The Ultimate Human with Gary Brecka - 177. Dr. Judith Joseph: How to Recognize High Functioning Depression Signs and Find Treatment

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

Crushing it professionally, but feeling empty inside? This is what Dr. Judith Joseph calls, “high-functioning depression.” Here’s what’s really happening: You’re pathologically productive, wearing a mask of success while experiencing anhedonia — the clinical term for losing joy in things that once lit you up. In this episode, she breaks down the five V’s framework that can restore your natural capacity for joy. What’s one small thing you’re going to plan joy into your week? Ready to take back control of your cellular biology? Join my FREE 3-Day Ultimate Detox Challenge starting June 23rd. I’ve taken the exact protocols I use with pro athletes and CEOs and simplified them for everyday implementation. Sign up here: https://bit.ly/3ZgCW4u Join the Ultimate Human VIP community: https://bit.ly/4ai0Xwg Connect with Dr. Judith Joseph: Get Dr. Judith Joseph’s book, “High Functioning“ here: https://bit.ly/4kn8Bct  Listen to "The Vault with Dr. Judith" on all your favorite platforms! YouTube: https://bit.ly/4lhTsd5  Spotify: https://bit.ly/4lqfURz  Apple Podcasts: https://bit.ly/3ZFoUd6    Connect with Dr. Judith Joseph: Website: https://bit.ly/4kTr411  YouTube: https://bit.ly/4l5AC9e  Instagram: https://bit.ly/4kXdiux  TikTok: https://bit.ly/44tPvwg Facebook: ⁠https://bit.ly/3G8QDMC LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/4egyTLH  Thank you to our partners: H2TABS - USE CODE “ULTIMATE10” FOR 10% OFF: https://bit.ly/4hMNdgg BODYHEALTH - USE CODE “ULTIMATE20” FOR 20% OFF: http://bit.ly/4e5IjsV BAJA GOLD - USE CODE "ULTIMATE10" FOR 10% OFF: https://bit.ly/3WSBqUa EIGHT SLEEP - SAVE $350 ON THE POD 4 ULTRA WITH CODE “GARY”: https://bit.ly/3WkLd6E COLD LIFE - THE ULTIMATE HUMAN PLUNGE: https://bit.ly/4eULUKp WHOOP - GET 1 FREE MONTH WHEN YOU JOIN!: https://bit.ly/3VQ0nzW MASA CHIPS - GET 20% OFF YOUR FIRST ORDER: https://bit.ly/40LVY4y VANDY - USE CODE “ULTIMATE20” FOR 20% OFF: https://bit.ly/49Qr7WE AION - USE CODE “ULTIMATE10” FOR 10% OFF: https://bit.ly/4h6KHAD HAPBEE - FEEL BETTER & PERFORM AT YOUR BEST: https://bit.ly/4a6glfo CARAWAY - USE CODE “ULTIMATE” FOR 10% OFF: https://bit.ly/3Q1VmkC HEALF - GET 10% OFF YOUR ORDER: https://bit.ly/41HJg6S BIOPTIMIZERS - USE CODE “ULTIMATE” FOR 10% OFF: https://bit.ly/4inFfd7 RHO NUTRITION - USE CODE “ULTIMATE15” FOR 15% OFF: https://bit.ly/44fFza0 GENETIC TEST: ⁠https://bit.ly/3Yg1Uk9 Watch  the “Ultimate Human Podcast” every Tuesday & Thursday at 9AM EST: YouTube: https://bit.ly/3RPQYX8 Podcasts: https://bit.ly/3RQftU0 Connect with Gary Brecka: Instagram: https://bit.ly/3RPpnFs TikTok: https://bit.ly/4coJ8fo X.com: https://bit.ly/3Opc8tf Facebook: https://bit.ly/464VA1H LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/4hH7Ri2 Website: https://bit.ly/4eLDbdU Merch: https://bit.ly/4aBpOM1 Newsletter: https://bit.ly/47ejrws Ask Gary: https://bit.ly/3PEAJuG Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 02:20 Dr. Judith Joseph’s Research on Anhedonia and Joy 08:21 Understanding the Science of Happiness 15:01 Testing for Mental Health 20:37 High-Functioning Depression Definition 22:54 Identifying and Processing Trauma 30:28 The Five V’s 45:17 Creating Social Connections 58:57 Shifting the Mindset on Self-Care 1:02:00 Planning Joy 1:09:50 Impact of Physical Movement on Mental Health 1:13:46 Final Question: What does it mean to you to be an “Ultimate Human?” The Ultimate Human with Gary Brecka Podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is formed. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast is at the user’s own risk. The Content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical condition they may have and should seek the assistance of their health care professionals for any such conditions. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As human beings, we are built with the DNA for joy, but many of us have forgotten how to access it. And we confuse happiness with joy. I think there's a pandemic of people just accepting OK. They're walking around at a five out of 10. They've chalked it up to aging or a consequence of their environment. Whatever way they have to justify that, they're just kind of just OK. We have something called anhedonia,

and it literally means a lack of joy and pleasure in things that once lit you up. That's a very dangerous place to be because we have a tendency to delay our gratification and say, well, I'm going to be happy as soon as. I will be happy when I pay off my loans, I find the perfect partner, or when I get that big job. The science shows us even when we get those things, we're still not happy. Happiness is the idea. Joy, on the other hand, is the experience. The motto of my lab is understand

the science of your happiness. People like yourself talk about the impact of nutrition and nutrients on our mood and our emotional state. You're missing out on other points of joy by neglecting your nutrition. And then when you're stressed, you make poor choices. And one of those poor choices is what you put into your body.

How do people start to shift the mindset of, I want to begin to slowly put myself first? If you don't acknowledge what you're feeling, you are going to... Hey guys, welcome back to the ultimate human podcast. I'm your host, human biologist, Gary Brekka, where we go down the road of everything, anti-aging, biohacking, longevity, and everything in between. Today's guest is a really, really special guest. You're going to get a lot out of this podcast. It's a category that we don't talk about a lot

on The Ultimate Human, but it deserves a lot more attention. And it's all about mental health, mental health and resilience and some of the hidden dangers of just being okay. So I want you to welcome to the podcast, Dr. Judith Joseph. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Yeah, me too. there's a couple of themes that are common to everybody that comes with my podcast. And it's all, we always meet in the kitchen and then we start running the podcast there before we come in here. So, and you and I did the same thing. I'm like, we should go in the other room and start this podcast.

But it was a fascinating discussion and you've had an amazing journey and I feel like you're in such an incredibly needed niche market of mental health. I wonder if you might just, for my audience that doesn't know who you are, tell us a little bit about yourself and tell me about the book and your research in high functioning depression. Well, you know, probably the people listening, your audience right now, they were just like me,

pathologically productive, wearing a mask. Pathologically productive, I like that. It doesn't sound like a bad thing, right? It doesn't, right? It sounds great. We get rewarded for being productive. But behind that mask of pathological productivity, there's emptiness, there's a struggle.

When we sit still, we feel restless. When we're not working, we feel empty. And we have something called anhedonia. I heard you use that term three times today in the kitchen, and I was like, I consider myself pretty up to speed on these medical terms, and I've never heard that. Anhedonia. Yes, it's a very old medical term that honestly,

I went to a recent therapy conference and I asked a bunch of therapists, what is anedonia? Many of them had never even heard of it, but it's a term that's all throughout the literature in research and it literally means a lack of joy and pleasure in things that once lit you up. So, I mean, it really means meh or bleh. Meh or bleh.

No, we talked about this. I said, I think there's a pandemic of people just accepting okay, right? Accepting mediocrity. I don't mean mediocrity in their socioeconomic life. I mean, mediocrity in their state of their mood, their emotional state, they're walking around at a five out of 10 and for whatever reason,

they've chalked it up to aging or a consequence of their environment or a consequence of, uh, you know, their job or their career, their spouse or the kids or lack of sleep or what have you. And I, I think that's a very dangerous place to be because, you know, if you were clinically or severely depressed, let's say, you know, generally it will cause you to seek some help. If you were really tormented by something, you generally will reach out. When you're just, eh, just okay, you know, you're on the vacation of a lifetime with people you love the most and a place you've always wanted to go and you're just kind of, you can't get out of first gear, you can't feel your environment,

can't connect with it and you just don't feel that joy. Is that what this anhedonia is? It is, you know, and the way that you're describing it, I hear this a lot, people say to me, well, that's just being a mom or that's just being a dad and a provider or that's just being a human, right well, that's just being a mom, or that's just being a dad and a provider, or that's just being a human, right? Or that's just being 50 or 60 or 70 or 40. It's whatever way they have to justify the fact

that they're just kind of just okay. And I feel like God put us on this earth to thrive. We're supposed to have it all. I want passion, elation, I want joy, arousal, libido. I want all those upper tier emotions on the regular. And I think we have a tendency to delay our gratification and say, well, I'm going to be happy as soon as, or when I get this job, or when I get the next relationship or whatever it is, I'm sort of delaying

and justifying the reason I feel that way now. And we had a very interesting conversation I thought was very poignant because now that you brought my attention to it, you were exactly spot on. You know, I just got done a heavy travel in the Middle East. And you asked me, because I went to Egypt and Bahrain and some of these other countries, especially Egypt.

And you said, did you see poverty? And I said, yeah, I saw extreme poverty. And you said, did you notice that there were, there was also a lot of joy. And you know, now that you mention it, there was like barefoot dirty kids playing in the street that seemed really, really happy and didn't seem to even realize the environment that they were in. They were just happy with whatever was going on.

Yeah, that's because joy is our birthright. As human beings, we are built with the DNA for joy. But many of us have forgotten how to access it. And we confuse happiness for joy. But many of us have forgotten how to access it. And we confuse happiness with joy. We say, like we were talking about earlier, I will be happy when I pay off my loans, or I'll be happy when I find the perfect partner, or when I get that big job.

But the science shows us that even when we get those things, we're still not happy. We still keep pushing the goalpost further. Joy on the other hand is not an idea. Happiness is the idea. Joy is the experience. It is the, when you're hungry and you eat your food, like that delicious food in your kitchen right now.

Which we're gonna have as soon as this podcast is over. We're gonna really dive into that. She was like, I don't wanna eat, it's gonna make me sleepy. I'm like, my food won't make you sleepy. So when we're eating our food, we're savoring it. We're like, mm, you know, when we're tired and we take a rest and we wake up refreshed, that's a point of joy. When we're lonely and we reach out to a loved one

and we feel seen and just we feel nurtured and accepted, that's a point of joy. So there are these human experiences that in my lab, we actually add up those points and we're like, oh, that's how we can tell that you're becoming happier. We rarely say happy in our research, but when patients come into the private practice, they're like, Dr. Judith, I just want to be happy.

And I have to reframe it. We're gonna leave happy. We're not gonna use that term. We're gonna access points of joy daily. And that's important because some people will never be happy. They'll never reach that goalpost. But we all have the DNA to access joy.

But we're leaving our points on the table every day. When you say we have the DNA to access joy, I mean, this is really something for somebody that's listening to this, that's like, it's easy for you to say, or you're not in my life, you don't know what I have going on. And they've accepted that mediocrity is adedonia.

Is that the right word? Yes. Adedonia. And the fact that you're even identifying it as a thing, I think is very important because I think so many people just have the potential to access joy in their life that maybe they don't know how to do it, which hopefully we're going to talk about some ways that they can. But it's, I see it at all levels, you know, and I have been blessed enough to know some some very prominent people, socioeconomically or politically or career-wise, but you see it in that sector as well.

So we're not accessing joy because of our socioeconomic status, we're not accessing joy because of who we're married to or where we live. That seems to not be a component of having joy in your life. So I would love to talk more about your research to not be a component of having joy in your life. So I would love to talk more about your research and for people that are listening, first of all, how do they identify it? And then secondly, what can they do about it?

Are there exercises they can do to reframe the way that they're thinking or even the way that they're experiencing the world? Because I do find a lot of people that go and seek like self-help motivational seminars, they're reading the right books, they're going to the right events, they're trying to surround themselves in the right circles

and even they start things like trying to practice gratitude in the morning or prayer or meditation, doesn't seem to pull them out of that zone that they're in. And I think in some ways makes it worse because they're like, sheesh man, I went to the Tony Robbins event, I was really excited when I got there, I got home, I read the book, I did the workbook, you know, every morning I'm thanking God and I know that I'm capable of feeling more. Yeah, I hear this all the time. And the motto of my lab is understand

the science of your happiness. There will only ever be one you, ever. Like think about that in the history of the universe and in the future. The chances of us existing are just, it's a miracle. Oh, it is. So you're here for a reason. And when you're using these skills, these tools,

these books, without understanding the science of your happiness, then you're gonna be lost. You're gonna be deflated when it doesn't work. And when I speak to large rooms of people, I will literally ask them to use this tool for my book called the biopsychosocial. Biopsychosocial. And it sounds fancy, but.

By the way, we're gonna link the book in the show notes below. Yeah, yeah. It's a powerful tool, but it is not democratized. When we're medical students, we learn about it, we write about it, about our patients. And I thought, why are we keeping this to ourselves? Everyone should have this. So I liken it to a fingerprint. We all have a fingerprint. But every fingerprint is unique. Everyone has a biopsychosocial, but they're all unique.

So when you're not thinking about the science of your happiness, then how are you going to be happy here? Right. How can you add back your points of joy when you're not even sure where you're losing your joy? Yeah, what's amazing is you're kind of saying happiness is a process, because I think a lot of people say it's a choice, and I think that people that are not happy would choose to be happy,

but it's not like I can just say, okay, I chose happiness today and all of a sudden I'm happy Or I'm joyful, but so what is this? Process that people can go through to start unlocking some of these Joyous events in their life and sort of progress towards that state in the now. Hi guys Gary here I want to take a few minutes of your time to invite you to my ultimate human VIP community. This is a private community with front row seats to my most advanced health protocols, exclusive monthly q&a calls, a private podcast where you can ask my guests and

me your most pressing questions and my own personal wellness blueprints, and everything you need to optimize your health. You'll connect with like minded folks in this community, you'll get firsthand access to cutting edge insights and enjoy special discounts on products that I trust the most. And here's the best part. Membership is just 97 bucks a month, a fraction of the cost my private clients pay for the same deep dive guidance. If you're ready to supercharge

your wellness and skip the guesswork, I'd love for you to join us head to the ultimate human.com forward slash VIP. That's the ultimate human.com forward slash VIP right now to become one of my ultimate human VIPs. This is your fast pass to better health. So don't miss it. Now let's get back to the ultimate human podcast. Well, let's look at the biopsychosocial. I use myself as an example. Biologically, what am I at risk for?

So I have a low thyroid. And for those who have a low thyroid as well. I can fix that. Yeah. Talk about that after the podcast. Pre-consultation later. But if you have these hormonal issues, and right now I'm in perimenopause,

so that's another risk factor for being, you know, losing points of joy. But your medical issues are going to be different than mine. So understand biologically what puts you at risk for losing your points of joy. And then know your family history too, because that's important. And then psychologically, what is in your past? So for my past traumas, I came from Trinidad to this country with very little. So I have something called scarcity trauma. And I make a ton of videos about this.

Really? It's when you come from very little and you're constantly in fight or flight because you worry that you're going to run out. Even though logically you're like, you know you have money in the bank, you can't slow down because you're constantly afraid that you're gonna run out for others There could be a personal trauma that has to do with something violent But understand how that impacts your points of joy and for some of us psychologically we have attachment styles That are unhealthy and so we're partnering with people that are unhealthy and not positive for us

So we're losing points and then socially that's what's happening around you. Where are you living? How much you know alcohol are you consuming? What are the types of foods you're eating? Are they processed? You know are they causing inflammation? What are the relationships in your life? Because socially we know from longevity science that that's a top predictor of your health outcomes. No doubt. So you you know, and what are the habits? Are you smoking? When you understand the biopsychosocial, you know where you're losing points,

you know where to add the points back. So I always ask people to start there because like a fingerprint, there's only one biopsychosocial that's made for you so understand it. Do yourself that favor. So in terms of like, when you talk about the biology, like, you know, you have low thyroid, are you suggesting people actually go get some data on their bodies?

Like go get some blood work done. Go get some testing done and find out first of all, if everything's in balance. I mean, if you're a woman and you're estrogen dominant or you're a male and you have virtually no testosterone or, you know, your cycle is off if you're a female, menstruating female, there's a very difficult time, I would think, balancing your mental health. Because I find it really funny that modern medicine has a tendency to think of this,

completely separate from this. Forget the little connection here. And that we can be sick here and be fine here, or we can be sick here and be fine here. And I don't think that that's true. It's not true. And hormones travel throughout the body. And even if you do a blood test for, let's say,

hormone for a perimenopause or menopause, even that point in time may not reflect what's happening. So you wanna work with someone who understands that you can't just take one test. you may have to look at all these clinical symptoms and then put it all together. But acknowledge that, you know, those hormones don't just stay in that pelvic area, they travel in the bloodstream, they impact every cell in your body. So that's why many of us, again, can't access joy. We don't even understand what's getting in the way of our joy. So this

model is extremely powerful. In your book, do you talk about what labs they should pull? I mean, oh, you do, okay, great. So for a woman, because I know you've done a lot in women's empowerment, you came from a women's empowerment event today, right? Yes, I did. She had a picture of her and Tyler Perry with her book.

And so you're on the move like I am, I love it. And so she was at a women's empowerment event today and we talk about it a lot on my podcast that 82% of all autoimmune disease affects women. And it actually has nothing to do with sex. It's not because it's like certain diseases will be in certain populations because of their hair, sickle cell anemia

and African-Americans, for example, that's a real disposition based on your heritage, but autoimmune because you're female is not because you're female. And it's, you know, a lot of functional medicine doctors postulate that it's because women have a tendency to, they call it caregiver syndrome, you know, to put the needs of others before the needs of themselves

and almost feel guilty about caring for themselves. So if someone's listening to this right now, they wanna go on this journey, and obviously I recommend they get your book, and we'll link it in the show notes, but they go and they just get a basic panel. What kind of blood work are you suggesting they look at? Well, because I'm a psychiatrist,

I'm always thinking, what are the areas we can address first? Rather than piling on a medication, let's understand where you're deficient. And in my research with high functioning depression, people are busy. They're so busy, they don't meet their basic needs. So what are they doing? They're eating a lot of processed foods, greasy foods,

foods without nutrients. Convenient, it's on the fly. And there's a correlation between trauma and HFD. So they feel like there's a core belief of being unworthy. So on a surface level, they're like, they're not thinking, oh, I'm unworthy, so I'm going to eat this bag of chips. But on a deeper level, they don't love themselves're not thinking, oh, I'm unworthy, so I'm going to eat this bag of chips. But on a deeper level, they don't love themselves

the way they should. So they're eating foods because, look, I just need to feel myself to take care of others. Many of them lack vitamins. So you have people coming in tired, sluggish. In my wheelhouse, love it. Yes, they're not meeting their basic needs. So I do full vitamin panels.

And I often see low vitamin D, low B, people are not getting good sleep. They're just not getting the nutrition to support their brain. And then they wonder why they have anhedonia. Well, anhedonia isn't just one avenue. There are many avenues to getting joy in our brains and nutrition is a really important one of those.

So you start with this blood panel. I imagine you're looking at hormones, vitamin D3, you're looking at nutrient deficiencies, which I am a huge fan. I'm so glad that you said that because I don't profess to be a mental health expert by any means, but I can tell you in the hundreds of thousands of clients

that have come through our clinic system, very often you can pull somebody out of their state of mediocrity, and mediocrity meaning their mental and emotional mediocrity, just by putting the right raw materials into the body. I mean, at the end of the day, we make our own neurotransmitters, we manufacture them in the body,

and the neurotransmitters are creating mood and they're creating emotion. And so if your factory that's manufacturing those raw materials, neurotransmitters, is broken, or it doesn't have the nutrients it needs to do its job, now all of a sudden you find yourself going down the mental health bandwagon, you know, down the mental health road, and it's really nothing wrong with you. You're just nutrient deficient. I mean, not only is your factory broken,

it's on fire because it's inflamed. Many of the foods that we're eating and the chemicals we're eating, it's just causing so much inflammation in our bodies. And it's hard for our brains to be happy when they're inflamed. And not to say that there's anything wrong with medication, but we're missing points, right?

Two things can be true. You may need the support of a medication, but you're missing out on other points of joy by neglecting your nutrition, your basic needs. Yeah, you know, I think high functioning depression is a new term for a lot of people. I find it very descriptive because there are a lot of people that are very high functioning, meaning they're very intelligent, they're very successful

in their careers, and they're good people. They're good husbands or wives, they're good fathers or mothers. So myopically looking at them from the outside in, there's nothing wrong, you know, and at them from the outside in, there's nothing wrong. You know, and yet they're in this state of adedonia. So can you just describe to us what is high functioning depression? Well, all of the people you described just now, they likely feel more comfortable saying, I'm burnt out, right?

Burnout is so much more accepted. If someone says they're burnt out, you're like, oh. It's almost like a cool thing, because it means that you're busting your ass and building your business, and we get that. Test it out at home. When you go in a room and you say, I'm burnt out, you'll get a very different response than if you walked in a room and you said, I'm depressed.

People can be like, well, about that, I'll talk to you later. Yeah, exactly. But when you're like, I'm burned out, they're like, yeah, me too. Right? Misery loves company, everybody's burned out. When you say you're out, they're like, yeah, me too. Right? Yeah. Misery loves company. Everybody's burned out. You say you're depressed, they're like, wow.

Okay. Well, but the reason is because burnout is so accepted. And when you think about burnout, it is a relatively new term. It wasn't in our Bible of psychiatry, the DSM-5, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, until very recently. But no one would say that before it was put into that Bible psychiatry that it didn't exist. We all knew it existed. The difference is that burnout is an occupational hazard. So the job is causing the symptoms.

The job is causing you to be uninspired, have irritability, low energy. Because it doesn't bring you any joy. And it's also like causing a lot of stress, right? It's hard to be joyful when you're stressed. Yeah. But when you remove people from the job, they technically should get better because the pressure system is gone. Right.

The difference is that when people have high functioning depression, you can remove them from their job. On the weekends, they're still gonna be busy. On the weekends, they're still taking on other people's problems. They're doing a gazillion things. They cannot sit still. When they sit still they feel empty. When they're not busy they feel restless. They have to keep moving. And what I found in the research study that I published, the

first ever peer-reviewed study in high function depression, I found that there was a correlation between HFD and unresolved trauma. So when you think of trauma, trauma causes this fight or flight, right? You can't sit still. Usually when you see trauma, let's say in combat veterans or people in the military, it looks like they're lashing out, they have nightmares,

they have hypervigilance, they have avoiding people or situations that trigger them. People with HFD, their form of avoiding their problems and processing their trauma is staying busy. So they don't wanna base what's actually bothering them. So what do they do? They distract themselves with someone else's problems. They can't sit still on the weekends.

They're constantly taking on more. And deep down, they know they need to slow down, but they just can't because they're in fight or flight and they don't even realize it. Right. You know, I think there's, first of all, there's a whole class of people like that. And I like the way that you're describing trauma because I think so often, you know,

somebody that's listening to this is like, well, I know that I wasn't abused. You know, my parents weren't alcoholics. I didn't go through a nasty divorce. So I don't actually have any trauma. But you're talking, like when you referred to yours, it wasn't anything particularly horrible that happened to you.

It's the vantage point that you came in, you know, as Trinidadian, you know, to come to this country with relatively nothing and have this scarcity, you know, fear is what's manifesting itself in your adulthood. So I think very often when we talk about trauma and people are thinking about those very identifiable abuses, you know, sexual abuse,

drug or alcohol abuse, violence, you know, things like that. And it may not be that poignant, right? It might be something as simple as your upbringing created a vantage point for you to perceive the rest of the world. And how do you go back and find that? I mean, how do you identify it like you identified yours? Well, many times, because trauma,

the nature of a trauma response is to push down the memory so you don't remember it. So a lot of my clients will say, well, I don't remember what it was. And I tell them that this is a natural way for your body to protect you. If you don't remember it, it can't hurt you, right?

Right. But if you think about trauma as if you keep pushing it down, you don't acknowledge it, it'll pop up just like a balloon. If you try to push it on the water, it pops up eventually. It'll pop up in other areas of your life. It may pop up as a physical breakdown. That's why we have a lot of patients with HFD

go into the ER and they think they're having a heart attack. They may actually be having a heart attack. Or it may cause you to have an unhealthy relationship with substances, a lot of drinking, maybe excessive drug use, or habits that are unhealthy, like being online too much, doom scrolling, having, you know. Doom scrolling.

Doom scrolling is actually being talked about as a trauma response. Like you are being, you're exposing your brain to the terrible news, but you can't stop because your mind is saying, well, this is gonna to be the one time I can control the outcome. And it's totally logical. We are trying to control this negative outcome by exposing yourself to it. So it's counterintuitive.

Excessive shopping, you know, all of these busying behaviors to do anything but sit still and process that trauma. And you're right, it doesn't have to be a big T trauma. It could be a little T like going through a painful divorce, facing bankruptcy as an entrepreneur, being excluded because of who you are. All of those things impact us and they emotionally shape the way that we see ourselves

and the way that we interact in the world. So when you think about it that way, then many of us have unprocessed trauma. We're not even recognizing it. That's why I put these very concrete tools in the world. So when you think about it that way, then many of us have unprocessed trauma. We're not even recognizing it. That's why I put these very concrete tools in the book and expanded my trauma inventory so people can go through. You're talking about what, the five Vs? No, I actually include quizzes and questionnaires in there

because I have a research lab. And psychiatry is not like other fields of medicine. You can't like take a blood test and say, you have this and you have that. But what we do is we use these questionnaires and we measure points to see if you're getting better or worse. So one of the questionnaires in my book is about trauma. And we will sit with patients and we'll fill out the questionnaire.

And they're like, that's a trauma? Well, that happened. I never realized. And I said, well, that was a trauma response. You never acknowledged it because you were trying to push it down. And then they open up and they're realizing, oh, that's why I do this. Again, we are all unique. We all have a unique biopsychosocial.

And the trauma goes into the psychology part of the biopsychosocial, but many of us don't even realize it's there. We haven't unearthed it. Well, so once you find it, right? Now the question is, what do you do? It's interesting, I did a podcast yesterday with Dean Graziosi and he was talking about

this mentor of his that sat him down and he was building a business and he asked his mentor to come on and assist him in growing his business. And instead of just giving him the tools like you need to do this, buy this ad, spend money here, hire this person, fire that person, he put him through a series of seven questions

trying to get his why. Like what is the why that's driving you? And he said, for some reason, it has to be seven questions. Like you don't find out until the seventh one, but like why did you wanna start the business? Well, because of X, Y, and Z. And what drove you to choose this field? And he got down to the seventh question

and he realized that he was starting the business because he wanted to be in control. And the control had come from having a lack of control as a child. And he grew up not very poor in trailer park. And he saw how his mother was controlled by money and her job. And not, she wasn't a slave to money,

but she had to work to keep the family afloat. So she had to miss soccer games and she had to miss his events because she had to miss, you know, his events because she had to work. And so the money was really controlling her and he made this conscious decision that he was never gonna let money control him, dictate the choices for him. And that became a way of recognizing,

I guess that's his trauma, and turning it into something that he used as a springboard instead of as an excuse. If you want protein to build lean muscle, but without the caloric impact or need to cut, you need perfect amino. It's pure essential amino acids, the building blocks of proteins in a precise form

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Yeah, and he probably learned from his mother that you have to focus on these things and delay happiness, right? Always delaying happiness. Yeah, you learn these patterns from your caregivers. But if you don't sit still enough to recognize it and to process it, you will continue down that rabbit hole. And it's interesting that you said seven questions. Yeah. process it, you will continue down that rabbit hole. And it's interesting that you said seven questions. Yeah, I've traveled to over 30 countries studying mental health and health care. And the thing about numbers is that there are certain numbers that you see come up again, no matter where in the country. Seven is one of those. Really? All right. Big shout out. Seven, five, three, I see a lot, 10. And I chose the five Vs, which is my methodology, because we all have five fingers,

most of us have five fingers, right? Right. And I always ask my clients to look at their hands if they're feeling stuck and just tell yourself, you are built with the DNA for joy. Access one of the five Vs and you're literally getting a point for two. And what are the Vs?

What does the V stand for? The first V is validation. And it sounds super basic, but if you don't acknowledge what you're feeling, you are going to be stressed, you're going to be confused. You may do things that you don't even realize you're doing. And there's a term in psychology called affect labeling. And the theory is that if you can identify your feeling, that in itself is a therapeutic intervention. The uncertainty of not knowing how you feel

causes so much stress. And I use this analogy of if you were in a dark room and you heard a loud crash, you couldn't see what it was. Many of us would just start freaking out. You turn the light on and you see, oh, it was like a bookshelf that fell. Then you're like, oh, well, I know what it is. That's how it is about our feelings.

We don't acknowledge how we feel. We are very uncertain and we're very stressed. So start to acknowledge and accept your emotions. And that's the first V. Very difficult for people who are used to pushing down. And what does accepting your emotion be like? So when I'm feeling stressed or anxious or tired or hurt, guilty or what have you,

meaning just to be present and say, okay, I'm feeling this way, and then try to identify what's causing that? That's one way. Another way I'll use myself as an example is I'll sit in sessions with patients back to back, sometimes in a Zoom, sometimes in person. And then I'm going to be like, wait a second, I don't think I've even peed all day.

Exactly. Right. We teach kids how to validate their basic bodily feelings all the time. Why? Cause you don't want a kid peeing all over your rug, right? Right. Like Johnny, you got to go. You got to get out of here, recognize that pain and the discomfort.

And guess what? It's really hard to be joyful when your pelvis is in pain, right gotta go. You gotta get out of here. Recognize that pain and the discomfort. And guess what? It's really hard to be joyful when your pelvis is in pain. Right? Pain takes away joy. So just start with the basics. You know, give yourself those basic needs. Say I gotta get up and use the bathroom. Or if you wanna do the psychological validation,

I'm feeling extremely exhausted today. You know, like saying that to yourself, self validating. But you get validation in other ways, like through the blood tests. Sometimes I'll do a blood test and I'll show a patient that like, you are extremely vitamin deficient. And they'll be like, I thought it was just me. I thought it was my fault I was depressed, you know?

Or I'll do a CAHPS-5, which is the trauma score, the gold standard that's used in combat veterans. I'll use that on a patient who had, let's say, something terrible that happened. And I'll say, look at this CAPS V score. Look how high your trauma is. And they're like, no wonder I'm stuck in life. You know? There are different ways to get that validation. It sort of lets them off the hook too. That, okay, maybe there's nothing wrong with me.

I just have to solve this issue. Or it wasn't my fault, right? Something happened to me, I didn't cause it to happen. In some cases, you were the blame. But in many cases, you're not. And so having that type of validation allows you to feel worthy enough to start to change. Many of us on a deeper surface level, we don't even feel worthy enough for change.

Right. So let's move on to the next V. The next V is venting, right? Venting, oh boy. My wife's good at that one. So you know that balloon, if you keep pushing it under the water, you don't express that emotion,

it'll pop up. Yeah, and then you seem like the crazy person, you're like, whoa, Sally really lost her shit. But it's usually because she didn't for so long, right? And then just popped like a cork. I think that's true with a lot of us. So are you saying venting is a good thing, letting your emotions out?

It is, and you have to do it with intention. Venting is not this, healthy venting is not the same as trauma dumping. Some of us will just tell our emotions to everyone when I've been thinking about who we're talking to. So you want to ask for emotional consent. You want to say, is this a good time? Can you listen to me right now? And you want to think about who you're talking to. You know, if you're an entrepreneur and you're constantly trauma dumping onto your employees, they're not going to say anything because you're paying them. The power dynamic

is there. So you want to think about that. Are you trauma dumping on your kids? Because they're not going to say anything. They want to attach to you. They don't want to be rejected. So you want to be very careful and intentional about who you're talking to. And venting doesn't have to be verbal. I have a lot of neurodivergent clients.

Many of them don't want to talk. So we do a lot of journaling. Or if they're artists, they'll sing or dance or express an art or even praying. And what is venting mean? I mean, I know what the term means venting, but to me, venting means like popping your cork.

It's literally in the physics. It literally means letting off steam, letting air escape. In the psychological terms, it's how to express these negative emotions. But I say you can invent even positive things. I was telling you that I have a safe in my lab because we're in the diamond districts. We have a walk in. Your door is like a giant vault. You know, that's super cool.

And sometimes I have people come by the vault and I say, I'd like for you to go into this vault and I want you to say something to yourself that you've never said out loud to anyone. You may have not even acknowledged it. I tell you, sometimes people come out in tears and they're like, and I said, don't tell me what you said. That's for you. But do you see how powerful it is just to say it out loud to yourself that this happened?

This happened to you. You've never said it before. It is so powerful, but many of us don't. We can go on a lifetime without saying something to ourselves. Wow. So venting is important. And when you say venting, is this, when someone makes you feel a certain way,

is venting to let them know how they just made you feel? That's one form of venting, that's verbal venting. It could be to express an emotion and let's say someone wronged you. You may want to self vent first, write it out, because if you go in there with that full balloon. Yeah, it usually goes the other way, yeah. And then you're gonna feel guilty,

then you're gonna feel ashamed, and then you're gonna feel low self-worth. So you're right back into that pattern. So I give tools for how to self-vent before you go and confront that person. So you validate, you vent, you become comfortable with venting. And then what is our third V?

Third V is values. And when we think of values, for me, when I was very young, my way out of scarcity was education. But I actually loved learning. I could sit and read for days. But as life got busy and stressful, I forgot about that curiosity. I forgot that I actually loved knowledge.

And it was more about, okay, I have to get the good A's, the straight A's, get into the right school. Learning became very boring and actually a task. And I had a lot of anhedonia when I was in graduate training. So I think we have to tap back into what it is that gives us purpose and meaning. So think priceless versus price tags.

Oh, wow. And that's a really easy way to think about what your values are. You know, some of us value faith, family, but others, we value superiority and being in positions of power, like the client you mentioned. And at the end of the day, we're not going to be on our deathbed saying, I wish I had one more person to tell what to do. Yeah, exactly. We're going to be like, I wish I had like five minutes to maybe revisit that beautiful

country that I took for granted or be with that person that was the love of my life. You know, like these are the things that give us meaning and purpose. Yeah. You know, I identify, you know, a lot with that because I think very often we aren't even, we're moving so fast and I think that we've lost connection with other human beings, we've lost connection with nature, we feel connected or we're trying to create connection with our phones and we knew in the mortality space,

I used to be a part of a mortality research team, we knew that if you wanted to cut a human being's life expectancy in half at any age, you put them in isolation. And that's a very obvious thing when you completely isolate somebody. But I feel like a lot of people are isolated in plain sight because they've lost that connection.

Yes. You know, when you look at Blue Zone research, and one of the things that was contiguous with all the people living the longest in the world was they had a sense of community, sense of purpose, sense of connection. You know, maybe a 98-year-old grandmother only had the role of picking vegetables, you know, that afternoon for that evening's dinner for her family, but that was her role. And she made a contribution.

She felt like that was a purpose. And most of these areas around the world had strong social, familial connections, social connections. And so they felt like they had a community and they had a purpose. And I think now science is actually starting to validate the fact that, you know, our emotions and our moods and the way that we view ourselves has a real impact

on our physiology. And there's demonstrative impacts on our cellular function, our cells respond to frequency. So, you know, in this third V, how do people go about maybe identifying their purpose or creating this sense of connection? Well, the values, you know, they get lost in history. You forget who you are. And there are ways to find yourself back to that place. And with my patients, one of the tools in the book that I use is this narrative therapy,

where we go back to a time in life where they felt what I say is full and fed. And it sounds very guttural, it sounds very primitive, but think about feeling spiritually full and fed. And I'll use the patient as an example. You know, they remembered that when they were younger, they used to feel full and fed when they were with their family camping. And after the parents got a divorce, they stopped camping. And this was someone we had worked with, you know, for a long time, they couldn't find what their values were.

Very successful, big city, big deal, big, you know, big shot. But when we realized that they used to spend a lot of time in nature because they had that cohesive family unit, then we started to gradually introduce them back to nature. It wasn't like they went straight into, oh, I love it again. They were feeling so much anhedonia. We did it in little steps. So we started by surrounding this person with plants. You know, that's an easy way to access nature. We're looking at beautiful scenes, and then we challenge them to go to the park,

maybe just for like 10 minutes a week. And they built up to that, and slowly they started taking the hikes again. And then they realized, wow, when I was younger, I had this like sense of awe in nature. I just felt as if I was here for a reason. Seeing these beautiful, the trees and the water and the sky, it just made me so grateful to be here.

And they started to spark up again, you know? But for others, it's different. For myself, you know, as a busy mom and someone who used to chase the accolades, you know, you should see my office. I have so many degrees, I can't even hang them all. That's how many, like. I used to chase that. And I just remember in 2020 I got awarded

to be on this prestigious board of these Ivy League doctors. And I just remember just not even enjoying the accolade. I was just like, okay, great, onto the next. And I'm a totally different person now. But back then I was leaving so many points of joy on the table. I was not seeing my daughter as much as I should have. No one knew that I was going through a divorce

because on the outside it looked so great. And now I'm like a different person. I know now why I was always on the go. I was afraid of scarcity. I was afraid of running out. And I was missing out on the basic joys in life. Now try to book me up for something and I'm like, well, am I going to miss my time with my daughter?

It's not happening. Now I know that like that human connection, when I snuggle against her cheeks, because she's eight and she still has full cheeks. Oh, it's the best. It's so, I mean, why would I miss out on that oxytocin? Yeah. For a conference.

There are real benefits to that too. Yes. Really, I heard Mark Hyman talking about the other day, just snuggling with a spouse. Or a dog. Or a pet. Or a dog or a kid. And like dogs have like a hundred times the oxytocin that human beings have, which is why they're so loyal.

I mean, I grew up with black labs my whole life. I still have two of them. My son has them. But you get the same reception from this dog if you walk to the mailbox or if you leave for five days. Right? It's like you could leave for five minutes or five days and you get back and they're like,

oh my God, I'm so glad you're back. You know, I almost took my own life. I thought I would never see you again. Like I just went through the mailbox, you know. Well, look at your dog. Look at your dog response when you have anhedonia. Just do a little test. If you're lacking joy in life, look at how your dog reacts. Your dog will also reflect that.

They're very intuitive. They're very attached to us. But start working on your joy and you'll see it spread. Your dog will start eating the food happier, wagging that tail. And some of my clients, I'll ask them this, and they're like, you are so right. My dog is happier when I'm happier.

It's contagious. I had an argument with a buddy of mine the other day who was trying to tell me that dogs don't feel any emotion. And this is a whole left turn, but I was like, dude, first of all, you don't have a dog. So that's part of the problem. But they definitely feel emotion. And you can, like when I would come home,

I remember one time I came home, I'd labored eating a bag of Halloween candy and Hershey Kisses, and there were the ones wrapped in aluminum. And I walked in and I looked at Jack and he wouldn't even look at me and I was like, what did you do? And then I went around the corner and there was a bag of Hershey Kisses all kind of strung

out all over the floor. Well, they definitely feel emotion. They feel shame all the time, you know, when they they know what they're doing. Yeah. So how do we go about and we're on the third V, but how do we go about recreating these connections? I mean, one obviously, I would encourage people to take these these quizzes. But how do we go about creating more of a social connection and community with the people that are around us?

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flight. So I put a tool in my book called the 5-4-3-2-1 and it's a grounding method. We were talking about grounding earlier. To essentially remind you to just sit still and slow down. And I know it sounds so basic, but many of us are always on the go and we just don't even know what our values are. So what my clients, what I'll do is we'll practice

these grounding methods for let's say five minutes. I start small, not long. Five minutes sounds short, but it can be long for someone who's not used to. Oh dude, if you don't like to be alone with your own thoughts, five minutes is a long time. Without picking up your phone and distracting yourself. It's very difficult. You really need a lot of support. I do this on the road a lot with large audiences and we'll ground ourselves.

And then I use this very visible learning tool with rocks. And I'll hand out rocks to everyone or stones and I'll ask them to write down values on there and I give them a list because sometimes you have to be really concrete on the stone. And so when you're doing your grounding technique and you're holding on to this stone, I tell them take this stone with you because when you're feeling lost and empty you're going to ground yourself and you're going to remember what is important. For many people, their stone, their rock is their family. But again, we take them for granted. We know that they're going to be there.

Right. But we're missing out on these moments that we'll never have with them again. So that is a really important symbol to stay there. The narrative therapy, I think, is super important. And if you don't know what your values are and you're doing these skills, there are other tools in my book. I talk about if you could have dinner with one person on the planet, alive or dead, who would it be?

Many times people will list like a famous athlete like Muhammad Ali. And then I'll be like, okay, so tell me about why this person. And they'll start to talk and you realize it wasn't about the athleticism at all. It was about the confidence and the charisma and the inspiration. So I'm like, Oh, so you're someone who values that you value like inspiration. So what's something that you did in life that inspired you? And we work our way back and it turns out this person was actually very creative and they left it on the table because they got so busy.

So there are different tools to tap back into the things that give you meaning and purpose, right? Some of us are tinkerers. We were little kids who would tinker and break things apart, but we stopped doing that. We got so important. So for some of my clients, we go back to tinkering and we start small and we work our way back up.

That's so cool. I actually saw this thing on social media. It was an experiment where they actually took all these parents and they asked them that same question. They put them in front of the camera and they were like, hey, if you could have lunch or dinner with anyone in the world, live or dead, who would it be? And they were naming different people,

Elon Musk, Barack Obama, the Dalai Lama. They had all of these different choices, probably based on some of their values. And then they put the parents in a room, and then they brought the kids in, and they asked the kids the same question. And every single one of the kids said, my mom or my dad.

And all the parents started crying. And they were like, you know, you see the mom sitting there and this little nine year old sits down and they're like, if you could have dinner with anyone in the world, you know, you see the mom sitting there and this little nine-year-old sits down and they're like, if you could have dinner with anyone in the world, you know, alive or dead, what would it be? And they were like, does it have to be a famous person?

And they're like, no, my mom, you know, and mom was like, I said, Eli, I'm not gonna lie. I said, no. That's so perfect because it does symbolize how we lose sight of the things that really matter, right? Yeah, yeah, so true. So then moving on to the next V, what's the next V in the sequence?

Vitals, that's all you. That's your whole house. Yeah, yeah, that's me. We only get one body and brain. We have to take care of it. I tell my daughter that every day. How many bodies did God give you? Since she was two. She goes, one mommy. And I said, what do you gotta do? I gotta take care of it. I tell my daughter that every day. How many bodies did God give you? Since she was two.

She goes, one mommy. And I said, what do you gotta do? I gotta take care of it. You really have to treat your body as if it is the most precious thing. It literally is the most precious thing you will ever have. But we don't approach it that way. We're so busy with like,

how much money can I stack in my bank? How many things can I acquire? Our physical and mental health, that is our true wealth. You know, so I'll talk about the things that your audience is familiar with, sleep, nutrition. That's our human superpower. Yes, there is not one mental health condition that doesn't impact sleep.

Think about that. Yeah, that is so incredible. You know, I had a Harvard MD PhD that came on the podcast and he talked about treating some of the most drug resistant mental illnesses with diet. And the success he's had with keto diets and other diets in really pretty severe mental health issues. And I think, again, going back to the gut brain connection

and the connection between our gut microbiome and our emotional state and our mood and our energy, I think we seek these comfort foods and then the payoff is that we're under nutrition. And we make GLP-1 in our bodies and it responds to satiation. And so when we're not eating nutrient dense foods, we have a tendency to overeat,

and now your body morphic image changes in a way that you don't like. So now you feel guilty and you feel terrible and you eat more. And I think a lot of people have a very corrupt relationship with food. They do. And then when you're stressed, you make poor choices.

And one of those poor choices is what you put into your body, right? That whole field of nutritional psychiatry, it is game changing. The reason people don't access it is because it takes effort. And it takes a lot of support to change the way that you eat, to modify your food. So there is a term, nutritional psychiatry?

Oh wow, I'm glad to even hear that, because I rarely hear other than people like yourself talk about the impact of nutrition and nutrients on our mood and our emotional state. And, you know, and I think a lot of people think of it as abuse, like, well, I'm not drinking heavily or I don't smoke or I don't have any recreational drug habits, but the truth is you can be micro poisoning

your body, you know, slowly, and have some very similar consequences. Yeah, and leaving all these points on the table when you could be eating these brain foods that are, these are well studied. They are written up in peer reviewed journals where you could put people in a placebo group and in the treatment group, and the people who have a put people in a placebo group and in the treatment group.

And the people who have a history of anxiety and depression who are on the treatment group, they're eating the foods that are brain foods, they start to get better. I mean, you would think everyone would want to eat those foods. But again, it takes a lot of effort. Some of the foods aren't that tasty, like not everyone likes mussels, you know?

Watercress, it's not you know, come and see. I eat a lot of fermented vegetables and you know, it's amazing when I, I try to eat really good when I travel too, but whenever my gut gets disrupted, it's usually when I'm traveling, can't control what I eat as well as I can at home. But it's so true. You know, when I come home, the first thing I do,

I eat the food in my house. I make sure that like last night, I got 100% sleep score, but the previous day, I flew 15 and a half hours from Dubai. And it was a very rough flight, probably the roughest commercial flight I've ever been on. They kept the flight attendants in the jump seats most of the flight. And so I had planned this six or eight hours of sleep

on 15 hour flight, sleep at all. But one great night of sleep and a morning of really clean food and some sunlight, some breath work, just some basic stuff. And I feel amazing. Like I have no recollection of that stress from the travel. Well, sleep deprivation is actually one of the treatments Like I have no recollection of that stress from the travel. Well, sleep deprivation is actually one of the treatments for some severe mental health issues, right?

Because sleep is one of the hallmarks of mental health. And in some studies, when you actually deprive people of sleep and then you give them a good night's sleep, they wake up and they're actually feeling happier. So there's a real science to it. Yeah, I agree. I mean, and sleep deprivation is a form of torture.

I mean, we've been using sleep deprivation for centuries to torture people. And there's obviously a lot of evidence on that. I actually heard Barbara Neal talking about how, I forget what the requisite number of nights of sleep missed were, but if 50% reduction in your sleep score for five or six nights, the levels of serotonin and dopamine

and a lot of the pleasure neurotransmitters in our body are super depleted. You're actually not capable of being in a good mood. Yeah, and you get sick because your immune system breaks down. And then you get sick. And so what's the final one? The final V is vision. But when you think about vitals, those are the most, And so what's the final one? The final V is vision.

When you think about vitals, those are the most, when we go back to vitals, the fourth V. This is the blood where the blood work comes in, getting some data on your body. I actually added three non-traditional vitals in there that I want people to think about, your relationship with technology, because I truly believe there's gonna be a whole section in the DSM, the Bible of Psychiatry,

dedicated to mental health and digital technology. I couldn't agree with you more. We talked about relationship with people because that's the number one predictor of longevity. Toxic relationships. And then our work life for people with high functioning depression. We can't leave work.

Yeah. But the fifth is vision. Yeah. Like how do we plan joy in the future and celebrate our wins so that we keep moving forward instead of getting stuck in the past? Plan joy in the future, I like that. So how do you plan joy?

We have to. I'd like to do that. We have to plan it, because we're so busy. Yeah. When with my busy execs in my practice, when I opened their calendar, I asked them to open it up

and I look at these very colorful calendars full of to-dos for themselves, their kids, you know, their elderly parents. And I asked them to open it up, and I look at these very colorful calendars full of to-dos for themselves, their kids, their elderly parents, and I asked them, can you point where the joy is? And they laugh. Yeah. I don't have time for joy. Time for that nonsense.

Well, then it's not gonna happen. Yeah, yeah. If you don't plan it, it's not gonna happen. That's actually really, that's really unique. So when you completed all five of these Vs and you've identified your trauma, what's the process to getting on the road to healing? I mean, do you think that you need

a mental health professional or can anyone take this exercise and start to walk themselves out of this mood mediocrity adedonia. I love what you just said how you lost sleep because you were on this horrendous flight and then you made it up. You got it like a full 100% score the next day. That's literally what I'm talking about. It's like, okay, if I didn't get any points today of joy, then there's an opportunity

to get a point or two tomorrow, right? Because a point of joy, then there's an opportunity to get a point or two tomorrow. Right? Because a point of joy is rest. You know, a point of joy when we measure happiness is not feeling stressed. It's not feeling lonely. So there's always a chance to get a point. And you don't have to tap into the five, all five V's. I would say don't, you know, because science shows us that we need to do one or two things at a time. So figure out which one you're going to tap into today. Is it going to be connection? Is it going to be sleep?

Is it going to be validating yourself? Because when you know how you feel and you accept it, you're less stressed. Are you going to vent? Pick one or two a day, and you're becoming slowly happier. You're getting a point. And that's really how we measure it. To be honest, we measure it. We're, to be honest, we measure things based on points.

Whereas everyone else in the world, outside of research, they're thinking about this idea, this ideal that may never actually happen. Yeah, I think that that's very dangerous too, is when, and social media does that to us too. Women's bodies are perfect, men's bodies are perfect, everybody's rich, everybody has a Lambo. And it's almost an unattainable level,

even though most of the time they rented Lambo and then the pictures were photoshopped. Yeah, but we were never meant to look at ourselves this much, you know, we were talking earlier about the autoscopic phenomenon, like, when we do selfies, we're looking at ourselves. When we're talking on FaceTime or we're talking on Zoom, we're looking at ourselves.

We were never meant to look at ourselves. We were never meant for that. I'm supposed to be looking at you and like talking to you and getting feedback from you, not seeing my face next to you. Right, like on a Zoom call. And I think, you know, so let's shift over to women for a minute

because I think a lot of what you're saying, you know, we both agree that, you know, the statistics of women and, you know, autoimmune disease, which is a function of being just exhausted, emotionally, spiritually, physically exhausted. How do people start to shift the mindset of, I feel guilty about engaging in self care and I wanna begin to slowly put myself first. And I think a lot of people are in relationships

where when they start to do that, they're like, whoa, babe, what's wrong with you? You know, what do you? Hey guys, let me tell you about one of my favorite new hydration drinks. Now this is for distance athletes, hits cardio, exercisers, people that sweat a lot or exercise intensely. An A game is a hydration drink. It has eight essential vitamins.

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They actually come from real citrus fruits, and the color is from vegetable juice, not artificial dyes. So next time you're looking for a great hydration drink and you're exercising intensely, A game is your choice. Now let's get back to the Ultimate Human podcast. Unfortunately, that happens a lot. One of the risk factors for high-function depression is being a giver.

And there's a dirty word in psychiatry that we don't use anymore called masochism. Not in the way that the sexual masochism, but masochistic personality disorder. It used to be in the Bible of psychiatry, it got yanked out. Because there were certain problems with it. Parts of masochistic traits were inciting harm on yourself,

from agitating others to treat you poorly. It sounds victim blaming, but there were elements of it, such as delaying your own joy, sacrificing your own happiness for others, bending over backwards, you know, not being comfortable with praise. It's what we call people pleasing these days, right? And many of us as women are, we're people pleasers. We're the caregivers. In my study, I found a high correlation between caregiving and anhedonia. Wow.

And so when you think about being a woman and having, making up 82% of autoimmune conditions and being twice as likely to have depression and anxiety, women are twice as likely to have depression and anxiety compared to men. Yeah. When you think about that, think about your biopsychosocial. Biologically, what's happening? It could be your hormones. Right. Psychologically, what's happening?'s happening, women are at high risk for trauma and attachment styles that are not healthy. And socially, the pressure's on us

to be there for everyone but ourselves. So when you're thinking about being a woman and being this caretaker, really you wanna think about you are a human being with the birthright for joy. You deserve this. That's a great way to reframe it. Yeah, it is your birthright. How important is reframing the way that we speak about things in our life?

Like, you know, I notice a lot of people, it's not the medical term, but they wallow in misery, right? So when you see them, they're like, oh, dude, you know, I just, man, I'm so tired. I'm just exhausted. I mean, I have so many patients I gotta see today. And it's like, you know, they're, they almost enjoy the talk about the misery that they're experiencing.

And I think this has a self-fulfilling prophecy to it. A lot of times, you know, the way that they see themselves is being in a helpless situation where this is just their life. And it is. And are there things like this neuro linguistic feedback where you can reframe the way that you speak about things, certainly the way that you speak to yourself. Absolutely. That self validation is so important. And it's interesting. It's the first one.

It is, it is. It's interesting because when you have people practice laughing. I've seen that too. It's so crazy. They actually become happier. It's like we were born to mirror. We were born to be expressive.

When you look at these videos, because in medical school we had to see so many births, and you see the father with the newborn baby and he's making funny faces, the baby's actually mimicking the father. And this baby is like only a couple of seconds old. Right, right, it was fresh. We were born with these capacities to have expressions,

to have emotions for a reason. So there's a lot of work now looking at just the act of smiling. One of the studies that I got approached with a couple of years ago was about how to change facial features using chemicals so that people are actually looking more pleasant. Because when you're smiling more and you look less angry,

you're getting feedback from the environment and then you're getting that energy from others so you actually feel better about yourselves. This is real. So practicing positive self-talk, not saying that, you know, not to be positive for everything because there is something called toxic positivity,

but being in a practice where you are acknowledging the points of joy in your life and laughing more and smiling more, that can't actually help you to feel happier. So now that we know all the five V's, one of the things that you talk about is planning joy, which I wanna go back to that for a second, because I think that's so important.

And is this an exercise where people could just take out their calendar and say, where have I planned joy in my day? Or they can say, what are the things that bring me joy and then start to put them on your calendar? Like for me, it's, you know, my favorite thing in the world is just family dinners. I mean, it sounds so simple,

but like all my kids are very close to me. They all work in or around the business with me. They've all caught the bug of optimal health. It's amazing. My daughter's moved into the building next to me. My son and his fiance live two blocks down the road. And the first thing I did when I got back from the Middle East was I called him like,

can you guys just come over? And he's like, the dog's just coming out. So we're having dinner tonight. And I'm so excited about it because our family's like a traveling comedy show. But a lot of us are separated by distance too. And so it makes it not as convenient. But how does somebody go about planning this joy?

They first have to identify it and then stick it on their calendar. Well, what you did, you planned your own joy because you identified the signs of your happiness. Yeah, I didn't realize I did that, but that's exactly what I did. What makes you happiest connection with your family. So you planned joy.

You know, for me, every day I planned joy and it doesn't have to be a big win. When I get my daughter to school on time, I'll sit in my living room and I have this delicious coffee that I got from St. Martin and it's rum flavored. It's not rum, I'm not drinking alcohol in the morning. But it's so yummy. And I don't drink too much coffee, it makes me jittery.

But I sit and I savor that cup. And I'm sitting there and I'm like smelling it and it's taking me back to that island. And it's just so rich and it's my time. That's my little plan to joy, celebrating a small win that day. And it grounds me, it tells me I'm worthy that I did something great today

because her school is so strict. If you get there even one minute late, they make you stand outside. Oh really? I'd be so bad with that. I'm so terrible when I actually, one of the few people that had a peaceful divorce, and my ex-wife is actually very close friend of mine,

and my current wife gets along with her. We have a really amazing modern family. But I do remember when we were going through the divorce and we moved to separate houses and it was like, so the kids would be with me and the kids will be with her. And she always took the kids to school, made them lunch, did everything. So then all of a sudden I was having to do it.

And my youngest Dylan, you know, I made his lunch one day and I didn't notice, but before he took his lunch box off the countertop, he went in the refrigerator and got a Red Bull. And he's stuck in his lunch box and he goes to school. So they called me and they were like, hey, we don't allow high energy, high sugar energy drinks in this, in the school.

And I was like, well, good, cause neither do I. They're like, well, no, your son has one. We just wanted to tell you, I'm like, oh, I don, because neither do I. They're like, well, no, your son has one. We just wanted to tell you. I'm like, oh, I don't know who put that in there. And then we come home from school on a Friday and I hung his lunchbox on the wall in the garage and it's Florida, so it's like 90 degrees outside and it sat and baked all weekend.

And then the next Monday, I make him lunch again, pack everything up. We're going to get in the car and he grabs that lunch box off the, uh, garage door, garage wall and he takes that into school instead of it. So I get another call from the school and they're like, Hey, uh, you know, your son had like a half eaten apple and a mushy rotten sandwich. Like it did you?

And I was like, what? I'm not, so he brings all the, you know, the bacon all day in the garage, all weekend in the garage. And then I kid you not, third day, as if like it couldn't go any worse, I was getting them ready for school. And I'm looking at him like, okay, you got matching shoes, got shirt, don't touch anything. I'm gonna follow you to, you know, I'm gonna follow him like, okay, got matching shoes, got shirt, don't touch anything,

I'm gonna follow you to the car. And I'm like, finish your breakfast, he didn't finish his breakfast, so then he gets in the car and he's eating his eggs, and of course he spills them all down the front of himself. And then he looks down on the floor and there was like a pair of Crocs. And so takes his shoes off and puts the Crocs on.

So now he gets out of school in the car line and he's got two non-matching Crocs and his crap all over his shirt. Literally the lady in the line goes, oh, is it daddy's week with the kids? And I was like, you guys must think that I am the worst parent in the world, but I swear I love my kids.

It was like three things in a row, and it was so funny, because even Amy called me, and she's like, what's going on over there? The school called me. But I love that idea of planning joy, and I think that in just about everything, you can find the joy, especially reframing things. And I think you do a lot with women's mental health.

And I think it's really important for women to go through this exercise too, to be okay being a caregiver, but also caring for themselves. Well, I love that story that you shared about being a parent because we all think, oh, well, we're all parents, you're supposed to do this, but I don't think we give ourselves the praise

and celebrate those wins. It's hard being a parent and having a career. It's really hard to, when you get your kid to school and they're fully dressed and they have their food. That was a win for me. I'm like same shoes, no eggs on the shirt, no high energy drinks. That was a win.

Self validate and say, I did that. I'm a great parent. I did that and it was hard. And just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's not hard. And I guess the last thing, cause we haven't talked about it, how important do you find mobility exercise is

to mental health? Because I've actually spoken to Joe Rogan about this a lot. I mean, I've even seen some meta-analyses of exercise versus SSRIs. And being static and taking a pill versus being active and moving your body, endorphins, oxygen, and not the least of is if your body morphic image changes

and you like what you see in the mirror. It's so powerful. It's also one of the things that are underutilized. When you think about it, a lot of people who have severe depression, it's hard to get them out of bed. So even that motion of making your bed every day, again, that's a small win.

You did something, you moved. The thinking used to be, okay, cognitive behavioral therapy, thought leads to feeling, leads to behavior. Now a lot of the work is let's do the behavior first. Let's get up and move first. Oh wow, yeah. And that'll change how you feel

and that'll change how you think. So it's highly underutilized. And when you think about movement, it doesn't have to be jacking yourself up at the gym or doing these intense hit things. Even walking is powerful. Oh, I think walking is the most underrated exercise in the world.

Dancing, we're all from in the Caribbean, when we dance side to side, we do our wine in. Trinidadians, they dance a lot, do they? It feels good. And I always just wonder, why does it feel so good when we like gyrate? Because our right and left veins are communicating, we're healing ourselves.

So however it is, move. Whatever feels authentic to you, move your body. It is healing. I think every form of religion in the world has dance and song and, you know, in addition to prayer, but like they sing, they dance, they play drums. You know, there's something to be said for mobility and just it extends life. I mean, we know that in, again, back to the Blue Zones, that mobility was one of the later in life

was one of those non-negotiables, right? I mean, the more active people were, the longer they lived, the more connected and the more communal sense they had and the more purposeful they were, the longer that they lived. And it's amazing that people like you are bringing joy to this world by teaching people how to find the joy in their life. I really appreciate that. So for my audience that doesn't know how to find you. Where do they find you?

Well thank you for having me. I learned so much from you today so thank you. You learned a lot from me? I learned a lot from you. And I love to learn so thank you. You learned a lot from me. I learned a lot from you. And I love to learn. So thank you. You learned about the hydrogen water. Yeah, we did a hydrogen water demonstration. And the magnesium rock. I mean, that was so cool. I'm getting one.

Yeah, I tried to mark it up like 10 times and sell it to her, but she caught me. So how does my audience find you? Well, you can find me at drjudithjoseph.com and follow me on all the socials, Dr. Judith Joseph. Okay, and I wind down all of my podcasts by asking all my guests the same question. There's no right or wrong answer to this question.

And that is, what does it mean to you to be an ultimate human? To be connected, that is really, I spent so much of my life busying myself away from the things that really brought me joy. And now I will not sacrifice that. I have to be connected to the ones that I love. I love how you referred to your time with your daughter

and your travel schedule. The priority of the connection that you have with your daughter and the joy that she brings you versus traveling. You know, I schedule all of my meetings now around sleep and exercise instead of, so I schedule travel and meetings around sleep and exercise instead of sleep and exercise around my travel meetings.

That little switch has made the most incredible indifference in my life. So, wow, Dr. Joseph, I really appreciate you coming on the Ultimate Human Podcast. I'm sure my audience is gonna get a tremendous amount out of this. We will link the book in the show notes below. Please check her out on social media as well.

And until next time, that's just science.