The Sevan Podcast - Shut Up and Scribble with John Young & J.R. Howell

Episode Date: September 1, 2024

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say, Mr. Self is in Italy with his lovely wife, Elizabeth. They are enjoying several different cities touring. And apparently, he's not eating any gelato, which I still wanna know if that's true. He's eating probably lots of pasta that does not have enriched bleach flower in it and all the things that make it not clean here in the United States. I felt bad for him.

I feel like it would have been really be a to win today In your apartment, you know doing that workout in your apartment only for tutored to just kind of Beat him easily. I was I was pulling for him most of the time I'm pulling for him to get beat but today I was pulling for him to win and it didn't happen. So So I actually didn't get to watch it what happened. I Was coaching this morning with You know the workout? Yeah. Yeah. The basically Annie but drag rope and the ups. Yeah. Yeah. Essentially. And Taylor did it in 821. Nobody was really nobody was really close. And then Tudor Magda

came in and down was there and James was there and his dad was there. And Tudor said, like, I mean, kind of just beat him fairly easily. And but like they didn't know they didn't know what his paces were, like versus Taylor's paces. So they all thought they were really close. Meanwhile, he's like 30 seconds ahead like in the like that's four minute mark he's 30 seconds ahead. What was it what what was it? I mean Taylor's incredible at Drag Rope which is why I programmed 300 Drag Rope and he'd be up very fast. He told me what he what he had access to and I was like let's do something high volume at least

high volume enough to where it's not super short but it's not like really, really long. How much faster? So I see in the comments 745 was that tutors time? Yeah, Taylor was 821. Wow. So it was, it was kind of, and he made it. Where did you, where did you see the difference?

V up speed? I did the V up speed, man. Like he, he, I mean, obviously tutor is very, very good at drag rope. But so is Taylor. So like the difference there, I think would have been negligible. I think Taylor or tutor was a little faster, but not nothing crazy. And then he just V up really, really fast. They both were hurting. Neither one of them went like straight through. They both had moments of pause right on the ground. But even

that 745 time like Tudor took he I wish he would have drawn it drawn it out a little bit longer than he did. But like he did like five of the last 10 and then just pause there and then did two and then pause there and then did you know and then just out exactly what Taylor would have done. I was hoping I was hoping Tudor would have done like nine and then did you know and then just out exactly what Taylor would have done I was hoping I was hoping tutor would have done like nine and then like got up walk to the camera and then looked at it and then just did one but that's cool and they'll be they'll be competing against each other at NorCal right yeah and then smack too so good that's what I mean that's what everyone

wants I think Colton's what everyone wants. I think Colton's the first to realize things like that. And then, you know, you have Jason and Downs friendly kind of banter back and forth. We all like to hear stuff like that. We love it when those guys kind of call each other out and tutor. I've had a couple people drop buddy.

If you want to get in against Colton and Taylor again I know it's a quick turnaround come to crucible. It'd be cool I'd love to see all I'd love to see all three of them compete here, too and just From a like nerdy programming standpoint, however, they finish up at NorCal which will have its own flair which will get into with their programming and then when they come to crucible that programming I'm sure will be different and Just to kind of see where they end up obviously P score is a little bit different to

Than traditional scoring but again like it's just something that kind of makes crucible unique and I'm cool to It's just something that kind of makes Crucible unique and I'm cool to Continue to do it and make Tyler kind of sweat out every year if he's gonna be able to It is gonna be able to crunch the numbers, you know what I mean in time It's like how everybody wants it like what's going on, right? It's close enough to it doesn't make that much of a difference I mean Colton won four of the last he won four in a row the last four in a row last year and the last he went four in a row, the last four in a row last year. And Hatfield still beat him in regular scoring and P score, even though Colton looked like he dominated, right?

So it's not, it's not as different as I think people. Yeah. Last year's crucible programming was so specific. Like every test was very, very specifically testing something. And I mean, when you use a lot of old CrossFit Games workouts, a lot of times with the best in the world, that's what you have to do because it's really more about seeing if someone has a hole than it is just seeing who's the best at fitness sometimes.

And I acknowledge that for sure. Like on the women's side, it was extremely gymnastics bias last year after seeing it all play out after looking at the P score, after seeing the margins on like the pegboard and the handstand wall workout versus like the thruster and the flip sled workout when you're doing something like P score. When you have outliers, I mean, it really affects everyone's scores. So it's cool that you don't really know what's going to happen. But in some ways, it's not as cool It's cool that you don't really know what's gonna happen, but in some ways it's not as cool because I think the argument for a lot of people with P score is that, hey, if I'm watching a final event

and I don't know who's gonna win, if I can just look and say, does John beat JR if he does, then John wins and you don't really know. Yeah, that kind of makes it tough. But I would argue that's the only drawback though is you don't know what you have to do to beat somebody hopefully Tyler can get advanced enough where he can be like you need to beat him by 15 seconds like you know what I mean when there was a lot of pressure put on last year with a

back-to-back finale there is no back-to-back finale this year so going into the final event he'll you know heat to heat which will be heats of six people he'll have a good idea going into the final event, he'll, you know, heat to heat, which will be heats of six people. He'll have a good idea going into like the last two heats. Hey, could anyone possibly in like a fifth place position, could they just destroy this workout and jump these guys like stuff like that? So, yeah. Yeah. So getting into a NorCal classic, um, I apologize that I don't have the, uh, technological savvy to pull up this Instagram post. But if you go to their Instagram post, I'm going to let John kind of describe it, but

they post a teaser today. I was kind of wondering when they would put out any full events so that maybe we'd have something to talk about on this show for the next couple weeks. So at least we got something. Yeah. And I mean, we don't all we know is you have to do this complex. And then it's max and I'll say the complex after this. And then it's max kip ups. That's what we're referring it to drop kips. I think drop kips. I think that's what they're called drop kips. Yeah. Okay. And so the complex is a total bar, a pull up, a chest a bar, a bar muscle up, a pull over and then a reverse pull over, rollover.

I don't know if that has a turn, but I think you could just say like it's basically a bad whoa. What dad's here. Is this Will? No, it's not Will. NorCal Classic equipment list. Running and lifting shoes, grips, swimwearwear goggles a jump rope gloves sunglasses brightly colored swim cap no white and an optional life jacket So that's the equipment list of an orca classic John continue with your gymnastics complex means we're swimming

And then after that complex its max amount of drop kips Which is like if you're on top of the pull-up bar And then after that complex, it's max amount of drop kips, which is like if you're on top of the pull-up bar, your feet, you come underneath the pull-up bar and come right back up. And I think the standard is your feet have to be above the bar and then you go right back. Is that correct?

Sound correct, JR? Sounds correct, yeah. It looks like the arms extended at the bottom, right? With no requirement to have the feet at any height. It looks like is I think their feet have to be above the bar. You think they have to be above? Yeah. Well, you watch this girl she is. It's very, she's trying very hard to keep her feet above the bar. I've watched everybody do this complex and it's feet above the bar every time. So you have the rollover. So you have like the you have the pull over and then you have the reverse pull over and you have a front roll to support and then we have our drop kips. You see feet,

you see toes above the bar. And see like it's it's a diligent effort to keep those toes above the bar because you have to keep your, I mean that's the only way they could standardize it. Hey but she didn't start that at a minute dude. She wasn't on the bar for a minute before these started. She started that at 45 seconds but it's counting down right? I'm what I like I think it's going to be max amount in a minute and then you have a minute to rest So see it was 47 48 seconds like she could be on her fourth round and just didn't go at the minute mark That's true What I think it could be though Is some sort of ascending ladder where it's just the drop kips that ascend

So you have one one one one one and then you have one one one one two and then you have one one one one three. So she's coming down after the drop kips and just jumping back up. Until you can't do them anymore? Or until a certain number. So like let's just say you had to do ten rounds of the complex. So you would you would do a total of 55 drop kips, but you would only do 10 of every other movement. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Regardless, regardless what it is, it's, who's the best at drop kipping? Yeah, I don't know. And I was,

when I saw it, I was kind of hoping it was just a big troll. Like I was hoping they were just messing with everyone and they would would just see all the like I already saw Caroline, uh, prevo post, um, post the complex and doing it. I mean, I don't know. I, you see a lot of comments like Travis here says, uh, welcome to grid league. Like there's going to be a lot of people that, that think stuff like that after they see this complex. And yeah, I mean, it's something that I know me and Taylor have talked about a lot. It's something I know I've asked Sevan

because I think Tony Budding was the one that branched that off. Like, hey, are there movements in grid? For instance, a pistol box jump or a pistol jump over a PVC or a back roll to support where just because Tony brought that stuff to grid, Dave will never do like he has no interest in ever doing that stuff, even if he wanted to, because he's never going to be someone that says, Oh yeah, they just copied grid.

Yeah. I don't think we'll ever see the total bar butterfly like the double touch or the triple touch. Yes. I don't, I don't think we'll ever see that. I don't think we'll, I guess nobody's tried to do the butterfly muscle up. Is it against the rules to do that? I know if we had Tyler on the show, he would be, he would be a huge proponent of it because if, if, if it's just, if it's just hanging and then support position, what does it matter how you're getting there?

Do you know if it's against the rules to do a butterfly muscle up the way they do them? I think that it is against the rules. Okay, what's the standard? I think you have to change directions at the bottom of the rep is maybe how they, now I don't ever see it written in the standards, but they just kind of say, Hey, a traditional muscle

up is the only thing that you can do. Strict or kipping. So, I mean, technically the way we do muscle ups is not a traditional muscle up either. Sure. Yeah. Um, three day competition, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. We've got it here on the screen. Those of you that are listening and not watching, um, seven

30 to eight. So early day on Friday, maybe that swim is the first thing they do if they say long day on Friday, yeah. Saturday eight to six and then Sunday eight to five. So yeah, I'd be interested to know. I think last year, I believe they had what 10 or 12. There were a lot of scored events and I know Dave was involved in the programming last year, which was cool too. So they did like a 800 meter run. They had very classic simple grassroots crossfit workouts, but they also had some stuff like they had bar pullovers last year. They had a backwards handstand walk last year. They had a lot of things

that I think are a little bit off the wall. Yeah, I think some competitions, I mean, I know I am when I program stuff, I'm all about taking a couple risks and having it just be something that gets made fun of, if that's the case. I mean, how do you progress things forward if you're not gonna do stuff like that every now and then? And there's nothing wrong with just keeping it classic. But there are some stuff too that I think you can play with. There's a comment right here.

They did a double broad jump. I know that, I think they had a broad jump for distance in the qualifier Um, and a lot of us have talked about will we ever see a burpee broad jump or is that just a high rocks movement? You know, where are you on stuff like that? I think we could see a burpee broad jump. I I don't I don't think like and I know like if rogue programs something like they were we're probably won't see it at the games like Dave's again, you know, against like log muscle ups or something like that. We like stuff like that. We're like, well, that's probably not going to be in the games. And I think nothing is

off limits. I think people whatever you see in a competition, you're like, oh, I really liked what that looked like. I like the stimulus of that tested. I've never thought of that. And then you can put it. Why should that be off limits? You know, I think we should test fitness in every single aspect and every single way you can possibly imagine. And then I would like to stay away from gimmicky. Right? Like, like that would be my only caveat. Where's the where's the line for you? Because there is a there is a line somewhere. So when you talk about gimmicky, I think this gymnastics complex is gimmicky. Whenever it's not about fitness, and it's like, can you do it? I love workouts that are like, can you do it?

Who can do it? Right? And who can't do it? And who can? But it should be in a fitness do it and who can but it should be in a fitness environment not a that's it it's just can you do it like the gymnastics thing it's just who can do the glide kips that's it you know what i mean for instance if i'm a gymnast i'm not but if i'm a gymnast and i can beat taylor in this even though i'm so not as fit as him i think that's i think there should be a 400 meter run into the gym into that thing so it is can you do it but it's expressed in a fitness kind of a way. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, it does for sure and I and like I again, I'm not a Programming guru. I'm not like you. I'm not chase. I'm not no Dave at all I don't know or do I claim to be but I think if you're going to do workouts where it's

nor do I claim to be. But I think if you're going to do workouts where it's, it could be gimmicky, or it's can you do it, it needs to be expressed in a fitness way. Like it can't just be one thing. And then that's it. Like if the first time they did peg boards, the very first time they did peg boards in 2015, you know, there was a whole workout pegboard workout pegboard a section of it. And if instead of that it was, Hey, 15 pegboards for time, go and half of the field can't do it. Right. Yeah. Where it was placed. I think that's the very beginning of something is like the place where you put it basically. And right. But to where there's still stuff after, and then whoever can do it, guess what? You get to play. Now it's a workout and who is the fittest

that can do this thing? Right. Cross fat, what about wheelbarrows and sandbags gimmick? I say no. Oh, I love those. I love that. It's interesting too though, because not so much functional movement,

but when you talk about functional fitness, like doing yard work, a lot of people will say, yeah, I did a bunch of yard work today. And like my whoop was crazy the next day, but I didn't consider that a workout. Because you were just doing work, you were picking stuff up, you were putting it in something, you were carrying it over there, you were unloading it, you were walking back, you were putting more stuff in, you're carrying it back, you're unloading it. And then you have stuff like the GHD Medball Toss. I mean, you don't get more OG than that.

And they did that at the CrossFit Games. But there's articles and there's posts about, doing stuff like that, throwing specifically, being like a really, really important, facet of producing power. You look at the javelin, you look at the shot put, and that's when I think the lines get blurred. Like, what do we see at Rogue where we just say,

oh yeah, that looks like Highlands games type stuff. But then you cross over a line that says, no, they already do that at the Olympics. Why are we doing a hammer throw? You know what I mean? So, I don't know. Stuff like that is cool. Mason Mitchell ring handstand pushups.

For me, this is one of the things I wish that they would never do, but I found a really, stuff like that is cool. Mason Mitchell ring handstand pushups. For me, this is one of the things I wish that they would never do, but I found a really, really old interview that Dave did about programming, and he talks about the levels of certain movements, and he says, you have a handstand pushup with a wall supported, you have a handstand pushup without a wall, so freestanding, and then the highest level of the handstand push-up would be

doing them on a ring apparatus, you know, like on the high rings. I've skipped that middle section then because I can do the last one and I can't do the middle one. And I'm saying doing it on the rings without wrapping your feet around the straps. Oh, okay. You know what I mean? Like, sure, that would be the highest level, the hierarchy of the movement. And you take something like what Mason just said, like the ring handstand pushup, I'm not against that. It just can't be ruined by judging. You know, that workout was, I thought, really cool,

but ruined by the judges, because some judges would allow everything, and some judges were looking for your legs to never bend at all right in 2016 whenever they did the ring muscle up squat workout squat burpee workout right and like i think coles sager won that um and if it's if you just let them go like we all know what like like and just let them go with no judging at all. Obviously like for squatting depth sure but like for the ring handstand push-ups get up do it however you can but you have to come you got to touch the rings to shoulder and you got to be extended. Like a whole body has to be extended but you can do after that you can do whatever you want.

Yeah that was one of the movements that I mean you could go back and watch the footage of like Matt doing a rep getting it counted doing, doing another rep, make, and then the next rep was another rep. And it was like, why? It's the same thing. That's the only thing I thought was wrong. I don't think the movement was wrong itself. Sure. Justin Zumbo. J.R. how do you think they'll work the gymnastics complex into a test? I've got 15 plus athletes that'll be competing at the NCC. That's really cool that you have that many people. John, you go first and I'll tell you how I think they're going to work that in.

If that what we watched is actually going to be in a scored event, how do you think it's going to be presented? I think it's going to be just that and that's it, which I'm not a fan of I think I think it's going to be just that and that's it, which I'm not a fan of. But I think it's going to be one minute max kip ups, which so you do the whole complex complex is a buy in and then you have kip ups after it one minute max kip ups rest one minute, one minute max kip ups. And they just do that five times. And then you're going to

have like, you know, the winner will have like 30, right? And then the, and then it'll just go down like that. And then tie breaker will be how many kip ups you did in the first minute. Maybe the time goes more, goes less or however you want, but I think they're going to have a work on rest, work on rest. And then, um, it's just who has the most kip ups at the end of the rounds. So you just do that buy in,'s say what like five rounds of one minute on one minute off or something like that. Yeah yeah.

The score is max drop kids at the end. Yeah and maybe they go to two three maybe they work at like a two to three interval thing where and then it's or 50 kip ups for time. And like they- Every time you come off, you have to buy in. Yes. With the complex. Yes, yes. And then like you have a two, two, three interval style. I can see that as well.

That'd be cool. I think if I had to guess, I would, I would hope that it's one of like three single modality tests that are all worth like 33.3 points. So like kind of how they did a skills type thing back in the day. So maybe they do a weightlifting complex for total load and then they do something with a machine or a run and then they do the gymnastics. So it's like a, it's a one part of a three part scored event that's all a little bit niche in what it's testing. And then you're adding all three of those together

to get like a score for like a hundred points. I'd be a fan of that too, or even 50 points a piece. Yeah, I think that would be fine too. Especially if it was like a, if you did like, which I think would look cool if you did kind of a longer barbell complex with many different movements. Like let's say you did a barbell complex

and then the last movement was shoulder to overhead and you just had to go and go and go and get max reps with like 225 or something. And then you rested and you turn around into this gymnastics complex. Oh, five minute rest with like the gymnastics. That would be you know, how many total movements is it counting the drop kit? Did you count the movement? It's total bar pull up chest to bar bar muscle up, roll over, reverse roll over. Front roll to support. Yeah. And then kip up.

So eight? Yeah, yep. Gotcha. So yeah, like it didn't, you probably remember this. I don't know, maybe before your time. I wanna say comp train had a really, really, really long complex at one time. Do you remember what I'm talking about?

Marbel? Yeah. Was it cop train that put that out? Yes. It's called the beast builder. Okay. Yeah, that would be, that would be cool to pull up. Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. So who's, who's running the back end? I've done this really when they came out with it. It was like when I first was in the CrossFit. Yeah. And I got a video of me doing at 225 and it was like everything I had. You can just hold it up to the screen then.

Will it work like that? But yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking about is if you have like a eight movement barbell complex with max reps at the end of it for just one attempt and then maybe they did the same thing. But I don't know, man, here's the thing for me from a programming standpoint. All right, here we go. Hang squat clean.

This is it. Yeah, this is that complex. After we watch it, we're going to read it out for everyone that's listening really annoyed right now because they can't see what's going on on the screen. This is a video of John doing a really really long complex that I think was made popular by comp train back in the day. And uh, I want to say like you just do it for for load, right? Yeah, it's just who can who can do it with the it's a ton of like squat clean. It's just holding on to it. Right the grip is everything yeah this is back when I wasn't like super strong yeah we've seen

people do like bare complexes before in competitions for load questionable dropping it on your back stuff like that going to the back rack position all right the complex is over John so I got what it is yeah high hang squat clean so I guess that would be kind of hard to judge but I would just say bar cannot move from deadlift position You know like the top of the top of the thigh bar cannot move after that Plus hang squat clean plus squat clean three times over Okay Yeah, so that that one actually doesn't have a ton of different like if you did

Yeah, so that that one actually doesn't have a ton of different like if you did Deadlift hang power clean shoulder to overhead squat clean guys. This was five years ago. Okay, I Just discovered CrossFit. I didn't even know what I was doing. Okay, I'm pretty sure I could not run a mile at that time So calm down. I'll do that with 315 today just to make everybody feel bad okay leave me alone this is it this is an interesting idea that's a workout Taylor wouldn't beat me at fun fact you want to talk about that could you see them scoring it like toast a bar is a point pull-up is to chest bars three bar muscle is four back rolls five forward roll is six kip up is seven but it got to be unbroken complexes, but the first moves count.

So basically assigning an amount of points to each one. Maybe. I mean, that's just if they can't do it, right? Yeah, that way if you can't do one of the ones along the way, you can't get the big, you can't get the three pointers. You can only get free throws basically. It's like a basketball analogy with it. What I was going to say earlier about from a programming standpoint, if the only thing that matters

in the complex are the drop kips, you have used three really really really common hanging gymnastics movements in one event that don't really matter So what are you gonna do the rest of the competition climb the rope and that's it do stuff on the rings? And I think you can still have a total bar event But that that's just what I'm saying like if you're not wanting to repeat any of these movements you're using toes to bar Regular pull-up chest of our pull-up, chest to bar pull-up, and bar muscle-up. I think you just know that you're going to. You just accept that you're going to repeat. Yeah. You know, this is what it is. Ring muscle-ups? Yeah. You know, like you said, anything with a rope, ring muscle-ups, maybe you have a sled pull which I

know is like weightlifting but that's still some sort of pulling yeah and that again like we we don't have any information at all it's just a teaser so who knows how many events they're gonna do who knows how that one is gonna be incorporated into an event how they're gonna score it, how many more events they're gonna be, all that kind of stuff. But when I see something like this, like my mind immediately goes to what balances it out. So is there gonna be just a single modality monostructural event?

Is there gonna be one with weightlifting? You can pull up Mike's comment Poor boy look at last year's NorCal classic workouts They limit themselves highly by having so many divisions and only one stage with a rig They never program more than one event with gymnastics So that makes me think so I remember and Mike can correct me though. I remember some of the ones from last year I remember the like reverse Fran correct me, I remember some of the ones from last year. I remember the reverse Fran, and I wanna say maybe 115, or maybe originally it was 95 and they went up to 115.

I remember the pullover workout, and then I remember the Russian kettlebell swing rope climb workout. So I guess that's, those are the three hanging slash pulling movements that I remember But that is an interesting point if they if they only have one rig when they have a ton of divisions how many? How many events are they gonna have with hanging gymnastics? To

Yeah, maybe so how is uh, I saw a post you sound a lot of JY Barbell shirts. Yeah, yeah, a decent amount. I don't know really how many my wife knows, but that's cool. They're still at my house. So I still does the who does like the business plan type stuff for JY Barbells. How do you and your wife? How do you mean? Well, if you have a business, but you don't have a plan, you're just planning to fail, right? If that's you and that's the case, you need to reach out to Corey Pulido,

Proven Business Plans right down. Right there. Here. A lot of us own businesses, a lot of us have no idea how to progress them. We have no idea how to tier cost options like anywhere from a hey, you buy this JY Barbell shirt. This is the exclusive one. It's going to cost you $32. This other one's

going to cost you $25. We all want our businesses to grow, but we really don't know how to sometimes get them off the ground or keep them up with the times as there's always competitive businesses in the space. Reach out to Corey, proven business plans, he'll hook you up. Whatever you need, I know I need to reach out to him. He's reached out to me specifically and just said,

hey dude, what's some things that crashed that you want to have improved upon? And it could be anything. It's not really something I think about. you how good with business owner I am. Yeah, I need to reach out to them too, because I just buy way too many shirts and then just wait till I sell them all and then and then buy way too many shirts. That sounds exactly like what I do with my yeah, shut out vindicate. Yeah, he's he's very happy to to have someone that makes poor decisions like that, who will be at crash crucible

By the way, Travis will be here in the house as well as gave from paper street coffee Yeah, we'll have a lot of people in the house hanging out. I'll also be there John Young will also be there doing the broadcast live with Bill Grundler Which is I'll bring all of my JY barf John will John will do his best to steer people away from Travis's tent and to just sell his own, pedal his own goods like only you would imagine John Young doing.

Shout out to another sponsor, one of the originals, HGRCBD Athletics. If, Carl, I apologize, if I had any sort of idea what I'm doing on the back end, I would play Taylor's Taylor's commercial, but we've got a lot of good feedback from all of his products. The stuff really does work. I know Taylor's been training really, really hard. Big proponent of his stuff.

His knees been great. State Farm, Patrick Mitrovich, recent sponsor of Kill Tailor, another one who's kinda was the pioneer as far as supporting the show. South Carolina, Georgia, North Carolina, basically anywhere in the Southeast. If you need any kind of insurance, hit them up. Okay, what else? I posted on the Shut Up and Scribble story,

again, because I don't really know how to engage with the audience. I just posted a simple question. I don't know if you saw it or not. It was like, how many people should program the CrossFit games? How many people should program it? And if so, how many and kind of how should it go? And a lot of people, it seemed like it's a topic that a lot of people feel strongly about. Some people just said Dave Castro, period. Some people said strongly about. Some people just said, Dave Castro, period. Some people said a committee.

Some people said two to three people max. So where do you like, that's a hot topic right now. You know, what's gonna happen next year? And if the programmer changes, who should it change to? And what's the right way to do it? We've only ever known one way. We've known that Dave does it with feedback and then we know that Boz did it with feedback.

And Boz was pretty adamant about saying, hey, there's been a lot more collaboration over the years than people think. And then even he said when he programmed it, hey, me and the team, he would say that a lot. Hey, me and the team, I would give them ideas, they would push back, I would give them ideas, they would push back, I would send them something they would send back,

you know, this is what we see that could go wrong with it. So apparently there's always been a head programmer with a kind of team that has, you know, provided whatever kind of feedback criticism. I'd like to be a part of this team. That would be that would be a Yeah, well, I want to know the names of this team and then how do you get on the team? Can you can you imagine so so I'm just thinking so like what if

What if what if it was a boss and Dave they both work together If you don't if we don't if we don't think we can do it with Dave because Dave has an ego Then boss and somebody else two people, okay. I personally think it should be two to three people. But like, they're all on the same sphere of equality, I guess you could say like, like neither one is like, I'm the head guy. You know what I mean? Like, we're all on the same team. We're trying to get the

same the best product out there. It's not like one overwhelming the other. And I we don't know we don't know at all. But you know, Dave does have the persona like if it's him and boss working together. We all kind of think it's Dave still running the show. Do we not? Uh, you know what I'm saying? I think a lot of people a lot of people do think that I'm probably one of the I don't know, I'm probably one of the

more optimistic people out there that say, Hey, like, if it's collaborative, then it's collaborative. If it's not collaborative, they would just say, Hey, no, I do everything that I want to do. And no matter who pushes back, I don't change anything. I would love to know and this is kind of getting into the weeds, but like Boz said the first year before the games, he's like, hey, there's a lot of things I'm looking forward to that like I've had that I've wanted to do for years, but it just hasn't really worked out

with the programming. Which means Dave Tedges, no. Like, well how many years do you think he was like, hey dude, P-bars, come on, stay with me, P-bars, they were in the first CrossFit gym, you could use them for this, you could use them for this, you could use them for this. There's this Elizabeth workout that I want to do that like, I mean, can, like how long do you think maybe he was like, Dave, P-bars, I'm telling you, Like how long do you think maybe he was like Dave P bars? I'm telling you like how long do you think that happened? Like before he just got his chance to do what he wanted to do or if it was just something that came to him a month before. I don't know.

I don't know. I would love to know stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah, he needs to come out with the memoir and just spill everything that has ever happened everything that's ever happened with making the cross-fit games and programming and just let us know the insight. I mean, that'd be cool if both of them were on and was like, hey, chaos, the idea for

chaos, how long did I tell you we should do this? And you were like, no, we can't do it. We can't do it. Right. Stuff like that would be really cool. I mean, Dave, if you want to write a second book and put all that stuff in the book, do it. I know I'll buy it. Geeks like me will buy it.

I would say two to three. I'm not gonna, I don't care who, but like two to three. And then no team. It's just those two to three guys. And then like, and I'm like, but like a serious combined effort where like, if one of the guys is like, no, I want to do this like this is going to be great. Just just please trust me on it. Then the other guy's like, all right, I'm going? Like, but if his event is the double crossover event, and then Dave has free leeway,

just how we like get on each other, you know, when I said, I think 300 reps will happen in the first quarter final workout, and everybody's like, you're retarded. I was retarded, right? But like, just like that, when double crossover workout comes out, Dave can go like, like see I told you Adrian

that was retarded right and like but but but it's transparent that would be and that would be really cool like like imagine imagine me and Taylor program a competition together and we're there watching it we were not involved with running it. We're just there watching it. And before the event, Taylor's like, I told JR this was gonna be a bad idea and I'm just really hoping that I was wrong. And then, you know, something doesn't pan out and he's like, I told you, and he looks over and like people could actually see

that initial reaction to it, or maybe the embarrassment on my end to be like, yeah, you're right. I shouldn't have done that. I think people want to know who programs competitions, but what they don't get a lot of times is what thought went into that. And then after the fact, do they regret doing what they did? Yeah, either the satisfaction or the regret. Can you imagine if, for instance instance Elizabeth elevated and then you have Pat Velner have that have his Gymnastics moment right and then the whole crowd is celebrating and then you get a picture of you get seven over there with his camera And he's showing boss just looking at Dave like I told you right right like like just talking trash to each other

Almost like it's a team, but it's like how you would do with your boys, you know? Sure, yeah, it's a good point from Larry. Do you not think if it's always the same person, their biases will always show up so the same people can win? I think a lot of people would just blindly say, ah, the fittest is gonna win anyway,

but we've talked about before. We've been bailed out. It's not all about who wins. It is about, I mean, there are a lot of people whose jobs are to fitness race. So who finishes in the top 10 and what that top 10 is is dramatically affected by the programming, for sure. And I think we've talked about it, we beat it to death,

I don't think we need to anymore, but this year is a pretty clear product of that. We know it wasn't the full test that we got to see everyone do, but we've broken it down and we kinda know where it looked like it, it lended its hand to people of specific skill sets. So yeah, I think it really does matter. Maybe not who wins always,

or maybe who even gets the podium just because they're the best, but who is in that top 10 right under that top three, it definitely matters. For the record, I'm not saying like it has to be Dave and Boss. I would just say two to three people, but with that transparent lens. And then if it is just one person who has a team, I would like to be on the team.

Yeah. I think there's no reason you should not be on the team. There's no reason like, like there, there are, I think there's lots of people out there that can write good workouts. Like as a blanket statement, I think there are a lot of people. Then we had, we just had this games. So there's a lot of people. All of those people are terrible, are terrible then. There's a lot of people out there that can write good workouts. That doesn't mean that they can put 10 or 12 of them together and then say, yep, this is going to show who the fittest fittest on earth is. That's a really important distinction.

Cause I do, there's a lot of like, I mean, I look at it way more than I'm sure I should, but there are a lot of people out there that write cool workouts. And there are a lot of people that I would say are good programmers. Programming for someone to get better is one thing. Programming for a gym is a completely different skill.

Programming for a competitive general blog program is a different skill. Programming for a competition is a different skill. Programming for a high level competition is a different skill in that because it does, programming a beginners or like a older masters level competition is completely different than programming

for CrossFit Games athletes. So I think a lot of times when someone says that, oh yeah, they're a really good programmer. Oh yeah, they're a terrible programmer. Like it depends on what they're doing and what the goal of it is supposed to be be and programming for the CrossFit Games is it is serious and it is important where I kind of fall on it and I asked a couple people this question do you think the people who are on this team should know who the other people

are because I don't I think best- case scenario would be, you know, a few people, I would say five at the absolute most, but probably more like three. But you don't know who they are. So when we communicate, I don't know that he thinks that I program too much squatting because what I think would happen if you have people that know each other that are friends or that even are like hey I respect that person you probably aren't gonna be as honest and critical as you would be with someone you have no relationship with at all you're just saying I'm looking at these combinations of movements and numbers on a sheet of paper and I have no relationship with at all. You're just saying I'm looking at these combinations of movements and numbers on a sheet of paper and I have no idea who wrote them, but programmer a sent them to me and told me to pick them apart. So that's what I'm going to do. Like I think you probably couldn't do it, but I think doing it in an anonymous way where even

you don't even know until hey after the games these were the people that that programmed it you know and like that's not you know that that would never happen but I why why why could that not happen I don't I just don't I don't think it could ever happen why because people get their feelings hurt uh because programmers see is the worst programmer I've ever seen and that was Castro Yeah, I think you I guess you could do it Especially if that's their sole job and responsibility day in and day out is like my only job is programming the CrossFit game season I got a question for you. Do you think do you think it's the same team?

2015 through 2018 as it was in 2024. I think there are some people that have been on like the programming side and you could just say people that are in the know or just like consulted with just say consultants from within CrossFit or within the CrossFit Games that have been consistent for a really long time. I don't see how that's possible when you have this year compared to the years of old. So what do you think it stopped? I don't this year.

I mean, I think boss had a different team than Dave did. And like, I think 2015 through 2018, we could really throw a 2014, if we're just talking programming, 2013 through 2018, I think were the greatest CrossFit program games years. 2013 through 2018, all of them. And they all had their biases. 2015 was a beat down. Like it was probably too much of a beat down. Right. But if it was a Murph heavy DT

and squat clean pyramid in the same day. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe maybe outside of day one with the crit marathon row total, maybe outside of that day, probably the hardest. I'd rather do that. I'd rather do that day than 2015. I think the first day of 2018 would have less effect on my body, even with the marathon row than 2015, that day of 2015. That squat clean pyramid, Murph, and heavy DT,

those three workouts in that one day, I think I'm rocked for a week, like I think I'm done. But if you look at the whole programming as a total, like you were saying before, as far as like, is it a balanced test that this find the fittest person? I'm like through the top 10 even, I would say yes, like yes, some years are more of a beat down than others. Some years are more squatting than others. 2018 was more pulling than others, but it wasn't like to an egregious level and it tested everything. There was everything, everything that you could test, it was tested in some way or fashion. And 2024, in my opinion, was the worst programmed CrossFit games

for the level of competitor of all time. 2007 was a balanced test. It's three events, nobody knows what they're doing, but it was a balanced test. 2008, probably the second worst. 2009, it was just kind of like killing everybody. But as you agree or disagree for the level of competitor where we are at in our fitness, right, as a sport was 2024. Do I have to assume that nothing was modified? So could you can throw Amanda in the sledgehammer and the tin that they did no no no with Amanda and no no

I know but what I'm saying is the tin that they did were not altered at all I can just assume that if they were it makes it worse because they should have been altered more yeah I think it was I was a clearly biased just to monostructure I I think that's the easiest way that I can say it. Like I don't need to get every single year there's been. I would have to go back and look. I actually I don't off the top of your head. I think it're all kind of pretty present at the moment. I remember every year. Every year. It's not. Go research. I bet if, I bet if, I bet if, maybe we can do that. Go back and look at each year and just say, hey, this, this was more upper body press dominant than 2024 was aerobic dominant. Like we might have had this argument with Barclay, and I 100% every, like, different years have different biases.

There's never been a more biased one than this year. And what I'm saying is, if there was a team, then that team is not great. If it went through 10 people, I'm all good with like, Dave just kind of had a bad year. It was kind of an off year. It was not great, right? I'm fine with saying that. But if it went through 10 people, then they were all signed off on this is a great balance test. That's a problem. I really do. I see what you're saying. So if there was a team that was consulted with closely and it wasn't just like, Hey, here's my plan. Like, let me know if there's anything you see on here from a flow standpoint. I don't want to know what you think from a programming standpoint,

then you don't think that team really did their job. That's, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying that's like already, already it's a not the best day programming for Dave. And like, I know when people go like, Oh, we need to fire Dave. I'm not saying that he did 2017 to he did 2018. He did all the years that we think are great. He programmed those years too. So I just think it was a bad programming year for him. But if you if you ask people, that's bad. Right? Yeah,

if you ask, like a lot of the really, really high level competitors who are around some of those 15, 16 years, they're, they're all pretty consistent in saying, like generally the programming has been really good. And yeah, there were some every year is hard, but like, you know, he's got an over 90% track record of doing a really good job. There were some misses. There were some individual events that didn't really maybe work out the way that he wanted them to. But that's going to happen if you program for that many years. What I always said about Boz is that I kind of wish we would have gotten like six or eight years. A box. Because I know that the stuff early on with Dave, the lessons he learned, there was no point of comparison. So people just were like,

ah, the stake into the ground with the rower was kind of weird because you don't know if you got soft ground or not soft ground. You know, and then it was like, okay, maybe I should come up with something like the banger that we can use that is a hammer. I think let's just leave the sledgehammer out of it. Sure, but I'm just, I'm using that as an example

where it's like, there was some, there was some, the learning curve there was a lot more, maybe not, it wasn't as steep and it wasn't as noticeable from a spectator standpoint. There weren't people that consider themselves CrossFit nerds back then to pick it apart. Because Dave was by far the more, he was just as knowledgeable or more knowledgeable

than everyone else so it's like oh this is what we're doing okay cool yeah these are cool workouts without being able to look at it and say but are they really cool because three out of the whatever have this movement pattern and like you know we we all kind of pick it apart but I wish we would have gotten four or five or six years from Boz and then look at it and say, Oh yeah, well, there were a few events here and there that maybe, maybe there were a reach, but really if you look over the years, it's been whatever, you know, I think one or two years of anyone doing anything like the first two years at cruciblecible if you just look at two

competitions then you draw all sorts of conclusions but you can you get to the fifth year or the sixth year the seventh year then you can say hey there are some themes here there are some things that JRL likes the program but then you know what this year they did all this stuff and you didn't see it again for three more years because that's where we're at with Dave. Like pegboard, pegboard, pegboard, and then it goes away. Or, you know, thick rope, where did it go? And then years later it comes back and then years later we're still waiting for it to come back.

You know, so there's some of that kind of stuff that I think we don't get. But I think a lot of people are clamoring for a change even when it comes to the programming. And it'll be interesting to see if that happens and if it does Is it one person or is it like by committee? Which would you rather? I'd rather it be a group of people and no one know I'm so clean sweet. Oh

Oh if it had to change. I don't know if the, the programming itself, I mean, I think best case scenario, Dave would still program it, but like he would have a few people that are what you're describing that are people really, really intelligent and good that will not back down because they don't have that loyalty and relationship with him to say, Hey dude,

you have no single leg movement at all. You need to put lunges or step ups in. Remember last year Dave? And you just continue to say, no, no, no, no. There's too much pulling, there's not enough pressing. Or you need to say, hey, you have nothing but light squatting. Where's the heavy squatting? Hey, you have nothing but heavy hinging. Where's the light hinging? I think you need that and you need to have someone that can say, no, here's the data. If you want it to be biased, go for it. But if you're telling me your goal is the complete test, then listen to what I'm saying.

I just don't know if that might just be wistful thinking. I don't think there's going to be people that are going to say that to him. But I, but I don't, I mean, I don't know Dave at all. I mean, I've, I've been around him that one time at semi finals. He doesn't know me. I don't, I don't think if you presented him with, you know, really simple concrete, like here are the facts that he would just say whatever I don't

care what you think you're wrong but maybe so bro I think you yeah the thing is everyone's gonna have their biases and it's it's a it's a whole different conversation but people are okay people are okay with rogue, Wadapalooza, Dubai, beach brawl, Crash Crucible. As they should be. They're okay with them being like golf tournaments. Like, hey, you know when you go to Crucible, you're probably gonna have to do more high skill stuff.

It's gonna be a little funky. You know when you go to Rogue, you're probably gonna have a strongman feel. People are so cool with the, with that, but then they're, they're not cool with it at the games. I don't think they should be. Yeah. It's the super bowl. I don't, but I don't, but I don't think you're, you're ever, I think you're always going to be able to find a bias somewhere. That's what I'm saying. I think it's OK to have a bias, but like it should still be you. There should be nobody that that is saying this person won because of this bias. Like if it's biased enough where some where somebody's like you think this person won because of this bias,

then it was a failure on your part. That's what I believe. Now this person could get third place because of the bias. Sure. But if somebody won, if the unanimous thought is somebody won because of the bias of the programming, I think it's a failure on your part. somebody won because of the bias of the programming, I think it's a failure on your part. Now if there were two more squatting events, if there were two more squatting events and

then you had Amanda and James still won, then guess what? I'm going to say James is going to be top five next year and not think anything of it because James improved that much. But we didn't see that. You know what I'm saying? You almost take away from those people. Yeah, it's an unfortunate situation all the way around. But you see what I'm saying? I would love if like, who's to say James wouldn't still win? But we don't know. We don't know you know, and he probably wouldn't but we can't Like that's the problem we have now and I think if that is the case

you've failed as a programmer and what's funny is Imagined if Tia wasn't there Then Gabby McGowan is the fittest woman in the world. We're thinking the same thing I know it's a little bit different with the women, but I honestly think she still would have been second had all the women participated because of what the events were. Right.

Even if Laura was there, I'm telling the people right now, this would have been Laura's worst CrossFit games. Her worst one. You think so? Yeah, I think she'd be like sixth place in this CrossFit games. You worst one. Yeah, I think she'd be like sixth place in this crossfit games. Every you think about every event she is so good because she's got six or seven events where nobody can touch her. Not even Tia. Nobody can touch her. And then but then she's got six or seven events where she's 10th place. Right? Still good. You know, let's say fifth through 10th, right?

Still good. Still great. But like, you know, there are women better. Every single event except the clean ladder would have been a fifth or 10th place. She's not touching Gabby, because Gabby runs better. I think she would have done great on Chad. You don't think so? Laura on Chad, Chad's a toss up.

I don't know. It's hard to say. Would you have said Austin would have done great on Chad, Chad's a toss-up. I don't know. It's hard to say. Would you have said Austin would have done great on Chad? I think Laura would have done great on the last two. I don't think she's top three in the last two. I think she would have been good but I don't think she's top three. What really does suck is that we'll never know. Right. It's tough. It does. But hey, here's the, something interesting. Are athletes, their coaches and pundits

going to think rogue means more in 2024 than the CrossFit Games? They shouldn't. Said will they? Is is rogue going to be people's CrossFit Games this year? year. Not not not just not just for like bragging rights but just for being able to just compare the competition. Like yeah that guy's the best. You know yeah I mean I just think it's something that's coming and people aren't you know we're gonna get there and people are gonna say you know know, I hold when you say, okay, okay. So as far as pundits go, are we putting ourselves in that? Yeah, I would say we're at, at best we're, we're pundits. Okay. Um, at worst, what are we

chumps? Nobody's. Okay. I would say it's not going to affect me at all. You're just gonna say that box is the games box. This box is Rogue and I don't even. I already have my thoughts on the games next year and then that will be influenced by semi-finals. It'll be influenced by Rogue a little bit, but like I already know. I pretty much I know where I'm gonna put James at. It'll be influenced by rogue a little bit, but like I already know. I pretty much I'm going to I know where I'm going to put James at.

Pretty much. I know where I'm going to put down at pretty well. You know where I'm going to put Hopper at. That would influence it a lot, Jacob. If OK, yeah, that's a great question. If James won rogue. Then that would influence me a lot, but. It would take something like that to influence me, honestly. It would influence you, but it would have to influence you with the program you want to see at Rogue. That's the thing.

No, I know, no, no. I know what I'm going to get at Rogue, though. You think you know. You thought you knew what you're going to get at the games. If Rogue turns in the High Rocks 2.0 as well, then then I'm gonna, then my stance will change to what it is now. If someone would have came to you and said James Bragg is gonna win the CrossFit Games, your response would be, would have been the programming will have to be blah blah blah. Yeah. So you would say the same thing if someone says what if James won Rogue. You would just, you wouldn't just say James has the fitness. You would just say, well, it wouldn't be what, what we're typically used to at rogue.

I, I, that's exactly what I would say. But then if, I mean, honestly though, if he, if he did, you know, if he wins the games and he wins rogue, then maybe I need to check my bias because like that's, it's hard to say anything against that. You know what I mean? I probably wouldn't pick him to win the game still in 2025, but I bet you I put him on the podium just because bro, like nobody's beaten him. You know what I mean?

If he were to do that, regardless of the programming, regardless of the programming, I'd be like, God, I mean, I think rogue is more impossible than the games For for somebody like James Um, I mean I obviously I'm always excited about the next competition But I'm really excited to see what kind of stuff they do With a new venue. We know it's indoors We plenty of time to talk about stuff like that.

I'll be interested to see how the venue affects the event. Rogue buys CrossFit, Speeler and Bridges program the games. A lot of people wouldn't mind Rogue buying CrossFit at all. I don't think they're going to though. So they would have already they could have already. Speaking of OGs like Speeler and Bridges, Pat Barber, the manimal owner of the knowledge right here in the middle of the bottom of the screen. Recent sponsor of the show, he's got like a coaching coaches type deal where he's actually working with Taylor specifically to help Taylor try to get his level four,

which is a really, really cool credential that Taylor's going after for all the stuff that Taylor says for all the things that he might not say. No one loves CrossFit more than that dude. And he's really passionate about his coaching. Not only like in-person coaching at CrossFit Charlotte, but also like coaching remotely. So Pat's helping him out.

He's now supporting the show. So if you are a coach and you have aspirations of, you know, just being better at your daily, like running a class of five people, 10 people, 20 people reach out to Pat with the knowledge. And then lastly, Brooks Manley Marketing. This guy's like a search optimization wizard web design. I need to do that right there, right there at the bottom.

You can hit them up on Instagram, you can look them up online. Taylor speaks really, really highly of his knowledge and just like getting all things, your business, more professional, you know, when anyone punches in CrossFit, when anyone punches in fitness, obviously if they're in the Spartanburg area, I want them to come across crash first.

And that's the kind of stuff Brooks does to make sure that you are optimizing your business online. Dude, we had Pat Barber on the live show when we were at the games. Oh, okay. And he was on during the swim event and I felt so bad for him. Did you? The live show, when we were at the games. Oh, okay. And he was on during the swim event and I felt so bad for him. Like it was... I didn't, I did not know that.

Yeah, like, like we're like, hey, we need you to go because we think something serious has happened. And it was, there was a very like awkward, like five minutes with him on the show. Sure. And then we never talked to him again. So I was like, poor Pat. Yeah, there was a very like awkward like five minutes with him on the show Sure, and then we never talked to him again. So Poor pat Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, I remember taylor was supposed to go on best hour of their day podcast. I think that day Yeah, that day. Yeah. Yeah, it's like hey, I guess it's not happening anymore. So

Um, no, it's been cool, dude. Thanks our show taylor's gonna give me crap because I never stay on for an hour and uh That's been cool, dude. Thanks. Our show. Taylor's gonna give me crap because I never stay on for an hour. And he's gonna be like, what happens John comes on and you don't want to get off but you always tell me at 40 minutes you have to pick up your kid. My wife picks up my kid on Fridays. Shout out to Rebecca. And yeah, thanks for jumping on dude. Sentinel training. John, if you could. Sentinel training, if you could point. There we go. Free trial, you can scan that QR code. Master's programming, 60 minute track, competitor track. Really, really good bang for your buck.

Crash Cruisable is happening October 11th through the 13th. Like I mentioned earlier, John and Bill will be live doing commentary. Will will set up the stream. Hopefully, Susa will be here. Just running off of nothing but chocolate cake, just in every lane, cameras in people's faces. Really, really excited about it. HWPO is the title sponsor.

So, I mean, we're increasing prize purse this year, we're doing money for event wins for not only individuals, but also masters. Colton's about to mop up. That's what he saw that he was like, let's, let's go. Doing a doing a go odd recovery zone, which will be only accessible for like athletes and media. So right after they get done, they'll kind of go into a little private space where the only athletes can access it for like, you know, bikers, cool downs, dolmer mats, roll out, stuff like that, cold plunges, that kind of thing. So really excited about it.

It'll be here before you know it. I think me and Hopper are supposed to do like a makeshift high rocks at crash I've not been told any of this. Yeah. No, I mean it's not an event or anything We're just gonna one morning before the you know before the show or whatever You can you can literally do the exact same workout. We've done it before Yeah, that's what that's what we're gonna do. I'm gonna make out a thousand meters and then I'm you know That's what we're gonna do. Yeah'm gonna make out a thousand meters and then I'm you know that's what we're gonna do. Yeah that'll be fun. Alright guys thanks for watching. Comment is that what I'm supposed to tell people to do? Like and subscribe. Like to the 7-Eleven podcast. Mm-hmm.

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