask for advice or something and they're they're like they're always like hey this happened or or this is going on and i'm always like look our relationship is completely different it was built on something completely different

like we went two and a half years of not being able to do anything but hug a brief kiss and talk. That's it. So it's basically two and a half. You got two and a half years of really getting to know her. Yep. Getting to know each other. So we got married. She married us.

She married us. Actually, she went down to the courthouse to the justice of the peace and asked, is it possible? Can I do this? And they, and they looked into it. Um, and the lady, the justice of the peace called in two people from out of the hallway said, Hey, I need you to come in here and witness. I need you to come in here and witness her marrying her. And they were like, what? So they came in and she married my wife and me without me being present. Um, and had those two people witness this. And that was on Monday, September 16th. The phones had gotten shut off between me and her because it happened. Their phone system was garbage. Every now and then it was shut off. Um, I call her, and I didn't know if I was actually married that day or not.

On Tuesday, they called my name for legal mail, and I go down to legal mail and open up legal mail, and it's my marriage license. Wow. Are you allowed to keep that, or do you have to turn that in? No, I get to keep it. That was in your cell with you? Yeah. Yep. Did you show anyone yeah

like the guys in the in the jail showed all my showed my buddies what a trip so and then you spent another two and a half years in jail yeah we uh we couldn't visit there because she had worked there they wouldn't allow it so i had a lawyer friend that um he was locked up he'd done some bad shit and uh he was a lawyer on the, um, he was locked up. He'd done some bad shit. And, uh, he was a lawyer on the streets and he filed a lawsuit for me against the warden and the mail lady, um, for not allowing visits. And, uh, and they, I, they got filed their lawsuit on Friday. By the next Thursday, they had moved me from that prison back to the state prison. So me and her could visit from Montana to from the Montana private prison. They put me back to the original

prison that I was, that I went to in the beginning in 96. And what state was that in? In Montana. It was in Montana. And where did she live? She lived in a little town named Sunburst. It's like nine miles south of the Canadian border. And so, and now she, you guys live in Ohio together. Yeah. Does she sound like she's Canadian or like those people from Fargo? She never did. She doesn't sound like that?

Nope. She always, she always spoke proper plain English. I cannot believe this. I cannot believe you're still together with her and you have a 13 year old daughter. What a fucking million to one shot. Did you ever get in trouble again after you got out of jail? No,

sir. Congratulations. What did her dad, what's her dad do? Um, he is, uh, deceased now.

He died of MS. Oh shit. Was he a bad boy? No. No. Nope. What do you think her attraction to you is? She always said I was cute.

That was it. You are cute, but. I don't know. You're fucking in prison. She just thought I was cute. And she was hoping because my cellmate's name at that time was Larry. His name was Larry. And she goes, all I could hope is that your name wasn't Larry. She goes, I thought I was cute and she was hoping because my cellmate's name at that time was Larry. His name was Larry. And she goes, all I could hope is that your name wasn't Larry.

She goes, I thought you were cute. Don't be a Larry. Jason. So when she marries you, she also doesn't know what's going to happen with your parole. Nope. So we got married on the 6th. This is funny, too, because we got married on the 16th. I went to the parole board on September 21st.

Five days later. Oh, you must have been so pumped were you like holy fuck right they've turned me down for a year flopped me for a year oh you went in there seven days after getting married and they said sorry you don't why don't you why didn't you qualify for parole because nobody ever gets their first time up okay that's why okay so i got flopped for a year um we got moved then back to the state prison we so that was in september they moved me and uh we were married from september and she couldn't come visit me until all this went down. Um, and I didn't get to see her until April. So I was married from September to April and never seen my wife.

I had never kissed her. I'd never hugged her. I'd never nothing. Wow. So consider walking into the visiting room for the first time in their stands, your wife, and it's the most awkward kiss and hug in the world. Are you shaking?

Oh, yeah. I'm scared shitless. Yeah, I've been in that. I was in that situation with my wife. I mean, not in jail, but I've been around my wife in the early days where I'm just around her before we were a couple and I would start to shake. I didn't even know why. I would just start vibrating. Yeah. So we visit, um, I go to the parole board again. Um, a year later I got in trouble one other time, um, for, they told me I got in trouble for arguing with a guard, um,

and got sent to the hole. And I got got out he told me when i went back to the parole board he says hey he says you give me a year free of clear conduct he says i'll let you out okay so you go for parole six days after you get married or seven i get turned down i get down for a year i get turned down i get in trouble in that next year. And then I go up to the parole board again and he turned, told me, you give me, uh,

you give me a year or six months clear conduct. I'll let you out. Um, are you sober during all this time? Yes. I'd gotten sober in June, June after I met her before me and her got married. And so you stayed sober the whole time.

Yup. Hey, during that time, did she ever, did you guys ever talk about breaking it off? No. June after I met her before me and her got married. And so you stayed sober the whole time. Yep. Hey, during that time, did you guys ever talk about breaking it off? No, not once. She never did. I always say my wife saved my life. And I can truly say that. Like she saved me completely. And I can truly say that.

Like she saved me completely. Like everything I ever thought about doing when I got out become a blip in my past. Like I was never, ever going to fuck up not having her. And her standing beside me and waiting on me for two and a half years proved everything I needed to know. Right, right. That's one special, special lady. Right. Relationships are hard.

Real hard. They're not easy. It takes a lot of work. Yeah, you have to be committed to get through some shit. I can remember after I got sober. I can remember walking down the hallway up in Shelby after I'd met her, I got sober. And I remember the clarity that I had one day of enough. I walked down the hallway and I could hear the gates closing around me.

And I was all by myself and I, I stopped and I realized in the middle of this hallway, like the fuck are you doing? Like you're in prison. Like all of a sudden in my life, everything I ever done, I realized that day, like I fucked up. I'm in prison. Like, I don't get it. Like, I'm tired.

I'm over this. I'm ready to go. I'm ready to be done. Yeah. I'm tired. I'm over this. I'm ready to go. I'm ready to be done. Yeah. I'm tired. What year was that? That would have been 2002. So you had met her already?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that feeling of being tired is a trip. I feel like I know exactly what you're talking about. Did you ever get into religion when you were in prison? No. Have you gotten into religion since you've gotten out no i haven't um i did that kind of a miracle it's kind of i don't know if it's a miracle you didn't get into religion or it's kind of a miracle that you made it without religion but preacher bob kind of turned me off to that like sure sure

so like i have this i have this and it's not that i'm not saying it's not real i'm not saying that it's this people shouldn't believe in it it's just not for me hey did you ever were there ever god what a great scene that would be in the movie that he's like hold did you ever see him like beat his son while he was holding a bible or in the name of god i never did no just like fucking god told me to punch you in the face. Yeah. Hey, what did that dude drink? Alcohol and whiskey. Just regular beer and whiskey.

Whiskey. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. He'd get whiskey drunk. That's when shit got real bad. God, I've known a few. I've known a lot of drunks, but I've only known a couple of fucked up drunks. And just, it's the worst.

It's like being around 10 dogs that bite. It is fucking like they're sober and you're like you see them start drinking you're just like i can only imagine as a kid you're just like looking for cover yeah like oh fuck someone's gonna get bit yeah well you know it's coming i mean yeah you'd know it and it doesn't take much right they open the bottle and it's almost like they're drunk like the hardcore alcoholics you know what i'm talking about like they already start getting the the hardcore alcoholics. You know what I'm talking about? Like they already start getting the behavior on. You're like,

dude, you haven't even taken a fucking sip yet. And you're acting like an idiot. Yep. Um, okay. So, so you go to that final parole hearing. Yeah.

I went in and he asked me, he goes, he goes, Hey, he goes, what are you, what are you here for? I said,

you told me that if I gave you six months clear conduct, you would, you would let me out. And he goes, he kind of looked at me. He kind of looked at me and I was like, Oh, I'm fucked. Like he doesn't remember. Yeah. I'm like, how old is he? he um he's probably in his 40s would be my guess at this point okay at this I'm still only in my 20s I'm a kid right so I was like man

I'm screwed he doesn't remember me well at that point in time there was a guy sitting next to him and I seen him take his hand and do this And he picked up a piece of paper and he goes, yep, I sure did. I said that. He signed the paper and he goes, parole granted. He obviously had written it down on my paperwork. Thankful that he did. To this day, like, fuck.

So I had to fill out all the paperwork to be transferred back to ohio because montana wasn't gonna let me out here because i had nobody except my wife here and i wasn't from i wasn't from montana um so we filled out all the interstate compact paperwork and six months later it finally came through and are you fucking kidding me you get paroled and it's six months before they let you leave yep why there was all kinds of background checks and department of justice shit that needed to happen apparently and is that normal have you heard of other guys no not at all so um they had lost my paperwork at one point my wife was on the phone every day with somebody from the interstate compact office trying to say hey where's like what's going on what's going on and one day she called and this lady got on the

phone and she she must have felt must have felt it from my wife. And they found it. There it was. She's like, I have it right here. She goes, I'll send it right over. They sent it over and six days, seven days later, I was free. Dude, it's crazy that these are people's lives. i hey you know that there's people who are just lost in there i had a buddy that he got out on the innocence project over dna so he did 17 years i just saw yesterday a guy got out after 20 years and 45 million dollars and the shit if it's true the shit i read the corruptness that got him in there is a mess but i guarantee you there's just dudes in fucking mississippi

who are just like just lost in the system yeah they're just yep like they probably should have gotten out 20 years ago they don't have the fucking iq or the family or anyone to help them you don't have anybody and that's what happens and those people know that they that's just what it is so hey that's another weak link in the system too right do you think the parole boards are corrupt do you think that you can pay people off in the parole board also oh for sure anywhere there's more human interaction it's just another people off in the parole board also? Oh, for sure. Anywhere there's more human interaction, it's just another weak link in the system, right? Well, the problem, I guess, I don't know if it's a problem. I don't understand enough about it, but like the parole board in Montana is made up of like local farmers and stuff.

Like just normal everyday people, you know what I mean? That have no link to anything. They're just, they pulled somebody like the guy that let me out his name was jeff he was a fucking farmer that's what he was you know i mean and if what what if jeff's having a bad day right right like they're not elected officials they're not which isn't good either but still like they're not elected officials. They're not, which isn't good either, but still like, they're not, this, this isn't what they do. This isn't their full-time gig to be able to, to get to know us, to know. Yeah. Do they ask you any poignant questions in your first parole hearing?

They, do they say, do they ask you anything like to try to get to know you? No, no, no. Everything they need, everything they want to know is on file. Did you take any programs while you were here um and have you do you have any write-ups that's it that's it my parole hearing was was less than five minutes damn okay so you get out and you're in ohio and your wife moves there yeah yeah we went back to her parents house that night to stay the night i had i had and you never met them before either hi her mom actually came and visited once and met me oh god that you've been through some awkward shit holy shit that's awkward i'm her favorite now she says though so though. So that's good. Hey, do you lose your dignity in prison? And then like you don't even know it until you get out?

You can. You can. Just everything you do is determined by somebody else. Everything. It doesn't matter. And you're at their beck and call. I mean, if they want to take you in a room and strip you and tell you, you know, squat and cough, then that's what you're going to do. Right. I mean, they want to take you to the hole and tell

you that you did something. Um, and it's not true. It's true. It doesn't matter. You know what I mean? Everything, everything is done for you. Like you, you, you don't get to make that call. You make that call, you're in trouble and you'll do exactly what they tell you to do anyway. And so you get out and how long does it take for like, do you start building right away? Or is there still, do you ever hit rock bottom after you get out? Is there any, is there? right away or is there still do you ever hit rock bottom after you get out is there any no no um the day i got out we went to eat it at applebee's which was when i told you i had one one attack when i got out and that was that day um we went to applebee's eat to eat to meet a friend and uh i walked in and we were staying it was lunchtime. And I was standing there and people started to come in and wait to be seated.

And I slowly had worked my way behind my wife and was holding her shirt, scared. I'm not supposed to be standing here. I started to panic and she goes, are you okay? And I said, no, I'm not. I'm not okay. She goes, do you want to leave? And I was like, no. I said, I need to do this, but it's not right. I mean, I had eight years. I've been eight years. You told me when to go piss and shit and eat and everything. God, I see in the movie that there's a scene in applebee's where you go in there and

have to splash water on your face in the bathroom did you do that no oh damn i didn't have to do that that's a good one though so we sat down and i mean it went so far as like sitting down and the waitress comes over and goes can i get you something to drink and my first instinct is to look at my wife right right i don't know what what do you mean you're gonna i can drink stuff other than what you're telling me right can i get you what would you like to order you've basically been brainwashed you're eight years in just your own circle it's like when i went to call i went to costco for the first time in 20 years and i didn't i never i forgot that there were humans that or i went to disneyland i couldn't believe what a pile

of shit my cohort is what they've done to themselves. Because I stay in my – like if you only stayed in a CrossFit gym, you'd think everything was great in the world. You go into Costco and you're like, what the fuck? There's dead people walking around all around me. Zombie apocalypse is here. Yeah, it's a trip. And so you were just with fucking dudes in a cinder block cell for eight years. And then you get out and.

Yeah. And, you know, there's no like there's no release introduction or nothing. You're just like pro granted. Takes so long to get out and they kick you out the front door. And if you wouldn't have had your wife. Oh, I mean, you'd probably still be in there. But to you, probably you would have gone to the original plan, which was to go back to a business as usual. Yep.

Sure would have. So. Did she train at that time? Did you get out and you weren't good? Were you in good shape when you got out? I don't know about good shape. I was still playing basketball and handball, lifting a few weights. I had went through my whole power lifting stage while I was in there. Um, so like I was still lifting, I don't know about good shape as much. Cause I was like,

I got out and she smoked. So like we couldn't smoke in prison. They had outlawed smoking. Um, unless you got it, you know what I mean? Unless you get it on the side. Um, so like randomly I was smoking and then like I get out and I start smoking again cause it's, it's right there. Right. I can have it now. Right. So, so I get out and I start smoking. we move back and i try to i get a job um what did you do um my first job i went to was temporary at um just kind of being a laborer at a welding shop and were you appreciative of it were you like holy fuck this is good time um but they didn't drinking coffee in the morning going to work coming home sleeping the one thing i've done

since the day i've been out that will never stop until the day I die is every morning I get up, put both feet on the floor and I stop exactly where I'm at and sit there. And to myself, I am grateful for where I sit. And I am grateful for the woman that's laying next to me in my bed. Two things that will never change the rest of my life, no matter what I do. Stop to appreciate where I'm at. And I'm super grateful. Yeah, it sounds like you found your own religion. So I worked there and then I had another company want to hire me full time.

And the guy, the foreman fought for me to get in because i went to work and i like i'm thankful these guys are giving me a job so i bust my ass and i make sure of it so he fought to get me in and gave me a job and i worked there for him for 12 and a half years fuck that's a lot and wow that's a long time well yeah i went from being a just an everyday average employee that worked on the floor to having my own team like i was the head of my own team when i left okay and and that's got to have instilled a shitload of confidence into you must have gone through just a massive transformation as a human being during that big time and during that and so so that's basically from 2004 to 2016 yep in 2016 my wife become a nurse um and i had started crossfit already and become a coach and was

coaching local box and um she had become a nurse and got her job at the hospital really fast, knowing the right people. So not that she wasn't going to get it, but it helped that she didn't have to go through six months of shit to get an interview and all this. She got an interview, interviewed, got her job, and we had made the decision. Like, I really burn out where I was at. I mean, we'd went through a three-and-a-half-year section of working like 70, 80-plus hours a week at one point in time. I was living off three 20-ounce Red Bulls a day, like super unhealthy. So we switched places. I went home and started coaching more um and she went to work um so i was the stay-at-home dad what was the what was the gym what was the gym

you were coaching at uh always forward crossfit is it still around yeah still over there it's over a 10 year it's been over there 10 years so it was the first one in licking county so i was there and then i went over to another gym when they kind of he turned a lot of his stuff over to his sister to run um i went over to another gym to a friend there was a friend there he was running his gym and he needed some help and i went over and said hey i'll help out if you need it and he kind of turned it over to me um and let me run it i was programming and kind of head coach and um yep there we were that was that was the second gym that was torsion that was the one where they had chatted let me kind of take over and run things

so he was a full-time police officer so and then somewhere in there so so basically you'd worked at a place for 12 years and when your wife became a nurse you decided okay you guys were gonna kind of flip the script you were gonna stay at, make sure the daughter's doing what she needs. You'll do coaching on the side. And then now we're flash forward to 2022. When did you start wanting to compete? Let me, let me go there for a second. I wanted to compete a while back, like back when I was still running, you know, at other gyms and stuff. And I was like, I just never got super serious about it because I always had other things going on. I was always programming or I was always the head coach or coaching a lot of classes. You know what I mean?

I was always doing something else, so I could never concentrate on just that. All of my strength scores tend to show up bottom of the list. I have a really good engine and I can suffer, but then the strength would show up like bottom of the list. Like I had a, I have a really good engine and I can suffer, but then the strength would show up and then my number would drop and I wouldn't make it. I wouldn't make top 200. So I decided I had a buddy and I was like, Hey, I was like, I'm going to spend this summer. I said, I'm just going to lift. I'm going to lift all summer and get stronger. Um, and then go into the open you know better this was about the time that i was about to quit the gym where i was at with we had a management and i had a falling

out and i didn't fit their new business model so i was we was ready to go and i told him i was gonna lift and we spent all summer lit i just spent all summer lifting and eating. That's it. It just got stronger. I needed to be. And then I'd end up quitting there and going back the gym and I spent, we spent the last three years doing nothing but bashing each other's heads in daily, just bumping heads and throwing down daily, which is where I'm at now, which is probably the biggest reason why I'm where I'm at competitively. Is Tim a master's athlete? Yeah. Yeah. He just just just aged up into the 50 to 54 class this year so so we were in the same age group for the last three years so and we just throw down like we just went at it well i was in for two i guess he was in for three and i was still in the 40 to 44 when we started so so yeah it's been the best thing for me competitively is having that perfect training partner.

Like just we both have like minds and we both just go. So it helped. What an interesting. There he is. That's my buddy. What an interesting journey you've been on. And were you ever did you ever sense any of this competitive side in you and any of the other businesses, life, prison, kid? Had you ever seen that? Is this a new side of you you've never seen before?

No, I've always been competitive, like in some odd way, whatever it is, I've always been competitive. This, this side of competitiveness is, is, it's just a different, it's just different competitive is all it is. So I always wanted to be the best drug dealer. You did. Of course. Yeah. That means I'm making the most money. That's what I wanted to do.

Right. So I always wanted to be the funnest on the street. I always wanted to be the best, the funnest at the party. Right. So I always wanted to be the funnest on the street. I always wanted to be the best, the funnest at the party. Right. I always wanted everyone to, to hang out around me and laugh with me. My wife calls me the center of, of attention at any place we go. She goes, you're loud. You go, she goes, you're, you, you want it.

I said, I, I don't mean to, it's just who I am. Well, that's interesting. Cause that, that's not how you were when you were in prison. You don't want to be the center of attention there, right? Not at all. So it's hard to be like, that one's a little different. It's hard to be the center of attention. You know what I mean? Like you could be, but like nobody wants to be. So you kind of just keep to yourself and do your own thing.

You have your group of people you hang out with and play cards or go to the gym with and lift with and so forth. So now the gym. So basically, at this point, you were when you were, you know, even a year ago, you were a trainer. You were a father. Yeah. And you just you just said, fuck it. I'm were a trainer, you were a father and you just, you just said, fuck it. I'm going to dive in and open a gym. Well, I always wanted one, like through this whole thing with other gyms, I always wanted one. Like I always want my, I always said like, I've, I told you earlier is like, I've taken so much my whole life. I have, I've burnt bridges. I've taken so much from so many, like, this is my chance to give back my chance to always say it's my chance to change

my narrative. Like, I'm not that guy. I'm not, I was some young, dumb asshole is what I was, you know? And this is like, always wanted my group of people, like my athletes to be able to, like, I went from what I was to, I have trust, like something I've never had. From other people. From other people. I mean, they trust me to send them down this fitness journey that they're on or part of their life journey. And they trust me. And selfishly, I like that. I like that they do. I like that feeling that I can help somebody do things they never thought they'd be able to do.

Do you have any kids programs? No, not yet. I'm actually, you actually had, uh, my buddy on not too long ago, Matt. Oh yeah. You know him. Yeah. That's a good friend of mine. I'm actually, um, I'm going to the, uh, the, in January, I'm going to the mental health, uh, program at rogue that he's put that they're putting on to be able to hold. At Rogue that they're putting on to be able to hold the juvenile program here. Oh, my God. You must be ecstatic. Yeah.

Super. I mean, the irony, right, that you guys both had your sibling shot their parent and his mom shot the bus driver. Yep. And 20 years, 28 years later, he, I mean, my words, not his, but he sees why he had to go through that to prepare him for what he's doing now for these other kids. Yep. Yeah, man, I just, you have so much experience and so much to offer the world now. I do. And I know I do. And I want to.

That's the thing is like, I, I want to, I want people to know when they come in here that, that they're not alone. Like the biggest thing, the biggest thing I had going for me when I got out was there was somebody there. Right. Right. Like I had, I had her carry and I still do. still do and like that's that is what saved me that's what's gotten me where i'm at and i know that and i want them to know that too they're not alone it's interesting um a theme of this podcast is my whole life i've been surrounded by some really strong people who believe in me and i've always taken it for granted i just take you know i mean as i get older i'm more thankful for it but i take it for granted even though i know it's huge if you have someone who believes in you man it changes the world yeah it changes your whole life it is life changing

yep um how long did how long did you coach crossfit before you actually felt like a coach like where you were like oh shit i'm a coach it wasn't long like it was really weird that i fell into it so comfortably because i used to be scared to speak in front of people uh scared like i had like nervous hated it um and when they finally let me go up in front of my first class, it was just like, I was meant to do it. It was just like, I felt so comfortable. So to feel like a true coach, I was, it was probably years. Like finally, when I was like, okay, like I can see, I can correct, I can, I can change lives. I can read people when they come through the door and how was your day?

This is the kind of lifting you're going to do today, or this is how they're, you're going to move. And like finally digging in more than just being the presence in the room. You take it serious as a heart attack. you take it serious as a heart attack serious as a heart attack it's it this is this is not this is not a hobby this is not something to take for granted i mean these are people's lives like i'm trying to trying to change their narrative too no matter what that narrative is uh pat once is asking why do you call it crossfit uprising um so it started um i wanted to call it crossfit convicted um for numerous reasons obviously it fit the story but they wouldn't they crossfit wouldn't let it said it was too close to another CrossFit name to another box.

So we started digging for names because, I mean, finding a name that fits what you're looking for is really hard. We came across a few names one night and Carrie had said something. She goes, how about uprising? She goes, because that's what you do. She goes, everywhere you've gone she goes you tend to cause an uprising she goes and you're going to cause one here it within town she goes how about that i so i started digging into it and come to find out um it was taken by a gentleman in california that had been closed since 2019 and i didn't know the rules about it so i got a hold

of them and asked them and I was like, you know, what's the rule? And they're like, well, we like to see it shut down for at least six months. Okay. And I said, well, it's been shut down since 2019. Can I have it? And that next morning they gave it to me. Wow. So, and how did you get clients? I'm going to tell you the first 40 people that come through my door are some of the most loyalist followers I think anyone could ever have. Do the right thing for the right reason. Number one. And I think I've always done that by them.

And that's why they're here. Those first 40 people I asked, I asked a buddy of mine of mine hey you ready to coach like come join me he said yeah i had another friend my other coach kim she was she was on as soon as i announced i was opening she had told me when i left the other gym wherever you go i will be there don't worry so i opened a gym and she contacted me she goes goes, where at let's go. I'm ready. Wow. And then all of my members, I announced it and I had 40 members before I ever had a system to have them sign up. Did they have, did they leave another CrossFit gym? Some of them did. Yeah. Most of them had already left the other CrossFit gym when I left. Gotcha. Okay. And then joined back up now that we're here.

You know, there's this saying that people don't quit jobs. Gotcha. Okay. And then join back up now that we're here. You know, there's this saying that people don't quit jobs. They quit people. Yep. And it's really, it's true. Yeah. It's really, it's really an interesting thing, right? It's like on one hand, it's the story of a thousand gyms, right? People fall in love with their trainer. Yeah, it is. And if your trainer boxes all the time that a trainer leaves and goes somewhere else and members leave. Yeah. Yeah. So I just felt, I just feel like it's, I always did the right thing by them for the right reason.

Not just because, not just because they were watching nothing, just, it was the right thing to do. And I wanted to change that about myself. And I did change. You lost me change. What about yourself? Change the fact that I've always done wrong. Oh, right. It didn't matter. I was always going to pick the wrong path. Right. Right. And it isn't like that anymore. So has it been an upward trajectory for 20 years or 15 years for how long you've been out? Yeah. Um,

no, not always. I mean, we've had our, we've had our downs and outs, you know what I mean? As normal relationships, I guess.

Right. Me and hers had some, some knockdown drag outs. I've had ice thrown in my face and stuff. So like, I've been a tough, your wife hasn't thrown ice in your face you haven't pushed her far enough right it's true so fighting with your wife is an art form and i will tell you this the number one reason i feel like that people get divorces is either

they fight too much or they don't fight enough and and i have had some friends who they said i you know many friends why did your relationship end? Because we held everything inside. We never fought. Never talked. Yeah. I told my wife when we first met and we started visiting, like, the biggest thing about this needs to be that, like, we have to talk, period. No matter what.

Like, we have to talk about it all. Anything. Big or little. period no matter what like we have to talk about it all anything bigger fails and you get into a fight you just got to time out and come back try again the next day it's like hey you got to keep trying yep i can remember nights we would sit on the porch on each end of the deck and not talk to each other and not even know why we're mad oh yeah that is some weird shit right i mean that that is some really weird shit it's like there's like almost like something invisible between you and your wife no one wants to be fighting but there's just a tension but nobody wants to say anything else right nobody wants to be like why are we fucking fighting yeah nobody wants to nobody wants to not be mad either yeah

nobody wants to not be mad either yeah so this is why i'm it does it does get better though i think i think at least at least for me it's gotten gotten way better every yeah every every time we fight over something 500 times we're able to finally resolve it our relationship sometimes it takes 500 times our relationship has evolved so much like it's takes 500 times our relationship has evolved so much like it's it's it's airtight like it's it's good like and we still have our bickering moments like she'll snap over your daughter now what's that is it mostly over your daughter numb some most of the time i'm i'm are you too nice to your daughter no i'm really hard on her you. No, I'm really hard on her. You are. Okay.

Yeah. I'm really hard on our daughter. I know that. I have this, I have this problem that I don't want her to end up like I did. And cause she is my daughter. And so I'm really hard on her and I know it. And I'm, I'm working on it too. She is 13.

She is a teenager. And she's a smart kid. She really is. But I also have to understand that getting in trouble is not genetic. And I haven't gotten over that yet. Scares me to death. I never hear you blame anyone. I don't blame anybody.

You're not like, fuck my mom. She did that to me or fuck my dad or. Never. The system screwed me. I have never in any of my time, Siobhan ever blamed another soul for any of my problems. Never. I did it. I did every bit of it. I,

there's no doubt about it. I know right from wrong. I knew right from wrong then. Man. Um, this Schindeldecker thing, you think you're going to be able to pull that off? I hope so. I hope they do. I had a meeting with Debbie, with his business partner, and I had my interview, but she had to interview me about my past because the felony is going to come up. They're going to run a background check on me, obviously. When does that go away? Never. Never?

Never. No. What's crazy is when he was on the show and he told that story it seems almost too good to be true i can't even believe that there's something like that that like not every crossfit gym in the world is doing i mean granted it's not for everyone no it's not for everyone it's what makes it it's the best thing i can think of at the same time like you said it's like it's so unbelievable like the way fell, the way it worked and worked out for him. Just like they just one kid. He just did one kid. Yeah. It's pretty wild. I love it. Like, it's great.

I got to talk to them kids over at master's fitness collective. When I was over there, he brought some of the kids over there um and I got to talk to him he asked me if I would I thought it was cool as shit yeah for sure so we went off in a corner and I talked to him for probably about 10 minutes you know just told him a little bit about my story and that Debbie and Matt were there to help them that they believe in them. So your resume should almost help you. Not almost your resume should help you get the job. Your experience should help you get the job.

That's what we're hoping. Maybe the judge buys into is the fact that I've been there. Yeah. Like this ain't somebody that's just got to, you know, no offense to a college education, but somebody that's just got a college education. Fuck no offense to a college education, but somebody that's just got a college education. Fuck those people.

Listen, listen, you have the two, you have the two greatest thing. You have the three greatest things on your resume, a 20 year relationship, intimate relationship, a 13 year old daughter while being in a relationship, still married. It's with Carrie, right? Yes. Okay. Before I put that on the resume. And then you got out of one of the worst revolving door systems in the history of the world, and you're out of it. And this is the part that they're really going to have trouble

getting their head wrapped around. You have the cure for the world's most vexing problem. You save people's lives on a level that's more profound than I can think of any job on the planet right now. Sure do it's like yep that's the guy yep hey any chance you'll make it to the games this year i don't know i'm we're gonna give it one hell of a lash i think i'll give it one hell of a last shot in this age group and then hold off till 50 um kind of lick your wounds and those and like heal up yeah um it's really hard on you like competing is really hard on your body it is um plus opening the gym

um took a lot out like a lot away from the training and everything that needed to be done um we were going to make just this one me and and my buddy, both. I think I have a good shot of getting Tim there. So, Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I'd be really good. Um, I said I'd only probably go if I was ever an athlete or a coach and could be one of the other this year. You're a mayhem athlete. Um, yes, I follow him. I write all the program. I write all the programming for here, for the gym myself. Um then yeah i follow me him wow crazy have you ever met rich no yeah way back when he was still a bsn athlete the year i got my

uh l1 at the arnold crazy what a small world yeah yeah he was uh i was at that actually that weekend that we were at the arnold on friday and i was doing my l1 on saturday and sunday at rogue um we went to the arnold me and carrie did and he was standing at the bsn booth i thought it was funny because there was a line in front of the booth and i was like i asked the guy in front of me i'm like hey i said are you guys in line to watch or to see rich and the guy looked at me and he goes who i said froning are you here to see rich froning and he goes no we're in line for and he said something and it was a booth that was way up in front i'm like can i squeeze through right here i squeezed through and there was one

person waiting to see rich wow yeah it was wild i loved it we got right up there got to talk to him hang out with him. They were standing next to the coolest dude in the place, and they didn't even know it. Right. Do you remember that interaction with him? Oh, yeah. Like it was yesterday.

He was cool as shit. Yeah, it was cool. I loved it. The guy, so just, I don't know. He was really genuine when he was talking to him. It wasn't like he was just there to, whether he was really genuine when he's talking to him it wasn't like he was just there to whether he was or not he didn't act like he was there just to meet a contractual agreement yeah just to peddle protein power and tell him how great he is he was there for you like yeah felt like it he took the time to stop and talk to us and so forth so there is that there is that vibe from a lot of famous people even not famous people hey, you're lucky you got to meet me.

And then there's people like Rich who are there for you when you meet them, even if you're a stranger. Yep. Are you using any, like, I know you said you had a couple guys who are in the space who are, I guess, your mentors are helping you. But are you using anything like Two Brain? No, not right now. I'm not. I just kind of use them. the space who are, I guess your mentors are helping you, but are using anything like two brain? No, not right now. I'm not. Um, I just kind of use them. Both of them are, both of them run some pretty lucrative businesses. So just kind of get this up and running. Um, being in it for 10 years, I've seen the things that have gone wrong and the things that have worked are the things that people have

overlooked and not done or whatever. And then with Angie and her husband, Pat, and the marketing team has been pretty good. So for now, we're just going to stay this course and see how it runs out for a moment. Are you allowed to vote? Yeah, sure am. I just did. Awesome. Wow. Are you allowed to have a gun? No. No gun. Can you ever have a gun?

No. They say if you pay the right people, you could have your... Of course. Fucking of course. You can have... I can get my hunting rights back in Montana. So, I don't know. Any desire to move back to Montana?

Isn't Montana better than Ohio? No. No, it's not. No. The scenery is better. Yeah. The outdoor activities would be better. Being you have the mountains and everything there.

Yeah. Everything is so far away. so far away. Um, and being in the CrossFit world now, like I, I'd be easy for me to find a job. You know what I mean? It'd be like, I could probably go to a gym and get hired on as a coach or maybe, you know, step in as a coach and help out. But like, um, and her as a nurse, she she's gonna get a job anywhere probably yeah yeah yeah yeah um but everything's so far apart it's just it's so vast so like where she lived it was always like it was an hour and a half just to get to a walmart so where you live now um do you are are you in the country like people on sept septic tanks? We're in town.

You're in town. Yeah. Do you see cows every day when you drive to work or no? You're in town. You do. Oh, so there's still some country. Oh, yeah. Your town is probably different than California town. Family friends of ours is where our daughter is, where our daughter on a farm.

They have a beef farm. That's where our daughter keeps all her animals. So we're out there a lot on the farm. I really appreciate you coming on. Well, I appreciate you having me. Really, really cool to meet you. You're the newest affiliate that I've ever talked to. I've never talked to an affiliate that's only been open for two months since I started the show.

Well, thank you. You don't even have any stains on your wall. Your wall looks like it was painted yesterday. No, this is just the office, So it's kind of clean in here. There's all kinds of marks on the ones in the gym. So, uh, well, I'd love to, I'd love to stay in touch. I'm very, um, I'm very curious to check back in with you in a year and see, and see what happens. Sounds good. I appreciate that. Um, I wanted to ship you guys out some shirts, you and awesome. Um, so if you would text me an address and I'll get you guys some shirts in the

mail. Okay. Um, you, uh, you are a remarkable, uh, contribution to,

uh, humanity by the way. Uh, unfortunately people have to do some fucked up shit and make the turn so that they can be examples for other people. I think a of people life is hopeless yeah and and i wish that people would just come see me yeah you are open to helping people yeah in a heartbeat dude i and nothing more like bring it let's go like i want to change this. I want you to be up. I want you to move.

I want you to feel life. Like there's nothing. Carrie said it the other night when we were talking about coming on this with you. It's like, she's like, there's nothing too small for you. Everything in life is a joy. I said, I've like, everything was taken from me for at my own doing but it was all taken from me for eight years like why isn't it a joy she goes you take joy in the things everyone takes for granted yeah keep sharing that with people you'll pass that to your kids too

you know like my dad grew up in a most fucked up situation ever basically you know you know he was born in lebanon right no running water no electricity 10 kids in a 10 by 10 foot concrete hut freezing winters all that horrible shit anyway but my whole life my dad can see an apple on a tree and fucking go over and pick it. And we share an apple to eat. And it's like the greatest moment of his fucking life, him and his son eating an apple. And I see you like that, too. Like, holy shit.

Look, flowers. Yeah. Right. Why not? I mean, right. Right. Like, have it all taken from you. Right.

Flowers. Would they kill flowers if they grew through the cracks in the prison yard someone come by and spray it and kill those please hell yeah yeah crazed like have it taken from you and then give it back and see what you think of it then yeah the ability to eat what you want the ability to walk into a store and pick anything you want. Oh, that's the ability to put on and wear what I want. Yeah. Hey, if I want to get up in the middle of the night, go take a shower.

I can get up in the middle of the night, go take a shower. If I want to take a piss and not have another guy stand in my cell and look at me, then I can do that. You can have alone time with your penis. Right? Crazy. Don't take it for granted, man. And then if you're down on it, let's figure out why and fix it.

Yeah. Any more kids? You think you'll have any more kids? No, I'm fixed. Yeah. All right. We wanted one after we decided we figured one and we're outnumbered anyway. So yeah, you're stoked.

You have a kid. Yeah. I love my daughter to death. She's a pain in my ass at times and she's frustrating and she's hardheaded. Guy just hashtag hug life. That's awesome. Um, I love her to death though. I wouldn't trade her for the world. Yeah. Neither one of them. Yeah. It's a good life to have a kid. It's a good life to have a woman you love that gives you a kid too. Yep. Yeah, you're doing it all.

All right. You have my phone number. Don't think that you can ever bug me. You can text me anytime, 24 hours a day. I don't sleep by my phone, but I love human interaction. I love all my guests. I appreciate your time. It's crazy.

It's people like you who make this show and make my life so fun and fulfilled. So thank you. I've watched you since I've been in CrossFit. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah. Anytime brother. Gives me another chance to, for you to be my counselor today. Awesome. Anytime. And, uh, and you, my counselor and tell Carrie, I said, what's up. Uh, and, uh, congratulations. I'm just so you're such an impressive human. Thank you. I appreciate that. All right, brother. Take care. And I mean,

everything I said, thank you. I take it to heart. So, okay. Thank you. Peace. Bye.

He can eat what he wants, Caleb. You cannot. He's got better than I do. As soon as he said that, I was like, oh, Caleb can't eat what he wants. You know, they gave us, for Thanksgiving, they gave us the same food that they normally feed us, but they served it in a nice buffet table style. Like somebody served it to you instead of you having to serve yourself

which i would much rather serve myself and just get some new food thank you yes exactly hey that that was i can't believe that was three hours and 15 minutes that was a long one for sure i could have gone another hour i start to feel bad like hey i got 20 more questions you know like when the class started up in the background i was like don't you gotta go right right when he said that uh some dude died but we're getting hit with weights i heard weights clang in the background oh good great sound effect god God. That should happen to him a long time ago, right?

And yet you can literally see his body and his breathing change as the story goes. Yeah, it was pretty wild. I'm sure he's probably told those stories so many times that it just like is second nature for him. It's also probably super traumatic too it was just ingrained in his head there's so much hope for people there's so much hope for people i was actually i was actually really tired when i started the podcast i've had my my kids you were tired too yeah but but i actually got invigorated by his

story my kids uh my kids have been sleeping in my room the last couple nights and they're breathing through their mouths because their noses are so stuffy and then avi woke up in the middle of the night last night and barfed all over oh i know that sucked. That's shitty. But at least I wasn't in prison. You can just say that every time now. Every time you think something sucks, well, at least I'm not in prison. Dude, when he says stuff like that, like it was complete chaos in there or it was a free for all that terrifies me. I don't want to be in a prison where it's a fucking free for all.

Yeah. You're just, you're just fighting for your life. It sounds so fucking corrupt. The prison system. Oh yeah. There's a, there's a documentary on it about how the like

privatized prison system is completely fucked up like they have no intention of getting people out of rehabilitating them they have every intention of building that's funny because when i looked at how much it costs to build a prison the next question on google search said uh is building a privatized prison profitable and it was like an investor website to help people learn if they wanted to invest in building their own prison to make money they're basically trying to maximize feed you the worst shit put you in with the worst plumbing the worst housing the least rehabilitation so that they can make the most money exactly we used to criticize the ussr based on its gulags

all right well that was cool i was i was really looking forward to that you know what's funny too is is i i've been panicking that a guest had dropped through the cracks because i didn't i knew that i'd sent this guy over to suousa, but I couldn't remember his name. This is like a week ago. And I was like, fuck, I really want to interview this guy. I really want to interview this guy.

And I thought, and then so finally I'm so glad I was so happy when I realized he hadn't dropped through the cracks. I had just fucked up his name in my head, twisted it all around. Oh, we have another affiliate on tomorrow. Oh,

serious? Andy Schneider. Oh, that's right. on tomorrow. Oh, serious? Andy Schneider. Oh, that's right. Time to start prepping. Back to back. And then the following week, we don't have any CrossFit people on. Ooh, that'll be nice. Only place to go to prison is the Nordic countries, like a holiday inn with free food.

You mean Syria's not good? Syria. Is Syria even still a country? Yep. It is? Are you sure? Barely. Barely. Barely. I've got some... I think they've got some, like,

ISIS types trying to run it. I just typed in Syria, and then I'm hitting news. Turkey inches closer to the invasion of northern Syria. Like, how did you know? Like, of course. Like, something's, like, always fucked up going on there. Mm-hmm.

How did you know? Like, of course, like something's like always fucked up going on there. Mm hmm. Turkey is playing with open fire in Syria. Yeah, they launched a bunch of missiles into Syria, and I guess they were pretty close to a bunch of American troops. Oh, the Turks did that? So the Turks, so the Americans are like, dude, what the fuck are you doing? Turkey carries out a deadly strike on base used by Kurdish group and U.S.-led coalition. Holy shit.

Yeah. Russia warns Turkey against destabilizing Syria. Maybe the U.S. and Russia could team up and beat up on Turkey just to team up on something. Yeah, and Turkey's part of NATO too. So it's the whole thing's fucking bizarre. I can't wait till you come back and hear

stuff. Keep it in the book. I can't wait till you come back and hear, and hear stuff. All right. Uh, what would you want to plug the brand of that shirt or anything? Like who's the company? Oh, uh, it's Roosevelt's. They just sent us a whole box of shirts. So thanks for doing that. Everybody that I work with is wearing them and they love them, but I'll just post a picture or send a picture to them or something are those the adams family on there the monsters or no it's the office it's like a oh characters from the office wow yeah but with like a godfather

motif yeah i think there's an episode um i can't remember what it's called somebody put it in the comments earlier and they were like, Oh, it's from that episode of the office. They just made a whole shirt themed to base off of it. God, we live in a weird world. For sure.

Is it, is that shirt soft? Yeah, it's pretty soft. It's really light. Like something you could wear in the summer and never get hot. Will it make it home with you? Yeah,

definitely. All right. All right, guys. Say bye to Caleb. Say bye to Savon. We'll see you guys tomorrow at 7am.