The Sevan Podcast - #819 - Michael Cazayoux | Building Better Men

Episode Date: March 2, 2023

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I was over here looking at how the Chicago mayor races that that lady, that fucking nightmare of a fucking mayor they had is gone that's crazy oh my god it's the reign of terror is over michael what's up brother what's up what's happening look at that beautiful last name that's um you eat crate you eat crawfish i do eat crawfish that is a good sign right that's what that last name means that's exactly it uh michael caleb caleb michael it's it's cashew cashew yep what's up cashew nice to meet you michael michael cashew does anyone ever get that right like dudes from california are they able to say that on the first try or i have met maybe one or two people in my whole life that got it right the first time.

Right. That didn't like, I mean, I, the only reason why I got it right is because obviously I've heard your name a shitload of times, but like in the third, how about, how about, but how about like you went to school in Louisiana? No. So, well, yeah, I went to like grade school and stuff. And then I went to college in Utah. But, and when you're in grade school, the T do the teachers get it right?

Like they're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I grew up in a town of 4 500 people everybody knows everybody and my dad was a politician so people knew my name at in the little town okay and then they know how to pronounce you know letters that are mushed together like that right yeah they know that o u x is you guys yep yep yeah that's cool are you um uh do you know your family's trip to the United States? Yes. So I'm a European mutt. I've got Irish, French, some Scottish, and then some ambiguous other European in me. Was your dad born here? yeah my my yeah my family's been

in louisiana for four five six generations hey is it um it those people are like uh predominantly french uh descendants there those are french people people. Louisiana? Yeah. Yeah. So what France, Asian means is people went from France to Nova Scotia. Uh-huh. That's Canada, right? That's, that's Eastern Canada up in the cold. That's like where some of, I think the biggest Hicks in Canada live is what I'm talking about. And they came down to Louisiana and they and they were as far as i know they were quite a subclass and they were very much looked down upon and um they had a very distinct culture created a very distinct culture and you know now there are not many true cajuns left but

in like western especially western louisiana on your way to Texas, there's some, some serious Cajuns and they're awesome. I, um, I spent some time in Houma, Houma, Louisiana filming a movie and it was like a different country. Good people, great people. Some of the nicest people I ever met, but, but like a totally like uh different like dudes who like make a living like getting alligators like a legit like that's my job yeah crazy crazy stuff um i um a mutual friend of ours uh marston sawyer uh about i don't know six months ago uh said oh hey i have a friend he hit me up uh michael cashew and i recognize the name i just didn't know from where and oh would you just like to shoot the shit with you uh can i give me your

phone number and you called and we met and i was like wow this is a really cool dude after you know i felt the same way man yeah you're you're you're a cool cat and i was like oh and then i started looking into you and and on the phone i got to know you a little bit and now i know why i always heard the name uh because of your kind of your entrenchment in the crossfit space and and then you had a really amazing podcast i didn't even know about that a big podcast thank you thank you yeah an amazing Yeah. An amazing pod had 1,845 star reviews on Apple. Crazy. 340 shows. Yep. Um, Oh yeah, this is a great episode. This was, uh, yeah, Adi and I, we started doing,

this is my wife, Adi. Uh, we started doing some episodes together talking about relationships. And those were, those were some of my most downloaded episodes up against people with millions of Instagram and YouTube subscribers. Why did you stop? I was, I was bored for like a year and I tried different, you know, I tried, I'll back up a little bit for the entire podcast. I allowed the, the content and the topics to evolve with my interests. And about a year ago is when I paused, but a year before that, I started just getting really bored with it, bored with the interview style. And so I started doing some solo podcasts. I started to only do in-person ones and not care at all about how big someone's following was. And it just wasn't interesting to me anymore. And I, in retrospect, the reason I was hanging on to it was maybe partly ego, partly like a sense of scarcity, which is like like i don't want to lose the audience and

what i realized by the lack of engagement that i had for the last year is i've already lost them like no one everyone can feel my lack of interest in this and it's just not i just i don't think it was very valuable anymore to anyone and so i paused. And then one of the things that a D suggested to me was, she said, why don't you just get a co-host? You know, you always have fun bantering with one of your buddies and things like that. And I couldn't think of anyone in the moment. And then a few months ago, I had the idea to start a new show with one of our mentors. Her name is Annie Lala. She's our relationship coach. And we're in the that I find just from around the internet and her, she's going to be a wealth of information. She has some funny shit.

She had this one post on there. It says it's, it's titled when two wounds fuck. Nice. And I'm like, that's an, I even went over and told my wife, I'm like, look at the title of this video. She's like, brilliant. Wow. Okay. And sorry, this is a little self-serving here. Why did you say you were only going to do them in person?

Why did you switch to that? To make it more challenging or? No, because I thought, well, from experience doing some in-person ones ones it always just felt like a more fulfilling experience you know i got to really catch up with the person before or after and it felt more like i was hanging out with a friend than i was doing this kind of work related thing yeah and that that worked to some extent but yeah i was just i was just done i was just done with it for a while um i recently um uh i have dave castro on the show periodically and he told me that he won't come on anymore unless we do them in person and um i think he did that because he just wants

to see me go in person so i set up my studio so i could do it in person but the thought of like having someone to my house and like having to talk to them and then, and then, and then what if they don't leave? Yes. Like what if they want to stay and be my friend? I'm good. No, that was all just for the podcast. You must go, go. And I have a tendency to like people too. And like, I don't like, I don't want to like, like, what if I say something stupid? Like, Hey, you want to go get something to eat? Then my whole day is fucked.

Did you do very many in person? Towards the end, I probably did a dozen or two dozen. Okay. Okay. So you dug in and you know, I'm, I feel fortunate that I'm in a really cool city where there are a lot of awesome people around. You know, Austin is one of the kind of new hubs for, for thought leadership in the country. And so it worked out. I don't, I have no interest in, or never had any interest of like doing a bunch of traveling to do the in-person ones. But having people over to my house or going over to their house worked for a little while. Yeah, Austin really is turning into quite the spot, right?

Yeah, I think that it's already been growing for quite a while. And then the pandemic hit and just that whole two-year period of weirdness happened. And I think a lot of people were attracted to the blend of ideas here and more so values. So there are a lot of driven people here, like there are in New York or parts of California. But what's distinct about this place, in my experience, is that they value community and even family more than their drive to succeed. And I think that's been really attractive, along with some of the politics during all the shutdowns

i think we're also uh pulling people here but yeah people like they're up to something but they're they're more interested in in connecting with people and having fun which uh which vibes really well with us as well the people that um i'm trying to think of the people there uh there's this guy chris williamson's there who has a podcast joe rogan's there right that you know chris chris is a buddy of yours i do yeah i think i was his second podcast guest ever well he came from england right he did yeah so he's there and then um joe rogan's there and then that guy, Lex Friedman, is there, right? Mm-hmm. And then recently, this guest that I've had on a couple times,

Nicky Rodriguez, has opened up a jiu-jitsu studio there called B-Team. I think I've heard of it. Yeah, B-Team. Is that like the really incredible team, like one of the best in the world? Yeah. The guy who's the best guy in the world, Gordon Ryanyan and this guy nikki rodriguez they had a breakup and nikki rod in his team kind in his portion of the team landed in austin and they've kept a really kind of um i mean it's fun from my perspective they've kept a fun narrative they've really kind of exploded the sport um

through their bickering right they have a feud of two and and it's it's um allowed a lot of people to engage on a on a pretty crazy narrative that that's uh that's um him and gordon uh i think that's him and gordon wrestling right there and so they have a pretty gnarly internet fight just constantly going where they make fun of each other and what do you think are they actually do they actually have beef or they yes manipulating the media both yeah both yeah yeah both they definitely uh there's definitely some tension there but anyway so it's it's and i'm sure i'm sure like and those are just the things I'm interested in. So, oh, and then, and then that, that kill Tony thing is there, right? Yep.

The Tony Hinchcliffe, Elon is here. Elon is there. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of big folks. And I think that kill Tony show I've heard is the largest live YouTube show on the internet. I think they get like 300,000 live viewers. I mean, I think they claim that in the beginning, which is like, if it's not true,

I just like it that they claim it. John Wellborn is down there too. Okay, so- I think he lives out by us. We live sort of out in the country in a place called Dripping Springs, like 40 minutes outside of the city. We just moved out here.

Wow, that's an awesome- I think he's out here. of the city we just moved out here wow that's an awesome i think he's out here um you in 2012 and 2013 you were at the crossfit games on the winning cross on the winning winning affiliate team yep yep i'm sure you remember tommy hackenbrook yeah yeah i was on his team and um did you guys qualify um and there was that crazy buff dude something ford on your team yeah that was brennan fjord fjord fjord he he was um on the team the next year after i was done so i think 2014 maybe they went back again or 2015 and either won it yeah i think they won it i think that yeah the year they beat Rich.

They won it maybe 2016. Please, not on this show. Don't say that on this show. You can't say Rich. No, you can't say anyone beat Rich on this show. That's sacrilege. Oh, yeah, cut that. Okay, yes.

Michael, were you on that team that qualified through Denver one year. And you had a girl on your team who was breastfeeding in between events. Black girl. Yes. Taylor Richard Lindsay. What a beast. I remember seeing that and filming there and just being like, this is got, this is the most incredible thing I've ever seen in CrossFit.

Still, maybe to this day, it is winning events with you guys you were on that team it was you and her and tommy yep yeah and adrian who i'm sure you know conway conway yep okay and then uh gal named mary lampus and then aaron binion yeah taylor taylor was a just a freak athlete. Just learning anything new, she picked it up more quickly than just about anyone I've ever met. And I'm remembering that correctly, right? You guys would win an event. She'd walk off the field and let the baby just clasp onto her tit and feed it. Yep. Grow a baby at halftime.

Yeah, that shit was amazing. I was really, and she was down to earth, like not stressed out or anything. Just what a cool experience. Did you have thoughts on that when that was going down? Not really. Yeah, not really. Just normal to you. I think that probably shaped the way that I kind of assume strength and mothers maybe a little bit more because of that.

Yeah. You see that that'll change your whole perspective. Yeah. Looking back, that's incredibly bad-ass. Yeah. Yeah. And as you say, the, the chill piece, I think one of the strengths of our team was just very, we were very laid back in between events, joking around, you know, taking things seriously, but also having a lot of fun with it. And in any sport and definitely in the CrossFit community, as it was like this, this brand new thing, I think people just stress themselves out too much. And I think it really served us to have, have a lot of fun with it. Uhffrey birchfield salt lick barbecue yeah and it when i think of breastfeeding uh i would see my wife like work out and have the baby there and then just

like literally right after a workout throw the baby on the boob and i always thought oh yeah it's probably just tastes like um those candy bars or chocolate you know when salt is on there it's probably just the most amazing thing for the baby. Did you ever have a dog? And every time you're done work, every time you're done working out, he comes over and licks your face. Like he just can't get enough of the salt.

Do you ever have a dog like that? Yeah. A little bit. And you're just like, Oh yeah, they're just getting the salt. I was totally into it. Uh,

Trish, I breastfed my stepson at an event and everyone loses their shit. Oh, no. Where, where do you live on the moon no one cares anymore loses their shit in which way like oh my god you're amazing or oh my god don't pull your titty out in public that's the way i took it i took it as the latter i read into it as the latter

oh jeff says that's actually a barbecue joint in dripping springs uh the place is that's what a barbecue joint in Dripping Springs. It is. That's what I thought you were talking about. Oh, okay. I thought you – okay. I'm stuck on the baby, on the boobs. A barbecue is to breastfeeding is to dogs to licking faces.

What – oh, there it is. Salt Lake Barbecue. You been there? I have, yeah. what what oh there it is salt lake barbecue you've been there i have yeah it's i would say it's like a little bit better than mediocre but it has a an amazing outdoor area and it's really popular ambiance also this is a really slick platform are we live on youtube right now or what yeah this is great we are i've never seen this and then you afterwards you can chop it up and you could we don't okay like we're like hey nice having you on michael and then i run away and play with my kids and yeah and we know that's great we used we used to have a

couple more people helping us and you'd see some stuff on instagram um yeah but now we're just i don't know i don't know what we're doing now but it's good the show's fucking growing like crazy so hell yeah man i don't want to fuck with it um uh you so that that's pretty amazing i want to go back from there it's crazy that you you've won the games twice that that's got to be uh an amazing experience um i want to go back so you're you're born in louisiana yep uh siblings two younger sisters and i've got a massive extended family adi comes from an immigrant family they her parents moved from israel and so and and they moved to toronto and she grew up with very, very small, like holiday gatherings.

And she, she always jokes when she comes to Christmas at my place, it's like 50, 60 people. And that's only half, like one side of the family. Crazy. Oh, where did you meet her? In San Diego at, uh, at Barbell Shrugged mastermind that that's a business event no wow no she's she's a fitness girl she was into exercising very much yeah she was a she was a bronze medalist at canadian nationals and weightlifting and she started working against gravity oh god it's a small world very into fitness well holy shit and you and she doesn't you guys don't own

that anymore you guys are married we are married and so she doesn't own that anymore correct we sold that almost two years ago. Oh, is that congratulations in order or? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's awesome. So you, now I'm getting, I want to go back to your youth, but fuck this. So you started Brute Strength?

I did. Yeah, me and my partner, Matt Bruce, and also Tommy Hackenbrook. And tell me what is, what was, what is, or what was, and what is Brute Strength? Brute Strength. Yeah. We started out just programming, doing online programming for people that wanted to go to the games, like people that saw themselves and, and, and a lot that were very high level athletes. And then we realized that the market for that was quite small. And so we branched out and started making programs for people that just wanted to compete better in their gym and in the open and then into weightlifting. And then we started a program called Brute Body, which was more geared towards people that wanted to look better naked. And so very,

yeah, very thoughtful, intentional online programming. And one of the things that set us apart for some amount of time was we created a team of experts that were collaborating on these programs rather than one person trying to be the expert in all of the different modalities. And so we would come together and create programs for our highest level athletes and then for the big groups that we would run. And what year did you guys start that? 2014. Yeah, end of 2014. Who else was in the programming space when you guys started that? Yeah, so CJ for sure, Ben for sure, and I would say those were the biggest without a doubt.

Was Ben's called CompTrain at that time? I can't remember. I think it might have been CFNE still. Okay. And then there was a guy – man, this is funny because yesterday I saw an old video, and this guy's picture popped up. Is it like the outlaw way? Was that a thing? Oh, yeah. He was Elizabeth Ockenwally's boyfriend or husband or something. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that guy. Controversy or something like that.

Yeah. He was, I think, sort of big and I can't remember who else. I think there were definitely some more people, but it was sort of Ben and CJ were the biggest as far as I remember. And what's that guy's name? Let me see if you can go to

About. I want to see if I can remember that guy's name. He was very distinct, right? He was short. He had big hair. hair yeah he had a huge beard and tattoos and he created he created a sort of cult following yeah yeah yeah um okay so and and you guys did that thinking you guys created that it seemed oh that's not him though no if that's him he looks totally different let me see no i don't recognize if that's him man you you've really changed good job yeah maybe it is i don't know i remember him being pudgy a little bit more round or rotund i don't know man god he really i don't think that's the guy i don't think he got really he got really handsome yeah all right and you guys started that that was

like um you were thinking well shit what was the what was the thought behind that we're already doing it for ourselves we might as well turn like, like we might as well turn this into a business, make money doing something we love. So I was, uh, right when I stopped competing, I became a strength and conditioning coach and I worked at Southern Utah university. What year is this? 2015? 13. I started 13. Okay. And because I had a, I had a back injury and so I knew I was going to have to stop competing. And so I worked at SUU and then LSU and LSU and the strength and in the college strength and conditioning world is sort of the pinnacle. And I realized that, so Matt Bruce on the far right, I realized that I wasn't happy there. And if I wasn't happy

there, I probably wasn't going to be happy anywhere in that industry. And while I was there, well, just to back up a little bit, this guy, Matt, he got me the position at LSU and I was really grateful for him. And I said, Matt, how can I repay you? And he said, I know that you're programming on the side for some individuals. I was just doing that, you know, to make a little extra cash. And he said, why don't we team up? You write the whole program and just tell me where to put the weightlifting stuff in it. And I said, okay, let's do it. And at the time I thought, okay, I'll make a little, I'll continue making a little extra money on the side and I'm going to, I'm going to pay Matt back. And I wanted, I wanted only to do programming, nothing to do with business whatsoever.

And so then we did that. And then I decided that I was going to be done at some point in the next year, I decided I wasn't going to continue following the strength and conditioning path. And I, I was chatting with Tommy Hackenbrook and he said he was looking to get rid of one of his gems in Salt Lake city. I think he had three at the time. And he off, he gave me an offer to come out, run one for six months. And then at the end of it, if I wanted to buy it from him, I could buy it from him. And so I decided I was going to do that with a guy named Jake Hutton, who's a good friend of mine. And we went out there. And when we went out there, he said, oh, another part of the kind of packages, he said, I know you and Matt are doing this programming thing. Why don't we leverage the Ute CrossFit name and try to make this thing a little bit bigger?

And so I thought, OK, maybe we can make a little more money doing this on the side. But no intention whatsoever of turning it into an actual business. I still only wanted to do the programming and let other people do the rest. And so I get out there and I started playing around with Instagram for the first time and just having a lot of fun on there. And pretty quickly, I saw like we started just bringing a bunch of people in to this new company that we called Brute. And I saw pretty quickly that the scale at which we could impact people and the flexibility and freedom that we would have doing an online company was exponentially greater than an in-person gym. an online company was exponentially greater than an in-person gym.

Within that six months, I realized I absolutely don't want to run a gym right now. And we decided to just go full on into Brute. But you kept that, that place ended up becoming like Brute headquarters, right? I remember seeing pictures and stuff of like athletes working out and their stuff. Wasn't there a guy named, I'm going to confuse him with a games athlete that's currently there was a guy there with the last name fowler was it a nick fowler nick fowler yep yeah and he was there too right yep okay it's god it's so it's so weird that time crossfit was growing so much that there were these oh someone said the guy's name was Rudy. That's right, Rudy.

Rudy. Rudy. Rudy. That's right. Rudy Nielsen? Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah. That sounds right.

We'll put this together with a big group of people. Okay. And it's interesting because those types of things would pop up on my radar and I would know. And I think I remember Brooke Entz went there. Brooke Entz, yep. Yep. I coached her for a while and, um, she was a good friend at the time. What other athletes went there that I would know? That you would know. Um, we coached Cara Webb for a while. Um, uh, Fikowski for a while. There are a bunch and I'm forgetting, I've been out of it for four or five years. Uh, but those are a couple of the biggest, I would say.

Okay. Roman as of, you know, most, most recently. Oh, that's right. That's right. That's right. And that, that's always a little weird, right? When, when a big athlete like him, uh, he, he was with Nick, right? Yes. Okay. Yeah. I heard that, that he was with nick right yes okay yeah i heard that that he was with nick oh my god that's brooke look how young she looks is that you on the right that's me holy cow i god i remember i know exactly where that is those are the ice baths over there underneath those tents back there holy cow jcacey Tovar. God crazy. Did you have fun in those days?

I had a blast. I had so much fun, man. Competing coaching. It was, it was so good. Yeah. It was a blast, right?

Were you there in Southern California when Brooke won? Were you her coach then? Yep. Dude, that was fucking nuts. Yep. That was kind of out of nowhere. Wow, congratulations.

Yeah, obviously we were so pumped for her. Yeah, I mean, out of nowhere for, I mean, maybe not for you because you guys put in the hard work, but for those of us who were kind of just like the pundits and the filmmakers, like, I mean, we knew she would do well. And, you know, I would see her around, but I, we knew she would do well and I, and, you know, I would see her around, but I had no idea she was going to come to Del Mar, California and wreck shop. That was crazy. Yeah. I mean, she, she went to regionals and the games and I would

say just performed at her best. And she really, yeah, she just really stepped up to the plate for those two events. What, what happened to happened, uh, to her is it was, um, why didn't she continue on that trajectory? Do you think as an athlete, do you think that, uh, is it hard staying? She went, she, yeah, she went back the next year. I don't, I don't think she qualified, but yeah, she, she continued to compete for two or three or more years. And I think just wasn't having as much success anymore on the competition side, but was having a ton of success professionally. Right. And I think it just made sense for her life to, to make the switch kind of as simple as that. Do you think that she, it was because of her, her performance, or do you think the field got just better or both?

I think, I think a little bit of both. I think that, um, yeah, I would say a little bit of both. Because she came in hot then. Right. And, and I mean, she, she was kind of at an upward trajectory like this, and then she did kind of just vanish from that scene. But you're right. Professionally, she still was everywhere. You know what's crazy? I don't see her anywhere now.

She's in the sphere that you run in. Do you see her at all? I don't. I haven't been on social media very much in several years, so I'm not really in a sphere on the internet per se. Gotcha. I'm trying to get back into it now. Um, why, why did you break away from it? Uh, yeah, ever since I started using Facebook, I guess in like, Oh eight or Oh nine, I would be on it for a year and then off of it for a year. And the, the reason I would always get off is I,

I, I could see even when I was only 19 years old, the impact that it had on my attention. It was so distracting. I could see that I was comparing myself to others way more than when I didn't use it. And yeah, I've never found a way to have a real healthy relationship with it. And honestly, I know very, very few people that do. I think, I think many people have been on it for so long without really questioning its impact on them that now they just feel like that's the normal way to live life. But when they take a break from it, But when they take a break from it, they realize how like the mental load that being so plugged in is having on them. So anyway, I've just never had a real great relationship with it. However, it is just so incredible for spreading a message and building businesses. And, you know, I've got a new business that I'm, I really care about and that I want to attract people to. And so I'm trying to get back in a little bit. Have you seen someone get destroyed by social media? Like by destroyed, I mean,

not, they didn't literally get destroyed, but like had a friend and someone posted something about them and it like devastated them. Can you think that or like people who've been like who get rocked by social like do you know any people like who look at their likes and they're like upset that like like i like i i i hear people i can't even believe it but i hear people say oh my god i can't believe this didn't get more likes i i'm literally fucking dumbfounded when I hear that. Or there was, you know, recently CrossFit, what was the mistake they made? Oh, they did the open and they put the wrong weights out. So they did an open workout and the athletes perform with the wrong weights out there, right?

Big, huge event, probably costing hundreds of thousands of dollars they invite out laura horvat who's um you know a legend kind of not kind of a legend in our sport and then uh gabby magawa big up-and-comer and they have them do the workout and they put the wrong weights out there and then they apologize on all three platforms they apologize on twitter facebook and instagram and Instagram. And I'm thinking, holy shit, that's so poignant because the person who, who made that decision is someone who's lost in social media. Like they're like, they think that they have an obligation. It's like, it's like, um, I'll give another example. You know, like when people like something happens in their life and they make a big post post like they go through a divorce or something and they post it on their social media and they have like 300 000 followers and i'm thinking like do you think

you have like some sort of obligation right like it's so weird you lost yourself you forgot that you just nailed it too you forgot this is a tool for yourself. This isn't your mom. This isn't your dad. This isn't your dog where you're leaving town and you need to find someone to take care of it. You owe nobody anything. And so they made this post apologizing on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. And all it did is it just it was it was a breakfast bell for all the haters so then all the haters come out and tell you what a dipshit you are if you want to apologize just make a simple apology at crossfitgames.com but no one would have made that mistake 20 years ago because everyone kind of knew social media was a tool and now there's this whole generation i think you were describing that's lost in it they think it's like some sort of,

they think it's a sentient being. Well, it seems sort of like the new town square. It feels real. It feels like this is where everyone I care about are congregating. And so it feels like if I'm being, if there's disapproval, I'm being, there's disapproval from the people that really matter to me, which, you know, is, is almost always false. And, you know, I can, I can speak to your, your question was, do I know anyone that has been impacted by things not being liked enough? And, you know, I'm a, I'm a little embarrassed to say it, but me. Yeah. And, you know, I think a little embarrassed to say it, but me. And, you know, I think a part of, I think a part of what drove me to addiction as a teenager was a hyper sensitivity to social

approval, you know, maybe a little bit more or a lot more than, than my peers, but it is part of human nature to be sensitive to approval or disapproval. Right. And it feels like if they don't like what I just posted, especially if, you know, yeah, especially if you're being intentional and trying hard, right. That they don't like me and they don't approve of me or they think I'm lame. And, you know, conceptually I understand that's not what that means, but there's a, there's a, there's sort of a war going on inside of me. There's a, there's a kind of a higher self that is, is, you know, calming myself down, but there's a lower self that's, that just feels tension and wants to keep checking it and wants to think about how to do it differently in the future.

And I feel fortunate that I've built the skills to just watch that whole thing go on inside of me and not allow it to kind of ruin my day or drive my behavior. But it's definitely there. You kind of couched it in a way that i could guess i could kind of relate if if you're if you're making a post i guess to get i guess i don't know why i post i guess i post just for fun that's great i mean i mean that's that's kind that must be bullshit that's bullshit i don't post just for fun but i guess if you that's that's kind that must be bullshit that's bullshit i don't post just for fun but i guess if you're posting with the intention that you're trying to generate um attention for a post the intention is for intention and you don't get it yeah that that

that would be a letdown it's so i don't i don't understand that the i i'll post something that will be like hey um uh here's the evidence the vaccine is killing people here it is and it'll have like three likes and uh actually i don't even know how many likes and one comment like fuck you asshole yeah 150 unsubs yeah yeah yeah and i'm like dude i just fucking could have saved your life what are you doing like like be cool i'm just i just saved your life and and then yesterday i hardly ever post anything of myself like like doing stuff yesterday i posted myself doing some dumbbell snatches it has 124 comments or something like that that's more comments than i've gotten in i'm like who the fuck wants why are you commenting it's a 50 year

old fucking dude doing dumbbell snatches in his fucking garage like what the fuck is wrong with you so i followed it up with five i followed it up immediately i was pissed off oh and look at look what i put over here to the next it right away i'm like all right fuck you pfizer's killing people like this is like this is me i'm just pissed what's the go to the caption of the of the dumbbell snatches let's let's take a look at this whatever uh there's no 70 oh it's throwing the 70 pound around today like it's my trabajo which is just a fucking total lie it's throwing me around i'm not throwing shit around and so it's like you know what i mean i'm just like it's just like and i used an r kelly song i should have gotten trouble or no it's k k rel oh anyway i i don't

know i sometimes i don't understand the um i don't i don't understand the i don't understand the people out there those are all no reps because you put your hand on your knee too oh and that's another crazy thing fuck you and my no reps those are all fucking brilliant i'll put my knee on your mom's i'll put my hand on your mom's knee while I do it. Jordan Brattarin. What's up, Jordan? God, that's a man. Michael Cashew.

He's a fucking lumberjack, this guy. Look at him. He's even got the plaid shirt. That's a good point.. Yeah, look at it. He's even got the plaid. That is a good point. I didn't pick that up. I've started wearing more plaid since moving out to the country, especially when I wheeled my chainsaw. You have a chainsaw? I do have a chainsaw.

We had a storm here where it got just way colder than usual, and it was raining, not snowing, raining, and then it froze on the trees. And then that happened over and over for five days. We had hundreds of multi-hundred pound limbs fall all over our land. Hundreds. How much property are you on? We have nine acres. Oh my goodness. And so you went down to home depot and got a chainsaw i did did you research them first no i've used the chainsaw a little bit oh holy shit i'm cutting up some wood have you used the chainsaw kayla what the fuck are you laughing

at have you used the same thing happened in nebraska where we just have limbs falling like and blocking roads and shit like the only way to get them out is with a chainsaw i i have um speaking about embarrassed um i have this uh chainsaw but it's it's on the end of a pole and yeah it's a pole saw and um i think it's even electric no it, it's battery. It's battery operated, which is electric. This thing couldn't cut my dick off, but it's probably like the man.

It's probably like one of the manliest things I have. You know what I mean? I pull that thing out. I'm like, come on boys. Let's go in the backyard and cut some branches. Yeah. Those things are fun,

man. It uses a whole thing of oil. Every time I use it, like you got to fill it. Do you have to fill the whole thing of oil every time i use it like you got to fill do you have to fill the oil up on yours every time you use it well it uses a gas oil mixture so when yeah they run out together oh and do you pull this you pull a string yep holy shit how i'll send you a video next time i'm starting it up. Yeah, I wonder if that would get a lot of likes. Preferably. Yes. If you put your hand on my knee.

I do follow this guy, Hunter McIntyre. Not nice. I follow this guy, Hunter McIntyre, and I like it. He cuts wood with an axe. Nice. And I like watching that. I bet you do. I bet you do yeah it's it's

it's fulfilling it's fulfilling oh my goodness battery chainsaw thank you pride fight you're a good dude all right uh so so you're raised in you're raised in louisiana and a good childhood yeah great childhood man are you a handsome kid? Do girls like you? Yeah, I was a kind of a popular kid. I had girlfriends and stuff and my parents loved each other and. Oh, shit. Sorry, Michael. It is a Ryobi. I know it sucks. God damn it. I wish no one would have called me out on that yeah that's the cheap shit at home depot damn it that's right okay fine whatever i only use it once and throw it away and buy a new one okay sorry okay so you're a handsome kid like justin bieber with his apples he just takes the

first bite of an apple and just throws it throws it good it's a good dude throw socks once throw them away that's right okay okay handsome young lad good parents uh growing up in louisiana yep i mean the kids liked you the kids like me and around yeah when i on my 90th birthday i it is the first time i drank by myself i took two shots of whiskey and um over nine years old nine years old i had two can you give me the details of that how you ended up with whiskey at nine i drank a little champagne at five i was fucked nice nice yeah yeah so it was my ninth birthday and i had a slumber party at my grandma's house my dad's sleeping on a couch on the other side of the room and I'm behind a kitchen

island with two older cousins. And we, and we opened the, the, we opened the island, these little drawers and there's a bunch of alcohol. And one of them says, Oh, we should drink some of this Jack Daniels. And we drank a couple shots. How old were they? They were 10. They were 10. Big kids. And yeah, very big kids. The cool kids. And yeah, we drank it. And I felt that warm rush, a little lower inhibitions, a little more comfortable around them. And man, the acceptance from the older kids was just-

You really remember that, huh? I do. I do. And yeah, the reason I started talking about this is, you know, I was, I was well-liked and I always fit in and you know, when I was 13 or 14, I started smoking weed and then taking pills and nicotine. Did you fuck with nicotine? I did. Yeah. I started, I pretended to smoke cigarettes when I was nine. And then at some point someone pointed out that I wasn't inhaling. And yeah, when I was 15 or 16, I started going to therapy and then AA because my parents thought I had a problem and maybe I did already. And when that happened, I started to

feel like I didn't belong. I just felt different. And despite being popular, I just always felt uneasy and alone in a way after that, which I think drove me drove me further into addiction. into addiction um uh i i the the uneasy part i i um it's kind of those are two interesting things to feel together because when i feel uneasy i want to be alone i'm not i'm not um i like i want to like look at i want to i want to like um you know like when you hear something in a room and you open the door and you look in there and you want to see what it is, it's like, I become very curious what that uneasiness is. And I want to look at it with no one around. It's interesting that you would feel uneasy and alone.

Did you not like feeling alone? Like when you say that, you mean that in a negative way? Yeah, I really did not like feeling alone. And what I'm talking about is like I would be surrounded by friends. So technically not alone, but I would feel different. And I guess to put some detail to it, I was spending three, four nights sometimes going to AA meetings. Were you the only kid there were you the only kid there i was only i was by far the youngest yes by far like just all these fucking weathered

motherfuckers in the yeah yeah i can only imagine yes and yeah there was a part of me that there's a part of me that was going to check a box and you know sometimes my dad was literally in the car outside but yeah so checking a box and the part of me that just felt like my life was not going in a good direction and felt drawn to the depth of conversation just the the realness in the room but then then my, all my friends were, were, you know, hanging out together. And so I just felt, I just felt different. Um, do you think that, uh, the, the thing that I'm kind of glomming onto is you were, you were in this room with just like real people who were like digging in the dirt.

And then your friends, it's just like superficial shit, just like capping on people, getting new shoes, smoking weed. No, I didn't. I wasn't picking up on that at the time. I was still very much wanting to do everything my friends did, but felt like attracted to the, to the depth in the, in the AA meetings. But what I mean when I say I felt different is like, I told myself they all have a relationship with each other that they no longer have with me. Like they spend way more time together than they do with me. And I'm, yeah, I'm just living this, this different existence. Hey, when you would hang out with them, would they be getting high and drinking? Yes. And I would be too.

Oh, and then you, so, so you'd be high in getting drinking and then go back to AA the next day. I would go loaded to the AA meetings many times, probably most times. Holy shit. Oh, that's a struggle. That, that's some, that's some, that's not fun. Yeah. Yeah, that's not, that wasn't fun. You couldn't enjoy either, right?

You were stuck between two worlds. You couldn't enjoy getting fucked up and you couldn't because you were, it's like, do you remember Sundays and you had school on Monday? I hated Sundays. I'm so glad my life's not like that anymore. Yes. I fucking hate that. I'm so glad I never have to be like, oh, it's Sunday and I'm stressing the whole time about Monday morning. Right. Your whole life is like that, right? I was putting, I was putting a mask on for every different group of people that I spent time with. So there, I, you know, I had this, this kind of junky risk taker mask for my friends. I had the like wise young guy mask for the AA people. I had this, um, you know, good son mask for my parents and family. And I had never even glimpsed the real me as a

kid. Um, did you, I don't think I did either. Did you, I really wanted to make my parents happy and I, and I wasn't very good at it. Did you want to make your parents happy? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I had, I had great parents. My mom and dad loved the shit out of me. And I think that's okay.

I think that's okay that I kind of lost myself in wanting to make them happy. Just if you're a parent and you, and you see like my kids do that, they're in that they've lost, they've lost a little bit of themselves and they just want to make me happy. But then what that does, I guess is put a shitload of responsibility on me to make sure I don't take their eye off them because I don't take my eye off of where I'm leading

them. Right. Like, like, do you think at some point, like maybe your dad should have been like, fuck you were moving. I'm not, you're not going to be around those. You're not going to do any drinking anymore. I'm taking you to Kenya. We're going to live out in the desert for four months.

Like, that's what I think I would do to my kids. So I guess I think I have multiple answers. You know, I don't regret anything that happened in my past because it got me to where I am today, which I'm so grateful for. My entire family is grateful for having gone through what we went through. We're so much closer as a result of it. Yeah. And if, you know, if, if my son was getting into addiction when he was 15 or 16,

yeah, maybe I would consider what you're talking about because in retrospect, like I'd go nuclear, I'd fucking just sell the house. I would kidnap him. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't give a fuck.

Yeah. I think, I think maybe, yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe I would move. Um, I wouldn't give a fuck. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe, maybe I would move. And I don't think anyone can know until they're in that situation.

You know, I know that they were just doing the very best they could with the mental and physical resources that they had. And I think that, I think they made a really courageous decision to send me away when I was 17. I just imagine it was so, so painful for them and they did it anyway. And they- Where did they send you? To Utah. I went to a wilderness therapy program.

Oh, what was that? What's that called? Second nature. Oh, is there one called Outward Bound? Yep. Yep. Yeah. I think as far as I know i know like a similar a similar deal to outward bound yeah one of my friends is that too i thought i thought one of the real things is is that they didn't take kids who are this one does outward bound might not oh okay interesting uh so so so at so so you were you you were using steadily from nine years old to no it's basically 14 but i started experimenting with stuff when i was nine

okay and then like i got drunk for the first time when i was five and then i took a hiatus probably like i took a 10 you were wise 10 I took a 10 year break you saw where that was headed uh so um freshman sophomore and junior year basically doing it all meaning I'm smoking weed and drinking and smoking cigarettes. Anything crazier than that? Any like meth or Coke? Yeah, both of those and ecstasy. And I was taking painkillers and benzos every day for years. And then I got into Oxycontin. And then right before I left, I started- Wow, that's hardcore. You started what? I started shooting up cocaine and Oxycontin. I started shooting up cocaine and Oxycontin.

At what point did you want out? Was there a point after the first year you want out and then it was just two more years of just this teeter-totter of in and out, in and out? I felt an increasing amount of shame due to just living out of line with the values that were instilled in me from my parents. But I thought that the solution was to be more liked by these friends that were also doing hard drugs. Yeah. by these friends that were also doing hard drugs and to get more acceptance and admiration and respect from my peers. I thought that was the solution. And I, and I just didn't see the, yeah, the option of getting out entirely didn't even occur to me. And so when I was sent away, I was, I would say I was partially willing when I was sent away. I was a minor, so they could send me whether I wanted to or not, but I was definitely partially willing. But I had read this book called Scar Tissue, which is Anthony Kiedis' autobiography.

And in it, he goes to a number of like 30 day rehabs in Malibu. And it sounded really cush and, you know, he hung out with hot chicks every now and then I thought I was going to go to one of those. And then when I found out I was going to live in the desert for nine weeks, I was pissed. And then when I found out I was going to go to a nine month inpatient treatment center after that, I was not happy about it at all. And when I got to that inpatient treatment, uh, I, I played ball for about a month. And then I realized my 18th birthday was coming up in about three or four months and I completely shut down. I didn't do any therapy, any schoolwork, and I completely shut down until my birthday. And I had every intention of leaving. And did you? So 18th birthday comes around. Everyone knows I'm leaving.

I packed both of my bags. I packed all of my shit into big black trash bags. And I had written down my plan every day in my journal, probably multiple times a day. This is my grand plan. I was going to carry my shit, walk down to the 7-Eleven. I was going to steal two 40-ounce cans of beer just because I was just so miserable and needed to escape. And then I was going to go pawn. I knew I had an iPod and a pair of like Ray-Bans or Oakley glasses, pawn those, hoping I could get a Greyhound bus ticket, go back to Louisiana. And then because I was born with a genetic back disorder and I had back pain starting when I was 13, I knew I could lie to doctors and get a prescription for opiates.

Wow, this is a thorough plan. I was going to get opiates from a bunch of different doctors, and I was just going to start selling. And that was the life that I was looking forward to. So then my birthday hits, and yeah, there it is. Let's talk about that. I'll make a a note here i want to ask you about that surgery okay go on so yeah so my birthday comes and i have can i go back one second so sorry so it's it was you went away to this camp for how many weeks seven weeks nine weeks nine weeks at the camp and then uh you're then it's going to be another nine months at a facility,

a rehab facility. Yep. And, and then, and then you're there for two months and then there's the escape plan. Correct. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, so the, the day of escape arrives. Yep. And I was obviously crying out for help because technically I could have just walked out. But what I did instead is I went into my therapist's office once I had packed up and I spent three or four hours in there just with him and another therapist sort of trying to talk me into staying. talk me into staying. And I just remember bawling my eyes out, just so terrified because my parents had made it clear that they weren't going to support me. I wasn't going to come and live with them. And I was on my own and I was caught between feeling desperate to use drugs because I didn't want to feel what I was feeling and terrified of what would happen to my whole life if I stepped out of that door. And then they can't, you know, they, they finally say, okay, we have other people we need to see. You got to make a decision here and

say, I'm going to leave, but I'm just going to call and tell my mom that I'm going before I go. And I call and she picks up the phone and she was at the beach and she had been expecting me and she answers and she's immediately crying. And her voice sounded. What do you mean she was expecting you? Because I had been telling them for oh fuck you i'm out of here fuck you i'm out of here right and so she yeah she was expecting that i was leaving and so she assumed i was calling to to you know finalize it and let her know and i just remember i'll probably never forget that moment her voice was so pitiful and, you know, broken as she was trying to, trying to get her words out. And she just, she was begging me. She said, Michael, please

don't do this to me. I feel like I'm losing a son today. And I sobbed again more. And in the end, I couldn't do it to her. I couldn't break her heart. Yeah. And so I decided to stay. And in the beginning I was doing it for her. And then I was doing it for my family. And after a month or two, I started to, yeah, I started to invest in therapy and just do what all of the other guys were doing, which was trying to tune into what I was feeling, share that, share my stories. And I started to glimpse a future that was more compelling to me than what I had been dreaming up for myself before, which is one of freedom and of possibility. I felt the freest I had ever felt in my body, in my mind. I felt accepted for who I really was, not for the mass that I was putting on.

And in this facility, you felt this. I felt that. Yeah. You know, because there are 10, 15 other guys that are going through the same thing. Did you feel like a failure because you didn't escape?

Was it like this fucking, like kind of this gross, like failure? Not really. I've never thought about it this way until now, but I think it was maybe important for me to almost leave, but then decide not to because I was expressing my autonomy. Yeah. I needed, I've always been hyper independent and I need to make decisions for myself. And, uh, I needed to maybe prove to myself like, okay, I'm doing this of my own volition. No one's controlling me anymore.

Uh, uh, um, when you, now that you have a kid, you must trip on what you put your mom through, right? Can you imagine? Oh shit. Just now now the whole time you're telling me the story i'm pretending like it's one of my kids and i'm tripping i'm like fuck maybe i shouldn't have had kids i mean that must have fucking fucked her uh what a crazy emotional journey i i like what you said too that you you you don't regret any of it and your family doesn't regret any of it i mean it really is true people don't understand it's like

those are treasure troves of of experiences you have now right it's i mean it was literally shit at the time and now it's somehow turned to just pure gold. Yeah. And if I could prescribe, I don't know if this would be the one thing, but I would prescribe this to every family in the world, which would be hire or consult with a third party, an objective third party to have deep discussions with, with your whole family. You know, maybe some families don't, don't really need the third party. What's that look like? What do you mean? I, you kind of lost me there. Yeah. So basically have family therapy, do family therapy, do it. And you don't necessarily need it. If you have a family culture of just having deep discussions as things arise, as tensions arise, as differences of opinions arise. But most people don't. And now they're in a place where they have a lot of unresolved tension in their family.

And it would really help to have someone to help them navigate through the murkiness of of those tough conversations am i making sense now yeah kind of i just need i'm kind of a rock in these things i just need an example so you're saying like if you have like mom and dad and like there's there's three siblings and one of the siblings is coming out gay don't like the whole family should sit down together and be like yo johnny's coming out gay and then and then the mom's like that's so hard for me because i wanted you to be straight and have kids and then and just talk it out like fuck yeah like build like build that fucking relationship maybe you got to start that shit early and then the kid goes back you're so selfish it's not about you and then you know and then you just

you just have it out yeah and so yes do you all and then also or or or like maybe like your siblings got together sorry michael and then they say um uh mom dad we want to tell you something michael's fucking starting to shoot up and you're like you're saying just have that pow wows yes and i the the part of how you'll be trade michael like when I hear about interventions, like interventions, like my, my friend's wives have done to them, like my friends on drugs and they do a fucking intervention on them. I'm like, if my wife fucking did that to me, I would fucking go out and fuck her sister. I would be pissed. I would feel betrayed.

What about that part? No. Uh, betrayed by the people like coming together to surprise you with an intervention. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, just my wife. Like if my wife did that, I guess, I guess I'm conflating ideas. Sorry. I kind of jumped the gun. That's different. I would say my smaller, my smaller self would, would, would chalk it up as a betrayal. My higher self would see that they love me so much. They're willing to risk my being defensive and my distancing myself and my

backlash at them for my health and for my life. Right. And yeah, there's a piece, the reason I recommend possibly a third party, an objective third party, like a trained person is very few people have the communication skills to navigate those tough conversations. We just don't value that in our society. And that's part of the reason why we don't have conversations when we need to have them. And we wait until they become really big deals. Like what if we had them when the problems were in their infancy, right? And we could, we could come up with solutions together and we could love people, um, you know, through, yeah, love people enough so that they don't have to keep making the same mistakes. Yeah. You really nailed it. Sometimes when my, one of my kids is hurt i feel like just getting the

whole like like emotionally hurt like something happened right like he feels like the other kids are mean to him i feel like just getting the family together and holding hands around the kid and just we all take turns telling them we love them like something like that like some hit like some hippie circle they used to do this they used to do this thing at um in del mar uh invictus did it this is kind of a weird tie-in but they did a love tunnel for josh bridges and the whole affiliate would hold hands like this they got like 60 100 people and they'd make a tunnel and he would run through it and they called it the love tunnel and i fucking love that i was like because he was a little bit shorter than everyone and he had a but i don't know i mean i think he still had to duck right but i'm just

short people too i'm just saying it was just so great that that is beautiful he would run through all of the bodies of the people and his affiliates and they, and, and, and just, it was so great. I thought it was, I, other affiliates should do that. The love tunnel for their athletes. Yeah. And families, man, to your point, our lizard brain is the oldest part in our brain. And that part is soothed, you know, that's the, that's our fight or flight and that part is soothed and comforted with physical touch. So if we,

I think if we go there during conflict and hard times first, we just, we're able to hear each other so much faster. Oh, I was just talking with Josh Bridges about that. He was on the show the other day and I was, I love shaking hands with people. The fist bump is just really bums me. I mean, there's a place for it. Like if you're running by someone like if i met you in person i'd want to hug you or shake your hand hell yeah yeah it's it's it's so much better you have a son i do yeah yeah i've got a son and a daughter son is two and a half daughters

is six months and yeah one thing i want to mention about starting young, I was in the car with my son maybe three months ago and I was driving and I was trying to send someone a voice note. And I would speak for maybe 10 seconds, make a little mistake or stutter, and then I would delete it and I would just do it again and again and again. And after three or four times, he said, Bubba, he calls me Bubba, Bubba, what are you doing? And I didn't answer him. I didn't answer him. And then I do it again.

Bubba, what are you doing? And then I do it one more time. And he screams at me, Bubba. What are you doing? And then I do it one more time and he screams at me, oh, what are you doing? And I had this moment where I thought to myself, I thought to myself, okay, he's not going to understand why I'm doing this, but there's never going to be a moment where it's clear that he does understand this kind of thing. And so I'm going to start the practice of just being real with him right now. And I said, I turned to him and I was like, buddy, sometimes Bubba gets a little nervous and he wants to sound perfect to people. And I'm just deleting this thing over and over trying to, trying to sound better to this,

to my friend that I'm sending this voice note to. And that was it. And what I, yeah, my belief is that by, by starting to practice now when he can actually understand, and maybe the stakes feel higher because I might be embarrassed to more embarrassed to tell him I've already, I'm already developing the muscle of doing this. You know what's interesting? That's a great photo. Is that a girl, by the way, the one on the ground? Dude, you are going to be blown

away when she surpasses his talking abilities at two. I remember when Avi was four and we would meet two-year-old girls and they would start talking circles around them. I didn't know you had a little girl. don't i don't we would just meet other girls i thought my boys were the smartest fucking kids in the world until you meet a girl nice yeah um there's this uh five-year-old girl that they play tennis with and and my son's eight and he's

smart he got a big jew brain and this five-year-old you're jewish too i'm not my my wife is oh okay we got i got a couple jews too yeah right right you married jewish yeah and uh and um the girls are just nuts dude they are they it's not even you know when you're a kid they're like yeah girls develop faster it's not even that they develop faster they develop boys are like rocks i mean they're like we're such we're such cavemen but when you see a young girl around a boy you start to really realize it uh trish uh excellent interview top 10 thank you for your testimony uh mr cashew thank you trish heidi krum uh anyone else 999 i i felt i felt the tear ducts turn on for a second i i quickly turned them off uh jessica t great talk why thank you what's all this money don't worry about that

that has nothing to do with you uh uh clydesdale media amazing story thank you for sharing mr cashew so funny oh how the internet has changed since the year you've left the podcast space. How dare you abandon your listeners because you lost interest, Mr. Cashew. Robert Myers, $5. Robert, wow. Robbie, all of a sudden I'm seeing you around more with your flat bill. Nice to see you, Mr. Casey. Can you see the comments?

I mean, not the ones that I put up on the screen, but the ones that are live. No. No. Yeah. So basically we're live, and there's 167 people watching. And it's a pretty – there's a morning – I do this show every morning at 7 a.m. So there's a really active crew in here of just people. So cool, man. Yeah.

So a lot of times – look at this guy, Barry, my cockiner. Great combo as always. It took me six, look at this guy, Barry, my cock in her, uh, great combo is always, it took me six months to realize this guy's name was fake. Uh, and then, and then there's just, so there's, you can do this whole conversation with this crew and they're good. And then this is also the crew that sends me DMS on my Instagram. And so they send me stories that they might want to talk about or see and so then i i uh curate them and then we do these live call-in shows and i just bring stuff up and uh and it's cool that's great i can't believe it's uh we call it kind of like do you remember tosh yes it's kind of like a low rent the poor man's tosh uh it's kind of like a low rent the poor man's tosh nice yeah that's great um yeah

every day at seven that's that's a commitment man good for you yeah i'm well i'm addicted i'm fucking addicted um the likes no uh not um not the uh the like I don't think we'd actually get very many likes, and I think we're banned. The process, because I've been doing the show for two years, and I'm getting better. I'm finding myself. I'm finding my voice. The show is getting better. Like yesterday, a guy called me, a friend of mine, and he has a son, and his son's 18 years old. And I heard his son say something. Dude, you're the funniest guy I've ever heard, Sevan.

I guess you are, like, and that rocked me because, like, that's all I ever want to be is funny right that's awesome and it was like holy fucking 18 year old thinks I'm funny and and I and I work on it so like during the day I'm like I'm like I'm I'm rehearsing like skits or funny things I want to say or I reflect on maybe that was inappropriate what I did there how can I make it better so I'm just addicted to the process and maybe maybe it is the likes maybe i'm fooling myself but there's this crazy instant feedback i last night when i went to bed i was like man hayley i'm starting to like really like these people i hang out with every morning it's weird because i don't even know them look at this

person genitals you get it yes i do no i don't want to meet any that's the thing i don't want to meet any of these people manny serrano i did meet i did actually have a drink with manny and newport once someone's the real ceo of crossfit uh david weed see and then there's assholes you're not funny i am funny i am i'm starting to realize that's really really great to hear that you're, yeah, it feels like you're maybe stepping further into your life's purpose, if you will. Like you're, you're, you're in your calling. And I don't think of a calling as like a single thing. I think of it kind of like a peeling back of the onion and you're obviously following your heart and you know, you're good at it and you just feel, it seems like you're, you're on your path

and you know it. And then there's also this really awesome thing about the internet where you can get feedback for it really quickly, which a feels good, but in terms of development it is it's pure gold for any sort of of knowledge work like this having this type of a feedback loop is just it helps us grow so much faster oh i like the way you said that yeah feedback loop yeah and yeah and when i started you know there would only be like 40 listeners. And like last night we did a show, and the live show had like 1,000 listeners live when we went last night. Yeah, and I wouldn't say I was embarrassed that there were 40, and I still don't think 1,000 is a lot. But after doing it for two years, I'm so grateful for every single person who listens. But after doing it for two years, I'm so grateful for every single person who listens.

I know that sounds cheesy because I feel like I built this relationship with those people and they built this relationship with me. Like we earned each other. So it's kind of a trip. Philip Kelly, I love meeting you in person, Seve. Thank you. I love meeting you too. Much more handsome and buff than I imagined. I disagree with 30% of everything Sevan says.

Come on, 50%, 50%. Why does someone go to shooting up? What was the, did you see someone else do it first and you were up for the adventure or? Well, I think the, yeah, I had always put shooting up in a category that was like, that means you're fucked up and I'm never going to go there. And then I read scar tissue and he's just talking about shooting up. And although the last half of the book is him recovering, it feels like a lot of the stories were sort of glorified almost. And it sounded amazing.

It sounded like the most euphoric feeling a human being could possibly have. And so that seed was planted by literally reading that book. And then one of my close friends started shooting up and I told him at some point, Hey, I want to do this. It's funny. Cause when I was thinking about maybe not asking you because some, cause I used to watch the show mad men on, on TV. I don't know if you know the show, but the guys, the guys always smoking and drinking. And whenever I would watch the show, I'd want to smoke and smoke and drink right you don't want to trigger me or or anyone out in the out not not i'm always i didn't even think of you sorry but i was thinking of other people man drugs are crazy right because there's only two endings right you either die or you quit and they both aren't fun neither of them

not necessarily the third one is you live a long, miserable life. Really? That happens? Yeah. You're getting sober and relapsing and getting sober and relapsing, or you're, you know, you become homeless and live like a shell of an existence for a very long time. And maybe you have a shorter life, but. And eventually you can, especially with methamhamphetamines you can do so much damage that you can never come back i don't know that sounds right and by come back i mean i don't mean that you don't quit but you'll be different you will have you know it's like our friend you have those i'm sure you have those friends who

did so much acid and they're just like oh no something happened you're not coming back like part of you got stuck in another world yeah especially in informative years i so don't want that to happen to my kids yeah what do you think your orientation will be around their them using experimenting with drugs is it like hell no you can't do any of this or yeah yeah hell no i will i will protect them and keep them sheltered for as long as fucking humanly possible yeah they won't get i won't ever buy them a cell phone they won't be allowed to do any of that shit they won't i'll hope the first time that they they put their penis in a vagina that they've never seen porn.

And, and I mean, I don't know if I'll succeed, but I don't want them to see 400 pieces of porn before the first time they're with a girl. I want them to be like, I want them to have the same experience I had. Like,

holy shit. I think I just touched someone's bra. Yeah. You know what I mean? I think I fucking touched a bra. Well, look, I had watched a lot of porn by the time fucking touched a bra well look i had watched a

lot of porn by the time i saw a bra and i still felt that way yeah okay good good good good absolutely good yeah i wonder do you have any concern about them either feeling like you're controlling them yeah i guess it's all like do you feel like they'll rebel against a perceived control i i justified that as we all are going to rebel against our parents at some point and i just want them to have all the fucking tools humanly possible to succeed before they give me the fuck you i expect the fuck you right at some point they're gonna fucking give me the double middle finger and and do something crazy get into fucking uh those squirrel jumpsuits or some shit or like apply to go to mars no one way that they would i hope they don't do that either

dude i do not want my kids being astronauts or going to space fuck that i mean your your your kids are so active one way that they could get back at you that i feel like might really get under your skin is just really devote themselves to becoming couch potatoes yeah playing video games all day eating complete shit and yeah you know doing nothing with their life they would have to it's going to be so hard for them to get out of my clutch until, until, until they're 18, until they can put the bat until, although they're going to be able to beat me up by the time they're 12. That's pretty cool.

Yeah. I don't, I have no idea what I will do when they're old enough to even consider experimenting with things, but there's a part of me that wonders if there's a benefit to them, like being able to do it and feel comfortable enough, sharing it with me so that I can. Yes. That's the tricky part. They have,

I want them to be able to share it with me too. If they do, if they do like, they've already shared some shit with me. I'm like, Holy fuck, how did you do that? Like I have my eyes on you at all times. I can't even believe you did that. Like they've told me some shit. That's cool. That's great that you, that you've created that safety. Yeah. I think one of the ways that I will create safety is just being really transparent about my stories without glorifying them and, you know, without trying to make my son think I'm cool, you know, related to like the women I slept with or the, the crazy

stories I have share the stories and the consequences of those stories and sort of what I learned from them. That's, that's sort of my best plan right now. Along lines i i see parents give their kids too much information um and and they project their own um i'm going to try to think of an example they project their own so i'll give you an example so i was raised that abortion was I was raised that abortion was OK, pro-choice. Right. But I was never talked to about abortion. And so I was given this picture that like, hey, it's women's rights, it's a women's health issue. I was couched it without without ever explaining to me like, hey, arguments can be couched to manipulate you and you need to see both sides and you need to ask questions like my parents gave me their ideology their liberal ideology around abortion when when

that's it and they closed me off when they did that they sealed me into a bag by giving me that yeah and i want to be very careful not to do that to my kids except in places that i'm that it's at all expense it's to um protect them from life or death issues and so and so i i'm a little careful like if like my kids will ask i'm trying to think um so my kids are very interested of how they got into mom's stomach, but I'm not going to tell them until they can ask the questions to get the information they need. You know what I mean? Yeah. I love that.

That's great. Like, like, uh, how did we get in there? Uh, what do you mean? How'd you get in there? Well, where were we before? I don't know. I don't know where you were before. Well, uh, what happens when you die? I don't know i don't know where you were before well uh what happens when you die

i don't know there's a couple of prevailing theories you know and maybe i'll tell them a couple i'm like the one says that like you go this one book over here and but then i'm like and there might be other shit too i always tell them like i don't know you got you're gonna have to and then i always like and if you do want to know you can go down this path of like sitting still every day for an hour and just focus on your breath and supposedly that you could get the answer that way. Yeah. You know what I mean? I don't want to just – I don't want to seal them off except in – I don't want to seal them off, I guess, from – because that's what happened to me.

I got sealed off. But some things I feel like you should seal off um though yeah the ones that you're you feel really certain about well or or just want like you need you need a strong grounding in who you are so i i don't let they don't get to choose whether they're a boy or a girl like i ground they don't get to choose whether they're um black or hispanic or asian look your fucking dad's armenian your mom's a jew you have a cock you're a dude you go to jiu-jitsu five days a week your name is avi i mean on some level some of these things might not be true but i'm gonna pound those into them and seal those off and if they really want to go deep when they're

older they can't i mean don't you wish michael like in in hindsight don't you wish you would have never done any like aren't you curious what you'd be like if you would have never done any of those drugs like i wish i don't want to say i regret it but part of me like really wishes i would have and i don't i don't fix it on but i wish i never smoked a cigarette i wish i'd never taken it i've smoked so much fucking weed and i just think what did i do to my lungs i just think of the physical damage i might have done like just every morning packing a gram in and trying to suck down the whole thing with a fucking butane lighter the crack torch yeah and if i fail dump it out and pack another gram and try again it's like what the fuck did i do to my lungs doesn't a party wish like and

that's why i'm like i don't want my kids to do that. Because in hindsight, it's not that I regret it. It's that I can't get those lungs back. I would say a part of me wonders what that would have been like, but I really value my depth. And I don't think I would have cultivated the depth without the pain that I went through. For sure. You know? I've cultivated the depth without the pain that I went through. For sure.

You know, I, yeah, I feel like it, it helps me appreciate my life so much more than some people that haven't gone through some of the trials that I've gone through. Like, yeah, I think they, they tend to take things for granted a little more. Yeah. It helps me connect with a broader range of people yeah i have a bunch of reasons why i value it but um i definitely wonder what it would be like ever have it do you have a rock bottom moment um i would say that the first time i shot up was somewhat of a rock bottom moment. That was the first. So the, I had, I've had a lot of friends die and this was the first, the first friend of mine that died of a drug overdose. His name was Tyler. He was 16 and he took Oxycontin and Xanax and he went to sleep

next to one of my other best friends and he never woke up. And I was, I was traveling when he had his funeral, but then he had a memorial. And instead of going to his memorial, I chose to shoot up for the first time. Wow. This is in Louisiana? In Louisiana. Yeah. Where were you?

Where were you when you shot up? Someone's house? I think in the back of my mom's Suburban. Wow. Like I was just driving's Suburban. Wow. I was just driving her Suburban for whatever reason. I just remember feeling like a fucking piece of shit. You didn't even get to enjoy it.

You weren't like, yeah, this is highest. I'm highest. Mixed feelings. Man. And how many times do you think you shot up? Maybe a hundred. So you don't have a rock bottom moment. What about that moment when you were talking to your mom in the rehab? That was definitely a painful experience.

But I felt... Yeah, when I made the decision to stay, I suddenly felt more connected to my family and in rapport with them. Let me, let me ask the question differently than rock bottom. You ever had a moment where you're like, you're ready to give up and die, where you kind of like you turn to the heavens and you say, I'm done. Take me.

Yeah. I had, I had several, several moments where I, not several moments. I had a, I had a period of time, maybe three to six months where I contemplated suicide. And one day I put my dad's pistol in my mouth and I don't think I was actually that close to pulling the trigger, but I was, I had been thinking about it a lot and I wanted to see what that felt like. Right. Test run, test run. about it a lot and I wanted to see what that felt like. Right.

Test run, test run, test run. And yeah, in that period of time, I was just feeling so, so depressed and I was, I was probably being grounded a ton, like my entire high school career. And yeah, I had a lot of moments where I imagined it would just be easier if I wasn't alive anymore. Did you ever – are you a religious guy? Was your family religious? I grew up Catholic and never liked it. And so as soon as I had the opportunity, I rebelled against that. I guess I always rebelled, but I called myself an atheist as

soon as I left Louisiana. And yeah, I've had quite a journey in terms of spirituality and religion. But yeah, I grew up with that and rebelled. And then now I have a lot of appreciation for it. I don't identify as religious, but a ton of appreciation for it. to identify as religious, but a ton of appreciation for it. Eric says, how do you think your parents could have loved better to support you in a way to not have made those decisions? Do you think your parents could have done anything? I definitely don't know the answer to that, but what comes up for me that may have been helpful is, I mean, the thing is they couldn't have possibly done anything differently because they didn't have the tools, but if they had a better

understanding of their own emotions and were able to express their emotions to me clearly without making me wrong for their emotions, I think that could have helped. So specifically, what I felt from them was anger and disappointment. And that's all I thought they were feeling. So there was one experience where it was the first time I failed a drug test for everything. This was a really big step down in my life and in my perception with my parents. And I remember my dad looking at the panel and screaming, and I was in another room screaming for me to come in the room. And he was fuming and he said something like, are you fucking crazy? You're throwing your life away, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think my mom was maybe doing a little bit of the same and probably a little quieter. And my perception was that, oh, they're so angry with me.

And yeah, they're so angry with me. Now that I have the understanding of emotions that I have, what I understand is that they were afraid. They were afraid that their son was going to kill himself or kill someone else. And if I could have felt their fear, right. If they would have camp come to me without the explosive energy and said, you know, something like, you know,

Michael, your, your own person. And I just want you to know how like what's going on for me and i'm just terrified that you're gonna die and you're gonna throw your whole life away and if i could have seen them cry from that standpoint i think that would have invoked my natural empathetic response i would have felt felt so they saw that they felt something and then what you witnessed was not what they felt but their reaction to what they felt this

is a very this is a very very common problem with human communication very and most people don't even know they're doing it i mean uh that you're actually responding to your analysis rather than to what they actually said it's called being trapped in your head or reading into something or it's crazy it's crazy or it's called the week before your wife's period um uh sorry i couldn't resist um how old are you? Right now, 32. Did you ever relapse after that 18-year-old adventure? I did, yeah. Six months later after rehab, I had a really bad relapse, and it only lasted a week. Yeah, that was like 15 years ago, 14 years ago. Are you in the clear?

What do you mean by that? Do I have cravings and stuff like that? Yeah. Yeah. I'm totally in the clear. And so what happened to even say that, can you say that some people would say it's dangerous to say it, but here I'll tell my story. I was completely sober for five years. I went to an AA meeting every single day for months and months. I saw therapists. I did more group therapy. I sponsored dozens of other alcoholics and addicts. And about five years in, I started to have this thought that I no longer identified with

the first step of the Alcoholics Anonymous program, which is that I am powerless over drugs and alcohol. Anonymous program, which is that I am powerless over drugs and alcohol. I felt like I had dealt with the underlying issues and that didn't feel true to, for me anymore. And I ended up, a guy, you know, I've been thinking about this for maybe six months and a guy, yep. A guy, yep. A friend came over to my house and he put a big bag of weed on the table. And then he went and took a shower. And I looked at it and I'd been thinking about it for six months.

And so I just went, swipe, took a little nug. And then that night I rolled myself a joint, got high, felt great. But then I just kind of sat and waited for the next week or two thinking, oh my God, am I going to relapse? Am I going to start craving shooting up? And that never happened. And slowly I started to reintroduce certain things, some recreationally and then some for like healing purposes, sacred, sacred purposes. And a lot of people ask me how I'm able to do this without my life becoming unmanageable again. And I think it's partly that I did a lot of my shit when I was a kid. And so I didn't have as many years sort of rewiring my brain in a negative way. So my, my, my drug use years were way shorter than a lot. Um, and I also, I, when

I relapsed, I got that the reason people relapse is because they stop following the 12th step, which is we practice these principles in all our affairs. So they'll go through the steps and they'll live cleanly for six months, a year, five years, but then they kind of rest on their laurels and they become complacent. They stop growing. They stop having like emotional, spiritual hygiene. And then their life falls apart again. So some of these steps, it's like take a moral inventory. Who are you resentful for? And what is your part in those resentments?

It's make amends. It's serve others. Just things that every human would be better served by doing. And that many healthy people just sort of naturally do. And so what I got is that I needed to keep practicing these. I don't necessarily need to keep reading the big book or go to meetings, but I need to, this needs to be front and center in my life. And these 12 steps, these 12 steps

and just, yeah, essentially taking care of my mental health, my physical health and my relationships. Um, uh, that must, did your parents, so, so let's say today, like, would you have a beer today? I would. Yeah. Does that scare the shit out of your parents or your wife? I would. Yeah. Does that scare the shit out of your parents or your wife? So yeah, so the sober for five years and then I was not sober for another year before I told my, my family. And initially they were, I would say slightly concerned to moderately concerned because there are just not many stories of people learning how to do these things safely again. And at the same time, they had a lot of trust in me and they saw the type of person that I was and they saw how clean my relationships were and just the way that I was living my life. And they also got that them

trying to control me back into sobriety wasn't going to work. They got that, this showing me through, through the way they spoke to me that, uh, they trusted me was the best way to get me to kind of, I don't know about behave, but live in the best way I could. If they had tried to control me, there may have been a part of me that rebelled and ended up like wanting to use harder things to in spite of them. And I'm guessing you don't fuck with any pills anymore. Never.

No. Man. I mean, I don't have any personal experience, but obviously I have a lot of friends who have been through wild journeys. And I don't know anyone who does that, what you're doing, who's able to, I guess, re-assimilate. So when you say medicinal stuff, you mean like ayahuasca and stuff like that? Yeah, and psilocybin and things like that. And those have been, I would say, one of the most impactful parts of my spiritual journey, without a doubt. Can you tell me about that? Why is that? spiritual journey without a doubt. Can you tell me about that? Why is that?

So the way that I describe plant medicines is they put things in front of me and in my consciousness that are like defects of character, ways that I'm out of integrity with myself, things that I could access sober through meditation, reflection, having, you know, great people give me feedback in my life, but they do it much faster and with greater intensity. So for instance, so this is a, this is a, this is a good one. For a couple years, I was noticing this voice in my head when I would be talking to some people. And the voice would say, I'm better than you. And immediately I was like, oh, fuck, that's a gross ass thought. Right. gross ass thought. And I would be like, you know, metaphorically, or I would imagine myself aggressively pushing that thought away, but it just kept coming up over and over. And sometimes there was more, it was like, I'm better than you because, and I became really ashamed of that thought. And then in an ayahuasca journey that came to me and what plant medicines do sometimes

is they amplify what's going on inside of you times a thousand. And so it was amplified times a thousand and I made it into this much bigger deal than it actually was. And what it was like for me in that experience was I told myself, if I think I'm better than others, I'm a complete fraud. My wife is going to leave me. All of my friends will disown me. And my whole life is about to change. I thought that was the truth. So much so that I almost ran out of the room. The shaman then closes the night and everyone's medicine is sort of wearing off. And I ended up pulling a guy over to the side and asking if I could share it with him, share something with him. And I told him everything I just told you. And he just starts laughing at me. And he says, me too, by the way, me too.

And what I hear from you is that you're a man whose brain has evolved for thousands and thousands and millions of years to compete for status. You're a human being, you're a male competing for status. And as soon as he said that, man, just this enormous wave of relief came over me. And what I got from that experience is that there was a part of me that was, was, and always had been trying to compete for acceptance and for, you know, jockeying who's better than who. And when I would be in conversation after that, what I learned to do is when that voice would come up, I would imagine myself embracing that side of me, almost like it was like a little, the little boy version of me. And I would say, thank you for

everything you've done for me. You helped me win the CrossFit games and you've helped me succeed in business. This competitive, I love this. Yeah. Yeah. And thank you. and i'm talking to sevan right now and so rather than beating the fuck out of it yeah so you think you're better than me so much dude so much dude um you accept it you're not gonna fight that guy you're gonna accept that guy i accept you exactly right dude it's all god i don't know how you tied that in god that's fucking brilliant michael it always ends up being acceptance it always ends up being acceptance there's this thing i love this thing that eckhart tolle says and if you can't accept it accept the fact that you can't accept it and if you can't accept you can't accept, you can't accept it, except the fact that you can't accept it. I'm just like, oh my God, I fucking get it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you, you, they, they are, um, they your, in your, I don't know what you call it, your, your, your mundane life, your regular life that you actually have cultivated enough awareness

and maybe that's the gift through all your hardship to actually see your thoughts. You know, some people aren't even in in that realm yet they don't even know what we're talking about because they haven't actually even seen one thought to know that what we're talking about and then you know on that faster level going back to your parents your parents probably didn't even see that emotion they probably didn't even see the fear emotion they just reacted to it and then gave it to you. And like seeing emotions is even crazier, right? I mean, now you've cultivated a shitload of awareness to watch where emotions come from. Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, meditation is very popular now. But I think, I don't know if 10% of people really understand the purpose of meditation. The purpose is not so that you can just have a relaxing 10 minutes or 20 minutes and then go about your day with more calm. That's a bonus. The point is so that in the rest of your life, the rest of the 23 hours and 40 minutes, you start to become more aware of your thoughts and the sensations going on in your body. That's all it is. And then once you can see it, have a little more influence over it. Let it go. Accept it.

Yeah. Along those lines, you should always be meditating, but there's these moments that you should use in your life, ideally when things are good, to cultivate the practice. But ideally, you know, one time I was sitting in an airport. I think I was in India. I can't remember where I was. And I was just sitting there quietly, you know, consciously, like setting away meditation time. I like to think of myself as I'm always in meditation, except for those moments when I've lost consciousness in my sleep. But someone said to me, how could you meditate in here? It's so noisy. Like, are you kidding me?

This is the fucking easiest place to fucking meditate. Like, like, and those types of things reveal to me, oh yeah, you're right. Most people don't even know what meditation is, that it's just this cultivation, right? It's a time that you've set aside purposely to cultivate more uh more uh awareness who who who do you think you stumbled do you have a something that like impacted you the most like a book or or a person someone who pointed uh and sort of on my personal growth path or what yeah or just someone who gave you do you remember do you know who gave you like my wife has given me a lot of tools for looking inward like shit loads and um if it wasn't for her i i what was i had the capacity and the power to do it and the focus.

I just didn't know how to do it. It's so, you know what I mean? I never even thought of looking inward. Like, what do you mean look inward? Like open my mouth and look in the mirror? Right, right. You know, bend over and spread my butt cheeks? What do you mean look inward?

I mean, that's how I was. Like I'm saying I was a rock. Did someone help you or point you in the direction or give you the tools more than i can count the first one i'll i'll mention it was a therapist named jason that i had at that nine month spot and he was this big dude i think he had played college football just like a fucking man's man and he told me very early on, he said, a real man is someone that can be fully himself no matter where he is. And an aspect of that was he is able to express his emotions without being insecure about what everyone else in the room is thinking. And he showed me

how to do that. And he supported me in discovering how to do that for myself. And so having this guy that was just a badass, he would go on these two-week-long elk hunting trips by himself on public land, just a really badass-ass man's man. But then he was so expressive emotionally and such a great space holder. It gave me a one, I wanted to make him proud of me. And two, it just gave me an example, a model of who I could become, of the type of guy I could become. I didn't have to be an effeminate, creative type if I was going to be expressing my emotions. I could be a more traditional version of a man and also express my emotions. I consider myself a creative type now, but at the time, I didn't think that was cool. Tell me about this term you used, space holder.

Yeah. So maybe this is like spiritual jargon I'm using now, but what I mean by that is the ability to be in a room with one or more people and stay grounded while others are expressing themselves. And so if someone is expressing something really big, they have really big emotions, what is healing for that person is for, I'll say this, what, what, what is not helpful is for me or for Jason rather to react and add his own bullshit and projections to your big emotions. He was able to have these kids and me included going through all of our pain and screaming at him sometimes. And you know, one kid had lost his dad to suicide and he was just able to breathe through it. And so he's creating this sort of container for us to just completely fall apart in with safety.

for us to just completely fall apart in with safety so it's holding like a a safe space am i making sense bro i i uh it is a the most under expressed term and most needed on planet earth space holders these people are fucking amazing is he the first space holder you ever uh met no but the first one that i was ready to listen to i i started going to aa meetings when i was 15 and i was around a lot of really caring people that, yeah, they, they had, yeah, they were great space holders, but I was not ready. I would go into these meetings and intentionally imagine myself closing my ears because I didn't want to change. I so badly didn't want to change. Did you have any home births? didn't want to change um did you did you have any home births i did yeah we we uh intended to do it with our first but he came a little early but then our second one she she was born at home yeah and uh were your midwives were they incredible space holders incredible

yes that's a that's a great example those those ladies are unfucking believable what they do if you find a good midwife who can hold space for your wife when she has the baby you will freak out the party will be like hey bitch aren't you gonna do something they do they do absolutely no thing the good that we had two midwives, they did absolutely. It's not that they're doing nothing. They did no thing. They sat there and let my wife have the fucking baby. And it was, I couldn't even believe what I was witnessing. It was this space holding idea.

I, Oh, one of the most beautiful and powerful experiences. I didn't get to have my son at home so this was extra special that so that's her prior just prior to the birth yep um there's this uh when someone's telling you a story once you start experiencing being around space holders and you start holding space for other people you what you do is you you someone might tell you a story i'll give you an example this might not not be a great one but someone might tell you a story and the appropriate thing to be might be like someone be like yeah my dad died and they tell you the story and uh someone who's not holding the space might be like oh my god i'm so sorry oh my god and that person did really at your funeral that's so unthoughtful of them oh my god that's borderline racist they did what to you these people what they are doing is a pseudo um compassion that they are they are uh they're almost like feeding this um

they're it's it's the opposite of holding the space person who holds the space sort of lets your story um see if it has merit on its own and if it can live on its own and if it can't it will go away and and you're almost healed in their presence and so um yeah and a woman who's having a baby starts spinning a lot of shit they're good you're good they're going through some shit and the last thing you need is someone fucking reacting to it and what's going on in your example is that person that woman is unregulated and so she's trying to uh she's trying to overcome her own instability internally by rescuing you and by adding her own shit a stakeholder they're feeling the same things but they have the tools to regulate themselves and just keep listening

yeah it's it's it's it's incredible i i i knew the idea of space holding you know i experienced it with my wife but but when we had avi and i saw those midwives do that that kind of like changed the whole uh that, they set the bar at a different level for me. I was like, Holy shit. This is like, I didn't even know they, they almost weren't human anymore for, for a couple hours. That's such a good example, man. Yeah. That's a, yeah. Um, good midwives. Yeah. Crazy. And what's crazy is one of the, one of the midwives, like I could tell ahead of time was going to have that ability. And one of them was just a complete, like neurotic woman. Like she was like the more of the doctor type, like, and the other one was

like the hippie dippy. And the other one was like the, the medical one. But when the fucking came to birth time, they both just fucking nice. Yeah. They just disappeared. They just vanished. I was like, yo, I really thought that like, yo, bitches do something. But like, there was nothing to do. Like, you know, like. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. One of the best things that ours told a D in the first one before.

Yeah. Way before she had our son, she said, you only have one responsibility, and that's to be pregnant. You don't have to eat any sort of way or do any sort of thing. You just got to be pregnant. How did you meet your wife? Remember, through Barbell Shrugged business thing. Right. And can you give me more details? You, you, you, what the event was and you walk into the place and you see her and.

Yeah. So both of us had significant others. She had a very serious boyfriend at the time who she thought she was going to marry. And I had a girlfriend of like a week and we walk into this. It's a, it's like a big, they had rented out a big mansion for 30, 30 of us that were paying to be there. And it's all business owners trying to help each other grow their businesses just to give tips and advice and poke holes in the plans and things like that. And we were the youngest by five or 10 years. And we were just like fit and immediately physically attracted to each other. And we ended up just spending a lot of time chatting and we were obviously into each other. Um, and then at some point, she has a

funny Israeli accent. No, no, not Israeli Canadian. Oh. Okay. And at some point I asked her if she had a boyfriend. And really what happened is I stalked her on Instagram immediately. And I found that there was a guy in her pictures, but he hadn't been in a picture in a month or so. So I said, okay, she probably broke up with him. I talked myself into that. At some point I asked her and she said, yes, I have a boyfriend. And so we, you know, we didn't, we didn't like, I think we continued talking, but we didn't hook up or anything. And then maybe a few weeks later, she broke up with him and we got together. Was she in a different city? was she in a different city she was traveling through the states and yeah she was just traveling all around and she was in the middle of a road trip with her then boyfriend and uh they broke up

and we got together and does she contact you is it like they break up and like she immediately texts you we were talking every day we were talking every day. We were talking every day. Oh shit. Oh shit. Under the guise of me coaching her, we had talked ourselves into this being okay because I was coaching her. Right. Right. I was helping her with her muscle ups and she was on the grid league.

And why were you attracted to her? Oh, she was that good. So she was good. She was. She was good. Yeah was, she was good. Yeah. So, okay. Physically, I just thought she was absolutely stunning, but what I, but I had been with

beautiful women before what set her apart just so much was our relationship coach, Annie, who we talked about in the beginning. She says, you don't fall in love with your partner as much as you fall in love with who you get to be in their presence. Yeah. Yeah. And immediately when I met her, I felt like the best version of myself. She, she just picked up on different things about me that she loved. And she started to treat me as if I were that person. So things like, you know, I can be radically honest. I can be humorous. I can be, yeah, like witty. I can be thoughtful and curious. But up to that point, I was not those things very consistently. but up to that point, I was not those things very consistently, but she saw all of those in me and she treated me like that's just who I was.

And immediately I felt like I just wanted to be a better person when I was around her. And I liked that version of myself. I love that version of myself. And it sort of, it occurred to me, I don't know about immediately. Maybe it was like after we started really dating. It occurred to me that it seems inevitable that I reach my highest potential as a human being if I'm with her. And that above all else. and that above above all else because you can let michael express himself i get that part right i mean she's you feel free in her presence does she believe in you she really fucking believes in me yeah more more than i believe

myself for sure so another metaphor and then before you say this oh you can say that and then i want you to tell me if you've ever was someone who didn't believe in you but go ahead tell me this metaphor and i'll forget that question okay cool so another metaphor is that our partners are sacred mirrors for us you In some ways, they show us our greatness, like all of our beauty, our magnificence. And in some ways, they show us our shadows, like the parts of ourselves that are hidden from us. And she saw both. And she's the best praise and affirmation giver I've ever met. And she's also the most courageous in showing me my shortcomings, where she knows I'm capable of being, but where my behavior is and showing me that.

And sometimes that's in the form of bitching and complaining. And sometimes it's in the form of really tactful, precise feedback. And she's always been that for me. And at the time of meeting her, I had done a lot of my own work. So I received that with a lot of gratitude and I saw it for what it was, which was gold. You point out something that's really good there. I've had friends who have been with women who are like, hey, I don't like the job job you have or you need to make more money or shit like that my wife's never done that to me when my wife gives me advice and i think it's i think i'm a wonder if this is like along what you're saying and she holds me to a higher standard so she'll hear me on the phone with uh you and i'll be like okay michael uh my kids are uh it's time to put my kids to bed i gotta go

and my wife will hear me do that 10 nights in a row and she's like hey see what she's like don't don't lie don't don't don't lie so it's not okay it's not who you are hold yourself set yourself free it's not it's not good for you it's not even like a moral thing or a value thing it's not good for you savant set yourself free. You don't need to do that. I mean, she says it better than that. She doesn't talk down to me like that.

I'm saying it like, I mean, she just, and she just, and I just, I'm like, oh yeah, thanks. Got it. It's like, Hey, watch out. Don't hit that person in the road. That's what she's saying. I'm like, oh, thank you. It's so like, she just gives me things that like I can do that instantaneously make me a fucking better person. I'm free. Holy shit. Thank you thank you mike i'm done talking to you bye

bye-bye yeah there's no there's no there's no i don't gotta make a reason i don't gotta lie i don't ever have to lie yeah i'm sorry to interrupt you what's what's the deal can i piss or should i just no no no no no pee away yeah always yeah yeah thank you yeah pee away dude i'm fucking this is this is two interviews in a row that i've outlasted the fucking person peeing it's a new record a fucking. You've been training your bladder or something? I'm on another level. I was supposed to go out to breakfast with Greg at 8.30. I've really fucking shit the pooch. I better text him.

Ooh, Greg's going to be mad. Or you just duped yourself out of a free breakfast. I'd be more disappointed about not having a free breakfast honestly greg called me this morning and i have this fucking automatic response that says what you need what you need come on yeah and i sent it to him like a fucking idiot i'm just seeing that i'm starting to sweat a little bit you don't say that to to Greg. I said, and so I just retext him. That wasn't for you. Ha ha ha. Uh, um, shit. Uh, I'm, um, uh, that was an automated response. What you need yeah just like me being funny like i think i'm like it i think i'm like it uh doing like i'm in boys in the hood or something like i'm like i'm pretending to be like ghetto unbelievable uh um i michael i have this I have like automated responses

on my phone when people call me and I'm supposed to have breakfast with Greg Glassman at 830 and it's 905 he called me he called me at 842 and I and I picked up my phone and I meant to type podcast and I realized I sent him one of my auto responses is what you need

what you need. What you need. And it's like, that's not really what I want to send to, um, how formal that's not what I really want to send to, uh, Greg, who's waiting for me to go to breakfast. My goodness. That's hilarious. Okay. Where were we? Um, by the way, I'm very, usually I'm the one who always has to take a pee break. This is incredible. This is two days in a row where the guests have to take a pee break. It's 11 a.m. for you right now? Yep. It's great that – would you have an example of things that maybe she coaches you on, like character traits or things that she holds you to a higher standard?

Feedback she gives you? Like, it would stress me out if my wife said, hey, I want you to make more money. I would hate that. Okay, that's a great, yeah, that's a great example. I would fucking hate that. That would be a deal breaker for me. Yeah, so one thing that one one point of attention she ever made me feel inadequate in any way

it would be a deal breaker for me i would fucking run for the hills one point of tension recently is that i am now the sole breadwinner for the first time in our relationship and you know i've started And I started this business, Soul Searching Adventures, a couple years ago, right before we sold WAG. And the truth is that it's not making nearly enough money to cover our expenses. Now, we have money invested. And I think we've been relatively wise with our our money and that can't go on forever. Yeah. That's like my podcast. Oh man, you are living parallel lives. Yeah.

So I'm making the money, but I got to ask job. I have a podcast. It's so embarrassing when she tells people I, and she's so proud, but she'll be like, like, Oh, what does someone do? She has a podcast. It's like, Oh fuck him too. Anyway. Sorry. Okay. Go on soul searching adventures.

Yeah. Soul breadwinner. And Oh, your husband takes people on soul searching adventures. How sweet. So the, the tension was that I, I have felt like I have found my calling in life. I feel like I was either born to do this work or just like all of my experience due to all of my life experience. This is the type of work that I'm supposed to be doing. And I've not wanted to taint it by focusing on how much money it makes. Oh, sorry. Tie it back to that other thing. You're holding space

for other men. I're holding space for other men i'm holding space for other men yeah exactly it's fucking brilliant yeah and adi she loves the work i do she's been my biggest champion and at the same time she she wants me to be working on covering our lifestyle expenses. We spend more than some less than yeah. And less than others. If this soul searching thing doesn't make you see the end of the runway coming, something's going to have to give you either going to have to make more money with soul searching, or you're going to have to sell something and, and, and, and, and, and maybe burn some of your retirement equity. Right? Yeah. I'm in the exact same position. Yeah. What's going to, yeah. And you're like watching, oh shit, is this going

to make more money or am I going to run out of runway and fall off the edge? Yeah. And so I, the story that I created in my head was that she was expecting me, if I couldn't close that gap, that she was expecting me to stop doing what I'm doing and do something soul-sucking just to make more money. Which would be what? Get a job back at LSU training the football team? Yeah. Or start an online company selling a product or something like that. Okay. selling a product or something like that. Okay. And when it comes down to it, what she's asking me for is to make it important to me to provide for our family. And she could sense that because I wasn't caring how much money soul searching made, that it really didn't matter to me that much. And my,

and I wasn't working as hard as I could if I was making it a priority. And we had this conversation maybe only three, three weeks ago, and she's telling me how she felt and I'm, I'm sort of catastrophizing and I'm not, I'm not like, like overly emotional, but I'm really, I'm, I'm really down in the conversation. I feel like, yeah, I feel confused. I felt confused. And we ended that conversation or one thing I'll mention is that she was just holding space. She, she was stating how she was feeling without trying to make me wrong for my feelings and not making it into a bigger deal. She was an excellent space holder that night.

But we ended that conversation with it being unresolved. And I woke up the next morning with a lot more clarity about what I was feeling. And what I was feeling is not so much a financial fear, but a fear of failure. What if I give this everything I've got, this thing that I care deeply about, and it's still not enough. What will people think of me? What does that mean about me as a man? What does that mean about me as a man? What does that mean about me as a husband and a father? And what I've been able to do since then is just watch those sensations in my body very, very quickly. I feel really proud of myself because usually in the past, if I have any sort of fear related to related to money, it is, or, or, or fear of

failure. It comes along with a lot of story that could sort of abduct my day, but now I'm just seeing it when it arises and I'm able to let it go pretty quickly. And I'm able to use all of that emotion, which is sort of just like energy. I'm able to use it to fuel me. And I'm able to use it to help me focus. And since that conversation, I have been the most- Was that your wife being like, hey, stop talking about this? No, I'm defrosting some deer meat. I've been the most productive I've been in my entire career and i have a fire under my ass that i've never had and i fucking love it

um so do you think that maybe um so it's a double fire you found your passion and you're leveraging this insecurity to succeed as energy. Yes. Yes. And I don't know. Yeah, I guess that's a little bit of the insecurity. Yeah. And a little bit of like, hey, I made this commitment to my family, to my wife to do everything in my power to just cover all of our expenses so that we don't have to spend our investments i'm a proponent of leveraging um insecurity and ego

uh consciously i mean i don't want to take my eye off of it. So it fucking runs wild, but, um, uh, I, I'm okay with, uh, I'm going to the beach in two weeks.

I'm going to see a bunch of people and I don't want to look like a total fat slob in my bathing suit. I'm going to stop eating after six o'clock at night. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a proponent of that. And we'll set on,

that's not going to last forever. You need to change your lifestyle. Well, fuck you. I'm working on it. Let this is just like, stop. Yeah. You know, like, yeah, it's cool. Yeah.

We're not, we're not enlightened beings. So because we're not enlightened, we have, we have desires and we have insecurities and. And it's better to leverage it than let it leverage you. Like the other way, by leveraging me, it's like, oh, I don't want to deal with fucking not eating. I'm just going to just drink myself into feeling numb so that thought goes away. I mean, that's the other end of it, right? Yeah. How often are you doing these soul

searching um adventures about four a year and then we're doing girls we're doing our first what we're calling couples camp this year on our land that's the only thing i do with with women right now i might do a co-ed soul searching trip at some point. And when you do the soul searching with the dudes, with the boys, that's just you. You don't have any, a D doesn't go on that. Correct. And I bring a wilderness guide with us as well. And how much does it cost? They're all different. The, The typical trip is five days. So on there, you see the 2023 adventures, the Escalante, Utah, and the boundary waters. Those are five days completely immersed in the

wilderness. Those are 3000. And then there's an international one like Bolivia, which are always invite only. And those are more, those are like in the 5,000 plus range. And, and, and what if I'm freaked out because like I, in the pictures, I see it's like you and Marsden and, and, and like, I'm like, Oh no, what if they go on a hike and I can't make it? I'm, I'm fitty. Yeah. I would say that. And part of the thing that I'm screening for when I interview people are, are you fit? Like there's definitely, you need to consider yourself a fit person, but you don't need to be able to do well in the CrossFit open necessarily. There's been a wide range of fitness levels of the, of the guys that have gone on these trips.

of the guys that have gone on these trips. And what I would say is it's something that I recommend training for. And if you're exercising consistently and you train for this, you will be able to do it. And one way to look at it, if it's sort of scary, is you can look at it as a crucible experience, like a really challenging physical experience that is so challenging that it's transformational just in the physical aspect alone. Oh, it is. I didn't, oh, I didn't get, I didn't pick that up from it. It is that typically it's not, but for people that are on the lower end of that fitness spectrum, it definitely is. We had a guy going up the guy going out of the Grand Canyon. It was the hardest physical thing he had ever done in his life. And it almost crushed him. We had to carry his pack for a little while. That moment where he almost wanted to give up, but he didn't really have a choice.

We would have to copter him out. That moment was the most, I think the most important part for him. And six months later, he ends up running a 50K race. So it totally, totally changes life. Wow, crazy. How long is the hike out of the Grand Canyon? They range from 20 to 40 miles.

In a single day? No, and over the course of the five days oh okay and then how heavy are the packs 35 ish and and and what do you do what what how do you what's the um what's the description of the soul soul no well what's the description if someone says what is the soul searching adventure what is it what do you tell them yeah the the shortest answer is it's an epic outdoor adventure with deep introspective work and what i help men find some of the most common things i help men with are number one finding clarity of their purpose in life and especially in their work. Men want to do work that is more meaningful.

They want to feel connected to their work. They want to feel like what they do actually matters to other people. I help men create deeper relationships. So with other men and with their intimate partners and with their families. And most of, if not all of the guys I work with are considered successful in the traditional sense. A lot of guys that are entrepreneurs and have made lots of money and gotten lots of recognition, but they're unsatisfied with something in their life or many things in their life. They're unsatisfied with something in their life or many things in their life. And I help them find genuine contentedness and inner peace. And the way that that works is we look at three areas of life.

We look at work, our relationship with ourself, and our relationship with others. And I give a ton of questions and exercises and prompts to guys. And then I just give them a bunch of space to contemplate and write about these things on their own. And then we just come together over and over and discuss what's coming up. And the way that I see my role on these trips is a space holder. I'm there to listen. And when I feel it's appropriate to help people go deeper into what they're experiencing and to challenge, you know, someone might be telling a story and talking about an experience. And what one of my hopes for people is that they can really relive and feel certain experiences. You know, if they're taught, if we're talking about a, a really troubling or even traumatic experience from the past, sometimes it's important to go back to feel it in our adult

bodies and to then reframe the meaning that we made out of that story. And so I'll just help people create enough safety within themselves to, to go through that process. Just as an example. Jay Hartle says, do I have to take shrooms? We don't take any shrooms unless you go on an international trip with me then we might take some plant medicine i'm flying a shaman out to bolivia for that trip and uh we're gonna build two rafts and then we're gonna float down the amazon and we're going to drink ayahuasca for a couple days on there not on the raft at a farm along the river holy shit that sounds wild it's a while

what's the oldest dude you've taken 50 to 55 and then my dad is actually going to come on a trip with me later this year which i'm just so stoked for what's the youngest dude 1920 god the thought of doing that going on a raft down the amazon interests me this much i'm such a fucking curmudgeon what a cool fucking adventure god you're a fucking good dude mr cashew thank you bro i feel the same about you what a cool thing you you you man um that uh that thing that you said about um uh yeah especially an old one, that thing that you said about, um, talking about like your job, your relationship with yourself and your relationship with others.

That's a good one. That's a, that's kind of like a nice thought to, to leave me with. So I can dig in like that. I would like to think about that today. My thought was my relationship with other people. How are they? I relationship with myself. How is it? And my relationship with my work. It's kind of amazing how many parallels our lives have. It seems like even though I'm older, it seems like we're in a lot of this same space. We did a lot of shit. We got through a lot of shit. And now we're kind of sowing.

We're living off the equity of those experiences right to to um like other people got their phd in like math we got our phd and some other shit that there's we don't have a piece of paper but we're trying to package it and share it yeah yeah that's a great that's a great analogy. And, and also sowing new seeds, you know, we're not resting on, on what we've done in the past. We're continuing to live at our edge, which I think is a really important aspect of living a full life. Yeah.

If you're a parent, that's, you can do that too. Like, because I have these kids that are changing so fast, that's, you, you can do that too. Like, because I have these kids that are changing so fast, if I stay present, I can always kind of like live on the edge with them, make sure that like I'm being, yeah, the best version of myself and making sure I'm, I guess, present with them is the best. Um, was, uh, was, did you find CrossFit and rehab? No, I got out and I trained for, and I ran the Salt Lake city marathon. I trained really hard for it so hard that I was burned out after one marathon. And so I was done with that. And I went into a 24 hour fitness a few times, just kind of floundering. And I met a guy

who was early on in recovery as well, who name was Bryce. We went snowboarding a little bit with each other. Then at some point, he said, hey, I'm doing this new thing called CrossFit. Do you want to come join me? I knew the idea of cross-training. I had no idea what to make of a gym that is called CrossFit. I went in., it's called CrossFit Energy, NRG in Salt Lake City. And we were doing a fight gone bad. And at the time, you know, I, I was the most conditioned person on every team I had ever played with. As far as I remember, even, you know, even, even more than all the black kids they were faster than me but if we were running hundreds i was the first even though i was smoking a pack

a day i was always the in the best shape and then just good metabolic capacity just great you're ready to like is that what that means conditioned okay yes and uh then i had just run a marathon and i won my age division so i think'm, I'm fucking king of the world. Right. You know, and I go in this place and there's a 50 year old woman. She kicks my ass just so, just so bad. So I was, I was so humbled and yeah, I was hooked. I was, I was hooked partly because out of leveraging insecurity, I didn't want to be,

I was like, how can she possibly beat me? Right. This can never happen again. Or, or, or like, ultimately I can't let this keep happening. And on the other side, I realized these people are doing like a hundred different movements. How fun. And yeah, I was, I was hooked very quickly and it, and it came at the perfect time in my life because in, in Alcoholics Anonymous rooms, there are, there's a lot that a lot great to say about the community, but you know, I was 18 years old and there was just too much darkness in the rooms for me. Meanwhile, these CrossFit gyms, there was a lot of growth minded people that didn't have as much heaviness in their life. And, you know, they were up to something,

they were supporting each other. They were, you know, working really fucking hard in the gym. And yeah, so much about CrossFit helped, helped me heal and recover. And, and I also, I don't, I want to be clear, Alcoholics Anonymous saved my life for sure, but this was just a great, a great thing in addition. Right. I mean, I'm glad to hear you say that about CrossFit growth minded people with growth mindset. But basically, on some level, regardless, if you're doing CrossFit, you're taking some sort of personal accountability that kind of and responsibility that sets you apart from a lot of other people currently on the planet. Yes. I really appreciate you coming on. I appreciate you having me man yeah you're you're always welcome dude you're always welcome it would be fun when's your next um soul searching

uh adventure i have one march starting march 20th so it's march 20th through the 26th in escalante utah and uh yeah this is one of the most beautiful places i've ever been can can you talk after you go on one of those, I'm sure like a lot of that stuff is private, but can you talk – is there stories you could share? I'd be curious to talk to you like after you do one of those and like just hear what happened. What is your question? Do I have stories from these experiences? I don't know what my question is. experiences? I don't know what my question is. Yeah. Like you're going to go on this trip and like, can you be like, yeah, dude, this guy fucking cried for a fucking hour and his whole

life changed and he called his wife and divorced her right there. Like, can you, or is it like, now we see the pictures of the guys, you can't share those stories. Cause I'm just curious, like what kind of, it'd be cool to talk to you when you come back from one of these and be like, Hey dude, what happened? Yeah. Yeah. So some, some stories I have expressed permission to share, but even, even anonymously, if I haven't gotten permission, I try to do my best to, to not share those. Okay. But yeah, people are almost without fail. Guys are coming on these trips and having really big epiphanies and insights. And for some of them, it completely changes their life. You know, there was a, there was a guy that came that was, you know, seriously considering divorce

and now he doesn't have a perfect relationship, but it is a great relationship and they have more respect and love. And I'm, you know, I'm happy to say that the trip was a big impetus for them coming back together as an example. God, divorce scares the shit out of me. Anytime someone tells me they went through a divorce, I know some people in the comments here have unfucked me before. Well, if you're in an abusive relationship, you got to get out but man uh one of my friends and i are always kind of like high five each other about how stoked we are we we're not divorced about divorce sounds horrible doesn't it yeah one of the worst worst pain you ever been divorced you ever been divorced no you're one and done one and done hopefully yep yeah, we've been married for six years.

I don't even know when my anniversary is, so don't even – don't worry. I have no fucking clue. We had already had a kid before we got married. We were never going to get married. Different story. Anyway, I appreciate you being on here brother uh i'm uh i thank marston for uh introducing um us and i consider you a friend and if there's ever anything i can do for you uh uh hit me up please yeah thank you brother

likewise same to you man and i'm uh i haven't gotten any of the equipment yet but we're in the in the process of selling a house right now. And so as soon as we sell the house, I'm buying my son all sorts of shit to climb on. Oh, good. Okay. Yes. Keep me posted and send me photos. I will, man.

All right. Cheers. Later. Bye. I hope you can't hear this. Hey. Sorry, that was an auto response. I didn't mean to send you what you need. I was trying to type podcast, and it hit what you need. I was trying to type podcast and it hit what you need.

Yeah, I'm ready to go. I'm ready. I'm ready. That was you. Okay. I'm ready. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to get, I'm going to, I'm going to get off the podcast here and then I'm going to, I'm going to get off the podcast here, and then I'm going to call you and come find you. Okay, bye. All right. Stop being a bitch i can't help it fuck you guys i outlasted fucking michael cashew and fucking that other brett pike on my fucking bladder that's the fucking manliest thing you guys have ever seen me do no he wasn't even pissed at all he thought it was funny what you need can't believe i sent that to him what if he would have been my boss still

holy shit i almost did that to my supervisor today like dude i'm not doing this shit right now uh yes always flexing on you guys always um did you kick kick Michael off no I didn't kick him off yeah I kicked him off but I mean it was over yeah I do drop everything for Greg that's true alright I will see you guys tomorrow morning sorry I told you guys Jason Kleba was going to be on today and it was

Michael Cashew I had that all fucked up but Jason will be here tomorrow I believe until tomorrow boy I can't wait till we do our next live call-in show so much fun shit good riddance laurie lightfoot from chicago double bird to you honey see ya and buh-bye