The Sevan Podcast - CrossFit VS Weightlifting | Taylor Self & Tanner Shuck Debate

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

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Oh, here we go. Bam, we're live guys. Welcome to the show. A first. Hey, thanks for having us. A first, an organized debate. It's the first. Usually there's a lot of debating, but it's just me yelling at people that men are men

and women are women. Hey, who's Trump and who's Biden? Oh, I'm not. Well, Biden's not in it anymore, is he? Shit, who's Kamala? Tanner Show. Well, Biden's not in it anymore, is he? Shit, who's Kamala? I personally avoid politics, but yeah. Tanner Shuck from True Strength, Taylor Sell from Sentinel Training. Very nice of Tanner. Tanner's been on the show before. We had a great show together.

And it would be unfair to say that Tanner has stepped into a non-biased situation. That would be completely untrue. He stepped into the home of Kil Taylor, a beloved cornerstone of the Sevalon Podcast channel. There was a discussion that you guys were, there was a, you went on the Mark Ripitow podcast and you said some things on there that got Taylor's cackles Cackles, I will say I listened to it and mark. I was more cackled up over mark Then I listen to it to mark said some crazy shit on there. Well, first I'll say anything crazy on there

But mark definitely said some crazy shit. I I appreciate you've taken the time to listen to that Taylor So at least you're, you know, have an understanding of where it's coming from. And dude, I understand Mark Ripito. Mark Ripito and Greg Glassman, they're both, you know, very polarizing men. For sure. That's a good thing.

It's not a bad thing. And so before we get into the debate, is it okay if I play, do you guys care if I play the clip that got Taylor fired up first? And then you can go ahead and talk Tanner and say what you think the differences are or where the debate is going. If that adds context to the show and it's going to help it, you know, better go for

it. Okay. Let me so this is the clip that you saw Taylor originally that got you so passionate about Tanner. Is that correct? Correct. Okay. Try, try, uh, no, no, um, porn hub, uh, Taylor, what would you train? Right.

Not training. Crusher training is that's high intensity exercise, but you cannot constantly vary a training modality and predictably make increases in the expression of that training modality. I couldn't say that any better. And that's coming from a CrossFitter and I was an elite CrossFitter. I still do some CrossFit, but CrossFit training in its purest sense is overrated, cannot be constantly varied and you cannot expect to get stronger, fitter or better at anything

if you're constantly changing what you're doing. If you're going to do anything, just get stronger. That's what you better at anything if you're constantly changing what you're doing. If you're gonna do anything, just get stronger. That's what you need to do. Crossfit training. Okay, so that's the one that got Taylor's cackles up. Okay, go ahead, you go first, Tanner. What do you think that the place is gonna be?

Actually, I was hoping, I was hoping, Savan. I mean, if Taylor would be okay, yeah, he can first, just tell me what he thinks, why I'm wrong. And I mean, if you guys want me to come on the podcast, I'm happy to do it. But first off, tell me your stance, please. Yeah. Podcast, by the way, too late. Well, I, after listening, I think there, well, there's a lot of anecdotal things that Mark says, but I let's start with just that clip.

I think for me, it starts with, well, if we're talking about the average person, we need to agree upon what the average person is. And if we're talking about general health, we got to agree on what is health. To me, when I hear in the realm of fitness and health, I am not thinking in like a performance standpoint. I feel like, you know, there's a big gap between like what most people see is CrossFit and that's the games and what CrossFit is really for. The methodology was started to cure chronic disease or to fight against chronic disease. So when I think about the average person in America, the average person's fat as fuck.

They're obese. The average person is obese. They have chronic disease. They have metabolic syndrome. And most people, not even counting CrossFit, but outside the realm of CrossFit, they agree that health is the absence of disease. So if I, I mean, to me, if the average person, or at least in America is obese and health is the absence of chronic disease, I don't possibly see how just

getting stronger could fix that problem. Cause I can get fatter and stronger. So you're defining health as absence of disease, Taylor absence of disease in the average person is has chronic disease, or at least a lot of people that need exercise have person is has chronic disease or at least a lot of people that need exercise have metabolic syndrome, chronic disease, obesity. That's a good point. And I wouldn't even disagree with any of that. And I think my definition of health would be, dude, why do people die? Like, why do people die? Fundamentally, why

do people die? Do you know why? Chronic disease is the leading killer in the United States Cut out He said chronic is the leading cause in the United States leading cause. Yeah Right like cancer heart disease high blood pressure heart attack stroke shit all that agreed The reason why people die is they eat shit and they stop moving. They do not move, okay?

And another big reason why people die is sarcopenia, literally the loss of muscle mass. And like doing CrossFit is great. Any kind of exercise is amazing. But what keeps people alive and moving, all right, is their ability to move their body and a strong muscles having muscle, the longer you can preserve your muscle mass is the longer you're going to live. Like it's literally that fundamental to me in my eyes.

I definitely agree with that. The more muscle mass you have, the bigger head, since you're building against death. I guess when I hear things like, okay, how you move your body or how long you can move your body, there's a point in the podcast where Mark Rippetoe goes, "'Nobody ever got anything from doing 100 air squats "'except getting super sore.'" And then you made a point maybe five minutes later that was like, okay, let's talk about an 80 year old guy

getting out of a chair. And I thought to myself, well, that's just an air squat. So that hundred air squats that that guy does, if he's 80 years old, makes him a whole lot better at getting out of a chair. And I thought to myself, well, that's just an air squat. So that hundred air squats that that guy does, if he's 80 years old, makes him a whole lot better at getting out of a chair, because he just does it a hundred times. So if we're talking about strength, you can do that with body weight exercises.

In your big six, you talk about dips and pull-ups, but a lot of body, a lot of strength, especially for older people, is just the hierarchy of development is, can you control your body? How do you move your body? And it's not even talking about an external load. I got it, dude. But I hear that. But I'm just telling you how you interact with your external environment is your ability to display strength or your how you can, how much force you can exert against your external environment is what I'm saying. Dude, being strong is

fundamental that you have to be strong enough to get out of a chair. And doing air squats at bodyweight is not going to preserve or maintain your strength. You have to actively work to do that. Because no matter what, once you pass the age of 30, you are losing muscle mass. And that is why strength training, resistance training is fundamental. All right. And people's health moving forward. Like let me, let me word it like this, dude, if you had your grandfather, 80 year old grandfather, are you going to have him doing CrossFit workouts, high intensity functional movements? All right. Or are you just going to have your grandpa lifting some weights, making sure that he can get out of a chair, pick something up off the ground?

Like we have three, I was going to say we have three women that take the three 30 class that I teach at our affiliate that are all over 80 and every day they come in for the CrossFit workout and I give them a version that's perfect for their age. And so not just things like strength, but there's a lot of that. They also squat with their body weight. They do jumping variations. They do things that work on their balance. Cause if you're 80 years old and you take a misstep and you fall, you know,

balance helps with being 80 years old as well. We don't want our clients to fall. We want to be able to get up to for sure. But dude, what improves balance being strong? Right? Have you ever seen a person with really good balance that can't get out of a chair? You understand like the really strong people who don't have good balance, rather't get out of a chair. You understand what I mean? No, but there's really strong people who don't have good balance. Rather there's really strong people that could not have balance, but every strong person is gonna have a much easier time standing about a chair, walking upstairs,

than a person that doesn't have enough muscle mass to even move their body. And like every- Let me ask you this real quick. If you took someone, let's say you just took someone and they could only do 10 air squats unbroken and then you took their baseline back squat right, 65 pounds right, let's say a 40 year old man he can back squat, he's 50 pounds overweight and he

can back squat 65 pounds, That's his max, right? The in some people be like that's completely Yes, 65 pounds for 10 reps. Is that is that what you're saying? Yeah, you got a one rep max back squat of 65 pounds and I think that that's fair yesterday I saw a 14 year old kid who couldn't climb the fence at the skate park and a 12 year old kid who couldn't find the fence I mean just they couldn't even step up on the wall to get to the fence. It was crazy. Cause they're over fat and under muscle.

Over fat and under muscle. Right. And these are skinny boys, but clearly under muscle. But, um, and, and high voices. Uh, so these, um, so let's say we take a guy, he can do, uh, he has max back squat of a 65 pounds and he can do 10 air squats. Do you think that if we put him through the protocol to where we didn't have him back squat at all heavy weight, but we got him up to where he could do two sets of 50 air

squats, that his back squat would go up to double? You think it would go up to 135? No, why would you be able to exert more force by just giving someone body weight air squats? That's not sending your body a signal. Yeah. Transfer of skill. That's not, that's not, you're, you're not having to exert any more force against an external object. You're not sending your body a signal to adapt, actually get stronger. What builds and maintains muscle is mechanical tension. All right. So just doing a body weight squats doesn't make any sense. It's not going to help a guy get stronger.

Let me ask this question. If I want to increase. All right. So say I'm, my goal is to improve one rep max back squat strength. Mark Rippiteau is going to give me a five by five, right? That's part of the, you know, he would give you a three by five. Okay. If it's a basic beginner novice linear progression program, he's going to have you a three by five. Okay, three by five. If it's a basic beginner, novice, linear progression program, he's gonna have you squat three times a week, three sets of five. So this is- Gradually increasing the weight.

Right, we're still making the same argument, it's just to a degree. So the argument or the metaphor, the comparison's exactly the same, it's just difference by degree. So a hundred air squats is moving however much that guy weighs 100 times versus increasing the weight and only doing it for five reps. So I'm saying if the guy weighs 150 pounds, he's doing a squat. That's 150 pounds, a hundred times. And that is going to

have some impact on his ability to move a one rep max weight for sure. Just like if I were to take an overhead squat, you're saying no. Dude, you're telling me I'm just want to make sure I understand you clearly. You're telling me if you have a guy do 150 air squats, that's going to that's going to make him a better one rep max back squatter. That's going to bring up his one rep squat. He can't do 10 unbroken air squats and his back squat is 65 pounds. Getting to the point where he could do 150 unbroken air squats for sure will have carry over to his back squat is 65 pounds, getting to the point where he could do 150 unbroken air squats for sure will have carry over to his back squat.

Bro, it would, but it would, but that would not be the most efficient way to do it. If you have a complete beginner and he can only do a one rep max back squat with 65 pounds, the best and first thing you want to do is give that guy a kettlebell or a dumbbell goblet squat and have him do sets of five to 10 goblet squats with some kind of external load, because that's gonna send his body a signal to adapt and build muscle. I don't think I would agree.

Doing bodyweight squats. Let me ask you this, Dennis. You see, I think that, I think if you did that, the guy's back squat would double. It would go to 135, and you never had to do weight. And I also think this Overall, he'll be healthier based on the definition of health that you guys gave because if you increase this guy's back Let's say let's say we took the same guy twice and you went from 60

You got this guy to go from 65 pounds to 135 pounds. He still won't be able to do 150 air squats But yes, he would he was cardiovascular if he's cardiovascular fit enough, he could easily do it. But how does he get that? Have you ever seen? Okay. Have you ever seen a guy get fucking jacked doing 150 air squats? There are a lot of gymnasts. Have you seen gym? Dude, gymnast will do single leg pistol squats. Gymnasts are not the average person, but they're sure. But you're asking for an example. No, you're doing, but this debate is about the average person. All right. If you would, literally you're going to give a guy to do a hundred, dude,

Mark Ripito lifts weights. Mark Ripito actually does. He lifts weights. He doesn't think I'm not saying he's the epitome of health, but if you're telling me you're going to give a guy 150 air squats to get his one rep max back squat bigger, I'm going to tell you, you are wrong. That is not what I'm going to give them. What I'm going to, I'm going to give somebody 150 air squats to make them fitter to build. So talking about again, the argument all goes back to general health and wellness or fitness. And CrossFit says that the fitter you are, the bigger your hedge against chronic disease, the bigger your hedge, the further you are away from death, the fitter you are.

So what is fitness? It's not to me and right, maybe this is where the disagreement lies, but for me, fitness is not just strength. If I can squat 500 pounds, but I can't run a 10 kilometer without stopping, I don't consider myself fit. If I can't get in a pool and swim 500 yards without hanging on the edge and shit in my pants, I don't consider myself fit. If I can't do 30 strict pull ups or 20 strict pull ups, and all I can do is squat again because I can look like Mark Ripito and squat a fuck ton of weight. But when I'm 60, I don't want to be able to look down

and not see my own dick. I want to be healthy. You're healthy as fuck. You're shredded. I wouldn't either. But dude, building muscle and preserving muscle, that is health. Muscle is the organ of longevity.

And you're not going to build and maintain muscle doing motherfucking air squats. Excuse me. I'm just saying, you have to lift weights. You have to exert force to get some kind of external load to send your body a signal to build or maintain your muscle. And air squats or bodyweight training is not really going to do that. Pull-ups, push-ups, yeah. But dude, an air squat is good, but if you want to get person better at squats, you need to add load. Get them

stronger. I'll even ditch the argument about the air squat. Cause I don't care about it. Well, I agree with what you're saying. You need to lift weight, but in CrossFit, we lift weight three times a week, at least at our affiliate we do. And I'm not saying it's always under load today. We have a heavy day and we do a heavy day every single week.

So I agree. I get what you guys are saying where I think the misrepresentation is, is that CrossFit is random. And maybe some people throw random shit together and call it CrossFit, but CrossFit it's not random. It's constantly varied, but it's intentionally varied. It's intentional. So let me, let me ask this. If instead of Mark Ripito's three by five program, I did it three times a week.

What if I did this instead? What if on day one, I did a front squat. The second squat day I did an overhead squat and the third squat day, I did it three times a week. What if I did this instead? What if on day one I did a front squat, the second squat day I did an overhead squat, and the third squat day I did a back squat? And I did that, and the next week, instead of an overhead squat, I did a zircher squat, and instead of a front squat, I did a sandbag squat, and instead of a back squat, I did a fucking split squat.

And I varied that, but I still had three squat days each week, would that not make me really fucking strong and put on a lot of muscle? Cause that's CrossFit. That's constantly varied. All those are functional movements and just working them at an intensity that allows me to add weight and, and as hard is doing squats three times a week. Every week, you're doing some kind of squat variation three times a week. That's your squatting three times every week. is that constantly varied and doing doing that approach you're

consistently squatting you're consistently squatting right but CrossFit consistently squats if we went and looked back at main site for the past month i would guarantee you they're squatting at least twice a week guarantee bro bro i went and looked at main site this month. They did back squats twice. All right, the past one did they do. But did they do any other squats? I did like a shitload of air squats, I think. And I was like, this is some fucking random bullshit. You know, would throw a wall ball 30 pound wall balls high as high as you can for 50 reps make you stronger.

Bro, what's gonna make you better at 30 pound wall ball doing just fucking wall balls are adding 100 pounds of your squat, what's gonna make the you better at 30 pound wall ball doing just fucking wall balls are adding a hundred pounds of your squat. What's going to make the wall ball easier? But they're doing all of them. Bro, they're an excellent argument. That is a straw man argument, dude. Getting stronger is going to make you every can make you better at everything. It makes everything in your life easier.

Hold on, hold on. Hold on. I have a question to that. If I say I got have a 300 pound back squat squat and in over the course of a year, I get to 405 pounds without a doubt, that's going to make me a better runner. That's going to make me a better, better mile runner. Bro. That's going to make you better at producing force. If you want to be a better runner, you need to train specificity. You need to start running more.

All right. But I'll tell you this. Everything easier. I can get fat and strong and so many things get hard. That's my whole argument. Okay. That's, and dude, there's validity to that argument. But let me ask you this, bro. If you take two guys, all things other being equal, who's going to win in a 400 meter run or a one mile run? A guy that's strong or a guy that's weak. Say they have the same, the same aerobic capacity. Who's going to win the stronger guy, the weak guy, all other things being equal.

You're right. The stronger guy, but they have to have an aerobic base. And where does that come from? Bro, but in order to even build an aerobic base, you have to be strong enough to move your body. All right. It's that fundamental. So here's the thing if what you're saying is true Tanner then you guys should never even be talking about CrossFit you and Mark because what you've done if I'm let me get this out what you guys are done is you're saying anytime the argument goes to you should be doing GPP you're like hey but is the stronger football player who has the strongest push off the line is better Is he better at that? So what you're saying in specific? Modalities in specific avenues of applying the muscle whether it be basketball whether it be tennis whether it be football

Whether it be wrestling only in those specific areas stronger always wins. That's what you're saying, right? dude, Mark rip ito said CrossFit is not training because you cannot constantly vary a training modality in predictably operative or predictably increase the expression of that training modality. I think the area of contention between Taylor and I is probably the definition of training versus exercise. All right. And, and dude, I have that definition if you want, I put it on my Instagram story. And if anyone wants to, if anyone wants to know the like basis of my argument, you can literally just go watch my Instagram story right now. I even put a YouTube

video out about it. I made a YouTube video about this a year ago about why CrossFit sucks. And I'm not saying CrossFit sucks. And, and this is, sorry, here's, here's Mark's definition of fitness. And you correct me if I'm wrong. Training is a process by which you increase your capacity to perform a physical parameter and CrossFit. Is that, is that right? Yeah. That's word for word, what he said in the podcast, what he said on the podcast.

I would say those are his words, Not yours, Tanner. Those were his words. That's that's totally fine. I'll tell you, because I put this on my story today, because anyone that follows me, that's not on CrossFit, that's all right. It all got it right here. I'll just tell you, I wrote the definition of my train because honestly, Taylor, I think you and I are probably saying the same thing. And the only confusing point is semantics. Okay. So here you go.

One second. And I'm not trying to interrupt you or, or, or I'm not sensitive. Most of the time. All right. Well, I try not to be sensitive. Which one is it here? I thought it here. Training is any physical activity with a specific long-term goal in mind with

purposeful workouts designed to produce that specific long-term goal. All right. So I have a question based on that definition. What if your long-term goal is to increase fitness as CrossFit defines it, work capacity across a broad range of time and modal domains. What if that's your goal? My goal is to be as fit as possible across everything. What do I do?

Bro, I'd say CrossFit is a great training, a great, a great way to train to increase broad fitness. Okay. I'll give you that. Bro, it's training on undoubtedly produces the fittest athlete. But what you and I are saying is, dude, my definition of CrossFit, all right, is just doing constantly varied functional movements as it's divine, aka main site programming. All right. Cause that comes from the horse's mouth. Now what you do because you're smart. It used to not anymore. Now it's called cat programming. Main sites, just fucking a hodgepodge of garbage. Yeah. Main

sites retarded now because they let anybody fucking write it. Yeah. Right, bro. Amen to that. And dude, listen, I understand. I'm on a CrossFit podcast right now. All right. I don't, I don't watch CrossFit. I don't listen to CrossFit. I don't care about CrossFit, but I've done CrossFit. All right. I've coached CrossFit for seven years. I've competed in CrossFit. I know what it is. I've worked in a CrossFit gym for 12 years. All right. And I think, dude, what I'm saying, and I put this in my YouTube video if anyone wants to watch it, but I just say good CrossFit, CrossFit when it's done well, it's actually structured strength and conditioning program programming with variants in the metabolic conditioning.

All right. And then you just disguise it as the word CrossFit, but the CrossFit gyms that are good CrossFit gyms, they're not doing constantly varied bullshit all the time. They're not doing main site programming. Well, they're not. They are constantly varying, but they're not doing random bullshit. I'll agree with that. I what I don't subscribe to is that just because I'm squatting three days a week, every week, and it could be on I could squat Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, one week, I could squat Thursday Thursday Saturday and Tuesday the next week I don't subscribe to the fact that just because I'm squatting every week that that isn't constantly buried

Important distinction. Did you catch that Tanner randomized versus varied? Did you catch that distinction? Because all the gyms are are varied. They're just not random. Did you? Some are some are random as fuck They're just not random. Did you catch that? Some are random as fuck. Yeah, dude, some are. And I'm just saying, that's why, and a big, one of my big issues with CrossFit is the quality of training is so diluted.

Okay? It is. And I'll be the first to tell you, there are great CrossFit gyms. Bro, I know great CrossFit gyms. I know a lot of great people in CrossFit that do it really well. And I'm just saying, but what they're really doing

is just proper programming. It's structured. There is some kind of long-term specific goal that's in mind and they give you the variance usually in the Metcon, all right? But they're not just fucking randomly programming handstand pushups one day. Now I'm gonna go do some back squats

then I'm gonna go swim 500 yards. The next day I'm gonna go run a mile then do a hundred strict handstand push-ups like Like to me that is CrossFit because it's coming from CrossFit HQ. When the average person wants to learn more about CrossFit They're gonna get on Google. They're gonna type in CrossFit. CrossFit MainSite is gonna pop up They're gonna see the workout and the workout of the day All right And if the average person just starts doing CrossFit from CrossFit main site, that is literally random exercise. I would not call

that training. I don't, I, sorry, Tanner. Um, I want to keep it back on what the argument is here about just getting stronger, whether CrossFit just makes you stronger. Let's take wrestling or jujitsu Nate, if you follow Mark Ripito's program of just getting stronger, that is going to get you injured more quickly in jiu-jitsu or wrestling. No, why would that do? Getting stronger. 100% whereas crossfit will make you better at those sports dramatically. And here's what you're- You just squat you pick the five or six things and you stay and you stay in a full range of motion sport like jujitsu that the I would argue that that that's going to get you injured quickly. Whereas if you do that you disagree with that. That's a straw man argument. The stronger you are, the more resilient your body is, the more resistant to injury you

are strength training. It's an unbalanced strength Tanner. So think about this Tanner, think about this. You are incredibly strong, but you also possess a probably a high degree of mobility and flexibility. And so if you were to go into a wrestling match and some guy torques your arm around or torques your leg around, you can handle that stress pretty well. Because not only do you strength train, but you have done CrossFit or you have done things that increase range of motion that increase flexibility, which are important to making you resistant to injury. Now take someone like Mark, he's stiff as a rock. And

as some jujitsu guy takes his leg. You're crazy. Use some other guy, use some professional football player. Use a line. I don't know, some other fat fuck that's strong as shit. You torque them in one wrong way and they're just like, they crack in half. I mean.

Dude, I would argue the difference, Bro, is the stronger someone is, the stronger their muscle and their connective tissue is, the more resilient their body is, the more resistant they are going to be tearing things. Tanner, you would jump on CrossFit so quick if you were in the martial arts. And also, let me bring up hunting. If you were to let me ask you this, if you were to go on a hunting trip, if you knew

you and I were going to go on a two week hunting trip, just with our guns and our backpacks and carry our food, how would you prepare? Would you would you pick up a straight? I'll tell you. I'll tell you exactly. Yeah, tell me. Yeah, I would tell you exactly. I'd require. Yeah. Tell me, dude, I would do it. I would just, I would get strong. I would lift the barbell. All right. And then I would just do some basic

ass cardio, like on an assault bike, a rowing machine, dude, a stair master. That's all I would do. Cause that's, that's literally what you're going to do. Okay. Not doing that constantly weird stuff. Yeah. But that is constantly married and those are functional movements you're doing. You're running, you're rowing, you're biking, doing strength. No, no, dude. Here, let me, let me reiterate this or reword this.

Another sport would be tennis by the way. Tennis would not do weightlifting. You would do CrossFit. You would do something. No, I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't. Okay. Dude, the what you what everyone needs to understand.

If you want to be better at something, you need to, you need better at that. That's this is Mark Rippett does whole argument he has a two factor model and what he says and this is a valid argument at least in my opinion. Getting stronger is going to make you better everything and then if you whatever it is you want to get better at you need to practice that dude if you want to get better at tennis go play fucking tennis right not not go do crossfit if you want to get better. Go play fucking tennis, right? Not not go do CrossFit. If you want to get better at wrestling, bro, get stronger and then go wrestle. You're going to get better at whatever it is. Do training needs to be specific depending on whatever you want to get better at. And I'll say it in the crossfit context. If you want to be better at CrossFit, you better fucking do CrossFit.

OK, but, dude, I'm just saying if you take two all things equal, but if you had two amazing crossfitters All other things being equal which one's gonna win the stronger cross fitter or the weaker cross fitter But that's but that's you can make that argument for anything else though So if I'm saying if we have a crossfit athlete and all other things are equal Who's gonna win the person who can do more legless rope climbs or the person who can't or the person who can run a mile? Faster or the person who can't or the person who can run a mile faster or the person who can't. So I can make that up. You could, but, but that's because CrossFit is constantly varied, bro.

Every year, every CrossFit competition you go to, it's going to be different. Every year, the CrossFit games, it's different. Every time you ask, different, every fight, if you have two athletes, if you have two athletes and everything else is the exactly the same, the athlete with a faster 40 yard dash is going to have a stronger squat or a stronger power clean than The athlete with the faster 40 yard dash is going to have a stronger squat or a stronger power clean than the athlete with the slower 40 yard dash. Everything else is the same body weight.

Could you repeat that please? I just want to make sure I understand you clearly. All right. So we have two athletes, they're five, 10, 185 pounds. Everything is the same about them. One can run a 40 yard dash in three, five. The other runs a 40 yard dash in five, five. Who's going to be stronger?

The guy that runs a three five because he has ability to produce force is greater. So you could make an argument that all you need to fucking do is make your 40 yard dash faster. And you don't ever need to touch a barbell. No, you you're gonna spread sprinters. Look at look at the average sprinter brothers and jacked motherfuckers. And they train, but they also waituckers. Yeah, they train but they

lot Yeah, I know Lot of transfer of skill that happens that can't produce strength and you don't just have to use a barbell Dude, I won't disagree to that but that's an inefficient way to go about it, dude If you're trying to get as strong as possible or if you're trying to get strong, I'll dude I will definitely say this. People that do CrossFit are going to get stronger. Okay. Is it the most efficient way to get stronger? Absolutely not. That's why no CrossFitter is actually respectably strong brothers. No CrossFitter going to win the Olympics. I don't think anyone's arguing

that. I think the argument is, is that, um, that, uh, being stronger will make you just better at, uh, at everything and then stronger make you just better at everything. And then being stronger literally makes you better at everything. Everything in your life makes life better at everything. But it's not just strength though. I mean, I get what you're saying. Okay, if all other things are equal, the stronger person has a better quality of life. I agree with that. There's no cost for gaining strength, Tanner.

Right. Right. But you're talking in a vacuum. person has a better quality of life. I agree with that. You're saying there's no cost for gaining strength Tanner. Right, right. Wait, wait, wait. Sorry. Hey dude, could you repeat that please Savan? I mean, I just think that there's no cost of getting stronger. You're saying in a vacuum, if you

can just, if you can maintain your speed, your agility, your balance. I mean, we've seen what happens to guys who get really strong. I saw Dave Tate deadlifting. The guy can fucking barely fucking move. And yet he was dead. Yeah.

That's a lot of gold. Right? Dude, I'll agree. Dave Tate, and this is no shade at Dave Tate or Mark Ripito. I'm not saying those guys are the... Being strong is good. Those guys are not good examples of healthy human beings. They can absolutely And I don't want to I don't want to do it too, but there's a you're saying

You're saying in a vacuum if you could keep all other things to say being stronger is always better with no reduction in Flexibility stress on other joints. I'll say this I'll say this the crossFit methodology is flawed, bro You know how there's like 10 skills in fitness, strength, agility, coordination, balance, endurance, whatever, accuracy, all that fucking bullshit. Strength is the platform that's built on all of those. Bro, there's not 10 elements of fitness. You mean they're all built on strength, the opposite of what you said. They're all built on strength.

Yes, strength is the platform for all of those, bro. What is strength? Yes. Strength is your strength is your ability to exert force on an external object. So think about that. It's the productive application of force. Okay. I've got the definition that I've that I'm familiar with is that strength is

the productive application of force, not just I would define strength as your ability to exert force on an external object. That is you have, if you have an ability to move through a greater range of motion and you're more efficient at moving against an external object, would that not make you stronger versus just solely putting on more muscle mass? So if I'm more efficient in my movement and I hit that external object at a better point, at a better placement that allows me to move it further versus a guy that's next to me that's heavier and quote unquote stronger, would I not be the stronger person because I moved the object further? Again, I think this is a, this is a, it's an issue of semantics, you know, I'm not,

I'm not saying what, what, uh, you're saying is wrong. I'm not even sure I understand what you're saying. I'm, I guess what I'm saying is not just moving a back squat by three by five, three times a week makes you stronger. There are a lot of things that can make you stronger. And if we have the average person that will get you stronger, it will get the average person stronger. I will definitely tell you that.

But it will also get the average person a whole lot faster. It'll make the average person a whole lot better at running a marathon. It'll make the average person a whole lot better at doing pull-ups, a whole lot better at doing pushups, a whole lot better at rowing, a whole lot better at dips, a whole lot better at swimming. For sure. It would be roving. And then bro, and there's validity to that for sure.

But dude, any exercise program will do that. Or you can do F45. You could do whatever it is. F45, Orange Theory, Barry's. F45 never does the backswap. But it's not just the average. Yeah, they do. You can take a world-class fighter and put them in a fucking strength training

program or put them in a CrossFit program. And the outcomes that he will get that will be applicable to his sport will be not even close to comparison from what he gets from CrossFit versus what you're right. But you could take that same fighter. You could take that same fighter and just get them stronger and then not do CrossFit and just having practice fighting more. And that guy is probably going to be a better fighter.

Well, can we go back to the beginning and let's say this, there's two people. And well, all things can't remain the same. You have two people, for example, let's say you have two Mark Ripitose. I want to use him as an example, because in that podcast, he took some fat shits on CrossFit. I got nothing against him other than that podcast, but I want to use him as an example, you have two Markippitos. Why don't we use Greg Glassman? Huh? All right, Greg Glassman is a great, great

example to we can use both of them. There's two Greg Glassman, two Mark Rippitos. They both look retarded in fat. One of them only does deadlifts and back squats for a month. The other does a CrossFit program. Constantly varied, not randomized. One does a CrossFit program. The other does a CrossFit program. Constantly varied, not randomized. One does a CrossFit program. The other does three by five back squat and deadlifts. They both looked, I want to use Marco Pateau because that's the example of most of the American population.

He's, he's overweight and he's not healthy. And the whole argument was the best thing you could do for health is strength training. I believe for the average person, strength training. For that average person. The average person is obese in America. The average person in America, right? Yeah, dude, let's consider the average person just a fat sack of shit on health. Agreed.

Okay. Okay. So how, to me, how, if that's the average person, fat sack of shit, how is only getting stronger the best thing they can do for their health, when really the best thing they need to do for their health is lose weight. Dude, but if you get stronger, you're gonna build muscle and you're gonna lose weight.

You're gonna improve your body composition and you're gonna improve your ability to continue moving your body for the rest of your life. But that's not true, look at strong men. As you go through the aging process- Strong men are all so overweight. Say again? Strong men are all, I'm not gonna make a generalization,

but if you look at the average strong man and you look at the average CrossFitter, this is anecdotal, but it's like your eyes don't lie to you. The average strong man. Bro, it looks like shit, they're not healthy. I will agree with that for sure. Okay. So I just think that again, the average person fat sack of shit needs to get healthy, generally healthier, farther away from metabolic disease. Strength training is not the most important thing. Yes, it is. How does that make you lose weight? Bro, yes, it does. What if you just lifted weights and just ate in a calorie deficit,

you'll lose weight. But that's not what people do to get stronger. You don't eat at a deficit to get stronger. Dude, if you took an average fat sack of shit person that has untrained novice and you had them lift weights and eat in a calorie deficit, they will get stronger while losing weight. I'm not sure. And how do I say, bro, I don't want to, they would absolutely, bro, the best thing you can do for anyone, anyone, any person, bro, I promise is just get them stronger. Do you know, I'll give you another example. Okay. And what, and you, and you think, you think in 12 weeks you could get someone, if we took the same two people, you could get someone stronger with weight training.

Then doing CrossFit? Then doing CrossFit. Absolutely. Yeah, you're asking me. Unequivocally. Okay, and then let me ask you this. And then we randomized the events. We pulled them out of a hopper.

We pulled them out of a hat. You would put, you would take someone and give them 12 weeks of training of weightlifting and Taylor takes someone and gives them 12 weeks of CrossFit and then we pull just random exercises out of a hat. You think that the person who did weight training will be, will somehow be more proficient or stronger and win that competition. You could pull out running or pullups or back squat or whatever Bro, if that if that if the competition and you're depending you're making that competition About those arbitrary movements that you're just making up out of your mind right now Yeah

I would say cross was gonna be better because you're gonna be training that for what's in that competition. I'm talking about life Okay, so you're saying your guy would get more pussy. What do you mean by life? What do you mean by life? Yeah, cuz life you have to run who's running who's getting away from the cops faster mark Get pussy so so you're saying that guy gets more pussy Dude, i'm saying i'll definitely say the the stronger guy is definitely get more pussy than some weak little beta pencil Yeah, but mark ripito is not getting any pussy. You can't even get his dick up But Mark Rippiteau's not getting any pussy. You can't even get his dick up. Come on, move Mark out of it.

Cluck Mark. He's here now. Excuse me, Mark. Dude, I understand you guys don't like Mark Rippiteau. I have no problem with Mark Rippiteau. I don't love him. I don't know shit about him other than that show. I'm not judging Mark at all.

I don't think you can look at a guy and be like, whatever. I don't have any issues with Mark. Oh, shut up, Devon. If you had to bet, you would say he has erectile dysfunction. He's just red. He just probably drinks too much or something. Here's what you need to say. Because honestly, I feel like we could take this debate and we could spend our times much better rather than talking badly about others, dude. Greg Glassman has made the world a better place.

He changed the world unequivocally. I think Greg Glassman and what he's did with CrossFit is probably the single greatest thing that's ever happened to the fitness industry. Mark Ripito, a guy that stands right next to Greg Glassman, you have to keep in mind, Greg Glassman and Mark Ripito like each other, they know each other. Mark Ripito used to own a CrossFit gym. He was involved with CrossFit from 2006 to 2009.

Mark Rippetoe understands what CrossFit is. The reason they went their separate ways is because they just had a fundamental difference in their philosophy. That's it. But dude, they're both incredible men. Would Mark be the millionaire? The hundred, the frickin'- Do you want to know the real reason, Tanner, why they went their separate ways?

Happy. If you're happy to tell me. I don't know. It's not my business, but you can tell me. You're on the inside. You're on the inside. So if you want to tell me, I like I've worked with Mark a handful of times. He's fucking great. He probably doesn't remember me. But I think he's fucking great. I enjoyed working with him. He's a class act. He's a gentleman. He's smart, all that stuff. But but it was it was it was a personality conflict. I mean, at it was a personality conflict.

I mean, at the end of the day, it wasn't, and that's it, and not really between him and Greg. It was more between, I would say Mark and Dave. Okay, and dude. Dave, Dave to tell the story one time, but it happened at the 2000, the first CrossFit Games, and then it just went downhill from there. And I did I'll tell you this. I don't know Dave Castro at all. Never Stephen spoken to

him. I know Mark Ripito but from what I do understand Mark Ripito is has very strong convictions as does Dave Castro and bro when you get two guys with big egos all right to alpha males and they butt heads of course they're not going to get along. And it's probably best that they're going to go their separate ways. Either way, Dave Castro, Greg Glassman, Mark Rippiteau, those guys have left indelible marks on the health and fitness industry and they've made the world a better place. And I think we can all agree on that. Let me ask you this, Tanner, do you have kids? I do not. If you had, I'm good. I plan on having kids soon. Okay. If you, I have a two seven year olds and a nine year old, would you recommend a strength training program for them or CrossFit for them?

As a seven year old? Yeah, to supplement their Jiu Jitsu, tennis and skateboarding. What would you recommend? Strength training or CrossFit? What I would do, I might wait till they're just a little bit older to start strength training and I would tell them, I would have them start strength training and then I would have them practice their sport more. I would never have, I wouldn't have my kids do CrossFit, I'll put it that way. Okay. Unless, unless, unless the kids want to be good at CrossFit, they want to go compete

in the sport of CrossFit. Okay. Depends on what my kids' interests were. Let me ask you, do you think that this is CrossFit, this is a CrossFit workout, five pushups, 10 air squats, three rope crimes for 10 rounds? You think that's a CrossFit workout? Dude, I think that's an arbitrary workout you just made up in your mind.

They could be, because we do CrossFit workout literally falls, like any workout you could constitute as a CrossFit workout like everything falls under the crossfit umbrella Right, right. If you look if you look at crossfit, I would argue the second you have kids You're gonna get them into crossfit. You'll see you're gonna get them in the crossfit You're gonna start doing and and I will know it and I'll be standing at the park with you and be like why you having Your boy run sprints there and then do monkey bars in circuit training and then you and be like, why are you having your boy, uh, run sprints there and then do monkey bars in, in, in circuit training. And then you'll be like, and that's a, that's a valid argument.

And I think people that have their kids do CrossFit. It's a great thing. Yeah. Personally, when I have kids, I'm going to let my kids do whatever they're interested in. All right. And then if they want to, if you do that. Yeah. Yeah. I, it was the way the world's going right now and how fucked up it is that you

never know what happened. I really sincerely hope I have healthy kids. My kids ain't turning into a fucking whatever they're not. That's for sure. Okay. Sorry. I cut you off Tanner with my smart ass for Mark. Go ahead. What would you do with your kids? You would let them do what I? Would let my my kids pursue whatever they're interested in alright But I will absolutely have my kids start lifting weights probably when they're eight or nine That's when I started lifting weights getting stronger because like I said getting stronger is gonna make you better at whatever you do In in conclusion I think in a vacuum, no one disagrees with you.

But I wholeheartedly disagree with you that getting stronger, if you just sit around and do a back, if you just work on getting stronger at back squat, deadlift, and bench press, and you are truly an athlete, above average athlete, let's say even just like someone who plays tennis four days a week you and you're simultaneously working to get stronger at those lifts You are you are headed for trouble. I would say I Would say you were definitely headed for trouble. I just want to make sure I understood you correctly you know you're saying if You had someone just get stronger by doing deadlifts and back squats and just playing their sport

They're gonna be headed for trouble if you're trying to get as strong as you can Doing back squat bench press and deadlift and you were a tennis player Yeah, already let's say even as let's say even a sprinter Let's say even just a sprinter and you're simultaneously trying to get your, your back squat as high as you can. I bet you that there's a hamstring injuries or some injuries that are happening at a much more. It's not even about injury. There's a margin of diminishing return. Sprinters need to be strong to a point, but if you are only focused on strength, then there's going to be a point where, well, you got stronger at the cost of being able to sprint fast.

I don't see any strong tennis players. Or marathon runners. Yeah, but I'll then you can just go back to the argument, man. All things other being equal, a stronger tennis player is going to be better than a weaker tennis player and a marathon runner and all versus. I'm not, yeah, I'm not arguing with you in that, but the argument is so right. Like you said, if everything remains equal, the stronger person is better agreed. But that's not the argument. The argument is what is the single best thing the average person can do to be healthier, to be further away from chronic disease. It's not strength train. It's eat well.

And then it's not just get your back squat heavier. It's actually lose weight, be able to run a mile, probably go for a 30 minute walk or do a pushup. You know, if I would, I would argue the hierarchy of an athlete's development, especially a female is not to squat 135. It's to be able to do a strict pull up. Who cares if they can, what they can back squat if they can't do a strict pull up or push up. I would disagree, strongly disagree. Like, so you think it's more important for you to

be able to move an external load than to be able to move your own body. Dude, being able to exert force against your external environment allows you to move your body. Does that make sense? So you have to be strong enough just to move your body. You literally have to be strong enough to go for a walk. You have to be strong enough just to move your body. You literally have to be strong enough to go for a walk. You have to be strong enough to go hiking. You understand? You can do all of that without ever touching a barbell. You can without a doubt be strong enough to move your own body without ever touching a barbell.

Dude, but again, that's not what's keeping people alive. Keeping people alive is maintaining and preserving muscle mass. And the way you're going to do that is lifting weights, not just doing fucking air squats. But that's, that's also there's, there's a show, uh, on Netflix. I think it's called blue zones. And the guy does a lot of research on basically these five areas on earth where they have the highest concentration of centenarians, people

who live past a hundred years old. And the most is between all of them. And actually none of them was a specified or a specific strength training program or even a training program. The only thing that was happening, it was happiness. I think it was like how happy that happiness was. But the common thing movement wise was just that they were all active.

They had to walk to work. They had, they were farmers, but that's not strength training. So I get what you're saying. Even stronger is better, but it's not the best thing for just being healthy. You're what you're saying is just moving your body. Just moving your body is the best thing for being healthy. And to a point I agree to that, but dude, you don't have to do CrossFit to move your body. You can literally do any exercise regimen or you just go for a

walk as long as you keep moving your body, you're going to be healthier and live longer. But right allows you to continue moving your body is being strong enough to move your body, but your muscles, they literally move your skeletal that they provide locomotion for your for your bones, but that's why preserving muscle mass preserving muscle mass is the most important thing. And those centenarians in your blue zones, they lived a long time. And I would argue that they would live longer if they were doing some form of

resistance training in addition to walking. Maybe, but the great thing about CrossFit, that this is why CrossFit is so revolutionary. It takes the concept of minimum effective dose, absolutely minimum effective dose required to make you fitter and to allow you to live longer so someone can go to the gym and in 30 minutes get a workout that is good enough over the course of five days a week and constantly varying it with intention that they're going to live a

longer time. They're going to get stronger. They're going to get faster. So it's not, I'm not saying CrossFit is the most efficient way to get stronger. I'm not saying CrossFit is the most efficient way to run a faster mile. I'm saying CrossFit is though the most efficient way to improve at all of those things while doing the least amount so that I can take a 30 minute workout and still have 12 hours in the day to sit behind a desk if that's my day job. Yeah. And I guarantee if you spoke to some guy doing F 45, he would say F 45 is more efficient

because it's the same thing. F 45 is for pussies. F 45 is still better than doing just strength training. F 45 is still better than just doing strength training. No, it's not. Yeah. 100% dude. No, it's not.

I would, dude, I guarantee people doing F 45 are just wasted. That's mindless exercise. And that is a lot of what CrossFit is also mindless exercise. But I would get bad programming, bad programming is mindless exercise. All window of between the age of 17 and 23 where you're right Tanner. But other than that no You're you're you're you're not listen. So I just I just went and watched 30 guys do do a Hero workout called scooter. They were swatting. What's the workout? Because I hate hero workouts

it's a it's a it's a 30 minute workout with Pull-ups push-ups running and then at the end you do a five you have five minutes to do a max deadlift in absolutely the worst guys at the workout were the guys who had the best deadlift and The bit and the biggest guys all the fucking big jack dudes the guys who are clearly on TRT are the guys who had the 500 pound deadlift. They were absolutely the worst at the workout. And I bet you they're the least happy. I bet you they're the worst in bed. I bet you they're the worst at getting criminals. I bet you

that they're the worst to play with their kids. I bet you they're not going to live as long. I bet you across the board, the guy with the... and those guys are the bench press back squat deadlift guys And and so if you're gonna get trapped in those There will be a point like like taylor said well there will be diminishing returns Well, they'll actually take years away from your life and it will actually make you worse at jujitsu baseball I mean, I I I hear what you're saying Jiu-jitsu baseball. I mean I I hear what you're saying God is this answer for everything anytime someone says anything you go Well, if you were a little bit stronger there, that would be better. But if you really want to get stronger everywhere

The way to do it is CrossFit. It's not just to do strength If you want to be better at CrossFit if you want to be better at any if you want to be better at anything Tanner if you want to be better at CrossFit, if you want to be better at anything, Tanner, if you want to be better at anything. What about this? What about this? It takes step two. You actually have the argument in reverse. The only thing that makes you that strength training makes you better at is being stronger in those movements. So if you want to get better at bench press, then just work at bench press. But it's not going to be applicable.

Like if we just chose push ups. Like if I told you, you had to go to prison and there were only two things you could do, you could either choose to be on a bench press program your whole life or push ups, air squats and pull ups. You would choose push ups, pull ups and air squats every day of the week. Correct? Yeah. But that would be a really shit selection. If I had, if I, if I had to choose between this, if it was push ups, air squats and pull, and then weighted back squats, I would take weighted back squats over all of those because back squat argument I can maintain and maintain muscle. Okay, I can take two soldiers. What is a

soldier do I I mean, maybe World War Two or let's go like, in modern day guys who are actually in combat or moving around like Special Forces soldiers, they need to carry a pack, they need to carry a gun, they need to be able to move really fucking fast and shoot people. So all they need the strength to do is to carry a backpack and do that. Otherwise they need to be fast and they need to have insane cardiovascular fitness. They need to be able to walk for 40 fucking miles over four days. And that's talk about something that's fundamental to being human.

Hunting before we could go to the grocery store and buy food, we needed to fucking run for marathons and wear out a bully mammoth when it couldn't fucking run anymore. So then 12 of us could fucking stab it with a spear. All we had to be strong enough to do was to carry back 100 pounds of meat. Yeah.

So my argument is I get what you're saying in a vacuum and Sevan is saying it too in a vacuum, all things created equal being stronger makes you better. But if it's just, if you're saying what is the best thing for the average person to be the as healthy as they even above average, even above average person, the best thing someone can do to be fitter or healthier is everything. Not just one thing. It's not specializing. It's being better at everything. It's having better cardio. It's being stronger. It's being able to do more pushups and more pull-ups. It's being able to swim. It's being able to walk. It's being able to bike.

Your balance. How about a baseball player? Who cares? Is there a point where you can be strong enough to be healthy? Is there a point where you can be strong enough? Is there a point where you can be strong enough to be healthy? I think the debate was about what's the best thing the average person can do to improve and maintain their general health. healthier. Dude, and I would argue it's eat in a calorie deficit because that's how you're going to lose weight the fastest. Doesn't matter what you eat in a calorie deficit. I would lift weights. I would eat protein. Bro, the answer literally, I've thought about this a lot.

If I had to give two pieces of advice for every single person, all right, it's literally get stronger and eat more protein. That's it. If I could give one piece of advice for any person listening to this podcast. All right. It is eat more protein and lift weights. It's not do fucking crossfit. It's not going to do mains by CrossFit. My advice, my advice wouldn't be that it wouldn't be eat more protein. Most people in America need to stop putting fucking shit in their mouth,

whether it's food or anything else, cigarettes, alcohol, stop fucking eating, stop eating, and do different things. I agree with that. Go get coaching, it's not just strength training. I would recommend people go to a CrossFit gym because they're going to strength train there, but they're also going to learn how to do other things, and that is CrossFit.

Dude, I'll tell you this, if that, depending on the person, all right, if it's a person probably like in their 20s to 30s, and're asking me, Hey, Tanner, what's the best thing I can do to improve my health? I would tell them is in they asked me is CrossFit a good idea? I would say first thing CrossFit is great. All right, considering where you're at in your life, it is good. But make sure you go find a CrossFit gym that actually does sensible programming that prioritizes straight recommend now, Now, now, if that average person was between 50 and 70 years old, I would say, you know what?

Crossfit's not bad, but there's probably something better you could do. I would really just focus on the strength training. Where's a 50 or a second year old gonna go to learn how to strength train? They're not gonna do that the fucking why? The trainer said the why is gonna teach you how to fucking piss in a target.

All right. And what that average should go seek out a good personal trainer that actually understands exercise or, and I'm not, I'm not trying to plug. I'm not trying to plug starting strength. They're both good. Starting strength has open franchise gyms exactly for that demographic. The guy is like 50, 50 to 60 years old. That literally can't get his dick hard has to use Viagra. The best thing that guy could go do is just go get stronger. That's gonna improve his life.

No, it's cardiovascular and respiratory endurance is going to give him more blood flow to his cock. Getting stronger is not gonna help his dick. It's 100% heart health. That's a blood flow issue and it's heart health. That is medical. Dude, I would not say that again. That's not true. It doesn't matter if you would not say it. That's not true.

That you're getting stronger is not going to help you get an erection. It's increasing your cardiovascular and respiratory endurance will help your boners. Bro, you could say that, but I'm telling you right now, you just get stronger. That's science. That's research. It's data. There's so much research behind that. Bro, so you're telling me if you have some fat piece of shit guy that's between like 15, 70 years old, you're going to tell him to go do CrossFit, which is going to be a bunch of high intensity exercise or you could tell him to go get stronger, build muscle, improve his body composition so he would actually build muscle, burn fat and have more on his body working

for him rather than against him. Bro, if you have more muscle on your body, you're going to have better improved blood flow. I agree with that, but you're making the assumption that that person is not going to lose weight or improve their body composition doing CrossFit and they are by just strength training. I agree with the Mark Rippetoe starting strength argument or whatever you just said about them having franchises for that specific demographic. That's great. But if you ask this across the board, what is better, a standardized CrossFit trainer or a standardized personal trainer at any Globo gym on the planet, the CrossFit trainer wins by leaps and fucking bounds. They have far more practical experience and training to put people in a movement to teach them how to do an exercise correctly than you

do with a personal training certificate or a degree or even a fucking exercise science degree. You don't ever learn how to squat and exercise science ever. I'll agree Brad, but a bunch of these fucking book nerds, they just get all their focus, they just get a degree in whatever exercise science or physiology those motherfuckers don't know shit about training They've never spent any real time on a gym floor. Those are first absolutely do that dude There's good personal trainers all over the world not all there's good and bad trainers all over the world Just about I can't speak for all the gyms because there's so many gyms in

Santa Cruz. But many gyms in Santa Cruz have legends classes that are absolutely amazing. My mom is 80 years old and she's in a class with 30 people every single day and I think the youngest person in there is 60. My mom's been doing CrossFit for 13 years and she had no athletic background and no, you know what I mean? And so I just want to say that in my area, there's plenty of places for fucking dinosaurs to go to CrossFit gyms and get really good training. So just want to-

And that's a good thing, bro. And I think CrossFit is the great thing, bro, because any exercise is better than no exercise. But is for that 80 year old woman is going to do a randomly programmed CrossFit class the best way to spend her time exercise? Not randomly programmed, varied. All right. Very constantly varied, random. You can get into semantics if you want. It's not random. It's like we just pull shit out of the hopper. But when you when I agree with you, if you're what you're saying is, is if you have clientele that's you know,

if you have any clientele and you want to put them through a fitness program, there should be some thought in it, you shouldn't just be dead lifting every single day. You should be doing what's best for that client. And it's individual specific. Right. Go ahead. I hear what you're saying, Tanner. But when you say crossfit

is random, you're taking something that's not random. It's fucked up by some people that are making it random. That would be like me saying that every personal trainer who has a client do a barbell back squat is a representation of Mark Ripito's starting strength. If you do back squat bench press or, or strict press five by five or three by five and you follow starting strength, it doesn't matter how fucking shitty you are teaching a squat. You could tell them the back squat with the barbell on your head.

That's doing Mark Rippetoe's starting strength. So when you say that someone's doing CrossFit and you're calling it random, well, they're not doing CrossFit. That's not CrossFit. Listen, CrossFit means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I will absolutely give you that.

But it shouldn't. But it shouldn. But yeah, but dude, the fact is CrossFit was the fastest growing fitness chain if fucking exploded. They were handing out L one certifications like goddamn lollipops, bro. And why was it the fact that when you do that, when you do that, bro training is going to become diluted. That's why you could go into 50 different CrossFit gyms, some of them are going to be good and some of them are going to be shit. All right, because the quality of training is

diluted. And why was CrossFit the fastest growing fitness chain? Bro, Greg Glassman is a really smart guy. And it was brilliant marketing, bro, cross marketing constantly just post a word out on a website. He didn't mark it. He literally just posted Before why it was so fast. Let me If you guys want to know why I was so fast go on to go watch go watch my youtube video All right about why CrossFit sucks. Okay, and I'm not and that's a clip that bro. That's a clickbait title, bro

You should watch it. All right, cuz it'll it's actually very objective. And I say, I'm glad that it is good, bro. It's good to YouTube, right? You got to fucking make titles up to get whatever people you have to do to get into click. I don't know. I watched it. Maybe I'm just defensive, but I thought you hated CrossFit after I watched that. Bro, I said in the video, I love CrossFit. And I do in the last 30 seconds, last 30 seconds, you say that,

bro, it's a it's that's that's an objective view. All right. And again, this debate is about what's the best thing the average person can do to improve the overall health. And I'm saying, and I said this, CrossFit in its purest form, also known as main site programming, is overrated. The best thing the average person can do is just get stronger. And I stand by that one, you know, another statement you and Mark both asked, Mark asked you on that show, he goes, uh, let's take, he goes, what if I take my exact programming, I'm not going to mock him, but I really want to. He asked about main site programming. Yeah.

He asked, he asked if the fittest guys on earth did main site and you both agreed that they didn't when that's not true. If you know who Scott Panchik is or rich, I know, or James. No, yeah. And no, they, what they did, those guys are smart guys. They incorporated main site workouts that they liked into their program that they thought that they would be seeing in the CrossFit games ahead. Those guys are smart because they're, they see CrossFit is giving them hints on what

they're going to be tested on. All right. They didn't follow. But they're doing main site and Jeff Adler's coach specifically, the most recent fitness man on earth. She said he does 80% of main site workouts. That's not 80% of his training, but eight out of 10 main site workouts. He does, bro.

I would say probably leading up to the games. That's what he does. Because that's what's gonna be tested on. But I guarantee that's what they said. Jeffrey Adler, he had did not become the fittest man in the world because he was following 100% main site. But I looked at the fucking main site workout the other day. That's HWPO. It's HWPO. You can't even call it main. We can't work. Main site doesn't exist.

Let's talk about CAP. They can't even call it main. We can't, we're main site. It doesn't exist. Let's talk about cap. Let's talk about that. They have another program and it's called cap Tanner. The main site, you win the main site. We can't defend main site. It doesn't work. I don't know what the main site is anymore.

It doesn't exist. I'm called capped. It's for the affiliates. So let's refer that because we can't win that one. You fucking will win every time we don't, we, we don't understand what's going on on main site either. All right. Well, and then just to be clear, because that piece of content that I put that pissed off all these cross

fitters, all right, I love crossfitters, by the way. All right. I know you guys probably don't like me, but that's fine. I like everyone. You do. I'm just saying I said CrossFit in its purest form. And I was referring specifically to main site programming for I'm not I'm not disparaging CrossFit. There's like I said, I love CrossFit and there's great CrossFit gyms. I train every day in a CrossFit gym and I fucking love it. And I'm around, you know, using CrossFit. I specifically spoke to CrossFit coaches at at my gym and I let them know, hey, I'm going to go on this

podcast and I'm going to give my feelings about CrossFit, but it has absolutely no reflection on how I feel about the CrossFit gym that I attend or all of the amazing CrossFit gyms that are around the world. Bro, CrossFit changed my life. I wouldn't be where I am without CrossFit. I fully recognize that. Okay. I'm just saying for the average person, the best thing they could do is not going to be CrossFit. It's just going to get stronger. CrossFit is great for a lot of things, but dude, just, if you just want to be better at life and living longer, it's, it's, you got to do whatever you got to do to maintain muscle. All right. And that's just maintain muscle doing CrossFit. 100%. Let me read some comments.

You can, you can read the comments. you can. Let me read some comments. Black Sean Young, Tanner, you will maintain muscle with CrossFit. Anthony, donations for Tanner's drop-in fee at CrossFit Charlotte. Caroline M., how would you program for an obese, unconditioned woman to get fitter in one year? Go ahead, Tanner. For sure. Wait, I'm talking about an obese woman one year?

Unconditioned to get fitter in one year. Yeah. What program would you put her on? Easy. I put her on three days a week, total body strength workouts. I'd, I would have her do this exactly this. I would give her Monday back squat, pushup, rearing row, and then I'd give her 10 to 15 minute cardio session, whether that's be a salt bike, walking, rowing, whatever.

Wednesday I'd give her deadlift overheads, probably another variation of a ring row or some kind of assisted chin up. Friday, I would give her some kind of horizontal pushing exercise, whether that be a pushup to a box or a bench press, I'd give her some kind of rowing variation and then I would give her a single leg exercise like a squat or like a lunge or a step up.

That way you're covering all your bases Bro, that's actually basic strength training because that's what I would give her every week I would give her I would give her that training split Monday, Wednesday, Friday for every week And then I would spend 40 minutes of the session. All right, give me your strength work And then I'd spend 20 minutes giving her some simple Conditioning to get her to move her body. All right, if you want to, if you want to grow, but it's not constantly varied. I'm doing it every fucking week. But you're doing that. You're doing a different routine. You're going to do the same exact routine every week. Absolutely. Because that's a matter of two weeks. No, you bro.

If you were getting results and you saw yourself getting stronger week to week or not, that's by the way, that's why CrossFit grows so fast. It's the results there was fucking not the marketing. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no All they did was they post 50 words on a website. Yeah, I'll tell you this bro. I'll tell you this crossfit All right, the concept of crossfit constantly varied that appeals to most people But you have to remember most people are ignorant if they're doing something different every day in the gym and they're getting tired and sweaty They got about oh shit. This has got to be good. Oh, it makes me sore. I must be getting better

Okay, but dude, that's literally just random exercise. That's why f 45 blow up. That's why orange theory blow up. That's why Barry's bootcamp blow up. They all copy CrossFit of doing just kind of their own little rendition of cross. You know what, if I took 30 members, if I took 30 members of an orange theory, and I went to a boutique strong man power lifting gym, and I took 30 members from there, I would without a doubt just the eye test and this is anecdotal say, wow, those orange theory members look way

fucking fitter than any of the strong men or powerlifters or strength training athletes. That's without a doubt. And I've been to plenty of both gyms. You're literally pigeonholing yourself. I'm not saying that people should not do cardio. I'm saying the single greatest thing they can do strong is to give is to be strong because being strong is going to allow them to do cardio. Does that make sense? But if the single greatest thing for someone to do is to be strong, wouldn't then the power lifter and the strength training athlete look like the single greatest athlete,

bro, you gotta remember power lifters are training for their sport. Their sport is specific training to be strong is moving as much. Oh, then maybe they're a horrible example. Maybe they're a horrible example. Maybe they're not. I'm not saying powerlifters powerlifters are horrible examples of healthy people, but you have to remember what they're training for. They're training to be strong and do weight moves weight.

The heavier you are, the heavier you can lift. All right. I'm not sure if you wanted to get stronger right now. I was just about to bring Hiller up. Just gain weight. Andrew Hiller, people who do yoga, I would say generally live longer and healthier lives and those who exclusively lift weights. This by itself would destroy Tanner's argument. Tanner, do you know who Hiller is? What did he say? He said, people who do yoga, I would say generally live longer and healthier lives than those who exclusively lift weights. This by itself would destroy Hillary. I would say Andrew Hiller is absolutely incorrect, bro. I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I'm not saying know Andrew Hiller, the only thing I know about Andrew Hiller is that he has a YouTube channel. Cause it popped up on my algorithm one time and he was literally just a talking head

talking shit about Danny Spiegel squats. And I immediately clicked on his channel and it said the fittest YouTube in the world. And I saw what, and then I'd never clicked on it again, because I was like, this guy just sits around talking shit about people's ability to work out. I think we did get 47 in the open one year. Good for him, bro. But he's also a drug user. He, that guy uses drugs. That's not, not when he did, not when he was 47th in the open or 42nd, maybe it was 42nd, 47th, 42nd, bro. He was, he was Natty. Here's a question. Did Andrew Hiller ever win any big time CrossFit competition?

Brother open is good for him. I'm sure he's very fit. Has he, has he won in 2014? I would call Dubai 2016 and on a big CrossFit competition. I would say in 2014 it was big only because they have oil money, but the athletes in the field didn't make it big. Bro 2013, Annie Thor's daughter did, did the Dubai crossfit championship. She won it not in 2014, but that's just giving one example.

So for that's like, okay, rich Froning goes and does a local comp. Then for the 10 years after I'm not trying to, I'm not trying. I don't need to defend myself about being a crossfit good crossfitter. Okay. I'll just say this. You can go ask CrossFit games athletes that have beaten in a competition if I was elite. All right. Go ask them.

Go ask Jamie Simmons. Go ask Elliot Simmons. Go ask Phil Hesketh. Go ask Miko Aronpa. Go ask Garrett Fisher. Go ask who else did I... Those guys were all there. Oh, they're all...

Yeah. All those guys were there, bro. I understand a lot of people on this podcast They don't know who I am, but I don't know anyone in CrossFit either. All right. I don't know any of you guys Tanner's Tanner's just what everyone is already aware of you need certain amount of strength to compete in CrossFit You need a certain amount of strength just to live your life man, that's what I'm really trying to say All right. That's that's really what I'm trying to say. I'm just, I am confused though. I'm really confused by if a certain amount of strength to live my life means moving my body. So therefore to move my body, like say getting out of a

chair. Well, that's literally just an air squat. So if I want to be better at getting out of a chair, I just do a hundred air squats and want to be better at getting out of a chair, I just do a hundred air squats and I'm way better at getting out of a chair. If I just want to be able to walk down the aisle, well, I just go walk for 30 minutes a day, but I don't have to move a single external load to be able to live my life better as a person just trying to move my own body.

Agreed on that. But dude, again, as you go through the aging process, people are going to lose muscle, man. sarcopenia. That is why people die because they lose the ability to walk down the aisle to get out of a chair. And what I'm saying, the best way to preserve your muscle is to lift weights, build and maintain strength that getting stronger is going to allow you to keep walking down the aisle. It's going to allow you to keep getting out of the chair. That's what I'm saying. All right. And dude, that's why that's why you do that. And I say this respectfully, man, as respectfully as I can. I love

CrossFit. I've done lots of CrossFit. I've coached thousands of CrossFit classes. And the only reason I stopped coaching CrossFit is because I became disenchanted with CrossFit. I realized I wasn't doing the best I could to actually help people. All right. Me giving people constantly varied functional movements is not what's best for them. It's actually just getting them stronger. And then after I get them stronger, I can give them some variants. I can give them some CrossFit workouts. And bro, I still train people like that. But couldn't you get people stronger using variants? I get the argument. Go ahead.

No, go ahead. And more engaged. So for example, when you're talking about, you know, squatting three times a week, well, I'm going to make them squat three times a week, but it's going to be completely different each time and that would still get them stronger, but now not only are they engaged way more in their training, they're having fun, but because they're more engaged and because they're having fun, they bring a whole lot more effort, a whole lot more intensity and they're committed for longer.

Dude, a hundred percent, bro. I will agree with you on that. Absolutely. But, and I'll say this because this is easily solves this argument. The best training program for any person to do is the one that they enjoy and will stick to longterm. All right. That's it. And for a lot of people, especially a lot of people listening to this podcast, that probably will be CrossFit. OK. But my only my only argument to

that is if you want to get the most value for your training investment, OK, the best return on your training investment and how you spend your time in the gym, that is not doing constantly varied functional movements. It's literally just getting stronger and maintaining muscle. And CrossFit does do that. It does. And I will definitely concede that. But what I'm saying is that doing CrossFit is not the most efficient way to do that. And dude, I just want to give my clients what's best for them. And I feel like if people don't do that, they're actually doing a disservice to their client. I feel like a lot of CrossFit gyms help a lot of people, but dude, there's a lot of CrossFit gyms

that I feel like they're doing a disservice to their clients. They're not truly helping them, or they can at least certainly do a better job helping them. That's what I believe, bro. And I believe that very strongly, very strongly. That's why I'm willing to come on this podcast and get crucified by a bunch of devout CrossFitters. Tanner's making great arguments for CrossFit, great debate.

Yeah, dude, like CrossFit, bro, it changed the world unquestionably, all right? Do I think it's the best program for people long-term? I would argue that it's probably not, but I think CrossFit's a time and place where you are in your life at that point. And then, you know, once you get tired of not seeing results, okay,

and not getting any noticeably measure, then dude, I would just start training. I would pick out a few goals and I would start training towards those specific goals. You do doing CrossFit, bro. That's hard to measure, man. It's really hard to measure. It's hard to quantify.

Right. That's really what I'm saying. It's not, it's not hard to measure and are to quantify because every workout has a specific measurable and quantifiable aspect to it. It's a time it's a weight you used. It's a number of reps you completed in a set time domain. That's all it's as measurable as a back squat. Uh, each, each individual workout is quantifiable, but dude,

quantifiable long-term bro. There's people that do CrossFit workouts. They do that workout one time in their life and they'll never do it again. That's not, that's not quantifiable. Why is that a bad thing? I'm not, it's not a bad thing. Any exercise is good. I'm a fan of exercise. Okay. And I'm not saying crossfit. I hate exercise.

Guys, dude, I would love to have both you back on again. The next guest is here. Tanner, I hope that by no way I don't I don't see anyone slamming you in the comments I just scrolled through them pretty fast. Obviously, there's a lot of devote crossfitters here. I didn't see any name-calling I think everyone I'd note for a fact Taylor wouldn't come on here if he didn't respect you and your accolades and what you've done and Doesn't know their shit. I don't think anyone also questions that, you know your shit. No one's like fuck this guy's dumb

he smoked too much weed. Like, like, the only reason why you're on here is because you're pushing with some really valid arguments and we all realize the importance of strength. So I hope by no means did you feel a sub on his line. I'm not lying. And I just want to say this, bro. I want everyone in the CrossFit community to know I love CrossFit All right, I do. All right

I've competed in CrossFit and hopefully I'll be able to compete again CrossFit if I can never manage to get healthy All right, and Taylor. I know bro. I've watched you work out. I watched a couple your YouTube videos, bro You're a fucking good CrossFitter and I hope you make the CrossFit games. All right, cuz I know that's not I've been in your shoes, bro. And again, bro, I just I'll say this. You guys do CrossFit you love CrossFit and your livelihood depends on CrossFit. So you have to you have to love it, man. I get it. I'm on the fence, bro. I got one I got one on one side, I'm still on a CrossFit gym. Or another side, bro, I realized the fitness

industry is much, much bigger than CrossFit, bro. Like CrossFit's a small segment of the fitness industry, all right, bro? And like, I've just transcended CrossFit and I've chosen to help as many people as I can. That's the only reason why I built a social media following. Okay, it's because I wanna reach and help and impact people to be healthy.

And I believe that about you, bro. And tell you what you're doing, bro, it's a good thing. You're doing social media, media bro and keep pushing that. Hey, I would love to continue this by the way too. Tanner you're always welcome on the show. Love you. Enjoyed the first conversation we had together. You're always welcome. Taylor you da man. Fucking you know I love you to death. Kill Taylor next Saturday 8 a.m. Try to beat Taylor self. I'll talk to you guys, both you soon. Tanner thank you. Taylor thank you. Thank you. Thank you. See you guys. you soon. Tanner, thank you. Taylor, thank you. Thank you, Taylor. Thank you. See you guys.

Dr. Sean Rocket in the house. Thanks guys for chiming in. What a great show. Tanner was great. Tanner's always welcome back. Taylor was great. Boy, those two really engaged you. That was really awesome. Is being strong important, Mr. Rocket? Would you like to weigh in as being strong important? the the the the the the

the the the the the sitting around waiting for CrossFit to be invented and then when it was invented he stepped into the room or it got invented around him. He's been a staple to CrossFit Games as the chief neurosurgeon. No, not neurosurgeon. Chief orthopedic surgeon. Yes, thank you. Orthopedic surgeon. And great to have you on the show. I know you've been doing some show. You've been on the show before and you've done some shows with Matt Sousa and now you

Have a new book out that's at Rogue Anyone can download this rogue fitness go over there download the book. Tell us about the book by the way I'm he's gonna put all doctor you won't you don't need a doctor after you read this book is what I hear You don't need a doctor after you read this book, is what I hear. Out of business. So it's sort of a compilation of my career and things that I see frequently. So it's not every little thing in there, but we go through everything, shoulders, knees, hips, and it's called where does it hurt? It is based in the beginning it shows pictures of you know

If you have instead of reading a chapter in a book that's called shoulder pain, and you have no idea what you have It actually points you know if you have pain here that could be a biceps That could be a slap tear and go to the chapter and read that. There's also a lot of videos testimonials from patients who had these issues and what they experienced. So if somebody had a rotator cuff tear there there's a video of them telling you what it felt like what the surgery recovery was like excuse me and and what they experience before the surgery after the surgery what they're doing after the surgery how they're feeling It's got a lot of anatomy pictures. It's got surgical videos. It's we're calling it a virtual experience Hey, which is huge right because every single person no one ever thinks

Hey, what happens if my Achilles snaps and the second it snaps while they're hobbling to the car They're already googling right what surgeries do I need they're looking for testimonials on reddit on how they were healed What the repair was like did they ever come back as strong as they were before right? I mean everyone Through Google fighting through Google stuff. You know you don't know what's a credible source. What's you know a fighting through Google is tough. You don't know what's a credible source, what's a medical source. And this is a medical source. You can't make a diagnosis with it.

I can't tell you this is what you have. But it is definitely driven towards sort of everyday athletes. It is for the layperson, really. It's not a medically intense book. It's not a medically intense book. It's not a lot of, it's what I've experienced, what patients have experienced. And it's sort of more for the everyday person who has a pain

and trying to figure out, do they go see somebody? What could it possibly be? And I have this 321 GoMD website and we incorporated some of those articles and Karin Thompson and Jay Souza and Lauren Folkerson and Matt Souza have all been awesome and helped out tremendously. So I appreciate all their work with that.

Dr. Rocket, can you give me, what are the body parts that are covered in it? Shoulders, hamstring? shoulders knees hips ankles Achilles calves What else elbows what about plantar fasciitis is that covered in it? I know fasciitis is in there. Yep. So so if if I had a

Let's say I did which I do have a pain in the bottom of my foot, I could go there and there's, oh okay, all about foot fractures and sprains. Yeah, this is the 321 GoMD website right here. Okay, and so then I dig in there and I know you probably can't say this, but I can sort of, god I feel so bad saying this, but I can sort of self-diagnose. Well I can't say that, but it can give you what the possibilities are and you know if you need to see somebody or you know if it's a mild ache or soreness treating things you know conservatively and you know if there's a ripped tear pop it shows pictures of what those ripped tear pops look like and You know when you need to if you have a dislocated shoulder, what what does that mean? What is a label? What is a slap tear?

What's a label tear? all these things and In through there does it also give you ways? I don't want to call them home remedies Does it also give you ways? I don't want to call them home remedies But things that maybe you should avoid or things that maybe you should do whether it be Some sort of like movement like this or I sit or eat it You have arthritis

Stuff to do things to do things to look for. Yeah so would you say it's a diagnostic and maintenance Book or you can't say that either, even though it might be? I wouldn't say diagnose. You check it up.

Just go check it. Okay. Okay. Obviously, my medical disclaimer is I can't make a diagnosis over the internet. I can't say in the book, this is what you have. Like that's, that would be bad for me to do that. So that's why I can't say that. Let me ask you this.

If someone comes into their office and they say, hey, my shoulder hurts, you obviously, with all your experience, have a flow chart in your brain of questions you ask, right? And then when they do that, then you can be like, okay, can you make a fist or can you do this or can you do this? You put them through some sort of range of motion thing that narrows it down before you actually look inside, right? Oh, absolutely. So so it comes somebody comes with shoulder pain, and there's a list of possibilities that's going through my head. I list a question that they answer in the sheet, and I'll read that question before I even go in the room. And then I'll talk to them.

And so now the list is starting to narrow. And then I examine them, and I'm starting to really narrow. And then even when I have a good history, a good exam, there's still some possibilities of what could be. And then we're getting into studies like an X-ray or Possibly an MRI and that kind of really focuses down And then even some MRIs are not as accurate when you go in and actually with a scope with a camera Everybody thinks the MRI shows everything but sometimes it doesn't and does does the book

Share some of these tools with the reader? Yeah, what the symptoms are, the patient videos, the patient testimonials, somebody with a slap tear will say, like, this is what I had, this is what it felt like. You click on that video and you hear somebody talk about a slap tear and the biceps tear or rotator cuff tear. What did they feel?

What were they experiencing? Yeah, so I liked it because it was my patients who I know and I treated and I got through successful surgeries with and they are returning and they were more than happy to share like what they were experiencing, what was going on with them. How long have you been practicing medicine?

Oh, 1993. Holy cow. Okay. So over got some grades going on. That is that's 30 years? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Someone has been practicing medicine for 30 years. Hey and in, this book here, could you pull it one more time, Susa? This book here is specific to the most common things you've seen in CrossFit also? Yeah, I would say, you know, I'm a CrossFit doctor that I've seen a lot of things with CrossFit. A lot of this is for the servicemen and women out there too, any workers and employees or laborers too.

I do a lot of workers comp too. So things like that. Yeah, people lifting up a heavy can or a heavy body and tearing a biceps like this is relative to them too. A weight, a barbell a garbage bag a Another, you know service person. Yeah um There's 365 days in a year

Does a day go by without you diagnosing something? Even on vacation I get texts. I mean, and I know that because I've bugged you now that I have three words. I've bugged you a dozen times with pictures and oh I just thought this happened to someone's elbow or knee. So you, it really is like that for you, right? For 365 days a year, when you pick up your phone, oh, look, someone has sent me this, or you have a story or a picture of something someone has sent you.

And would you say that those are all CrossFitters? No, no, no, no, not all CrossFitters, no. One CrossFitter a day minimum you get a question from you think? I mean, I have multiple CrossFitters coming into the office most of them, you know with not with a Rip-tear pop but most of them with a tendonitis or an overuse from doing too much um, oh, yeah, my office is not filled with CrossFitters, but um Not your office

Per se but all the avenues of communication. I guess what I'm getting at is there's probably not a physician in the world who is dealt with more CrossFitters than you. I don't know. Who knows? I, I, all I know, I do have the games athletes. The games athletes will reach out to me and just ask advice and questions and again, can't give medical advice but can help them navigate in their journey.

But I do talk to the games athletes and to reporters and media people like yourself. But it's, you know, I started off, you know, trying to build a practice and, you know, I've gotten a big practice now and, you know, it's, you never know when the practice is gonna, you know, I just, I always had this feeling when I was young that like, I'm just gonna do everything I can to make it successful And it's gotten successful and now we're just sort of

Had hired more people and got more surgeons with us and uh, I just you know, I I enjoy doing it I like helping people I like having an expertise like this having a focus to be able to help people It's it's it's a nice feeling when when you can when you can help somebody in need whose kid has an issue or they have an issue and they're worried, they're nervous, they're scared, they don't know where to go, who to turn to. It's a nice feeling when you can help them navigate. navigate. And I also think the important thing is like we've been talking about self diagnosis, but for coaches out there, this is the way that your members are going to come up to you. They're going to say, it hurts here when I do X. And if you're familiar with the book in the line of thinking and the possible

things that it could be, you could better guide them to movements that maybe they should avoid for a little period of time. You could maybe guide them towards, um, some supplementary exercises that would help kind of bring that back in alignment or help them, you know, make that pain go away a little bit. So I think, uh, before, like I just said, we were just talking about self diagnosis, but as a coach, I think this will arm you just with a whole entire playbook on how to best serve the people that are in front of you.

Um, uh, Sean, what's really interesting about you in the position you're in, and I hold you in the highest regard, is there are Toyota mechanics, and there are Nissan mechanics. Is Nissan still around? And there's Ferrari mechanics, and there's all these different mechanics for all their different cars. And you have, through where you've put yourself in life, you're the ultimate mechanic. It's like you've put yourself on this, you've whether you put yourself there,

well, the community has put you there to, because you have the most anecdotal and practical experience with all of these bodies going through all of these bodies going through all of these movements. And I truly would question anyone who has more experience or who's seen more x-rays or more MRIs or who's talked to more patients or who has seen, you know, like, if, I mean, if I was a CrossFitter, if I was a coach or if I was an elite CrossFitter or if I started having issues, that book is where I would go

Like first thing and so I can't thank you enough for putting that out. That's cool Is there any other book like that? Or did you guys just come up with this idea? It's kind of like a choose your own adventure for your body Remember those books when we were kids We'd like to choose the path And it's cool that you Okay, and it's cool that you um Just think I would

Go go ahead you have links and testimonials and like you can get different facets so Yeah, you know I I was just thinking like wouldn't it wouldn't be nice to have somebody because people people are worried nervous about a Rotator cuff say and they're like, how do I know I can get back to CrossFit? And I'm like, well, why not just have somebody tell them that they can get back to CrossFit, like somebody who has gone through it? And yeah, we started having all these videos with Karn and Matt and Jay. And I feel like these would be, it was sort of like,

we had a little session where we started thinking like, wow, we can make this a virtual experience, like people jumping around to anatomy, to surgery, to testimonials. And it was sort of this, and that was the great part of making it an ebook. And we thought about a print book, and I liked the ebook idea.

Number one, it's green, you don't have to print the pages, you save the environment. But to take advantage of all this, the media that we have, the videos, my YouTube channel, Sean Rocket MD YouTube channel with a ton of videos from CrossFit Games athletes asking me questions, a lot of home exercises, home stretches, recoveries from surgery. What are some things that I tell my patients after certain surgeries? Yeah. E-book ordered. Smart. Best 25 bucks you'll spend today. And Dr. Rodgers? Katie was great too. Katie Hennigert with Rogue was was awesome to work with. Tell me how great Katie is.

It was just so simple. Like somebody who's the idea of my heart. Tell me how great Katie is. She just, she was like, she goes, it was just so, it was just so simple. Like somebody who's the head of this company, right? You know, I said, I got this idea. She goes, I love it. I'm gonna put you in touch with this guy. Sends me an email. That guy says, where's the book? Show it to me.

Sell it to him. Two days later, love it. Let's put it up. It was like, it was like what? Now you know why there are a million dollars. What did you ask for? Hey, what now you know why they're Hey, um, uh, what about, um, uh, what about a hard copy that has QR codes? I saw a book like that one time too, where it had

QR code. So people could order a hard copy and then just sit on their couch with it. And then if you want to see the video, you click on the QR code. That might be an idea. Second edition. Yeah, and I'm guessing what also, what I'm also guessing what's so fun about this book is that there's always more information coming in, right? More testimonials, more injuries, more tweaks, more repairs, more knowledge on remedies for any ailment.

You could literally just keep building it. Yeah, keep growing this. Yeah, that's a great. That's a great idea Did you did you ever see me? I'll give you time to spend. Thank you Did you ever think you would be an author of a book? Ah No, no, I But it came to me like it didn't come to me It was just sort of like I said as you said like I have all this Experience and anecdotal evidence and Interactions with games athletes and why not?

harness that and let people know about what are the possibilities. Like there are stuff we see in CrossFit that we don't see other places. I've seen a Terry's major tendonitis from handstand walking. And probably in gymnastics, they'll see it. But people coming in with like tenderness of stress fracture of their scapula from handstand walking, like stuff you don't usually see in other sports

first rib fracture from a from a barbell coming down heavy heavily onto the Clavicles, you know first rib fracture. That's not Well seen in a lot of other sports. There's Chuckie when you When you you so you'll go to the games this year and you'll be there. And is there anything that you like, is there anything that's happened at every single games that you know?

Like, is there always a pulled hamstring or always a dehydration or anything that you just always see? Yeah, I mean, it's like any competition. There's always going to be a sprained ankle. There's always going to be, you know, a ham, maybe a hamstring, maybe a quad strain, stuff like that. But, you know, there are have been some games that are more memorable

than others with, you know, Brooke's injury and then Emily's, you know, issue with her arm, Roman's issue with his foot, you know, those are things that they have put out there themselves, so they're well described, so no HIPAA violation, but you know, those were memorable events, especially because they were, you know, athletes who were well known and Roman, you know, was winning the games and, you know, that was are, who are well known and, and Roman, you know, was winning the

games and, uh, you know, that was a tough situation. Yeah. The Roman thing was quite unique, right? Because, um, uh, Brooks and Emily's are very clear, right? They just need medical attention right away. Um, and Romans is we had a hobbled athlete who was winning. You have the pressure from the crowd wants him to go on. You have the pressure from him that he wants to go on.

And then you obviously are trying to give an objective evaluation like, hey dude, you got this. I even remember there was weird shit going on. Like he didn't even wanna take off his shoe, right? He didn't wanna like let it swell up. So, and I don't know if you can talk about this, but I was back there and I think that maybe it was even hard for anyone to examine the damage because he didn't even want to take the shoe off. So,

so there are some challenges, right? Yeah, that was a challenge. Again, like, you know, I think I would talk to Matt about this and Matt's podcast, you know, there's my goal is number one, help the athlete. And if that means helping them compete, that's what I'm there for, help them to stay in the game. Like we are there to help them stay in the game. But on the other side, I've got to make sure that they're not going to hurt themselves and do anything catastrophic or do anything that they're not going to hurt themselves and do anything catastrophic or do anything that they're really going to regret. Right.

Like what? Like a permanent injury, something that makes, you don't want them to make a decision where they can't come back and fight another day. Right. Like I said, I know that any games athlete is not going to stop unless the bone is sticking through the skin, right? We know that. And my goal is to make sure that they're safe. And, you know, and it's always, what's the next workout? Like, the next workout is just, you know, like that sled pull, he had a seated sled pull, and he had the parallel bar walking with his hands. And I was like, that's great. And then I heard double unders, I was like, that's not great. I said, let's try to do it without putting weight on it.

Can we do this? Can you do this without putting? I said, I'm okay letting you do this without putting weight on it. I don't think you're going to do more damage. That's our goal is to make sure they're not changing their decision based on the games. Like we have to, I have to step back and say, are they gonna do more damage to their body

that could potentially do catastrophic or need surgery when they didn't need surgery? Like we're protecting them from getting a surgery. And I'll tell the games athletes, I'll tell them, my goal is to see you next year. If I let you go right now, I probably won't see you next year. Like you'll go and you're not going to do well, but I might not see you next year because you're going to be out.

Like, so, so it's really, you know, thinking about their future when they can't think about their future, cause they're so, you know, tunnel vision about the games, um, any advice, um, single piece of advice you would give an athlete who is coming to the games this year, who is going to be the individual athletes who are going to do 13 events and or 14 events, whatever they end up doing and from Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, they're going to push their bodies, anything that they should be doing Ahead of time to prep for that

Besides being the best shape of their life like you take two vitamin C. Do you take an aspirin? Do you drink electrolytes like is there anything like you'd be like? Hey, these are the five things you should prepare for Yeah, I mean it's Number one is don't overdo it right now. Don't hurt yourself right now. The, you know, the, the hay is in the barn, right? It pretty much, what do we have? How many days away are we now? We're none. Yeah.

10 very few. What's that? So arrive healthy and rested. Yeah. Yeah. Healthy and rested. The biggest yeah, healthy and rested. The biggest thing I've seen is people overdoing it coming to the games. They sometimes come in overdone and hurt and hobbling and that's no way to enter a games.

You know, it's so right now is definitely rest, hydrate, you know, make sure you're fully hydrated, make sure your sleep is more than it should be. Like, you know, get some light workouts in, get your flexibility in. But right now it's, you know, even for the past week or so, I would say, hopefully they're not overdoing it. Hey, can you pre-hydrate?

I've heard people say that you can do that. Like, you know, you just start drinking just shit loads of water and pre-hydrate. But logically- Yeah, I mean, the issue is you don do that like, you know, just start drinking just shitloads of water and prehydrate but Logically, I mean the issue is you don't want to overdo it on water You know, you don't want to over over drink you can get into hyponatremia and stuff like that But but yeah, just making sure you're not you're not doing workouts right now They're depleting your your electrolytes your potassium your sodium sort of, sort of getting good diet, getting good sleep, getting good rest, getting good hydration,

sort of coasting into the games, I would say, coasting into the games, because next week is gonna be probably nothing like you've ever seen before, so. Well said. And when you're at the games, do the athletes all have access to you So let's say after event four I feel something in my calf

Can I just walk up do those athletes have access to you to walk up to you and be like dr? Rocket I got something weirds going on with my calf Yeah, no, that's why we're there. Yeah, so just access for the athletes All right, awesome For the even for the athletes. All right, awesome. Yeah, full access, even for the workers too. There's been a lot of workers, the volunteers were there for the volunteers, were there for the rogue people.

For you, for media, that some media people take some tumbles. At filming people, they step into a pothole, they're walking backwards, they're on a bike,'re you know who knows where they are flying on a drone you know uh you have a new book out it's at rogue um i i look forward to uh future uh additions of it i know it's going to be hugely popular i think suzan nailed it when he said that every single uh gym uh should have the book. Where does it hurt? Sean Rock had been around forever. Complete endorsement from myself as

being the number one doctor in the CrossFit space. I appreciate you coming on, dude. Thanks for everything you do and I look forward to seeing you next week. Thank you for having me. Thanks for having me. All right, brother. Are you going go just see another patient now right off to work? I'm in the middle of my office day. This is my cheerleading day. Like don't worry. You'll be okay. Everything's gonna be fine. And it goes away. It'll be good. Don't worry. All right, dude. See you in a few days. All right, buddy. See you. Thank you. Where does it hurt? purchase it at rogue?

The ebook where does it hurt Sean rocket MD dudes been around forever seen it all crazy competent I cannot I've lost count of how many times I've called dr. Rocket or text Dr. Rocket Tanner did great. Yeah, I enjoyed Tanner. I Didn't I didn't I didn't feel like... Yeah, I thought he did great. I didn't feel like he had to keep saying that CrossFit is great or he loved CrossFit. But I understand maybe he felt like he needed to keep saying that because he was in the home of the greatest podcast YouTube extension blah blah blah blah in the in the crossfit space. Yeah, I mean he definitely stepped on the

the other team's turf, right? Yeah, like he came into our house and was like willing to take the debate and at the same time, too I just don't think he wants to be misunderstood in the fact of like even though he has different opinions about it He's still just not outright shitting on CrossFit So I think he just kept reiterating that. Although the debate got a little much. The waters got pretty muddied. Yeah.

I remember when super chats meant something. Well, um, we're going to go through all of them now, Trish. So don't you worry. Uh, I tried to go through them, but, but there was no time to read them all. Uh, can he refill my Quaalude, uh, RX? Oh, quiet. I'm so good at that. Just stop.

Don't I, uh, I fuck fuck you fine. I don't care I should uh idea we're we're crunch for time Just because we're everything's getting impacted Because of the games and so i'm just forcing shows in now Which i'm okay with uh, but it is it is what it is. If I if I had that book, I may not have had to get circumcised. Good point. Although I don't think Dr. Rockets fully enlightened yet he probably doesn't understand the ramifications of circumcision. Buried himself at the end, doing it for the money. Yeah. there I mean there's just some things that

I don't think a lot of people understand You have to remember when Greg was giving away CrossFit for free. It was so unheard of to give anything away for free and That was the whole premise for fucking 10 years straight everything for free as fast as we can And Greg didn't believe in marketing because he felt like everything that we gave should give value. It wasn't like, you know, you see a Coke commercial and it's cool. It might entertain you watching the dancing polar bears, but it's not giving away. Yeah.

And it was funny because I would actually argue that everything you guys did was marketing. Right. Right. I could, I could understand how someone could say that from the outside, but was not our mindset even even in the slightest. You know what I mean? marketing's about selling stuff Is it What do you think it is? I think marketing is more or less making

more associations Which is essentially establishing your brand and then I think marketing, the, the pool of like why you need the thing. And so what you guys had was two really cool, not advantages, cause everybody had it, but you just saw around the curve, which is the internet posting pictures, posting videos, and you had the cool new workout thing that was very clearly defined and easily understood if you spent a little time reading it. Right. But like all that was the clearly defined and easily understood if you spent a little time reading it. Right. But like all that was the combination of letting people know that your thing exists in different

like like forms that nothing really had a lot of at that time in terms of the fitness industry. Like people weren't really uploading videos like how you guys were like people posting daily. But that's not marketing. That's not how would you define marketing? Let me give you an example. Greg would say at the beginning of every level one, everything that I'm giving you here today, a 12 year old could get off the internet.

And so I don't think he was running some sort of Psyop. No, I just think that marketing, especially now, day and age, especially because there's just so much information out there, that marketing is giving away all your stuff for free. And then you would pay for implementation of that. But back then it wasn't like that. When Greg started, it wasn't defining it wasn't as a marketing strategy. He just was doing it because he knew it was the right thing to do.

And he wanted to get the information out to people. And in turn, it turned into be genius marketing. And right. And you can look back now and say it's marketing. But I'm saying even back then, no one else was doing that. Not even in the fitness space. No one was giving. We were in an era where everything was being protected.

And I remember even the discussions where it became like, Hey, you can't protect anything. You know what I mean? You can't protect photos. You can't protect. I mean, we're seeing the Olympics do it. Try to do it. Yeah.

And that was just, they look like fools. Yeah. They look like idiots because it's just like, why would you not just have more people know about it? But it's funny because marketing still, I mean, still a ton of people believe this to be true, but especially back then and like the, you know, 2005 to 2010 error was all about like the Steve Jobs style of marketing where we're going to come up with this one really big campaign and we're going to put it everywhere. And it's going to change the way people think about our products.

Right. And that's super old school marketing that like, if you're still thinking that way, you're totally fucked. And the way that you guys were thinking would never be described as marketing. But now if you watch a ton of stuff on marketing, it is actually the marketing playbook of now this day. Right. Right.

Which is crossfit invented that. Yeah. I mean, it was definitely one of the pioneers of it in a pioneer of it that had the biggest global reach. Right. So yeah. Yeah. So it's like for sure there might have been some other people that were doing it, but nobody did it the way that Greg and something. And you had mentioned something the other day when you were like, Hey, we were uploading HD videos and you were like, dude, no one's going to download this is going to take too long. And like it's too slow. And Greg was like, it doesn't matter because the internet will catch up.

Yeah. I mean that thinking to be able to see around the curve and kind of out into the future a little bit that he has and that you guys all had when you were putting all this stuff up at that time, like that's why I saying like nobody would define it as marketing. You guys definitely didn't find it as marketing, but it was the, uh, a fantastic marketing play. Like you, he was because puke Pukey was anti-marketing.

Yeah. Uncle Rabdo. No one really talks about that one. Yeah. That's anti marketing. Yeah. But it worked. It worked geniusly.

And the thing that, uh, what it does is it builds a hardcore practitioners. It builds a really strong base. Yeah. Disciples not followed. Yeah. Disciples, not followers. Yeah. Disciples, right. An army instead of an army. Yeah.

And the one thing that I thought was always interesting when talking about CrossFit, and it wasn't brought up on the debate, but you could always just use like the cake analogy. Like if you're going to bake a really good cake, it's got a bunch of ingredients. And one of those ingredients that's really prevalent is sugar because it's in the icing, it's in the, it's a ton of it's in the cake. And if you start to pull out those ingredients that you don't feel are as important, all of a sudden the cake seems a little off. And if you just add more of the sugar at some point, it just tastes like shit. And you're like, well, we have majority of the cake ingredients and we just

dumped a ton more sugar on it. Why does it not taste good? And it's like, because all those components add up to make the case that the cake tastes really well. And just like with fitness and with health, all of those components are just different actuators or levers that you're pulling on adaptation to stress. And sure, strength is a really big adaptation to stress because it's going to deliver the most. But it's like saying that it just needs more sugar to make it better.

And that's not true. And you'll ruin the cake eventually. And you'll ruin the cake eventually. That's right. I mean, I know a person going to the Olympics for weightlifting that if we go and take a two block walk around our neighborhood here, this person is wheezing out of breath. That is it. But we'll lift more than anybody else I know in dynamic movements like snatch and clean

and jerk, which have a ton of the 10 components of fitness that are lifted listed out in the L one, but it's missing a couple major components. So I like only that, you know, and my wife does no weighted back squats, not for any reason that she's opposed to them. She just doesn't do them. And she does this workout that Andrew gave her that's 300 air squats for time or max air squats in 10 minutes. She does that once a week.

And I would put her in any affiliate anywhere in the country on a random day and she'll finish in the top 10%. My wife will for sure in her age group, but probably top 10% in the affiliate with any workout if you with never doing any heavy back squats and to think that I hurt my shoulder. I hurt my shoulder. I didn't do any shoulder to overhead for fucking a year, but I kept doing CrossFit and my strict press didn't change at all 135 when I hurt and 135 when I came back. And so I think that he does, I, I, I, I don't know. I, I, I disagree with him on so many, uh, on, on so many levels, on, on so many levels, so, um, but great guy.

Love the guy. Uh, it was a cool conversation that, you know, a lot of people could get stuff out of. Hopefully they didn't. All right, guys. Suza, thank you. Yeah. Ron Rocker, thank you. Tanner Shuck, thank you. Hilary, thank you.

No, Taylor, thank you. What is today? Thursday? Yep. Do we have any more shows today? Yeah. Shut up and scribble. Oh, we have Perrin from Training. Oh, no, that's tomorrow.

That's tomorrow. We got two this evening. Oh, Matti Sturt and Victoria Campos. Yep. Okay. I apologize to both of them. You each deserve your own 90-minute show, but we're smashed. We'll have Matti Sturt on for the first 45 minutes and Victoria Campos for the last 45.

Alright guys, remember, if they tell you they're hiring someone based on their sex and their skin color, that is a DEI hire. Just remember that. So if someone says, I'm appointing someone to the Supreme Court because they're a man in white, that's a DEI hire. They say that they're appointing someone as the vice president because they're black and a woman, that is a DEI hire. It's okay to say that. That's what DEI is. It's not choosing people on merit. It's choosing people based on other characteristics. Those are all DEI hires. Kamala Harris is a DEI vice president. The Supreme Court justice is a DEI Kenji, is a DEI fucking hire. I'm not saying it's good.

I'm not saying it's bad. But I'm just telling you, those are all DEI hires, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Rooted in racism, prejudice, and discrimination. All right. Love you guys. Talk to you soon. Bye-bye.