The Sevan Podcast - Shut Up & Scribble // Repeating workouts and bench marks

Episode Date: December 29, 2024

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Wham, wham. Where is, what am I? Oh, here we go. They changed it. Media assets, they changed it. Sorry. I'm trying to find. And we're live everybody.

Welcome to Shut Up and Scribble. Taylor Self, J.R. Howell, we are professionals, clearly. I don't even know what Taylor's looking for. Still man, still man, I'm trying to find... Trying to find the right overlay? No, I'm trying to find some music in there. Change it to 7-1's. I know, but I can't find...

the music. Pornhub intro? Wow. Uh... ["The Star-Spangled Banner"] Okay, okay, I can't find what I'm looking for, so anyways. Blalalalala. Alright, so what I wanted to talk about today was something that I'm pretty passionate about. And I didn't even realize I was until me and Andy were doing some programming for the gym.

So you guys got into an argument? No, we didn't get into an argument. I just like, it's a, you know, everybody loves to say, oh, the most performed workout on main sites, the 5k run. And I'm thinking to myself, let's say they program a 5k three times a year. At best two of those times, it's getting an honest effort at best. Do you know what I mean? The third time, not at best one of those times.

Right. That's what I'm thinking. Um, and I, and I just feel like there is a margin of diminishing returns for repeating and retesting. And I do not like the idea of redoing a workout just to redo it. I think if you're going to, you know, say in my opinion, if you're going to do a workout with the intent of repeating it at a date later in time to measure your improvement or lack thereof, great. You do the workout for the first time ever, three, four, five months later, you do it again.

If I do it one time, I know I can give it great intensity. And the next time I know that I can probably improve it, I do it that second time. And I feel like most of the time I'm gonna improve that effort. I do it a third time, then it's 50-50. 50-50, I'm like, okay, I learned something about the workout or I've actually gotten fitter,

I can improve a little more or I get halfway through it. I'm like, fuck this, I've done it two times. This workout sucks. You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm, geez, I may lose, I may lose tens of subscribers next Wednesday by saying this. So that's what I'm hoping to get, tens of subscribers.

But I'm way on the side of the spectrum that I don't like test retest. And maybe that means that I'm not doing three of the observable, measurable, repeatable. But I think unless the workout has more to it than just a single modality thing, I don't think it always stands as something you can use for a fitness check-in, which is what a lot of people do.

A lot of people retest the workout because they want to see improvement over time or because at a certain age you can't expect to get faster, you can't expect to get fitter and you're just trying to maintain. That's great. But to me, something like a 5K run, something like a 2k row where it always holds up as a good workout. We're not talking about if it's a good workout or not. Plenty of stuff is a good workout. Is it a good barometer of fitness?

I'm kind of in the camp that like, you should probably like at this point, if I'm going to tell someone, hey, you want to see where your fitness is at, do this workout. It's probably an MWG. one, hey, you want to see where your fitness is at do this workout, it's probably an MWG, it's probably a workout with all three things in it, where, hey, over time, maybe your gymnastics slips a little bit, but maybe over time, your monostructural, your your base capacity improves, or maybe over time, you get weaker, but you get better at the bodyweight stuff. Yeah, or whatever. I think there needs to be a little bit more to it than

just like a single modality. I agree. I, you know, to check little bit more to it than just like a single modality. I agree. I, you know, to check overall fitness. If you're just trying to measure, okay, have I improved my 5K? Great. I agree though. I err on the side of not repeating

because for me, when I started CrossFit, I was so burned out on just doing the same shit all the time. And I loved the, the okay every damn in there I do something new and it excites me and if I am having fun and I'm excited and I'm a little nervous about a workout or I'm like oh I'm not sure how this is gonna go there's odds of me getting great intensity or much higher than if it's okay I've done this what was that power snatch bar facing burpee 2018 regional workout? It was like

10 snatches, 12 bar facing burpees for two rounds. And then you do it again and the weight gets lighter. I did that workout like three times in a, in a one month span. And by the third time, I was two minutes slower because I was like, I just know how bad this workout hurts. I don't even want to do it. Um, and, and I just don't like that. I also think that, and this is a hill that I will probably die on, and that is, I really believe that all facets of being a trainer, whether that's your ability to teach, see and correct, give good cues, et cetera,

whether that's your ability to lift the general mood and energy of a group class, whether that's your ability to write a workout that gets the desired stimulus and improves your client's fitness over a period of time. I think all of those things are important. And I hate the notion that, you know, oh, workout's a workout.

I just don't agree with that. It is a massive element to getting fitter. And I think often overlooked by people who are too, whatever centric within their repertoire of being a coach, programmer, trainer, whatever. coach, programmer, trainer, whatever. So that is all to say, why would I program a 5K four times in a year? Like at some point in time, my clients are just saying, I'm not showing up on a 5K day, or I show up, I'm just gonna run,

or I'm gonna row, sorry, I'm not gonna run. So that just defeats the entire purpose. And it's almost lazy on my part, instead of giving them the easiest opportunity ever to get intensity. So, okay, let's say I give one 5K, and then let's say the next time I do 400 meter repeats or I do every 10 minutes for three rounds, one mile run or whatever. I mean, there's infinite ways with CrossFit to get that stimulus, but make it easy on

your clients to get intensity and have fun. And that's a big, that's a big one for me. I do not like repeating workouts just repeating. Helen's another one. Like, hey, how many times can you do Helen and go sub eight before you're like, fuck, that just hurts. I don't want to do it. Yeah. And I agree with you where I think you would have a lot of people push back on you is that you can go sub eight on Helen and you can continue to do it. But for a lot of people, like breaking 11 and then breaking 10

and then breaking nine 30 and then breaking nine 15 and then breaking nine, like you can do that over the years and people can still see improvement in their fitness. So I think a big problem with it sometimes is the fitter you get, the harder it is to get fitter. So in a workout like that, that's predicated on just being able to run a little bit faster once you can do the other movements unbroken, which predicated on just being able to run a little bit faster

once you can do the other movements unbroken, which a lot of people are able to do. And is there a whole lot to, you know what, I got seven seconds slower on Helen. Gosh, I'm less fit. Well, maybe the last time you did it is March and now it's December, or maybe the last time you did it, it was at the end of the training week. And this time that you did it, it was at the beginning of the training week

and you're never as good after an off day. Like there's so many little factors that can contribute to a minimal difference in time that I'm with you. I don't think you always need to make things longer. You always need to make things heavier. You always need to make things heavier. You always need to make things higher skill level. But we're at a point where, geez, we're almost 25 years into this thing.

Some original benchmarks do not hold up anymore. They really don't. And I think a lot of times they should be used for a beginner population. And then at some point, you need to just say hey guys we're doing Helen today if you have done Helen in this time this is your workout and it's just it's just it's just a little bit different where hey it's still scaling sure but it's scaling up so that way Taylor is gonna feel the

same way that Betty's gonna feel doing it in 15 minutes. Like it's all relative. And I think that part is missed a lot. It's really easy for the lazy trainer to just say, cool. It's easy to go on broken, show me and go faster. You can only use that for so long. And then just hold up anymore. Right, I agree.

There's the, oh, you don't need a harder workout, go harder in your workout. That's, it is true for most people, I would say, but there's a larger subset. I think there is a large enough subset of people that rather than going five seconds faster on Helen, they'd get a much better stimulus that created greater adaptation in their fitness by doing a workout with chest to bar or even bar muscle ups and going a minute slower than the hell in time, they would stay would get a way better stimulus

and have more adaptation. So I'm pretty big on that. I wanna, I have to address this elephant in the room. Christian Kettler, Taylor, did you see Mayhem copying KT, beat Austin Halfield and win $200? First off, they're not copying Kil Taylor. They can never do that. Cause none of the athletes at Mayhem have the balls to do a workout live, one, and then allow anyone in the

world to call in to beat them, two. Second off, they're not giving away $200. They're giving away a gift card. That's not cash. That's like, okay, you can have $200, but you have to buy fucking buffalo brew coffee and mayhem bison sticks. Come on, that's fucking gay. And third off- Christian, I'll take a look after the third point, I'll take a little different approach and just say, imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

And I think that's just where you- Yeah, but they should do it live, actually imitate it. Come on, that's fucking dumb. Send us a video and blah, video and blah blah. No do a live show with him doing the workout live No balls, no stones Maybe colton can beat him It's a cute workout Here we go greg repeated workouts dave repeats workouts the the game repeats workouts, repeating is fine, repeating too much is not fine. Yeah, I mean, I think that's what we're saying.

But also you have to note that Dave has done many, many, many of workouts that he scales up. Awful Annie, the 2020 games workouts, 2007 reload. There's oftentimes he does a previous workout and he makes it harder because he can acknowledge, hey, this test doesn't really hold up for the field anymore. Yeah, and it's, it's, um, it's a slippery slope. When you say, well, we should just always do that because you shouldn't. And um, they're like, I think, I think all of the 2020, I mean, that'd be five years

this year. I think all of the 2020, I mean, that'll be five years this year. I think all of the 2020 online games, I think most of the previous CrossFit Games events, especially if maybe you start with 2013, a lot of those still hold up. Like you could do, like for instance, let's take Legless, that workout, right? The first time they did Legless

where he had all the ropes hanging, where he had Jordan Troyan and Rich and like that, kind of epic battle. That test probably holds up at like a semi-final as a sprint. At the games, you probably need to add another round, or maybe you need to add a few more legless rope climbs, but that workout is almost 12 years old,

and it would still hold up as a really, really good workout. And then there's some workouts probably from that games that we would look at and say, yeah, we probably need to adjust the load. Ten, I haven't forgotten. I still got to send you the information on those sports cards. They've just been crazy busy.

We have all of our furnitures in our living room still and we're waiting for some renovations to be done. Um, and then we were traveling for Christmas. I was at home for Christmas and I have like 14,000 sports guards for when I was a kid. And I was like, just looking at them. I was like, fuck, what the fuck do I do with these? Like, how do I like know how much they're worth? And apparently Ken has like a whole warehouse of sports memorabilia and does auctions and shit for it. So he's going to help me out. Trying to value some of them. I'm sure most of them are worth two cents. Um, you should beat half fuel Taylor.

Yeah. I wouldn't want 100% would destroy him and that workout. It's just a question. It's not worth it. Even it's not even worth my time. You guys don't even want to know what Taylor said when I asked him before the show, he could do it. You like that?

Kill Taylor tomorrow is going to be a crazy one. You guys aren't going to believe it's going to be nuts. Exactly. What the heck would I do with $200 worth of mayhem merch? Cut up some little soft cotton toilet paper? Come on. Damn, sorry. That was blasphemy

sorry rich I didn't mean that at you rich I was more talking about Austin and Jake hey if you um if you do the open stop stop fuck no this is the thing no I'm not doing that work over kill Taylor I don't take other people's workouts that they are doing a cute little challenge and no, stop that. The only workout I'll take from someone is from Jr. If, um, if you're, if you do the open and you're feeling good, you have another good open performance and you fit the criteria of whatever the North American semifinals are doing, which I'm sure a lot of them are going

to use the open as their qualifier. Are you going to go to any of those in-person competitions? If you get invites. Come on, man. Why are you doing that right now? Dude, that's good. You see, you got to feel that silence. That was like, oh man, I got in deep.

He wasn't expecting that. Hey, real Kevin, I'm actually not tired of losing at all. I didn't lose last week. Proud boy, proud boy. Stand by and stand back, extra sloppy. What workout in 2024 killed Taylor? Are you most surprised that someone actually beat you? Have you thought about that?

Like which one were you just like, I cannot believe anyone beat me. Okay. Let's go look at them. Cause that's a good, uh, that's a great question. Most of them, when I got beat, I'm like, damn, yep. I fucked up. I don't know. I can't think of one off the top of my head where I got beat and I was like, damn, I can't believe I got beat on that.

Um, let me pull this up. Okay. I'm just going to share this on screen. Oh, and we can calculate my winning percentage as well. Fuck you, assholes. Yeah, but someone made a good point about that too. A lot of people are just saying your record, whether you won or lost the whole weekend You should it should we should add up how many times people also called in so like People called in and lost then that week you were eight. No like that should be running total for sure

There's no way for me to remember. Oh, wow. We are just past. Oh God that was a oldie, but goodie. Still holds up that one. Okay. I'm an oldie but a goodie. The the turf one. Okay, week one I won, week two I won, um week three I lost to Matthew, so I'm just going to keep track of my wins. I bet that was maybe the most. Yeah that's the one I was probably most surprised about. Week four I lost to Colton. Week five I won. Week six and I won that Week seven Yeah, I lost that to Yelly jelly I wasn't surprised when he beat me I was pissed off Week eight I won

Week nine I won week ten. I won way fuck I wait, wait. Fuck. I lost count. So I'm seven for 10 right now. Right? Yeah, that sounds right. I lost the yellow host, a Colton and Matthew. So I've got seven wins. Um, eight wins, nine wins. Oh yeah. That's when I got clapped. Okay, still at nine wins. I lost to Mathias Porter. Still at nine wins. I'm nine for 14. I lost to Colton on that workout. Still at nine wins. I lost to Hans on that workout. Nine of 15.

I won this workout. 10 of 15. I won this workout 9 of 15. I won this workout 10 of 15. I won this workout 11 of 17. I won, sorry I lost this workout 11 of 18. Let's see. 11 of 19, I lost that. Who'd be the last one? Who will? Colton, Colton. That's right, that's right.

12 of 20, I won this one. 12 of 21, I lost to Colton on that. 12 of 23, I lost to Gabby Magawa on that. 13 of 24, I won this one. 14 of 25, I won this one. 14 of 25, I won that one. 14 29 I won that one oh oh what happened here how do I go back what week was that fuck my balls oh no there's only been two since then I think 15 or 29. Okay, I won this one so I'm 16 wait This is fucked How do I get further

While we're boring the fuck out of people show more posts here we go Stop stop. Yes, you're like What 55 60 percent 20 percent? Yeah, I don't know something like that damn that really annoys me that I got all that way and fucked up Where am I are you I was thinking it was like, oh yeah. Where am I? Are you, I don't even know. I can't even find you right now. Oh, here we go.

You're frozen. Okay, am I better now? No, you're still frozen on my screen. JR? You're frozen. And we have three people watching. Yeah, I'm here. Okay, 16, shut up.

17 of 32. And this week it'll be 18 of 33. So let's see what that is. 18 divided by 33, 54%. Yeah, I'm not upset about that. I would say the one I'm most surprised by is the Matthew one. Um, that fucking bastard. So you should be proud of that.

Yeah. But I'm also, every time I lose, for example 40 30 20 biker D ball I got lazy with that one You were lazy with the road climber be get over for sure Which one? Oh, I didn't lose that one. The one Colton beat you. Oh, oh that one. Yeah, I got lazy with that one, too it's like I get lazy and I think think that's the hard, been the hard thing to be most disciplined on is not getting lazy. I think all 25 needs to be challengers go first. I mean, that's just how I feel.

I don't know, I don't wanna do that, but. No one can argue how much easier it is to beat someone when you already know what time to be. It's so much easier. Oh, that's not the only, that's also kind of like, I've already stacked the deck as much as I should need to. So instead of that, it should just be in 2025. I should just stop being a bitch with the programming, you know, every

week, 50 plus muscle ups. At least. I mean, Sevan seems to be a lot more okay now than he was early on about the workouts not being like five minutes or less. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. That and they should be a little longer, like you said,

maybe sometimes to 10 minutes ish. But no, I would just say, Oh, petition. No, I'm not doing it again. It's too much work. I don't have enough time for it. Do you guys like a couple weeks leading up to the open? Do you guys do anything for the open specifically for people that want to like that's their year thing that they want to do better in the open specifically for people that want to like that's their year thing that

they want to do better in the open percentage wise like do you have do you program certain days geared toward classic open movements do you spend more time doing skill work do you do mostly strength work under fatigue do you do anything like that or you just program as usual i do a lot of that on saturnal and i'll do some of it for the gym. It won't be like this massive bias toward open stuff, but it'll definitely be touching movements we can expect to see in the open a little bit more. I'm a huge proponent on if you're going to use, like I'm not a big fan of benchmarks repeating, measuring your improvement in fitness for this reason. You could just train that workout over and over

and over and over again and improve it. And has your fitness improved? No, one element of your fitness has improved, likely at the cost of several other elements of your fitness. Whereas the open, it's unknown and unknowable. So you have to train general physical preparedness in order to reasonably assume

that you're going to improve, right? Everybody's gonna have a hole in a weakness where, okay, if that shows up, you might do worse this year than last while still being fitter overall, but you can safely assume that you're training to do better in the open by touching a broad range of exercises,

modalities, formats, etc. You're getting fitter. Whereas if you're just training to do better in a five by three deadlift to 5k and Helen, there is a lot of shit you're missing out on. So for Sentinel and for the gym, I pro with what I typically program in mind of is like, okay, the open is our generally our community accepted benchmark test of fitness, the open, it's it's we measure it every year out of this many registrants. Where are you at on the leaderboard? The workouts are different? Sure. So it's not often repeated. But you're testing still 10 general physical skills in a widely

varied and broad general inclusive way where I just think that training to do better in the open makes you fitter and that's why I like using it as a as a benchmark. Judy had a question, who does your gym programming? I do it. And then me and Andy also work together on it. It's, it's loosely based off Sentinel 60. And then, you know, me and Andy still work on it together very collaboratively just because, you know, if it's just me programming, he's going to think half the shit is stupid as fuck and he won't be bought in. And if it's just him programming, it's vice versa. And when we do it together, we're both bought in and, you know, when we're both bought in and believing in it, it's just, it's great for the community. So that's a, that's a big thing for us. Yeah.

And that's a, it's gotta be a unique responsibility you have because you're in charge of getting your members, you know, fit for life, but also feeling prepared when the open comes around that like, Oh man, we haven't done a thruster in two months. I'm sure that last week's going to have thrusters, that kind of thing. But also because the people that follow Sentinel Training, competitors, now that the quarterfinals are eliminated, are some competitions going to have their own qualifiers, like more local competitions?

Sure. But for a lot of competitions, just for ease, where they use a quarterfinals leaderboard, they're probably going to use the OpenMedia. So how hard is top 1%? I don't know. I have no idea. Let's just, let's say there's a hundred thousand people because it's easy math. Like how many people follow a blog program, whether it's yours, whether it's mayhem's,

whether it's whoever's and think realistically I'm in the top 1000 in the world. Like I mean, and that's, that's putting males and females together. That's, that's a tough ask from a programmer. Yeah. Because whereas, Hey, I've got all these clients and their goal is to make quarters. You could do that. Confidence. Oh, a hundred percent. I think you have people that are saying, Hey, I've got all these clients and their goal is to make quarters. You could do that Confidence. Oh 100% I think you have people that are saying hey like I know I'm not top 1% or they're gonna be some that say I Might be top 1% and they're gonna be some that are like if I don't make top 1% I'm fine another program You know what I mean? Yep. I think that is- Whether that's warranted or not.

I think that's probably the biggest miss from the season updates this year is removing quarterfinals. I just don't understand why you would do it. All you're doing at that level is you're, you're opening the field up for more play from people who really care and want to play. And all you're doing by eliminating quarterfinals

is kind of taking away the excitement for a decent portion of people. I mean, that 10% thing, I mean, okay, was 25% a little aggressive? Yeah, 25% might've been a little aggressive, but I mean, I thought 10% was great. It was a huge goal for a lot of people. So many people were close to it. And it was something that you could strive for. Like, Hey, I mean, that might never make a semi-final. I don't care to, but I want to be top 10%. Um, I just think, I think it's kind of a bummer on their part for removing it. And I think anyone who was a hater of quarterfinals should shut the fuck up. Like all the elite athletes who hated quarterfinals,

dude, shut up. You just, you do what you're told to make it to the games. That's it You do it you're told to make it there's there's an easy way to I'm not even taking the judging team in consideration. We can tell no we didn't hate quarterfinals or take a Making the making the making the leaderboards public Letting the community judge and then if you had a certain amount of thumbs down then someone from up top looked at it I mean, that's an option. Yeah, but letting the community judge. And then if you had a certain amount of thumbs down, then someone from up top looked at it. I mean, that's an option. But there's a way to do the open

and for the best of the best say, hey, if you finish in the top 1%, guess what? Congratulations, you get to move on to semis. You don't have to do quarters. The other 19%, the other 9%, you guys have to do quarters. Like that's, yeah, that's a way, that's a way that they can do that for sure. And uh, now I just think it's like they're gonna try to make up for that with the community cup, but like dude, it's

Uh, I don't know. Maybe it has potential. It's impossible for me to be super excited about it. I'm very skeptical about it. I just think you create so much more excitement I'm very skeptical about it. I just think you create so much more excitement by having that carrot of quarterfinals and say, hey, I still get to play with the big dogs. I know I'm not going to go to a semifinal, but I'm still doing the same workouts that these guys have to do to make it to semifinals in the games. And I get to measure myself against them. I bet most of the games athletes won't do the community cup. I bet 90% don't do the community cup because they're douchebags. So it's like, okay, well then now if you're in the community and one of the things that excited you was competing alongside those beasts, the community cup is not going to

offer an opportunity to do that. No. And the only barrier to entry is that you signed up for the opening of those workouts. It's not that you finished in a certain level, but you're comparing now to people that are like levels. So maybe there's a workout variation for levels one through three. There's a workout variation for levels four through seven. There's a workout variation for levels eight through nine or whatever they're going to do. I think Dave talked about that, that you're going to be basically competing against people that are on your level and have the same level on their profile as you do. I think it's laughable.

Most of the games athletes aren't doing the games. I think that's a laughable thing. I would say, like, I mean, really of the, if you want to do a percentage, like it's still over 90%. I would be shocked if it wasn't over 90%. Like, this is a good question. Would you rather have a five week open straight to regionals or bring back the 10% quarter finals? My favorite part about true nutrition is the ability to customize my own supplement.

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code SEVON, S-E-V-A-N. Take the guesswork out of nutrition with true nutrition. I'd rather the 10% quarterfinals. You get seven workouts that way and then a semi-final rather than five. And you give opportunities for someone like my mom or Sevan where a five week open is just a fucking dogfight. It's like a grind to get through. Three weeks is much more manageable. It's very manageable for the affiliate. And then, hey, if you're planning to do quarterfinals,

you as an affiliate owner, I can say, hey, you need to arrange your own judging that's squared away. It's not this whole community thing. I'm not going to make the classes do it for class workouts. But if I have 20 people that do quarterfinals, I'm like, hey, you guys are going to get together. Let's create this group and do it on the weekends, whatever. I feel like the three week open into a 10% quarterfinal was a really, really, it was starting to feel like, Hey, this works and it will continue to work and

it can just only be refined and made better. So I'm kind of a little bum thing next to it. Yeah, I like that. Seemed to have a good flow to it. I think three weeks is usually the, the capacity for athletes and gym owners alike to stay engaged. What I'm really curious about is because they're not gonna make it five weeks going from every one to 1% and then those getting what 14 spots in the games. I am really curious how the programming is going to shake out.

I think quarterfinals last year was really, really good. I think it exposed people in different ways that needed to be exposed. And I think the people that made semifinals for 99% of the time were the right people. So I'm wondering and I'm curious in three weeks, and let's just say four scored workouts just for the sake of argument How they're gonna how they're gonna narrow to 1% because there's gonna be They're gonna be people that aren't left out and then you know the easiest explanation to that and the easiest argument to that is the people that are on the on the border to make top 1%

argument to that is the people that are on the on the border to make top 1% have no chance of qualifying for the games and if that stage is to just whittle down to the games level athlete, then it doesn't matter. Yeah. This is a good question. JR, what app will WPTH be posted on? Link Conger. Link Conga. Where are you from, Link? It'll be on Fitter. I'm being happy with the app so far with the members. They've been using it for about a month. Just using it to enter results, seeing workouts, all that kind of stuff. The website, while it is live, and maybe this is my mistake, the payment link, so when you go to buy it is not active until the first. So that is launching 1.125.

So right now you can get on the website, you can look at everything on it, you can read about it, you can read about the tracks, but you can't purchase anything until the first. Why do so many affiliate owners say the five week open was so much more stressful to run? Honest question, I don't understand why they think it was so difficult. My take is it's really challenging as an affiliate to program on a weekly basis knowing that on Thursday, anything could come out. On Friday, you've got to somehow make an adjustment based off of your gym's program for the previous four days on accommodating that workout.

And then you've got to be around and be present Saturday, Sunday, Monday for anyone who wants to repeat the workout. You do that three weeks, OK, it's challenging but doable. Now you basically increase that by 50% or let's say 40%, whatever. You do it an additional two weeks, I would just imagine that that's a lot. Yeah. I think before they went away from open to regionals,

it was difficult because in your gym, you either had team athletes or individual athletes with serious aspirations of making it. And that stress and that pressure and that amount of, I mean, there are people that redid workouts two, three, four times in four days. And a lot of times the affiliate owner might be the only one with the judges' scores and they're the only ones validating scores

so they're the only one judging people that signed up for the open. And it just, it was a ton of work. It was a lot of work because people were a lot more serious about it. I will say that it kind of happened at the same time when they went away from the five week open and they added the quarter finals.

The ability to not make it straight to a live competition from the open did take a lot of the stress off of the higher level athletes so they didn't take it as serious. A lot of them were like, hey, it's cool. I just need to do my workout. I need to execute it, Hey, it's cool. Um, I just needed. Do my workout. I need to execute it, get a good score. I'm not going to redo it.

So I would say like when it went from a five week to a three week, also the amount of redos went down. And for me personally, dealing with that on Sundays and Mondays was tough, especially in a smaller gym. Yep. What do you think of competitions like World Fitness Project, Rogue, Wadapalooza? I mean, Rogue is the one to garner, I would say the most attention with their

live streams, because they do a good job live streaming, and they do actually a good job showing races that are exciting to watch. But what are your thoughts on? Okay, will Wadapalooza or World Fitness Project ever have as much excitement around it or as much of a fan base as the games have? I don't think it'll ever be close. I think the pool of people who watch the games, who go to semi-finals outside of maybe some members of your affiliate or family members, they're all the same people. The same people go to the live competitions in the United States. The same people watch the streams. I think that

The same people watch the streams. I think that the thing that more opportunities for athletes to compete will equate to more people getting involved in watching a fan is not realistic. I think to get people more excited about watching other competitions, there has to be some kind of buy-in from the greater community at large. Hey, I can go compete there because they have community divisions. Hey, I can watch someone I know that goes to my gym, and my gym is going to get some love for advancing to the next stage or whatever, and that will happen.

But I just don't, I don't think a lot of people are interested in going to live competitions. If that were the case, they would all be packed. Mm-hmm. So I don't know how doing more of them is gonna help The rest that already exist What's the coolest part about watching the Super Bowl? Like what makes it cool? Dude, I would say half the people that watch the Super Bowl watch it for the parties that they throw and for the commercials I feel like for me, and I mean I'm also making some pretty suppositions about why other people would watch it, but for me the Super Bowl is cool because you have the absolute best teams on either

side playing as hard as they can possibly play to be crowned world champion. And that's why the games are exciting, because you know you have the 40 best people on Earth there, because they've gone through the screening process that's been refined and established. And it's observable, it's measurable, it's repeatable. There's a definition behind it. There are metrics used. And then the person who wins is titled the fittest on Earth. That's just so fucking cool. Events that can't do that. It just it's like, well, I don't watch the Pro Bowl. You know, I don't ever watch the fucking Pro Bowl.

Who gives a fuck? I don't watch the MLB All-Star game. The World Series, I mean, I would just like, I wonder what the, and that's just saying, look at how popular the NFL is and the MLB is, and look at the viewership on the World Series or the Super Bowl, and then compare that viewership to the Pro Bowl or the MLB All-Star game. And now take something like CrossFit, which isn't really, it's not a professional sport. I don't think it ever will be. It's just too different in a lot of ways.

But now you take something that's so much less popular and you create another competition that's so much more niche. Like what? Right. It's the All-Star games are horrible because it's not a real game. It's just like an exhibition. Everybody's just stoked to be there and they're just playing because they can play. And that's kind of what I think is going to happen with World Fitness Project because they're guaranteed money. It's like they sign a contract, they're

guaranteed money. Okay, well now they're just going to go there and show up and play. They're not fighting for the fittest on earth. You don't have fucking Roman doing double unders with his ankle taped up because he wants to stay on the podium. Like you don't get moments like that. Um, I just think, yeah. Yeah. I think like it, it being the same game, like we call it a game because some people say it's, you know, CrossFit isn't a sport, but it being fitness racing. Oh, it's definitely a sport. It's like college football versus NFL. They're huge fans of both and there's some that prefer one over the other for different reasons.

Hey, NFL players are more entitled. They get paid more money and up until recently the college players, you know, were just like competing for a chance to be a national champion or to move on to the NFL. Now they're getting paid. So it's a little bit different. But most of the same people watch both. Most people that watch college basketball don't mind the NBA. There are some that hate NBA that only watch college. football and NFL is not like the difference between the CrossFit games and WFP. Why I wonder though, if you have like the really, really big competition. So let's say five years down the road, um, world fitness project has their three major competitions.

They have two, and then they have a, um, a world champion and the CrossFit games have their semi-finals and then they have the CrossFit Games to crown the fittest on earth what I'm wondering if World Fitness Project takes off and People are signing based on the year previous they get their pro card They sign for however amount of money and then they make winnings on top of it sign for however amount of money and then they make winnings on top of it. The competitions like Dubai, Wadapalooza, I'm not going to put Rogue in there because I think they'll always be really prestigious and kind of like, kind of like the masters is everyone wants a green jacket.

Everyone, everyone wants to compete at Rogue. I wonder the competitions that we all fought were the off season, big competitions, big opportunities. Are those now going to be like college sports? So it's gonna be like, hey, if you haven't broken through yet, that's the people who are going to those competitions. You're never gonna see the perennial games athletes,

the games champions, the World Fitness Project, signed athletes that are in the top 20 that have their pro card. If they're gonna compete three or four times a year, and then they're gonna compete in the CrossFit Games season, who's gonna wanna compete more than six, seven, or eight times a year? It's then gonna be the lower tier people that are trying to get their pro card, that are trying to make the CrossFit Games.

Those semi-finalist athletes, are those gonna be the people that are now making up the competitions everyone wants to go to and watch? Because right now it's the water falluses and the competitions like that. But everyone says they want to compete more. If they do start competing more, then those other competitions are going to be the ones that I feel like are going to take a hit. Yeah, I can see that happening. I do think that there was some merit to what Greg was saying on Sevon's show the other day in that he spent $25 million a year to make Tommy and Sean feel important and like they were doing meaningful work. And basically he had to pay $25 million

to make the games popular. And that he kind of felt like it was a mistake because in doing so, he made this thing that was actually pretty small seem way larger than it was. And when you think about it, I mean the popularity and the attention of the athletes get, it is kind of like it's in a bubble. And when you get to the games, it's kind of like some of the allure and shine and luster wears off a little bit. I think that I just don't know that the athletes understand the concept that the games 100% has been built on the backs of affiliates and the people who are members of those affiliates being fans of you and paying that $20 open registration fee and believing in you guys because at the end of the day you're doing the same thing.

That's what makes the game so cool is people can sit there and say, hey, I can do that too. I want to see this person do it at a level that I could never imagine. It's, yeah, there is, there is something really, really special and unique about all starting at stage one. And even knowing that, hey, I've got no chance beating those guys. I just want to feel like I'm a part of something. And then getting to watch the culmination of all of it at the games. I definitely think there is something cool about that.

Right. Do I think that the fans just want something to watch to be entertained? Absolutely. Just like you watch, just like in the off season, you'll watch a random, you know, ultimate frisbee game because there's no sports on you just want something to watch. But yeah, I think that like the the idea that the fans that are, you want to pay for the stream, that you want to buy your shoes, that you want to pay a ticket to go watch you compete,

that those are all not people who in a gym, CrossFit affiliated or not, are doing that thing is silly because they all are outside of your family, that's it. Steven Tackett, most major sports leagues changed over time. Like the NFL going from the AFL to the NFL or the ABA being absorbed by the NBA. For sure. I just don't think that you can compare CrossFit to any other major sport league because it's not this game with a set rule that is the same every time you watch

it. It's entirely different every time. And for someone who doesn't do CrossFit and affiliate, they're not gonna understand why the games has, has nasty Nancy and awful Annie and friendly Fran and why water Palooza is doing swimming and beach runs. They're like, what, what am I watching here? How do I know which person is doing better? It's just too, I think it's too much going on,

which is, it doesn't mean it's not gonna be popular. It's just not, you're not going to get, I don't think the fan base that those sports get because the rules change every game. The rules change and the game changes every single time they play. It's a different set of workouts, it's a different set of movements,

it's a different set of standards, and it's a different set of athletes every single time. And there's no, I just don't think there's enough continuity to create this long lasting buy in. And I think that's why you look at the NFL and the to a degree, you're like, okay, well, that's why NFL is a little bit more popular. Or some people say they like the NFL more than college football is because there's more continuity there. They have more continuity with their rosters, because athletes aren't in and out every couple years. It's easier to buy in. I think it's that kind of notion or concept on a much larger scale of CrossFit. I don't think it is, okay, this is going to change over time and it's going to grow and we're going to have more fans. I think these athletes and these exhibition competitions are taking the way they get the most popularity and the way they have the largest fan base and the way they make the greatest impact. And they're pissing on it. The CrossFit games are being crowned

the fittest on earth. And starting in the affiliate with the open and being that athlete that says, hey, like the cool thing about what I do is that my grandma can do it and it's scalable. And that we have the cure for the world's most vexing problem. And we're curing chronic disease and affiliates are lifeboats. You don't have a lot of athletes like that anymore.

Yeah, but also too, I don't think that, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I don't think that anyone should be looked down upon for taking the advantage of an opportunity to get paid for that same thing that you're talking about. I think that's great. I think anyone who gets a contract is like, dude, good for you. That's awesome. Someone's got to get it.

I'm glad it's you. And if it goes away in two like, dude, good for you. That's awesome. Like someone's got to get it. I'm glad it's you. And if it goes away in two years, you know what? You still got that contract that's binding and you still get paid your money. I'm not saying I'm looking down. Oh, I am looking down on it. I'm not saying I am looking down on it. So I am, I'm lying.

I look down on it and I do think it's the wrong thing to do for two reasons. If you really are that kind of person who's looking to make the most money and to create the most lasting impact in your brand as possible, you're fucking retarded for taking a contract from World Fitness Project,

rather than hitching a ride on CrossFit's ball sack and preaching the methodology and having main site or HQ send a fucking camera team out to your affiliate and film you coaching everyday members because those everyday members, those are the people who are going to follow you on Instagram and give you a brand base or a fan base that you can leverage for more money with however you want to make that money. No, no, no, that's not. That's the fact.

Look at all of the earlier athletes and those athletes who hitched a ride on CrossFit media. Sam Briggs has 600,000 followers. Jason Hopper has fucking 60. I mean, that's just wild. Like the, the, it's probably closer to a hundred. Maybe not. What I'm saying is it's just wild to think that a $30, hey, maybe start spreading the good word of CrossFit and trying to make an impact. You will gain a greater following. I think five years ago, before you started Sentinel or even thought about starting your own business and you were just coaching at the gym,

if someone said, hey, I'm starting this new thing, it's not gonna conflict with the game season, how's 30 grand sound? You'd be like, where, I'm starting this new thing. It's not gonna conflict with the game season. House 30 Grand sound, you'd be like, where do I sign? I think perception changes as things change in life. And like, think about all the changes you've gone through in the last four or five years, not only monetarily, like from a business standpoint, like, cause that's completely different.

That's like, I mean, that's stratosphere is different, but just, but just everything that's going on within the, within the community. I think it's, it's a, it's a lot easier to have that mindset sitting back and being like, you know, I just bought a new house, the business is going well. What's 30 grand to me. I can make that, I can, I can make that as a part time, you know, brick Mason or whatever.

Like, I think, you know, I don't, you're right. You can take money from world fitness project and spread the good word of CrossFit, but name an athlete that's doing that. Well, I think if the, no, no, no, name an athlete that's doing that. James will absolutely be one. I think James James has signed a James has signed a contract. Listen, I was going to say before you interrupted. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I would put down in that, in that category has down signed a contract. Yeah. He's they've already announced what, what I just let's hear. Let me check this out. And I'm not knocking down here. I know how hardcore OG much of a fan of the history and the sport down is. And that's why I feel comfortable saying that.

And I think he's a huge proponent of it. Um, all right. Are you ready for this? And that's why I feel comfortable saying that. And I think he's a huge proponent of it. All right, are you ready for this? I will say I love Dallin. He's one of my favorite people, but let's just scroll through. We'll go through 20 posts. And I wanna see one post where he's telling other people to go do CrossFit.

But that's you thinking that's the best way that he can gain popularity is by doing that. What if he doesn't think that? Well, he's wrong. And as a word of advice, you should 100% be telling people to do what you love and you would get a crazy fucking following for it. Yeah, maybe, maybe down hate social media.

Maybe he does it because that's what he's contractually obligated to do. I just think, and maybe this is also, I don't have to go through any more posts to prove this. Um, it's just typical of the current breed of athletes, I will say. This does not take away from him being an amazing guy, but I think when agents started dominating the space and it becomes, okay, I'm going to try to get this athlete, this contract with this company, and I'm going to get a cut, those things like, oh, you post authentically and be your real self

started to fall to the wayside. And you know, who's a great example of not that stuff falling by the wayside Colton. And you know, who's not really in the aging game Colton. Yeah, I think, I think it is completely different time social media and the reach of influencing wasn't a thing back, back, back when Rich and Matt, not to the extent that it is now. I think that they, the opportunity to monetize off of promoting other people's products was not nearly as prevalent as it is now. I'm proven wrong. Judy Reed said down to the YouTube video visiting an affiliate and dropping into class. That's awesome. I wish more athletes did that. And fuck me for getting that wrong. The social media really matters. It

matters in the sense that I think a lot of these athletes create this larger than life persona of themselves, but then they don't leverage it to give back to the thing that's given them a massive platform. I guess that's what frustrates me. Um, and I take back everything I said about down because Judy proved me wrong. Yeah. And he is hardcore OG and so is James. And I really respect both of them.

I really, I'm going to push back on you on this because I'm interested to see what you say about it. Let's say that you, you play high school basketball, you play college basketball, you go overseas and you make $300,000 a year. You think that person should feel obliged to go to the local middle school? NBA is not a lifeboat for chronic disease. Stop it. It's right. But I'm just asking you, do you think that the

mindset of I need to make sure everyone knows I'm fighting the good fight is reasonable? I don't, I don't, I'm, it's not a question of, is this reasonable or not? It's, Oh, what's most valuable to me? A $30,000 contract with world fitness project or another way to build a lasting brand that 30,000 about values and morals, which I definitely think is gonna be very, very different. That $30,000 contract with World Fitness Project is gonna be gone in a year.

That money's gonna be gone in a year. 30K for most of these athletes is gonna drop in a fucking bucket. And when they're done competing, they're over. They're done. So what can you do to create a lasting impact and to give back to a community? Like it's okay, we're creating opportunities for athletes. No, you know how you create opportunities for athletes? You make

CrossFit bigger. I just am so, you know, I don't think more competitions creates more opportunities for CrossFit. I think, or more opportunities for athletes, I think spreading CrossFit, like every one of your followers needs to know that if you walk into affiliate, you can change your fucking life. And every single person who walks into that affiliate is going to brush up against what happens at the games.

And this idea of finding the fittest on earth, and this idea of forging elite fitness. And every time a new person walks into an affiliate is an opportunity to create another person in your corner who wants to see the cool shit that you do. And you're not getting any of that with World Fitness Project or Wadapalooza or Rogue Invitational. You know what you get from Rogue Invitational? People who watch the games already and people who watch Strongmen. So you get people who are great fans of CrossFit Games watching Rogue Invitational and you get people who think they're fucking stupid

and all they do is talk shit and about how much steroids they're using. You don't have anybody who's like, oh, I've never done CrossFit before. I'm gonna watch the Rogue Invitational. They don't even know what it is. So I just, all I'm saying is there's this massive guise of, oh, we're doing this for the athletes.

We're creating opportunities. Like, dude, $30,000 isn't a fucking, I mean, I don't know. I mean, yes, my perspective has changed because my position in life has changed, but I also have this perspective now, and maybe I wish I would have had it sooner and I'd be much better off than I even am now.

Yeah, it's, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. It's, is it. I agree with a lot of what you're saying. It's a. Is it because it sounds like? Amount of money that is insignificant, it doesn't matter like, for instance, if I told you that they were all signing for a minimum of $300,000, you'd be like, OK, I get it. Like what's what you know, it sounds like it the amount of money is what matters to oh Yeah, that means nothing. They should they they could make that if they just leverage themselves by pushing the methodology

What amount of money would you buy? Yep, they're never gonna see that by pushing them Well, I don't give a fuck about any of the athletes and how much money they make I care about the guys who are going To the games and trying to be the fittest on earth. That's what I want to watch. I want to watch someone become the fittest fucking person on earth and fight across 13 workouts to get there. That's what, that's why everyone watches the games. They don't watch the games because this fucking num nut makes 300 K from tier and that num nut makes 250 K from noble. No one gives a fuck. They just want to see the fittest person on earth crowned. That's it. You know, what's cool is watching James get crowned the fittest on earth was fucking sick. And I don't know,

I'd wait for you to say he makes a fraction of what most of the other athletes in his field are making. Yeah, I don't know. James strikes me as a pretty savvy guy when it comes to that kind of thing. But Travis brawl. Shut up. You pussy Taylor. You're advising people to turn down guaranteed cash and go all in on a brand that's been nose diving for seven years.

Here's the thing. The brand of CrossFit hasn't been nose diving. The games have been nose diving because these athletes don't know how to put something on their back and you guys both sound like like you have this whack little resentment against CrossFit. Boo fucking who. Boo who, bro. Cry me a river. I think you're a lot more forgiving and a lot more rooted in why you do CrossFit, how

you do CrossFit, how you spread it to others, then I think it probably jades your perception a little bit of how these people who are only athletes could possibly think like you. Yeah, and that's the disconnect. And that's why these only athletes have 60,000 followers versus someone like Sam Briggs, who's got 600,000. It's because no one wants to watch an only athlete

who doesn't give a fuck and they're only doing it for the money. Sorry, we just don't fucking care about you. We don't give a fuck. There are people in the NFL who will never see the fucking field that will make more than they make in a year than a CrossFit athlete that's a games athlete will make in their entire career. No one fucking cares, bro. That's all. I don't know. I just don't think it's, it's a good discussion. It's one I think a lot of people are having and it'll be even more interesting once details come out that we don't know about. As far as when these competitions are going to fall, is there going to be a reasonable path for people to compete in both?

Because I think at the end of the day, if I'm watching a competition, I want to see the best people there. And is it going to be okay? Well, these competitions are getting these people and these in the games are getting these people. Oh man, I wish we could have had all of them still at the games and not half in one and half at the other. That's the, I think that's, that's what's going to determine it.

Right. Madison, your athletes grow the games and your athletes grow the games, athletes, your gym members grow that it's not the other way around. And right. You might have the random person like me who walks into an affiliate for the first time because they saw the games, but more often than not, the rule of thumb is people want to get fitter and they want to change their life. And that's why they walk into an affiliate. And then when they're there, they're introduced to the games, but more often than not, the rule of thumb is people want to get fitter and they want to change their life.

And that's why they walk into an affiliate. And then when they're there, they're introduced to the games. They're like, holy shit, that's so- I can say in five years, so since we've been at the new facility, not one person, not one, not one new member has said, I watched the CrossFit games

and that's why I want to try this out. The other thing is- At the old gym, we were there, I was the owner there for five years. I would say maybe five people walked in and said, Hey, I saw the, I saw the games doc and I thought it was really cool. In 10 years, five people said that. So this is another good question. Do you even know how the athletes are being paid and are they guaranteed? Yeah. What if an athlete gets injured and they don't show up to that competition? They just don't get any fucking money. We have no idea. I think the other thing to note is the kind of the comparison between CrossFit and these professional athletes to other professional

sports is so insanely different because the NBA and the NFL and the MLB, they're not claiming to define fitness and they're not claiming to cure chronic disease and they're not marketing themselves as a lifeboat. They're not marketing themselves as a lifeboat. They're not marketing themselves as, hey, we can change your life. We can add years to your life. We can turn America around. We can turn the obesity epidemic around.

We can get you off of fucking insulin. Like, no, all of those sports are just making you more unhealthy. They're encouraging you to drink a fucking Coors Light, need a fat sausage kielbasa at a game and fucking get heart disease. CrossFit is so, so massively different in the sense that the entire premise

is that you are changing yourself as a person. And the athletes being popular don't come from, okay, this is an easy thing to watch and anyone can watch it and it's fun and they're American gladiators. No, people being excited to watch it are saying, hey, these guys do the same thing that I do every Friday at 530 a.m. And these are the tip of the spear, but they're still a part of the spear that I'm on. It's not like there's some different fucking element entirely. All right. Hey, I gotta go.

I gotta be there. See ya bro. Love you guys. See you later.