The Standup with ThePrimeagen - Casey VS Microsoft

Episode Date: May 8, 2026

We dive deep into the recent Windows 11 update and Microsoft's claim of a "performance-first" rewrite for the Run dialogue. Is 94 milliseconds actually fast, or is it just "cope"? Casey breaks down why measuring UI responsiveness in FPS matters, the "racing the beam" philosophy, and why he’s officially done with Windows for good. We also get an update on Trash's "unethical" Pokémon card bot army, his Slack status management at Netflix, and why "Family Feud" on a floppy disk was the peak of gaming.

Before we do a sweet intro, I want to do an even sweeter intro, and I would love to hear about Trash's snack of the day. But before we do that, Trash, I think you've been prompting a little too much because I think I just caught you prompting right now, right before this thing. I'm responding to a Slack message at work, okay? You don't have any idea. I didn't do that for you. What the, dude, you respond manually to Slack messages in 1987 calls.

I just realized I'm the only one in this group that has a real job. So I'm sorry. But us real people. Dude. Okay, I'm not going to lie to you guys. When people say that to me on Twitter, it does.

That's how you can one guy me pretty good. It's saying that I'm just like, multiple. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. XOR posted one of the guys who does shaders, like, you know, this cool.

Yeah, XR's, XOR dev. Shout out XOR dev. And he posted a poll that was like, how is, is it making your job more or less competitive, I think what you was asking? So I was like, where is the option for don't have real job, don't know? And, you know, so I'm

okay with it. You can't one guy me that way. You're sensitive about this prime? A little bit, a little bit. I am. I can understand that. I'm triggered. Okay, just let it go. I can understand that. It's fair. It's a ton of work doing like content stuff. So much

work that like it's more work than most normal jobs. So, like, Like, I don't know why people wouldn't think it's a job, but... Well, the thing that, the thing that irks me the most is that I internally put on timelines on myself. And I try to build as much as possible, so I'm not like a dummy when it comes to programming. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm learning, I'm learning Odin right now, having a great time. It's just like, oh, I don't know why it gets me.

Probably that's the copium, dude. There's, I know, there's just like a couple things that get me. And that's just one of those... I don't know why. I got to let it go. Unfortunately, you only told us, Prima, and not anybody else. So that's good.

Now everyone's really going to bring this up every day. Here's the thing, though. I'm sorry, you're learning to do what? I've never heard. I don't know what you're talking about. I check the Wikipedia page. Odin? I know, I've never seen an article about that in any reputable publication.

Odin? I'm sorry. Like, is that, that's some God, I think. I looked it up. I'm actually trying to figure out this whole God situation. Okay. So I'm starting with Odin.

You know, the North Groot. Yeah, quick point of contention, does that make Odin the Norse God a notable character? Is Wikipedia saying he's real? Like, can't Odin the language be a fictitious programming language created out of thin air by Ginger Bill? Right? I don't know. I just need to know if Wired Magazine has ever talked about the Norse God Odin. If they have, then I'm told, then he probably exists.

That's what I would say anyway. And he's probably notable. Right? I would assume he's notable. Yeah. If some Wired magazine author talked about their imaginary friend when they were 12, then that's notable because, hey, they wrote it in Wired Magazine. Man, the power that's... I just want to circle back really quick on the real job thing that Trash brought up.

I was just saying, Trash, if you want, we can help you join the rest of us. Yeah, that's true. And I also would like to throw out there trash is the only person with a real job. Why are you here during the workday? Yeah, that is a good question. Good question, TJ. That's a good question. Well, now you're trying to make me join you.

What's your current Slack status? I just want to know. What is your current slack status? Is it green? This is the worst. I hate it when we bring up my truck. It says out of office until 1130. Oh, so 30 after the podcast.

That's every day. Trash doesn't go into the podcast. I make up for this time, though. I make sure I work extra hard for an hour and a half. Don't worry, Trash. The recording's going. They know it's happening. I hate that.

Trash, everyone at Netflix knows. Apparently when you show up in office, they're like, yo, it's trash from the stand-up. Hey, is that H-CTP? Get that out of here. That's not how we order coffee. We order coffee via s-sh-terminal. Dot shop.

Yeah, you want a real experience? You want real coffee. You want awesome subscription so you never have to remember again. Oh, you want exclusive blends with exclusive coffee and exclusive content. Then check out Kron. You don't know what SSH is? Well, maybe the coffee is not for you. Terminal coffee in hand.

Live in the dream. Now I'm all self-conscious. I'm going to work so hard today. Okay. You're going to promise so good? You're gonna open up. You're gonna be so... Hold on, I got kickoff an agent,

so I don't feel so bad about being right here. Yeah, yeah, kick one off. All right, Trash, what's the snack of the day? You gotta give us a little bit of the snack of the day. This is my blocker right now. I have these giggles, which are like a healthy version of Skittles. No such thing.

Did you have to go healthy because you ate too many snacks? Well, my wife is, like, very much into, like, anti-food dye stuff. So this is, like, the candy you can get that doesn't have, like, the food dyes. And my daughter's, like, allergic to some of that stuff. so we're very like, I'll learn about that. And then we have these like Easter candy things, some Andy's gummies. He has risen, yes.

And then I got an horses because I went to get breakfast right before this. I just got here right on time. I got a quick workout in, got my quick pump, ate a pancake, and then sped on home. Do you eat any non-carbohydrate foods? I don't know. I try not to. Yes.

Yes, I should eat. No, I'm a big meat eater. I'm like a big state guy. Okay, so you do. Oh, by the way, we do need an update. This is true. Trash. The receipts.

How are they going? How's your wife doing? What kind of things have you been? It's really funny that you bring that up. It sounds like it. I use it specific, I use it specifically for myself. I use it for myself now so I could just like tell my wife when I'm doing the laundry. And so I have a huge list of just laundry.

So then whenever something comes up, I'm just, going to pop it out. I don't know when. So you have a laundry list. Literally. So essentially what you made was a self-promotion, a household self-promotion. I have converted it to making me look good. Yep. That's smart, trash. That's smart. And I'm not bringing it up. I'm not bringing it up. It's just when something happens, I'm going to be like, check this out.

Check out all this laundry I did. Hit the scroll and then it's going to scroll all the way, maybe. So that's how I've been doing it. She has a bunch on me, actually, which is not a good thing, but it's okay. All right. All right. It's okay. Brian, what about on your side? Are you still getting receded? Okay. Trash, I'm going to tell you the truth. I went to my wife and we talked about it. And she said, I'm not going to use receipts because it's too toxic. I'm so shy.

Wise woman. I'm so shy. Wait a second, though. Wait a second. She would probably destroy Prime. That to me sounds like trash just needs to work on the PR. because that to me sounds like a reluctant. I'm not going to use it. Like, I wanted to use this to document all the crap that you're doing prime, but I don't want to do it because it sounds a little too bad.

So if, if, like, if Trash changes the messaging to, like, help your husband become a better person. Right. Come alongside your husband on his journey to adulthood. Yeah, Trash just needs PR. He needs a PR. We need to spin this for him. And then this thing is going to the moon, man. I've already moved on to my next unethical thing, which is...

What? I started building a bot army so I can get Pokemon cards. So I've been researching hard. I've been researching. It's actually so complicated to do these bots. I love that you're building this trash because you're building it for good purposes so that you can actually just get Pokemon's yourself without getting into a fist fight at a machine. The good guy needs to win.

Don't you become the bad guy once you're using a butt army? Well, I'm not making like a, so like typically these busts people are like thousands. I'm only making like, really fast. I can't even make that many because there's like a lot of complicated reasons. But I'm just going to make a handful just to like up my chances slightly. It's not going to actually get. Trash, I have a MacBook mini. I will let you use it if you want to use it until you can get at least.

I will use it. Trash. You write stuff that gets deployed on every Netflix computer, right? Oh Oh, dude What? Have you heard of spinnaker? What?

I don't want to think about it. There's like Nintendo has to shut off like all of Netflix's IPs because all of a sudden it's just like this massive like Pokemon buying spree. Just wait till this wall gets super high. That's when you're gonna know my bot's working. It's working, yep.

All right. That's what you know. Is there any possibility we could intro, we could actually start? Welcome to the stand-up. Today we have an extremely special episode for everybody that's watching the stand-up. For those that don't know, this is the world's most attended stand-up. Congratulations, everyone, for being a part of it.

I hope everybody has their blockers. They're ready. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. Unfortunately, interns, still unpaid. Still unpaid. Still unpaid.

The interns are always unpaid. But you guys, the things is that I love you with the love of a CEO. Okay, I just want you to know that right now. From the bottom line heart. We talk about valuable work experience that someday could land you a paying job, right? True. Someday, you guys will get paid. Just not here.

Today is not one of those days. So go get some coffee. Yeah, go give me some coffee. All right. Now, today, our very special episode, it has to do Casey. I was absolutely fascinated with some of the tweets you were making, Piga's Windows 11. Actually, well, to be fair, we got to back this up a little bit. About a couple months ago, Satya released a note of intent saying that Windows cures you.

We are going to win back the consumer, is exactly what he said. And the first major patch since that announcement just came out. And that exact patch contained a new and improved Windows run dialogue. And so this is a part of their major push to make performance more top of mind. At least that is what Windows 11 explicitly said. And as part of their announcement, they said, this is the fastest that the run dialogue has ever been, ever, E-V-E-R. Like, this is the best it has ever been.

Here we go. And they announced it. And it takes approximately 90 milliseconds to show on screen on the median. So the 50 percentile. So we don't know what, we don't know what, like, the 25th percentile. We don't know the quartiles here. So we have no idea what's going on. But we do know that the median is approximately 90 milliseconds.

It was 94, I think, might have been what they said. Yeah, I don't know how they measure that. That seems really impressive, considering most displays don't, you know, they're usually locked to some number that probably doesn't land on 94 every time. I don't exactly know how they're measuring that. But nonetheless, that's what they're saying. Absolutely impressed with this performance. But then, Casey, you did a little bit of snooping.

I did. So I actually didn't. So I really didn't. I didn't care because, like I said, I don't use. use Windows really like anymore. We kind of, we kind of nixed that, pun intended. And so like, I'm just like,

it's a, it's kind of just like, all right, you guys, you know, you can do your rodeo now of where you decide to try and make Windows perform in or whatever. That's fine. But what I was going to say is, originally I only saw this because Tim Sweeney was commenting on it. I think he was said something snide, like, you know, you said it was 94 milliseconds for this, you know, performance top of mind rewrite.

It's like a gaming monitor is like, you know, eight milliseconds to refresh a frame. Like, what's going on? And so the only thing I really did was just retreated. I'm like, okay, popping up the run dialogue like is like a drop to 10 fBS, right? Because that's what, you know, it's like 11 FPS, I think, would be if you rounded 94 milliseconds, it'd be like, you know, it'd be like 10.6 frames a second or something if that was your run rate. And nobody cared about the run dialogue for the most part. Pretty much people just cared about the fact that I used it FPS as a way to like explain what the number was.

Now, remind you, I'm not posting anything original here at all. I literally just like, here is the screenshot of the thing that Tim Sweeney posted, or was replying to rather. And I'm just like, and I highlighted it, and I was like, they were like, Perf, top of mind, 94 milliseconds. And I was like, geez, like, that'd be really slow. Like, 94 milliseconds is a long time. Especially because, like, when you think about what the run dialogue is, it's not really, like, it's a user interface interaction. Well, you hold on right there, Casey. There's processes that they have to create.

I don't know what a process is, but apparently it takes 90 milliseconds. Yeah. So this was the thing where they were like a lot of people just had a problem with this. And a lot of people is probably the wrong term. Like most, you know, it was a very popular tweet actually, so I suppose most people

didn't have a problem with what I said. But for the people who did have a problem with it, there were two things. One is they were like, well, this is like, you know, loading. It's like how long something takes to load. Which to me is ridiculous because it's like, no, it's like a text box and maybe some history. There's no

shouldn't be any loading. Like, this should just be, it's a trivial, it's, you're talking about like 4K or something of data that should be required to do this thing. Like, it's so minimal that you, there's no question you shouldn't be launching a process for this in my mind, right? Maybe if you have some kind of weird process isolation thing going on because you're scared that someone's hacking your run dialogue, but then at that point we should talk about why that's happening exactly and other things like that. But, you know, there's a whole sort of thing. So you could come back with some blog post where you explain.

like, here's why it has to be a process. And maybe I'd be like, okay. But in general, no, like, that should not be. If the user doesn't perceive them to be loading something, then that's not really acceptable excuse. A, so I didn't think anyone who replied with that, I don't think they have any leg to stand on. So I'm sorry, like, I just completely disagree with you.

This is not a load operation. But that was relatively minor. That was, I felt like that was just as you folks say, and as the kids say, that was just like trying to come up with the number for the 94 or whatever. That was some cope. Yeah. A little bit of cope and also launching nodes so you can use React. That's all.

The bigger thing was they didn't like the use of FPS. And this to me is like I can if you if you don't want to use FPS as a way to like talk about how things feel and how long they take. That's totally valid in my opinion. Meaning I would never go to somebody who quoted milliseconds and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, son, you should be saying FPS. In this house? In this house, we measure with FPS. Exactly. Like, I would never do that.

Your milliseconds. If I did that to somebody and they were like, dude, I quote these things in milliseconds, that's how I do it. I'd be like, ah, sorry, like I was, yeah, I was being a dick. I shouldn't have done that or whatever. Right? Like that, I would feel bad about that if I did that, right? not so with these people these people are like

you cannot quote FPS numbers unless apparently because there's some internet committee that like must have decided this FBS has to be average FPS

Yes it is so Casey you may not know this but if in a video game in a video game if you fire a gun but you only fire it once and it takes 90 milliseconds that's just part of that's just

that's just loading it only counts if you repetitively fire it And I thought people were mad though, Casey, because the run thing is kind of like, you know, Anthropic sort of started the trend. Everything's a game engine, Casey. Well, so it's like, they were, they were. So I don't, it's not a fair FPS measure.

All I'm saying is, so it, what I would say is if that's the way you want to quote things, that's totally fine because I like having both. My preference is to see both. So I like to see the bill of seconds, and then I like to convert that to FPS in my head so I can see, like, if I was hitting monitor refresh, because the way that I usually like to program anything that's like a user interaction,

is I like to hit monitor refresh for, like, what I expect the target monitor refresh to be. So if someone pushes a button, then, like, from the time that that button comes in, I want to try on the frame that it came in, I want to try to have the response to it on the frame that's submitted at that time, right?

So you push a button on one frame and the next frame that you see as quote like should have it. Now sometimes it's two frames because like there's a compositor in the way. Sometimes it's more if the TV sucks and it's buffering a lot of it. So like there's reasons why that can start to multiply out.

But the way I like to think of it is like, okay, at least for the code, like you know, for telemetry, which I assume is where this number is coming from. If you timed from like when the event happens and when someone actually got a frame, I want to see something close to monitor refresh or twice monitor refresh, depending on what you're counting there, right? And so this is actually legitimately the way I think about it. Like that was not, I think people were saying or were trying to impugn to me the fact that I was

trying to make it sound worse than it is by using FPS. And I guess what I would say is that is like, no or yes and no. I do think of it that way. And yes, I suppose the reason I use that number is because I actually believe it's bad. Like when you're not getting monitor refresh, that I think you did something wrong probably, right? It's like, especially if it's just I'm popping up a text box or some UI thing, I just think you did something wrong. You should be at monitor refresh, just period, right? And if you don't agree with that, that's fine.

Like, you can just be like, no, I like my things to be more laggy than that. you can totally make an argument that you just don't care. You're like, look, 100 milliseconds is what I think is reasonable for response to UI. So that's what I do. Totally fine too. But claiming that FPS is a bad way to do it, I totally disagree. I think FBS is a very good way for someone to have in their head like, oh, am I close to monitor refresh? Like, I know I should be hitting 60.

It's just a good, like, metric to have. And if you want me to convert that, so I always say 16.66666666666666, 6666666-66-66-6-7 Instead, I suppose I could say that for you, did that help? If I changed it from FBS to Hertz, like, I mean, well, cycles per second, presumably they'd say, again, it has to be average

for some reason. I don't know why. Those are not intrinsic to the measurement. Frames per second just means you took a count of frames and you divided by a time, right? And it doesn't not imply that there was any more than even one, actually. Technically, you probably need to have two to measure something between, but

like, you know, um, So anyway, I found all of that ridiculous and very disheartening because it just, I was like, this is ridiculous. All of that, all of this for something that as far as I can tell isn't actually relevant anyway. Like, because, for a couple reasons. But here's the first one. They said in that same post that the original run dialogue experience was 104 milliseconds. And the thing they were replacing with. Yeah, was 94 milliseconds.

That's what they said in the post, right? No, no, not that post, right? I thought it was 400 milliseconds. That can't be real. No, it was in the blog post that I saw, I think it was 104. On Microsoft's blog, they were like, the original one was 104, this one's like 94 or something like that, or 98. I don't know the exact numbers, but they were both very close to 100.

Like one was less than 110, the other was less than 100, right? So between 90 and 100. So remember, half of the. Half of the measurements are above 100 or above 94 too. Because remember, that's just the median. Well, I'm just saying. So I was curious about that because I was like, I don't know how they're measuring it, right? Because there's different ways you can measure it.

If you're talking about like a latency chain where you press a physical button and then see something, it's pretty easy to get a response time to go up to something like 100 milliseconds. If you have slow mouse, slow USB processing, the operating system's a little slow. your code is a little slow. The monitor buffers several, the GPU is buffering several frames. The monitor's buffering some more frames. I could construct a situation where some code that responded potentially,

like my little piece of code that responds instantly still is taking 100 milliseconds because everyone else in the chain is screwing me, right? This is a thing that people who have ever measured latency with like a camera, no. You can easily start to beef that up, right? Or you've ever actually played a game on a TV set to non-gaming mode.

And all of a sudden, you can feel it when you're playing Mario. You're like, oh, what is happening? I can't jump anymore. That's why problem loses in games. That's actually why. I've been on TV mode. I didn't know that. I've been on TV mode. I didn't know that. That's why I lost it's Fortnite. We used to watch a lot of TVs.

Yeah, when he used to do that, when he used to be Dr. Disrespect and do that channel, he had to stop playing competitive games and create this Primogen thing, specifically because of this he had a TV that was buffering too many frames he couldn't win anymore

there's call a duty career went down the toilet and here we are on the stand-up but that's ancient history now no sense dwelling on the past the point is so I don't know where they get this number from right I don't think Casey knows we'll just keep on going let's just say hit the end

of his career as a oh yeah no it was not that no I yeah All right. Yeah, yeah. It was, let's say that it, uh, anyways. It involved. It was not Minecraft.

But anyway, um, the, the point is, uh, when we, uh, look at these kind of numbers, who knows how they're measured, right? Like, nobody knows. Right. Um, because there weren't discussed. So we know that they were statistical, meaning they said it was like a median. So meaning we, we, we know that they were talking across a number of, machines, right, a number of configurations, probably meaning it's telemetry, meaning it probably

comes from end user machines, but it's hard to say, because again, I don't know exactly what their setup is for doing this. But I was curious about that, because I was like, you know, that sounds really high, actually, from my recollection of the run dialogue. I was like, I don't think it takes 104 milliseconds from end of click to showing the run dialogue on, on like Windows 10, for example. By the way, this is a very important part, because remember, the post said this is the fastest ever. Right, which it may well mean.

Which tends to mean forever. It does mean forever. Which is right, which is, which is, which good point is what I'm trying to get to. So the part that confused me was I was like, where did that number come from? So like on the, on Windows 10, I tried testing the existing run dialogue, which obviously is not the updated one. And I did a 60 hertz capture. Now I know that 60 Hertz will make people very uncomfortable.

So what I mean to say is a capture where the frames were capped to 16.6666666666-66-7 milliseconds. How many, Casey, is that in Deca frames per hour? That's my preferred. That's the only unit that I prefer discussing. So just that you can convert that again. What is the 60 in 60th per an hour? I don't know. So I captured it.

and captured a bunch of me running the, you know, doing the run dialogue, just to see what it was. And it always responded in two frames, which would be, you know, somewhere in the 30 millisecond range, depending on, again, if you were trying to include mouse clicks or something, I don't know. But assuming you were doing telemetry from a machine, then you can't do that because you don't have a high-speed camera sitting on,

and so I'm assuming they're recording something like that. And so I don't know now. So if they're using that number 104, as a median, well, I tested this on a machine that's a decade old. It's nine years old, right? So it's a very old machine. What are they testing across such that they're able to get a number that's three times higher than that as the median, right? I don't know.

And since I don't know, now I have no idea what's going on. So I don't know where the 100 millisecond number comes from. But the reason I say this might just be much ado about nothing is because if that number is similar, inflated and the 94 is similarly inflated, the actual number for a response time might be much better. It might be that number divided by three, which would again be two frames, which is fine, right? Much, much better than the, you know, drastically increased three times latency one that it sounded like it was going to be, which everyone, I think, would have been correct to kind of freak out about, because, like, they are all used to an experience where it's one or two frames to pop up that run dialogue, and now it's taking three times longer.

that would be annoying. So I really don't know what's going on here. I feel like they needed to, if they were going to make a post about performance and they didn't want people to comment on it, they needed to put more information in there that would be clearer about what's going on. And also blaming people for having a reaction to this,

especially when they just quote, like they just put a quote and be like, I think what I said is, am I reading this right? That's what I said. To get really mad at someone who said, am I reading this right? This sounds really slow is ridiculous. Like, that's what makes X so crap.

The only response to that should be either, yes, you're reading it right. This is kind of slow for popping up a run dialogue because that shouldn't really be any work. Or, yes, you were reading it wrong. Actually, that 100 milliseconds is this really bad way we measure it, where we measure it from the start of the click to when we show it. And since we can't launch to the person. releases the mouse button that's an extra 50 milliseconds that's just padded on there, right? Like, that is the answer to this.

Not some snide, like, you can't use epi-eat. Like, it was garbage. Like, I really didn't like the responses that. I felt like they were ridiculous. And so, like, I'm pretty thumbs down on what people said. That is my annoyance with it. The happy news, though, is I think what's going to happen is the run dialogue will probably be fine.

I can't say for sure, but I think these numbers are not, like they're not measuring either what we think they're measuring, or they somewhere in their test suite, have 10,000 really old buggy laptops that take an extra 70 milliseconds to do this operation, and they're skewing the median or something, right? Like some explanation like that.

So until we get more information, I think this is just a dead issue, except for the fact that people out there who think FPS isn't a good way to to it response times, I think you're totally wrong. Okay, I got to jump in. Casey, so there is something about all of this that you're really missing, and I would

just like to, I would love to hear Trash's opinion on this one, which is Trash, you've worked at Netflix now since the Great Fall, like Trash joined and Netflix dropped by 60%. Effectively is what happened. It was more. That was Trash's fall? It might have been 70%. Anyways.

They heard that he was coming. Yeah, they heard that he was coming. He joins the company. Netflix went from 690 to 1,000. 70 or something like that. It was a disastrous moment for us. Now, Trash, do you have like a bunch of like stock from when you worked there that Trash was Trash personally ruined your retirement savings? He did everybody a favor. He helped people for a decade. So thank you Trash for that. Everybody. Thank you.

Josh. Everyone give Trash a clap. This is why he's still at Netflix. Get those options down so they can go back up. Yes, exactly. There you go. Casey Stonkin right there. Anyway, so we've been at, like, you've worked on a product that's sensitive to any sort of code, right? Because the TV platform is just, it's a very hard platform. It's a much slower platform than everything else. Now, Trash, have you ever once heard anybody at all in any point in life ever talk about response times in frames? No.

Yeah, Casey. So this is something that you might not know. But in the web world, nobody has ever once thought of something in. terms of frames. I don't say, I like, this is a whole novel concept of you being like,

unless you're doing like a lot of animation, I expect next monitor refresh rate something to happen. Like no one's ever said that ever. That would, that would explain the disconnect probably because to me, so I, like obviously I was, um,

raised, I don't know if that's the correct term. To catch on fire. Um, so I was raised in the era of during the, thanks, B, Blink.

Yeah, R. DED. Yeah, it was good for I. Nice vocabulary, buddy. Okay, Casey, continue on. I was saying something smart, please. It's not smart.

It's historical. What you normally would do, right, is you'd try to have it so that, you know, you update your stuff during the vertical blank of like a CRT, right? Like, the scan line comes down, you update yourself, and you come back around to the top, and you need to have everything done in that time, like, for the next, right? So you're always, I mean, the phrase racing the beam, like, made it into the title of a book, I think, right? and that's what that was referring to. You're racing the beam, the, like, the actual, like, CRT, like, display beam, right?

The thing that excites the phosphorus on the screen of a cathode ray tube, right? And then went from there to, like, in sort of, like, the Carmack era of gaming, like, when, like, the Quake engine kind of ushered in 3D and this sort of stuff in a big way. at that point I believe he had a thing and I don't remember if this was like something that he said in like person that I remember him saying

or whether it was something that he posted in like a plan file but I remember him being like look if you structure your update loop in one way where you like do your rendering where you issue your rendering you update the world, do issue rendering and then process input

you lose a little bit of time because some of the input maybe you could have gotten a little bit just before you were about to submit the render or something like there was a thing where he was talking about that and I was like okay yeah I probably should always be very thoughtful of like how can I make sure I get input as close as possible to submission so that I'm introducing the least like the smallest amount of latency especially if you have something like v-sync on where you're going to like, if you like processed input

and then weighted on v-sync, then came around it to your render, now there's an even bigger gap between those things, right? And so I've always, I'm always used to think of it as it frames. So input comes in on a frame, you should see it on the next frame.

As close as I can make it, I don't want to be the weak link in that chain. I want it to be the TV that's screwing you, not me. So I've always thought of it that way. So I always think of it as FPS. and especially nowadays when like, you know, when I do ping times on like the network here, even on this crappy Comcast connection that I'm on,

most network on modern broadband internet, the actual ping time out from the person to like a local, to something that's close to them, is actually sub-monitor refresh. Like you can actually get a network packet to someone and back in less time than like a 60 hertz refresh. That's how good this stuff has gotten.

You know, people on fiber are getting sub one millisecond ping times to things like the lyric Google Node, right? It's incredible. And so nowadays, I just think everything should be thought that way. Like, it's just, look, the fastest we can, the reason to do it in frames is that's the fastest we can get something out to the user. Like, what's the lowest amount of time this monitor can hit? That's what we should be shooting for. And sometimes it's unrealistic because it's like, okay, they're on like some north of 500 hertz, monitor. The operation we're doing is to heavyweight. So we got to set a more conservative frame

target totally fine. But I never think of it in terms of anything other than that because that's our limit. That's what I can give you the frames at. Yeah. I mean, to be fair, we do, even in the world world, we do think about FPS, especially for like animated heavy websites. When you notice we see like jank is like stuttering. That's typically when we'll actually take into account like FPS. But honestly, most apps like aren't really doing any animations. It's all just async crud apps just waiting for something, right? So it's more of how long this take to load,

which we'll use time, like, milliseconds, versus an FPS, because that just wouldn't make sense in that case for us. Will TTFB? Is that what I'm hearing? Trash? A little bit of that. A little bit of time the first bite. Yeah, a little bit of that. I feel like that is sort of a separate thing, too,

is like, um, you know, to me, the user should see the response instantaneously, even if the thing takes a little while. So like, Suppose I'm on some network and I'm like, look, it's AWS, so, you know, good luck getting this response back in less than 30 milliseconds. Because, like, even though the data center is, it's like two milliseconds of hop away or something, as soon as it hits AWS, it's just grinds to a halt, right?

And, like, that's been my experience. And it was like the late, the time it takes light to get to the data center has nothing to do with how long it's going to take. They are just going to chew through those milliseconds doing whatever it is that they do. with like their switching and, you know, virtual machine management or whatever it is. You know, I don't work there. I have no idea. So assuming that you're going to do that, you're like, look, we're not going to hit 60 hertz or 120 hertz because we know this thing's going to take like 40 milliseconds to get back from AWS. I still want to show the thing immediately.

So like for the case of a run dialogue, let's say for whatever reason I can't predict it. I don't know the use going to do it. I have to fetch their run history from AWS for some reason because like it's, oh, it's a shared. It's like a synced run history across machines. I didn't know they were on this. machine or so i mean i don't know how that doesn't make any sense i should have sunk this ahead of time but whatever um i would fire off that request but display the run dialogue on the next frame right because i know that by the time they're actually able to hit the first key that i'll need to search

that run dialogue for i probably will get at least some of that information back and i so i'm covering a little bit of that latency and giving the user the instant response that i want to give them right um and then if if you know the response doesn't come back and they do hit a key and I'm sitting there and I'm like A2S not loading, then I have to put up a little spinner or something, right? Just tell I'm like, look, AWS is dick in me here. So I get it. Like, you know, run

history not available to LATWS responds with a little thing. But, you know, that's just how I think about it. So, like, I'm not being disingenuous. That is literally how I think about it. And it pisses me off in games, too. Like, if I'm sitting there waiting for a loading screen, I'm like, guys, you obviously could have

streamed this in. Like, why wasn't this already loaded? Like, what's going on? I get mad at that all the time. I'm just like the goal should be zero weight states for the user, pretty much ever. So we've had a lot of arguments about this over the years. And who? You and my previous team, shall we say. And so one of the big things was what's worse, the initial loading or in-app loading?

Like which one actually makes a user more nuts? Which one's going to cause them to be more upset? Would you rather have a bunch of small distributed little loads throughout the app or would you rather have a bigger initial load? So in my mind usually, so I would say that if I find myself in that literal position, then my answer would be how often do they load this thing? But before finding myself,

I would have asked the question, are you sure? Are you sure that you couldn't find a way to make this work? Because a lot of times if people are like, oh, we have no choice but this long initial load, I'm like, are you sure? Like, are you sure that you actually did everything you could to make that initial package you needed to get started as small as possible, right? Well, I'm on team bigger load initially. If the app is... But obviously within a threshold.

If the app is loaded infrequently, then if you have to make that tradeoff, I would say you'd do that. If the app is loaded all the time because you typically load this thing, do a little tiny thing, and then close it, then you're kind of in this nasty situation where it's like, okay, well, I don't know. It's sort of just as bad, right? Like, because, you know, so I would say, I wouldn't think about those things as different. I would just say there's frequency of operation and cost of operation. And you're trying to minimize the total of those, right? The cost times the frequency. and so if the frequency of launching this app is very high

and the frequency of things you do in the app is very low, then maybe it would make sense to actually try to minimize your app load time. But in general, I would say like, 99% of the time when someone's like, oh, I needed to do X, so that's why there's a long load time here. I'm like, no, you didn't. Like, I can think of tons of ways that I could have not done it that way, right? Like, strip this out, don't do it that way.

Have a low-quality version of that thing you stream in first, right? Like, think megatexture, right? Or level of detail would be a better way to think of it, right? I know that I have something I can display for this thing. It may not be the best-looking version of that thing. So if I'm caught by surprise, I do that right away and then increase its resolution when I can, right? Things like this are you can typically do things

to try and make sure that you're very responsive. And, you know, if you then decide, like, okay, no, we can't do that because this thing has to be super-steenly, Sure, you can always paint yourself into a corridor where you absolutely have to do this thing, and then I agree you do. But I would make sure all those avenues are exhausted first, is I guess what I would say. Yeah, we do have like some techniques that we call or that we coin call like progressive enhancement, which is just play the shittiest thing.

But if you have a good machine, then we'll slowly enhance your experience, right? Which I think is fair. But just to, I don't, go ahead, go ahead. No, just to try and get that nice, responsive feel because, you know, and that's, again, that's just because that's the way I like things. I like things to be very responsive. Maybe some people just don't care. They push the right button on something.

If you open up next place, you push the rights button, it takes a while. It kind of lagging. It goes, I'm like, that sucks. Like, someone should fix this, right? If someone else might be like, I don't know, it's fine. Right? And so it really depends on who you're talking to probably what their preference is on those two things, right? I don't know.

Does that make sense? Like, you know, some people might be fine with that. Some people might not be. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to, everyone has a different threshold on what you're really to tolerate, right? Yeah. So it's hard, like, who do you optimize for?

Like, there's nothing I hate worse. I would hate to have a quick experience, like load, or like a quick loading experience, but then every time I click something, it's like, oh, now we got to, now that thing is, I think that's, like, significantly worse in my opinion. Because the clicking is more frequent, right? It's, that's what I say, like, it's frequency versus cost.

If you're going to click a hundred times in this thing, but only load it once, you don't want the hundred things to each take the long time and the one thing to be fast, right? That's not helping anybody, right? Right. That's what all my banking software looks like. I open my banking dashboard.

It's just like 20 spinners, and then I click something else, and it's like 40 more spinners. I'm like, who's making these banking apps? It's also so complicated. It's got so many zeros in his. You know, it's just such a full bank account. They're spinning forever to figure out what's in his account.

Progressional. Zero is getting added to Trash's bank account. Oh, my goodness. We have to widen the bank account. this div. It's crazy. If I had that many years, I would not be on this podcast, you know what I am? What? I'd be traveling out of the world. That doesn't even make sense, trash.

You're not working right now. Here's the thing, the wall of Pokemon would be bigger. I wouldn't be working either. I'd be much bigger. That's what I'm saying. Aren't you having fun hanging out with us? When you still be on the podcast? Yeah, trash. You're not paid to be on this podcast. What do you mean? I thought you did it for the last of the game, baby.

that what I said. I don't care. Red button, blue button. I don't know. I don't even care. Oh, no. I was still the best answer. I'm answering, from now on when people ask that red blue question, I'm giving Trash's answer. It's the best answer I've ever heard, and I loved it. It was so good. I don't like red. That was exactly how much thought the question deserved. It was perfect.

That was a teachable moment for me, and I have learned from Trash, and I am a better person. You're welcome. That's my opinion. Anyway. I really wanted to for the full. episode just like play i thought about just having the edit be it does trash's answer and then we play everything else on 16x and then it just ends with kCU saying i hated this discussion the end of the episode it's too fast i thought people would enjoy the overall conversation

but i did think about like publishing the full episode just with trash answering and then it was a pretty answer it was freaking perfect dude i loved i loved it Microsoft has a bit of a hill to climb because I'm just going to throw this out there. I also get an like an update just recently that restarts my computer like six times before the update actually happens. And I just read an article from somewhere where it's just like it's actually totally normal that Windows needs to up, you know, restart your computer 15 times for an update. Like this is actually by design. And so I think part of the problem that I personally have is that they're like, look at the run dialogue performance. And it's just like, well, that's something I virtually never use.

Because I just don't, I mean, I don't do development on there. So I'm not opening something that needs that. Typically, I'm, you know, I'm opening a couple things that I've pinned. I use Windows in a very rookie way. And so it's just like, none of these improvements really help me. I still run into bugs all the time. Like right now, for whatever reason, we're back into the state where when I create a folder, it goes to the bottom of the list and not the top of the list.

Like all the folders are on the top. I create a new one. It goes to the bottom. And so I have to leave and come back if I wanted it up at the top again. And it's just like, it's driving me bonkers again that there's so many little things are broken and I just want to like lose my marbles. And then they're like, bro, but run dialogue, dog, is so fast. But they didn't. But they didn't say that.

What they said is we're we're putting in a new run dialogue that was made with performance top of mind. And great news, it's basically the exact same speed as the old one. Right? That's what they said. Nobody said that it actually substantially improved the performance. So presumably what they were trying to say was we added some features, right? I'm guessing, I assume, I mean, I don't know, because I don't care. This is the other thing that I hate about the fact that this tweet got, I guess, so many likes that people started replying to it with this crap about FPS.

But anyway, I'm assuming that the idea is they added a bunch of features. and didn't make it slower, which is good, right? I mean, like, I'm happy that they actually... First time in a while. Didn't do that. But at the same time, it's like, I wouldn't mention that, right? I wouldn't have cited some numbers and been like, hey, like, we're so proud of ourselves that we didn't slow down a run dialogue.

Like, I'm like, yeah. Like, what... That's like, that's like, par for the course. I mean, what are you talking about? Like, of course you shouldn't have slowed down the time it takes to open the run dialogue, that's a blog post now? Like, what's going on? Right? So that alone, too, is just very frustrating because you're like, now you're getting mad at, now you're getting mad at me for replying to somebody who replied to your thing where all you did was say that the run dialogue

takes 94 milliseconds, which is a hell of a lot of time for something to take. And like, how did we get here? You know, it's ridiculous. This shouldn't have even been news. It shouldn't even have been posted. Well, to be fair, the person that got, the person that most got mad at you was actually a writer for something. It wasn't that it was like someone that could have got Odin. They could have got Odin a Wikipedia page, but instead,

Casey, you're now getting a Wikipedia page being Mr. FPS, you know, falsifier. Except it's not false. It is the, it is the FPS. But yes, like, the question I have there would also be like, could we, you

proposed this trade, I believe to Jimmy Wales on the previous episode let's propose it now I can go back and delete my original tweet and post a new tweet where I put the millisecond number in place of where the

FPS number now mind you my tweet had both because I quoted the millisecond number so it was it wasn't that I didn't include that information right it was that they didn't like the even the fact that you could bring FPS into it was just this unholy you So absolutely ridiculous thing to do.

But anyway, I'll go back and delete that tweet and only mention milliseconds. I won't mention FPS anywhere in it in exchange for them writing a nice article about Odin and how it's used at Jenga effects. There we go. That's a good deal. That's a good deal. That's a good deal. Right? We all, everyone wins.

Except Microsoft. I don't know if you know this, but kind of a little update. this person named Phil which you can't really quite see well on my or the stream can't quite see it very well but Phil over here wrote his own version in which takes approximately 20 milliseconds to show up on screen

and so he's able to show a dialogue super ultra quick in his own handwritten one yeah but the problem with that is that like I'm just I'm just going to put myself in the mind space of the people who were replying to my tweet Okay.

Take a moment. Take a moment, Casey. Take a moment. The problem with that is in that demonstration doesn't mean anything because that person didn't run it on all the same machines and take the median. Hmm. Yeah. So this is a meaningless. It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. It's meaningless because he has a different monitor. Also, he's not loading the run history from Microsoft One Drive or whatever the heck it is that this thing does. Right. So he's not doing. The things I always get, they're all ridiculous, but they're that, they're like, you know, it's not an apples to apples comparison. You don't have all the features. It's the features.

It's the plugins. You just don't, you don't have plugins, plugins. Everyone knows that as soon as there's a concept of a plugin, everything takes several seconds to happen. That's what he'll get. People reply with that crap to that person, even though he did it, right? So, Casey, you're actually missing kind of like a really fun part of web dev, which goes a little something like this, which is, all right, we're going to rewrite something and we're going to rewrite it. And here's our kind of first implementation of it, and it is 10 times faster, bro. It's so good.

The previous version. Like this new version, it's so fast and they release it and everyone's like high-fiving. and then about three months later after you've fully rewritten it, it's effectively baseline or worse. Like typically it actually goes worse. Like this happened with a very major project that I saw actually got significantly worse memory usage.

And so it was just like, but in the beginning it was so good. So when I see a like a run dialogue rewrite that came in below budget, I mean, you don't realize what this does to me. Like I can't, I didn't even think it was possible.

So I'm actually very impressed. I mean, mean, like I said, I don't know. I'm just saying what people will say. I don't know. I thought for, oh, God. No, Teach, please. I was going to say, initially when I saw the tweet, I thought for sure I missed

it because I thought they were saying the start menu thing, the thing that people actually open. You know what I'm saying? The one that, like, sometimes you press the start thing and then it, like, it just doesn't show up for five seconds, and then it shows up. And I was like, I was like good for, yes, yeah, it shows. ads for edge and for Bing. And like, I was like, wow, good for them.

A feature that a regular everyday person uses. They rewrote from scratch and took from my experience median of five to 10 seconds to load, it feels like. And they brought it down to 90 milliseconds. I'm like, great. Good for them. It's the opposite of that, right? Every single version of Windows, it gets slower. The start menu is still bad.

And the run menu that my parents don't know exactly. exists is faster. My mom has never seen the run menu. She does not know what that even means. Like if I were to tell it, oh, just use the run menu. She'd be like, what is a run menu? I'm kind of confused about the run menu to be completely honest because, again, this is kind of like, for historical reasons.

Originally, the start menu did not really have the concept of like type to execute. So like if you look back at like a Windows 95 or Windows 2000 XP era start menu, then what happened, if I'm remembering correctly, is typing would be interpreted as like trying to hotkey through that menu. So like, if you popped up the start menu using like the super key or whatever, or the Windows key or whatever it would be called, I guess. The co-pilot key now, Casey. Co-pilot. Yeah, right. It is. You push that, the start button opens and you type a key. I think it just hotkeys through that menu. It doesn't start. It doesn't start. It. It's, It didn't originally, at least my recollection is,

it didn't originally start accepting those as keystrokes to be interpreted as a command of some kind. If you now do it, like if I hit that button, it does. So like if I hit the start menu button and I start typing, it does sort of like a Linux-y style thing where you start typing into a kind of ambiguous box that's just like, I don't know, I'm going to do something with this. Yeah, the menu, effectively.

Effectively. My question is, why is there even a run menu to begin with now? Isn't that thing? Like, why are there two different things? And I'm guessing, and I could be wrong, I'm guessing the answer is because the run menu is actually going to run the thing, whereas the box is like,

we have to keep that as like an idiot box. Like it has to be a thing where you just type, if you type in C-colon backslash, you know, Windows backslash notepad. exe into that or something. We have to show you ads for our new co-pilot improved notebook that you, or whatever, right? Like it has to do all these other

business-oriented operations. So that can't be the run dialogue. We have to have this other run dialogue. Is that the explanation? Because I don't really know. I don't know why there are two. Yeah, Casey, unfortunately, you're 100% right. It will literally show you

internet search results in the start menu in Windows. in Windows. I'm doing it up my Windows machine. Yeah. Thank you for getting on the case. Search results. It's a thing.

So I find Casey, wait, can I say one more thing about that though, which is that Casey, unfortunately, you'll be really pleased or sad to hear. I don't know, depending on, you know, are we praying on Microsoft's downfall? I'm not sure. But oftentimes it shows the internet search result higher than the local program. In my experience on that where you start typing something, I start typing. I start typing Slay the Spire 2, and it doesn't pick the game. It's going to pick a web search to bring me to Slay thespire2.com or something like that instead.

It does a bunch of stuff. Ed, yeah. Trash, hold it up so we can see. Flip your, you know, point yourself away from the camera. No, you might reveal it one password. This is a work machine. Hold on. It might reveal us one password. Don't do that.

Don't do the, don't listen to them. Yeah, true. Yeah. Don't give away to one password. That is fishy right there, trash. Oddly enough, I do have my password on the screen right now. I save it in a No, you don't.

Don't say, No, are you kidding me right now? Was that a joke? I don't think he's kidding. Oh, no. Gosh, you can't admit that. You cannot admit that out loud. You just, you just, you just.

It's secure. It's not secure. It's not secure. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. All right. Casey, can I make, can I make you even more frustrated? I mean, I, again, like,

I don't care. Windows, do whatever you want. I switched. I don't care. The frustration was the tweets. That's very immature of you. That is very good of you. So one thing that's kind of interesting about what's called the start menu is that you can kind of treat it like a fuzzy finder a little bit. So I can type in like S notes and hopefully I get what I'm wanting. It doesn't quite work that well.

It pulls up results. I can't quite figure it out. But the run one is definitely not fuzzy findable. Right. So the run one, you have to type in, like, the correct thing. You have to say the program you're going to run. Which I assume is the intent, right? Like, it's trying, it's trying to be more of a command line-like experience,

which is why I, this is why I assume that there are two, which is kind of weird, but like, you know. Yeah. So that's, that's the, that's the interesting one is that you get a more fuzzy find plus internet results, one for one and a no fuzzy find one for the other one. And so, but the updates to the one that nobody really generally, most people don't use, I assume. Yeah. That's an assumption, though.

I'm assuming it's more for people who just like, they, they, back in the day, they opened the start menu and selected run, which is how you originally got to this, or you learned the hotkey of WinR or something. And now that's just part of your workflow, so we tried to keep it, which I appreciate them doing. Like, they could have just removed it. Like you said, very few people probably use it in relative to their gigantic user base, but very few people in this case is still probably in the hundred thousands, right?

because Windows is so huge. I think I most often see it in, let's see, Kit Bogha videos where the guys are trying to scam him and they make him run command. That's the time I most often see the run menu as they say, open up run menu, type, and then they say something insane to type in there. By the way, TJ, just so you know, you can always disable search results if you wanted to. Oh, I can. I don't have any Windows computer. left now. Okay.

Just in case you wanted to. I tried. I tried. You can disable ads. It's like a, it's an available option. We talked about this recently. I literally tried to boot up an old Windows computer that I had so I could have it as a

Minecraft machine for my wife so that when we play Minecraft together, she just has one computer that we turn on and then it opens to Minecraft, basically. It got stuck in an update loop where I couldn't download. Minecraft because it was waiting for Windows updates, but Windows updates couldn't run because it was trying to run Windows store problems. And so they fought each other and I couldn't get an update or Minecraft installed on the machine. So I deleted everything and installed Linux and put Minecraft on there faster than I could get the Windows update. Minecraft, a Microsoft product. A Microsoft product. I had to run the Android emulated version

of Bedrock Minecraft on my Linux machine, which I installed from scratch faster than I could figure out how to get the Windows thing to work. Because I had to do that, because it was Bedrock one, that's the one that we're running for my kid. So anyways, it's crazy. I think Microsoft should just start shipping Linux.

I think it's over. I think they should just put, they could ruin that too? They should put a Windows logo on Linux and call it Microsoft Linux or something like that. Microsoft Winnet. just Windows 12.

That's all you have to do. That's just, it's Windows 12. Windows 12 is just Linux and they just, and they just like, send all their source code to the wine developers. Because as far as I'm concerned, it's over. Like, it's over. Like, it's over. Instead of Windows subsystem for Linux, it could be what would be the opposite of subsystem, something that consumes the others.

Windows Super system. There we go for Linux. Yeah. It's still WSL, but it's also co-pilot. It's called co-pilot WSL. Because people have been trying, I mean, people have been trying for decades

to get things fixed at this point now, and it's just, it's too late. Like, it's just like everyone was forced to go do other stuff now. That's why this is happening. No one wanted to do this. Like, Valve didn't want to make SteamOS. Like, I didn't want to change our machines here to Linux.

I was fine with Windows. They just, they forced us to do it by just never caring about what any of us think. And so now we're gone. I'm not coming back. It doesn't matter. Oh, great question. Can they win you back? What would Microsoft have to do to win you back?

They can't. Because I was, that's what happens. So when you have a customer who's been a customer for, you know, I don't know, 30 years or something or 25 years, I don't know, I'd have to go count how long it was. Since, since like the early 90s, probably, I would say, when I was like in high school. I think I started using Windows. But it doesn't matter. Like Windows 3-1 and stuff. So the point is, when you have a customer who's been with you that long and had all of their stuff like built on your system and was used to it and that was how they do their work, the amount of work you're asking them to do to leave is pretty substantial.

In order to get to that point, right, it's not a lot. like, it's not a trial separation. It's not a like, we're just going to take some time to find each other and then we'll come back and see if this marriage still works. It's none of that. This is a, like, I found you screwing the babysitter and we're getting divorced forever. And I will never speak to you again and I'm taking the kids. Like, that's how the Windows thing went with me. And I suspect that's how it went with a lot of people.

They were so bad for so long and so egregiously anti-user. that the people who left because of that are never coming back. Like, I'm never coming back ever. There's nothing you could do to win me back. I will die a user of some alternative operating system. The question that they would need to ask is, how do they stop

that from happening to more people? That's the only question left for them. Casey, I hear all those words you said, the babysitter all that, okay? But what if? Just hear me out here. You know, you know how Hollywood stopped having good and new ideas? What if? Windows

7 remastered Windows 7 Part 2 Windows 7 Performance Edition Just throwing it out there Whatever we went backwards Okay

Here's the thing is that's assuming That You know That's to continue my analogy That's just like saying I've changed What do you mean? Like how do I know

How do I know you're not going to go if I take, because now I have to do work to switch back to your platform, what, what guarantees do I have that you won't just start sucking again immediately, right? And none. You've demonstrated what kind of company you are. You've demonstrated how you treat your users. You've demonstrated institutionally what you think of us, which is you don't think of us. You don't care. When we repeatedly say, you need to fix this Windows update situation. When we repeatedly say that all of these things are broken. The explorer, like, the Explorer, if you accidentally drag an icon over a network share,

it pauses for several seconds unrecoverably. How long has that been in there? What is that? I don't know this one. You don't fix anything. I don't care anymore. I don't want to rely on you anymore, right? It's gotten to the point where some random people on the internet who put together a Linux

distribution and put up an ISO are more reliable to me than you. That is where you have gotten, right? in terms of what I think of your ability to provide software to me that I can rely on. It's over. It's done. There's no way, there's nothing you could do. I would go start working on Linux to fix it

before I would go back to Windows. So not even XP remastered. Oh, brutal. No. No, it's the, it's a loss of confidence, complete loss of confidence in the institution. Right? Okay.

But what about when? Windows dose. Oh, gosh, shut up. What about, what about if we had Ms. Daz? What about Mr. Doss? Oh, Windows Dose. I did not even get the dose quite. I didn't even get the joke.

The dose. I didn't even get it. I mean, that's just a joke. It's absurd. Mr. Doss, though, that's pretty funny. Here's what I will say. I don't remember if there was a Windows 2. I remember there was a Windows 1.

and I remember there's a Windows 3. I don't remember if there was a Windows 2. Was that? I never was. I started Windows in 3.1 era. I never got to, I never was on a Windows 1. I remember one was amazing.

You should go back and take a look. It's like it was a tiling window manager, Prime. What? Believe it or not. Oh my gosh. Windows could actually handle Windows well. Tiling, people are all like tiling window manager. Oh my God, it's the hotness like,

baby, I had that with Windows 1. You opened up a new window all. All your other windows shrank. That's what happened. All your other windows shrank. Look it up, kids. Oh, my gosh. That actually hurts me a little bit.

Bill Gates brought you the tiling window manager. All these nobs. All these nubs thinking Linux did that. Didn't do that. I knew it was a conspiracy theory. I knew what tiling window managers were conspiracy by the Gates Foundation. Look it up. DHS.

You think you're doing some friends with Hegel left. You're just Windows one, baby. You're just Windows one. Nothing new under the sun. Windows 1. Open up calculator. Like, it only had like three things. Calculator. Open up calculator again.

Oh, hey, Casey. Like, it was crap. Notepad. That's all you got. No, it was word perfect back in the day. Yeah, there was probably a couple apps that were actually important that people were using. I don't know what they were. But I just played around with it. I never used it for anything real.

True. I was a little kid. I was a little baby. The heck did I know. I feel like trash just hasn't had a lot to say. Trash, why don't you give us the last word? Oh, I was going to say I used to play Cuber and Family Feud on my Windows machine via Floppy Disc. What is Family Feud the video game?

If you, I was on Floppy, and I used to just play Family Feud for like 10 hours a day. I don't know, my Windows Machine. It was like the best time on my life. Tresh, how did you never bring that up after we hosted two Family Feudes? Like, we would have featured you more highly in the show if we knew you were such a super fan. Yeah, I mean, I just had nothing else to do. with my time, you know. Do you, in this, I don't remember the family feud game.

I don't think I've ever seen it. Is it like they give you the category of the thing, like, name something you pack for a vacation? Yeah, it was through that and you type it in, you type it in. You had to get an X just a screen. So it's either the scoreboard or like the X's and that was it. And I would just play that non-stuff. Do you have a virtual family on the thing or is it just the screen?

I don't think it actually had people. It was just, it was just like the thing's flipping. They didn't even flip. I mean, it was just showing the old days. This stuff was harder, right? I think Kuber was my other big one. We ain't coding it for them. And Digdug.

Digdug was another big one I played too. Dude, my son just discovered DigDug. We were out of Airbnb with some friends and I had a little arcade thing down there. So then we started, we started, you know, he's five. But we started vibe coding a DigDug alternative for him to be able to play. Because he really liked that in one of them. You could make like Jackhammer the ground. There was like a two point.

5D version as well. DigDug undercover or something? I don't know. Crazy. I don't know. They had other DigDug versions that I was unaware of, but I remember the original. And so we just started building one with him. It was pretty sick. I don't know DigDug.

What? I mean, I know Rampage. I know all the time. He's just basically digging around the screen. It's like 10 years later. Rampage is like a decade after DigDug. DigDug is way older. Okay, so maybe, maybe, okay, hold on. Maybe I do know DigDug by accident.

I do have a nice little Atari machine, a gigantic arcade machine that's an Atari machine with a few different games on it. And one of them is a thing where you dig through the ground and these enemies try to get you and you like shoot and it appears to be a pump at them.

Yes, that's dig-dug. And then you pump them three times and they pop. That's dig-duck. Oh, that's dig-dug? Okay. Inflate them and they burst. Yes, they burst. Yes, okay.

It's a very graphic game. You explode people. Yeah, it is kind of wild. Yeah. I think Doom was like the first game I played out of like gore in it. I was like, what's happening here? That was insane.

That was a good game. Mm-hmm. All right. Well, great final note, Trash. I appreciate that. You're welcome. You know, I actually feel bad for making you.

Trash brings the show together. Like, I don't know, man. We got to keep him on the show. I have like a very urgent. I have a very urgent Slack message. I was like reading it like nearly and I was like, I got like a dress of slack.

I guess go, Casey, what that means, though, too, is we have to make sure trash never gets rich because apparently as soon as he gets rich, he's leaving us behind. You gotta call Netflix be like, do not promote this man. He's questionable. He's a guy full time.

All right. Oh my gosh. So by the way, if anyone's, if we ever do a stand-up without the trash, you know why. Yeah. I'm rich. What's the meme where it's like,

if I become rich, like there will be signs. What's the phrase? it won't be obvious but there will be signs you guys know the thing I'm talking about yeah yeah yeah it's trash not it's our podcast with three people on it in FTC

the one the one episode before that happens the room he's in right now will just be it'll just be all Pokemon's are all like he's kind of like being crushed slowly by the sheer that is the dream boxes yeah that is the dream hopefully we get there yeah all right

well thank you very much for joining us for the stand-up. There was an alternative topic we might have talked about today, which was GitHub's big performance push as well. I was ready to talk about that. I was like, I guess we're not getting to that. Yeah, this went on a little bit too long. So that's something we'll probably have to do another time, maybe.

Anyways, thank you for joining us. The name is Casey Muratory Trash, Teage, Agen. It's a crazy name. Moot up the day. Vibeco. Errors on my screen. Terminal coffee and hair living