The Uneducated PT Podcast - #46 Dan Osman - Is your body a self imposed prison.

Episode Date: September 2, 2024

In this episode of the Uneducated PT Podcast we speak to Dan Osman. Dan has over 20 years experience in the fitness industry and seen every trend come and go. In this episode we speak about valuing fitness beyond how it changes how you look, the dangers of giving advice from personal experience, the potential dangers of your body being your business card, emotional eating and much more. 

Hello and welcome to the uneducated PT podcast with me, your host, Carlo Rourke. The goal of this podcast is to bring on interest and knowledgeable people from all walks of life, learn a little something from each conversation and for you, the listener, just learn something from each episode. So don't forget to subscribe to the channel, press the box below, show some support and I'll see you on the next episode. My number one piece of advice for exercise and movement, learn to value it beyond how it might change the shape of your body.

So my question for you is, a lot of people get into exercise because they want to change how they look, right? So why is it important that we look beyond that when we go on this journey of health and fitness? I think initially, like you said, most people, that is the knee joke reaction. That is why I got involved in it. You know, I was a very larger set child and teenager, finding the way in the world. Teenage years, I think a lot of people will realize that they're kind of hard enough. Kids are pretty damn cruel.

So if you have any suspicions about yourself, a lot of that external. reinforcement comes from them in telling you that. So I thought, find initially, although that's the impetus and the concerted reason why most people get involved in health and fitness to ensure it's sustainable and actually becomes all encompassing as part of a healthy lifestyle is that we had layers of value to it, the reasons as to why we do those things. And not from an elitist sense, but I think that solidifies in our minds why these things are important. And that's essentially what discipline is. So it provides us with all of these thoughts, feelings and emotions that are tied to why we value the act of

doing something that is actually internally based. And something that I constantly speak to people about is these inner resources that we're not really brought up to think about. We're brought up to think about how proud others may be of our achievements. Is it something academically? Is it material wealth? Is it some sort of financial success, some sort of status up the social ladder, if you were. And I think because that's so externally based, it's always reliant on essentially strangers to validate those experiences for ourselves. Whereas if we can find the value in health and why we do those things in terms of how it lends itself to living a full of life, chasing the kids around, you know, embracing body functionality that much more, what my body is capable

of outside of how it looks, then naturally as we get older, our bodies change, our thoughts and feelings in terms of what's important. Our appearance wanes, you know, there's a certain amount of beauty privilege. We know that and body ideals within the health and fitness industry. And if we're forever comparing those and basing those measures on external factors, whether that's jumping on the scales and having that reflective as a definitive measure of health or having others congratulate on our change of a shape or change of appearance, which unknown to them could be due to stress, grief, whatever it may be. We tend to celebrate weight loss quite often. we don't really further explore the reasons why.

It solidifies in our minds reasons to why we do those things aside of really wanting to sometimes because we know motivation is fleeting. It's sometimes that bust that never arrives. We know that we can't rely on only doing these things just to shape our appearance forever because sometimes it's out of our hands. You know, and there's a certain amount of identity people will look, associate with looking a certain way. So again, it's taking, I see it as taking power away from the external.

better recognizing our inherent internal value, why we do those things, how we can see it facilitates the best life possible, how being an healthy individual as part of our identity is so important to other aspects. But also it's part of our lives. Like there's so many facets to our identity. These all make up parts of our lives and are parts of our identity. And I'm sure you have your fair share of examples as well. We see so many people that are so all consumed by it being the sole entity of their body. being and when you place so much value and worth and self-worth for a lot of people in that identity of appearance-based or external validation based is where are you left when you no

longer receive that social reinforcement and celebration? What would internal validation look like in terms of exercise and movement for people? I think personal pride and accomplishment. You know, can you actually be proud of yourselves, you know, whether it's a logbook of sorts that you keep for your lifts. It doesn't necessarily matter what those weights are, but are we seeing progress over time? Is that one extra rep at the weight that you used three weeks ago, or is it, you know, five extra kilos, whatever it may be, if you're an individual that doesn't really enjoy running, but you've made a concerted effort to improve your running, you're doing a couch to 5K, and you start off, you can just about run lamppost to lamp post without having a rest. And then perhaps

some sort of internal accomplishment or measure of progress could be, okay, well, I can run 1K now without stopping. I can run 2K now. And I think you then learn to become proud of your own accomplishments. And I forever talk about this with my own children as well. You know, kids and I think of how I was brought up and how they're brought up. They're always looking for someone else to tell them they're doing well. So something I always ask my daughter is like, how do you feel about that?

Did you put a lot of effect into it? Are you proud of that? You know, all these other attributes and qualities which made us mean that we reflect on ourselves, rather than look to others for things. Because sometimes when we hear about external validation, I think our top process is, oh, external validation is a bad thing, it's a negative thing,

but we need a degree of external validation. It's an inherent human thing. It's part of our flawed human psyche. We want to be accepted within society. So there's definitely an element which I think is normal and also probably quite required. It helps us towards our goals. you think of Olympic athletes, they're working towards an Olympic gold medal.

That is external validation. That is recognition from the world that I'm the most accomplished I can be in whatever discipline that is. But I think if you're solely basing your purpose and the reward that you experience, based on what others are saying and you can't recognize that yourselves, that's what leaves people a little bit fleeting, I think, and reeling. Because if you can't find simple joy and accomplishment in the smallest of things, you you know, I drank, I don't drink any water during the day and, oh, look, I'm drinking a

liter and a half. And it's, it doesn't always have to be these grand, tangible things, which I think we always look at when it comes to change. It's the seemingly insignificant, you know, I've been exhausted all week. I know when I've not sleeping well, it lends itself to me making poor dietary decisions. I lean on caffeine to keep me energized. Okay, well, I've had a week now. I've been into bed at a regular time. I feel great. Okay, it's not tangible. I can't go on social media and brag about I've been to bed early, but I feel great. And that to me, from a coaching perspective, is, okay, it's less tangible, but it means that the cascading effect of that, if you like, is better rested individual, better in mood,

better in presence around their friends and family, making more concerned with their food choices. And again, internalised sense of accomplishment, that probably will be recognised by others because, again, external validation is very important. but I'm not relying on that. I can take pride in my own accomplishment aside from what anyone else is telling me. Do you think external validation is almost necessary in order to, in order for people to start on that journey of self-development or the health and fitness journey?

And then obviously over time, that internal validation gets stronger and stronger with conquering challenges. I would certainly agree it's a journey for everyone based on their start. points, their previous experiences, their inherent beliefs about themselves growing up. But it largely is, like, you speak to a lot of individuals and it's got into this sport to prove something to someone. Like, very rarely, I'm not saying there aren't, but very few people start with the thought process of, I need to prove this to myself.

That's like much further down the line. I think that's a good spark. That's a good initial part of the motivation process. I think from sustainability and carrying these habits and health, for a lifetime because we look at physical activity and what we celebrate, you know, societally on social media especially. And it's, it's always based on, you know, locks and wealth and all these other kind of things. But if we want to inherently make these part of our lives, as also physical activity being the single most important thing that people can do to reduce

all round mortality risk, lower the risk of type two diabetes, cardiovascular risk, looking at increasing bone density, all of these other things is if you can do nothing else, even it totally doesn't change the shape of your body or change your weight, just by doing some sort of physical activity, skipping, zumba, swimming, whatever it may be, you're putting yourself in the best step towards the future, I think. Like, there's obviously things and factors that are totally out of our hands, you know, you hear of the worst, you know, people that have gone a lifetime, never smoked a cigarette, and getting lung cancer. And there's much totally out of our control. but I think all of the elements that we can take control of,

internalising these personal accomplishments and taking some assurance in we're doing our best to serve our body, to live the fullest life, to enjoy it whilst we're here, because it's not guaranteed, it's without that sounding too morbid, and making the most with all your loved ones and the experience of what it is to be human, then there are a few support pillars in place, but they're on the basis that we can continue these through a lifetime and it's not like a definitive start date and an end date like a body transformation or any other diet that people embark on and sure that can be the initial motivation that can be the thing that gets the ball rolling but from a longevity point of view

I definitely think that it has to be internally recognized even if it's not internally motivated so you're not always going to be making progress but I can recognize that actually some personal pride and accomplishment comes from doing these things anyway. way. Like it doesn't always have to be towards an outcome. And that's something else I feel we get wrong sometimes. And goals are great. Goals keep people motivated. But sometimes this stuff is just worth doing because it is. It doesn't have to be towards a definitive end. You know, it doesn't have to be towards an outcome. I love, I love, you just mentioned that at the start there. I love that question, like, would you still exercise even if your body couldn't change from training or from exercise?

And I think that goes to show, like if you answer yes, you're probably, in a in a good space to do this for the rest of your life. Yeah, or that person's giving you that response because they know that response is response to give. Whether they believe that or not, you know, that again, that's those inner resources. It's your personal beliefs and your thoughts and your processes because we all have this, if it's your narrative,

I think these stories that we tell ourselves to justify our behaviours. And on the other extreme end is, I feel like these almost become acts of imprisonment for people. that are they held captive to these behaviours that they've got so much social reinforcement from. So, you know, some bodybuilders, some crossfitters, some high rocks athletes, you know, their identity is fitzbo influencer. So it's less about doing what's best for my body and more about maintaining perception,

upkeep. And it's a compulsion to do those things because when those tools are removed away from them, they're left in a bit of an identity crisis. and I think those are the people that struggle the most mentally as well. And we saw a lot of that over the pandemic, people that referred to, I guess, the gym as their therapy. Yes, it has therapeutic properties, and it can be one of those supportive pillars in place.

But when you take that away, have you diversified your coping strategy toolbox enough to lean on something else? Or when you get injured or for whatever reason you can't pursue anything anymore, what are you left with? And, you know, perhaps I'm thinking, much longer in the future for a lot of people. But I don't think that hurts in terms of psychological safety.

Oh, yeah, that you're going into one of the emails that I wanted to touch on. So I might as well skip to this quote and go straight into this one. So another email from you, are people more interested in how you look, what training you do, how you eat, or are followers you've created from people who don't really know you? Do they want to know the real you? Do they care? It's helped your business in the short term. but what about the ideal standards and body image?

Did the behaviours you adopt that at the time empower you or contribute to this self-imposed prison where your body shape is so closely aligned with your identity? So my question is, especially for any young personal trainers who listen to this podcast, because there is a few, like what are the potential dangers of almost using your body as your business? I don't think perhaps danger is too strong a word that I would use. I think like just an air of caution, I think,

and that comes from tying your identity to anything. And that doesn't have to be health and fitness related. That's, you know, the paleo-vegan cross-fitter, like whatever it may be, if you align your identity too strongly with one thing. So I know with my past of, you know, my past is very unique to me, but something I have experienced with a lot of people

is that it's not really superiority they're chasing or the body ideal is just to fit in. And because standards are so high, I know when I came into the industry, there's a little bit of monkey see, monkey do. I came through a little bit more of an academic route. So I was personal training at university, I had a fully subsized personal training qualification

because I always had ambitions of going into S&C. And then I've got a job as a strength and conditioning coach. And so my, I guess my baptism into fitness is everyone's half naked. Everyone that is being heard to and considered an authority in the professional space has single digit body fat. I need to emulate that in some way. And I did. I did.

But then once you're there, is that takes a certain amount of upkeep, which for some people, you know, they can do naturally, genetically, whatever it may be. But for others, it takes an incredible amount of effort that takes away from other aspects of life to uptake that. And I actually found for me, in my personal experience, is that it became more of a negative. So I could maintain it, but it was the detriment to actually quality of life. And actually what I wanted in the industry as well, like did I want to be considered as that? You know, I did physique competitions.

I could coach physique athletes. And I've used this reference point before, but I became, I'm using air quotations for the sake of listeners, a sponsored athlete of a well-known supplement brand at the time. And remember the dread that the prep of going to body power used to fill me with because I knew there was a certain expectation of me from the, from the brand and from people that might be attending. And the marketing is executive at the time was asking people,

if they're wanting pictures with me with my shirt on or shirt off. So although I was getting positive reinforcement, then having much in my younger years experienced a lot of the negative. I just thought, I think I had more value than this. Like I don't want to be recognised just for this. And also, I don't think it's a fair representation of what I value as a professional. you know, it's the, it's the presentation of health,

and I think which isn't always visually reflected. Because I know at that time, I was going to unhealthy lengths mentally and physically to reach those. I know many others that did as well, you know. So when I was coaching physique athletes, that kind of became the straw that broke the camel's back. And, you know, based on your question

and health and fitness professionals are doing very successful photoshoots, that will just sell out very easily. It's very profitable fat loss, body transformations as part of that diet culture thing, and visually embodying that is very profitable as well, or can be. But it depends on what the opportunities you want. Some people want that out of their professional career. I know some people label themselves as influencers.

And that is a credible vocation for them. I just discovered that wasn't for me. I don't want to be judged on my appearance. I kind of want to be judged on what's between my ears. Can I ask you a question on the back of that? So let's say there's someone in a similar situation to you, but they feel like pigeonholed into holding up these standards or ideals or identity because it's probably in their business, other people expected of them.

Like the more you build up to that identity, the harder I presume is to kind of reverse engineer or step back from that. So how did you manage to do that? I think for a lot of people it is that some people are totally fine with it. Don't get me wrong. I'm very aware that people don't think in depth of, in depths of these things. And everyone's got very different experiences. So I'm not standing here and more really grandstanding and preaching to anyone.

Everyone does their own thing. But for me, I noticed it had really impacted my quality of life. And actually much of the time that could have been allocated to spending time with friends, family, perhaps meals that I got invited to that I'd eat out of Tupperware. in the car on the run to. I just didn't want to lead my life like that. And professionally, I didn't think I was reflecting actually what I value. So it became an inauthentic, but presented an authentic version of me. Because it's almost like this persona I was playing on because it was in a quotation successful, where seemingly this is what everyone else wanted

to see. But it didn't feel right to me. And I think for anyone in that situation, it was the recognisation there myself that I can only. sustain this for so long. And that's a really difficult move. And for some people, it's a bold move. I decided in 2019 I would no longer use before and after pictures because I wanted my message to reflect how I thought about health, which is, you discussed with certain individuals. Okay, like, you can't base someone's health status on their appearance, but with a bit further conversation, because I'm not going to, I don't strictly believe that in a acute sense in that if you have a conversation with an individual, they are in a much larger body, they are

classed as clinically obese on a BMI, very sedentary, they don't exercise, they do smoke, they drink lots of alcohol, there's a clear trajectory of their health, you know, for that individual. So you can make some assumption without judgment, and I can keep those to myself, I don't need to say anything about that. But that's only on further investigation. But equally said, other very fit, healthy individuals that do have a higher BMI. I'm classed as obese, beast now. You know, perhaps my body shape doesn't reflect that. I'm very conscious saying that out loud, but it isn't reflective of that. So I think it's only when we have a clear understanding. So I decided to draw down and make that my message is actually how to embody practice,

which wasn't always visually reflected in that embracing going for a walk, not to do my step count, just because I like going for a walk. And I think it's a good thing to do for your health. And that, I guess that reflects the very first thing we spoke about in terms of value in things. things is can I value just going for a walk because it's a nice thing to do. It's a nice day. I enjoy going for a walk with my dog or is it to hit a step target? And I think that those are distinguishing factors which are between imprisonment and empowerment. As in, am I doing that thing out of choice because I recognise the benefits of it? Are am I doing that because I feel compelled to do it because my watch is telling me I need to do those steps or I can't eat that

something because it doesn't fit into my macros or, you know, I'm procrastinating over 10 grams of carbs here or 10 grams of fat there at the end of the day. Like how much of the energy and cognitive capacity is that taking up? Is that actually helping my business? And I was probably in the slightly disillusioned in that all of these controllables, all of these safety behaviours, which were part of this identity and upkeep, they were applauded. They were met with curiosity. but also they were taking a lot of headspace. I was thinking about when do I get workouts in. I was thinking about when do I do my food prep.

Instead of focusing on getting good quality sleep, is staying up late and doing food prep and eating cold food out of Tupperware all the time. And again, socially reinforced, that was positive reinforcement from others. But it was all about how it left me feeling. So it's not for me to decide what anyone else should be doing. Again, that's one of those things I think you can suspect.

or you get that inner discernment when you have a conversation with someone about their practices, their preps, and there are certain rituals they have around things. Like, oh, okay, well, that might be your normal. That's certainly not mine or more, anything I want to emulate. And I always wonder about those people further down the line. And I have had conversations with people from my competing days, which are still there.

They've aired their body image concerns. They've aired their food relationship concerns. they're perhaps deviated slightly and gone into a sport which helps maintain the physical appearance they used to have or as close to that. And that again is that if it fits your narrative is the story I've told myself is that I've gone into this because now I'm in the pursuit of performance.

But realistically, if we get underneath the layers, I just know it keeps my body smaller. It keeps it close to that body ideal. And I can maintain that presence and that persona presented online because that is what gets me. followers, that's what gets people into my program. So to turn a blind eye to potential money you could make, potential accolade and celebration and popularity you can get, only you can decide, you know, and that was one of my key things in terms of my social media messaging. So I think

my advice would be to anyone in that space is just constant. re-evaluate this thing. Constantly re-evaluate your values as well. Values change. If you asked me my 20s what my values were, I wouldn't have a clue. Couldn't have told you. Did I know what I valued? I was just emulating what was around me. That person, I perceive as successful.

I need to do what they do. Wasn't really thinking about how it made me feel or what practice went into maintaining that. Can I actually answer your question? You did, you did. You've been in many circles. I apologize.

Because one thing I asked you there was like how did you find the awareness to understand that this isn't the route you wanted to go down and then make the kind of the steps backwards. And I think one thing you touched on a couple of times there that I think it's probably really important. It's kind of understanding your core values in order to make and create an awareness around what's important to you and what's not serving you anymore. I mean there were a few standout moments for me. So I was doing one competition prep. And I'd arrange with my wife to go out shopping for the day, just towards the later stages. And I was so exhausted rather than go shopping, walking around the shop. I slept in the car.

Yeah. And my last competition before my daughter arrived, I was backstage getting preps. And I thought, I hate this. I don't even like posing. Nothing about, I like the shape I get to. I like the discipline involved. But I don't like parading around my pants. And I don't like being judged by strangers.

on my appearance, but here I am having sought some sort of validation from other people based my appearance, my whole life from the negative when I was judged about being a bigger kid, to trying to prove something to everyone else and get phrased from the other side is, actually, I just, I like, you know, I think I have much more to me as a human. I don't want to be judged on my appearance all the time. I don't want, you know, my credibility to be, you know, how lean I am or how muscular am and all those kind of things. So a lot of it was self-reflected, but I always find the fascinating thing about self-aware is that you need to be a little bit self-aware to become more aware, which a lot of people

aren't because you kind of, when you're in the midst of it and you have tunnel vision and there's certainly times when I didn't notice it was a problem. And I thought you get that mindset of, oh, everyone else is the problem. Oh, that person isn't supported me. and that's how you internalize. Again, that if you fix your narrative, how you justify certain things. But then when you zoom out and focus on the broader picture,

I think you can be able to be more objective about it. So that was a key moment for me. The comp-prepping other people thing was, I've used this example, a couple times, so don't mind sharing it's so far down the line anyway. I'm not disclosing any personal details here, but I'd comp prep someone. They'd run a national competition.

they'd run a European competition. But along the way, I just noticed certain things. They were taken to their own hands. They were doing a lot more cardio than I suggested. They were out for steps at 4 o'clock in the morning. They were telling me they're adhering to their diet, but their weight drop was quite significant. And towards the latter stages,

that should really slow. You shouldn't notice a significant change, like they were changing with her. Visibly drawn, visibly looking unhealthy, if I had to make a snapshot judge. and having worked with that person over two years, I felt I knew them quite well. And we decided that European competition was going to be the last, and then we'd focus more on her health and everything else.

And she decided to go ahead and do it anyway. It's quite short between the Europeans and the world championships that she went to. And she just really deteriorated. I mean, quite an honest and frank conversation. Nothing unto all, like fairly open, honest, in, you know, and considered, we're still friends, still. still know of them. And it came about that she had anorexia.

That was something inherently within their family, mothers, sisters, etc. But she'd never disclosed that. And I don't see that as her being deceptive. I see that it has how deceptive these mental illnesses can be. So for me, that was just like, this is counter to what I want to promote. this is counter to my message. That might be what socially reinforced by everyone else and, you know, glorified and evangelised in the health and fitness space.

But by definition, that's not health. But what am I doing? So that was another key moment for me. And I think I'd all had all these thoughts and feelings about myself at that time. And I just thought, I just, I wouldn't know part of this. And I still see people that I competed with now in this perpetual cycle of year after year, it's a competition. and they're not,

they're talking about bringing their best package. They're talking about their bulks and adding slabs of muscle, but they're not taking more than eight weeks away from a photo shoot or a comp. So to me, that would be more indicative of they're having real trouble with their body image

actually coming away from that leaner physique. And I get like these aren't conversations we can oppose on people. Any kind of behaviour change, as we know, is it has to be driven by that individual. You know, you can, the whole, you can lead a horse to water thing. You know, you can tell someone that's smoking 60 cigarettes a day,

probably isn't great for their health, but I can't make them stop. They have to decide to themselves. So that's my concern is the direction that a lot has gone, is that people are in these perpetual cycles and struggles of themselves. And as you say, that maybe don't have that self-awareness, or they're ignoring it because we've seen substantial rise in male and phympie. female eating disorders over recent years, male and female body image concerns with children as young as three talking about, you know, boys talking about the shapes of their bodies.

A few years ago, I saw a little girl, she couldn't be no much older than my daughter, about about seven or eight. And she's arguing with her mum about buying a diet milkshake in the supermarket. And that's all culturally driven. That is this, I guess this web of influence I refer to quite a lot, is with media. social media. We obviously have our parental influences, which everyone's doing their best. I can see some differences between how I was bought up, you know, earned dessert, finish everything on your plate. You've got to burn that off, et cetera, et cetera. But also part of that web of influence is your peers. I am the peer of many other people in the fitness industry and also people that come to me for

support and guidance. I've got to be conscious about my own messaging and that means I don't hide my body, but I don't parade it. I don't use it to capture attention. I wouldn't, you know, and people do. Like, that's their own thing. I'm not being too judgmental here, but the whole body is your business card thing. It's slightly misleading as well. In the promotion of fat loss, it's accounted to what a lot of people need, I feel. So I feel that a lot of these people that promise the support with fat loss, they're actively promoting fat loss by promiscounting. missing you better your body image and better your body relationship with food. And the two have very different focuses.

You can support an individual with a fat loss. But one draws attention to your body, the promotion of fat loss, where you're looking at external scale weight, measurements, pictures, getting on a stage, doing a photoshoot. You will bring in your sole focus to the shape of your body. Now, to work on your body image and your relationship with food, you almost want to move yourself to a place of indifference. There's not to say you won't use any of those reflective measures in there to monitor progress.

It's just you don't want the sole focus to be that because that is what people gives people so many insecurities and gripes around that food. So I don't know whether it's perhaps, I think on the broadest, for the broadest, I'll try and put this as singly as possible. The intent is the best. They don't necessarily aware of these things. my body is my business card, I must show before and after pictures. I must show videos of me and not a lot of clothing in the gym, etc.

But if in the same breath you're talking about better confidence, body image, increasing your mental health, etc., etc. I think you've just got a question what your message is. If you're a fat loss coach, embrace fat loss, fine, do it all. Do you think that it's that they actually don't understand them? Because saying that, I'm going to help you to improve. your relationship with food and your body image. It's almost become like a marketing phrase now that people aren't that don't really think

in depth about it when they market that out on social media while showing off a picture of their abs or their glutes or whatever it is. Yeah, feeling highly relatable with my slither of body of fat. Look at me. I'm just like you. I think for the broadest, and this is maybe my being naive or being a bit more optimistic about it, for most people it comes from the best place. I'm here to inspire part of that means showing that I can embody my practice.

And they don't know any different. It is a gase like monkey see, monkey do like I did. That's the mistakes I made. I'm not judging anyone on that. There is a much smaller proportion that do know better and choose not to do better because I see it's almost like predatory capitalism. This sells. Like I know this sells. I know if I've got spaces to fill.

I know if I promote before and after pictures, which by the way, again, I have done. If anyone wants to go down earlier pages, that's how I used to market my services, for I to shoot packages, physique, comp, prep, etc. It's profitable. And to consciously, I don't want to say turning, like make it as crass as turning down money,

but make my business model more challenging, which relies on my messaging more, you're asking people to take 10 steps back before they can take two steps forward, which you and I both know, If you're working with a relationship with food and body image, that's the really arduous and uncomfortable period. And truthfully, it wasn't, it was just a coincidence. It wasn't deliberate by any stretching imagination. The latter part of 2019, when I decided to stop using before and after

pictures and change my messaging slightly, we also had the pandemic in 2020. So I lost two-thirds of my business, essentially, because I was still doing a lot in person. which that went out the window or the corporate well-being talks that was giving that were in person that went out the window and my new refined model which was my much smaller working capacity online was then solely reliant on this change of my message which was intended to be more of a gradual thing but I guess any people that had followed me for certain reasons then and it's not that I still can't speak to those things as well it's just I choose not to and again that's the choice thing I think I know fat loss content would be more popular.

I know talking about macros would probably reach more people, but again, that's counter to my values and the principles I want to put forward from a coaching perspective. Again, this isn't a superior or anything. This isn't a moral grandstanding thing. This is just what helps me sleep at night. Yeah.

It's living in line with your values as a business, but also as a person. Yes, because for fitness professionals as well, I think so much of our personal identity is involved with our professional identity. It's different. It is much different to many other, I guess, vocations in which people go to work, they leave work at work. So a lot of us are self-employed.

So that comes with it's all-encompassing, always on your mind. There's always something that can be done thing anyway. But you embody a lot of the practice. You feel passionate about what you're promoting. And it also just so happens to pay your bills, your mortgage, etc. And that was my intent coming into India. and this new wave of coming into the industry because you want to make a certain amount. There's nothing wrong with making money, but I think fundamentally it has to come from

your willing and want to help people. And that comes from basic coaching skills. And there's a big difference, I think, in the industry at the moment between what's been the status quo and what's been expected and what's been delivered to actually what coaching is. So I see quite a lot of that's, I describe it as deliverable products, which is, I don't say cookie cutter, but it's not very into individual. Again, that depends on people's business models. What they want to use is entirely up to them. Just don't call it one-to-one coaching service. That's my only gripe. You know, one-to-one coaching service where you have an in-depth conversations about people's past, their relationship with food, etc. It might have a slightly higher barrier to entry in terms of,

investment for an individual, but that's reflected in the service they get. But between professionals and also between consumers is an online fitness coach, is an online fitness coach. I don't want to get into the weeds of titles and stuff because I don't think that's important. I think it's just important to communicate exactly what that individual is getting. So probably they know what they're getting and you know what you're delivering. I'm cool with that. It's just I hear of a lot of people, whether it's mentoring or it's just, you know, health coaching, people that sign up for a one-to-one service and just like stuck in a group and I've got the same program as everyone else. That's fine.

But the price has to reflect that and you have to be transparent with how that's marketed in the first place. If you sign up, you or I sign up to a business mentor and I find on one of 100 people, I do one group call a month. And I've been given a business success coach that I've never heard of, of that is in the same position as me, but what am I getting for my money? That's just inherently wrong, in my opinion. And that's where I think a lot of the mis-selling goes.

Back to what we were saying before, I think there's people that aren't really aware of those things, and they are doing their best. And it's, you know, it's not the best, but they are doing their best, because I can reflect on things years ago, which I'm not particularly proud of now. But at that time, I confidently say, I was doing my best, I knew no better.

Yeah, yeah. Then when you come through that evolution, you're like, I do know better, but also I can make money from that. That's the bit that doesn't really sit well with me. So we know that like a lot of people, and I'd be the exact same. When I knew better, I did better. But we also know then on the more sinister side of things that, you know, like you said, if when your personality is kind of tied up in your business and your business is your personality and your business and let's say if we use it. like, okay, your identity is now the carnivore diet. Like, do you think when someone's identity is wrapped up in that,

it makes them more susceptible to lie on behalf of their, or mislead the truth on behalf of their business or their product or their service? I'd agree with that. I think so. And because, again, they're tied to it. But it's because that incongerance is also felt from their audience. So when you reach a certain level, and I don't envy, I really, I truly, I don't envy, you know, people with millions of followers, especially activists. There's no room for nuance anyone.

Yeah. Because your audience are following you for one thing. And you've got, you got to perform for that. You know, I've seen, for example, over the years, doctors that have called themselves fat advocates. And, you know, there's a nuanced conversation there is, like, not everyone should be judged on their appearance. but equally you can't not acknowledge there is no risk to someone from carrying a certain amount of adiposity around their internal organs. You know, and that's, I think, where body positivity got wrong.

But when you gain an audience from that, you've then got to perform for that audience. There is no room to, yeah, you can't judge people by their appearance. But, you know, if they're sedentry, they don't do that stuff. They don't talk about that stuff because they're relying on that constant feedback from their audience. So I don't envy that from that standpoint. And I do think people get in, some people are wholeheartedly in the belief, you know, use the calm for it, for example. But the feeling your audience gets is incongerance. And if you're flip-flopping between messages, I think we've got pretty good bullshit detectors, even through a screen and any kind of like wearing of inauthenticity or

I feel like this person is just trying to con me that soon switches people off. Yeah. you know, that soon switches people off. So I'm much more comfortable, whether it's an opinion that someone agrees with or disagrees with is this is my message, this is my opinion. Some things we present as opinions as well, which doesn't mean I'm right. If this is something that resonates with you, amazing. But if it doesn't, like there are plenty of other things, but I'm not going to perform because that is inherently inauthentic. And I think, you know, people are in this, inauthentic, authentic rut is to be authentic

they're presenting what they think everyone wants to see and calling it authenticity but really it's not was that too many circles of inauthentic and authentic there no I know like inauthentic persona authentically presented but doesn't actually

align with the person they are well that's when the persona outweighs the person and the person loses who they essentially are supposed to be yeah I'm not one massive one for quotes and I don't actually know where it came from but it's always one that sticks in my mind

is that and I think it's so reflected in social media is that the persona is incapable of feeding love only receiving praise because that's what they're used to now they're used to that kind of social currency of likes yeah it is the social currency and you know back to that initial discussion we're having about

you know are people interested in you as a person or are they just interested in your training? Are they just interested in this identity and persona that you present online? We all know it's a show reel. That's a scary question to ask yourself, though, isn't it? Because you could take that down so many rabbiholes. I know myself. Or it does, let's say, right, I'm, you know, the go-to trainer in my town and people love me

or I love stopping and talking to me on the street because they know that I'm good at my job or, you know, I can help them to get in shape, right? And like, that feels good. That feels great. But then when you have to ask you said, okay, do they actually like me as a person? Do they like Carl as the person? Or do they just like me for what I do? When you present your beliefs and opinions and your knowledge and your experience,

is that based on what you truly think and feel or are you withholding any of that? You don't have to answer. That, you know, that's something I think about. and if I can honestly say, well, no, I do believe those things. I'm not just saying those things. Like if I say it, I mean it. Yeah, yeah. Then that is you because you are in there.

Your personalities in there. Yeah, your knowledge based, but also your beliefs, you know, what you may do in your personal life is that's what people are more attuned with, I think. But it's a very, it's a difficult question to ask yourself. It's also a difficult one to ever get a definitive answer for. Yeah. because if you've got thousands of people following you, you're not going to meet them all face to face.

But I always find it interesting with things like, you know, we met IFS is people will say, I met so and so. I can't believe how they are online. It's like almost like something to praise them about. To me, I'm baffled by that. So why would you, being someone else is so hard. Yeah.

Being yourself, being yourself, but accepting that not everyone, may like you. And look, I'm like any other human. We all want to be liked. But I'm fully in the knowledge. I don't even like everyone. So it's impossible for everyone's like me or resonate with my message. And sometimes that's people's projections. Sometimes they don't really know you or only know a version of you. But I like to think I'm the same person talking to you now as I would be in person. Yeah, I can confirm this. Thank you. I'll pay you that 50 quid later. Yeah, so I think the presentation is a difficult question to ask yourself, but if you can honestly reflect them, you know, is that, did I give that person the answer that I truly believe or did I give them a filtered, curated version? Because I thought that might appeal to them more.

That's the question is they like the persona or they like me. And I suppose if you do take that question in terms of like the industry of personal trend, I suppose people are buying into your personality. more so than what you do anyway. So it kind of can be the same answer. It can be, okay, they like you for what you do, but what you do is just be yourself. Yeah. And it's a part of you.

It's definitely a facet of you because I keep saying, because I've got that from my three-year-old trying to get him to say because, and I started saying because, I lost my trial of thought there. You're just saying, Don't worry. You have an Irish audience who are very, very used to hearing slang from me and I'm barely speaking. You need to put subtitles on this one. I have another quote for you that I want you to go into anyway. So email number three was antidotes and personal experiences do not apply to all.

Genetically gifted fitness personalities who have achieved changes based on them and their experiences are not used. So can you talk a little bit more about the dangers of listening to the, you know, this worked for me, so therefore this will work for you type of advice that we see circulating online. I don't know whether it's the accent or does that sound as scathing as I wrote here. I don't know whether. No. Yeah, I think we overvalue anecdote and we undervalue individual differences quite often. So it's great to see, not being sexist by this, but some genetically you give.

individual with volumptuous glutes showing you a glute routine and what works for them. But there's, you know, there is genetics in there. There's their responsibilities, etc. in life. Because, sorry, the key element there as well, which lends itself to this, which when I lost my trail, I thought is that distinguishably, a lot of fitness professionals knowledge-based isn't much different when it comes to health, fitness, nutrition. Might be a difference in an experience, but it is that personality being the distinct. which she brought in. So with a Fitspo influencer that is quite genetically gifted,

this has worked with me. It's always a case of n equals one. That is all anecdote based. It's what's work for me. And I think there's just a bit of, well, an air of caution everyone needs when someone is only using themselves as an example. You know,

if they can't draw from a wealth of experience or perhaps people this has worked for, then it is solely based on them. So if an individual's got one million followers, yet, you know, and they call themselves a coach and they do any instruction videos, yeah, there's no one on their grid apart from them. I'd question, okay, that works for you, but is that going to work for me? And with the general public, they acknowledge those differences though as well.

Yeah, with the general public, though, that isn't that the problem because the story is the problem because the story is what's captivating. The story of this is what worked for me. and then you get you getting trawled in that versus you know it's a lot more sexier than though this is the research on this or this is evidence based are you saying that people wouldn't be as happy to see me doing hip thrusts no yeah it's just i say an air of caution it's just a healthy level of scepticism i see it as when you're you know you're following certain individuals and the information they present is that can be a source of information but as that individual

goes through their evolution is you see pages dedicated which are the documentation of me. And I think they're great. You know, you hear about people that have gone through traumatic things. They've come out the other side. They've beaten the illness. And that's great. And as that evolves, it might be they've helped one or two people.

But if, you know, a million followers down the line and still, I'm just all I can hear about you. What about everyone else? And I'm a mum with two under five. And, you know, I'm a dad that doesn't get home until 10 o'clock at night. You know, how's this applicable to me? I just think it's just something to be mindful of when it comes to personal anecdote and short, you know, I think some of these people as well, which are genetically gifted that will acknowledge nuances. They also use evidence-based practice to back that up as well, like as another facet of it. But if it's just them, their thoughts, their opinions, there's not to say they're less credible, but it's just if you are consciously seeking out the most,

credible, don't use just how someone looks as the definitive measure based on what works for them. Yeah. I think it can be like, we're training in an exercise. Okay. I think we're, when it comes to nutrition, I think it can be even more damaging. Like, I remember I was driving the football and I was in the car with four lads and, you know, they were all saying how they were going to start fasting now because they seen Dana White did this fast and, you know, it repaired itself and so on and so forth. and then decide, well, if Dana's doing it, because, you know, Dana must get the best advice from the best experts in the world, then, you know, it must work for me as well then.

Yeah, but, you know, Dana White also probably gets the highest quality steak and his meals prepared for him and he's a busy guy and doesn't have to want to ask for anything, hasn't got childcare concerning him with. Like, there's all these other things that are in there and just having an awareness of those. It doesn't discredit those people. It just goes like, okay, that's cool, that works for them.

But I need to maybe filter out some of this. And whereas that might be optimal in the eyes of Huberman, but actually like what's just pragmatic for me? Yeah, yeah. Would I know people ask themselves that? Yeah, and it's that seemingly insignificant stuff. Again, it's not the grand lifestyle change that everyone thinks they need, is, oh, I need to fast, I need to slash my calories in half.

I need to train twice a day. It's, you know, can I eat a few more vegetables? walls can I just get out for a couple of walks a day? Just every couple of hours can have a 10 minute break from my computer screen and just move my my body a bit. And those are the things that consistently pile up over time. That's what builds a momentum. But like anything in this day and ages, we want to see everything, Amazon Prime the next day.

And we, with high profile characters, well, we deliver these, I say we deliver, we develop these weird parosocial relationships where we almost befriend people. based on what we know about them, but we don't really know them. So Joe Rogan, for example, a big fan of his comedy. I like his podcast. I'm not a massive fan of his health and fitness advice, but I can filter past that because I enjoy those other aspects. But, you know, his latest thing is promoting TRT.

I can acknowledge that TRT for some men is life-changing, the same as HRT is life-changing for some women. But that's not a broad recommendation for all, just because that works for him. Yeah. You know, and there's so many other little nuances in there. It's everyone has a natural threshold. Some people as well in our space,

I think it's a justifiable means of going on gear because they're not taking HRT doses. They're taking super physiological doses. So they're justifying it as HRT. But if you're taking yourself above whatever your natural threshold is, we're just taking performance and nursing drugs. Again, fine. and no judgment, just only it.

I think that's just that lack of transparency in there that. What do you think should be the relationship in terms of ownership to, let's say, you know, personal responsibility, whether to take that advice on board that you hear online from these big platforms versus the big platform and their responsibility, responsibility to information they put out and, you know, circling in my head there as you talk about Joe Rogan. I'm also thinking of like the diary of a CEO and, you know, the backlash that Stephen's gotten for some of his nutrition experts and stuff like that.

Like what do you think should be the balance between these big platforms and the people actually listening and saying, okay, does that apply to my life in my circumstances? So the comparison there, let's use Joe Rogan and Stephen Boliv, for example, is, I see this, like the grace I would give someone. So let's give Joe Rogan. Rogan the Grace, for example. So yeah, he might seek out his experts and take on board and regurgers take certain things, but it's him and his producer. Yeah, yeah. That's it. Yeah. I, you can, you can, and he, by his own admission will say I stay, I'm not sticking up with

Joe Rogan here, by the way, but just going based on what I've heard is, I'm an idiot. I get shit wrong all the time. I'm always happy to change my mind. I think when you have the means that Stephen has and the social media. knowledge, the industry knowledge and the awareness that sensationalism gets clickbait, gets click revenues. You know, if I put this clip out of someone crying or I'd say that exercise isn't important or, you know, vegetables are going to kill yourself. I know what the response is going to get for that. He has a huge team. I think he has his due diligence to not necessarily fact check everything that comes out of those people's mouths, but to at least

explore the credibility of those individuals. So he had a C. Malhotra on recently. C. Malhotra has been widely discredited. He's lost his position on boards, not just for being controversial, but you know, suggesting that people don't have statins or whatnot. So when faced with further proof, let's say this was just an oversight by his team and him and they hadn't done their due diligence, is you do have the power. to take those episodes down.

But when you see the click revenue coming and you see how popular is getting all the rage baiting and all the people that are commenting, like we do as fitness professionals because we can't help ourselves. It's just morally repensable, I think, in my opinion, because it is just, I'm just capitalising and praying on people's whatever, you know, whether it's positive reaction and negative reaction. I don't care. I just want as many eyes on this as possible.

again with Joe Rogan is just passing comments it's just conversations like we are really I know you're very politely letting me do a lot of talking

you have a lot more to say than I do I believe it or not I completely understand I don't believe it or not I do I completely understand what you're saying and you know

credit to Joe as well like he does give push back on things that he probably doesn't agree with and you're not going to be an expert on every subject as you're just someone who started the podcast. But I understand what you're saying in terms of, okay, when you're deliberately looking for that clickbait

regardless of the information, it's a bit sinister then. Yeah, definitely. There's something, perfect word for it, a little bit more sinister and deliberate and intentful about it. You see clips pulled from Joe Rogan. It's just a conversation and someone's going, oh, right, I'm going to use that and I'm going to comment on it.

and I'm going to do my blurb over the top is these are curated by his team. They have an understanding of the sort of response they're going to get. He must read comments. He must read comments or his team reads comments. And this is the thing about, I think, if you didn't have the, if two-man band like Joe Rogan and his producer, they haven't got the means to do that. But I don't know how many people work for Stephen, but his background is social media. He has a huge team of people whose jobs it is to do this.

and if it's an oversight on their part, he has some knowledge going into those interviews of who these individuals are. And he also has the knowledge of the common section that are very, very telling that, okay, this is information that you should fact check. Yeah.

And also inherently bias. He knows that when he's promoting certain products that he's an investor in, which I know he's been pulled up for recently, is if you're promoting Zoe, for example, example and you're interviewing Tim Spector or it's just confirmation bias on your part isn't it? You're you're using your position of influence to push an agenda. So that's not only click revenue for those episodes.

That's so people go out and they buy these expenses of unnecessary products to invest in. Do you think that's one of the downsides of alternative media, although there's a lot of benefits to it as well, that it's not regulated and people can essentially say what they want and and have these kind of biases that could be harmful. Well, there's definitely pros. I 100% agree with there because no one wants, as much as I might not agree with what everyone says is freedom of speech is something I do fundamentally agree in and differing of opinions and not being fearful of being cancelled because council cultures just eat their own. They're just, no one is safe. Everyone says stupid stuff and to not be able to apologize and learn from your mistakes made.

I don't think that's something I believe in. But trying to find that line, isn't it? Like that line is a very difficult line to find. And with the pros, of course there's cons, but then our industry is unregulated. Yeah. you know in a well i did my postgrading nutrition in 2014 and at that time it was considered that you would need that so that's what i decided to do but the title of nutrition is he's not protected any shape or form my mum my wife like my daughter go out and call herself a nutritionist

what the the message that messages that people and i guess that's why i'm so vehemently protected of someone that's been, I was having this conversation with someone I work with this morning is if you grow up in the environment where you have been bullied, you have been mistreated, you have experienced the things that are unjust, seeing bullies or people deliberately capitalising on others or abusing positions of power now, like it really gets to me on a, on something like, I don't want to use an extreme term like triggered, but I feel like I'm better position now that I kind of want to speak up for people. I do feel an incredible sense of responsibility with social media. So some of the stuff I think on surface level that I put out

might be seen as, oh, that's just being negative. But I always want to encourage thought. Yeah. I want people to develop these healthy level of skepticism skills because I don't, I don't want to be calling people out by name. But if I can identify some lapses in judgment or where you can see flaws in these things for people to make up their own mind, that's what I want to do. I want to kind of stand up for the smaller person because I have been that smaller person. And that's a bit of a me issue. That's always been a bit of a me issue. You know, having, as I said, been bullied and stuff

and not really spoken up for myself growing up is now I'm in a more confident position where I do want to speak up and I do have my own thoughts and opinions on things and I don't like seeing people taking advantage of. You know, that's just wrong morally to me. I think sometimes cutting my nose off to spite my face or I'm a bit stubborn when it comes to my principles on things.

I'm willing to lose my mind. money on, you know, on saying my mind sometimes. And that is, I guess, the pro of freedom speech is I'm not really fearful of repercussions. And if people don't agree with me, I'm good with that. Yeah. But I'm going to see. Although you might lose money, you, how you gain peace of mind. Yeah. And that's, that's not an easy decision by any stretch of the imagination. But, you know, I'm, I say that and make it sound like I'm, I'm batting it away. But I know, I know, to promote me as a health and fitness professional that could use before and after pictures.

I could talk about scale weight loss, the people I work with this week. I could talk about fine. There's all these other aspects of I could do, but I'm always left with a question, should I? And again, how does that align with my own personal values and how I feel about it? Email number five, are you emotionally eating?

Are you emotionally eating or are you emotional about it? eating. So improving your relationship with food is often very little to do with food and more to do with enhancing your relationship with yourself. Can you go in on this a little bit with the listeners and maybe kind of distinguish the difference between emotional eating and being emotional about eating and why it matters? I think the latter that being emotional about eating, it reinforces the former. So you end up in this perpetual cycle where people with difficulties with their relation with food, is food is all consuming. It's on their mind all of the time. So it's a perfectly acceptable

and normal coping strategy. I think it gets a bit of a bad rep as something we should rid ourselves of. I think personally it only becomes problematic when it's the only tool we have to lean on. And for a lot of people it is, it was for me growing up as a kid. It was when I was sad I'd eat, when I was happy I'd eat. It was just, you know, so again, psychological safety. This, you know, this has a clear trajectory of how it's going to make me feel. don't like how I'm feeling right now and eating is going to help me get away from that. And I know that eating is not going to help me in the future, but right now this is just too difficult to bear. And that again is that perpetual cycle where you'll end up being emotional

about the eating process, which then reinforces the emotional eating part and why people end up in these vicious cycles of emotional eating and binge eating. So what would you say are some steps in order to kind of step out of that guilt or shame around emotional eating or feeling emotional about eating. Initially it's reflecting on the diversity of that toolbox. Are there other things you could be doing? Are there other investments in your time and energy in life? Is it loneliness? Is it connection you need? Is it, you know, going for a cup of tea with a friend? Like often when we emotion, you eat, as I said, it's not about the food, especially for eating disorders. orders and nothing to do with food at all.

The mental illness is that to do with control and safety and all these other aspects. So I think it's finding purpose and fulfillment outside of what the food is providing you. And that's not to say, I think even people will work on their food, a relation with food is this isn't something you need to rid yourself of is you're not defective. Yeah. You know, it might be that I always refer to it as like the dimming switch. It's turning down that, that in a monologue that's driving you to eat and actually taking

calls and saying, do I need to go for a walk? Do I need to get out the coloring book? Like, do I need to listen to music? Like, can I do something else? All the way. And, you know, if half an hour, you've probably heard of riding the wave, which comes from addiction therapy. So it's this proposal that if you can wait 30 minutes after these initial cravings, if that dissipates, still have it. Again, it's not putting food on a pedestal. What we do a lot within the fitness industries, we put food on pedestal. We give it morality, good, bad, right, wrong. All of these words reinforce what we should and shouldn't be doing instead of thinking about what do we actually need? What brings me pleasure? You know, and we've become so attuned with,

I referred to it as outer wisdom. So the focal point has become reading labels on packets. It's been counting your macros. It's been really strenuous about how much protein you're taking. It's been less about how do I feel? Like, when am I full? How am I full? How am I, chewing my food. Am I constantly distracted when I'm eating? You know, do I have moments away where I'm actually looking at the different colours on my plate, enjoying the taste, the texture, all these kind of things? Do I actually know how hungry I'm going into the meals? How thought I feel after them? And we've become so disembodied because that's just the state of living for a lot of people. Is this active embodiment actually getting in tune with the inner wisdom

is what we lose touch with. So I think, especially within fitness, is so many people become so focused on the outer wisdom, they then rely on gamifying their health and living life. Oh, well, my fitness pal says I've got this many calories left today. My will have said I got this amount of air asleep. Yeah, yeah. I've got to have, oh, I've had my 33 grams instead of my 35 grams protein for lunch. What am I going to do about it? And again, it's just disembodied confusion, mass cognitive capacity taken up elsewhere.

Instead of, you know, that's got protein in it. It's got some color in it, and I've ticked my veggies boxes, and, you know, that makes me feel quite insatiated. And still, you know, if a fancy bit of cake at the weekend, I can have that. And it's more aligning that inner and outer wisdom. I see it. I like to think of the idea of, like, people say, how do I stop emotional, how do I stop emotion, emotional eating?

And I say, well, if you want to stop emotionally eating, you have to get rid of emotions, and why would you want to get rid of emotions? Have you seen the film, equilibrium? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that movie. And that's essentially what it is, is, you know, to be emotional is to be human. You just, you know, stick a shot in your arm that just kills all your emotion. Yeah, that's going to help you with your emotional eating.

But there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It's just, and I think when people monitor their progress, it's relative to them. Yeah. So like with binge eating, for example, it's always marketed as like eight-week program and then rid yourself for binge eating. And it's, well, no, if you're binge eating seven days a week and actually eight weeks down the line, you're doing it four days a week, that progress is relative to you. And you might occasionally binge even in 10 years time, but the key thing is that it's a relative improvement to you.

So I think that's where conversation around self-compassion comes in and we treat all these aspects of ourselves as they're defective, something we need to rid ourselves of, that further amplifiers or that emotional about eating instead of what's this telling me, why was this safety behaviour developed at some point and actually served the purpose? When I was a highly insecure kid, worried about what the world thought of me and worried about maintaining a certain image is that food was safety. It was controllable. It provided comfort. It helped me escape the pain of how I was feeling.

15 years ago, if you ask me, that was just like, I'm not that person. It's disgusting. And you know, you have these really cruel thoughts about yourself. You talk to yourself in a way which you never talk to anyone else. so I think the more objective view is the self-compassionate view is in that's no longer serving me now but it was there for good reason how can I improve that over time self-compassion

do you think self-compassion is like tied in with ownership but not but getting rid of the shame yeah which isn't a small feat because shame is so deep So I like to think of compassion is more the objective view. So sometimes we use empathy to describe compassion, whereas I think being empathetic is probably what people associate with compassion, which is the letting yourself off the hook, if you like. Yes.

I can't be nice to myself or otherwise I won't stop doing this behaviour. I won't change my behaviour. Yeah. Or, you know, I don't feel like it's, oh, maybe I just don't need to. But the compassion that's nice, the more objective view is, You're a bit tired because you had a late night, but actually you probably could do that. So I see the compassion is just more the objective view, the more rational understanding of why those things are there. So in relation to that, this served the purpose in the past is I don't need to keep beating myself up about that.

I can recognise it no longer serves me now, but I still want to embrace that part of me because we have many parts of me. You know, we all change through various stages of our lives. And I need to understand where that came from, understand what's cropping up. And I think this is where emotional granularity comes into it, because you can pinpoint those things. But why do I want to be emotionally? What has happened around me? As someone commented on my body,

like, am I feeling a bit lonely? Am I feeling a bit insecure? That person humiliating me or trying to humiliating me, making me feel really disrespected, is that what's bringing about these things? I think when we get this awareness of what feelings bring about, what behaviours or drives, is we can encourage a bit more pause around them,

work through them rationally. and that's again when we can diversify that toolbox and okay like I know food right now is going to make me feel more connected also I walk with a friend or my partner that's going to give me the same feeling and you know perhaps one time it is you know half a pack of jaffa cakes or whatever it is but also as probably that's not every single time it's not really an issue you know the emotion eating isn't the issue is actually what is this resolving at this time loneliness and connection with a human so I'm going to eat. That's what I've always done. But I've got a significant other now. I've got a really close-knit group of friends. Can I go for a drink with them? You know,

and thinking about this, again, more objectively. That makes sense. It's very difficult to be objective and rational to yourself, that wasn't it? Because we're such emotional beings. Yeah, it is. And I think no matter how self-aware, we all think we are, we all have blind spots. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's where, you know, honest, vulnerable conversations. is coming with not everyone because you can't trust everyone. People say insensitive shit all the time, but people you really value in your life. So having a conversation about how you feel what you've noticed about yourself,

the behaviours you've got into. And again, something that's quite airy-fairy, or marketed as airy-fairies, you know, journaling. Explore this stuff yourself. Something incredibly powerful about writing it in your own hand, in your own words. So you're filtering through the jargon in your own mind. you're writing you down in a language that you understand.

And then you're reading it back. And then again, it's just another point of reflection, I think, but something that helps you verbalise it with someone else. Because we, as I said, we do have blind spots is if I,

my wife never said anything to me. I had one friend when I was competing, who asked me one day, and this was, I guess, one of the other significant moments is, does this stuff make you happy? And at that moment,

I'm blind to it. I was like, of course it makes me happy. Like, It's going to help me with my career, is going to help me professionally, you know. And that really made me pause for thought.

But that was the impartial party because you're too close to the page sometimes. And, you know, I took that at that time as true care because I've been friends with him since I was 11. I've been friends with most of my life. So for him to say that, I know that,

and he's not massive communicator either. So for him to say that, I kind of took it as a big deal. But, yeah, asking yourself, and they're difficult. well. No one wants to rustle around in the darkest depths of their brain because it's uncomfortable. You know, sometimes having uncomfortable conversations with yourself and being honest, like, am I letting myself off at the moment? Am I working hard enough? You know, all of these questions

about, you know, is this just a safe escape now? If I've been in competitive bodybuilding and, you know, want to be a crossfitter all of a sudden is, am I just ignoring the actual the work I need to? And I think a lot of people do that in their fat loss cycles is that they're in this, you know, you and I both know the individuals that are constantly on a diet. They're either on it or off it. What you'd like to say to them is, let's take a step away from focusing on fat loss. Let's focus on your thinking about yourself, your mindset around this, your thoughts, feelings, behaviours. Let's focus on your relationship with food. Let's focus on your relationship with body. Understand where all these messages came from. The result of that probably will be fat loss, but that's not the focal point.

And then they're better positions that go into fat loss anyway. But it's that hard sell of you have to go 10 steps back before you go two steps forward. And sometimes just take another five steps back. Yeah. You know, where you're not promising an outcome, which is why fat loss programs and packages are so successful. Yeah, I think them little simple but effective questions that we just don't ask ourselves. Like you just stop and have that aha moment. And I know from journaling myself, like I only started journaling over the last three years, I'd say.

And like the profound impact that's had on me. And it's what I get all my clients to do before they even start any kind of journey. Just simple journal prompts that you would never be thinking about or asking yourself on a day-to-day basis as you're doing the thing. Huge impact. I've only two more questions for you because I am conscious of your time. First question is, what's one thing you wish? you knew earlier in life. We'll be on the spot there.

Yeah. We're all a work in progress. I think that comes back to being a kid and you look up to adults as these fully actualised beings just imparting wisdom on the world. Whereas as a parent now, I'm like, I can't look after myself and I've got other children. I'm winging this. I think having that understanding and that compassionate view that we're all learning, we're

progressing over time, we're all evolving, would have put, I would have put less pressure on myself to aspire to impress people. I thought that might have been the finished product. I would probably have a better answer if you gave me some more time, but just on the spot. It makes perfect sense because I can even see it in myself as where like, even throughout my career and stuff like that, I would put people on a pedestal and where I'm thinking that, you know, I'm absolutely winging this. and then like I'm a few years ahead of where it would be

and then I still think, you know, I'm still winging this. And then I think you'll probably feel like that for the rest of your life. But it's nice, it's a comforting message to know that so is everybody else. Yeah, it's a unified shared experience. And I think it also adds humility as well. I would rather personally, I was talking to someone about imposter syndrome yesterday, and I was saying about how it's entirely unhelpful. And actually, I think imposter syndrome can be helpful because I'd rather be on the air of insecure side,

always wanting to further myself, being prepared, being conscientious, caring enough to go to the links you do go to imposter syndrome side of things, than the Dunning Kruger, delusional confidence. I know everything kind of person that's not willing to learn. Like I'd rather just recognize that I'm not the finished product. There are many people that are more knowledgeable than me. There's many, there's everyone I can learn something from.

That humility keeps me grounded. And that keeps me wanting to strive for more. I never want to think I'm above anyone else or I'm the Finnish product because I know that's not true. So I think in some instances, things like imposter syndrome, we always talk about them as a negative. But, you know, sometimes,

we are impostors, but the only way not to be an imposter is to get better at something and you need to prepare and everything else that entails. And yeah, keeping us, keeping ourselves humble, I think is something we can all do. And we talked about body image, especially men's body image. The second question that I wanted to ask you for any of the young men listening would be, what advice would you have for young men who are struggling in society at the moment? Seek out a circle of support because this it's scary that this has grown so exponentially over the recent years but with that I'm more voices that are willing to talk about it and there is much more support out there than if you look for it

I think when I first started struggling in my body image I couldn't have even gone to a PET to just talk about it let alone a friend there was obviously no social media back I'm making myself sound ancient but I existed pre-social media so there's nothing like that. So I think with the access that we have to things now is, you know, seek out people that can support you. There are men's services out there that do talk about these things a little bit more, but ultimately there's more support out there. So seek out that support. Seek out the people that are talking openly and honestly about these things because truthfully speaking, it's an epidemic that women have experienced forever. I'm not taking that away from women at all. And men,

are now getting their dose of it, you know, relative to what women have experienced. So women have experienced it for much longer, but I'd actually say in terms of objectify men and how men are portrayed in the media and, you know, again, what we applaud and we look at with curiosity is in equal measure now. Last question I have for you. If people wanted to reach out for you, maybe to ask you a question, maybe to work with you, where can they find your work? The best place is probably Instagram at the moment or my personal email,

Dan ataceperformance.com.com.com. I can't even remember it. What is my Instagram? Don't worry. I'm going to have it on the show notes anyway. Oh, there it is. The. Dan.

Dot, Osman. I really didn't think that one out. But I thought, you know, it does exactly what it says on the tin. I'm on LinkedIn too. I don't use Facebook. But those are probably the best place to find me. I've got my own podcast.

Dan Osmond's Ramblings of a Madman. again, does exactly what it says on the tin, mailing list. What else have I got? And a blog out there somewhere on Substack. You're on Substack as well, yeah? I should write this stuff down or at least try and memorize it properly. Well, I would highly recommend getting on your list. Also, my skill set is not self-promotion.

Well, I'll promote for you. So I would highly recommend your email list to which I enjoy reading your daily emails. their top quality. So hopefully we can do this again in the future and go through. Oh, yes, please, man. You're a true, Jen. I appreciate the invite.

Thank you for having me. Dan, thanks for your time. Thanks for watching. If you like that episode and you want to see more content like this, make sure you're subscribed and I'll see you on the next one.