The Sevan Podcast - Paul Litchfield | Head of Product at GORUCK, Inventor of the Reebok Pump

Episode Date: February 20, 2024

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That's BetterHelp.com. meeting with friends before the show we can book your reservation and when you get to the main event skip to the good bit using the card member entrance let's go seize the night that's the powerful backing of american express visit amex.ca slash y amex benefits vary by card other conditions apply that is beautiful bam we're live that is cool. Thanks, man. Thank you very much. Paul, what's up, dude? I'm Sevan. Nice to meet you.

Thanks for doing this. Hey, Sevan. Nice to meet you. I've seen you virtually on all your podcasts. Awesome. Look at that room. Where are we looking? That's cool. So this is my barn that is in Massachusetts.

So basically, I live in Massachusetts. So basically I've got a, I live in Massachusetts, Go Ruck is down in Florida, and I work out of the barn here. I got all of my, I'll give you a little brief. I got every Go Ruck article of footwear that we've made, created, what we're developing and all that um it's just just what i where i work here because uh i uh i'm too old to move back down to florida or anything so what hey isn't don't i'm uh i don't know how old you are i was born in 72 but um doesn't

florida sound good to you for so you don't ever have to do winters? Like as I get older, I don't want to do winters. Yeah, no, brother. For me, I was born and raised in Boston and spent, I did my growing up here. So for me, the winter is fine. And you guys are a different breed there. Boston, Massachusetts people are tough, huh? You guys are tough. I don't know about tough, but we're resilient, you know?

They punch you in the, they slap other babies in the butt. They you guys in the face yeah did you see my nose yeah that's that's well earned what did you get did you get in a good good fight did that to you I used to box a little bit so and you did power lifting too right yes I did yeah hey tell me how did you get into boxing I know this is by the way for anyone who doesn who doesn't know, this is the product, head of product over at GORUCK, but that's his most recent position. He has been everywhere in the shoe world. He was at our beloved Reebok, who was around in the early days of CrossFit with the Nano 2,

but his claim to fame there was the Reebok pump, and then Paul was also the head of product over at Puma yeah I was president of Puma for a little brief cup of coffee I left Reebok when we weren't seeing eye to eye uh in um late 97 early 98 I stayed there for a little bit and then um and then had a chance to come back to for a host of reasons had a chance to come back to, for a host of reasons, had a chance to come back to Reebok when it was needing to kind of refocus back in 2000. So I came back in 2000 and stayed there until 15. Okay, we'll get to that. But I wanted to hear, tell me about boxing.

How did you get into boxing? Oh, just, you know, that's one of the ways you worked out back in the day, you know. And I used to go down to the Y and box. And, you know, just, you know, just kid stuff. And I enjoyed it. So day you know uh and i used to go down the y and box and you know just you know just kid stuff and i i enjoyed it so you know did you like fighting yeah you did like fighting from a young age oh yeah yeah so me and my brother uh we kind of uh came out that way my brother's a couple years younger than me so and i'm uh i'm 63 so i'm a little bit older than than you boys so you're you're i'm uh 72 so you're basically 60 i'm 60 yeah i'll be 64 in the fall so

and god and you keep reinventing yourself is going to go ruck reinventing a guy who came from reebok uh so in some ways yes but now but in other ways and fundamentally, no, not at all. And it's, you know, I had been in research. So my background's in biochem as an undergrad. Then I did nutritional biochem. And then I did, so I got my master's and worked on my PhD, which I never completed in muscle physiology and performance. And that's when I was doing a lot of power lifting and Olympic lifting and strength was a big deal back in the days, you know, right after pumping

iron and stuff like that, you know, the, the, the, the world of kind of strength and performance, it was it was not as mainstream as it is with CrossFit and some of the fitness things these days. So, you know, we we did a bunch of stuff. I did a lot of work trying to understand all the muscle, how the body works, how muscles work, how you get stronger, what what occurs and things like that. That was my focus in in you so you want it go ahead go ahead and then and then basically i i abruptly left the phd program long story not for this podcast but uh did you sleep with a teacher did you sleep with a teacher no no basically i wouldn't i wouldn't investbezzle money for a guy. So. Oh, so, yeah, a whole different thing. So I basically I just said no. And at the time I was a firefighter and my wife and I kind of were up in up in Amherst, Mass, doing doing stuff. And and I had a chance actually to go down to the University of Florida at Gainesville to finish my Ph.D.

I had a chance actually to go down to the University of Florida or Gainesville to finish my PhD. Actually, the original Phys Ed building down there in Florida is right outside the Gainesville football stadium. And it was chock full of gear and research equipment that was being funded by Nautilus. Remember Nautilus? I do. Yeah. So they wanted me to do strength research. That was my kind of focus. And, uh, ultimately I, I actually took an interview with a small company in, uh, in Boston that was working on, um, uh, that was doing sporting good

stuff called Reebok. How small was small at the time? Uh, we were, uh, $55 million, uh, when I 55 million dollars When I joined And I was the Sixth person In the R&D department I was what's called A developer, you know, researcher Developer, so, and we had three designers And myself and two other buddies That I worked with

And started making shoes And I found out I had A little bit of an aptitude For that based on my size Paul, sorry, I'm going to interrupt you Started making shoes and I found out I had A little bit of an aptitude for that Based on my size Paul, sorry, I'm going to interrupt you Before we get too far ahead in the story You're in Gainesville

No, I was in Boston No, but when you saw the job opportunity You were in Gainesville, right? For Reebok? No How do you hear about a job It was 1985? Yeah How do you hear about a job in what, in 19, it was 1985? Yeah.

How do you hear about a job? Are you like flipping through the newspaper and you say shoe developer? And what makes you think you're qualified to do it? I mean, now clearly you found the right job. But how do you know in 1985 that you can develop shoes? How do you get that job? Someone tells you? How do you know?

No, honestly, Seven, it's a complete forrest gump thing okay so basically what happened was i had spent some time out in um i had spent some time out in um in uh england i'm sorry in scotland and i was doing research uh on human performance and i was working at a place called the institute for offshore environmental medicine doing all kinds of like really kind of wacky kind of human performance work. And also I got funded by Nike to work, to look at their Columbia air cushion shoes, to look at muscle damage and things like that. Long story.

Anyways, out of grad school at UMass, UMass was really well known in exercise science and there was a bunch of folks that worked in the sneaker business at the time you know and mainly out of Nike uh because Nike was the big was that the Silicon Valley of shoes was Massachusetts kind of the really it was for the United States it was kind of the hub of shoe stuff yeah so so I did my undergrad at University of New Hampshirepshire and uh i used to go over uh on tuesday and thursday afternoons and uh worked as a um uh for a couple of classes we had worked as a research assistant uh at nike exeter uh where they did they were doing all kinds i mean

that was the mecca of of uh footwear development and research and all that. And that's where, like at the time, the director of research was this guy, Tom Clark, who became CEO of Nike for the longest time. And there is, you know, a who's who in the footwear business came out of Nike Exeter. Right. And so, you know, again, that was that was a moment in time. And so, you know, again, that was that was a moment in time I had no intention of going into the business through a mutual friend. I got contacted. They said, hey, you know, you want to come down and interview for Reebok? And quite frankly, I was like, no, you know, I was going to be. And so then what happened was I went down and interviewed and hit it off with these guys and we were hanging out and we had the interview then we did some working out and you

know we basically finished up with some pizza and beer that night uh and i'm like hey thanks for doing this and they go oh no no that's fine we do this all the time and i'm like no i get it but that's good old day shit yeah no this is this this is this is old school. So this is, you know, and as a matter of fact, from a from an OG perspective, I listen to your podcast with Jimmy. Right. And you guys are OG CrossFit. You know, I was I was lucky to be kind of OG Reebok. Right. And so back in the day, I was a really small little team. And we and it it caught on and i i found that you know in my chemistry background i could work with uh the material folks the duponts the dows the good

year people and things i understood you know what those what those and what shoes were you wearing in your interview oh shit i don't i don't know probably adidas because i had an uncle who used to sell for adidas way back in the day. And that was like, you know, I probably weren't Oregon's or SL 72s or something, you know. So you didn't try to run out and get Reeboks to kiss their ass or something? No, no. OK, OK, OK. That's well, first of all, I couldn't afford it. Second of all, that was, you know, Reebok at the time they made they were making just some track and field shoes, specialty shoes made out of Bolton, England.

And then they had just launched this shoe called the Freestyle, which was the first women's shoe for aerobics. And at the time, I mean, it's kind of not a silly shoe, but it's a casual shoe now. But it was kind of state of the art back then. Right. So, so that just wasn't my, wasn't my shtick. So I ended up, um, yeah. Oh, I remember that shoe. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. My mom had those. Yeah. Dude, by the way, is this Sergio in the background doing this stuff? It's a, I call him Caleb, but he wouldn't care if you called him Sergio. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. He looks like a young version of you, dude.

He looks like a young version of you, dude. He looks like a young version of you. Dude, I don't know if I wish that on anybody. I don't, but it's the facts. Yeah. No, that's very cool. No, that's a good play, Caleb. Yeah, so that's you there. So... Okay, so you go in there. Do you remember

the workout you did with those guys? Yeah, we just did some lifting back. They had a little gym, a little homemade gym in the lab area. We went for a run, came back, and it was just hanging out. Did you do bench press, pull-ups, all that fun, the dude stuff? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that was back during the old school workouts and all.

In running, so back in the 80s when we worked out, you know and I know you did bench and tries and then you did back and bys and you never did legs. But for the fact that you guys went on a run together, that was kind of ahead of its time to go out running with some guys. Oh, yeah. But you got to understand Reebok, the folks that were working at Reebok were,

they were all all legit runners. They were all pencil necks. I mean, this was during the 70s, 80s running boom, right? So running was the thing. And so we'd go out, and I did my fat man waddle back in the day and just kind of hung with them and hung out. But to me, the interesting point was that you know when we were finishing up it was it was just i had known a couple of the guys and um through grad school and stuff and and it was just a great vibe like it was a really cool vibe and it

sounded um similar to what you guys experienced back in the early days right i i did many a hungover uh workout in a hotel room at seven in the morning with jimmy ledgford many many many so how do you if you've never what is the first position you have so we know that um you're a smart guy and you went to college and you studied you got a master's and started a phd program and we know you knew about human movement that was your specialty and you had done some research so you knew how to do research and you were, you were interested in materials, but I interrupted you when you started talking about materials, but when they bring you on, are you like, dude, I don't know how to make a shoe. I mean, did you start getting into the philosophy of what shoes are even for how what's day one like?

So day one is, uh, yeah, all that. And, and and and and seven to be honest with you like what i always tell people is that going into the shoe business you know you're not it's it's essentially uh you're you apply principles of knowledge you apply your background and stuff uh and and it's not like you know you're're going in to get your civil engineering certificate or mechanical engineering. You know, like it's essentially it's an acquired skill, set of skills, right? So you apply your background and you learn how to do it. You learn how to put things together and all that. And I had, as it turns out, a little bit of an aptitude for that.

And it turns out, a little bit of an aptitude for that. And, uh, and, and it worked out. And like I say, this was to me kind of the halcyon days of, of the sneaker business. It was the mid eighties going into the late eighties. And, you know, um, the, the aperture, uh, and the interest at, at the, uh, in the population, the world for sneakers, not only to wear for workouts, but also to wear around, was really starting to kick up, right? And these days, today, you know, everybody races out to get their latest iPhone, their latest, you know, or Android or whatever, right? Well, back in the day, you didn't have any of that. All you had was, you know, the moniker was, what sneaker are you wearing? And that was how you stayed on the cutting edge, having the newest shoe.

Yeah, without a doubt. You know, that's how all the cool kids existed. But for me, the beauty was that, you know, they used to call it technology. they used to call it technology. So basically my job was to create new items that would perform and behave in particular ways depending upon what category it was, running or basketball or tennis or, you know, cleated or whatever it was. You know, you wanted to make footwear that could hold up to the rigors of whatever athlete you were focusing on or whatever athletic population you're focusing on.

So you get there in 1985, and there's no program, college program, on how to make shoes. So you're basically on the job training, and you're just in a crash course and and they're also wanting to pick your brain for what you know about the human body and materials and so and you're with this team of six and what is the first shoe um uh you you start working on so i i well i worked on a bunch of basketball shoes that were already kind of in process and learned that. And so, you know, my first technology was this thing called the energy return system, which was a series of tubes that would compress and spring back and blah, blah, blah. You know, looking back on it now, it looks like, you know uh i don't know elementary kind of stuff right but

yeah there you go kid well done caleb you're good at this stuff i had when i went to reebok headquarters i got a retro pair of those i don't remember the soul looking like that but i got a pair i don't know maybe 10 years ago that had that same color schematic yeah yeah most certainly that that became one of our class you know kind of our classics and all that. And, you know, um, yeah. And so that was because of air, right. Cause so Nike air at the time was really kicking up, uh, and Marion Rudy, um, uh, he, he had, uh, he had done the, the airbags and that was really a big deal. So we, we did a, uh, we did a kind of a different, uh, we did a different kind of approach. That was that Nike air was the one I think I remember as a kid,

you could see in the heel, they made it clear. So you like, you could see the air, whatever that means. Okay. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So, so we did that. And then the other thing, seven, which happened was, um, I basically got a, uh, I talked to my boss, um, and, um, and this guy, Lou Panashone and Lou, um, basically had myself and my buddy hugh um he gave us two tickets and they said hey you're going to korea to to basically live there uh and make shoes because that's where we made shoes so we went to busan korea and that's where i

i um immersed myself in the process of really making shoes by, you know, working every day at factories, going to suppliers, going to, you know, mold shops and everything. Yeah. So begin, you know, learning on the job. It was a really I was I was super lucky to have gotten in when I did get in, get in with the crew I got in with. get in, get in with the crew I got in with. And, you know, that, um, some of the, um, stories that you kind of related with Jimmy, you know, and, and the, um, you know, work all day, do your thing at night. And then, you know, we'd always get up, uh, five, five 30 in the morning and we'll work out, um, regardless of when you got home, sometimes you got home, you know, just in time to put on your gear, uh, and you'd and you just uh you'd work out and then you'd make the bell at seven o'clock when did you start having your own desires to ideas for your own shoe like they're i'm guessing when you got there you're like okay i'm gonna get in where i fit in i'm gonna help them with

everything they need and was there a point when you're like, Paul Litchfield's like, I got, I got an idea for a shoe. So, um, I, I think, oh, the short answer is that like, that's,

that's a little grandiose, you know, it is okay. It doesn't, it doesn't really work like that. What it is. Only Kanye has those ideas. Yeah.

You know, and you know, I've, I've worked with him, uh, and, and, and believe me,

that's, you know, I, so seven for me, I mean – Did you see the new Trump shoe? Did you see the new Trump shoe? I did. Yeah.

What do you think about the Trump shoe? It's gold. It's gold. Yeah. What is that? Is that a converse that they just painted up? I don't know. It looks like, to me, I don't know if you'd want to wear it on a basketball court.

You know? Yeah. I saw $9,000 on eBay already. Well, yeah. God bless. God bless all creatures. Great and small. And I got, you know, I mean, I'm not even talking about the guy. It's just, you know, right. The shoe. What the hell is that? Anyways, whatever, you know, Before I, before I, okay. I know where we're at. Let me go back one step. What did you, did you start reading about shoes? Like what is a shoe? What's a, is a shoe supposed to have, uh, is a shoe to protect your feet from getting cold or from attacks or what is a shoe?

So a seven, that's actually a great question because what I, what I learned and what I continue to learn today, you know, 39 years later, right, or 38 years later, no, 39, is that, you know, there are these different kind of disparate pockets that converge, okay? Like, I learned a lot about actual shoemaking from the, from essentially the European traditional classically educated shoemakers, you know, and there's all kinds of schools and, you know, things like the last, the shape, you know, the shape that the footwear is designed around, you know, that converges with, you know, and there's a lot of old school standards that are necessary, well, allegedly necessary for making a proper shoe, right? But then that

meets head on with biomechanics and ergonomics and kinesiology and science and performance. And that needs to meet head on with material sciences. You know, what's available? What can you do? How can you make it? And then you've you got to meet then you got to meet um head on with manufacturing so you know i mean to make a thing like you and i could go make a shoe caleb would help of course and then flash it up on the screen but uh it's the kind of thing where we could we could do that but how do you make something where you can make literally millions of them you know if you're lucky. So, so, so, so manufacturing plays a big role, um, in the, um, in the execution of what people buy. Let me, let me dig into that question a little more. So I'm a huge barefoot guy ever since,

um, I lost a pair of shoes in college and went barefoot and I was homeless and I went barefoot for two years. And ever since then, I've been a barefoot guy. I was playing tennis with my son recently about a year ago and I was playing barefoot and I hurt and I, uh, no, I wasn't playing barefoot. Sorry. I was playing in a pair of keen sandals, old man sandals, and I hurt my knee a little bit and I've never hurt my knee in my 51 years because, um, my foot was sliding around in the shoe a little bit. Yeah.

And, and I learned something that was the first like real thing I learned about shoes. And ever since then I wear tennis shoes when I play tennis and I strapped those fuckers on tight because it was that movement in the shoe. So like at that moment, I had an idea for me. I always thought shoes were kind of bullshit. Well, I know in tennis, you have to wear shoes because when you're running and you stop, you want to slide your foot and you need your shoe to like be breaks. And then you also need the shoe to be tight i'm just making this up but you need the shoe to be tight so you don't hurt your knee when you get there in 85 is anyone like hey dude we need shoes for i mean obviously it's our job and to make money but shoes are supposed to and when there's was there like a um like i've heard glassman say the founder of cross, all apparel should stay the fuck out of your way. Yeah. So did you have a philosophy like this is the shoe should.

So, so here, here's, here's the philosophy that I use and I've employed this with, um, teams that I've worked with and stuff like that. And this is where, you know, getting bet on to go rock, uh, i we'll talk about a little bit but i just i love the the place because our product uh needs to be transparent in its use meaning you strap it on it becomes part of you right so that it's not like this dangling thing like a keen shoe slipping around he froze oh you got me yeah okay so start again. So a shoe. A shoe needs to be transparent in its use, meaning it needs to become part of you. It can't be sliding around in a different direction or a different frequency or a different vibration than your body, like when you hurt your knee.

But it has to be apparent in its effectiveness, meaning this thing gives you the protection, the features, the benefits, and the functionality that is required so that you can perform your best, so that you can be on top of your game in whatever endeavor you're doing, which is why you lace down a tennis shoe, and it's been constructed in such a way where it protects your foot so you can go all out. And that's consistent with what I heard you say in another podcast

about being at GORUCK, which is a relatively small company, although it's still big, but relatively small, meaning you're not interested in a product that has a big product. You're interested in a product that's big in its impact, meaning it's truly functional to the group that's supposed to be wearing it. Like it has a huge impact like on a sport or on a on a mission, like for a soldier or a basketball player. You're interested in impact on the wearer. Yes, most certainly. And to me, that's that's the only litmus test, you know, and when.

I'll say shoes, which the Trump shoe isn't or the Kanye shoe isn't right. Well, maybe the Trump shoe is to like sort of probably it's a propaganda shoe and the Kanye shoe is probably like a fashion shoe. Sure. And those are a different kind of impact. You're talking about actual functionality for movement. Yeah, no, absolutely. And Kanye's designer, Steven, um, is a good buddy of mine. That's how I've worked with them and the way in the past. And, uh, Steven actually worked in my group, uh, at Reebok for a few years and that's how I got to know him. So he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a full on functional designer, you know, and he does he does Kanye shoes now. So, you know, but but but to be so to be fair to everybody. Right. Seven. You know, I believe passionately in the product that I'm able to participate in.

And because we hold a certain standard. That being said, footwear is very personal. Right. So there'll be people who buy that gold shoe and love it. Good on them. And there'll be people who buy that gold shoe and love it. Good on them. And there'll be people who buy the Kanye shoes and love it. Good on them. You know, my obligation and my responsibility is to make sure whoever buys a Go-Ruck product has a positive experience from the effectiveness of the product. Now they may say, oh, I don't like it. I don't like it for this, for that. And that's the, that's the tough part. That's the thick skin part of being in, in, in product. You know, people have opinions and, and they'll be very, um, um, very open to give them to you.

Very open to give them to you And we'll get to that Because I'm crazy particular About the shoes that I wear Sure Crazy particular So I want to go back How big I remember the pumps so clearly

The two biggest shoes I remember as a kid I always hear people talk about Jordans But the two that I remember as a kid The biggest shoes Were the Reebok pump And those kangaroo shoes with this oh yeah sure absolutely yeah and those were it was just crazy like all the cool kids had that you either had the zipper or a pump so can you tell me about how big was the pump was it was it massive uh it was it was huge but

to that point and i i thought based on our previous call, you might talk a little bit about it. I can, yeah. So, okay. Caleb, I'm going to do you one better if you give me 10 seconds, okay? Yeah, yeah. Take your time. Take your time. I got to ask him why shoes are pointy.

I don't understand why some shoes are pointy. Why do most shoes go to a point in the front? My feet don't go to a point. All right. So here's the deal, boys. The pump actually started looking like this. All right. These are the two very first pump shoes ever made.

All right. Damn, those are so robust. They look like warrior shit. Well, they're falling apart now, Dick, because materials degrade over time. But so, yeah, so this one here actually, sorry, let me do this in a way that's appropriate. This one here actually has got a little dimmer valve that you put on it, and you could fill up the pump by stepping on it in the heel. Oh, hey, how did it not just always pump up

With every step then It did but what happened was with this little dimmer valve You could set it so that it got to a certain pressure Oh and then If you overstepped on it it just pushed it out Yeah That was awesome and I thought so too And then this one here

We used a little We had a little pump in the back here. I like it. A little Schrader valve, a little, um, uh, a little, uh, kind of car tire valve. Yeah. Right. And, um, and I thought this one here was going to be, this was way before the pump. These weren't even called the pump at the time. So those never went to market, those two shoes? shoes oh no no no this this this set the agenda so what happened was basically um we did a bunch

of testing with some junior college small college uh folks around uh in the boston area uh as well as with the um some high school kids and so basically i wanted to see what was going on and i thought for sure this thing was this thing was the bomb right i'm like this is the way to go uh because you just walk on it was automatic well as it turns out um kids would sit on the bench and they'd pump up the back of their shoes and then they'd release and so they started interacting with it so it just became and it would make that sound right that's oh yeah yeah that was cool too so so so essentially they uh they went ahead and um uh and you know that i mean and this is the other thing about products. The whole product thing, everyone like, products are a pretty humbling experience, you know.

I thought I was working smart. It's like, this is the way to go. People, when they're using it, before it was called a pump, and they're like, we like this. I'm like, all right, so we got to make this now, right? So the problem is we couldn't make it, blah, blah, blah. I ran into a real break point where we were in some super critical timeline and I had to, I called in one of my designers, this guy, Paul Brown, who was a, he had done the freestyle. He's a British guy, proper shoemaker, right? And I'm like, hey, Paul, we, you know, we can't make the shoe, you know, because we literally can't assemble it. Like I said, manufacturing, because of the way this is done. I said, we have to move this, this pump thing somewhere on the

tongue. You know, we have to move it here because this was the most accessible place. And so Paul actually did this design, uh, and about, you know, five or six days later, he gets, he brings back a drawing that looked exactly like this, right? Yeah. I remember that. I remember that. So basically, looked exactly like this right yeah i remember that i remember that so basically and he said he says lich lich what i did was i basically put the uh the pump up top here and i made it look like a basketball and and dude seven i don't know a lot but i'm like that's it like that was it like that was it so we started focusing there's a tube he figured out a way that too there's a tube that runs down the the tongue into no no so so and this is what designers do. Designers go, Hey, this is what I want. This is, this is the, this is what you're looking for. So now we had to learn how to build

it. So I had to deconstruct everything we had done here, uh, and, and redo it. And I had about seven or eight months to do it. And it was, it was, you know, people actually say, Oh, remember the good old days. I'm like, ah, no, not so much. It was a lot, a lot of pressure. So, uh, but that, that's okay. It was fine. I mean, you know, not the kind of pressure that Richard Rice or Jimmy or Jason faced when they're doing their real work. So yeah, it's one of those things where it's, it's fine. So ended up working on that and, um, ended up making the pump ladder. So I know we're on a podcast, but I'm going to move a little bit, okay? Yeah, yeah. Do your thing.

You're going to show me how they got the air from that thing into the heel? Yeah. Oh, that's cool. So this here, I don't know if you can see this stuff. Can you see it? Yeah. Okay. This here, this is ultimately the very first pump ladder we've ever made.

This is a brass mold, and you basically weld it together. And this right here, man, is literally, I don't know if you can see it. Sorry, man. Yeah, no, it looks good. This is good. This is literally the first pump bladder. And so what it is, this goes down your tongue, right? This is on the tongue issue.

This goes around. This is one ankle. This is your Achilles notch here, this goes down your tongue, right? This is on the tongue issue. This goes around. This is one ankle. This is your Achilles notch here. And this is your other ankle. And it wraps around the front, right? So it makes a whole fit system. And these dots in here are actually calibrated to create different levels of inflation for the pump bladder and stuff like that. So that you get, like across the tongue, you get a uniform inflation in the pockets uh around your malleoli around your ankle bones uh you know you fill in the

gaps so that the shoe was intended to be essentially uh a custom fitted shoe for the basketball athlete because basketball was changing back then you know um it went from kind of the old school kind school set shot kind of game to a much faster, bigger game. Julius Irving started it with the ABA. Kind of above the rim stuff. Michael Jordan was keeping it on. Magic

and Larry Bird were in there. The whole game was changing. The athletes were changing. We wanted to make a shoe that could again become part of the athlete that bladder that you showed us right there does that hold that whole thing filled with air or just the spots where there were those little bags little no the whole thing okay one second yeah so it would tighten up on your whole foot oh yeah wow so basically what would happen sorry man no you're

good this is good and i like the background i like all the I like the shop look back there It's all thanks, man. Yeah, I got my workshop downstairs I make lumber I get a sawmill outside and I uh, I got my gym upstairs. So yeah, it's a nice barn So basically this is this is not gonna fit because it's but I get it. I get the spirit of what you're doing Yeah, so it goes around. And basically what happens, now this was made in 1989, so this may not work that well. But it's filling.

So basically what's going to happen is that the air bladder is going to. Oh, I see it. Yeah. And it fills up, and it fills up in all of these different zones, and it becomes, you know, and it just creates a fit system. Why did that shoe go away? Does Reebok still make the pump? Oh, yeah.

Oh, they do. Yeah, Reebok's very much about the pump. Is that one of the longest-running shoes they've ever made? Oh, yeah. Do you know how many were sold? Was that, like, the number one shoe for a year or two or five? Oh, a long time, yeah. Yeah, so, no that it went, yeah.

It, well, I can't tell you how many in the, in the tens or more millions. Absolutely. In the team that made that was six guys. Oh, it was me. And, uh, and, uh, and I had a couple of other, uh, yeah, probably probably five or six people. Yeah. I was working with an outside design firm, Design Continuum, to help with the engineering, help with some of the stuff. And, yeah, I mean, you know, the, so seven, and this is, and what's funny about it, okay, so we did the pump, and I was out there in Korea at the end of August, beginning of September. We did our first manufacturing. We had, we had

literally almost no sales. So it was $170 back then. And it was kind of one pair of shoes in 80. And what year was the release? 1989. Wow. Yeah. So, so, well, all of this stuff like that, that, that, that brass tooling. And so I went to a medical grade, um, uh, house that made like blood bags and sonar boys. And, and, and so this, this here, uh, at the time when we first started cost $17. Wow. Your guys' cost. Yeah. Basketball shoes back in the day would cost between 12 and 15. So we're suddenly doubling the cost of the shoe. right? And so what happened, Seven, was we had to call in a favor from Foot Locker. And Reebok was pretty big then. Oh, I remember Foot Locker.

Every mall had at least one. Oh, yeah. And so our VP, this guy Bob Behrs, basically kind of, you know, twisted their arm to take, you know, a container's worth, 5,000, 6,000 pair. But it wasn't until Paul Fireman, who was the founder of Reebok, as we know it, he held this shoe up at a big shoe show. And he said, this is what he called the freestyle of the 90s, meaning this is going to set the agenda. The freestyle, which was that aerobic shoe, that really put Reebok on the map and created a whole business for women's product and aerobics and things like that. Whereas, you know, the pump was meant to do that in the 19, you know,

leaving the 80s, going into the 1990s. And so immediately from there, what occurred was that Fireman got the entire machine. You know, our marketing, our advertising, our promotional folks with all of our athletes, they basically created the story. And they created the romance of the product. And so what happened, Seven, was that, I mean, for sure, project was mine. But I didn't make the product. And so what happened seven was that, um, I mean, I, for sure project was mine. I did, but I didn't make the pump. You know what I mean? The, the, the, the, the business units and the customer made the pump something that we talk about today that you and I are talking about right now. You know what I'm saying? Dude, it's interesting you say that because greg glassman wrote this amazing lifestyle methodology yeah with this with this pyramid yeah and with nutrition at the bottom and by the years after he did it the whole team because of greg's vision and incessant

talk about it the whole team coalesced around it yep and uh the media the trainers and once all the pieces were in place it just exploded yes yeah it was truly um it was it was nuts the whole team and everyone was living it too right everyone was living it and breathing it and once the whole team got on the same page so what you you're saying is, is it was the development of the shoe and it just so happened that the entire team got behind this shoe. Yeah. Because the accountants, the accountants made sure it sounds like it was expensive.

They got behind and figure out how to get the money to make the shoe. The creatives who did the advertising were inspired by these new things on the shoe. And so everyone started being like, and that can fail. That can not happen. You can, even if the leader tells you to do it, cannot happen oh it can fail spectacularly and so

were you guys scared were you guys like fuck this could be a uh like we're putting a pump on a shoe so for me i i was i don't i don't frighten very easily yeah and and i don't mean that like a tough guy it's no no no cool it it's it it's like if things get sticky if things are are are potentially in a bind that's where i want to be because did anyone pushing back at reebok they're like hey dude traditional shoe consistent what are you guys doing this is just bullshit all the time i i i kind of i was i was a bit of a leper at the time because um when we were when i was doing the pump and again i didn't have a lot of well reebok didn't have a lot of research i didn't have a lot of resources certainly so i had to beg borrow and steal and stuff and uh but that was my job and and uh and you know so

And, you know, so, Seven, I've done some lecturing and stuff like that. And innovation, everybody always wants to be innovative, right? Yep, yep. Yeah. Until it comes time to be innovative. Because innovation, by definition, is disruption. And disruption, you know, sounds really good when you're talking about the pump, you know, 30 odd years, 35 years later. But when it doesn't work, to your point, it can fail spectacularly.

Beta max, beta max. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. And so those kind of things are, you know, I mean. Even Apple, even Apple failed, right? And Bill Gates had to come bail their shit out. No, Steve Jobs. But no, but I'm saying Bill Gates had to come bail their shit out. No, Steve Jobs. But no, but I'm saying Bill Gates had to bail Apple out. Oh, you're right.

The first time around, they completely failed. And he's like, here's 200, even though I'm your competitor, here's $200 million. I'll buy $200 million in stock. Remember that? Non-voting stock. That was crazy. I was like, what's Bill doing? Kill these fuckers well so so and and and and that is to me that that is kind of the litmus test of somebody uh who has like really genuine and fundamental confidence in themselves and they

don't um they don't look over their shoulders you know bill gates and microsoft right and go ahead pump made people really rich right some people really rich in the company, right? Some people. Yeah, okay. Those are the people that I'm guessing were a little bit scared. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, fuck, yeah. But they take the risk, but then they end up getting really rich, right? Yeah, but guess what?

I get to do a podcast with you. Oh, good. I wasn't saying that as a dig, by the way. I love people getting rich. I love people getting rich. Yeah, no, brother, I would love to be rich myself. But the fact is, I did my job, and I was fortunate enough to work with some really cool folks out there. And we had a frigging blast. I mean, it was just, it was, it was great. And, and much like you, much like you guys, when, when, when you guys would talk, when you and Jimmy were talking like, um, before CrossFit became CrossFit, right.

You guys had some days, you know, you got, you guys were out on a, out on a thin wire. I mean, I, I know, cause I was, I was there in the early days of Reebok when, when that conversation started. And, and, and so, you know, it wasn't like, it wasn't like it was fully baked. I mean, I know you guys were committed. I know you guys are passionate and I love the energy to the whole thing because that's, that's the kind of thing that, that makes for real cohesiveness and a real, you know, when you have committed teammates and stuff and colleagues, it's a,

it's magic, right? Magic. Yeah. It was. Yeah. And, and, and, and so for that, you know, if we have a good project seven, right. And if we have something that we believe in on anything, you know, the fun part is the journey to get to wherever you're going. Getting there? I don't know.

I know a lot of people love getting to the destination. I like the journey. I like the effort. I like the, you know. My first film. I like, I like the effort. I like the, um, you know, my first film festival I won, I didn't even go to the, uh, I was at, uh, um, Forrest Whitaker and Selma Hikes. They, they did a offshoot film festival in park city. I took my film there. I won it. I didn't even go to the after party. I didn't go to the award ceremony. I went to my room and cried. Yeah. And my mom's like, what's up? And I'm like, it was such a fucking letdown to win.

Yeah. Like, I thought there was going to be something there. Yeah. And I was like, it was weird. It was a weird come down. How close did the pump get to failure? Were there times when there, did anyone ever walk in the room, kick the door open, and you guys are standing around a shoe,

and they're like, guys, quit fucking around and get back to fucking making Jazzercise shoes? Well, no. Actually, so what happened was when we did this we showed these shoes uh these two shoes uh at the atlanta super show which was in february uh early february and nike had their air pressure under glass which was their competitor had an off an off-board pump and stuff um and paul fireman's like hey we're gonna launch this these pump shoes at Black Friday of that upcoming, you know, what, February to November, nine months, ten months later, right? And I was like, hey, Paul, we can't make those. And he goes, what do you mean?

I go, you can't manufacture them. I mean, they work, but you can't manufacture them. Farman was like, hey, he goes, listen, if you think you're going to pick up a paycheck from us in December, that's because you're going to land this thing. And literally, it was like I had a contagious disease. People like, you know, they're like, no. So, you know, it's there's yeah, there's a lot of risk and not not feeling this thing here. So we did our first. so the pump ladders and we can move on to show this up in a second but all these pump ladders were tested for six hours at

the factory in massachusetts where they made them before they left we had them tested when they got back because we didn't know a lot about it so we thought hey if it's in the air does you know does this degrade does it leak so when the fact when Does it leak? So when they got to the shoe factory in Korea, in Busan, Korea, we had them inflated for three hours. All right. Like inflated and then released. Inflated and released. Wow. Yeah.

No, inflated and held. Oh, and held. Okay. So that's like nine hours of being inflated. Then after they stitched the uppers together with the, with, you know, needles and air bladders don't work well together. So then we had them stitched on. So then we had them inflated again for three hours. So there's 12 hours of inflation just to make sure the bladders work. And then when they put the bottoms on the shoe, um, at the end of the

line, we had them, we had people literally pumping up the chutes. And they stayed for another three hours, and then you had to listen to the air release. So we did all that. I left after the first week of production to bring back the samples. And so they had another couple of weeks of production to do before the first 6,000 pairs were made. So I get back to Massachusetts, and weeks later, the pump shoes come in, and I had the factory, our warehouse rather, take every pair out to make sure they inflated because they were, because they were, you know, it was a $170 shoe.

So I get a call from one of my buddies, this guy Dave, and he goes, hey, Litch, these things don't work. I'm like, what? He goes, we have, you know, over half of them just don't even inflate. Like, what are you talking about? So I thought thought like, you know, coming over, they, you know, some, some kind of, well, as it turns out, after I left the factory, the people at the end of the line, their forearms were getting really fatigued. So what they did was they took a sewing machine and they took the needles off, but then they had the foot, they, the foot kind of

automatically inflated, which is a a great idea except for the fact that this this little this little latex ball has got a duck bill valve here yeah and it's got a little floating diaphragm valve right in here okay all right so that little diaphragm valve what happened was the sewing machine could not differentiate like Like if you're punching it, you can feel this hard edge. Yeah. Sewing machine didn't know. So it crushed these valves. Crushed them.

So that was going to be the last time those things ever inflated. So I not suddenly had. How did you figure that out? Were you in a fucking panic? Dude, I almost fucking crap myself. Yeah, I bet. I would be. I side start crying well so because i i you know i needed the job i mean this is this is my job right so basically what i did was i went

to our model shop and uh we we basically took sorry we took the stitching off the top of the you know this is a closed seam stitch took the stitching off and i looked inside and there is staring up at me a crushed uh sorry a crushed valve right and you saw that right away you knew the shoe inside now and you're like there it is oh yeah oh yeah oh that's nice and i'm like well not really because i got all so i'm like holy shit so i had to i had to order like immediate so basically i got i drove out to massachusetts out to chickpea massachusetts western mass, a couple-hour drive from Reebok. I grabbed as many of these little valves as I could because this is where they manufactured it. Drove back, and me and four other people spent the next four days at least, like round the clock, four days.

We had I had a couple of people unstitching the top. Me and a buddy would take out the broken valve, carefully put, you know, put in another valve. And then I had two other people basically stitching this back closed. So and they and they all were and they all worked. But that was literally like pucker factor. That was do you get called into the CEO's office? Do you get a call like on your landline and you answer? And he's like, hey, Paul, you come to the office. I need to talk to you. Here's the best part about it. Up until about 10 or 12 years ago, I never told anybody that story.

Wow. So you guys just did it like behind closed doors. Yes, absolutely Absolutely without a doubt Like no one's ever to know that stuff No It's like you know because Because it's either a problem or it's not And we made it not a problem How much money in pumps were sold

Do you know the number Is it a billion dollars in pumps Oh yeah A billion dollars in pumps Crazy Are yeah. Like, yeah. A billion dollars in pumps. Crazy. Are they still made in the same factory? Uh, same factory.

No, no, no, they're not. They're not. And the materials have changed and there's been iterations since then. No, no materials are the same.

Yeah. So, um, we did a, we did a pretty good job. Did you come down? Were you married at that time? I was, you were married. Well, how did you meet your wife? Yeah. So we did a we did a pretty good job. Did you come down? Were you married at that time? I was. You were married. How did you meet your wife? I met her in grad school. Oh, OK. And you're still married.

I am. She has not. She has not kicked me out yet. Congratulations, dude. Thank you. I love hearing that. That's a sign of a good dude. Yeah. Was there a come down from that from that pump no because emotional no no not at all because again um we had very few resources so you know as soon as this thing had a a hint that it was i mean it worked really well but functionally it worked and so you know um we had i mean i had running shoot there was a lot, there were a lot of projects underway and the pump was one of them. We did a thing called graphite, which was a, you know, became, you know, carbon fiber in the shoes, arch supports. We did, we did new EVA, like it was a, there was a lot going on. You had a lot of irons in the, in the, in the oven.

And so you, okay, You were constantly stimulated. Hey, I heard that you can't make shoes in the United States. I heard that there's nowhere in the United States. There's no manufacturing facilities in the United States that can make a shoe. Is that, is that accurate? No, it's not accurate at all. Uh, there, there are, there are a number of factories in the United States that make shoes. Now they don don't make they don't make the kind of shoes that most people i shouldn't say that um a lot of shoes that are made in the united states need to focus on automation so any pair of shoes um like this nifty go ruck ballistic trainer right, that's a beautiful shoe.

Thanks brother. Um, so, so the, um, you could go to a funeral in that church or go on a hike. Look at that thing. I love that. You can also do great CrossFit workouts in it. Yeah, that's killer. So, so, so, um, but on any given pair of shoes from the time the raw materials get in until the time the shoe is in the box, about anywhere from 120 to 200 different people will touch that pair of shoes. All right. Making things, mixing things, cutting things, you know, stitching, assembly, all that kind of stuff. So it's essentially, you know, semi-automation meets the Henry Ford assembly line kind of thing. Right. And so in the United States, line kind of thing, right? And so in the United States, there are just not that many people who want to make shoes on a manufacturing line. So there needs to be a lot of automation. So what happens in the U.S. footwear marketplace, our footwear manufacturing spot, is that you need

to make shoes a little bit differently so they're not as advanced as some of the stuff you can make where you can put a lot of hands on it. They'll make a lot of boots. They'll make a lot of duty shoes. They'll make a lot of things like that. That's what I was thinking. So you're talking about just like I was thinking boots, like work boots. Yeah.

Does the U.S. military, are those shoes, do you know about those shoes? Are those made in the United States? So if you're doing any program of record, which is a Department of Defense terminology for like, hey, we're going to put this on the uniform, we're going to put this on the individual warfighter or something like that, it has to be what's called Berry compliant. The Berry amendment basically stipulates that anything that is sold into the department of defense has to be sourced in the united states made in the united states and that way there uh it's for national security you know so that you know you can't have um there you go caleb dude you are spot on kid i love this this is very cool. So DOD to be 100% domestic in origin.

The items covered by the law have varied over the years. Okay. Yep. Why, Paul, why are shoes pointy in the front? So many shoes pointy in the front when we don't have pointy feet in the front. Why don't they make the shoe? I recently just saw that the Nano 2 and the Savage 1 and the Victo shoe are all using the same mold, and it's a really old – I think you called it a Lass was the term you used. Hold on. So give me one second, okay? I'm sorry for walking away. Okay. No, please. Please.

I don't know what I don't know I think I'm guessing that the term last was like the the shape of a of the sole of a shoe and every shoe starts with the last pattern which is like the shape of a shoe this is a last oh that's a last okay okay so basically what it is it used to be made out of wood um and but now it used to be made out of wood. Um, and, but now it's, it's made out of usually high, uh, high density, polyethylene and plastic. All right. What they'll do is they'll mill it out. And the shape, the shape that you're talking about is essentially, it defines what the shoe looks like, how it's shaped, how it's curved the arch, uh, the amount of volume in the forefoot, the slope and all that. So that's the last. And so I heard, I saw an article.

I wish I couldn't find it. I looked for it again, but I saw it recently that there was, that the military had a shoe handbook and that they had this shape of a shoe and it's not a pointy shoe. And those are all the shoes now that I prefer. And whenever I wear pointy shoes now, I get something. I don't know if it is neuropathy, but anytime I wear pointy shoes, now I get tingling in my toes. It's a trick. So, so, so, so probably because your, your, your forefoot has splayed out, um, being barefoot a lot. Right. Uh, and then when you crush it together, uh, you know, you, you got, you got, um, in between your second and third metatarsal head which is your your toe you have a nerve cluster and what you can do is if you impinge on it and impinge the blood flow

and pinch on the nerves a little bit uh it creates a tingling sensation like your feet going to sleep yeah yeah especially on the outside toes um why did they ever make a pointy shoe why why aren't all shoes like why don't we walk around like why don't all shoes look like duck feet well because because that's the shape of our foot uh so ish that it's not quite duck feet but yeah i know what you're saying a more anatomical shape like a birkenstock or something like that right right um so uh bottom line is um fashion you know and and, and, and particularly, particularly women's fashion in, in the past, you know, this, this notion of having, um, smaller feet are more attractive shaping of the shoe is, is a, is a thing, you know, not my thing, not my thing, but a thing. I do get it for like rock climbing.

Like I put on, I've only worn rock climbing shoes once and I get it. They're so fucking miserable and tight and narrow because you, like you said, for practicality, it has to be attached to your feet. Or I get how maybe like a shoe like that has a wide toe box might not be good for tennis because you don't want your foot sliding around. It actually has to be like 100 100 part of your foot or you're going to injure yourself but but all these pointy shoes um there was a phase where the crossfit community went through uh nike metcons i don't know if they still do it but i so so going

back to what you're saying about people who like certain shoes and don't like certain shoes i was so dogmatic and like i i had trouble believing anyone could like that shoe. Yeah. So so and again, you know, shoes are super personal, right? Right. And so it's it's a. Sometimes logic and the the most thorough science biomechanics, you know, all of the anatomy that I could throw at people, you know, they'd be like, oh, I don't like it. It's like, all right. You know, and they like something that I just think logically they're supposed to,

you're like, dude, this is the perfect shoe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or the perfect shape of a shoe. Right. You may not like the color. You may not like whatever. Yeah. Forget that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But, but yeah, I mean, you know, from a, from a, an anatomy, a foot morphology standpoint, the foot is supposed to act and behave in a particular way. Like, you know, the hip bone connected to the knee bone, knee bone connected to the ankle bone, all legit stuff. And, and, and so, you know, um, when you hurt your knee sliding around, it's probably because your body wanted to have your foot in a particular position.

And because it was sliding, you know, your tibia and fibula probably moved a little bit differently than what your knee wanted. you know, stretch the ligament or you, you know, kind of like buffed up your cartilage or, you know, or maybe, you know, you know, your IT band gets to whatever, right? So, I mean, there are things that, there are just physiological aspects that are required if you're going to protect somebody. So, yeah, you know, a little pointy shoe, not my gig, but you know, God bless people who want to do it. You'll see, you know, every once in a while you'll see in some magazine or probably you could even Google it where it'll be like the 20 ugliest feet in athletics. And you look and you'll look at someone's foot, like LeBron's foot. And you're like, wow, did his shoes do that to him? No. So, so, so here So here's what's interesting. And I've had the privilege of working with a lot of athletes.

I've made like Shaq shoes. Back in the day, I made like. Like, look at that thing. Is that shoes? Is that from like Japanese binding old? Is that because the shoes he wears were just crushing his feet for 20 years? So is that actually his feet? I mean, according to this source.

Yeah, so that might be a little Photoshop because that's really weird. But regardless, the points made, like athletes, and this is what's really interesting, Sevan, is that making a particular piece of footwear for an athlete, particularly an elite athlete. Elite athletes are anomalies, right? Like some people, some people can get away with things that just defy logic and they can do things with their body because, you know, they're wired, right. They've been blessed from on high with all of the right genetics and all of

the right chemistries and what all that kind of of stuff. And they've just, you know, and sometimes, you know, particularly basketball players, basketball players tend to be kind of people who are essentially stretched. They're really tall. They're elongated and stuff. The only, one of the only people that I, that I've known that is like, hold on, Shaquille O'Neal, I may choose for Shaq. And that dude is just like normal. I mean, normal proportion, just huge. He's just a, Shaquille O'Neal made shoes for Shaq, and that dude is just like normal. I mean, normal proportion, just huge.

He's just a big human being, right? And so, you know, his shoes in length and width are kind of proportional to what you might wear, you know, whereas most basketball players have got longer, more narrow feet kind of thing, you know, at a certain size, just the way it goes. But, but, but you, do you see a lot of, I mean, you see people's baby toes. Whenever I see that, that are point that are coming in, right. Or their big toes are coming in. You see people's feet that are now the shape as they get older, the shape of shoes. Did shoes do that to them? I would suspect, I would suspect environmental conditions, shoes, um, probably had something to do with it. And, and, and with the fact that, you know, people don't generally take care of themselves and, and, you know,

they want to look good. So I, yeah, I mean, fashion knows no pain or something like that. I don't know, whatever. So yeah, I mean, shoes, shoes are, um, I don't know, whatever. So, yeah, I mean, shoes, shoes are, um, are either prescriptive in, in how they help you perform, do whatever you're doing, uh, or, or there, or they can be, um, or they be problematic, you know, did you ever make a high heel? Did you ever make a woman's shoe? Did you ever make a, no, no, no, no. And, and, and I don't, I mean, if I did, I'd make a difference. That's for sure. Probably wouldn't be popular. But but, you know, I mean, it would work. So, you know, seven. I mean, getting getting towards. So we'll do this in a second.

But no, go ahead. You go ahead. So things like working at GORUCK. OK, yeah. I met Jason and working at GORUCK. We wanted to do a. How did you meet him? How did you meet him? So I met Jason and working at GORUCK and we wanted to do a. How did you meet him? How did you meet him? So I met Jason when he. Jason McCarthy, that's his last name, right? Yeah, Jason McCarthy. Yes, he's a father. He's the founder of GORUCK. And so what happened was they have this they have this this portion of the company that does events, which is essentially team building meets outdoor challenge courses. Right. And so and it was run by Jason and it started when he wanted when he had these really cool rucksacks and people didn't really know what they were.

So he would invite people in early social media. This in 2010. So he would invite people in early social media. This is in 2010. He'd drive around the country with bags in his truck, literally. And he would go ahead and invite people on early social media platforms to meet him somewhere, park or, you know, somewhere. And he basically bring them through a team building exercise similar to some of the stuff that he learned in Special Forces when he was a Green Beret, you know, and how to get these people who don't know each other to work together like they were, you know, kind of soulmates, right? And it wasn't a competition. The intent was that you needed to do this all together in order to complete

the effort. And then you needed to, you know, um, finish together. You know, it wasn't like he who finished first wins kind of thing, right? Just the opposite. So, um, so, you know, that, that, that series of events that was catching on in 2010, uh, 11 and 12 And Reebok at the time we were in CrossFit, we had Spartan Race. We were looking at all, you know, we're looking at all the, you know, the Tough Mudders, everything was out there like that. So one of our, the woman in charge of our, our walking division, you know, outdoor and walking division caught on to Go Rock. And so they invited them up to explore the possibility of, you know, making, you know, creating some kind of partnership. And Jace came up here, met with everybody, and then eventually they begrudgingly said, well, if you're going to do, you know, these kind of different kind of boots for you or shoes for you,

we'll bring you over to the advanced, um, the advanced, uh, the advanced concept group area where I had my own little building. Actually it was right. It was attached to the, um, the CrossFit one box. Okay. I remember I never went in that room, but I remember there was a door and there was a security lock on it. And it was, it was like, Hey, you can't go. No one can go in there. That's my, that was my place. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that room. And, uh, and, and, remember that room. And so basically I met Jason, and honest to God, man, like right from the beginning, we just hit it off. And I really liked his approach to product.

He and I talked. He talked about how he did his GR1. I showed him and talked about the pump stuff. He said, hey, I heard you already had a shoe. He already had a shoe at that point? No, no, no. The GR1's the rucksack. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. And so basically, um, it fast became, you know, Jason and I would talk and, and, and he'd ask for things

and I'd bring it in through the system. And what occurred was that, um, when you have a lot, when you have a big company, there's a lot of stakeholders at the table and everybody needs to have their inputs and stuff. And so, you know, Jason would want something like this, right? And then they'd be like, oh, you got to make it like this. I'm like, well, they're not the same. I mean, they might look the same, but they're not the same. So there was a disconnect and it ended up not working out. So Jason and Go Rock walked away. And then this was in 14 and I did some events with them and participated. And I really, I really caught – I'm like, this is a special – He stayed in touch with you, Paul?

He stayed in touch with you? Yeah. Yeah. Was that odd that you had direct access with someone like that from the outside? Would there usually have been a liaison between you two? No, not with me. No, I had a certain place at Reebok just because of my history there. And so, no, I did that.

And then ultimately. Were you the longest employee? When you left Reebok, were you the longest working employee there? No, but one of them. One of them. Yeah, one of them. And so basically what occurred was I eventually decided for a host of reasons that it was time for me to leave rebox i started my own consulting business jason asked me to go be on the board with uh of go rock because

we just we just kind of hit it off and so i i got on the board uh and i told him i said listen man um not for nothing but i'll i'll make the boot with you so they didn't and they didn't have a shoe at the time no no so i've heard that's a crazy expensive endeavor for for even a 50 million dollar 100 million dollar company to be like okay because you got to scrape together a lot of cash that you can't promise we'll ever make it back is that true i heard making your first shoe is nuts it's nuts and so what happened was we were a 10 million dollar company at the time. Uh, and, um, and what I did was, um, I, I had some favors that I'm a lot of people made money on product we worked on. Okay. So, and, and I made sure that I always was, um, fair and equitable to my, uh, to my,

um, manufacturing partners and whatnot. And so people, um, people love you. You were fun to work with and people loved you. No, I don't know about that, but, but I made the money. Okay. Oh, okay. I made the money. Yeah. Fuck love. You made the money. Right. So, so, you know, we asked for some favors we pulled in. So we made the first shoes. I was, I wasn't even an employee. I just, I did it for nothing, you know, and, uh, I, and we made the first boot and I was I wasn't even an employee. I just I did it for nothing, you know, and I and we made the first boot. I worked with Jason and Richard Rice and it was just like, dude, it was literally magic. It was just fucking magic. And and and we made we made the first boots and and they worked out great.

And then eventually, once we started selling this stuff, Jason said, hey, will you come and work at GORUCK? And I said, first of all, yeah, there you go. So those are the MACV1s. And so they worked out, I mean, they worked great. They lived up to the Special Forces standard that both Richard and Jason, uh, required. Right. Uh, and, uh, and so, yeah, so we get the Mac V2s. I got a bunch, I got a bunch from here too,

you know, like, yeah. So, so anyways, the, um, the, the point is seven is that, you know, when Jason asked me to join, I said, yeah, I said, but, you know, I'd been much like Jimmy talked about. You know, we spent I spent most of my life on the road. Like a lot of it. We got my wife and I've got two kids and and they're old. You know, they're older now, 32 and 26, 27. But, you know, I told her that I'll come back to Massachusetts and I'll stay here. This is when I had my own consulting business. Right. I'll come back to Massachusetts and I'll stay here. This is when I had my own consulting business, right?

So I asked Jason, I said, dude, if you're willing to let me stay here, I'll work 24-7 for GORUCK. And I'll travel down, back and forth, no problem, but I'm going to stay here. Where is their world headquarters? In Jacksonville Beach, Florida. Okay. I heard you say in a podcast that starting with a company as small as GORUCK coming from a multibillion-dollar company that was inside of other multibillion-dollar companies that your original run of shoes were basically smaller than just the shoes you used to run off for samples. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's wild.

Were you okay with that? Did you feel like that was a step backwards, or did you feel like that that was going back home to your roots? What was that like working on such a smaller scale? and selling more good stuff, okay? But I knew these boots were good, and I knew they were different, and I also knew that, you know, out in the world, and you know this from all of your work with the affiliates and all of the CrossFit stuff, when you show up on the scene and people don't have a context for your company or for your gear and stuff like that, you know, that they're like, Oh, what the hell are you doing here? Yeah. You know, like, like, so you have to earn, you have to earn.

You haze people, especially tough, good companies. We used to haze people at CrossFit. I guess I'm, I'm assuming that's the way it is at GoRuck too. When you have tough guys like Jason and Jimmy there, you get hazed a little bit. Yeah. And people poke you. They want to see what you're made of. They kick the doors and kick the tires and shit. Yeah. And, and if, and if you can't do that, then, you know, then get a different job. Right. And, and, and, and so on top of that, the,

the consumer out in the world also has got all these choices from gold shoes to Kanye shoes to everything else. So go rock shows up and we're making, you know, backpacks. And now we make footwear, we make boots, we make, you know, ballistic trainers for CrossFit. We make, you know, running shoes, training shoes and all kinds of, and it's just a little bit out of context because they're like, you know, what right do you have to do that? Now, you know, I actually, without sound and self-indulgence, I think GORUCK's a unicorn company. You got Jason McCarthy as a founder. You got Richard Rice as one of the OG, literally military, legendary military personnel of the modern era, right?

And he'll never tell you that. He'll probably smack me in the head for saying it, but it's legit. You got Jimmy Letchfordford an og crossfit guy and he jimmy had did have a front row seat to what i would call is the steve jobs moment in fitness he had a front row seat complete access to greg glassman as greg just revolutionized revolutionized the the health and fitness space really important to say the health space too yeah no without a doubt and and for me you know um i'll throw my hat in as a a secondary support but you know i got a pretty good street cred in the in the product market and you were there you were basically you're one of the you were around to a front row seat as actually shoes went through a complete revolution too

yeah before i started at reebok when we were, you know, 55, $60 million. And, you know, within five years we were 1.4 billion. I mean, you know, was Reebok ever the biggest tennis shoe company in the world? Yes, we were. How did you guys, how did Reebok lose that position? Was there a catastrophic event or you guys made a bad shoe or what, what happened? No or what what happened no no so so so basically and this is actually a really cool story because um in the um early 90s or early 91 something like that um phil knight was getting his lunch handed to him by by reebok and he famously called a big meeting and i think in Sun River, Oregon, where he had everybody there, not just marketing and sales, but like warehouse, customer service, you know, people from the Far East,

from, you know, Korea, Taiwan and stuff. And he basically invited everybody. He said, look, we're going back to there is no finish line, meaning running shoes. He goes, I don't want to hear about women's shoes. I don't want to hear about aerobics. I don't want to hear about any other brand. You know, you're either with Nike or you're not. And there's the door. Make your decision. Something like that. And and and I got to tell you what, to this day, I don't think you're going to

find any Nike executive that says that names another brand by name other than saying our competitors. Oh, interesting. Oh, wow. And I applaud them for it. They've been a great competitor in the space, right? But he got... So he gave the company an attitude adjustment, and that's what happened, you think? And at the same time, Reebok was beginning to enjoy the fruits of the labor. And to me, much like the film festival... Like all of a sudden you got a coffee machine and no one has to pay for their coffee anymore.

Yeah, much like the film festival. It's like, to me, it's a little disappointing. Yeah. You know, it's like, okay, I got it. And, you know, between you and me. You didn't want to celebrate. You wanted to make the next pump, the next cool shoot. Yeah, of course.

Yeah. The next cool shoe. Yeah, of course. You know, and the problem is that when you, for me. Was Reebok investing wisely back into the company? Oh, yeah, sure they were. Dude, they were making money hand over, like they were making so much money. Right. You know, and from my perspective, and I got a peculiar perspective, but, you know, I'm like, hey, you should throw more money this way.

Not to me, but to the R&D versus the beautiful people out front. Right, right. But, you know, I mean, again, business is business. So, you know, the one thing. Like you're signing Rick Ross to just say Reebok in his commercial and paying him $10 million. We could have made three different shoes with that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But then again, that's also not a holistic way to look at it. But, you know, it's like I got to advocate for my position, right? I mean, that's just the way it is. So, you know, and again, Seven, I know I've wasted a lot of time. We haven't talked anything about GORUCK, but but but I got to tell you what, man. The truth is, is that the GORUCK footwear platform that we're doing is it's like coming home for me.

All right. You know, I am I'm obligated by my work with Jason and Rich and the team, Jimmy and everybody, you know, to make product that lives up to the performance standards that are set. And, you know, we've made like our ballistic trainer. We built it a particular way that was focused on functionality, biomechanics, right? Load bearing, explosive power output.

And all that. We've done things. Here's an example. You got 10 seconds for this? Dude, I got plenty of time. I got a fucking million things. Until my bladder says I have to pee, I'm with you. Thanks, man. So basically we do this contoured

sock liner, this insert, insert right in our ballistic trainers. And it's got a it's got the typical medial arch. It's actually a lateral arch. And it's also got a little bit of a met head relief for the for the transverse arch. So this carries your foot. Now, one of the things we realized early on was that in for this platform here, which is the ballistic trainer. was that for this platform here, which is the Ballistic Trainer, it's got an 8-millimeter offset so that it will be supportive through explosive moves when you're doing power cleans, when you're doing back squats and stuff like that, so that you don't have to dorsiflex and essentially have secondary muscles bleed out your power output, right? Blah, blah, blah.

Is that the shoe they're going to wear at the CrossFit games? The athletes will be wearing those. You know that? Oh, that's nice. Wow. Beautiful shoe. God. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Well, I'll, I'll, I'll link up after this with you and me and you, we'll make sure you guys are outfitted to give it a try. And I'll, and when I say that, dude, it's one of those things where give them a try. If they work for you. Awesome. If they don't, send them back or give them away.

I mean, I respect the fact that people have got different opinions. But with that being said, so talking to Jason, and this is how thorough this company is, and this is what I really love about it. So we did this sock liner, which anatomically follows something that we had done for the NFL linemen back in the day when Reebok had the contract. It works really well.

But understanding that CrossFit folks are used to more flat, for the NFL lineman back in the day when Reebok had the contract. It works really well. But understanding that CrossFit folks are used to more flat, so what we did was inside of our footwear, every pair of shoes, we have a secondary set of sock liners. And the secondary set of sock liners is, I will say, better than anything that is done in the typical sneaker space. And what it is, is it is a flat 5-millimeter insert, okay? And the material happens to be a very, very high-grade foam system. It's an EVA foam system. You can do your contoured anatomical, but if people don't like it, in the same box of shoes is this here.

The reason why we did it, Seven, was because we want to make sure that we're true to our objective. We want to make sure that people have a positive experience in our footwear. We want to make sure that these things work really well. And again, because I can tell you all the science behind this insert, but if you don't happen to like it and you want something flat, who am I to say? So we put that flat sock liner in for those who may want to change out in you know it's not you know it's not like we're doing some life-saving technique

but it is a significant cost and it's a significant um kind of uh commitment yeah hey a second ago you said um um we hadn't talked about go ruck at all kind of the whole time we were talking about go ruck because the way i was couching everything you're saying is i just kept thinking man uh go ruck and mccarthy got a guy who's take who has this massive journey and has seen a beginning to an end and knows what it looks like. And you have a wealth of knowledge in all sorts in product development. Did you do anything else besides shoes when you were at Reebok? Oh yeah. So yeah, I did. So we did the, um, by the way that I didn't mean that like, isn't just shoes, obviously everyone in the world wears shoes.

What a great product to be in. It's better than cigarettes. Yeah, exactly. Without a doubt. So a couple things. First of all, I didn't mean disrespectfully that we weren't talking about it because I do understand how you do your podcast. They scored having you, dude. They scored. What a score. So here's the other thing, and this is actually really, truly important.

The guy with the experience actually got lucky to be part of Go Rock, okay? Oh, okay. Right. Something where you can express yourself to a full potential because it's a young machine. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and because there's a commitment to doing the right thing and it's, and it's awesome. So, um, I also worked on a bunch of hard goods. We did apparel, uh, matter of fact, uh, we, uh, and we've done, i've done hockey gear i've done all kinds of stuff i i created a product um that hold on one second oh yeah o'toole was crazy into hockey right he had his own hockey side business oh no it actually was ccm that was the name of the company yep so ccm is a hockey company and o'toole came o'toole came to Reebok because he was the president or CEO of CCM. And CCM was originally a Canadian company, and Matt was part of an investment venture capital group that bought them out. And that's how Matt came to Reebok.

Is he still at Reebok? I don't think so. I mean, I don't know. I'm not that close. I think he's out now, but I'm not sure. Okay. So basically so basically yes, if I worked on anything else, I've done a bunch of other things. One of the things I worked on was this thing called the Reebok check light. Okay. All right. And so what it was is, um, it's basically, it's essentially, it was the very first head impact indicator. All right. So what we did was we, this thing's got an accelerometer

and a gyroscope in it. And it's got these three lights down here, red, yellow, green. And you put on a skull cap and you wear it on your back of your head and it goes right behind your left ear. And it will give you an indication of the force of impact to your head. And I said it. So we did this back in 2000. That was for hockey? Well, so what happened was we had the NHL. We did the NHL uniforms Reebok did.

We also had the NFL uniforms. And we're doing some MLB stuff. And so everybody in the company, they were like, hey, we we got to make a better helmet, a better helmet, better helmet. And again, ultimately, it's like, what do you mean? You know, more cushioning, more like what's the what are the metrics? So we got some instrumented heads like crash test dummy heads. And we basically would fire baseballs and pucks and everything, leather mitts at people, and just, you know, and we would test the force of impact. But the issue was, you know, depending upon the impact, some people can take a direct shot and other people get hurt and things like that so what was frustrating to me was that there was no

absolute indicator of hey if you get hit this much you are going to get hurt or you're going to be safe below this amount right so rotational impacts all this kind of stuff so we do we developed over the course of three or four years uh this this head impact indicator and um and i tell you this because you asked me if we've worked on anything else. This was actually, we launched it in 2014 and it became, it won the Consumer Electronics Show Product of the Year in health and fitness. Now, which was great because at the time you had your Fitbits, you had your, you know, you had all different kinds of health devices and measurement devices. And this little group of shoe guys, we won the Consumer Electronics Show, you know, Innovation Product of the Year in that. Now, as it turns out, we're probably a good 8 or 10 or 12 years ahead of time.

a good eight or 10 or 12 years ahead of time, because even when we were working with the NHL, the NFL and other people, they, um, they wring their hands about concussions and head injuries and stuff, but nobody really wants to do anything about it because, you know, somebody may not get ice time or somebody may not,

may have to get off the field or blah, blah, blah. Now, anyways. So, yeah. And so in 14,

yes. If I've worked on anything else, I've done that. I've done a bunch of medical device stuff with, um, uh so in 14, yes, if I've worked on anything else, I've done that. I've done a bunch of medical device stuff with with different special military groups and all that. And, you know, so, yeah, that's I mean, I've had I've been lucky to make connections and work on cool projects. every tom dick and harry wear shoes um and um every tom dick and harry wore basketball shoes and every tom dick and harry wears shoes yeah it is undoubtedly unarguable that the fittest people in the world whether you're seven years old or 90 years old if they do crossfit it's the fittest 90 year old you know it's the fittest 80 year old you know it just is that way we're we're not we we know it everyone knows it our shittiest athlete can is still one one percent of one percenter yep and and now when when goruck tells

you that um hey we're gonna group with this Because everyone wore the pumps right Like fat guys wore the pumps skinny guys Like everyone when when go Tells you hey we're gonna Make we're gonna start working with this Company and it's gonna be the fittest cohort Of human beings Who've ever walked the planet earth Are you excited are you scared are you what

What goes through your brain when you hear that So I'm not scared Of much all all right? Right, yeah. You don't seem like you are. Are you stimulated, titillated? Like what goes through your brain? Well, so the first time when I first, in 2005 and 2006, when Matt and the team began, hey, we're doing CrossFit. I basically set up my own little CrossFit workstation, workout station in my research area. Could you hold on one second?

Could you hold? Sorry. One second. David, we keep telling yourself that. Hey, fuck off, David. You know, I know it's true. We all know it's true. Tell me it's a fitter cohort, a tougher cohort.

Shut your pie hole. Back to back to the show. Thank you. OK, I actually forgot forgot i forgot this was live um so uh so anyways that's all right um yeah so so i i we so i was familiar with the crossfit you know when it was just emerging out you know um and and the whole functional fitness thing so you know the the standard i mean i met jimmy in the early days and, and it's, you know, and so it's just, it's just, it's one of those things where no,

to me, all of this stuff is very clean seven because it's like the fact that you, the fact I made product for Jason McCarthy and Richard Rice, uh, that needed to meet a standard in the SF community, the Special Forces community. I've made a product that needs to live up to a certain threshold of legitimacy. Your shoe can't fail while people are shooting at you.

No, exactly. And even if someone's wearing it to go to the store, being from Boston neighborhoods in the early days, you know, 50 bucks, 100 bucks, whatever, 200, whatever shoes cost these days, it's a lot of money. Like if I'm paying something, I want it to hold up to the value. So the fact that, you know, making product for the CrossFit community and understanding that there's a broad spectrum of opinions out there and stuff, you know, we are bound and determined to make the best, most functional product

with certain features and benefits that are meant to be obvious in how well they work and behave when the person's using it so no you know i mean like there's nowhere to hide in our shoes you're never you've never seen anyone do crossfit near jordan's no like there's nowhere to hide everyone's everyone's like everyone starts honing in on what the best shoe is because of how it functions at the end of the day no and for that one shitty shoe company that was with crossFit for a couple of years, those things didn't even, I don't even know what those were.

Cardboard boxes besides them. Yeah. So I said it, not you. I said it, not you. Well, that's okay.

I, I, I worked with all those guys. Okay. They were, they were Reebok guys. Yeah. Tell them that they need to do better.

Well, whatever. That's, that's, that's their conversation. But for me, for, but for me,

I, and I think what makes it really cool, Seven, is that whether it be CrossFit community or the SF community or, or any, you know, any group, it's like we have the opportunity and the obligation to make the best possible product that, that, that's, that, that is conceivable, you know, and that's, and that is, and by the way, that doesn't mean that you ever make a perfect product. Cause as soon as you make the product, you think like, oh, we could do this. We could do that. We could do this. And so, you know, there are, there are always ways to evolve and improve. And then quite frankly, once, once, you know, I mean, there are

times I don't even agree with myself. Right. But once you get another person in a room, there's different opinions. And when you're talking about things that are subjective, like, do you like this? You know, some people get very factual and objective. Some people get very emotional and subjective. It's like, oh, you know, I'd like it, but I don't like that color. It's like, OK, now you might you might say like that doesn't matter to you. But there'll be other people, as you probably know, who like, oh, I'd never wear a blue shoe or whatever. You know, it's like, OK. You know, so so it's a it is.

So for me, and this is what's really cool about Go Ruck, is that I have the opportunity to be true to the objective. to be true to the objective. And there's nothing better in making product than knowing that you have an objective and you, and you don't have to waver from that objective. And, and, and, and,

and, and, and that because of the cohort that you're designing shoes for now, which is a first responders and people who need really high functioning shoes. Yep. You like, you love that. It keeps.

I love it. And also, and also, and also quite frankly, CrossFitters, people who are out rocking on trails or hiking and like, like, you know, people, everybody always looks at, everybody always looks at the, the alpha male the alpha female you know and i i respect the hell out of them and i will make product to that standard but i also want to make sure that the everyday joe and the everyday jane the ordinary schmuck who is getting up and doing their job as well as they can so they get home to their family that the product they get from us at go rock meets that level of value and standard.

It's super important. I heard someone say something when they announced go rock was the shoe sponsor. Someone said, Oh great. All the shoes are going to be tan and black. And I wanted to punch them in the face. I'm like, who gives a fuck what the color of the shoe is? Because I fall in that camp. I need great shoes.

Yeah, yeah. Can I ask you a question? Yes. One of your competitors, I'll use that term, that made – well, you used to work there. They made the Nano 2, what for me is the best shoe that I've worn. And now there's a bunch of ones that still have best shoe that that i've worn and now there's a bunch of ones that still have that have that shoe box like the savage one and victos but the nano 2 was a utter disaster in one aspect the tongue does not stay in the center of the shoe

it is bizarre to me do you know as a shoe um um artisan uh engineer as a shoe, um, um, uh, artisan, uh, engineers, a shoe engineer, do you know right away when you saw that? Oh, they forgot to do that. Like, did they forget to do something? Yes. How is it? I mean, it's, it's not like it happens sometimes. It's like you put the shoe on, you take a shit, you come back and your tongue's off to the side. Dude, I took one deuce. Yeah. So I haven't even left the house yet. So I, I still, I still play hockey with Dan and some of the boys actually designed and work on that shoe and all that.

So, you know, it's really funny because the it gives you something to do every five minutes. But yeah, it's weird. Well, and again, there are ways to resolve that. And again, that's where, you know, do you know what it is, though, without telling me like in your head, you're like, oh, guys, you forgot to. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Crazy. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And and you knew exactly what I was talking about when I said it, right? Like everyone. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's like that's probably like all the engineers are like, oh, my God, they forgot to blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, right there. Yeah. See that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That right there. That's sorry. That's that right there Oh yeah See that right there That's it right there

Damn Okay Paul Can you tell me the story of the guy Who tried to get you When you were getting your PhD What was that story you were saying There was like extortion or he wanted you No no no You can't tell me that story you were saying there was like extortion or

he wanted no no no no you can't tell me that story about how he tried to get you to be part of some sort of like no were you guys counterfeiting hundreds or something seems like something they do in massachusetts that was that was a little bit too bold basically what happened was i had finished my master's i went out to scotland for a period of time and worked doing research in preparation for PhD work. I was doing a lot of kind of intense muscle biochemistry work and some real cutting edge stuff at the time in strength research. I did some-

Like with steroids and stuff like that? Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. And also how to change blood chemistry so that you can absorb and redistribute hydrogen ion accumulation, lactic acid. metabolic drink to drink so that you could manage emptying from your small intestine all the nutrients into your bloodstream without creating glycolytic changes. And like, oh, it's just all kinds of stuff. Right.

And I came back. High end nutritional. I'll use that term loosely. Nutritional studies on elite performance. How to get the best out of the human body. OK. Yeah. Yeah. And that was and that was my that was my that was my gig back then. Right. And so I'm experimenting on myself and shit. You ever shoot. Oh, I did. I'll tell you some stories later on that turn yourself into the Hulk. No, no. I'm more of a midget than that. But that's okay. Yeah, no. So, yeah, funny stories. But the, when I came back, I fully intended to continue on and I got, my department chairman wanted me to work in his fitness center, which was a fee for service with students and stuff, a cash business. And it just, it didn't smell right to

me. And I said, no. And he said, well, I'm going to pull your funding. I said, well, okay. I'm a firefighter in town. I'll just live at the firehouse and, you know, work from there. And he said, nope. And so, you know, I, I got to this break point and push came to shove and, and, you know, I, I had a choice to either acquiesce and do things that I didn't think were proper or walk away. Who taught you values like that? My mother and father. Yeah. You know, it's just, you know, it's through.

There's just some basic truths like everybody lives in their own skin. I got to live with myself. And so, you know, there are things that I do that people would be like, oh, I can't believe you did it. But it's good for me. And then there are other things that people do that I think, oh, I can't believe you did that. And they can live with it. So I just didn't. That was a line.

And I had an objective in the academic world to be, you know, some, I don't know, researcher, professor, you know some i don't know researcher professor you know physician whatever and and that changed your whole course of your life though yeah thank god yeah yeah yeah dude i mean for for me like everyone says oh do you regret no i mean you kidding me i'm talking to you right now yeah cool you think you'd be talking to me if i was a – No. No. No. So all of these things, again, for me, it's the journey part, right? And it's like, look at this. Nothing is predictable, and everything you plan will ultimately have an alternative plan for you, right? Hey, you know what's weird? This is way off subject.

I was thinking about this the other day. So you get these young – this has nothing to do with shoes. This is psychology now. You get these young athletes, Paul, right? And they go into sports, and they get good, and everyone starts liking them because they're good at something. Michael Jordan. And then they start having these – and now we see it in social media

because they talk about it openly, and it's weird. And they start getting like – feeling bad for themselves because they're like, people only like me because I'm good at sports. And it's like, Hey dude, that's okay. Yeah. Paul's only on this show because he was, he's been doing, um, uh, a shoe engineer for 35 years and has endless experience. It's okay.

At the end of the day, you have to like yourself for other stuff. Yeah. But don't blame us. It's okay. That sports, I believe day, you have to like yourself for other stuff. Yeah. But don't blame us. It's okay that sports, I believe, and I'm curious what your opinion is. It's okay that sports are what have you done for me lately? Yeah. So everything is. But that's seven.

That's luck. If Kanye wasn't a great rapper, we wouldn't give a shit about what he's doing with his girlfriend with the giant tits walking around in airports. We wouldn't care. No, exactly. And brother, like not for nothing, but I've done a little homework on you. You've had a really, really eclectic and very interesting career in life. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, and, and it's, it's actually, it's actually frigging off. It's awesome. Right. And, and, and you brought in, you brought all of those experiences, the good, the bad, and the indifferent to bear all the way up to this conversation. Right. Right. I'm the same way. And anybody's the same way. And so for me,

you know, social media, I tried to hunt and peck on it being an old dude. I tried to, you know, like, um, post things about go rocking, but I, I, I'm not a big social media person clearly. Right. And I'm in my sixties. Right. And so it's one of those deals where I, um, I'm in my 60s right and so it's one of those deals where I um I'm not defined by a snapshot or I choose not to be defined by a snapshot right it's like a moment in time but but you have a great story around the pump for example one of your stories that's a really fun story and it's okay if people are just like hey using you to tell that story like great i'm glad i'm i'm on planet earth to tell you the story about the pump that's fucking awesome yeah no so so right and and i i you have no idea the amount of the respect i have for you to be

interested in it and the privilege it is for me to do it but one of the things that i that i i kind of bristle at personally tell me is is is the fact that it's not about me uh like like like the projects that we're like the ballistic trainers this is not about me like did i make it yeah i made it that's my job but but you know or the or the you know the rough runners or any any of the stuff we've done, right? It's not about me. It's about, you know, I happen to be on the point of contact for it. You know, I might have created whatever. It doesn't matter. But it's not really about me at all.

And I really believe that to my core. So, you know, when people say, like, oh, you did the pump, it's like, yes, but asterisk, you know, here's how it really manifested itself. And Glassman came up with the methodology. If there weren't people who practice it, no one would ever know. Exactly. There weren't the practitioners. Yeah.

And Glassman is a perfect example of a guy who just lives passionately in his own sphere. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And, and, and, and there's a, there's enough energy there and enough kind of like, um, uh, mojo that it, it attracts people and that's cool, you know? And, and so, you know, hopefully on, on the product side, I, I have enough, enough, whatever to, to make sure Jason and Rich and the team still want me around.

Do you have any young aspiring shoe designers, engineers, creators in your midst that are in your satellites? Oh, yeah. So there are people able to be around you and use you and and and absorb your knowledge steal your knowledge from you you're giving it away to people oh yeah absolutely you got to you got to pay it forward and and yeah that's awesome i love hearing that and and seven to be honest with you um you know i do it unconditionally at go rock and i do it elsewhere because i've had the privilege of working with a number like a lot of people in my in my career all right were you ever guarded with your um uh knowledge and then

you had to go through some transformation one day where you're just like fucking i'm giving it all away for free i don't care so so i i don't i don't think it was that abrupt but i think in the early days when i was trying to claw for existence you you know, you like, I, I was never, um, I was never unclear about my capability to fix anything and make things work. I just wasn't. Now I, you know, people used to think, well, you're kind of a dick. Well, okay. But that was, you know, that was kind of my job or whatever. And, uh, and, and yet, you know, I it became clear to me early on that, you know, being able to being willing to teach and being able to convey bits of information. Dude, I get as much back from people as I give. It's unbelievable. Like like people with different experiences, younger people, certainly.

But even people with just different experiences, I go like I'm heading back out to Vietnam to work at our shoe factory and some of our material suppliers at the beginning of next month. It's literally like me going to school. And some of these some of these people are, you know, in their 20s or 30s, but they make shoes every day. They do this. They do that. You know, like I learn from them all the time. You know how they're making molds, how they're making what materials they're using, how they make shoes every day. They do this, they do that. You know, like I learned from them all the time, you know, how they're making molds, how they're making, what materials they're using, how they're assembling stuff. It is literally like, it's a, it's a, it's an opportunity for me to continue to be a student. I really liked that in the, in the media space. It's like that too. There's these couple, there's a couple of guys around me who just know so much and i uh and for some reason it i don't know it requires no humility on my part to just

bow my head to them and just learn to them i just love uh learning from them i want to go back to something you said it sounded like what you were about to say you supremely you said you had you believed in yourself to fix anything so you have you had some you have you believe in yourself does your wife did you know that your what does your wife believe in you did that play an integral role and she's still with me after 30 she's still with me after 30 yeah like i never figured the day when i when i left um when i left grad school because you know i just come I just come back from Scotland and, you know, spending just under a year out there. And we were and, you know, we had a plan. And I came back in, I don't know, right after Thanksgiving. The plan went to shit.

Yeah. The plan went sideways. And so Mary's like, look at, you know, we'll get it done. And Mary, I mean, like I said, much like many people, you know, I'll get it done. And, and Mary, Mary, I mean, like I said, much like many people, you know, I'm, I've been fortunate to have a partner in crime who has done all of the hard work and the heavy lifting behind the scenes, you know, isn't it amazing how important that is. Yeah. Um, I, I have supreme confidence in myself too, but when I don't have supreme confidence in myself,

actually, when I don't have supreme confidence in myself, my mom and my sister and my wife have always been there for me. It's crazy. They don't even flinch. It's like what you said when you came home and Mary said to you, we'll get through this. That one little thing, everything was better, right? right it's kind of oh yeah all of a sudden you're like oh okay yeah yeah we'll get it done what are we having for dinner yeah yeah yeah no absolutely and and and that's and that's how she's been with that and you know and again i just i just been lucky to be you know and again the one thing like at goruck the one thing that has worked out really

well for me is that um do you have sisters by the way yeah i got my my sister gail is a couple years older than me so she's you know my family you know being being from the boston area my family is pretty tight and very supportive so yeah that's huge yeah we've got each other's backs and that's a that's a big deal right okay sorry you, sorry. You were going to say something like go, Ruck. You remember? No, so one of the things that's interesting is that all these guys, like Jimmy and Don and Dave Castro, some people have done some pretty hard things out in the world.

Right. I'm working on sporting goods stuff. I mean, come on, right? It's like this is – I can get pretty emotional about stuff. I can get pretty wrapped around the axle about stuff. But when it comes down to it, no one's – I'm not – I don't have to duck my head. Unless you throw leather at me, then I got to because this nose can't take much more. But, you know –

Speaking of hard things and putting things in context, when you had kids, did your perspectives on shoes change? How did that affect your shoe thinking? Did it? No, I think. No. So one of the things that we did at Reebok in the early days and we started this um with the reebok human rights tour and stuff like that was that we focused before it became really popular on working conditions and on environmental conditions at the factories that we worked at uh and and to me um that kind of stuff is important you know

because i i want to make sure that i leave things in a better place than when i found them yeah and having kids probably because all of a sudden you cared about the future because you had kids oh shit yeah right yeah yeah well i didn't care if the world burned to the ground before i had kids yeah you have two shits yeah yeah now you got you got younger kids now right yeah two seven-year-olds and a nine-year-old oh you got twins yeah yeah oh very cool that's awesome yeah no boys or girls all boys wow very cool well done well done nice yeah so so you're in the thick of it and and it's it's the coolest thing going and and there are times when i'm sure you look at your wife you're like oh jesus another day

yeah you know yeah but no it's yeah no and that's and that's what makes it that's that's what makes it – that's what gives it kind of purpose. And people will find their purpose in various forms. Sometimes it's a pet. Sometimes it's whatever. You know what I mean? So, yeah. I think this is – I don't know how many shows I've done, but I do a show every morning at 7 a.m. And I've never, ever overslept.

And this morning, I opened my eyes and i saw the light was out and i never wake up when the light's out yeah when the sun's out already and i looked at my clock and it's 657 and i run over to my phone and i send you that text and i really apologize uh so so so first of all for being 15 minutes late because uh 2000 shows i guess i'm approaching and i just can't believe I was like, holy shit. But my wife jumped out of bed too and made me a cup of coffee so I could run to the computer. So no, so seven, thank you. What, what my only concern was that I was like, cause Jimmy, you know, she, me through

the gauntlet and our text message. And I'm like, I'm like, and about 10 minutes off, I'm like, shit, I don't have the podcast link yet. And I'm like, ah about 10 minutes off, I'm like, shit, I don't have the podcast link yet. And I'm like, ah, I really apologize anyway. So thank you, but no need at all. No. Okay. Uh, well, thank you so much, dude. Uh, great. I look forward to actually meeting you in person. I hope our paths cross. I assume you'll be at some of these CrossFit events or at the CrossFit game. So I'm sure we'll get to meet there and hug it out.

Yeah, most definitely. And, Caleb, thank you very much for the invite. Thanks for the time today. I hope it was useful. Very. Yeah, and, guys, thanks for doing this stuff. I like this podcast. The podcast is important, so thank you for doing this.

Cheers, brother. Here, I'll let you see. Here, you can see Caleb. There he is. There you go, kid. That's you 30 years ago. Dude. No, hey, hey, it's me today. Come on. Looking good. Hey, listen, listen, grass does not grow on a busy street, Caleb. Remember that, okay? There you go. Nice. That's right. Yeah that's right yeah nice hey well thank you guys i really appreciate the time and thanks for supporting go rock and this partnership like uh you guys talked about uh last time it's just it's it's literally like peanut butter and jelly man this

is pretty perfect it's pretty yeah it is yeah it is so thank you all right cheers buddy say hi to uh jason and jimmy for me we'll do it you guys take care thank you great to meet you paul legend god how am i late on the day that we have a legend like that come to the show what a douche nozzle the reebok pump man that's crazy six dudes sitting around a table fussing with tennis shoes god that must have been fun they must have had so much fun they probably got so fucking high on caffeine and just sat around and like and when that dude brought the pump on the on the tongue and it was a basketball he must have been pumped so we're like dude check this out check it out check it out check it out this is way better here's the thing i want to talk about this later.

Do a whole show. I have to pee so bad. But I was thinking about just the whole Mal O'Brien thing and just about her kind of like her goodbye or whatever the fuck you want to call that. I just wish that someone would be like, someone close to her in her circle would be like, hey, why don't you just tell the truth? Holy fuck, guys, I'm not going to fucking be doing CrossFit anymore, but I got two million dollars in sponsors.

I'm fucking tripping. So what am I going to do? What am I going to do? Look how hot my boyfriend is. I'm in Hawaii, but fucking life is good. But dude, this shit was hard, dude. This shit was stressful as fuck. So I got to figure out how I'm gonna How am I gonna do all this and I'm just working through My shit guys and look I'm gonna try to make Some content and stay relevant cause it's fucking Cool being relevant and I got some money

I owe to like I got some sponsor Obligations I don't wanna lose my sponsors I wanna add value To them cause then I can get Money and just chill in Hawaii and work out with this Hot fucking dude I got But fuck I don't know what exactly what I'm doing but I feel better and the pressure was fucking nuts dude nuts I'm just telling you it was nuts call me a pussy but I'm not and I just can there just not be one fucking real person and I get it I get I don't need her to be real because she's so young and like sure

as fuck I wasn't I but why doesn't someone around her just be like hey why don't you just be authentic like anyone who can scratch the surface just a little bit like hey dude it's perfectly okay that we only liked you because you did thrusters faster than everyone else it's perfectly okay now you need to find reasons you like yourself more than that. But listen, if Caleb's not bringing up pictures on the back end, no one gives a fuck about Caleb. That's not true. We really like the fact that he's serving our country, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

We like it that he's very carefree in the outfits he chooses. The same one every day. We got a free masters class yeah Paul's good huh yeah just just say whatever like I don't know hey just be fucking

real oh god it's just like I said why isn't someone in Mal O'Brien's circle of support just telling her to be real? It will go so much further. It will take all the pressure off you too. Don't forget to drink rain. Yeah, and thank you, and please drink rain. Yeah, exactly. It could be so funny like that. It could be so – there's a whole handful of these motherfuckers I want to take to school.

And you know who doesn't? You know who does? Look at the people who don't. Look at the people who manage it. Look at Gazan or Ariel Loewen, Alexis Raptus. She got something wrong with her dumper, and she's open about it. Sometimes she poops for like a week straight. Yeah.

And she tells people about it. Like, dude, set yourself free. Do you know why of all the media in the CrossFit space, I made the most fucking money by far, hands down, no second place of outside media at the CrossFit Games because I'm just telling it like it is. Well, I don't even know if I'm telling the truth. I'm just telling the best I can. And when I'm having trouble, I'll get advice from my crew. They'll be like, hey, maybe you should say it like this. Is that really what it is? And they'll start asking me questions so I can be deeper and more truthful. can be deeper and more truthful.

I'm not trying to, I'm not like, what the fuck are their managers doing? Who the fuck are these people's managers? Are they afraid of their athletes? It's perfectly okay that people just like you because you're good in CrossFit. It's so cool. It's fine. It's more of a reason than people like me and Caleb.

It's awesome. Caleb and I would be more than happy if someone liked us. Just if we could make $50,000 or $100,000 or $300,000 or $500,000 a year doing thrusters with our shirt off. Yeah, I wish, man. I wouldn't be living in this shithole. I don't even want to look at myself doing thrusters with my shirt off crying out loud anyway so anyone anyone free free counseling for any young athletes that call ariel lohan

or gazan they'll just tell you how to be real i mean there's other yeah colton mertens alexis raptus look to pick these just let it fucking hang or don't say anything or just don't say anything but just like when you talk and it opens up when you're like explanation opens more questions than it closes it's just and and what here's the worst part the people that you attract at that point are all the head cases because you haven't said anything but they know what you're saying and they start saying stuff like this you're so brave i can't believe you're so mature you're so brave the fuck so mature for your age wow

no you're fucking broken yeah look at yeah Hopper's having a ball right now yeah Jason Hopper another one just fucking he just let it go freed himself up. Took a colossal psychological shit.

And he's free. You're so – and so those people, when you do that, when you give that superficial response that doesn't say anything, that has no depth to it, that doesn't set you free. The people that you attract to that are all the people who are trapped in their head, who think that they understand what you're saying. Those are the last people you want around you. You don't want to be a magnet to fucking mental illness. You want people to be like, damn, that bitch is real. Fuck, get yours. damn that bitch is real fuck get yours and like i said i'm not putting it on anyone specific but the team of people around those people how about the like the the i know hillar likes to point the

filmmakers a lot yeah how about the filmmakers too are you this angry because paul kept calling you seven um um david i do owe you a thank you was fun, uh that you threw me up that alley-oop I love you, buddy. I was like man. I gotta put some I gotta I gotta I gotta snap. I need some Hey, did you see this no rep news meme? about uh the show No, what was it? It says the beginning of the show is bam. We're live The middle of the show is bam. We're live. The middle of the show is a guest.

Then the last section of the show is a unhinged rant. And then the end of the show is I have to pee and go to the bathroom. Bam or live guest interview. Unhinged rants. I got to pee. Goodbye. Wow. That's amazing. Somebody figured it out. It's solid, right? Yeah, right. I'm in the middle of writing a book on how to have a successful podcast, and that's going to be my cover right there. That's going to be my cover for my podcast.

That's so good. Yeah, David, that was awesome. You just put it up there. I was like, all right, all right. I can slam this one in. I appreciate you. I love you. All right. right all right i can slam this one in i appreciate you i love you all right um i'll try to do a new show today i don't i don't i i i i don't know what i'm doing today well who

do we have tomorrow um oh uh we have paul edgefield today uh tomorrow tomorrow we have kevin ogar that's gonna be good probably best sense of humor in the uh crossfit space great dude oh here we have kevin ogar that's gonna be good probably best sense of humor in the crossfit space great dude oh here we go oh i gotta pee so bad i can't be fucking around hold on hold on i gotta i don't have my phone hooked up hold on go figure uh where's bluetooth hold on hold on bluetooth on okay caller hi god i gotta pee hello hey i wonder don't pee your pants i wonder how many people when i say i have to pee they have to pee i wonder if half the dude i gotta pee my pants right now oh gabe what's up dude chilling man i just actually called in real quick to to peddle some some new merch some new new coffee. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Did you get your new bag of coffee? Yeah. What was the brand? What was the flavor? Hank. Hank. That's the name of the coffee. That's right.

Hank. Hank. How'd you come up with Hank? Did you? I have the narrator. I don't know. I have the narrator bag in front of me. You just came up with Hank just out of nowhere, just like Hank.

I didn't come up with it. Did you see the little pig and wiener dog? Oh, no. No, I didn't look closely at it. I just saw it, and then I probably ran off and was wiping someone's ass in the shitter. It's only 50 bags available. It will be available in the next few minutes.

It's Colton's coffee. I heard there's actual pig shit in it. I heard there's actual pig shit in it. I heard there's actual pig shit in it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically, we let the bean to dry in pig crap, and then it tastes amazing, though. Hank, Paper Street Coffee. I'm looking.

Did you find it, Caleb? Yeah, here it is. I'm trying to beat Caleb. Fuck, I'll never beat him. Wow. Wow. Hank. So, it's basically Colton's coffee you get a shirt with it so that's

why it's a little it's uh 49.99 and uh you get this awesome coffee there's only 50 available it'll never come back once these are gone these are gone um and yeah we're we're excited to try out this what did that shirt say i love coffee anal and wieners oh oh oh oh hey that looks like anal just so you know yep wow i mean that too flexible a little coffee a little coffee enema never hurt nobody that's awesome so when it goes for sale when any second now right now right now if caleb pulled it up it's it's there you get coffee and you get a shirt and you get to support colton kicking fucking ass kicking justin's ass and kicking taylor's ass during the open god that's gonna be so good can you believe he's going to the shred shed to

fucking war with the two-time champ can i believe colin's gonna to do epic shit? Yeah, I can believe it 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Go pee, man. I got to go pee too. Okay. Love you. I'll talk to you guys. Okay.

Paulina says it's live. Thank you, Gabe. Bye-bye. All right, guys. Love you guys. Tomorrow, Kevin Ogar, he's the director of the CrossFit Games for the Adaptive. That'll be cool having him on.

Haven't talked to him in a long time. Wednesday, Greg Glassman. Thursday, Rafa Sanson. We find out about how he got to the country, and he's a HWPO athlete. He's a cool dude. He's the Mexican version of me. And then, oh, my God. You know the guy on Instagram that I had on before who only ate raw meat for, like, 865 days? He would just get an octopus at Whole Foods and eat it.

Well, now he's just eating chicken, raw chicken. And he'll be on the show Fridayiday morning bam all right guys love you god i gotta be bye