The Sevan Podcast - Autopsy of Lazar Đukić Finalized

Episode Date: December 23, 2024

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I'm not sure if it says it in the Barbell Spin article, but I think on November 7th, the autopsy was complete. Yeah, do you want me to bring up the article? I'll grab it. You mean from the spin? Yeah. Yeah, I'll grab it. Thank you.

He just posted it about 17 minutes ago. The title is Autopsy of Lazar Jukic Finalized. Lazar Jukic Finalized. No sign of cardiac arrest. And that's just published about 17 minutes ago. Lazard, you could drown during the first event, Lake Day at the 2024 CrossFit Games. I'm going to give you the definition of drowned. Die through submersion and inhalation of water. Died of submersion and inhalation of water I don't even know I don't even think necessarily you have to be submerged in it I think

people have gotten knocked out and fallen in like three inches of water and that's considered a drowning right but died through submersion and inhalation inhalation of water and then there's a thing deliberate to kill someone is to deliberately submerge them. This is just from Google. And then usually when you think of drowning, I think drowning is the leading cause of death for children under the age of five in the United States for sure in a lot of states. It's like a it's like a big concern Lazar Jukic Lazar Jukic drowned during the first event leg day the 2024 CrossFit Games since that day a little over four months cross CrossFit initiated a third-party

Investigation to better understand what happened that day. I think we can Safely assume or if you're not comfortable assuming this I'll assume it and then you can know where I'm coming from, that he did not inhale the water on purpose, that he did not commit suicide, right? So we can rule that out. So something, no one does that on purpose. So something happened, something happened that put him in a situation where he involuntarily was involved in the inhalation of water. And if you disagree with me, that's fine. But that's the presupposition I'm going to roll with. And I just want to be clear about that. At the same time, the Tarrant County Medical Examiner conducted an autopsy

in which the cause of death was determined to be drowning with a manner of death as an accident. So they're saying that somehow on accident, something I guess you don't do on purpose, I'd have to look up the definition of accident for you. Accident. Unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly or unintentionally. So he unintentionally inhaled water. That's what they're saying. And that was the manner and, I guess, cause of his death. The cause being the inhalation of water and the manner being an accident, unintentional or unexpected. Toxicology lab report and autopsy report were completed on August 22nd, 2024 and November 7th, 2024.

And I think that the autopsy has been available now over there for then six weeks or seven weeks. And I don't think it's published to the website yet, so I have to assume that Spin reached out to these guys, to the medical examiner and got it. A Purserun to Texas Public Information Act, the barbell spin-o requested both reports and have received them from the Tarrant County Medical Examiner in office. What we don't know is afterwards if the heart was actually sent off for a further study which is not uh uncommon study which is not uncommon to test the tissue of the heart further. Toxicological analysis, the toxicological analysis was negative and post-mortem vitreous electrolyte showed no abnormalities of glucose and post-mortem

changes of VON vitreous uro nitrogen, sodium, potassium, and chloride. I think maybe someone will chime in in the comments or someone will call in, but I think specifically that that means that there's certain chemicals the heart releases if we're having a heart attack and those were not found in the toxicological analysis. Right. Air and water temperature. The autopsy reveals that the ambient temperature on August 8th was 93 degrees Fahrenheit. The water temperature of Marine Creek Lake was measured at 85 degrees Fahrenheit. And I think from

previous reports we were told that like Ironman won't go on if the water is over 87 degrees. I think 87 degrees is considered the max that people should be doing full exertion so that they could dissipate off the heat off the body in a manner that's safe for human beings, right? So you're exercising and your body's trying to dissipate the heat, right? To keep you at 98.6. And I guess that dissipation of heat is negatively affected when you're in water to a point where they consider unsafe if the water is over 87 degrees. Right. Observations, the autopsy points to numerous... And if you see anyone in the... I'm not able to read the comments as I read this. If you see stuff in the comments that are valuable contributions, let me know. Oh, did they consult Seve on this?

Man has to be an inhalation expert with that nose. Solid, dude, brother, solid, solid point. Wow. Solid point. Observations, the autopsy points to numerous observations. Now I don't even want to look sideways. Turn my camera off. The autopsy points to numerous observations consistent with drowning as expected. So inhalation of water, mild pulmonary congestion and edema. Edema I think is filling a fluid a watery fluid in the stomach and a hemorrhage found on the right Stern of thyroid muscle are all associated with drowning the medical examiner also observed an enlarged heart

cardiomegaly cardiomegaly with left ventricle Cardiomegaly with left ventricle hypertrophy, the thickening of the left ventricle of the heart consistent with cardiac changes in athletes. It's almost it is almost more commonly referred to as the athlete's heart. If you do look up ventricular hypertrophy, hypertrophy and On Google, the definition is ventricular hypertrophy is a condition which the heart muscle ventricular thickens and enlargens. This can occur in either the left ventricle or the right ventricle. A high blood pressure, aortic valve release, hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, a genetic heart muscle disorder, diabetes, and obesity.

If left untreated, ventricular hypertrophy can lead to heart failure, stroke, and arrhythmia. So what they're saying is, is in a normal person, this could lead to a heart attack or stroke or some sort of fluttering of the heart. But according to the autopsy, this is perfectly normal for an athlete of his caliber. And he was an athlete of the highest level and in also both those modalities. I think it would be you could argue that he was the top three best runners out of the 40 fittest men in the world.

And you could argue that he was the best swimmer, excuse me, out of the 40 fittest men in the world. According to the investigation report, this 20-year-old male was competing in an international CrossFit sports competition. He was competing in a lake event and was witnessed to go under the water and not resurface. He was later recovered by fire department dive team members and was pronounced dead at the scene. According to the information from the CrossFit Games, the descendant was involved in a,

am I reading that right? The descendant? Yeah, it's got to mean, yeah. What does that mean? What does that mean? The guy who died? Yeah. Oh, okay.

The descendant was involved in a run and swim event at Marine Creek Lake. The event considered, uh, consisted of a run of three and a half miles from the boat ramp to across the lake. Is that consistent with what we knew? Did we think it was three miles? Yeah. It was supposed to be like a five K in the swim, right? Three and a half.

Okay. So whatever it is. Okay. like a 5k than the swim right three and a half okay whatever it is okay once there the athletes were to swim across the lake a half a mile about 800 meters what is that twenty six hundred feet back to the starting point the ambient temperature that day was 93 in the water temperature was 85 and not at autopsy the descent was well developed well well nourished, male appearing, the reported age. There was a bruise on the right side of the forehead with underlying hemorrhage of the

subgallial area. There was a hemorrhage at the base of the right sternothoracic thyroid muscle of the neck. There were mild pulmonary congestions and edema, there was water fluid present in the stomach, there was cardiomegaly, enlarged heart with left ventricle, hypertrophy, thickening of the left ventricle, all stuff that we saw before, consistent with cardiac changes in an athlete, also known as athlete's heart. The postmortem, that means after he's dead, toxicological analysis was negative, meaning there was no sign of like the heart didn't fire off the chemicals or the brain didn't fire off the chemicals that it does I guess that are present when someone has a stroke or a heart attack and post mortem vitreous electrolytes showed no abnormalities of glucose post mortem changes of sodium potassium and chloride. Okay. Meaning that the system all the oil all the oil and fluids were right.

Wasn't like he was low on electrolytes and freaked out. Right. Cardiac genetic studies performed on post-mortem blood samples were negative for any abnormalities. In my opinion, that this 28-year-old male died as a result of unintentionally inhaling water. Browning. The manner of death is unexpected, an accident. I think this supports your point from the other day, the fact that he was so strong and these events doubles down on it being a freak anomaly.

If it's going to happen to someone crazy, it was him. I will tell you my bias, and I know I'm gonna get just completely hammered in the comments for this, but there's no amount of doctors or science that can't tell me that something happened to his heart out there. Like telling me that he accidentally drowned, that he

accidentally inhaled water unexpectedly, it's a nothing burger to me. To quote the great Tommy Marquez. I just, it's something, something, I would like to know if they got his heart and they studied his heart more. The autopsy reported Lozor's left ventricle free wall thickness to be 1.8 centimeters. This is considered within range of an athlete's heart, but above an average thickness of 1.1 to 1.3 centimeters for non-athletes. We have to remember that Lozor had two other incidents at the Capitol, at the, fuck, I don't remember what year of games it was, at the Capitol event in Madison and then also in the Burj Khalifi tower in Dubai. That one was really scary. Right. I think it was Lauren Khalil or someone was reporting live from there and that

sounded like that was a complete fucking horror show Uh, he showed up at the top of that He had crawled also that was in a situation where the stairwell was reportedly to be extremely hot Right another uh situation where he couldn't really necessarily um displace into the heat Yeah And so, uh, you uh, sleeky says I don't remember how hot it was in madison when they did the capital event But madison got very hot and very cold and That was a long event that involved a lot of running and then heavy weightlifting and

Then of course the Burj Khalifa. I want to say they were wearing a vest They were okay a hundred flights of stairs and I want to say something like he couldn't remember the last 20 He doesn't remember the last 20 flights where he climbed on his on all four. He wasn't even standing Mm-hmm So he showed up there at the top of that and I think people were scared shitless that he was gonna die a Microscopic examination did not find any fibrosis or Arrhythmia within the heart nor was any plaque buildup found in his arteries.

I don't know what this is. Let me look this up. Arrhythmia is a medical term that refers to redness of the skin. It occurs when the blood vessel in the skin dilates. Below is the section showing where there were no signs of plaque buildup. 0% and it's all zero. Yeah. Across the board. Yeah. It does appear the responders did attempt to provide medical intervention as the autopsy noticed electrocardiographic pads on Jukic's back. Oh, meaning they tried to resuscitate him after they pulled him up? Yeah. I mean, you kind of have to, right? Just his protocol, even though he, I mean, he was under for more than 40 minutes, right?

Yeah, it was a long time. It seemed like an eternity when we were there, but it was a long time. There was also no evidence of injury to the brain or central nervous system or any bone fractures. Cardiovascular observations. This is all at the barbell spin. You can check it out yourself. As mentioned above, the medical examiner noted cardiomegaly with left ventricle hypertrophy consistent with what is commonly called athlete's heart while quick Google search could make it appear that this is concerning it is common for high-level athletes it's estimated and by common I think it would be better to say that this is not uncom uncommon because it's only two percent it's estimated that approximately two

percent of athletes especially elite long-distance runners cyclists and triathletes have athlete's heart. For these athletes who are consistently performing rigorous aerobic activity, the enlargement of the heart is natural adaptation to deal with the high pressure and large amounts of blood flow required during this training. It being normal, but it doesn't mean that it's not dangerous. Do you get what I'm saying here? Yeah. A distinction has to be drawn behind that. There's a conflation of that in both the autopsy and how it's presented here in the barbell spin. It

being normal and it being safe are not... Yeah, they're not interlinked. Yeah, they're not interlinked that you that's not that's not conclusive Well, and you could you could further say that that knowing somebody or having cancer is relatively common, right? Everybody probably knows one person relatively close to them or one degree of separation does not mean that that is safe right what I'd like to know if if the, you know, people are dying every weekend in Ironman and triathlons in the swim from heart conditions, I'd love to know, are 90% of those have a, are part of that 2% that have a thickening of the left ventricular wall? Because if so, then it's the exact opposite of the way it's being presented in this article and the way the autopsy is presenting it

Yeah, but I also think too that like I wonder how much of that actually played a role That yeah, that's my point yeah, like that's my point like just because it's normal and 2% Right like then now we need to know of all the guys who are having heart attacks in the water and there's a shitload of them every year. What percent of them had that thickening of the heart that that's athletes heart? Yeah. And my, the theory that I take on it is actually that that aside, um, had nothing to actually do with, with his passing.

You don't. I don't, I. I don't. I don't know enough about the heart and what happens if you redline it, essentially. If you just rev the engine and just hold it there, just pay it to that thing, just fire up and you just hold that capacity for that long. First off, I don't even have the fitness level to understand what that's like. But more importantly, for me, if we think about the two things that we reference, right, the stair run in Dubai, and then we think about the capital, what was the issue across

both of those? He pushed himself to the point to where he redlined because he has so much, his fitness is so high that it's almost a dangerous level to himself in those scenarios. And in both those scenarios, he became pretty much physically incapacitated, mentally and physically incapacitated. You just noted before how he said he didn't remember partly the back end of the stairs. He wasn't able to lift his hands above his head. He wasn't able to get his heart rate back down. Well, on land, that results in crawling. That results in resting. That results in laying there. On water, that results in going under the water.

So you're saying that that's inherent to all professional sports, where people are going to push themselves as hard as they can? That's what I think. I think that he knew that that was his to win and he wanted it bad. And I think that he was, he is of a fitness level, physically and mentally, to take himself to a very extreme push, that I would say even less common than anything with the enlarged heart for an athlete,

he possessed. And so I just think it was this really unfortunate, perfect storm of some, somebody that was such a high level athlete in this particular event that he was able to push himself to a deadly level. Uh, left ventricle hypertrophy in this context is likely inconsequential asymmetric left ventricle thickening caused outflow obstruction, but symmetric thick thickening found in athletes is benign.

Oh, that's interesting. Thank you, Charles, for that. Basically what he's saying is if just a portion of it's thickened, it could fuck up the pumping. But if it's all thickened on the left side, that it might not affect the pumping. Clive McLaughlin, the thickening is as a result of intense exercise. Basically, his heart was jacked and buff like other muscles are so you better Hope it wasn't the cause wouldn't be a great advert for CrossFit and hey, don't be surprised if you see an article out soon in some newspaper saying that exercise causes

Heart attacks But but the once again the thing is is it says it's estimated that approximately 2% of athletes have that. I mean, I don't like any of that. How are we defining an athlete 2%? Where is it like, if I'm sorry, I've been reading too much Dave Stove stuff preparing for Greg here. So immediately I read estimated approximately

estimated, approximately 2% athletes. Where are we basing this information out of? And Patrick Clark says athletes will die for points. That was Brian Friend's statement. It's interesting because I've always thought of that as a poetic license on Greg's part. Yeah. And I think the term was men will die for points. Yeah. And so I think that that is a, I think that that's a more than a little bit of a stretch. For these athletes who consistently perform regressor aerobic activity, the enlargement of the athlete's heart is a natural adaptation, but that doesn't

mean it's good to deal with the high pressure and large amounts of blood flow required during this training. Additionally, the heart will increase the chamber size of the left ventricle and mass and wall thickness of the heart. In many cases, it's considered harmless and the heart will return to normal after approximately three months of reduced stress or exercise. I spoke with Dr. Will Wright, who reviewed the autopsy. Dr. Wright attended the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School Residency at Cleveland Clinic and Vascular Interventional Fellowship

at UC San Diego. Additionally, he has been around the CrossFit community for over a decade. Regarding the observations of Lozars heart, Dr. Wright said the autopsy mentioned left ventricular hypertrophy, which is often seen in athletes, 2% of the time. And although there are other causes for the finding, it is safe to assume it was due to

well-conditioned state. Once again, does a well-conditioned state, we don't know. We have to see, I have to see that number of how many of the people who've had heart attacks who are athletes had that left ventricle thickening. And while it is true that athletes' hearts is not without risk because the symptoms can be confused with more serious conditions such as hypertrophic, cardiomyopathy, and Lazar's case,

given his extraordinary abilities, which they were, and longer events, which they were, and Dr. Wright's opinion, it is highly unlikely the observations were anything more than from his prolonged training as an elite athlete. Once again, I can I can go with that, but what are the implications when you do have that an enlarged thickening or a thickening of the wall of the left ventricle and an enlarged heart? What are the implications of that of you being more susceptible to a heart attack or some sort of heart thing?

The autopsy did not reveal anything that would indicate pre-existing conditions or observations outside of the fact that Lazar drowned We know his pre-consisting conditions the capital event in the Burj Khalifa both two good elements of his pre Pre-existing condition the autopsy of the athlete was overall unremarkable pre-existing condition. The autopsy of the athlete was overall unremarkable, shared Dr. Will Wright. The term unremarkable is used frequently in the autopsy report in regards to noting something was normal or common. Now listen, Craig Richie and other people, this is not an offensive line, unremarkable. That's not, that's a medical term. No one is suggesting that Lazar Djukic wasn't unremarkable. Everyone thinks he's remarkable. Please know everyone thinks Lazar Jukic is remarkable. This unremarkable comment is not about Lazar Jukic. That's a medical term that's frequently used in the

autopsy reports in regards to something was normal. Okay? Unfortunately we will never know the exact reason that Lazar began to struggle in the water on day one of the 2024 CrossFit Games. Dr. Wright summarized, we can only learn from these unfortunate events. The conclusions is the cause of death was drowning. So I did also speak to a doctor and they said that we have to get the heart and the heart has to be have further studies on it to know for sure. I'm going to guess that that has been done or was done and

it would be nice if we could find out more of what kind of a workup Lazar Jukic did have after what happened at the Capitol in Burj Khalifa. I'm guessing he went to a doctor and they ran tests on him and that there was some sort of like, he got some sort of feedback on what happened. I do believe in Dubai he was taken to the hospital after the Burj Khalifa. It would be interesting to see those records and what those doctors found out there in Dubai. Joel, a loss or fatigue to the max probably inhaled a bit of water and then drowned from there.

I've also heard that theory, too, that he just he swallowed some water, although he probably wouldn't speak about it. It would be really nice to hear Dave talk about the money that was pulled from the games last year, as in hiring dive teams, lifeguards, lifeguards, et cetera. As in hiring dive teams, lifeguards, lifeguards, et cetera. Larry shark, Sevan is caught up in his heart. I would respond to that, but I don't know what that means.

Yeah, I think it's more I I'm kind of leaning towards a sign of a Joel here where like even if there was Some sort of pre-existing condition I think that if it was something that was going to take that much of effect It would have shown up in this autopsy because we've seen stuff before Where you've had these people that have done, you know Endurance type stuff have made a really far in their careers Then all of a sudden have this issue and they bring them in and there's some glaring genetic thing that was wrong with their heart that they had no idea like the first thing that comes to mind was like Goggins like he did all those long ass endurance runs and all this shit and had like a hole in his heart that he wasn't

aware of But that was something that was glaring and so who knows there might have been some sort of condition that his upper limit because he was able to redline the vehicle so much that his upper limit because he was able to redline the vehicle so much because his capacity was so great that it might have just been one of those situations where like I said there's no stopping and putting your hands on your knees in the water there's no and think about this too if in both I don't remember for the capital so I can't really speak on that but as far as the Burj Khalifa stuff like him saying that he was crawling and couldn't lift his hands up above his head. I mean, imagine that situation in a body of water.

He doesn't even remember the last 20 flights, he said. So, I mean, if you have something to where, and by the way, too, I would just like, this is somewhat off topic, but I would just like to note the mental strength and fortitude an individual has to possess to get to take themselves to that way is really rare. Most people would give up far, far, far before that. So I just think he was just, man, he's just one of those. He was so talented as an athlete and just had so much capacity that he was able to take himself, like I said, to, to a dangerous expression of that. And when it happens at water, um, especially to, can you imagine like when you're finding intensity and you're in a workout, right? This might be a little, a little, uh, abstract, but like, and you got

your set of nine of thrusters in friend and all you want to do is hold onto that nine and you're like, you didn't even really know where you're at. You're just like mentally, you're just like, get me done with these nine. I'm right there. I could see the finish line. Um, you know, that might've been something that he was thinking through that point where he was like i'm right there I could see the finish line. I just got to get myself there And then his body started to give up on him

Maybe some of those same things that presented themselves that those other events started to take place And like I said in water that just makes it far far far more detrimental Uh spin good morning. Hi, larry the shark that just makes it far, far, far more detrimental. Spin, good morning. Larry the shark, if you read it correctly, it makes sense. If you read it correctly, Larry, just so you know, what it says is that he unexpectedly and unintentionally inhaled water and therefore unexpectedly and unintentionally killed himself. Are you suggesting that Lazar Jukic killed himself? Because if you read it correctly, that's what you're saying. That's what you're saying.

That's all we have. Spin, is that your take on it too? We looked up some of the definitions of these words, accident and drowning. And drowning is the inhalation of water and accident is unintentional, unexpectedly. And that's the takeaway from the report right? Yeah, yeah, I mean it's um. And no one, I, I, I, and so I'm not sure what this guy means by if I, if I read it correctly it makes sense. It doesn't, it, that doesn't, that doesn't make sense to me. Yeah. I mean it makes sense to me, but I want, but I, it makes sense to me, but I want but I it makes sense to me. I agree with Larry, but I want more I don't think it has

the answer we all wanted right like I'm saying that from a standpoint of it doesn't give any smoking gun as to what happened Right. Well, we know is that he drowned he At some point he inhaled water and he drowned it doesn't point to any cardiac event that is that you could say that's what he had he had a cardiac event he had a stroke he had a heart attack he had arrhythmia like it doesn't say that there's no congenital heart issues that was found. Um, we just don't know,

right? Right. And, you know, like athletes heart is common. Two percent of athletes have it. Two percent. Right. That's common. Yeah. Okay. I would say 51% to me personally. Yeah, I mean, it's, I guess, yeah, it depends on your definition of how you how common you think it is. But like the hard part is like the left ventricular issue, right? Like, yes, that happens in athletes. If you're not an athlete, it's a serious problem. But you can also be an athlete and have a serious problem that you're not going to see it show up. And so it's tough. Like, it doesn't say that he didn't have arrhythmia. It doesn't say that he, you know, like, we just don't know. And there might have been maybe more

further tests that could be done. But it doesn't like, I don't think that the medical examiner's needs to at this point, right? Like it was an accident, he drowned. That's all that's all we're gonna get. That's all we really honestly need. But if he if he didn't have the Burj Khalifa event, and if he didn't have the capital event, I could roll over and agree with you because he'd been training long enough.

Who knows what other events he's had that we don't know about. Charles Pagels, this autopsy report essentially confirms that he was otherwise healthy. David Johnson, so if someone at the paddleboard would have saw him go under, do you think they would have gotten him quick enough before he sank? Let's just play that out completely. Let's say he was swimming in a cage and the second he went under,board would have saw him go under, you think they would have gotten him quick enough before he sank? I mean, let's just play that out completely. Let's say he was swimming in a cage and the second he went under, they would have pulled him up and immediately started performing life-saving measures on him for whatever was going on. Would he have lived?

I mean, that's a great question. Yeah. Unfortunately, I don't know if we can say Definitively no you can say though but that he didn't die at the capital he didn't die at the Burj Khalifa because he didn't go under and He did get some sort of attention, right? And I mean like talking to dr. Wright like you you know, he obviously knows about CrossFit he's been around the space for over a decade he was aware of that and like in his opinion about CrossFit, he's been around the space for over a decade.

He was aware of that. And like, in his opinion, probably should have gotten tested. We don't know if Lazar did or not. I think his kind of takeaway is like, look, if you are an athlete that has competed and has had issues or had things that have occurred that may be similar to Lizar.

Like go, go get tested, go talk to a provider, a specialist, um, just to, just to make sure like, don't, don't sweep it on the rug and say that, Oh, I just went too hard. Like, Hey, do you think that they might require some sort of, um, testing in the future? Like cardiac testing or some sort of stress test or just anything, or is it still going to be at athletes risk? I personally think it should be the athletes decision to go do that and make sure that they're at, at that.

I, I know that there was a lot of talk right after this of like, well, cross switch should be doing, you know, Some type of medical exam ahead of time to clear athletes As an athlete I wouldn't want that and The examples I've said several times is there was a woman that was on the team who competed at the games while pregnant She was pretty early on But she competed in like if CrossFit is in charge of that But she competed in like if CrossFit is in charge of that, they say you can't compete. That's too risky. Even though she consulted with her physician the entire time she was training for the games.

And so who do you want making that decision? You and your doctor or somebody else's doctor for you? Right. Well, you want an evaluation. Yeah, I think at bare minimum, you want an honest evaluation and then you make the decision yourself. Yeah, that think at bare minimum, you want an honest evaluation and then you make the decision yourself. Yeah, that's fair. Imagine the state Taylor was in doing box jumps when he fell backwards off the box.

Now put someone in that state in overhead water and you can see how dangerous the situation becomes. Yeah, absolutely. A great, a great example. Yeah, that probably would have been fatal. And you know, Taylor's wife was terrified when she saw that happen to him. That's not that's probably not you could probably draw parallels to it right just ones on a box and ones in the water. Yep I saw Valerie Vogel pass out at a run

event in 2009 crossing the finish line I've seen a handful of people pass out at the CrossFit Games. I mean, Kara Saunders swerving on the Murph, like she wouldn't have known where she was swimming. Yeah. And I bet you that every day, every hour of every day someone's in a hot Pilates class, they feel the wah, wah, wah, wah, wall they feel the the world closing in on sleeky people I want answers and to place blame you don't always get answers to place blame some things suck and are what they are The thing is this there's there's like The vast majority people don't want to talk about that. They're very comfortable talking about the accountability on CrossFit part they're not happy talking about the Calib CrossFit's part. They're not happy talking about the accountability with Lazar, Lazar Jukic's part

because it seems politically incorrect. Even if the answer were there, and it could save lives, they don't want to talk about it because they're scared because of the the emotional backsplash that they would get. That it just it seems politically incorrect to to put any of the accountability or responsibility on Lazar and I would say I would say Taylor Would take responsibility for continuing to push as hard as he could could have yeah He did not blame. Yeah, he didn't blame JR or CrossFit Inc or You know, he also didn't die. I also...

Go ahead. I was just going to say Spins had something earlier and I just want to clarify what he had said just because you know, some things get taken out of context every now and then. But he said it wasn't necessarily the answer we were all looking for. And what he meant right there is some sort of certainty, some sort of way that we can wrap our head around this and just say it wasn't an awful mistake and that there could have been something done or we could have known something or something happened to him.

So this can't happen to me. And I think that happens a lot when we're confronted with our mortality and the whole entire game of if this, then that what, if it's like you play that with everything, I mean, I remember playing it with a friend of mine that had passed away and the whole thing, I was thinking the whole time, man, if he didn't go through that yellow light, he still would have been alive Because he would have hit a stop sign A mile up the road the lady wouldn't have ran or he would have to stop mouth the road the lady Have wanted to have ran the stop sign. He wouldn't have been, you know slotted all over the asphalt

And so like you just constantly are searching for that and I think that with this autopsy a certain Percent of us consciously or subconsciously we're hoping there has to be some sort of good reason for this to happen. It can't just be this awful of a mistake because then we're just left to this dissension of chaos of well we have to blame somebody had to be somebody's fault it definitely couldn't have been his in any regard. Yeah. I mean have I have my wife read it before I published it. Like, just look at this again.

And she's like, you're kind of not saying anything. Like, but that's what the autopsy says. Like, it doesn't say anything that we kind of didn't already know from the medical examiner saying it was a drowning and it was an accident. You know, and, and in all fairness, we know that no one retrieved him either. I don't know what the fuck this name is. I apologize. I agree that if the paddleboarder had reached him, we cannot say with certainty that he

would have been saved. However, it's reasonable to suggest his chances of survival would have improved 100%. I don't even think you reasonable to suggest his chances of survival would have improved. 100%. I don't even think you have to suggest it. I think that's totally... God, it would be so great if he would have been plucked out of the water. We would be dealing with a completely different situation. David Johnson, because of his low body fat, he probably sank very quickly, meaning the

paddleboarders would have had a very small window of time to get him. I mean, but an experienced lifeguard could just once they get him, they can just turn on their back and I have to assume at that point a shitload of people would have jumped in. I mean, this was right at the water's edge where he went down. Another thing that's great is if he would have drowned out in the middle of the lake and gone down, they'd be still looking for him today. I mean, they're lucky it didn't happen in 40 feet of water. Yeah, that's the thing that you always, I mean, at the end of the day, you had two lifeguards, 25 feet on either side of them. And they didn't notice it. Right? Like,

Miss Taylor, what about the other athletes that were struggling? It's the CrossFit Games, it's the Test, the Fittest. I hope they were struggling. Several talked about how that was the scariest swim they've ever done. I appreciate them saying that, but we hear that every single year from the swim events.

Every single year, especially when they used to do the ocean swims. It wasn't just Lazar that was struggling. It seems the event was unsafe. If that's your metric for unsafe is that people were struggling, then the entire CrossFit Games is unsafe. Yeah, well, that's always gonna add just to add to that. Yes, the whole entire thing is unsafe. Yeah. Period. Every single year it's been done. It's unsafe because you are taking a bunch of really fit

people and pushing their limits and having them compete. It's gonna be unsafe. No, Cole, I do not mean to put Missy on blast. It's just that, were they lifeguards though? Or were they deep deep they lifeguards though? Or were they deep deep sea water rescue specialists or were they, um, uh, Olympians with, uh, 20 years of, um, Of of water safety, uh, I I don't know. That's just about as pointless as every single what-if argument Yeah, like it's um, it's weird people have used that and have kind of stood on this like moral high ground with it. And it's like, you're playing the same exact thing as if they had stopped at the stoplight sooner. I was pretty spooked to swim at NorCal, which was in like, by the way, which was like two feet of water at any point you could stand. The amount of kayaks and paddleboards in the water made it a non concern as athletes who were terrible in the water, who were terrible in the water.

Yeah. Wasn't, I mean, NorCal was like so shallow too. Correct? I mean, very, very, very shallow. Yeah. I mean, you saw, I think, uh, was it Taylor that just stood up in the last portion of it and just like waited his way through? Uh, great point by Clive.

Do you need to be trained lifeguard to use your eyes? It wasn't the failure to save. It was the failure of, uh, to see the need to save. And that's exactly, thank you. Boy, that's the first time I've heard it like that. That's well said. That's exactly the point that I keep making. It's like, you know, listen, you could play the what if game and sure.

What if you switched it out with the most competent, you know, possible lifeguard if nobody saw because of the event was happening, nobody saw. And so it, it's just, again, it's that search for blame. It's the search for blame. Oh, one in 500 young people in the United States have an enlarged heart. What is that? That's like a quarter of 1%. Um, and enlarge heart may cause the heart to be too fast or too slow and may lead

to a fainting or cardiac arrest or sudden death. There is a, in, in Man's and in triathlons There's a big lot of big talk about what they call shallow water blackouts And there's there's a lot of people who talk about that So that's so that's what we know Is there anything you want to add to that? It sounds like I think in summation, the autopsy shows like Charles was saying that he was in good health and that enlarged heart is common and that it may have even helped him. It's a coping mechanism.

It's an adaptation the body goes through, but we don't actually know if it helps. And what we really need to see is we need to see the stats on people who drown, athletes who drown in the water who have these enlarged hearts. Like if it's like disproportionate to people who don't, then we have a little bit of an issue. Something worth investigating. Did you guys touch on the temperature of the water? Yes. Please go. Because we did get clarification on that.

You know, it was not 100, first of all, it was not 100 degrees at the time of the event. It was 93. And then the water temperature was measured at 85 degrees. And it's been a while since I've kind of looked into it, but I know like some of the thresholds is like 87, 88, where they say, you know, you probably shouldn't be doing some events Because of heat dissipation right especially at max exertion. Yeah, so I mean it was within that line I mean it's close but it was not you know 90 degrees or things like that where some of the rumors were talking about several months ago Melissa he wanted that event, correct?

He was struggling for a while, but never asked for help. I don't know that. Maybe he did ask for help. I don't know that. Thinking he was close, he could make it. He probably did. I have asked people, I did speak to some drowning experts and they said that even when people need help and they're in that situation, they won't even be able to ask for it and He may have been for all we know he may have been in trouble for a long time You know when my sons are choking me out, I always forget to tap and I start to panic and so

If he's going down and he's singularly focused on saving himself, asking for help might not have even been, you know, even a possibility. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So why did so many athletes overheat? I heard it was 87 plus degrees. Did they change that? It's like, I don't know of any athletes that overheated at that event Yeah, I don't understand the what does he mean by that? Yeah, i'm not sure Where there was some sort of medical issue because that wasn't the case. I was at the finish line And hey, and it was close to the maximum temperature the threshold, you know 85 is only two degrees away from it

Um, but the body also is very sensitive, you know, someone is in serious danger at 96.6 as opposed to 98.6. It does seem like there's a greater threshold to be warm than cold. All right. Anything else? Spin great article. Thank you. You got it very quickly. I got a question for you. If this was available on November 7th, what took so long for anyone to publish it? it was an accident and it was updated. It said it was a drowning. Um, but the actual like report completed, continued to say no. And so online, online, it's online. Right. And so I think a lot of people, uh, myself included was like, well, eventually

they'll, they'll flip that over to yes. And then it's kind of like the green light to go request. And it was like, all right, well, it's been so long. Might as well let's just reach out and see. And I was able to get ahold of the of the Tarrant County Medical Examiner's Office and they said it was completed. So I did all the necessary paperwork to get that. And do you do you guys do gentlemen think that it's fair to assume that CrossFit Inc already had this and that Lucas lawyers and family already had this? I'm sure Luca got it. The only thing I would say about

Luca and all of that is, and I think he was right on the heart condition, but like when he spoke in September saying there it's known that there's no heart issues, I don't know if he got a preliminary report or somebody had told him something, but it was not before the report was completed. Right. Or maybe he, or maybe, maybe a Loser Jukic did do a workup after the Burj Khalifa and after the Capitol. And they said, no, very, very well could be.

Um, but yeah, I'm sure Luca and his family have received it. I'm sure that that's communicated directly to them, but not public consumption. I would assume CrossFit is aware of it, but I don't know. All right, guys, thank you for the quick show. More to come, we'll keep posted. Of course, the fastest news in the space over at the Barbell spin fastest most accurate

Most honest, uh, thanks for jumping on matt suza executive producer of the seven podcast. Make sure you go over to the school website sk o ol forward slash Backslash media launch backslash media launch for the most comprehensive largest library of tools if you are an affiliate. All things from best business practices to marketing to media to there's a big community over there you can ask anyone questions there it's a great chat room a great place to get all the skills you need to run an affiliate. Talk to you guys soon

Bye. Bye No, tengo más opción que tirarme al suelo Lo he dado todo Esto no me asusta he pasado por esto antes to throw myself to the ground. I have given it all. This doesn't scare me, I've been through this before, like in the first training, several years ago. My coach has known how to demand me, sometimes more, sometimes less. My classmates go through the same thing. I never thought that at 44 I could do this. And I will continue to do it until my body can no longer.