The Standup with ThePrimeagen - Indie Game Dev is Way Harder Than You Think

Episode Date: March 17, 2026

SQUASH THOSE BUGS with Sentry - the best way to monitor your bugs in production (we know you have a lot of them) and fix them with ease. Check out https://sentry.io and get started today! Wishlist Insignia NOW: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1127370/Insignia In this episode we talk with indie game developers Nolan and Adam about the weird and creative side of game development. From viral projects like 1 Million Checkboxes to building pixel art games and experimental multiplayer ideas, we dive into how developers actually make games, where ideas come from, and why making lots of small projects can lead to big breakthroughs. We also discuss indie game dev culture, programming tools, game jams, and the unexpected paths that lead people into creating games.

Welcome to the stand of today is a extremely special episode. We have Adam Eunice. We have Nolan EI-E-I-O. And of course, we have the master vibe coder Teage. What up? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, sorry. For those that do not know E-I-E-I-O, you probably know him through some of his epic games,

including one million checkboxes. And I forget if it's a million chessboards. I forget the exact name. What was it again? Yeah, one million chess boards. One million chess boards. I just couldn't believe it in my head, but it is truly one million chessboards. And then also, Adam, if you remember the tower, he is the pixel king Adam, making insignia of the game.

I believe it is wish listable and demoable at this point. Yeah. You got to go check it out on scene. Sign up or you're a loser. Yeah. Wishlist insignia on Steam, if you're not a broke boy, right? Wasn't that the song? That was the song.

That was the song. So this is a very special episode because this is going to be more towards game development. but we don't have our signature game developer Casey with us today. Instead, we're going to be talking about probably more of the lifestyle and the choices of what it takes to do more of the indie style gaming and what we're building. And I'd actually first like to start with Nolan, because fun fact about Nolan is he used to be a Jane Street boy.

And if you do not know this, Jane Street is a big fan of O Camel. So why are your games not ridden O Camel? Thank you. Finally asking the real question. I'm glad we're hitting hard at the beginning. Thank you. real journalism. This is, yeah. Journalism. You know, I think

this is the first time that anyone's asked me that, which might shock you. Yes. That does not shock me at all. But unfortunately, honestly, I think the answer here is. I wrote one tenth of a game engine in Okamil Prime. I'll have you know. Anyways, let's

let Nolan talk. No, so I think the answer here is kind of boring, to be honest. Like, the tooling that Jane Street has for writing Okamel is just phenomenal. It's so fun to write O Camel there. And at least, like, while I was there, writing it outside of the firm was just, like, way less fun than writing it there. I think that's changed a lot.

I mean, T.J., I don't know, like, you've definitely written O Camel more recently than me. You're having a good time. You're doing some vibing, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Maybe agents fix this. Maybe the tooling's just gotten better. But that was most of it.

tooling is the yeah that's the the ever I don't know the ever present oh camel problem of adoption is just like this compiled sometimes but then I can't get it to work on someone else's machine and I don't understand because this language should be easy to compile but whatever I we're not going to rant about okaymell but you should we can have you just come on stream sometime we'll hang out and write some o camel together would be fun oh be sick yeah yeah I miss okamel a lot nice we're going to make it the number one game dev we're going to take down unity. Brut down. What happened?

I don't know. Did you push? On a Friday? Never. How are we going to figure this out? How are we going to figure this out? Got it's your prods down? Do you guys need the wheel?

NeoVM config. That makes sense. I'm going to spend a couple hours for factory. Oh, meet the plugins. Don't guess where your issues are. You can see exactly where they are happening with Century. Get all the context you need to debug any problem. Because code breaks, so fix it faster with Century.

That's right. Yeah. Unity and O Camel. The two, yeah. The big computer since day one, and that's really like the field that O'Cammle's trying to just really... We're going to... Yeah, wait, so, Adam, you use Unity.

Why do you not use O'Camel? Great question. Honestly, I didn't know about O'Camel until I'm not busy. That's unfortunately also a common phrase. I've only had a year. Yeah, we'll give them some more time. We'll give them more time. Don't get him to do that.

distracted right now. He needs to finish Insigvia. That's the problem. Hey, we're in the day of agents, TJ. He can just do a quick rewrite. Oh, Camel. Just, hey, no mistakes. Translate it all. Boom. Oh, Camel. In games, though you have to say, make it fun. Not just make it secure. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yes. That's the key feature for you. Well, it's like, make a few mistakes. Make a few mistakes. But like fun, right? Like, fun little like speed running. Yes. Exactly. Make sure it's exploitable. make three subtle exploitable speed running glitches that will consume some people's entire life or at least like all of their like teens and 20s yes right yeah like we can you know but when they're 30 they can yeah they'll move on right we don't want to make such an addictive one that they continue

to speed run well into their late 30s that would be a little too much probably also they need to buy the sequel the refresh that we nostalgia drop when they hit 30 so we don't want to leave too many That's part of the problem there. Just enough for a summoning soul video. Now we're talking. That's the key. By the way, okay, since we're on this topic, did you know that Fortnite's rocket writing

was also an accidental exploit? Really? So if you don't know, if you shoot a rocket, someone else can jump and land on the rocket and ride it until it explodes or hits an object. And this was just a thing you could do. And Epic never intentionally put that in the game. They only accidentally discovered it was a thing.

later on. Prime knows that because he used to be a Fortnite streamer. True. I used to be a Fortnite streamer. That was how we got started. Look at you now. Oh, you guys, you guys were supposed to not say anything for longer. I was hoping that that would be like a 15 second pause.

Can we zoom it on Nolan's face? Because he just goes, hmm. He just like to processing. Yeah. I'd like to exit this interview. All right, all right, all right. Let's actually, let's actually get to some real question. And so I have to know because I think a lot of people want to know this.

Where did EIEI-E-I-O come from other than the childhood old McDonald's song? Okay. So it was my sister's first word. And when... Is E-I-E-I-O? That's right. It was the first like intelligible thing that she said, which I don't know. Maybe that tells you something about my sister.

That's for you to decide. Okay. And when I was like 13 or 14, and he just chose it as a name for the Team Liquid Starcraft forums. You all know Team Liquid? Yeah. I mean, dude, yeah. Yeah, which I've been...

That was a good era too. That was a good era. That was, I mean, I had so much fun. I was like, you know, staying up all night watching StarCraft in Korea. I have like a little sign up here. You can barely see. But it has like a little blue line at the top. That's from going to a professional StarCraft game a couple of years ago in In Seoul. But I picked the name there.

And then eventually I like started writing mostly about Dota, not StarCraft. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. And it wasn't, I mean, this is like right before e-sports became like big money, right? So it was still a little bit more DIY. Pre-international? No, this was like the first couple of internationals. But yeah, so, you know, whatever.

Things were taking off, but they weren't where they were now, which wasn't in the same spot. Yeah. But the point is that I have, like, the first time that I made internet friends was via Team Liquid. Right? Like I have a bunch of people that I know from the forums, from writing stuff, just from posting, you know, I have tens of thousands of posts there. And so then when I started making games, it wasn't really something I was planning to do for that bong.

The thinking was like, I hadn't been coding. I'd been managing. So I was like, I'm going to make some games to kind of remember how to code and then I'll go start a startup or something. And so I picked the name just because I was like, well, this is what my internet friends know me as. And like, it doesn't matter that much. Probably if I could like go back in time, I would maybe think a little bit harder about it. But that is the origin story. well if it makes you feel any better

Arnold was always told that he needs to change his last name because it was too hard as Snotson snitzel as his example that he would give that everyone would say but now his name is iconic it's the thing you say when you know Swartagnager's just like that's the word that is the man and so

you can be kind of EIAO when I see an article with EIEIIO and it you think manly you think Arnold Schwarzenegger right the connection instantly yeah instantaneously Governor material See follow-up question. Why Adam C. Eunice?

This big question here. Well, you know, it's just a name that stuck, you know, from birth. Couldn't shake it, you know. I have like a couple gamer tags, but they were never anything that anybody else called me by. And so it was never like, I never felt comfortable enough really sticking to one. And now, yeah, now I just use it. them to safely play online and not be recognized. Why the C?

Like, why are you Adam C. Eunice? Honestly, honestly, I, uh, John C. Riley, I'm a huge fan of him. I was like, that's crazy. That's brilliant. The middle initial, the middle initial makes him. I was like, oh, okay, reason. I was like, we do have a lot of room for activities.

So that makes sense. No, no, it was just, uh, I think, it was just the Twitter handle that I picked. And when I... I'm not going to tell the true story, but I think that's just what happened. I just picked the Twitter handle

and every handle after that. It's offline. Josh, don't cut this. I think it was like... I think it was a decision that I thought I made in an original thought. But I realized like a month later that a guy that I went to uni with

also had C in his like middle initial and also used it everywhere. And I think I just went, oh yeah, that's my, it's my name. And I mean, it is my name. But I think adding the C was him. I think he did that. And I just, yeah. It does kind of make you feel very distinguished, I feel like. Like I like, I think so too.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mine was because I, uh, my parents told me you can't pick an online name that you would get recognized by that. you would like say that you would doctor yourself so instead of tj de vries i pick tchdvue because i was really far away from that and then now my job is to get recognized on the internet so take that mommy dad uh no they actually like that i make videos there's a decent chance my dad will watch this and say like

you're so stupid why do you keep reading that up yeah dumb joke so hey dad took me if you're seeing this It took me forever to realize that it was T.J. Like, in my head, you were just T-G for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's like what a lot of people call, like, call me Teage. So that I was like, that works. But guess my actual first name, do you guys?

Prime, do you even know? Obviously, it's telescopic Johnson. Actually, that's so funny because a lot of people think that that's real still, which is insane. I made a plugin called Telescope for NeoVim. and like a lot of people I think were like I just told him like yeah I named it after myself

after we started this meme of calling me Telescope John's like that's crazy your parents named you that I was like yeah that's why I go by Teage though oh man your name's Timothy right

Timothy James Joel Timothy Joel yeah the full docks yeah the full docs yeah the full docs I think it's probably out there

I don't think it's super hard to figure out I'm pretty sure like you can find it with my social security number somewhere, I'm sure. Yeah, what was your, what was your social? Yeah, so that's, I wish I still had my beep, dude. I lost my, my goal XLR, bro. Yeah, I can't do my live beep anymore. But, yes, so anyways, enough about my username.

Oh, we do have to go back to that. When no one said I can't, I didn't know your name was Teage, it was like Teage being Clark Kent, and then pulling off the glasses and being Superman, it's just like, oh, Deach, T, T, Jack. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's a different guy. completely different guy out there. Anyways, all right. Well, I have plenty more questions, but TJ, would you like to maybe direct us into a more serious town here?

I can't believe you stole my okaymo question because obviously I was going to ask that part. I don't see your name on it. Oh, sorry. I don't see your name on it. I'm looking right at it right now. It has O camel in the question. That's mine. No, I was interested.

So you guys mentioned offline, not part, you know, before we were recorded, just null and some. of how like you got introduced to making games and part of that was through Adam which is part of the fun of like we wanted to have you both on at the same time so I thought maybe you could talk about that a little bit and just give a little bit of that backstory and just so you know so the listeners out there could hear that side too uh yeah yeah like backstory to like how I started making games like how I started making games maybe like three three years ago almost exactly three years ago. And originally, like, this was not really a thing that I was planning to do for particularly long. It was mostly a way to get back to coding. I love games. I played tons of games my whole life, right? I used to write about games. And started making games, like, really small games and, like, Godot. I think, like, one bit of advice that you see a ton on the internet. I think it's really hard to give good advice about game development. But one, I think very broadly applicable, often repeated bit of advice is just make a ton of games, right?

Like make, you know, don't, like the classic mistake is that somebody makes an MMO that takes them four years and nobody plays it. And, you know, they learn so much along the way. So I was making these tiny little games in Godot and found Adam stuff because I was trying. I, like, made all of this pixel art and it all looks terrible. And I was like, so, like, there's this weird thing when you're bad at something where you don't understand what, like, you don't even have the, like, faculties to understand why it's bad. You're just kind of like looking at it and you're like, this is, this is terrible. And I don't know the first step towards fixing it. And I never got, I never got good at pixel art.

I ended up kind of moving away from making more, more typical games into the weird stuff that I do now. But one thing that I remember really enjoying about Adam's channel, and sorry, Adam, to compliment you live, is I think a lot of the stuff that you see on YouTube about making games is super edutainmenty, right? Like the audience of people that kind of want to imagine themselves as game developers is much larger than the set of people that actually have the time to sink into making a lot of games. I mean, I think also probably the audience of people that wants to talk about games is larger than the audience of people that actually makes games and can talk about those in a compelling way. And so I think early on I was watching all this other content. Right. And I would watch this video and I'd be feeling like I was learning a lot and then I'd try to think about like, what did I actually learn from this? And the answer is like nothing.

right, like nothing applicable to making stuff. But when you watch people that are actually doing the work and talking about their decisions, I think you learn a lot more there. So that is how I ended up finding Adams work, and I made slightly better pixel art, learn things like your pixels should be the same size, and to use a consistent color palette and other dead simple things that I think are in literally my first blog on the site.

But yeah, that's the background. And I think no one played any of the games that I made in that era. Not literally nobody, but like I got like a hundred players for my second game. And I was like, oh, this is incredible. It's funny because that's also basically the way that I found Adam was I was just playing around with making some games. Just like the concept of making game. And then I found Adam's channel. And I also really liked the art.

And then me and Prime somehow found ourselves in a scenario where cursor was like, yeah, you guys can make a video game. go ahead to do it in a water tower. Just put the game in the bag, bro. And I was like, well, I don't know what to do. And we were both like, I don't know. And I was like, well, the coolest person I know that makes art for games and makes games is Adam. I don't know him at all.

I've only watched his YouTube videos. And he happened to be in the U.S. Well, in the first time since when, Adam? That was a year ago today, by the way. Yeah, yeah. That was literally today a year ago. No. One year.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's crazy. That's cool. Yeah, I was in San Francisco for GDC. And you just, you guys just reached out. And I was like, oh, I'm going to be around.

And I hadn't, yeah, I hadn't been in the U.S. since 2011. Yeah. Yeah. And then it was like, okay, well, do you want to fly down and make a game in a water tower with us? We're doing a 24-hour stream. And that's how the friendship started, which was awesome. So Ken second, him being really good at making YouTube videos

if guys aren't following him. You definitely should. And he makes really good pixel art. It's addictive to watch. Yes. Very true. Very true. He's the pixel king. Okay, so then, Noel, so you were starting off, you found some stuff there, and then, like, how did you kind of transition out of, like,

making some more, like, a dough-based stuff into, like, making crazier things? Yeah. So, do y'all know what the Recurce Center is? It feels like something you might know about. I don't think so. No, okay. This is going to sound like almost like an ad, I swear it's not. So early, like middle of that year, I went to this place called the Recurce Center,

which is like a thing in Brooklyn that's kind of like a writer's retreat, but for programming. Oh, cool. Like you show up for like six or 12 weeks. It's free. They like make money with like placing people in jobs or something. It doesn't really matter. But the point is like you're in this room with other people that think it would be fun to program for six or 12 weeks on stuff that isn't for their job, right? Mm-hmm.

And I've known about it. for a while, it's like 20 minutes for me. But I was there and I started kind of experimenting with like doing weirder things. I remember the first thing that I did that was Stranger was do you know the open search spec? No, no.

This is, okay, so you know like in Chrome if you type in like a website URL and you hit tab. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it like lets you search that website directly, right? Yep. So like you need a spec for that. Like the browser, like how does the browser know what endpoint to hit

in order to like search that website? It open search is that spec. It's just an XML document. You throw, you mention it like the head of your index file. And yeah, no, I mean, it's old, right? There's also like 14 things called open search, but this is the open search spec. So I happen to know or I kind of like remember that there's this extension to the spec that lets you offer search suggestions. So like you can offer an alternative endpoint and you like hit that endpoint and the endpoint returns back like suggestions for what you might be searching for, which makes a lot of sense.

Did you make a dungeon crawler? I didn't make a dungeon crawler. But I was like, you know what? All you need for a game is like you're typing. Like you have some input mechanism and some output mechanism. And this works, right? Like you type a character. It hits this endpoint.

The endpoint return suggestions. The suggestions are automatically displayed in the browser. Like you can make a game there. And so I made Wordle. Oh, that's funny. I called Wardle, not knowing that that is Josh Wardle, who created Whartle's last name. And then like met him like a year later. to you. That was funny. But, um, so I made that and I was like in this environment where instead of

just kind of making it and shipping it off into the void, there are all these like nerds around who are like, wait, this is like, this is kind of funny. This is, this is compelling. Um, and someone posted on hacker news. It's the first time that I got on hacker news. And I think like that is how I started kind of narrowing in. I'm like, oh, I like, like, it's funny to make computers do weird things. It's funny to make jokes. Um, and so I started noticing, like, I went back and I made some more traditional games while I was there. And I remember the last thing that I made, it was like a tiny little vampire survivors clone. Oh, nice.

Like, you know, people were like doing all sorts of things like that, right? Because vampire survivors had just popped off. Yeah. And I was showing it at this gameplay test and people were giving me feedback and I could like feel myself because I'd made some more weird stuff by them. I could feel myself like not like being like, I don't want your feedback. Not because like it's not good feedback because like I'm in, I don't want to make games like this. And like you're giving me advice on like a thing that like I wish I hadn't made.

Because like everyone around me, it was at this, the bar that we were talking about earlier, had all these like weird, interesting experimental things. And I'm just not, like, I'm much better at that than I am at building like a beautiful, well thought out, you know, kind of within genre game. So that's kind of where I think that was the thing that really pushed me towards getting weirder and weirder and weirder. I do have to say, I thought it was the most programmer description of a game of all. time was, well, you just have some inputs and then you have outputs. So it's like, that's a game. Yeah.

It is. So this is, I think about this a lot with like the stuff when I'm making a game that is running in another application. So like that or like I have like Flappy Bird running in MacOS Finder or whatever. Right. That is how like the terms that I'm thinking of. You like find like a surprising way that an application gives you input and output. Like for example, in MacFinder, I can query to determine that you have clicked on a file.

And like that is that is sufficient input. and then output can be renaming files. This is a terrible way to think about like real games that people want to play. But it's a great way to invent games that you can write blog posts about that people are in that reach. Which, hey, that's a whole new genre of games. But it does work.

And they are funny, so it makes sense. Yeah, I think if I made, if that's all I did, I would get a little sick of it. But it's really fun sometimes. Yeah. Is there like, do you ever have a, like a personal win condition for a game? Like is it, oh, I need for the player to feel this?

Or is it more like a personal expression thing? Like, how do you, when do you know when something's finished? Oh, that's a good question. And I would love to hear your answer to this as well. I think it depends a lot for like the bigger multiplayer experimental stuff. thing. I think it's kind of vibes. Like, I think a lot about, like, how are people going to ruin this? And I want to be really confident that it's hard for people to ruin it, right? Because that's just, like, you get kind of get one shot. And if, like, a bunch of people go to the website and it's just like slurs and porn or whatever, you know, depending on how people want to ruin something. It's just like not fun. That's very typical internet too. Yeah, yeah. And it's, yeah. And it's just like, it just happened. Right. And this, this sucks. But if you don't do something about it is what people do for kind of the smaller, like, the smaller, like, the. way I think about this is that I make games and then I also make things that aren't really games.

Like the wordle thing, no one's going to play that. That exists so that I can write the blog about it, right? And teach people something interesting in this weird mechanism. And there, I think it's kind of when there are no more problems left to solve. Like I get to a point where I'm like, this technology is not meant to run again. Like it's, you know, macOS, I pushed MacOS finder to four frames a second. I had to add like double buffering to it. It was a lot of work.

And like this is like where we call it. I can't make it any any faster. And so that's normally well I'll do. And sometimes I get to that point and like the game just isn't interesting enough. And so I just don't post about it. Do you have like a lot of like ideas that you started that just didn't just didn't go anywhere? Not that many. Like I'd say like more often than not I finish what I start.

That's great. I think it's like close. you know, it's probably like 60, 40 or something. Wow, that's a much better ratio than anybody I've ever met in my entire lifetime. I was going to say, though, Adam, you can't get away from the reverse question, though, because Nolan wanted to hear your answer, and I want to hear your answer too. Yeah, I'm also, I'm curious. I know, like, you've both done, like, Game Jam.

Like, I remember you placed really well at a Ludumdare a while ago, and then you also have these really long running things. Yeah, I mean, I am such a. like a boring case of a gamer because like I literally just have that the exact story everybody else has of like you know I grew up and I had a Super Nintendo

and I was obsessed with that and then I got a PlayStation and I was obsessed with that and you know by the time I was maybe like 11 or 12 I was like I want to make games so this is what I want to do so I think I just for the big game it's really just me trying to channel the feelings that I got playing like Final Fantasy 10 into a project and wanting other people to feel that.

And so because it's such a conventional shaped thing that I'm making, it's done when it's finished, you know, when I can get to the credits and you can, you know, it's got 20 hours of content and side content and blah, blah, blah. For the smaller games, that I feel like comes a lot more from a more, like I studied design at university. So the idea of like hacking stuff together and prototyping and wanting to explore a concept, that get that itch gets scratched by the smaller projects. And so yeah, I feel like they are two very different modes.

And I've tried sort of in the middle as well. I had like a couple of six month projects. Those can be fun too. I think the tough part is then like when a project needs to become a product and you have to like support it as a piece of. software or something like that. There's like a threshold there you have to cross over when you release something. And the more time you spend on it, the more it has to sort of justify the time you spent. So yeah, I tend to stick to one end of the spectrum at a time. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think like game jams are so nice for the like, I'm just going to express this one idea, right? And then like maybe a lot of people find it compelling and you do something else with that. But like having the freedom to do that without the like, I worked on this for six, months and so I feel like I should get something out of it. Yeah, the type of thing. It's really, yeah. Oh, speaking of just as a fun aside, our buddy cakes, we should link it Prime in the description of this video.

He's a longtime Twitch streamer friend. He just released his Tower Defense game. He's been working on a Twitch for like four years. We should just give it a shout out. I am giving it a shout out right now. The link will be in the description for other people. This is not an ad. It is just he's a friend of ours

who raids us a lot on Twitch and I want to make sure we're shouting him out everywhere because he finished a project on stream for four years. So it's awesome. So people should go check that out. That just reminded us of cakes. Yeah, I went out cakes. Yeah.

And yesterday I was, I opened up Steam to play a game that you may have heard of, Slaved the Spire 2. And when I opened it up, me and my son are doing a little co-run together. Oh, nice. And I opened it up, it said, it said, hey, tower defense mania or something like that.

And I was just like, see more. said, here's a bunch of games of tower defense. It was like balloons and then tangy was number six. Nice. That's sweet. Yeah. Yes. Stope.

So anyways, that was just a quick aside that I wanted to make sure because I was thinking, oh, we have a friends on who make games. We also have to talk about our other friend who just released a game. So anyways, Adam, the question I was going to ask you, though, was from any of your, like, smaller projects where you're working on, like, Game Jam or something else, you take any of those ideas, put them in insignia, like any good examples? Actually, there was one recently that's not from a game jam at all. We had like an on-stream game we used to play called, well, we call it just clinkers.

It's like a, there's a food, it's like a candy in Australia that is covered in chocolate, and there's only three, there's like three kinds in a packet, but you don't know which you're eating until you eat it because it's covered in chocolate. So we just use it as like gambling in the stream, so people redeem points and I bite into one and they guess and if they guess correctly, I've put an Easter egg in the game. And we've, we've, we've decided that, uh, we're not doing it anymore because, um, one, I don't think, I think they're phasing it out, but also like, I can't stand the taste of them anymore. Like I've like so many of these things over like six years now. It's like killing me. So, um, it's in the

game now, or at least it will be. We're going to, we're going to put like an in game. Uh, it's like a one in three chance thing. So that, that happened. Uh, there were times when, uh, there were times when, I would do a game jam. Like we've thought about specifically working on like an insignia in game mini game through a jam. Certainly like yeah, a few different ideas have sort of crept in.

Actually, yeah, like one of the main mechanics in the game came from a jam. Oh, nice. Yeah. Say more about that. Yeah. Okay. A game I made called Trauma back in,

I think it was 22 maybe or 2020. One of those. I think my therapist told me about this. Yeah, that's what it's, it's kind of like, it's a platformer where you play as a girl who's in therapy. And the way that you play it is, it's a platformer and you get like abilities that send you off in different directions in the screen. So like to clear a jump, like she can't jump on her own. She can only move around. And you have to touch these like specific like trauma points to like read about or like to like prompt conversations.

And then once they're kind of like little puzzles. and once you solve a puzzle and you kind of like heal the drama you get to like you get like a card and then you play that card to use the ability so like at first you'll look over a little node

and it'll like throw you away but then like after you've solved the little puzzle like you'll use that node and the card you get from it to like this is a jump card or this card thrust you forward or and by the end you get like six or seven cards and you can chain like a really long jump sequence

just you're just pressing space to play the cards, but you're starting at one point and sort of like clearing this crazy like Celeste style gap. So yeah, that the ability of like the concept of chaining like directional style abilities into like one big platforming leap. That's kind of like what insignia's ability system kind of of yeah, that's how it works. All right. I got I got I got something for you, Nolan. So I my favorite blog that you wrote was the one million checkboxes blog. And the reason being is that as you started off, you started off with this like really simple concept.

I want to send a million checkbox down that people can like look at and and click. And it's a very like approachable and consumable idea. You're like, okay, I get everything you're about to say. But then you start going, okay, well, how do I send the data down? Okay. Like this is actually a really big problem because a million of anything is a big number. right like it's just it's just a big number to send it down and so i can't just send down like a jason map or an array that's encoded in in jason because it's just going to be huge and so you start kind of

going through this process of like working through and sending down the data through binary stuff through you know i forget if it was web sockets that you sent it down via or whatever it was and he ended up having to pack everything down into bits and then you talk about okay well at first my infrastructure was in python and then that just was not going well so i switched to go and Things went way better for whatever reason. Magic, I guess. Crazy. Yeah, I don't know why.

It's crazy how compiled languages are just so much better at that kind of stuff. And so I just, I love that process of going from, I'm going to build an idea to this is actually how an idea can realistically execute. How often at this point do you still run into a situation where you've learned as much as you did, say, on a million checkboxes? Because now you've seen a lot. You've seen some shit. And so now it's like, okay, well, I'm not going to.

to start off in Python on a single box. I'm going to, you know, you kind of like, you pre-plan for some things to come down. Yeah. So I've been thinking about this a lot. Like the firefighting like that, right? Like I launch one million checkboxes. It's like a single small VM. It's running in Python. It's like, you know, people are going great. You know, there are hundreds of thousands of people trying to check boxes. Firefighting like that is just really fun, right? Like you also learn a lot. But like, it's super motivating, right? Like you learn exactly what you need to do. to keep the site up for the next like two hours. Whereas these days I'm, you know, just thinking a lot more about like, okay, like, let's imagine a number of people, like for the snake game, right?

I mean, like a game that you play over our sH, it's like a massively multiplayer snake. For something like that, I'm like, all right, what's a number that's insane? You know, 2,500 people are not going to concurrently play my stupid SSA snake game. So let's make sure that we support that out of the box. And then, like, I did that. And like, I could support that. but it might have been more fun to like launch that game without really thinking about performance at all

and then seeing what broke. So I think like I don't, I don't want to say I don't, I don't learn anymore or anything like that for the chess game that I made last year. I still learned a lot. But it's harder, right? Like, in a way I'm prematurely optimizing, right?

And it's like hard to say because I am putting things out on the internet. There are a lot of scary thing. Like, I don't want, like, a massive bandwidth bill that I wake up to or something like that. So there are things that, like, you actually do really have to think about. But I don't know. I kind of feel like I should be moving a little bit faster, especially since sometimes the things that I'm preparing for just, like, truly don't matter. Or, like, they are just content, right?

Like, I think the decisions that I made for the snake game that I made recently were primarily because I just wanted to learn a lot about how to write a super efficient terminal application. but I didn't make that choice. My users didn't make it for me. It was a very good blog, by the way, the SSH stuff. I really enjoyed how you put together, especially the Unicodes and the vertical movement. Classic first problem of any terminal game. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I thought you were going to say you really liked how we gave Terminal a shout-out. That's what I thought you were going to say. That was why you really liked the blog post. It was a good shout-out. It was real. It is funny, though, because you would think, you know from just like oh i'm going to make something that runs in the terminal you're like oh it can't take a lot of bandwidth or it can't take a lot of data but we ran into this too

and some of the early stuff for terminal shopping we ended up not having to fix it to the same extent because it's not like updating as often it just updates when people take action so we don't have to redraw i think at one point we were sending down like the first hour it was like 60 frames a second no matter who was coming the the thing that we did initially that made us send an insane amount of data was we had a big, a huge React Miami logo. And it was saying like, coming soon. And so you SSH in and it was just like, you know, coming soon. But then we had something in there that was like spinning or something that made it.

So we had to like send her a fresh or no, you know what it was. It might have been my coffee because I did build a particle system. No, pretty sure we never put that in the application. So I actually think it wasn't even. We didn't even redraw it. It was just something with one of the, like, charm things where we had a timer running somewhere. So it just forced a refresh of, like, their framework. So it was like counting down the seconds until we said we would release.

And so every second it would send down, or like a bunch of times a second, I think the default ticker, would send out this huge, I don't know, because we made you have to zoom out to look at it because we wanted the picture to look cool. Yeah, it was like 1,000 by 2,000 or something. No, right. No. Yeah. Yeah. And then, well, we took a picture and we did the, like, picture to Ancy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? So we took a physical picture, I'm saying, right? And so it had, like, a million terminal escape sequences in it, right? Because it was, like, every, every character had its own, like, make it a different color and make some of them bold. Slowly going from pink to more pink. Right. Like, it was just, it was the worst possible case.

So every, every character had probably, like, at least, you know, 10 to 15 characters we were sending, right? And then we made you zoom out to be like, oh, we can't show this at, you know, 40 by 80 or something like that. You had to be at like 100 by 800. And then we just were sending that like 60 times a second for no reason. It was a static image. I just remember that like Dax comes out.

I was like, guys, we sent like 100 gigabytes in the last hour. And we're just like, huh. How do we do that? At that point, we were like, is the whole? selling coffee over S's H thing. Are we just screwed? We were like, maybe we can't even build this as an application.

It's the coffee that's the problem. It's the coffee that's the problem. I thought for sure the problem with our margins was going to be trying to get good coffee to people and physical products, but it turns out it's just bandwidth. Just bandwidth. It's just bandwidth.

It's just egress costs from our container. We did eventually figure out, oh, when there's a timer running, it resents this. So we fixed that eventually. but I was cracking up about some of it because you just can't even imagine that you're going to have this bandwidth problem over SSH because it seems absurd. It's text. It can't be that big.

It's text. Turns out it can be. I don't know, Nolan, if you want to talk about for people who haven't yet, yet, read the blog post, some of the fun stuff you did for the snake game. Yeah. I mean, my favorite thing that I did was that I, like, patched. the GoSSH library, which I wrote like a whole, a whole separate library, or a whole separate blog post about because this was so wild to me.

But like the gist of that, right, is I'm working on the game, working on the game, doing all this profiling because I want the game to be super fast. And I make like a one-line change. And so I make this change and my CPU usage drops by like half. And like at this point I'm running like I have like a harness with like 500 bots that are connecting, sending moves. And yeah, so CPU. usage drops by half and I'm like thrilled right like I'm like oh man like this change like I've done

something awesome so I'm exploring that I'm trying to figure out like why because this was not a change that's supposed to make things faster like why why did that work and I realized like actually all I had done was I had broken my harness like instead of my bots getting data um they just got a single message that said your screen size is too small um I had like broken because like SSH there's like TTIY's like whatever you know the details here don't really matter but I had broken my testing harness and that's performance improved because I wasn't really testing my game. But then I'm like thinking and I'm like, wait, if my bots weren't receiving any data for my game, why did performance only drop by half? Right. Like, why did performance not drop by 99%? That doesn't make any sense. So I start capturing

packets and like looking at all of that and eventually like see that if you're just SSH to a box and you press a single key, SSH sends, you know, like about 90 packets. And what's going to on there is that there's the SSAH is doing something called keystroke obfuscation. The basic idea is that if I see what letters or what keys, sorry, the timing at which you are pressing keys, but nothing else. Like all I have is like key press, key press, pause, key press. Well, that pause, maybe that means that you're reaching for like a, you know, the number pad or something like that. Like you're pressing something that's harder for you to get to. So SSAH just send junk data all the time to like obfuscate the actual key presses that you're making.

But it sends like, the way it works is that it perpetually sends this junk data as long as you, whenever you press like one key. And that's really bad for games because you're pressing like one key a second. The junk data gets sent for about one second. And so it's like one key press turns into 101 packets. And this is not something that you're supposed to be able to disable. Right. Like, I found the patch and I, like, read through the SSAH code and was like, if I just pretend, if I, like, claim to the client that I'm just running an old version of SSAH that doesn't know about, or SshD, the, you know, the server side component that doesn't know about this feature.

Maybe they won't send these junk packets to me. And that totally works. So I did that. And then I posted about it. And a bunch of nerds got really mad at me because I wrote this whole blog. Yeah. And I didn't acknowledge, like, the blog starts out with, like, I am working on a high performance. game over SSH. And I just like deadpan say that without acknowledging that that's deranged.

But it like broke containment. Like it made it to people on like hacker news or Reddit or whatever who don't know the type of stuff that I normally do. So the right comments are just people being like this you know, this dumbass vibe coder has no idea what he's doing. Like yeah stupid he is. Yeah, because people are typing in their passwords to very secure boxes over your connection to the snake game. I don't even know. I don't know what they were mad at me about. Well, we, yeah, it's funny because we had the same, well, we had this problem and we chose to keep it in because we were worried about someone actually somehow finding something you could exploit over that way.

But we had a bunch of people complaining too of like, they're harvesting people's public keys, which was the funniest. That was a real complaint. Oh, I got this too. Yes. Yeah, it's like, yeah, I'm going to, what am I going to do? your public key. I know it was the funniest complaint and like tons of up votes and people like, this is,

this coffee site is a scam to from big data to get all of your public keys. And you're like, what am I going to do with only the public key? I don't know. Do you know what the first word of public key is? I know. It was like, it was so funny. Yeah. So I, similar, similar thing of people getting very upset.

about this when you're like, I think it's okay, guys. Like, it's, it's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, it's not like you tried to upstream it back to go and get them to remove it or so like, it's, you know, no, but I did ping, so the recurs, the place I mentioned earlier, Oh, yeah. Leopo, the go, one of the go crypto maintainers is also a recourse alum. And so I pinged on like the recurs chat to be like, am I like, is this really stupid? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Am I fired if I do this? And he was like, for your game, it's fine. Don't worry about it. Yeah, yeah, right. Thank you, Felipe. Had the official author's approval. Just reply with a screenshot.

to all those people getting upset. I've got receipts. I got receipts. By the way, I do. Can I make a quick shout out for your SSH blog? So if you haven't checked it out, you should go check it out. But this was my favorite joke of the entire thing, which is, why does the snake game render strangely for me?

Snakes. Snakes. Run makes use of unicode block elements. Since these were added in 1991, your terminal may not fully support them yet. For example, Mac OS's terminal app renders them poorly. Try using a different terminal. It's like my favorite thing in the universe is this thing right here. This was...

I cannot tell you how many issues I got in NeoVim from people using Terminal app and being like, NeoVim's broken. It can't do colors. And you're like, I don't understand how. And then turns out, oh, this, the default terminal, Matt can't figure out how to update? No, you can't update it.

It's so bad. The technology, the private key to the repo was lost. and so they just have the same thing since 1989. It's so frustrating. It's actually stuck in 1989. It's old. Prime, that site that you had up, I just want to note that in keeping with the SSH aesthetic,

the whole site uses tables for layout and only HTML that was available in 1995 with no CSS, which I was very proud of. Nice. Tables for layout actually kind of sick. Like, kind of fun. Tables for layout actually really good. It's actually really good.

Yeah, it was like, honestly. you know what? Really easy to think about. You guys heard it here first. It's coming back. After this podcast, you're going to start seeing tables for layout. The Google search trends, big.

What about frames? Remember frames bring those back? Like eye frames? First off, eye frames are all over the place. You go to any news. Okay. Now you got me. Now you're going to ruin my life.

And now I'm going to be very upset. You go to any of the news outlets. We're talking about it. It doesn't matter what it is. Tech Crunch. The only news outlet I go to is the prime timogen. Okay. Right.

I'm timed it. Well, I synthesize this for you. But if you go up on your tabs and you look at, you can highlight and hold something over and it'll tell you how many megabytes. Like Twitter right here, while having an actual video right here of Doom being loaded and being played,

is taking up about 211 megabytes. It says it right there. If you go to any news place, it will be 1.5 gigs every single time. And then you go and you start perusing their code. And it's all just these big videos being. pushed into iFrames and it's just insanity going on in the website. I frames, the devil.

I just want to throw that out there. But they're very fun to play with. You could totally do that. I made an entire business. I friend's game in coming. On Facebook, the old Facebook apps they used to have way back in the day, I'd load an eye frame, do authentication through an eye frame and through the URL. Quick proposal for a game.

I don't know what it needs to be, but we need something about eye frames, but it's like both the eye frame and the internet way, but also the dark souls. way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like both. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Something about them makes you invincible. I don't know how. I trust Nolan's brain to figure that out in six months. That's inputs and outputs right there, Nolan. That's inputs outputs outputs outputs. That's inputs outputs. Input out, eye frame. Output, eye frame. Think about it. I had a friend, I don't know what happened to this project who was working on a thing because Blue Sky still has a fire hose, right? Like you can get all of the data from Blue Sky. Yeah. And so you get a site. It's more than you'd think, right?

No, so he just made, it was a site that had an individual eyeframe for every image and every video that anybody posted to the site, like scrolling, like as fast as it could. It was like actually pretty sick. It was fun to watch. Yeah. But I don't know, maybe it's too scary to put online. Spencer, if you're listening. There you go. New blog posts as well.

Get that up. There's definitely something in like the Game Jam community. I don't know why, but it's kind of like, you know that thing about it. about how everything evolves into crabs. In game jams, there's this thing where guaranteed, at least one entry in every game jam is a game where the game is being played across multiple, like, viewports, like multiple windows or multiple, it's like a platformer and your character jumps between the way. So maybe there's an eye frame idea there where you have like multiple eye frames, but it's one game being played across them. Oh, dragable eye frames to solve puzzles.

That's... Ooh, something like that. I was just playing. With I Frames Soulslike? It has to be. Yeah. Eye, he's cooking. Still, yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right, no, can't cook on stream. Can't cook on stream. You have to think about that one after. That just reminded me. You got, yeah, that, like, hit me. All right. It hit him. You just nerdsnipe him.

You just changed his next six months, TJ. Yeah, yeah, sorry. I apologize. I did not mean to do that to you, but I am excited for I frame, iFram squared. Yeah. I have to ask this for both of both you two. I know it's a very,

topical question and it you know this is invaded every part of our life so i'm actually very very curious about this nolan with all of your we'll start with you with all of your uh kind of adventures in doing these little projects obviously you do a but i assume you're doing these for like learning and they're kind of just like funny and it's kind of like this this in-between ground of learning and just making something ridiculous out of inputs outputs as you say how much do you uh leverage AI using this kind of stuff. Like, where is it fun to continue, or is it just like a no-no or is it all using it? It depends a lot. So, like, as an example, I was working in something last week that was mostly, I don't want to say, like, fully vibe-coded. Like, that doesn't feel fair. I think I was

thinking about it more than that. But resulted in me, like, I made this thing that, like, puts the bouncing DVD logo over Claude Code when Cloud Code is thinking. And then I really liked where that was going. Like, I liked the... kind of power that I had there, but the code was not great. And I wanted to turn that, or am turning that into like a broader thing that lets me like run arbitrary games on top of arbitrary terminal applications, which I'm really excited about. And so what I ended up doing was rewriting most of that code by hand. I think separately, but kind of similarly, a thing I run into with a lot of stuff is I want to write about it, right? Like I want to explain on my blog how I thought

about this, how things worked. And if I'm just kind of like, all right, you know, put the DVD logo inside yourself, make no mistakes, and then like try to blog about that, right? The blog is pretty boring. I said no mistakes. And then it did it. No mistakes. Yeah.

Yeah. And then it made a mistake. And I was like, can you please fix your mistake? And, right? Like, it's just bad. It's bad. And some of the fun, right, of all of this is, like, understanding. So, I don't know.

I think I use it as a project. to typing tool. I use it a lot to write stuff that I already know how to write. And I don't know, probably swapping kind of using agenetic stuff a lot, but also using like cursor tab is still just really good. Like I love writing in VS code. We're writing in cursor by hand, but without boilerplate.

Nice. Not an ad, but could be. Not an ad. But fully agree with you too. Cursor tab. Right. Yeah. I think it just it doesn't change the experience. in the same way, right? Like, like, it purely removes stuff that I don't want to deal with while still letting me do the thing that I've loved doing for my whole life. So, Adam, also, I'd love to hear your side, because I know that I mentioned this on a

different podcast, but effectively in 2000, hold on, let me just get up the exact numbers, in a 2024, 18% of people at GDC said, hey, we don't, we don't really like agent or we can. considered harmful to the industry. By 2025, it was at 30%. And as of today, as of just the last little bit since last GDC for 2026, it's at 52%

say that Gen AI is largely negative for the industry. And so you are kind of in the thick of it because you're in like the end part of a game. You already have like a lot of established patterns. And so a lot of the conventional wisdom around it all is like, this is a great time to be like, yo, there's this bug. Tell me about it. And it's just like,

here's the bug right here. Are you using it much in that? Do you find that it's any useful. How does it kind of change in the last couple years your development? This is a, I could spend the rest of the podcast talking about this. I would say like it, because I started working on the game before there was any, anything like this. For me, like there's obviously like the personal, you know, like the fun and the experience of learning how something works and building something. I feel like we all kind of, you know, relate to that. And there's obviously the fear that that will go away if the computer is doing more than you're doing less

and so there's just less of you there's just less reason to be interested or less yeah it's just like less uh the more gaps get filled by the by the i i do use it like i i don't i don't really vibe code i feel like my my code base for insignia it just it's not compatible like there's so much logic in there that's that's written by me that i'm not really asking it to do it. anything boilerplate or like you know simple anymore it's like okay I'm trying to thread these two things together I do I do tab a lot like when I'm if it's just something that's helping me get where I'm going with fewer keystrokes then it's fine but I need to know I need to basically mentally sign off on every line and maybe I've thought like is this just a

control thing but no I really do think like it's better for everyone if if there's a human who understands how everything works. In terms of like the game industry and how that affects it, I mean, I think the game industry has already got a problem with quantity versus quality. And so I think the biggest fear is that the sea of like just slop that makes it hard to curate games that people have really put a lot of energy into or that are worth people's attention is just it just becomes harder to curate when there's just more and more stuff. And I guess as with a lot of industries, like AI has this quality of being insanely powerful,

but also at the same time, the people who it can most appeal to are people who aren't qualified to make good designs. Like they're just entry level, trying to get in. And the fact that the concept of something being able to do all the hard stuff for you is really appealing to people who can't write it themselves. So what kinds of games are they going to make? That's kind of the, yeah, the fear, I guess. It's an interesting idea that, because it is, if you're releasing an indie game on Steam, like I remember when a tangy TD, speaking of that, when he released, one of the first comments I saw on his chat was, dude, I can't believe you released it right after

Slay of the Spire. And so there's already like this whole thing where people talk about like, oh, release collision, you're totally screwing yourself if you release right next to some other big title and all this. And so I can't believe. can imagine that if the amount of releases increases by 100x, it doesn't matter if your game is like several standard deviations more fun than everybody else. You have an entire like C now to kind of swim through as opposed to just like, oh, there's a few releases today. There's also, I think a reason I think that people in games are more opposed on average to AI is that a lot of people that aren't software developers do stuff in games, right? And I think that

like Gen. AI for people that are artists is probably, on average, more threatening, right? Like, if, uh, there are a lot of people that need a lot of art assets for, there are a lot of people who don't care really what the assets look like, right? They want an asset for like, uh, they're writing a blog and they want a little header image, right? And, uh, now they're never going to pay, or a lot of those people aren't going to pay someone to do that. Right. Right. And that is taking work away from people that maybe make really beautiful art and then also make a living partially kind of making these things for people that are less likely on average to pay them. So I don't know. When I've talked to people in the games

industry, I feel like there's an awareness of kind of the broader whatever stuff that GenAI is doing, whereas a lot of this, you know, like tech, Twitter discussion is very focused on coding, right? Yeah, there's definitely this like, I try to come at it from different sort of like, ethical perspectives. Like you can, it's very easy to say like, you know, AI took our jerbs kind of thing. And I think there's a, there's an argument that someone could make to say,

well, those jobs don't deserve to exist anymore. And there'll just be some other job that people will do instead. That, I mean, I don't mind if people are sympathetic or not to that, but it's definitely a thing. Like, I, right now, like I'm, you know, budgeting next part. in my game. I've got, you know, people who work with me, who I pay, and they produce assets. And if I could just, if I just do the plain, you know, economic, what's cheaper and what can I get away with? Yeah, I could easily, like, if not today, a year from now, probably cancel

out a lot of that stuff. You know, we were talking about Suno before. You could probably make a game soundtrack in Suno. So, I mean, it kind of just like, as an industry, as a community of people like, it's nice if we get to stay here. It's cool if we all have jobs and get to do stuff still. And then I guess there's also the, I think the asset side of games because there just seems to be a different sense where code is not as expressive maybe or it's kind of more like, it feels like mathematics where it's like, you know, you discover maths, you don't like own maths or create maths. So in the same sort of sense, you kind of like a solution for how to sort

a list is not something anyone feels any ownership of, but, you know, a character, a face that somebody drew, that's like their drawing. They feel like they own it. And so, yeah, like all AI that generates assets has to have been taken from like a thing that a person drew. So there's something there that just feels a bit icky here as well. well. I definitely feel that where I feel pretty okay using whatever agentic coding tools, but feel much less comfortable with kind of the broader whatever generating asset stuff. I do think there's also a thing, like Prime, you had a good post recently, right, where you said, like, I'm sick of getting everything I ask for and nothing that I want, right? That was the quote.

Yeah. Which I think a lot of people, a lot of people liked, resonated with a lot of people. And I've thought about that a lot when it comes to kind of game stuff where, I think like sometimes, you know, in whatever, the broader software world, you're just kind of making a tool and it needs to do a thing and like the details here don't necessarily matter that much. But if I'm like making a game, I want to make a lot of the decisions myself. And it's really easy if a tool makes something for you for it to make decisions without you realizing that it made a decision at all. Right. Like you're just kind of like, oh, that's obviously what it looks like because the tool made it. Whereas if you had done it yourself, you might have whatever considered different different approaches. And I think the more you're trying to be. And I think the more you're trying to be. to make something that's like fun, compelling, artistic, interesting, the more being aware of those decisions matters. Yeah, process is the whole thing for a lot of it. And I'm sure all of your experiments, you know, there are things that you learned or things

that you did because of constraints that came up in the process of you making it. And if you, yeah, like you said, if you just asked the AI to do something and then it did it, and that was your blog post, it wouldn't be very interesting. Well, I tried to make it fun. so it's kind of different, you know. Like that's what's unique about my games. So I try to make it fun. You guys just don't know to prompt.

You have prompt skill issues, honestly. And speed runnable. Yeah, yeah, and speed runable. Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, maybe what we should do, though, is it would be fun to have maybe even both of you back on. We could talk about this for a little bit longer. I didn't know you were going to have so many opinions about it. That's, I think we should have a longer discussion about it.

Yeah, I'd actually like to know more about the game, just the game side, because I do find it. I made this post somewhere. and it actually was one of my few, like, I'd call more viral kind of like shorts. And it's just like, I don't really understand it. Because as a programmer, I guess I've grown up around this notion that you go on GitHub, you go grab some code, you bring it in your project, almost everything's MIT license. You don't really think a lot about attribution.

Every now and then your lawyers go over and say, hey, you can't use these libraries. And you go, okay, I would never use these libraries anyways. Bada bing, bada, boob. Of course. I spend my big corporate kind of, I even remember specifically out my previous job, we actually had a big discussion about can we leave? legally use React because at first there was like this kind of weird legal language saying that React, if you use React, they actually own your software.

This was before a big license change over at the React thing. And so there's a lot of discussion of can we even build with React. This is very dangerous. And so I just have always just had this mentality like, oh, yeah, you just take it. And so when Gen AI came out, I just never even once thought about this process of like, oh, yeah, that wouldn't be good. Like that never really crossed my head during the first initial part because I didn't, you know, all shallows are clear. I did not think about it very deeply. I just was like, oh, yeah.

Of course, I go on GitHub all the time and take code. This is no problem. I just go to Stack Overflow, blah, bang. Now I'm just like, here's new Stack Overflow. And then as you start thinking about, you go, oh, this is a little bit different. And then designers just feel so much different. And this is like that meme that exists where it's just like, hey, I took your code. Cool.

I took it from somebody else. Hey, I took your design. I hate you and I'm going to kill you. It's like vastly different experiences. Yes. And so I'm just so curious about that whole side because I just have no. Like, I have no experience on that side. Casey is effectively my version of trying to learn about it.

Yeah. Well, okay, so then people in the comments, leave a comment if we should do that, because I think it would be fun. I have to leave right now. I'm already late for dinner with my grandparents. I'm going to be in big trouble otherwise. So, okay, I have to leave this very moment. Okay, bye everyone.

The name is TJ, Nolan, Adam. If you want more, please let us know in the comment. Thank you very much for joining us. For the stand-up. All right. Ending.