The Standup with ThePrimeagen - The Codeberg Situation

Episode Date: July 31, 2026

We dive deep into the controversy surrounding Codeberg's decision to ban generative AI projects. They analyze the platform's reasoning, from hardware strain and infrastructure costs to the potential breakdown of community trust and the "slop" of low-effort pull requests. The discussion expands into the philosophy of coding, the "Amish chair" analogy for handmade software, and whether platforms like Codeberg are protecting the future of human craftsmanship or being "left behind" by the AI revolution. Along the way, they touch on everything from Boston accents and steak-cooking debates to the hidden patterns in LLM-generated humor and the "Interstellar" corn crisis. [Sponsor] Sentry: Catch, trace, and fix bugs across your entire stack. Use code: prime for $100 in free sentry credits → https://trm.sh/sentry

No, Prime said he could walk back on at Netflix, and I said that that is not, that's not a good situation, right? Like, just because I could walk on to my local, like, high school varsity team doesn't mean that they were going to win state champs, okay? Okay, we're not going for state championships here. We're just going on state. We're going for steady paycheck. We're going for steady paycheck.

The bars are low. Steady paycheck. That's a respectable goal, trash. That's a respectable goal. Anyway, sorry. I like how TJ's just hate on my very reasonable and respectable goals. What do you mean you want steady income, idiot? He's stupid idiot.

Then why do you start streaming? Well, technically, if you leave prime, then everything just falls apart. There's a lot of downstream implications there. That's true. I have no effect here. All right. Well, I have been kind of brutal on X lately, too. I was thinking about putting in blockers for my own tweets for us to read.

but I didn't know if that was allowed. What was that? Like, get yourself a ring first kid? Yeah, I know. Oh, my gosh. Okay, Casey here. Brian, can you show it to chat, please? Oh, I saw it.

I already saw this. Oh, okay. I saw it. I forgot. What was their original post? We're going to bring it up either way. Oh, don't worry. We'll get the original.

We'll get the original. Also, for added context for this, which is unaware for everybody who saw this tweet, but good lore, because when I told Kaleen about this tweet, she was like, oh, is that the guy that we were making fun of for not having a girlfriend a while ago?

Was it, though? Yeah, it was. Yes. We, he was like, I went to a party and a girl said my arms were too big. And I said generational fumble, basically. And we were giving him a hard time. And then this came up. So, Prime, go ahead.

Why don't you take it away? All right. So, Creeteen. as his name. Literally his name is creatine cycles. You can imagine. Dudes will be skinny and be concerned with open source versus closed source models. Bro, you're worried about the wrong weights. By the way, bang or tweet?

That's a good tweet. I love this tweet. I love this tweet. It's fantastic. Great tweet. No complaints. I don't know why you're picking on this guy, Teet. That's a great tweet. Because I love him.

The DJ comes in with a guy has a girlfriend for three hours that starts posting like this, wintering before you talk kids. brutal bogging I don't know what the I don't know what the meme is called but it's that one guy that's just like brutal

savage wrecked like that is an old Dota 2 meme Wow what do you say after that one Brutal savage ranked Absolutely taken down

That's an old Dota 2 meme That meme That's what just happened right there Absolutely destroyed Poor creatine He was he was at the In San Francisco right Yep

We just did a podcast with him. And Prime, I'm not going to do any spoilers, but Prime just showed up a lot of different people. Oh, nice. We're doing meme review. Yes. Yeah, we're doing another meme review. TJ's been on a heater lately when it comes to puns. Why is... Yeah, go ahead. I think on the last one, though, I did want to say one thing. Here we see the elusive programmer, a simple creature that spends most of its time working alone, often in darkness. But what's this? Someone being wrong in the internet. Our coder springs into action, reaching top speeds of 120 words per minute before flash!

A light mode website, the natural enemy of these code lovers, stuns our friend. The chase is called off. We'll have to get them next time. When not on their computers, they can spend hours drawing crude symbols than something they call whiteboards. Researchers have discovered thousands of dialects, often with more than a dozen used in a single office. However, no linguists has yet deciphered what their purpose is. Vane creatures, their bodies have evolved over a millennia to be able to sit in an unusual. postures while looking at themselves online. This will often last for many hours.

Using the excuse, they're waiting for code review, repressed to why they're so inactive. And finally, after a long day of accomplishing very little, are keyboard warriors ready for bed. Quick read and it's lights out. Good night, little coder. So how do I sleep so well at night? Well, I have century to help me crush those bugs.

And I'm not talking about Little Teen Tiny South Dakota bugs that die in the winter. I'm talking about big, mean jungle bugs. And I'm not scared of any of them, by the way. But I can squash those bugs with sear by century. So the only thing I probably will have to add to this entire discussion is not very good. I wanted to find out who the guy was that you were that you were mugging there, T.J. And so Jaden? I clicked on it.

And the only thing I saw was like him with some other dudes making a stake. And it was not how you make a stake. how you make a steak. I was like, okay, you guys need to, like, go to cooking school or something. Because, like, finish in the oven, my man. Like, do not, like, this is going to be, like, this is going to be... Finish in the oven. Wait a minute. Yeah, yeah. You finish in the oven, for sure, man. Like, I cook a lot of steak. Well, Casey, right, it depends on the thickness of the cut and all that. You don't have to finish in

the oven if you have, say, you're doing a rib eye, but it's only, like, a... an inch thick. I mean, three minutes each side on a good cast iron pan heated to 500 degrees. Like, you shouldn't... Dude, what are you talking about, Casey? You're going to have a nice, perfect pink throughout the whole thing with a good three minutes sit with tinfoil on it. Don't listen to Prime.

Prime posted a steak one day, and it was like a gray steak. It was like, what is that? That was my first steak ever cooked. Now my steaks are awesome. I am a big fan of extremely controlled cooking. So, like, I never, pretty much never cook a steak without an in-stake thermometer. Because otherwise, you do not nail it.

You do not nail it because there's differences. Unless you have exactly the same steak as last time, you will get a slightly wrong, you know, slightly wrong cook if you're not paying close attention. So that's all we're saying. I think you're wrong. I think the variation gives spice of life. Okay.

Well, obviously the solution to this is when we do an in-precha. person one. Steak cook-off? We'll also record each of you guys making a steak. And then me and Trash will blind taste test. Which one is better? By the way, we're going to, are we doing this in September?

September. That's like next month. I thought we said October, Halloween was the last time I heard anything. Well, we're definitely doing a Halloween one. We need to figure that out. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, that's a good point. Trash wanted to go to a haunted house, right?

I can drive this. I can drive this. go to a haunted house. Okay. Okay, we'll figure this out. But doing a steak cook-off and me and trash will judge. I love this idea. We can do it in a hunted house.

You know? Two-thirds-what-thouse. Maybe the stakes are haunted. Two-thirds-what-stove. All right. Well, this was absolutely illuminating. Let's get back to the stanza. Great blockers, DJ.

You didn't do my second one. You didn't do my second joke. Oh, true, true, true. We just brought it up, but then didn't go all the way there. All right, so for those that don't know, Nate McGrady used to be an engineer at X and now currently is an engineer over at Vurcell. And he says, why is soldering so hard? And T.J. responds with God gives the hardest battles to his toughest soders. Yep, yep.

It's pretty good. That's pretty good. That is really good. Completely underrated tweet, by the way. This should have a thousand, minimum. Well, yours has two and a half thousand. Yes, it's true. It's crazy that I should not have ratioed you on this.

Like, right, I should not have been allowed to ratio. I just wanted the joke to get out to more dads everywhere. I don't need the likes at the end of the day. It's just making sure that dad jokes are still represented out on the timeline. Which will directly increase the ratio of like LLMs learning dad jokes. Like, we want LLMs to make a lot of dad jokes in the future. And if we don't get these dad jokes into the timeline prevalently, the LLMs will not understand that they're very important and should be made frequent.

I'm not sure if they can't honestly I'm not sure if they can we've been doing some experiments and like the word wacky 100% of the time LLMs will go oh you want something wacky a librarian lighthouse milking the sky it's the same time it's like almost the same thing every single time it says that specific combination of things it's always milking something it involves a cartographer or a librarian or a lighthouse and something is flooded prove it you found like a a collapse in the Leighton space. Do you really, do you really want me to prove it? Prove it. I got that Jeopardy on right now. What's the prompt?

Guys, guys, guys, here we go. We're doing it right now. We're doing it right now. Fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. Here we go, I'm going to give you guys. It takes a moment. It takes a moment. It takes a village.

It takes a village to create an idiot. It takes a lighthouse librarian. All right, here we go. So I'm launching Steam for just a quick second. Don't worry. A chat already knows about what's going to be going down on Friday. So here's a quick Bellotro. Oh, this is why you've been seeing this.

Okay. Okay, so one of the things we've made in Bellotro is called charades. And the charades is like, pick some wacky, you know, cartoon, whatever. It uses the term wacky. And by using the term wacky, it is the same charade almost universally. So here we go. Here comes the charade. And the charade, of course, it's a lighthouse.

My guess is it's milking the sky. Watch this. Watch this. Lighthouse milking the sky. Nobody knows what's happening right now, by the way. It's not even clear that ChatGPT is involved in this situation, okay?

That's fine. That's fine. We're not even going to tell it. I'm just proving to you guys. Antique Lighthouse Keeper milking a cloud to Deering an eclipse. I absolutely called some part of it. I got 11% malt.

So for those that don't know what happened there is I played a quick game of charades with ChatGPT generating a sweet image for me to be able to look at and then guess what it was thinking. and that image, of course, was this right here, which was that, which was the lighthouse. I could tell it was milking because there's this small little arm going up to right here. Now, as far as the eclipse goes, I really don't see the eclipse in this situation, but we'll, you know.

I have a question, sorry, why is it Bellatro skin? Like, why did Bellotro have to come up? I was my saying, Prime. Why couldn't you just type it into a normal prompt? Like, what were, you have your chat, Gets through Belatro, like, skinned, like, press presentation or something? What's going on? I'm so confused. So I already have the I have the prompt all built into Bellatro and then it gives you a picture, which I think makes it more fun to see. Built into actual Belatro.

Yeah, we're in Belatro right now. And that was a screen game. I didn't want to give, I'm not giving any details about this out, okay? Okay, all right. I just simply said, you'll get it. He's trying to become the Primogen. Legendary game mod developer. You may have heard of my game modding. Anyways, on Friday, we'll be doing a very severe modding session. Belacho.

Very severe. I like it. Yes. So I'm very excited about him. Movie trivia turns out to be very hard, too. If you ask chat GPT, here, in fact, let me just see if we can do it. I love, someone was like Belatro is a based LLM harness.

I love the concept of people like, oh, what are you programming in? Oh, I run all my a lot of my ayes through Belatro. When the hand's really good, they're crushing it. I do love that. But when you ask ChachyPT for a fun movie trivia for a movie made between 1990 to like up to like 2010, it needs to be a popular movie and you need to give a trivia. Almost it, I forgot I had it down. It was like I did it like 50 times.

And 49 of the 50 times it was who directed the Matrix every single time. It loves the Matrix. Just who directed? That was the only question. not other questions about The Matrix. The only other question that I ended up getting once, which was who played Neo in the famous movie, The Matrix. So it only asked the Matrix at all. Like there were no non-Matrix questions.

I'll just fact-check this. Between 1990s to the double zeros. It didn't have. Has anyone ever heard of Home Alone, for example? Like what? How's the Matrix the only famous movie in the 1990s? Pulp fiction to anyone like what the hell? Prime has a chat GPT memory that says

The Matrix is the best movie of all time. I'm so based. I call me Neo. Yeah. Oh, Titanic. I totally forgot about Titanic. There's so many famous movies that are like in the 90s. That's why we'll go to cruise because that movie.

PTS. Really? It wasn't the cruise that got you. I got PTSD for watching Titanic. There's like a scene where the guy falls off and hits the propeller and spins like 30 times. I was like, that's not happening to me. Trash, they now carry enough lifeboats.

That's like the whole thing. They fix it after first. They say they do, Teage. They say, but do we really know? I counted. All right. We were on a cruise. Kaelian and I were walking around.

We counted how many there were. Didn't seem like enough. But I trust that there were ones that I missed. Yeah, you're like, shouldn't the lifeboats have to be sort of similarly sized to the boat? I mean, really? They should just have two crucients to the same side next to each other

A backup cruise ship is right back up That's right in a second We start going to the other That's exactly what they should do Is the only way I'm going to be two titanics Yeah right next to each other Yes that's what I'm saying

Wait wait wait What if they had You could ride on any number in the train And each one was like slightly smaller But you could kind of pick and you're like I'm going to be on the first style Right So then you had to kind of like

multiple backups, because what happens if the second one fails, trash? I don't know. Keep going. You got to keep going. I feel like there's an entire suite of cruise, like, architectures, if you will, based on computer programming. So you just did, like, the big iron fault tolerant one where it's like, we just have, like, three Titanics and they just sail next to each other, and it's fine. And then, like, there's, like, the microservices one where there's just like a crap ton of tiny ass butts that everyone's on. And you constantly have to, like, dingy, but

them to get shit because like it's all I like the idea of having like a raid version which is that you have the same you have the same attraction multiple times on different ships so in case one goes down you can still visit all the different attractions except it's like it's like raid five or like something it's like

it's raid where they like the band that's playing there's like three of the instruments on each boat so if any one boat goes down you still have all the instruments but if like two boats go down you're missing like the drums at that point

or something. I was just thinking there has to be some joke in there about like all the microservices being deployed but they're all fighting over which port they get to run in.

Yeah, well that's what happens when they come to dock, right? Like all these boats are like trying to get the door in the can. That's why it's called Docker. Yes.

Finally. There will be some attraction that they're like, man, this one's a really chatty service. It just won't shut because the dinghies are constantly going to the one.

We really screwed up on this one. All right. Ladies and gentlemen. Ladies and... Hey, speaking of Codebergs, huh? Oh, today. Holy transition, bro. Dang.

That is more segue than the little scooters that people ride around. This is true. Speaking of Codebergs, today we have an excellent episode for those that are not in the know. We have with us, as always, Teage-DV, famous pun-makers. trash dev, famous snack eater, and Casey Muratory, legendary game developer, and in fact, even more famous snack influencer than trash, leading to sales and thank you.

That hurts. That does hurt. I know. A man trains his whole life just to be beaten by a rookie. It sucks. I know. I was pulling some amateur stuff, and it just, you know, it hit. I'm sorry, Trash. I apologize. Trash after that episode goes,

I fear not the man who has eaten 10,000 snacks. But one man who was Ian onceacked a thousand times. You're getting, you are now becoming like a weird, like, confucius or like, like you've got, it's like the Teage is the Oracle. Like I'm expecting you on the, on the show to never say anything except for just like come in with this like well crafted one line of wisdom and then come back out again. Do you not know the Bruce Lee quote? Mm-mm. Wait, that's a Bruce. I don't fear a man that knows a thousand.

kicks, I fear the man who knows one, like, who's practiced one kick a thousand times. There's no way that's a Bruce Lee quote. Are you an idiot? He's very tiny. I'm about Bruce Lee. I can't believe if I don't know this. Hold on time. I got to look this up. I don't know anything about Bruce Lee.

There we go. Let's all, dang it. Quote here. There we go. Bruce Lee's famous kick quote is, I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick, 10,000. times.

Okay. There you go. All I do is Bruce Lee jokes, you know? Like, what's, what's favorite, what's Bruce Lee's favorite drink? What? What? What? Oh my gosh.

You know. Is that supposed to be my tie, but with what tie? Dude, I was staring at. I was staring at Tisha's tile the whole time as I said it. Just wait to see what he would do. Trust. You never did that? I did that like my whole childhood.

That was like the joke. Oh my God. Wow. Wow. Do you think there's any chance at all that Prime could do an intro for the show today? What are we given that for odds for over unders? I just bought a very expensive ping pong paddle. Okay, so no.

The answer is we're already known. Did you get a nice guy? Do you reveal what you're about to do, though? I mean, I think everyone who you're about to do the reveal to isn't a listener of the pot, so I think it's fine. Oh, yes. Okay, okay. Okay. So for those that don't know, I have a friend.

His name is Doug Doug. And we've been playing pickleball, and he keeps beating me at pickleball. And I told him that I used to play ping pong at a pretty serious level. And so, but I said I quit because I broke my paddle about 12 years ago. Because I was ping ponging so hard, Doug Doug. that I broke the paddle. Yeah, I was too broke to afford a new one. People heard.

He's a different man with the paddle, okay? Yeah. And so I quit playing after that after like losing my paddle. And I played in college every single, you know, I played four hours a day for years. I was really into ping pong. Famous stories, I went to China. What? I had a line of Chinese students out the door and I'd beat them one at a time and no one could believe I could play ping pong that well.

What? What are you talking about? That's a real story. That's a real story. I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. I play it all day, like 10 hour straight. Yep.

What am I learning right? What is happening right now? Is this like a Forrest Gump kind of like trick your plan? I was seriously into ping pong. Okay, I was seriously into ping pong for a while. The person I used to play against would help train and practice the people that would go and attempt to qualify and qualified for the Olympics and I'd play him. I scored like three points on him once.

I was so stoked. I need footage. So never play prime at ping pong is what we've learned. The thing is I literally have not swung a paddle in 12 years. I think you're probably still going to be pretty good, is my guess. I am terrible now. I'm terrible now. Anyway, so I got a new paddle.

I'm really ready to go play. And so I'm friends with the man named Doug Doug. And he's been beating me at pickleball, which is like big ping pong. But it's not quite the same. There's no, you can't get good spin. And so I said, okay, let's play some ping pong. And he's super stoked about it. But I did warn him like, I used to be good.

but I haven't played in a long time, which means I'll probably just overshoot the table over and over again because, you know, old muscle memory, but with no talent turns into just disaster, right? Right. So the goal is, is that when we start warming up, I'll just play a quick one with him. I'm going to play left-handed.

Okay? And then after, like, we kind of play, hit it back and forth a little bit of time. I'm going to go like this. Doug, I hate to tell you this, but I'm not left-handed. And then we're going to go in, and then we're going to get serious.

But did the exact quote? now he just knows that that's going to happen. Like, you literally just told it to everyone in the world. No, no, no, no, it's okay. Nobody tell him. No one's going to tell him. Don't tell Doug. What if he's watching?

Don't publish his podcast. Turn off the screen. He's not watching. He's not watching. Okay. Does he live near you? How do you guys play ping pong together? I'm going to go to L.A. here shortly with the family because we have a, like, a friend of my father-in-law.

Oh. Has a beachfront property. And he let us borrow it for 10 days or eight days. or eight days or something like that. So we're going to go as a family and go stay down there. And that is 20 minutes away from where he is at or 30 minutes or 40 minutes. Or some amount of time. I don't know how LA works.

The main point was just the princess. We're about to Princess Bride him, dude. I can tell you how L.A. works. The way L.A. works is if it's 40 minutes away, that probably means it's like just down the street a little bit. Yes. That's why I'm like, it's only three miles dog. And he's just like, you pour, poor. Yeah, it's like, wait until you see what you're going to be sitting in for traffic. Okay, so anyways, so welcome to the stand-up.

Today I have with me, TadTV, trash dev and Casey Muratory, legendary game dev and snack influencer. And we are going to be talking about Codeberg today. For those that are not familiar, Codeberg is an online code hosting platform with a focus on free and open source software. It is part of their mission. A big part of their stuff is that people who open source their code should have a extremely permissive license for everybody to be able to enjoy. and bask in the glories of open source software. With that said, there's been a recent proliferation of LLM-generated code in which is putting strain on anyone that hosts code, i.e. GitHub. GitHub has had a lot of issues,

and I think we're all familiar with GitHub's issues. Well, recently, Codeberg came out and said they will no longer allow mostly five-coded projects to be a part of Codebergonline.net, right? So you can no longer host your vibe coded stuff on Codebird. They gave a whole series of reasons as to why. And that is what we're going to discuss today. Is this a good move by Codeberg? Are we happy with it?

Will this work out for them? Or is this terrible? All right. So there we go. So this is the addendum that they made. You must not share projects that mostly consist of code written by generative AI tools, including services such as Clod, Open AI Codex. Such projects have unclear copyright status.

See the requirements in Section 211, Section 213, and furthermore have little safeguards to ensure that they do not include harmful code. Those other sections just, they're just directly above saying like, hey, we have certain standards. We want certain things to be, like if you are posting a project, we want it to be this type of permissive license. You cannot guarantee that by having an LLM is what they're effectively attempting to say. So this is the line that caused the controversy that everybody is freaking out about.

Okay, we're getting a 504. So they might actually, like, they might be getting hammered right now. Oh, yes, yes, we got it. And so they also posted a blog post, and they had a nice little image right here, which it looks like they've also just recently deleted, which is super unfortunate because it was right here within the first couple. But it showed the actual voting. It showed the actual voting.

So that has been somehow removed or changed. But the voting goes that two-thirds of all Kodberg people supported the no-LLLLM policy. where it's about one third said, hey, we don't support the LLM stuff. You should be able to have LLM projects. I could be misremembering, but I'd add one caveat to that, which is it wasn't two-thirds of Kodberg people. It was two-thirds of people who voted, which is 50% of Kodberg people. So it's kind of two-thirds of 50%, if you were.

Yes, yes, sorry. It was of the voting class of Kodberg, because there is two different classes of Kodberg. There's the people that can just host a small project. and of course the people that are members that are involved that have voting rights and all that. So that side of things. Well, I mean, I think it's 50% of the, like it's, they were talking about how many people participated, which may just be people didn't vote. Like, you know, you had rights to vote but didn't vote.

I don't know. Like, I'm just saying they, they were sort of, it was not clear exactly how many people out of all of the people it was, but just a slight caveat. Their blog post went on and shared several points about what exactly is their reasoning behind. And a few of the big reasons, of course, is that. LLMs put a natural strain on hardware costs, so the replacement of their hardware and then being fully self-hosted is being directly impacted going from 700 non-freedom units euros to 3,500s for a SSD is directly impacting how much hardware they can buy. That's realistic. Second, it impacts

actual infrastructure because there's a higher rate of commits, more code being generated, more of the platform is being used by these, by people who can just generate huge amounts of code, and it's largely untouched. Their big argument was that you have a single piece of code, which is tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of lines long, and it's just one person interacting with it, whereas something like, say, ghosty or some other project that's hosted on Codeburg, they have tons and tons of people interacting with it.

It creates a very healthy community, and so it's like disproportionately costing them more for something that creates no community. And so they're like, we don't really like that. And then thirdly, they said, hey, the copyright status, we don't really know about that. And then fourth, they said, hey, we really don't like single-use software. meaning like you shouldn't generate something for your exact need.

Instead, it should be built upon something that a bunch of people should be able to have benefits. And that's kind of the hosting or style they wish to have on their platform. So I believe I have given the rough outline as to everything. There's also a very lengthy blog statement, which is called Protecting Our Floss Commons from LLMs that was posted. Yes, here we go. And you have the link to that because that's pretty helpful because it kind of goes through. all of the issues that they were concerned about and kind of explained their goals, which is pretty important to understand, like, the motivation of a terms of service change,

obviously. So that was pretty, I found that pretty helpful to just, like, know why they were doing it, right? Yep. I tried to explain most of their reasons. That's where I got a lot of them. I feel like you got most of that in your summer. I missed a few.

I missed a few for sure. But I really, yeah. I missed this part, which I don't think I did very well. Let me say the last part, which was losing trust in each other was another big point, which is when you go to a, as a maintainer, when you open up a project, if you have notifications, and it turns out the person on the other side, often well-meaning, as they say, put in low-effort pull requests. It kind of builds into you a bias, thinking that all poll requests and all new people are just

going to be a bunch of LLM or low-effort people. And it makes you more resistance to new people coming into your community. It makes it harder for people that are active in your community to be able to, like, really reach you and have good discussions because now everything's being passed through this filter of, oh, it's just an LLM being bothersome. And so it kind of tears down communities and create. creates a more toxic place. Whereas if you didn't have that, you'd have good conversation, much more meaningful

conversation. At least that is their intended argument. Good summary, Prime. Now, Prime, you are the one who wanted to talk about this originally. Yes. You were like, I want to talk about this. So maybe you could start by saying, why did you want to talk about it? For me, I will first start off with what I thought was their most interesting point,

which was the last one that they said, which is the tear down of communities. I do think that there's something very interesting to that because I've noticed it a lot even just in my basic communication is that any time I read something that's over three sentences long I am now like more and more going I think this person just generated this response

because it's just like way too it's just like way too superfluous like there's just the language is all wrong and it just like and I realize that it makes me stop really reading a lot of people's responses and it's kind of tearing down the community whether I realize like it wasn't it was a it was my favorite

favorite part of the four-part diagram, which is called an unknown known. I didn't know I knew it, but I just knew it inherently. And I just operate under this bias where I just don't even realize that I'm doing it to myself. Whereas like I start looking at a lot of stuff and going, oh, this is just LLM generated without even giving them a fair shake or really consideration to their argument. And I can see why this is actually tearing down, uh, tearing down communities and Codeberg being a place that's probably much more tight knit than say GitHub. I bet you a lot of the maintainers of projects, no other maintainers of project. is very, very important. And so I'm just curious, like, how is that something that they should be concerned about?

Or is it better just to say, hey, we're growing and adapting to the ever-changing field of software engineering, and we should just move away from this, even though I can see why it's beneficial. I find this part at least very interesting or very unique. Yeah, I mean, I guess one thing I would say is reading through their blog post, I didn't really hit any part where I was like, well, that doesn't make any sense. Like it kind of was just like very reasonable. Now, I don't know for a fact that the reasons that they're giving are the real reasons, like, or whether they just hate LLMs or something and just were going to ban them either way. You know, I don't know whether it was rationalization or whether it was actually like these are the motivating factors. But to me, it doesn't really matter.

It's like the explanations they gave were very sound explanations. I felt like all of them were pretty reasonable about the only thing that I would say as a slight counterfeit. point was I was like, well, you know, could you just turn this into a monetary policy? Could it just be that, well, if you want to do this, like if you want to use LLMs to generate a lot of code, we're going to charge you a lot of money. Like, that's going to cost you. So, like, you can't use this service for free. You're going to have to pay us if you submit LLM generated stuff.

You're already paying for the LLM, so, you know, whatever or something like that. Because at least that way it would be something where. it could be adjusted. But I also understand the perspective of if they just don't want this, like if they're just like, we don't, we don't see this as being something we want to be involved with at all, that I can understand the policy because they're just basically saying, like, look, we don't want this at all. So we don't want to, we don't want to pessimize it.

We don't want to reduce its use. We just want to get rid of it and have those people go somewhere else. Totally fine if that's their decision. I have a quick comment. So I thought, the same thing as Casey said. I thought all, like, this blog post was good. I thought everything was written very well. I agreed with everything.

What I can't get past is like, I don't understand how you can even enforce such a thing that they're saying here. So there's like a lot of like blurry lines where it's like you can't have a project that's mostly created by like an AI L of which that just blurs the lines. Now it's like well, who's deciding what's mostly or who's not? Like it almost feels like you really can't really have a repo on Coburg unless you have like some like past reputation of being like some great open source person. Like someone who's coming in, like it almost shuts off anybody new to like the space.

Because they have no previous like credentials or anything like that. And if you can't prove that they didn't create with the LLM, you're going to almost just assume, just kind of like what you said earlier, you almost just assume everyone's using LLM. Like I've never seen such detailed PR requests or PR descriptions until like this past year. And every time I see like a well thought out PR description, I'm like, I'm not reading it because it's slop. which is funny because when I do it, I don't feel that way. I'm like, yeah, this is well detailed, but when someone does it to me, I get, like, offended. I'm like, wow, you didn't take the time.

It's so funny this morning. I actually got one of my open source projects. I got a pull request, and it was definitely just, like, auto-generated. And I was, like, almost pissed off when I got it. But at the same time, like, this whole past week, I've been using LLMs to just, like, knock out a bunch of, like, tech debt. But for whatever reason, when I saw someone do it to me and it wasn't me doing it, I just got like super bad for some reason. I'm like, I'm going to close it.

But yeah, I don't know. I can't explain the psychology there right now. It's weird. I think that's kind of a thing that is almost to be expected, though, because everyone, this is common for humans, right? Like, it's just a thing that everyone does, which is you believe that you are responsible when you use something. Like, I am a good driver and I drive responsibly, right? But these other people on the road.

That's why I can text and drive, Casey. Yeah. Right? It's like I can look at the map. But if someone else is doing that, they're just irresponsible and they're going to kill somebody and whatever, right? And you can name just about anything, gun ownership, drinking, whatever it is, drugs. It's always like the people who think that they can do it responsibly don't just automatically then think, well, anyone can do it responsibly. They're like, no, everyone else could, right?

LLMs feel a lot like that to me. I feel a lot, I feel sort of ambiently that people generally are like, I think that AI is bad and that it's generating a lot of slop. But of course, I use it and I use it really well. And I make like good stuff with it. It's like, no, you probably make roughly the same stuff as everyone else. And you're just like downgrading what they're making and upgrading what you're making kind of unfairly. Because probably their stuff isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. And your stuff probably isn't as good as you're making it out to be.

it out to be, right? And that's just how it goes, unfortunately. So I think you're touching on something very real. I don't think it's specific to AI, but I do think it probably is happening a lot right now. I think that summarizes my feelings exactly. No, I was going to say the other thing for like, oh, go ahead, trash. No, sorry. No, no, no, no, no. Well, my last comment is after I read this, I almost felt like it was like a Mastodon Blue Sky blog post. And I was just like, wow, this is like very pretentious, like, come on. But then I get it. Like, after reading this blog article, I was like, okay, okay, this all makes sense. Like financially, too, it also makes sense. But I still feel like it's going to shut out a lot of, like, future, like, open source creators that do use LLMs,

but also use them responsibly. But to your point, Casey, it's like, how do we know they're using it responsibly? Because I use it responsibly, you know? So it all just seems very handwavy, not very enforceable, and pretty much, like, you got to know somebody almost kind of thing, which I really like, I don't know. Teage, you were going to say something. Yeah, the thing I was going to say was it's, uh, I think similar to the thing you're saying, Casey, but maybe slightly different too, is like for my code base, I don't care if I fill it up with trash, right? Like if I do something in my house and I scuff up the wall, I'm kind of like, well, that stinks. I wish I didn't scuff up the wall. But like if I was at my friend's house and I scuffed up their wall, I would feel

like really bad because it's like their thing, right? So I do think there's like, a little bit of an asymmetry there where like if I do something to someone else's repo, I do feel like I should do better than I would do on my own repo, right? So I do think like at least for, I feel like a responsibility that like, oh, I'm going into your house. What's your rules? How do you do stuff? I'm going to do it your way.

You leave shoes on. That's disgusting, but I'll do it at your house. My house, you're taking your shoes off. Okay, everybody at the door, okay? Reasonable. Gotcha. Okay, so I wanted to jump back on trash. What were you saying?

What did you just say? What was the... Because I had a great... Oh, yeah. Okay, I got it. Ghostie. How does Ghostie work in this world? For those that don't know,

Ghostie was a terminal, started off being written by Mitchell Hashimoto in his retirement years, and then gained popularity. He's unretired, as of today, by the way. Yeah, he's unretired. He's back in the game. And over the last, like, year and a half,

he's been talking about how he uses AI all the time to generate patches and all that. Like, how do you even enforce the idea of mostly? Like, why would Ghostie deserve a spot on Codeberg? Because we know at least one person committing to Codeberg uses AI regularly. Like, what is the, what is the mark of too much slop? Like, I don't know what that is. I kind of have something tangential to say, I don't think there is a way to know, but I have something sort of, to add to that or to sort of,

it's not really a pile on, but it's like a thing that goes along with it, I think. Which is, I think there's, based on their blog post, they have a lot of goals. Like there were a lot of things outlined there, right? And I think there's a simpler version that has less goals. So if your goal is just that you want the projects to be good

and you want them to work well and you want the system as a whole to work well, then really, I think the only policy you probably need in that scenario is no one should be able to tell this was done by an LLM. That's the goal, right? The goal should be, I get the pull request, and it's been looked over correctly. There's no obvious mistakes. The thing isn't too verbose. Like, somebody prepared it so that it looks like a nice

human-generated pull request, and maybe it was generated largely by the LLM, but a human was there to make sure that you didn't get the slop, right? and so that's the real thing that like a project that just doesn't want to drown in low quality stuff should be concerned with right but then there's a separate thing where they've piled on all these other things which i don't necessarily disagree with so i'm not saying pile on in a bad sense i'm just saying they've added a lot more past that baseline of just don't disrupt the service they're basically saying like they don't really want to invest time in the lLM sort of economy They're saying they want to invest in people, right? I've heard this from multiple places. I believe this was the stated reason why Zieg stopped accepting LLM-generated pull requests as well. They basically said, I think Andrew Kelly literally said in an interview, he said something like, we want to invest in people who we believe will become future contributors to Zieg.

And we want those people to be spending a lot of time in the code. Again, don't know if that's the real reason or not. I can't like intuit or I can't like see into people's souls and know like what they're actually saying. But as a statement, it is very reasonable, right? Yes. If that's your goal is to have, is to cultivate people who are going to contribute, then not wanting them to be using LMs as the way that they learn about the code base could be a very reasonable thing to say. Like, I don't know, right?

I'm not in a position to really judge that. So I do think there's kind of this, there's kind of different stages, right? When you get to a certain point, the goals that you're trying to sort of go for kind of have to be like, yeah, we don't want you use an LLMs much because we think we think there's something to preserve in the human layer and we're going for that. So I guess I guess the follow up question is that this obviously caused a huge amount of kind of stir on the internet. And I like you said, I like their, if you take what they're saying at face value. and you believe they're being like honest in all of their thoughts that it's purely a very practical educational type of pursuit, then you'd say, okay, well, this, I think it's totally fine. Like I think that there's nothing wrong with it. But obviously the internet kind of freaked out. And there was people just saying how they're going to get left behind and all these different kind of things. Is this actually a real concern? Or is this just like a Twitterism that people throw out there that actually has no real impact into the future of Kodberg? Does anyone else want to go first? Because I have something to say about the left behind thing

That's kind of its own direction Oh, with Kirk Cameron, famous movie And book series And book series. What do you mean left behind in what sense? When Jesus comes back, idiot Yeah, yeah And then there's a bunch of people here just stand there in there

Okay, I mean like I'm talking about like Coburs But like I don't understand like why they'd be left behind if they took out LLMs Well, I think the implication is that if everyone's going to be programming with LLMs in the future, because that's the new way that people are starting to... Next week. Well, the people are starting to program now. Like, most people are using these things or at least a significant portion developers are using these things. Then if you ban them, you are effectively not going to have enough people, right, doing work to contribute to Codeberg repositories.

I think, right? I mean, that's just the basic implication is there won't be enough. programmers doing programming without these LLMs to constitute a, you know, a relevant set of projects on Codeberg. Is that, I mean, am I just off-face? They're not banning LLM straight out. They're just banning, like, strictly, like, only LLM stuff, right? So that's what I'm getting. Well, yeah. But I guess that's like, that's where the, gets weird. Yeah, I mean, the, I mean, I don't know. I'm just saying, like, I think that's what they mean by Left Behind. It's just like, because people will be mostly, mostly they will be

generating code with LLMs, and if you're doing that, you know, that's, that's not allowed. So, Casey, you may not know this, but, uh, sorry, T, you can go next. Sorry, I just got to throw this in there. Trash knows is very, very well, which is a very common Silicon Valleyism. So I think this is actually a holdover from just another time, which is that if you were to build a product in 2021 and you didn't use React, you were effectively making it so that no one can work on your project and it's going to be super hard to hire and all these kind of things. Like you saw that kind of phrasing and phraseology constantly.

So I do think that that mentality, whatever it is, yet again, shows up in these type of arguments, which is, well, if you're not doing the current thing, then you're done. You're cooked. You're cooked. You're, you know, whatever the kid. You're chopped. The kids say, I think that's what they say. All right. Sorry, teach. Go.

Yeah, I was going to say, I think there's, like, if you think of Stack Overflow and it, like, used to be a company and basically now it's not is my understanding. right like it used to be popular and now i think they get like sometimes days go by with no questions asked am i crazy is it that small now it is no way no way yeah it's like it's like 10 questions on average a day was the last time i looked and it used to be like over 100 000 or something insane right sometimes it peaked something crazy whatever um so i think like from uh if you're saying like from a business perspective i think like some of what they're you know what people are getting at is like Codberg, you won't be able to like pay people to work on your stuff or like to host it or do all these other things. Because there's literally just not going to be enough people like doing whatever version it is that Codberg says is like acceptable coding policy.

I think it's like the conjecture. The thing that I always feel like is kind of crazy for that where I just, you know, want to take a step back and make sure people are considering. Like a lot, you know, spent a lot of time working on NeoVim, did a lot of fun stuff on my setup, whatever. I had a lot of fun doing that. Some of it was productive. Some of it was just fun. I always said as much. I know that a bunch of people absolutely demolished me using Notepad or Notepad Plus Plus or like Ed still and made a whatever metric you would pick like crushed me in terms of number of users, amount of money, amount of money raised. cultural impact, like, you could pick any vertical and they crushed my entire career, right?

So I always feel like the, like, you'll get left behind because you're not using whatever the current thing is, is like usually very overstated in, just in terms of like, there are people who are just like either much more persistent or much more lucky or work harder or whatever it's going to be. And they like still win and carve out their thing. And unironically, uh, with, and without malice, the successful by their own standards, a phrase that I know Prime is familiar with at least. It's my favorite phrase, by the way. That's a really good thing. It's actually true, though.

If Codeberg doesn't want to be acquired by Microsoft and be the default place where people host code, instead they want to be a place that's like a sustainable business where people can share code with other humans, then they can like still meet that goal without getting every new programmer. So it's like you can't, you might get left behind by the like VC hype cycle thing. Like you'll never get the growth that like your venture capital firm would have wanted you to give. But that doesn't mean that the project is like a failure, which is the thing that I just feel like is so just like everyone's talking way past each other about that online in the conversation. I feel like that's 100% correct. It's like the idea of getting left behind doesn't really make very much sense because it's suggest. that everyone's goal is to be at the forefront of something, right? But that's not, right?

Like, there are, you know, like, you've got people like the Amish who are just like, you know what, I'm just not going to use electricity, right? In 2026. Like, people have to have the freedom to define their own ways of living. And one of the things that I try to tell people, although people rarely seem to want to listen, is that that is a feature, not a bug of humanity. you never really know when humanity in large numbers

is going to go do something fantastically stupid. We have no idea if AI is going to be a huge mistake. It might be for reasons we just can't foresee, right? And so having some percentage of the population who doesn't like it reflexively and chooses to go do something else, that is

not bad. Even if they're wrong, it's good. It's insurance. It's basically like humanity's protection about everyone doing something dumb, right? So you always want a diversity of sort of directions forward where some amount of your populace is not doing the new thing.

Even if the new thing turns out to be correct, it was not a good idea to try to pressure them into not going their own way because having that sort of different set of people doing different things for different reasons is why we survive. And the instant you try to homogenize everyone, everybody and say everyone should do it this one way, you are effectively like eliminating humanity's greatest strength, which is not all doing the same thing all the time. They did, this was the problem in interstellar. They all had the exact same corn. That's why they

had to go inside of a black hole. I mean, I don't know. There's like a bookshelf. There's like a bookshelf. No way. What? Then Michael, Matthew McCona had to go behind a bookshelf and like, punch it to like get some stuff happening. It's, it's hard. to recover from corn. If you all are doing the same corn, it's GGs. Okay, Timothy Shalomey might disappear from your timeline and never get referenced in the last 45 minutes of your movie, okay? You get hit by this huge wave, like the biggest wave you've ever seen, and you have very

little warning, trash. Okay. Very little warning. Noted. Noted on corn. Got it. Yeah. And then Matt Damon lies to you about the planet.

There's a ton of bad stuff that happens in this time. He's a good guy when he's on Earth, but every time he's. see him not on earth, he's a bad guy. That's right. Think about it. That's right. Something I, you know, I feel like people don't talk about as Matthew McConaughey spent like years behind that bookshelf. I mean, it's probably

a pretty cool little space back there. I'm just throwing it out there. It was a long time. He was out there for a long time. He's a patient man. Very patient. Very patient. He got, he doesn't, he doesn't. Dresh, that is what happens, though, by the way. They all have the same corn, and then they gets afflicted by the same

disease and they can't stop it because they ran out of corn. That's what they can't live anymore. I had no idea. You're not paying enough attention, trash. I'm not paying attention. I'm not. But the serious point to echo Casey's point is, if you love AI, you should be thankful that there exists people putting out new, untainted, fresh training and keeping the light

alive of trades that we may forget how to do. We don't actually want to have the meme where it's like, we lost the technology. Whatever the meme is like, my dad showed me this TV and asked how did we put this on the moon? He said, son, we lost the technology. You don't actually want that. So you should be thankful that people exist that are like, I hate AI. I'm going to keep writing code by hand. That's a good.

This is the exact same thing as back in the old days where people were like, why are you working on like game engine stuff? Why don't you just use unity? And the answer is, don't, why would you ever say that to somebody? The people who you're saying that to are the people who built unity. Like, that's why you have a unity is because of these. You should just say, great, have fun with that. I'm going to leave you alone because I want my unity later, right? Like, that's, it's people are arguing against their own self-interest.

Like people who are LLM aficionados are arguing against their own self-interest when they tell other people not to pursue other people. It doesn't make any sense. It's like the Kodberg people's blog makes perfect sense. The people who are saying they shouldn't do this that they're going to be left behind. I don't really take that seriously because that's not what you would say if you actually thought about the system as a whole.

And again, so when you look at those people's motivations, it kind of feels more like they're just self-conscious or something. Like they don't have enough self-esteem to just go, I'm using LLMs and I'm fine with it. And I don't mind if other people aren't in the bandbats. Like somebody else not doing it is like makes them afraid maybe they're, something wrong with them or something. And they have to get everyone involved in this thing.

And everyone has to agree it's great to do this and that there's nothing wrong with using them. It's like, just have some self-confidence. You use LLMs. It's fine. You're fine with it. Go ahead and let the people who don't, don't. It's just, what's the problem, right? I don't understand. Casey, can I reach you a quote from George Hots? Also, I called it in the chat. As soon as Casey said this, I typed in the cat, Geo Hots reference incoming. Prime is so excited. And Teage, I actually had a completely different point, but when I saw that, I was like, oh, that's a good reference. I'm going to use that.

Oh, your face lit up. I was like, he's running. You did a little bit of shaping, a future shaping by accident. What is, what is it? All right, well, let me, let me show you. So this is from his famous blog post called I love LLMs. I hate the, I hate the hype. Okay.

Or he also casually drops that he runs GLM 2 just to set up his Linux machine. You know, whatever. I wrote a multi-million dollar machine just to set up Linux. Uh, a year of the Linux, by the way. So anyways, he said this. What I don't like is two things. One, the constant bullshit about the window closing or perpetual underclass or falling hopelessly behind. This is a negative balance hype.

Not only is it not true, it's mostly designed to make you feel bad about yourself and move to shitty San Francisco where everything really does suck, like how these people claim. Oh, it gets better, Casey. It gets better. Again, just in case anyone's wondering, Hots, open invite whenever you want to be on here. Hots takes. I love these hot sticks. Dude, he's my favorite writer of the modern age. And two, this straw man jump from, oh, hey, it's a fancy.

auto-complete, smart compiler, better search engine, too. It's like going to own the whole light cone, bro. If you aren't in San Francisco and at the right parties, there's going to be a flash of light in the sky one day and you're not even going to know what happened, but everything just changed. I'll bet you everything I have that this doesn't happen. The people perpetuating this are terrible people, but the justice is that this is how they feel inside all the time themselves. I guess, you know, all I'm doing is, is unknowingly parroting geo-hotts here. So, yes, I mean, that's kind of what I was trying to say, but put more eloquently, I suppose. I love that phrase. But, I mean, I do want to throw this out there that there's this,

there's this one big problem when it comes to AI. Well, really, it comes to anyone talking about technology. And I do this myself all the time because NeoVim still the greatest editor if you want to actually be a real programmer. But the thing is, is that when you approach a problem, especially like you'll definitely see this from people recommending LLMs, is that they can identify and say, oh, this is a part that LLMs are not that good at.

But don't worry, it's really great at back ends. Oh, no, don't worry. It's really great at this other thing. And so I hearken it to like something like the gentleman amnesia, which is you open up a magazine, you read the first thing about horses. You say, wow, they're so smart about horses. Look at all these cool facts.

You go to JavaScript and you read it and they're like, oh, they know nothing about JavaScript. They're such idiots. You turn the page and you're like, oh, man, this bee article is so amazing. Look, I know so much about bees now. It's like you completely forgot the fact that when you knew something, then it was not that good. But when you don't know something, it's like the most fantastic thing in the universe. So it has some strong parallels to that.

And I think that people often forget that what they work on and what they're doing may be very good with LLMs. That doesn't mean everybody has a problem that's really aligned with LLMs. Like if I was just building some SaaS tools that is taking stuff from the back end and putting it on the front end. Like you bet your sweet ass I'd be using LLMs like wild. Like I'd be setting up every last thing because it's like this is such a mechanical obvious, you know, put the data in the box bro. Like there's not like a lot you got to do there. And so it's like this is a perfect example of you saying, hey, you could probably get to the point of even automating PR review through a lot of this stuff with barely like any oversight. Whereas like that you can't do that for

everything but people see this one thing and they go, dude, why aren't you automating PR review? It's obvious. You should do it this way. This is the future idiot. But like their circle is so much different than other people's circle, but it's the, you know, I see it. Therefore, everybody has this exact same thing. And also they feel really crappy on the inside based on Geohads. And so that's kind of like how I look at this and why people are angry at Kodberg is because they see their future and what they're doing. And they see Kodberg going against it.

And they cannot imagine a world in which is different than their own world. Well, I would also just point out the difference in goals, at least because from my perspective, I've never really been super concerned. I mean, I guess I am concerned sort of because I have to use software about how good LLMs are compared to human programming, right? I'm slightly concerned because like if they were, if they don't get any better, maybe that's a problem because people are using them. So I, you know, I kind of want them to improve in the sense that if they don't improve,

we're kind of in trouble. But, you know, that sort of, that's a separate thing. So assuming that they get good enough that it's just fine all the time and they can write really good code and we don't really have to worry about it too. much. To me, that's really just not part of the equation, at least for me, because it's like, I like to program. Like, I want to do it, right? And so when I look at things, other things in life, I think Teage used chess as an example before. I find that very compelling. It's like, if I want to play a game of chess, I'm not thinking, well, I'm not going to play that game

of chess because I know that I could get a computer that can play it better than me. I still just want to do it, right? You know? It's good. It's good. Yeah. I like TJ. I actually even prefer, that's one of TJ's really great analogies. A second one of his is the Amish chair one, which you kind of alluded to, which is Amish people still make chairs that I can go by. Yeah, well, and the other thing I was going to say is... Why not just mass produce it from IKEA, idiot?

Just use the mass-produced one, dummy. Drum machines versus live music, right? It's like, we have things that can do stuff on a time. So it's like, I may just want to learn to play the drums because I enjoy playing the drums. It's not that I think I will be more precise than a drum machine or whatever. it's just that I wanted to play the drums, right? And so to me, those things should be acceptable. Like, if you say that, people should not be, like, hounding you for some reason.

It's a perfectly rational thing that exists in all of things. Like, hey, we could probably design a robot that hits a baseball really well. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have people playing baseball as something we watch. Like, it's just, it might just be something we want to do, and that should be fine. And you should not care because if, again, If you're not really self-conscious or something and you actually have some self-confidence, then if you want to go build the future with LLMs, those people are not in your way, right? They're not creating a problem by going and doing something a different way.

So what's the issue? Like, why do you have to convince them not to? I don't see it. We can't agree that it's time to stop playing soccer, though, right, Casey? Well, we never should have started. I agree that if your country doesn't have a better sport to play, like if you only have soccer, then play soccer. But if you can have baseball or something, if you can have like a sport that adults play, you should probably play that. That's my opinion.

I've always personally thought the quality of a country is based proportionally on how expensive their main sport is to play. Yes, exactly. That's how you know. That's the affluence of that country. If all you can afford is like a little ball that you just run around a field with. Eh? Right? Like not really.

Like that's not really first world. That doesn't scream first world to me. That really doesn't. So, I don't know. I mean, make a bit what you will. You know? Love it. Our new sports are collecting Pokemon cards.

It's a very expensive sport. Trash has decided that. You know how many soccer balls? This is worth? This is so many soccer balls behind me. I could find the World Cup. Yeah. I saw somebody saying something like, like the whole point of the stand-up is to watch Trash's room slowly fill up with Pokemon.

And I was like, can I show you guys something? Yes, you can. Yes, of course. This is my binder of bangers. Okay, okay. Ooh, I love it. I pulled this card just randomly. I don't know if you could see it.

What is that? This is a mega dark ride. It's called a special illustration rare, $300 card. Boom. Boom. That was my first one I ever pulled of like this caliber. I showed my son and he was so mad at me. He was like, I want it.

I was like, uh, okay. Just so I understand, trash, just so we're on the same page. That means all of your other cards are worth less than $300. All right? I can afford to go out and buy a $1,000 card, and I refuse. I want to pull it myself, okay? That's actually reasonable. That's actually reasonable.

That's the same thing as AI. Yes, exactly. So it's like there's people that favor input, which is like the Kodberg people. There's people that favor output, which is like the LLM people are just, churn his stuff out, right? I'm an input type guy when it comes to Pokemon, so. Yep. I respect that.

Trash, since you're, since you're kind of the only one who works at a modern web influencing company within this group right now. Can we just say the only one with a real job and cut to the chase? No, because, Casey, you have a very real job. Is it, though? Oh, okay, you're right. Game Engine Design and making games amazing is totally not real. Fake.

He's going to be left behind. He's actually being left behind right now. Casey's being left behind every time we see him. He's even more behind. Every episode, you should scoot back an inch. That's true. Casey, I don't know if you know this, but 2010 Unity came out. So why don't you quit being such an idiot and just use a real agent.

It does sound right. I forgot where I was going with this statement. Trash works at a real job. Oh, trash. You wanted his opinion on something. Yeah, trash. As somebody who works in a real job, in a real job is in a real i said web influencing that's why i actually specifically said that

because casey i just assume is not talking about web standards ever in his life if possible uh with that mind how much of the work nowadays in your sphere is like ai driven completely or it's like the expectation that you have to do that like is it falling behind for somebody in your position not to use ai uh it depends on where you are in the work So I think there's a lot of things within TV that AI really can't help with, because obviously we have a lot of proprietary stuff. That's, like, maybe not documented the best. So that's where, like, the expertise of, like, maybe your previous team or adjacent teams will come in, and AI can't really help. Right.

So when it comes to, like, hardcore performance stuff, you know, you can, we've actually tried to throw, like, a bunch of alums at it. Sometimes it falls short. Sometimes it hallucinates. But then there's, like, the standard stuff, which is, like, product-facing. AI will typically shine through there, I think. But I think this isn't specific to my company, but I think all companies as a whole, everyone's getting pushed to go agentic coding fully

so we can fully realize our output, and then we can then calibrate our personnel at some point, right? And I'm not speaking for my company. I'm just saying that's just like something I've been seeing, but I don't think that's actually turning out the way these companies think it was going to turn out, as in like we're going to shrink our personnel, but still keep the same velocity.

I think they're just keeping the same velocity as they were before, but they're spending way more money. And I think that's like the brutal reality, every single company is seeing now, because engineers aren't like, yeah, I'm 10 times more productive to work for you. Like,

no one's actually wanting to be more productive when they can do less but have the same input they had before. And I think that's like the actual reality, unless they're like founders, of course they're going to pump out stuff, but I think like your standard personnel does not have that mindset. And I'm not saying I have that mindset. I work very hard.

the way. Right. Trash in particular did 10x, his output, but only his. I'm a 10Xer. Only his. Everyone else to go back to the original point we made about about LLM usage. He was 10X, everyone else, same output.

There is like some one thing that kind of bothers me, and it's not within my company, but just in general is, and it's something we tapped on earlier is like when you do see those PRs that are clearly generated, like, why should I look at this? You know what I mean? it's like I'll have just use a use another agent to look at your agent's work like that that

that part is still like something that really frustrates me within our industry now it's we're outputting all this stuff but then there's like an expectation of a human to read it because we don't fully trust agents but there's just so much coming through no one even has time to do it so I don't know I'm kind of torn there anyways I did see as someone wrote it kind of like an excellent I forget who said this or where I saw but which was this idea that by you using an LLM to kind of generate your thoughts, you're really putting the onus of correctness on somebody else. Like you're not even validating it yourself first and then passing it on.

And so it's actually, in some sense, you could consider it like a pretty rude action. Like something you would never do just like two years ago is now something that people just do all the time. Like I didn't even prove reading. Like it's the LM said it was correct. And it's just like that dude, that's crazy. Like what are you doing? Why are you doing that to other people?

You're making four other people do the work that you could have done first. I would never do anything like that. Like I always come up with all my original thoughts myself. Like the other day I was thinking about like this lighthouse that was like milking a photographer like really hard. And I was just like that. This is like really smart what I thought of. And so I wrote that down. Okay.

That's very impressive, Casey. I'm extremely impressed at you. It's one thing that my mindset's different on AI usage like with it for work and outside of work is if I'm going to make a PR, that's like generated through an LLM, I need to make damn sure I can like know exactly what it's doing. Because if someone asks me, what does it do like in a meeting? And I can't answer that. That's like my ass is on the line. So that's like my, that's like the situation I fear the most where it's like, yeah, can you explain it to me? And if I can't do that, just fire me, dude. So that's kind of like how I handle that kind of stuff like within like actual professional

environments. Can you ask the LLM? Can you explain? Please also write up what I'm supposed to say in a meeting if someone asked me what this PR does return and then just remember that statement it's true it's true i actually have my own agent at work now and up this whole work yeah you're welcome trash i've solved i have my own agent at work and like if someone asked me a question i like tag my agent and i'm like can you go figure this out and they're just like watching it all real time i'm like there you got it buddy thumbs up it's nice it's nice all right All right, does anybody here have an opposing opinion? Does anyone here think that what Codeberg did was net negative?

Oh, net negative. Or at least negative to some degree. Because obviously people's on the internet, there's a lot of people that were just like, you know, losing it. I saw people being like, I'm not even going to donate anymore, right? I linked it in one of the videos, some random guy. I could find the exact proctweet. The biggest complaint I have with it is the concept around it being mostly AI generated. I think of a project that, like I use quite a bit that's called alchemy. That's how we deploy

a bunch of stuff, like for that we've been testing out for different projects. And it basically like helps you make sure your infrastructure actually like type checks more or less is like the very short answer of it. So that like if I say that this thing needs a database, we actually like have a Postgres database accessible to this service. Right. like that kind of thing. And one of the cool things they do is they have like a, I don't even know how many, an insane amount of agents like spinning up and like going and hitting AWS or like Cloudflare or like all these different people in like a bunch of insane ways.

And then just like recording all of the possible error codes that they get back, which believe it or not are not the same error codes that are in the specs for these systems. Shocking. Shockingly. Shocking. The thing that they say. might happen under certain circumstances doesn't actually happen and the only way that they're finding the list of all the ways those things might fail or the time that it might take between when

it says it's going to deploy and not and all these other things right um is like actually just run it and see and then like keep running them again later and make sure that it's still the same because they are constantly shipping updates right but like a a crazy amount of that is like all well you could say like it's all AI, right? Like, depending on what your definition of it is. But I'm like, well, that seems like a pretty good use case of like, we're going to go make the computer hit the other computer in a bunch of different ways until we find out all the ways that it can fail, or at least many more than what's in the spec. Would that not be allowed on Codeberg? You know what I'm saying? Like that part, I don't, that's the part where I just don't like the mostly, because I think some

projects are like very intentional about the way that they're doing AI. And I like Casey's sort of more like, is it a waste of someone else's time? Like, that's what I don't like. Or is it a waste of like Codberg's resources in the sense of like, are you pushing a thousand times a second to our thing and uploading like just insane diffs and committing binaries and like destroying it? Some of those though, I don't think you can solve with like a, I don't know, like a policy at like a words policy. It just has to be a money policy. Like, cool, you get this many commits per day for free, and then after this, you just have to pay. Like, stop doing this.

You're abusing the system. Even, like, if you're not doing it an AI, like, if I just did a script that incremented a number and then committed and pushed it to Codeburg, I should also get banned. There's no AI involved. You know, I'm just literally wasting their resources. So, like, that's the part where I don't really like. And I think Prime, you talked about it in your video, but not today. the other thing is like this sort of single use or like single person software. I love single person software.

I think the demand for software is unlimited. Like the more personalized and better software could be, the more people will want it to do more things for them. Unfortunately, we're currently just at like we're getting more software, but maybe less quality stage. But like maybe someday hypothetically, you could have it be personalized for you and really good.

So that's the other part that I wasn't a huge fan of. in their sort of list of reasons. Yeah, I'll echo that one. I said it in the video. I released a video, by the way, today on the code work thing, just my thoughts, which is one of them is on this idea that, like, single use or personal use software is a net negative, and you should always have software that's, like,

attempting to create a community or bring people around or is maintained long term. And it's just like, well, 90% of my ideas are trash anyways. I just need to actually, like, go and discover them and use them. for three months ago, oh, actually, no, this was really actually a bad idea. And so making that thing, you know, making that discovery process smaller is really good. And I can rewrite it and make it into something amazing. But the discovery process is actually really hard. And all, like, big projects start off as personal use.

You know, even Linux was just, was Linus being like, do, check out my toy operating system I made as a research project. It was just like, well, okay, yeah, he was just checking things out. It wasn't like, I'm going to make the greatest operating system of all time that everybody will eventually say is the year of my operating system. Every year for 15 years. It could be that what Codeberg is basically saying, though, and again, I don't know. Maybe what they're saying is like, look, that's just not what we do here. Right. You know, like they might not be saying don't do that.

They might just be saying, Codeberg is for when you want a community around your project. If that's what you're doing, you come here. If you'd want to do something else, go to GitHub, go to whatever you want. wherever you want, we don't care. There's plenty other places that can host your source code. If you want to do a community-centered project, that's what we do. We're about humans. We're about people coming together and working on projects.

And again, I don't know if that's what they're saying, but if that's their thing, then that's their thing, right? They're the ones doing this. We don't have the right to go tell them how to run their source code control. So at some level, it's like maybe that's what they want, right? Oh, I have to interrupt you. Can you say, if that's their thing, can you re-say that? Can you resay that but with the Boston accent? Can you just make that last quick point with the Boston accent?

It was so good. It's going to become du rigour if I do it every episode. They're probably, you really want that? I just one more time. Just one more time for the boys. All right. Okay. Listen, I don't know what Coburg's thing is, right?

You know, I mean, they got to do what they're going to do, because they've got so many things that they're thinking about. They got LLMs over here. They're sending all these, you know, commitments and things. It doesn't make any sense. So they got to limit the people who use codebird to the, you know, they got to limit it to the kind of people that are like them, you know,

that have the same kind of opinions, the same kind of needs. They don't want AIs in there doing whatever they're going to do. Is that what we're talking about? I don't know. It's just when you said, if that's the thing, that's the thing they're going to do. Like when you said it, you actually like kind of tripped yourself up into like a minor shadow of an accent. you could actually kind of hear it and so then I was just like I just need to hear the thing sorry but is it is it easy for you to do it is it pretty no in fact that one wasn't that good like

so there's this problem that happens uh with accents it's hard to do specifically so massachusetts there's Massachusetts and there's like providence and so providence is more Italian American accent and Massachusetts is a little bit more and so that one was more Providence what I just did. It's really hard for me to, without thinking about it too much and without the right words, it's hard for me to pick one. So like, I'm trying to think, and I'm not really a master at this. There's, you know, there's people who are really good impressionists and they know exactly

how to do it. I thought you're going to say people who really live in Boston. That would make sense. They're experts at this. Impressionists, though. It's like, Codeberg. You're Codeberg. It's like, I don't even know if I can know what they would say for Codeberg.

Oh, you mean, Codeberg? Codeberg? Yeah, I've been to Codeberg. Codeberg. I don't even know how they would say Codeberg. I actually kind of want to go ask a person with a real Massachusetts accent. How would you say the word Codeberg? Because I don't have a good, like, reference.

Can you say Codeberg's retarded? Yeah, Codebag. Code bag. It's kind of retarded. Codeberg. Code bag. I think it'd be kind of, it's almost like it's like code bug. It's like saying codebuck.

Yes. Codebag. Codebag. You know, codebag. You haven't been to codebook. You're checking source code to code, code. Like that, right? And I feel like it's really hard to get that because there's the Providence accent's more, it's different, right?

It's more like, you know, Codeberg. You know, code. You're checking the sauce code to codeberg. It's like a little bit different. It's very close, but a little bit different. And so it's hard for me to do the mind. And he told me this phrase, and I've been wanting to remember the phrase for so long, but it goes something like, we dropped our R's here because we pick them up over there.

And it's like this thing where it's like, you say WADA, right? You don't say water, right? And so they have this like whole, he like listed it out for me in this like really logical way. And it's like, you know, Warsh is like, you know, or whatever it was. And then you're just like, oh, okay, so you drop the R's here to pick them up over there. There's also like New England and the surrounding areas are just like an accent festival, right? Because there's like, yeah, there's like water. There's like, there's also water, which is like, which is like,

like a Pennsylvania. Like, like, there's, there's, like, in the Pennsylvania area, they have, like, something like,

wooder. It's almost like a different way of saying it. There's so many ways. And, like, chocolate, chocolate. There's a whole bunch

of different, like, saying so. Haven't, we need to get some people on. Find a person with a real Boston accent. We'll have them on, say, Codeberg.

I don't know who that would be. I actually have somebody right now. The person who told me this, I have them up on Facebook. I just logged him to Facebook for the first time of a decade. Facebook. You're like, Hey,

bro. How would you say Codeberg? He currently lives in Boston right now. So, I mean, this guy is crazy. Those are hard to find. Are he from Boston? Or did he just, like, move there last week? From Boston?

I went to his, I went to like the home he grew up. I went to the home he grew up in. We should end the episode. I can just feel it coming. It's starting to come out of me. Yeah, we, all right. Thanks, everybody for joining us on today's episode. Stand up.

It's been a wonderful stand-up. Thanks everyone for joining us. Prime is busy right now. I've heard of saying this guy. He's really busy. He's really busy right now. So we'll see you next time. Bye.

Bye. Boot up the day. Fibing errors on my screen. Terminal coffee and hair. Live in the...