The Standup with ThePrimeagen - TheStandup - DHH Talks Omarchy

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

https://twitch.tv/ThePrimeagen - I Stream on Twitch https://twitter.com/terminaldotshop - Want to order coffee over SSH? ssh terminal.shop Become Backend Dev: https://boot.dev/prime (plus i make courses for them) This is also the best way to support me is to support yourself becoming a better backend engineer. Great News? Want me to research and create video????: https://www.reddit.com/r/ThePrimeagen Kinesis Advantage 360: https://bit.ly/Prime-Kinesis

All right. Hey, DHH, H, thank you for, T.J, are we recording? Oh, yeah, of course. Okay, good. I just want to make sure, because I don't want to be here. The hottest intro ever for this to happen. The intro. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry. To set the stage, welcome to the stand-up if you haven't been paying attention to the YouTube, T. TJ and I just got done doing a seven-day 24-7 stream live where we used O-Markey for the first time together,

which was apps. Absolutely fantastic, by the way. And so it's even more fantastic that we have DHS creator of O'Mearky here with us to talk about it. And so we have a lot of fun things we do want to discuss, including sins of DHS is what we're calling them, which is some of your shortcuts that you have chosen for O'Mkey as the defaults. I'm not going to say I'm offended, but I'm going to just say the sins of D.H. But welcome to the stand-up. Thank you very much for O'Marky, and I must say it was awesome using it during those seven days.

It was absolutely fantastic. That's awesome to hear. And then, I mean, I think the first bug report I can send in here is that the pronunciation is umachi. Okay. What happened to the R? Where did the R go in that? You swallowed it as a proper Dane. Okay.

Okay. My wife's spreading Danish right now. So that's like a joke she will definitely get because Danish has a lot of those swallow guttural sounds. So Umachi, that's what it is. All right. Umachi. Okay. that's good okay you get you know you get to decide how it said but just remember no one will listen

to me and they'll still call it that's the thing is that the creator of gif calls it jiff exactly and no one listened to that right so that's kind of the running joke so apparently dhh wasn't right about everything apparently that's actually pretty good one all right so let's kind of let's let's go back a little bit in time because uh i think a lot of people may not be familiar what or what oh Markey is, or Omachi, sorry, what Omachi is, what motivated it, all that? So why don't you kind of give us maybe like when Adam met Eve, what happened? How did this kind of come together and what was the motivation behind it? Sure. So the story actually starts back in the Apple Garden of Eden. And I've been a Mac person for 22 years. Is that about right? 2001 is when I switched when

OSX was 10.1 or 10.2? I forget if it was still a beta or not, but it was very early on. And I got really excited about the Mac because I really wanted to get out of Windows. And here was an alternative. It was built on Unix underpinnings and off we go. So I just stayed basically in that walled garden for 22 years. And I was using Linux on the server through the whole time. Very happy with that. But also had absolutely no intentions, motivations of pull towards running Linux. on the desktop. And then over those 22 years, I mean, I changed, Apple changed, and eventually my relationship with Apple also changed quite dramatically when the company just started being not someone I wanted to send all my money to. And when that kind of happened originally with

the launch of hay.com, when all the nonsense about the app store and them trying to bully us into paying 30% of our revenues to them, when that all kicked off, do you know what's funny? That even wasn't enough to yank me out of the garden. I was still like, well, this is madness, and I fought them, and we had this big blowup, and then I kept using a Mac. It really wasn't the trigger it should have been, in hindsight. That should have been like, okay, that's enough. No more.

And then I still bought, like, freaking three backers after that, right? But then I reached the point when they had their whole blowup about PWAs. I don't remember if you remember that, but they had this skirmish with the European. Union and they built this quite nice implementation of PWA into Safari. And I just build a new product on that with Campfire. Can you define PWA? So everybody. BWA for Campfire, which was really nice and was using all the tech and everything.

And I felt like, holy shit, are they going to rock pull me one more time within literally two years? Enough. So at that moment, I just decided, you know what? I can't do this anymore. I don't want to do this anymore. So the first step was actually going back to Windows. For a hot second, there's a blog post still live, me saying, I'm doing it.

I'm switching to Windows. And part of that came because WSL2 has gotten really good. Like you can actually legitimately run Linux on Windows. So all my Ruby development and so on, could it happen there? And the VS code integration is okay. And I thought, I don't really like it, but like I can do it. But then what happened was I bought a framework laptop. Literally this one, this is the ship of thesis that I still have here, the original switching to Windows laptop.

I bought the framework with Windows pre-installed. And I ran and was like, do you know what? I like the laptop a lot, but I wish it was a little quicker. I was doing all these speedometer testing and whatever. And then for whatever reason, I forget what it was. I loaded up Ubuntu on it. and it ran faster. Like, same hardware, everything the same,

and I was getting better scores on... It's crazy what not having AI in your operating system will do. It's crazy, like, or not ads directly in the toolbar will do for your, like, experience. Developers, are you tired of code reviews that just say looks good to me, or here's seven things I need you to change that are irrelevant to the PR? We'll meet CodeRabbit. AI reviews right inside your editor. Starting with VS code, cursor, and WinSurf.

Sorry, no Vim yet. Hit review and bam, outcomes feedback even before you open a poll request. CodeRabbit can help flag bugs that you're vibe coding with your LLM bots missed. And with one easy click, it can send all the context back to your favorite agenetic tools for quick fixes line by line. CodeRabbit offers a generous free tier with up to 50 code reviews per day. Grab the extension now at codrabbit.com slash primogen dash VS code. Links in the description. And ship cleaner code today.

Do you know what? Funny aside on that, that has been the dominating theme for a lot of people who've been trying Amachi lately that most people, they don't rush out and buy a brand new computer. They find like some old laptop like a 2014 or 2012 or even in 2009 and they put Amachi on it and they go like, why is this so fast? It felt like this machine basically was garbage. It was running some version of Windows or even a version of Mac and then Apple abandoned that platform. and then they put a machi on it and the machine just feels fresh it feels new, it feels fast so most of that is just Linux is so efficient it's so much easier on the hardware but for me just that experience of going like same hardware

and like the web runs quicker that's really interesting so I started giving Ubuntu a try and this was about like 18 months ago and do you know what at first I was like I don't love how this looks. It feels like I want to be kind here,

but a cheap copy of something else. It did not feel like it had its own identity. It did not feel like it was made by someone who had the same aesthetic sensibilities as I did or even the same aesthetic sensibilities at someone working at Apple. And I thought like, all right, whatever. I can make do.

And I made do and I started tweaking and then I tweeted a lot more and then I tweaked even more. And eventually, MamaCoop popped out, which was my kind of remix of Ubuntu and I ran that for about a year and then this summer literally doing the 24th of Lamont when I had some downtime during that week I started looking into Hyperland that was the first thing that sucked me into that and then I realized oh I can't run Hyperland on Ubuntu like it's not a

thing that runs on top of that what do they want oh they want arch arch I mean I I don't you joke about arch and like oh you're going to regain your virginity you She's got to run arch. And I thought like, that sounds nerdy in ways that I'm not ready for, and I'm already kind of nerdy. But it turned out I was just wrong, as often happens, with technology. You have a preconceived notion of what it is, and then you actually give it a try yourself, and you realize, oh, that's not at all what I thought it was. So starting in, like, June, I just went crazy down the rabbit hole of figuring out everything

there was to know about Arch, about Hyperland, the whole ecosystem of tooling and putting it all together. And I thought this is exactly the kind of stuff I would have thought I would hate to do until I realized, oh shit, this is exactly like Ruby and Rails. This is exactly like 2003. I'm discovering this gem, ha ha, of a programming language or an operating system. It's totally unfinished, uncomplete in terms of what I need to do my work and how I want to enjoy a computer, but I can see that these are the underpinnings that'll take me from the bare nothing you get with Arch to the promised land you can get with a fully configured hyperland setup. And I thought, you know what, if I just finish this work once, I'm going to have the perfect

computer. Like, is it worth for me to invest two weeks? This was what I thought at the time. Oh, it's just going to be two weeks. Just two weeks. Here we are three months later, right? But in two weeks, I thought I can make something that's probably going to be a lot nicer than anything I've used before. At least that was the thesis. I started doing it and I realized very quickly, yes, Hyperland, Tiling Window Managers is actually how I want to use a computer. Yes. I watched other people using Tiling Window Managers. managers, I mean, I3 and DWM and all these other ones have been around for a long time. But for whatever reason, either I was ready or Hyperland was just a lot better, it all just clicked.

Let me kind of jump in for a quick second on this. So a big thing I think makes Hyperland really special. And I do want to give a shout out to the creator is that when you get I3, you're used to this idea of a desktop environment. And I3 is like, oh, no, like, no, you don't get that anymore. And so it's like, if you want to make it look good, it's actually a, a. significant effort, whereas Hyperland's like, oh, people like things to look good. It's just going to be built in. It's going to be super simple.

Like, it's not going to be this, like, super complex experience. And so I'd say even back in the arch pre-hyperland was actually a much more, like, not as pleasant of an experience because all Tiling Windows managers weren't nearly as, you know, pleasant. Hyperland is a true, like, piece of art when it comes to operating systems. But I just want to throw that out there. Big appreciation moment. Yeah.

Which, by the way, this was one of the first things I did when we started getting going with this and realized we're going to be quite serious about it. I had, first personally, I started just helping fun Vaxbury. I mean, he's this student in Poland working on this basically just all by himself, and he created something this amazing. Like in, I don't even know if he lives in a dorm room or wherever he lives, but he does not live at one infinity loop Copertino. And he does not have three trillion dollars worth of resources to command thousands of people to do stuff for him.

And yet he, one person has been able to come up with a more appealing operating system than the one I used for 22 years. That's crazy. And I mean, crazy in the most beautiful internet stranger kind of way. And I thought that was a big part of the appeal too, that here's something that as you say, doesn't just work right, but looks amazing, looks better. The animations are smoother, they're better time, the busier curves or more as they should. And I think that's just, that's incredible, right? So I thought once I, once that clicked for me, that, oh, I didn't have a problem with Tiling Window managers.

He just had a problem with the ugly ones, as you say. I had a problem with having to, it's a DWM where you literally have to recompile it if you want to change it. I think that is. That's a bunch of unnecessary ugliness and unnecessary cumbersomeness. And here's Hyperland. That out of the box, for what it does out of the box, which, by the way, I mean, let's be fair here, isn't all of it. It's a slice. It's the tiling window management, but it looks great out of the box.

And everything is basically said on. I thought, I can really work with this. And then I discovered a few other things. Oh, a Waybar. I can do all this configuration. and I installed all the other tools, Hyper Idol, and this, that, and the other bit. And in those two weeks, I then had a system where I thought, I wouldn't go back. Like, even if Apple came tomorrow and said, sorry, dude, our bat, here's the most amazing M7 computer.

You can just have it. I'd go like, thank you. But you brought me to a better place. Namaste. I am at peace with the fact that we had some beef. And you sent me on this journey, and I ended up in a destination. that I should probably have been in five, ten years ago, I don't know. But now I'm here and I can't appreciate it more.

And I want to do exactly what I did with Ruby. I want everyone else to, well, not everyone else. I want developers at the very least to realize this exists. And you should give it a try. Because if you do, you might have the same experience I did. And now tens of thousands of others that, holy shit, I want to run. Linux? Like, what? I had literally no intention of ever doing that. Not because I didn't appreciate everything that's been built. I mean, as I said, I run Linux on the server for a billion years,

not because I didn't prefer the underlying philosophy and the open sourceness. All of those things, I just didn't think that that was something that was compatible with my aesthetic aspirations and how I wanted things to just work and all the other stuff. I was just wrong. The best possible way of being wrong when you have misconceptions about something that's free, free. And you can just take it, put it together, and then you get something incredible like this. And that almost brings us up to speed because you know what? This was three months ago. I just started this thing. Literally three months ago, is that right, math here? July 1st, I think is when the Omachi first release dropped. So, yeah, three months and change.

And here we are now, literally 10,000 people have used it. There's an enormously engaged community, which was, by the way, something that was interesting. I mean, I sort of did the same thing with Omakou, just at a very small scale. It was a remix of Bupuntum. A few other people showed up to help, and a few thousand people used it. But with Hyperland and with Arch, as the underpinnings, we're at four levels lower in the stack, which means we can fix almost everything. Nothing is set in stone.

If we don't like something, we throw it out and put something else in out. You can't do that with Ubuntu, right? Like, it's very high up into stack. You can change some colors and you can install some tweaks and so on. Arch, like ground zero, right? Like the thinnest possible layer on top of raw Linux, which means that all of these hundreds of people who are piled into the community and contributed patches and so forth, they could just fix things.

They could just do things. And we could set it up exactly how. we all wanted it. And I think that's the other part that's really capturing that unique Linux spirit. I'm not trying to sell anyone with Amachi on, you're never going to have a problem. Everything is just going to be perfectly easy. You can just drop in from Mac OS. You don't have to learn anything. I think that was a huge mistake, at least as I see it when it comes to talking to developers, that we were just selling it on philosophy. We were just selling it on like, Oh, it's sort of like a slightly worse version of Mac or slightly worse version of Windows, but it's free us in speech.

Okay. I mean, that's great. And then no one gives a fuck, right? Like, they just want a better system. They just want something that works. And a lot of people right now, they just want something that has a long lasting battery, which we can talk about later. It's the most amusing final stand that Apple has for everyone I talked to is like, how's good is the battery? Holy shit.

Apple's been reduced to a battery. battery company. That's what you do now. You're do or sell. You're the little bunny that goes like a little longer in the commercial than the competing battery. Jesus Christ, what a fall. Anyway, just if we get to this place where we have a system, you can change everything, you can make everything better, and then you can iterate on it. And I can cut a new release. And a week later, you've made a change to an operating system that's then distributed to. tens of thousands of people, like, for a lot of people, again, if you're hardcore Linux nerd and you're already running on like latest, uh, get versions of everything, like this is new to you.

But a lot of people that I talk to normally, they're used to commercial operating systems. They're used to Mac. They're used to Windows. It's not how it works. Like, you're not going to send your little patch to Apple and say, like, ah, liquid glass. Could you make it a little less liquid? Like, that's not a thing that's going to happen. You don't have access to the source code.

You don't have access to anything. And what they're just going to tell you is like, shut up, it's perfect, right? We know best. We know best. We know best. Which, by the way, I mean, that's ironic because I'm totally the same way. In a sense that I know best for the install version that you're going to get. Umachi, actually, for a hot second, had a bare mode where you could install it without all my other programs that I wanted to install.

And we ran that for a little bit until I decided, like, that was stupid. OMA in the Omachi name literally stands for Oma Kase, literally stands for chef's choice. Literally stands for, I decide what's on the menu for starters, right? But what's so beautiful about open source in the same way it was with Ruby and Rails, which is also super opinionated about everything,

and it comes with all these configuration points already set, was that you could take that and then go like, I'll give it a minute, and then I'm going to want to change five things. And then you just can. It's your computer. You can literally change anything you want, rip out any decisions I've made,

put your own in there, and we can still be friends. What? Isn't that great? And then it's wonderful to see that act you in practice, right? Like all these people have installed Amachi, and then I look at their desktop and like, I can squint and I can still see my vision in it,

but I also see their vision. And I think that's just a uniquely wonderful beautiful part of running Linux on the desktop. We used to that. A lot of web developers are used to that with our frameworks, with our tooling. You can set a patch to React or a patch to Rails, and it might make it into the next release. And it gives you some satisfaction. But the satisfaction you get from changing the tools you're directly touching and seeing

and how the windows move around, that exists on a different level of pleasure, I'd say. You go, Tej. Okay, well, I was just wondering, you know, since you said that this all started in the garden of, you know, Apple and stuff. And if you've ever thought about this logo, DHH, have you ever thought about this, but this is a piece of fruit with a bite out of it. It's an intentional design, too. Holy shit. What? Yeah.

You want to hear a follow up funny? And it's, yeah, go ahead, prime. The follow-up funny, even though Steve Wozniak determined the first price of the Apple one, which they sold for $666. He liked repeating numbers, but just like all art is but nature unknown to thee. Like it's very funny, the accidental symbolism that all just runs into each other, even when it unintentional because Steve Wozniak was ardently not trying to do something. He just loved repeating numbers, and that was the one that fit into the budget the best.

Yeah, I do like when sort of the... metaphors all line up. I do like when you can tell a nice story where the things fits and the characters line up. I will absolutely use that bite of the apple thing. It's just funny. All right. Yeah. By the one, so what we're trying to say

is Apple's literally Satan. No, one thing and we love laws. But there's something super important in what you said, which is just I've experienced it. I've felt it. I understand the feeling, which is the

the problem of choice. And when you first start, like say something like Vim, there's so many ways to navigate. There's so much you have to go through. It just feels so overwhelming because it's not even just that you have to choose. You have to like actively engage in this like,

just this weird struggle with yourself to use something completely different. And the same thing with switching from, say, Mac, which you do nothing and you just press buttons and things appear. And you just use a mouse and that's it. And you're like, oh, this is fantastic. You don't have the problem of choice. And you're actually seeing this.

happen more and more it's happening uh if you use almost any major streaming thing now you'll see it's something that's just like think for me and they'll just show you something i'm also convinced this is why shorts are super popular the shorts you decide when you don't want to watch you don't decide what to watch so you're just like oh i like that oh i don't like that oh i like this and so it's like this constant feed and so omarchie taking or omachi taking the stance of we're going to give you something that you can just use and then you can progressively make that choice wider and wider i think is something that's going to be really, like, it's a very powerful, like, amplifier that will get many, many more people using something. And it just makes me very excited. And I want to make sure,

though, that we stay in the tension that the on-ramp is as low as possible. Zero effort to give it a try, but not zero effort to stay. Because what I don't like about shorts and a lot of other media and tooling and computers, that you never have to think, you never have to engage with. You never have to learn anything. You never have to get better. I actually think is a complete dead end. They got the first part right. It should be so frictionless to try, to see if this is something for you.

Because why should you invest endless hours, customizing your setup and doing all this stuff? If you don't even like it in the end, that's a complete waste of time. And that's what kept me away from Linux for a long time, away from even NeoVim for some time. I could see something there. that I thought this is really cool, but if it requires me 40 hours to even just set up a base

config, I'm sorry, that's a next year project and next year becomes next year and it becomes never. I want an opportunity to try this out and see if it's something for me and then I'll know whether it's worth the investment. So this is quite to the core of the philosophy of design I'm trying to imbue Umachia with. So easy to get started. We will be. not just the easiest, but the damn fastest Linux distribution you've ever installed that gives you an entire system. I mean, you guys have teach. I think it was your run that has the record world record for a match installed one minute, 46 seconds. Like, think about that for a second. How many times have you spent like tens of minutes just doing a minor upgrade of macOS or

in so case even hours installing windows? and getting the updates and being stuck in that loop. And then we install an entire system that is way more featureful, way more full stacky for a developer in a minute and 46 seconds. Like that's crazy. In fact, if you told me at the start of Amachi that we could get to that, that you could get to an install in a minute 46. I'd say, no way.

Like there's stuff. And then I realized what stuff? How fast can you copy Omachi? The ISO is six gigabytes. How long does it take to copy six gigabytes? That should actually be our floor for how quickly you can install on something. It's a few seconds. Okay, we can't do it in a few seconds.

But then it's unreasonable to think that even we need 10 minutes. On a very fast modern computer, we should be able to do it. I originally thought if we can just get to like five to seven minutes, that'd be amazing. And we kept discovering that the reasons things were slow were stupid. There were absolutely no reason that this stuff had to be slow. You could set up, especially Arch, in such a way that it was just lightning quick to install, which directly serves that purpose of getting someone to try something with absolute minimal effort, yet still being on the road to reel.

There's a bunch of people who've asked for like live CD stuff where you sort of kind of tried, but it kind of sucks because it's running off the USB. And I'm like, that's not what I want to spend my time on. I want to spend my time on you watch a video, you watch the people, and you go like, I want to give this a real shot on maybe an old laptop, maybe a new one. I don't care, but it's for real and you can actually use it. And then you'll be up at running in an unrealistically short amount of time. A surprising wait, what is it done?

Amount of time. And then you'll give it a try. And if you don't like it, you've wasted what? Five minutes? Okay. I mean, you fucking waste five minutes scrolling on TikTok 20 times a day or whatever you scroll on, whatever doom scrolling is your pleasure, right? And if it actually piqued your interest, you can now spend another two hours or five minutes and start using it.

And over the next year, you can plow in as many hours as you want. You can keep learning, you keep getting better. But I'm not going to keep it so simple that if you need to actually do anything or change anything, you don't have to learn anything. I want you to learn this stuff. This is why, OMashi is actually kind of hardcore. If you go to edit any of the config files, I just dump you into NeoBim. like yeah sorry dude swim or sink like

WQ do you know it do not uh you'll find out because otherwise you can't quit you can't save and I think that's that needs to be part of it Dumachi experience is not just that it's easy and then it's flat no no we're going to fucking Mount Everest dude

pack your backpacks the first little stroll is going to be completely flat terrain and the birds are going to be singing but if you want to learn you got to have some incline and you got to keep going. Yeah, I was cracking up because I was tweeting at you while we were installing like, curse you, DHH. I was planning and getting so much stuff done in between installs here. And I kept on having to move down the line to like install the next one.

Right here, I'm pretty sure this is the computer that I got the world record on. So I just wanted to, you know, shout out framework. We got some cool tiles here too. So anyways, that's the one. I also think this is funny, by the way. I mean, this framework thing is actually part of this moment. I mean, I've been pushing framework ever since I switched to Linux. But I think the framework desktop, I have one over there in the corner as well, and it's got a little bit muchy tiles on it too.

There's just something perfect about things coming together at the same time. And this is what I found with Hyperland is also relatively new. If I tried this five years ago, there wouldn't have been a Hyperland. There wouldn't have been, I think Vaxry started on it three years ago, maybe. framework wouldn't exist in this form. There wouldn't be this competitive AMD alternative to the M-chips. So all of these bits are coming together. And also, we wouldn't have had the blessing that is Mac OS 26.

We wouldn't have at Tahoe. We wouldn't have had Microsoft stopping Windows 10. We wouldn't have had all these gifts. They're like, hey, are you guys running marketing for Linux right now? Like, what's going on here? This is a little fishy. He's impending sleeper agents into Microsoft and Apple. Josh, everything.

such that Linux looks so much better in comparison. But I've also found this is why it's so magic that you can be right, but at the wrong time and then nothing changes. Like there's been people who've been right about Linux for a very long time, right? Like they've been literally ringing the bell, the year of Linux on the desktop since what is it, 99? Is that when that meme started? It's a long, long time.

suddenly the moment meets reality. The moment meets the talent. The moment meets the momentum. And now we got hyperland. We got framework computers. We got great MD chips. We got Arch. We got all of it.

And I go like, now let's go. So I put all this work in, get it out there. And the response has just been crazy. I mean, I'm sure you guys see that. I have not seen this level of. novel excitement from people who don't just like, oh, that's kind of nice, but are just head over heels in love with the new system that they've found since evangelizing Ruby back in the mid-2000s.

It feels like that kind of moment. All right, I got to jump in and we got to circle back a little bit here. I want to talk first about the ease curve to where it goes like you don't have to learn anything into, oh, you have to learn everything, right? Like there's, you are along that path when you start down. this road. I really, I think this is one of the most important things because I remember this being drilled into me over and over and over again during my time of open source at Netflix and during internal tool development, which is always make every tool so someone doesn't have to learn something.

And I found that the interfaces would get more and more abstract to the point where when you had to do something, due to the fact that the North Star was never learned something, doing something became progressively harder. Because there was always this idea that you should never have to learn. And it's just like this thing that just makes me bonkers with kind of modern direction of web development,

which is don't learn. You don't need to learn. Hey, we're going to make the most perfect thing for you. Just don't learn. Just use what we have. It's perfect 100% of the time. It's going to change every year, but it's going to be perfect because we have it perfect now.

So it's just like this weird mentality. And I don't blame anyone from falling into it because learning is, it takes time, it takes effort. it can feel very daunting. Sometimes when you think something's complicated, it feels complicated to look underneath the covers and you realize, oh, it's actually,

oh, it's just a bunch of if statements in four loops. Oh, okay, it's actually not that complicated. It's pretty simple. And so I wanted to call that out. I know we're way past that time because I just feel so strong about that philosophy of don't ever want to learn, make everything the pit of success

because it just makes everything awful. Like, if you would have done that with Omachi, I don't think I would have liked it because I couldn't take control because it had been like so wall-gardened off I would have hated it. I would have just disliked that experience greatly. And so I'm just very happy that that is the mentality

because that is just, it just kills me on the inside that that that isn't it. And I see it all the time in chat too. People always say things like, oh, like Neil Vim's too complicated of a text editor. Like, oh, we just saw one.

Someone just said that just recently. It's the kind of the same mentality, which I totally understand. Again, big investment up front, but I would argue it's, it's by far less complicated than VS code. Like, I don't know what you mean by that.

Like it's, it, but it's just, because it's, it's, it's, it's opt in is for customization. It's optin is not for you using their interface. And so that's like this experience of, you need to sharpen your own axe, as TJ likes to say. You gotta spend a lot of time sharpening the axe before you go to the tree. And some, you know, some pieces of software require a lot more sharpening,

but when you get it to that point, it feels really great, right? Like, it is really great to use. And so I just, I just love that experience. So I just had to get that out there. Just absolutely love it. I just can't even stand that it's not the default of everybody's kind of like position. And I think this is actually key to why Linux hasn't succeeded in its primary mission on the desktop for a long time, because it was trying to copy exactly what you're saying, that theme set from macOS and set from Windows,

that this needs to be able to be instantly usable by everyone, regardless of skill level and interest in learning. And I'm like, no, when it comes to developers, or I'd like to say anyone who just like, likes computers. That's where I've tried to distinguish that Umachi is not just for developers. It's for people who legitimately like computers. Now, that's a minority of people who use computers. I'll tell you that. Most people don't like computers. They begrudgingly accept that they have to use them to get things done. A surprising number of developers don't even like their computers, which blows my mind. You have picked the wrong career buddy if you don't even like computers. But if you

like computers. You should like to use them well. You should like to want to use them well. And Umachi from the get go, I have some of these lines here where you know, you have to learn some key bindings. Like the mouse is not going to really help you all that much unless you learn that, um, super space starts the app launcher. Um, super alt space starts the Umachi menu. Um, super return starts a new terminal. Super B starts a browser, Super A, starts your AI. Like, there's just a handful of Super X. Yeah, you forgot. Super X.

Yeah. For X. And about it. Yeah. Correct. I called me everything. For my music and Super O for Obsidian. And like, there's a bunch of tools that you have to get that into your fingers.

And it's going to take a little while. And while you're waiting to load that in, it's going to be a little frustrating. And this is exactly actually inspired by me learning. neovim because part of the hardship I had getting out of the Mac was actually not even the Mac integration, all this stuff. It was TextMate, an editor I'd been using since 2006, and I really love that I still love. And obviously, it just doesn't run on anything else. It just runs on the Mac. So I had to find something else. And first I tried my hand with VS code, which is inspired by textmates in some ways and similar in other ways, but ultimately for me, unfulfilling. And it was actually

you guys are stuff and a few other YouTubers who got me into you know what? Maybe I could learn NeoVim. Maybe I could learn Vim again.

Maybe I should give this another go and then realizing that the first two days totally sucked because I felt like not just a beginner but like a child

who can't articulate basic words, right? Like I want to say something but the words aren't there like meme foogie and it was like what do you want do you want portrait?

No, I fuck me want strawberries. You idiot, why won't you just give me the strawberries? Just because I don't know the word. And I felt like that in the O'bib for a little while, for a couple of days. It's like, I want to do the thing, but I don't know how to do the thing and now I'm going to look it up and now I just deleted five lines. Jesus. That's real.

That is very real. But if you make it through to the other side and you level up, you go like, holy shit. I am doing things now with my hotkey combos that I, you're doing things now with my hotkey combos that I, could never do in BS code or I could never do even in text-main. I don't love text-mate. So the investment, two days of pain, a week of real intense learning, and then what, another 20 years of payoff? What an amazing investment. Can I find more investments like that where it hurts for like a couple of days? And then maybe it's annoying for a week. And then it's incredible for the next decade. That is a kind of investment that should just be a no-brainer

for anyone who likes computers and want to get better at them. Another framing for this is a professional computer, right? Like there's something about pro in a way where it doesn't just mean fucking, I don't know, aluminum railings on your phone or some stupid shit like that. That pro in the literal sense of it, here's a tool made for people whose career depend on it. Like those can actually require learning because it's worth making the investment because this is how you make your money. This is how you enjoy your hobby.

So we can make this investment and it's going to be worth it. And the mental image I had in my mind for a long time was all travel agents or even flight check-in attendance. I don't know if you've seen some of those who work those terminals that are like those terminals are still archaic, right? Yeah. And you just hear the keys. You can just hear like all the hot keys and they're jumping back and forth and it goes. Yeah, okay, your flight is now booked to. Atlanta.

And you're like, here's someone who really needed to learn to be fast and proficient at that task and learned all these bindings. Or you see the same thing with someone working the numpad if they're an Excel wizard. And you just go out. Oh, yeah. Shit, look at that skill. It's like some of those videos where they throw up the coconut and like he just chops it like four times. And like, whoa, that skill. Why don't we want that?

As a developer, as someone who likes computers, don't you want that kind of skill? Like an Excel shark doing the numpad or a checking agent just tapping away or someone cutting a coconut real cool? You should want that. You should not want like, oh, can I use the same lethargic way of using a computer that literally a monkey could figure out? Did that no, no, no. Yeah, the analogy too that I like using is that like my software development career is a marathon, guys. Like, it's not a sprint. Yes.

So, like, getting something done over this weekend versus the, like, hopefully, you know, 20 to 30, 40 years that I'm still hopefully going to be writing code or whatever that looks like in 30 years. I don't know, but still whatever. The, like, I still, it actually matters to invest in figuring out how to do those things, which doesn't mean you have to pick NeoVim. You know what I mean? But, like, figure out your tool that actually works and, like, understand it because you want to do that. And then the other thing that I also talk about in that sort of marathon mindset is like, if you're liking programming, you're going to want to learn it more. Like, go ahead and trick your brain into doing the thing that you like.

So then it's like, oh, I'm looking forward to sitting down at my computer and smashing the keys and doing something instead of, oh, it's Monday and I have to write code again. Your career is going to not be as good. Perspective is a huge thing. Like it is one of the most I mean I still remember dying on the cliff of I just want to do real work which was always something else right which was always some other task and then I was always encumbered by like my tasks at my job and instead at some point I just I just remember being like I could just make this fun instead like I can figure out the best way to do this thing and just like dork out on this even if I don't like even if my love for the actual task isn't there dude I got the me and Sam Alman love the game is there though and so it's just like I got to just do it for that really. I got to do it for the love of the game. It just changes everything when you're just like, oh, this could be fun. Like even TJ and I, the game we're making, making the little enemy icons for where they pop out, it's just just like genuinely, like when you really think about it, it's just a boring task.

Do a little bit of math, do a little bit offset, paint a couple things right here, put some enemies in, call it a day. Or you can be like, how can I make this the greatest experience you could possibly have for this one little thing? What makes this awesome? How can I program this so that it's awesome and easy to maintain so that other people can come and extend it or do something with it that actually is meaningful? Like instead of just being so like, oh, got to do one more thing, one more thing, like make it good because it's fun. It's actually fun. Have fun with it. And do you know what?

The most fun is to be competent. The most fun is to be good. The most fun is to have learned a bunch of stuff such as to look back upon how silly you were a year ago in your ignorance, in your lack of skill. And now you've stepped up the mountain. You've gotten higher towards the peak and the top. And this is actually one of the reasons why I'm so focused on aesthetics as well. Because not all programming tasks, as you say, even in stuff that I'm making for us and I'm excited about the general vision, like not all of it is going to be just super exciting, the problem itself.

But if I'm working in a cool environment that looks great and I can get satisfaction out of applying my competence in ways where the code just looks super nice and is very, very nicely structured, and I pick just to write words for my objects, and boom, now I'm just switching my Umachi theme to Osaka Jade because it's nighttime and it's all green, and I just go like, I love how this computer looks. Yeah. I want to use it more, as you say to you. I want to sit down and hammer those keys. It's one of the reasons why the mechanical keyboard has done such wonders for me as well. Another thing I just slept on for all these years when I heard nerds talk about the mechanical keyboards and I went like I got a magic keyboard thank you very much it literally has magic in the name guys yeah exactly that's magic in the name how much better can it be

and then I was like I tried a couple of mechanical keyboards and I didn't love him I was like see apple was right and then it's right the right mechanical keyboards and I went like are you telling me that not only can my operating system look amazing I can literally listen to thawkey heaven while typing? What kind of, like, is this a job? Like, I should be paying for this privilege. I shouldn't be paying for this. This is amazing.

And I think setting yourself up in such a way where literally like just making keystrokes is a pleasurable experience because you get the little thawk and you get the nice touches and all the stuff. And then you're looking to, or it's a beautiful vista of what the computer's like and you've got just to write things

and you've got all your little key bindings. You can take on a lot of tabs. that would otherwise in a more mundane environment feel quite dull, and it'll be enjoyable. And then you just get through, like, more of the time, I'm having fun in front of my computer, solving problems, learning new things, getting better. Yeah.

This just made me think of, like, the obvious parallel of this is like, hey, would you rather work in an office with fluorescent lights overhead and, like, a really uncomfortable chair? and like your neighbors yelling randomly about something annoying? Or would you rather have like a nice office with pleasant life? Like everyone's like, yes, of course, I want the nice version. I will work better and I will have a better time and I will be more productive. Otherwise, like, why is Google spending a trillion dollars on their headquarters?

Right. They clearly think the way, the place you work affects the way that you work. Right. So then, oh, but as soon as we put it on a screen, that's for children. in, you know, or something like. And there's a lot of Linux thinking that's like that. In my opinion, unfortunately so. And I have the greatest respect for people who don't give a shit about this stuff that

we've been talking about. And you just want like, I was watching this infamous YouTube video. Maybe we talked about it the last time with the guy is writing a device driver in Linux for something, for some old machine. There's not even since it's highlighting, right? Like he's, I don't think he's even using BIM. He's using B.I or something. And you just sit like, he's working there and he's like, I don't even see any of that stuff.

I don't even care. I'm like, holy shit, that's kind of amazing. And I respect the hell out of that. And also that is not me at all. And I could not work like that. I don't want to work like that. I want my fonts to look super crisp. I want some nice colors.

I want all the stuff. I want it to look nice. That's what I need. And massive respect to the old guard of Linux folks who didn't need any of those things. The beauty of the moment. is that we can coexist and make just everything better for everyone. We get all this core Linux stuff from a bunch of people who not only couldn't give too fucks about aesthetics or actively hostile towards the even idea that things should look good, which I find interesting.

But then you also have the new guard, people like Vaxry, who just shows up with Hyperland, and it just looks incredible and it looks buttery smooth, right? Like all the animations are just at the right curves and full 60 FPS. And you just go like, holy shit, I can get, I have my cake and eat it too. I can literally get access to 30, whatever, four years of Linux goodness. And now it can also look amazing and feel amazing and sound amazing. That's amazing. And it's all free.

And I get to change it whenever I want. And there's all these community of people who care about the things in just the same way that I care about things. Man. So there is some fun things about that. You know, you mentioned the person with no syntax highlighting. You may not realize this, but 1982 was like the first, like, software of syntax highlighting. There were some basic ones in a couple editors beforehand, but it didn't really even come onto the scene until the 80s.

You know, like, Gwe-based desktops were also not, you know, like, they're just recent memory. There are people that you interact with every day that were alive and working before. Those things were even available, right? So it's like, you know, I'm not that old, and it's within my lifetime. I was only born a couple years after syntax highlighting. And so it's like that's actually kind of mind-blowing that, you know, this exists. And so even the aesthetics of this and how it's going is so relatively new. So many people don't realize, like even something as simple as autocomplete was rarely available,

unless if you were in Visual Studio Code, Visual Studio Express, or not even Visual Studio Code, that wasn't a thing. Visual Studio Enterprise to use. enterprise or express you could get express and it worked with c which was pretty awesome right like there's a couple things you could actually get it to work on or x-n a studios with c sharp express uh and net beans and that's because java java had a pretty extensive version of all that and like that's there was a couple other but that was about it you couldn't use any language you couldn't just get it for free all the time and so it's like so much of our life has only recently in the last

just a little bit of time kind of started to come together where this is available more broadly and so it's just like, we're only at the very beginning of all this stuff of things looking really nice and actually knowing what nice even looks like. I think that you're going to see a lot of people not, maybe not valuing it. I mean, me personally, I'm not a huge valuer of the nice things as much as I am of the distraction-free things. I like the editor that is full-screen. No, I don't want to see anything on there. I just want it to very, very simple.

When I type, I want to see very few pop-ups, if any, I don't want a lot of hints. I just want to keep it, you know, clean and streamlined. And there's this, like, aesthetic beauty to nothingness because it helps me do the thing, right? There's a weird world betwixt the two that exists. But I also love the look of Omachi when you, like, load it up. It just looks and feels good. I like the screensaver. So I'm like, oh, man, I'm like stuck between two worlds of I want it all and I want nothing at the exact same time.

You're not stuck. You're enjoying just that golden middle road. When I got started with Ruby and Red Rails, I was like, do you know what? I love the hacker culture of PhP. Just get something working, immediate gratification. Amazing, but I don't want to live in Spaghetti Code land. And then I also really enjoy Java, the rigor and the patents and whatever, but I also don't want to spend four days setting up my XML config file. Is there a golden middle path?

Of course there is. Can we take the best from PHP and the best from Java and get something in the middle that is both quick and rigorous? The same is true here. Can we take sort of the minimalism, the beauty of no distractions in Linux land? And just make it look nice with great fonts and great colors and things that don't dance around. It's funny because the distraction-free and the calmness of that, I've gotten a lot of pull requests for changing the way bar. And people want to stick all sorts of things in. They want to stick in like, which track is playing.

And it should be rotating or maybe they should even have like the equalizer bars. And then they want to see the weather. And I'm like, yeah, we're not doing any of that. I don't want any movement at all in my way bar. I want once a minute, one number gets to change. That's it. That's what I want to see. The clock at the top is the only thing that's allowed to change. I love, by the way, your clock. Can I just throw that out there? You did not put the year on there, which I am so thankful for. That is like, that drives me bonkers. That clocks have like the full extended year. You're like, I don't need that, man. Just give me the simple stuff. Dude, I spent like two days sweating what the clock and the dates should look like on that. And lining it up just right and trying it full length and short length on the other side and this side. And like just really,

nerding out about the individual positions. I'm really glad that you appreciate that. Most people don't see it. Most people see, like, I want more. And do you know what? What's so funny is that I think Omachi is mainlining rising culture into a more general audience. And there are some folks in rising land who just love like everything is dancing, right? Like everything is playing.

Everything is swooping up and down. And I go like, I love the creativity of that. But I'm also building like a pro desktop. And that sounds kind of snotty. It really is not meant to be. I'm creating the computing platform I want to work on all day long. I want to be surrounded by beautiful calm things, right? Beautiful shapes, beautiful colors, crisp font, all of that stuff.

Not like everything's going to bounce around and not the wifus and not the anime characters. All the other stuff that rising culture is also kind of very fond of. and I think it's totally fine. If you're 19, like smash all the Japanese anime girls, all of you. There's so peace be with you. That doesn't really work for me. That's not what I want. Can you give me just a peacefully serene sunset?

Like, that's a default backdrop. Brian, what's that one repo that you have for anime waifu backgrounds? Anime. Oh, you literally have a whole repo for it. I have a repo for it because I know how much chat loves them. That sounds like the secret stash on your heart drive. you're hiding for your mom. Mom is just porn.

It's not out of me. Don't worry. That reminds me, though, too, of what you're saying, like, if I went to a mechanics office, like a mechanic shop, right? And they just have, like, a million lights playing and, like, a smoke machine and all this stuff. I might be like, I feel like this is not the professional setting I need to solve my car issues, right?

So it's nothing against smoke shows or, like, laser light exhibits. But I think I want my mechanic. to be like straightforward he can fix my problems i feel the same thing about my work computer right like so there is something to that here where it doesn't have to be gray it doesn't have to be dull it doesn't have to be corporate right but it can be calm and beautiful and aesthetically pleasing and also the place where i do work i this is one of the things i got some shit for was umachi when you use the iso does not give you the option not to have full disc encryption like that's just not a negotiable thing for me because it's irresponsible for you to install a work operating system,

especially in a laptop with company data on it if there's no full disk encryption. So that's just not a relevant domain for me. I'm making this for professionals. You can do whatever you want. You could always just install arch first, not install full disk encryption, then install Amachi. Great. That's a side quest for you.

And then for me, the straight highway line of getting Omachi out to your computer involves full disc encryption because this is for work. I think I sometimes called it without, though, because Ed hacked your computer while we were there, didn't you, problem? Yeah, I mean, no, it was it was someone else's computer, yes, but there was something that went on there. But I did, I did want to throw this in there, which is the, just going back to kind of like the dancing and the hyper, like, rising and all that, I am not on, I am not quite on that side. I don't really enjoy that stuff, but I love the idea of how can you make a complicated thing into something super simple that you can get the same information out of. And so like Tia, like a good example is when Tij and I were working on the tower defense, we had this really complicated menu. And we worked many days to turn it into something that's like small and very easy to understand.

And that small, easy change. Now, it just feels 10 times better because you're like, I get the same information for one tenth the cost. How do I do that constantly? And that's kind of like that. That's my version of rising is like, how do I get maximum information with absolutely no cost to it? And I think Apple for a long time was the best at this. Like, this is why I think they got so successful as they, did all these things and made you feel good using them.

The other thing, too, that I think where, you know, people doing rising don't get enough credit is like sometimes when you push the system really hard in a direction, it like opens up easier pathways to, like, oh, we want to be able to make dancing wifus show up in the way bar. So it needs to be able to refresh at crazy speeds. And then all of a sudden, oh, well, I just want kind of like a little equalizer to show up, right? And then it's like, oh, well, that's simple. We already did dancing 4K anime wifuos. You just want the equalizer.

That's simple. And like, I had this experience with, like, the reason I started telescope for Neovim, I was not trying to make a fuzzy finder that people would use. I was literally just looking for a real world project to test Lua integration. So I was just trying to push. Where does Lua integration fall short? What features do we need to work on? What are we prioritizing?

What can we make a full-featured Lua plugin that does like a million things inside of NeoVim? And what is it missing to make Lua feel truly built in a native? Because it was not at the time. It was still Vim script for so much stuff, right? And like it happened to be useful. But like that was effectively like and, you know, people were all like, we already have FCF. Like, why are you rising NeoVim for nothing? And I'm like, I'm just trying to figure out what we need to do in NeoVim CORE to fix a bunch of problems.

And so sometimes I think, like, they don't get enough credit for pushing the system hard in, like, different verticals. And then it makes it really easy to figure out how to do whatever, you know, whatever you need for Omachi, you know, that kind of thing, which I think is, you know, they should get a little more credit for that. There's get huge credit. I think the exploration that has gone on in the rising world is what's sort of the vanguard of what allows us to all do all this stuff now. hyperland turned into, I think it is the most popular place to implement these risings that is on our Unix porn and these other places that collect the risings. And I always look at that and go like, oh, this is too much. I literally say that almost every time. This is too much.

But here's a kernel of something that is incredible. I'm going to borrow that. I'm going to put that into sort of a slightly calmer version. You've explored the terrain. You've showed me all the things that are possible. I only want 5% of it. But if you hadn't turned on the light in that room, I wouldn't have gotten any of it.

So incredibly grateful that this is happening. And not just for what I get out of it for the operating system. I want to run, but making computers fun and personal and quirky, that is a huge win and accomplishment in and of itself. I think this is one of the things I've both liked and really disliked about. the Apple years that we just sat around and waited for Apple to give us something and Apple was really

good it's giving us nice things but how many people work at Apple in their design department I mean it's a handful of people how many people work on the internet and have crazy ideas in their bedroom about either anime wifus or something else and then want to see it happen in the world and accidentally discover something incredible a lot more a lot more and if we sort of harness all the all of that exploration and go like, all right, this is all the things that are not possible. I'm gonna take the best of it, I'm gonna compress the complexity of it,

I'm gonna compress the information density as you say, I'm gonna boil it down to just the best of the best of the best of all of that. You're gonna just end up with something so pure and so incredible that we can all benefit from and that we can benefit from without having to spend 150 hours on our, amazing, unique Hyperland rising.

And those things can coexist, which is also what I love. That now Amach is here and anyone can get a beautiful, amazing system in literally two minutes. That's how long it takes to install it. And then Hyperlade is still here with all the bells and whistles and knobs that you can turn on and you can transform your operating system into something that looks like a 1996 adventure game on the Amiga. I think that was the guy who won the latest Hyperland rising contest. He literally turned it into what looked like an Amiga game from like 96. And I'm like, I didn't know computers could still look like this. And you're telling me that a modern operating system can be turned into this.

I love it. I don't want to run it every day, but I love it. I love that sense of creativity for the hell of it. What is the guy getting out of it? Personal gratification and satisfaction and admiration from his peers. That is the most pure and pristine motivation you'll find out there. And we should applaud it with both hands. And we had none of it, none of it during the Apple years.

All we could do was sit around and say like, oh, it's time for WWDC again. Then let's clap at all those people and what they put out. And again, it's not that there's something bad about it. It was just that it was such a mediated way of using your computer. Like now we can really get into theology here, but there's some parallels between Catholicism and Protestantism about like, do you get to read your own Bible? Or do you have to get the word of the Lord handed to you by some priest in a funny hat? And that's the only way you can get that connection, right? I'm more on the direct connection part of it.

I'm more of the direct connection to my operating system and being able to interact with that. glory. So we shouldn't call you the Pope of Omachi is what you're saying. He's no. He wants something different. He wants the 10 color of Omachi, okay. Church door. That's pretty good. That is actually really, really good. That would be technically the night. Actually, that's the 99 feces. There's got to be an ashley.

Actually. The high church actually is pretty crazy. Well, this has been fantastic. I know you have a tight deadline, so I think you're right around the time you have to head off, right? Yeah, I haven't had dinner yet, and I'm starting to starve. That's important. Yeah. Well, let's make sure that you can get that dinner.

DHH, thank you so much for joining us and just talking about, oh, Machi. I know you want to come back on again here soon. Maybe we can do something on just Ruby and all the stuff that's going on because I think a lot of people are confused at all the things. and I did want to end with, we've been playing around with AI generated music and taking your articles and making bangers out of them. And I've listened to your, it takes 10 years article,

maybe 100 times and just you talking about this. Again, this whole O-Marchie thing, or Machi thing comes down to this idea that you put a bean counter at the very, very top, someone who's not quite, you know, dedicated to the product, but is good at hitting numbers. And it's just like, now look at you, you're upset, you're angry,

and it took 10 years for it to kind of slowly fall apart. And it's just like, it's starting to happen for a lot of people now, where this idea that people who aren't in charge are the people who are also living and breathing that product. And that's why one person, a singular child from Poland, who's probably not even like 24 years old, can outperform a huge swath of people

because they just relied on something completely different. You can just see, you can feel it. One has, one's in it for the love of the game, you know? And I think what's so mad at this moment right now is that we have this collective, realization that Apple is no longer what it was like in 12, 2012 or 2015 even, that it's a different kind of company. And it's rare, again, that this pendulum swings for everyone, like sort of at the same time. And this has been so remarkable for me to see that in many ways Apple still makes some

really nice stuff. They have really nice laptops that have long batteries. Big battery life. I love that battery company. It's my favorite one. They're a really nice battery company now that makes nice aluminum enclosures for their very nice battery tech. And we can sort of look at that and go like, do you know what? I want something more. Like I'm not going to pick my computer just on the basis of who has the best do or sell lasting batteries, right? And that we're all coming and all, right? Like I'm in an eco chamber.

Everyone is an eco chamber. But so many people are coming to that realization at the same time. that's there's something there's something in the air i i could sniff it right and this is why the joke that this is the year of linings on the desktop is both funny because we've been saying it for all these years but i also actually legitimately think it's true it's i do too it is going to fucking happen 2026 we're not going to look at whatever 2% 5% market share within the segment of people really like computers within developers i think this is going to happen gradually and then very suddenly Well, awesome.

Let's see, where can people find some information about you, DHHH? DHH.DK, that's my personal site, has links to everything. And then Umachi.org has the link to the ISO, the link to the manual, the link to my video. All right. And then there's a website that's like something like Omicon or something coming in 2026. What's that all about? What is that all about? Yeah.

I want to make a small conference for Umachi, for this whole idea of Omikasa software, for this whole new wave of Linux with vibes, as the tagline says, right? This marriage of everything that we've been talking about for the last hours. So that now is the moment, now the aesthetics, now the functionality, now Hyperland, now Arch, now NeoVim, it's all coming together. And we should celebrate that. And we should celebrate it in person because, both the people who are involved in all that should meet up and just I want to give

Vaxri a high five and I want to give you high five and I want to see people who are building this future and then I also want to have fun with people who are excited about it. So next year, I'm pretty sure we have a venue and I'm pretty sure we have a city and I'm pretty sure you guys are going to figure out how to make some spectacular YouTube videos out of it and I think it's going to be a lot of fun. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you very much, DHS for coming on. Thank you very much for watching the stand-up every Wednesday and Friday at 10 a.m. Pacific time.

And, of course, 11 a.m. The Lord's time. That's my time. And there we go. That's it. Thank you very much. Thanks for joining us. Play the song. Play the song. The 10-year song. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It's the best. You can end it with just back. Once the CEO's seed is given to someone without an engineering of product. It's been the story of Boeing and Ten. Now Apple legendary American companies that all got lost when a bean counter-marketing man Logistics hand took over Boeing's trouble started when they were taken over by McDonald

Douglas in 1997 but really accelerate with no aerospace background the result after 10 years of of cost cutting and outsourcing was the 737 max The maxim sees tragedies and an organization gutted of ambition and engineering pride.