The Uneducated PT Podcast - #48 Cady Walker - Counselling & Psychotherapy

Episode Date: September 10, 2024

In this episode of the Uneducated PT Podcast we speak to qualified Psychotherapist Cady Walker. Cady runs a therapy centre that specialises in suicide intervention, self hard, trauma, depression, self harm, sexual abuse, stress bereavement, eating disorders body image and much more. Expect to learn about what trauma-informed therapy is, how do you assess the immediate risk of suicide, and what steps do you take following this, what are the most common challenges couples bring to counselling and much more.

Hello and welcome to the uneducated PT podcast with me, your host, Carlo Rourke. The goal of this podcast is to bring on interest and knowledgeable people from all walks of life, learn a little something from each conversation and for you, the listener, just learn something from each episode. So don't forget to subscribe to the channel, press the box below, show some support, and I'll see you on the next episode. Katie, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me.

First and foremost, can you just tell the listeners a little bit about what you do? Yeah, so I'm a psychotherapist. Basically, what that means is I work with. with couples, individuals in therapy to work on numerous different things. It could be any kind of symptom that's coming up for someone in the mental health area.

So you wouldn't know what's walking through your door. And it could be short therapy, it could be long-term therapy, just depending on the client basically. And what inspired you to pursue this as a career path? Yeah, I mean, that's kind of, they call it the wounded healer role. So I think most therapists,

have been on their own journey in terms of something that's happened to them that they've kind of needed to go off and find their own inner piece, I suppose, with their own mental health, and then they go off and say, oh, actually, I want to go and train in it now. Now, the only thing with me is that it's a bit different. When you do your training, you have to do personal therapy. It's part of the course, and you have to do 120 hours of one-to-one therapy. And the first time I actually went to a therapist was when I started my degree, which is a bit more unique. but I think it was maybe my way of doing that journey for myself

but also then being able to support the people in it because you know you have to work through everything yourself so that you can be there for someone because you can't get triggered with someone else's stuff you know I can't start crying halfway through a session and be like let me tell you about my situation yeah yeah yeah so that kind of started me on that journey in my late 20s and I've no look back you know I absolutely love it I was just thinking there, that would be hilarious that the therapist do just doesn't stop talking about themselves during someone else's therapy sessions. Do you know what?

Like, therapy actually isn't regulated at the moment. So it's still an unregulated thing. It's like the fitness industry. You can get anyone kind of saying that there. So Coro are trying to come in and change that, obviously. But, yeah, so there are ways of a person if they're reaching out for therapy to know that their therapist has a certain qualification behind them. It's kind of, we call them accrediting bodies. So everyone that is qualified to a standard would attach themselves to something like that.

But yeah, you could get a therapist because I've heard some stories. I would imagine. They're not ideal like therapists falling asleep or therapists, yeah, divulging probably a little bit too much about their personal life. That's not so helpful. So how did you end up in bray of all places? Bray of all places. Well, I've been in Ireland.

Obviously, I'm not from Ireland. Where are you from for the people who'd listen to? So I'm from Worcester, originally in the UK. So Worcestershire sauce is always where everyone knows it from. Or they can't pronounce it either way. I've been in Ireland for about 11 years now. And do you know what? It was just such a pull to Bray.

I couldn't tell you what it was about it. It's just a really special place. I know that sounds really stupid. and I'm not hugely spiritual or anything so I wouldn't be really someone that's like all the energy or anything like that but you know I have Mind which is in Bray

the therapy centre and when I saw that building I just knew I just knew that was the space and anyone that comes in they always just say oh this feels really right and yeah I can't really explain that because that's you know on a different level how long has mind being up and running and tell people a little bit about that

yeah so we've been running now for 18 months will be two years in November. So my whole experience, and I'm going to overgeneralize here, of being in therapy centres, is they're kind of like down alleyways or above buildings, talked away, they're a little bit run down.

There's this kind of like hiddenness about them, which I think just kind of feeds into shame. And that's not something that I wanted. And then when I was working with clients, one thing that kept coming in was this part, of I want somewhere to go that I can work on the physical side of me as well. So whether that's like yoga, Pilates, meditation, mindfulness, which is an add-on to therapy, but very different.

And I didn't know where to send people. Because you want to be able to trust people that you're, you know, if someone's in a crisis, you don't want to be sending them someone you don't know. Or five different people. Exactly. So I wanted to create a place that, first of all, was seen and secondly, had a. everything there. So, you know, we have therapists, but we also have coaches and then we also have the body side of it. And even to mum and baby, because, you know, that's a really

tough time for a lot of people. So we have, you know, whether it's the baby massage or the yoga prenatal, or then we have workshops that go on as well. So these workshops can kind of pop up. We had like a metressence one the other day, which is for anyone that doesn't know, that kind afterpiece after you've given birth, you know, the whole journey of becoming a mother. And then we have workshops on completely different things. It could be something to do with just relaxation. I do a few myself as well. So it could be something to do with self-talk, you know, those type of topics.

Yeah. Just on the actual build and that's a really good point that, like, that's something that I've noticed is that most of them kind of facilities are kind of tucked away. Do you think that's subconsciously, is that a subconscious thing that people do when they're creating them sorts of businesses or? I mean, I could take a logical route and say probably as a space above shops is probably ideal to rent. Do you know what I mean? Just to say like, oh, we can use that space. You know, as a therapy center, you don't need a retail because you don't need a front.

You know, it's not necessarily something you would be looking for. So it's cost efficient. Yeah. So there is that aspect of it. but also when the therapy centres do exist, you know, there's these like tiny plaques on the side that's like buzz for therapy centre. You know, why not put it across the whole window?

Yeah, and that's a really good point as well because if someone feels like, if someone feels like they should be expected to feel ashamed or judged going into therapy and they have something to hide and you're kind of encouraging that by making it so out of the way. Yeah. And look, it's a hard one to navigate because there is still stigma there.

You know, when I talk about our mission statement, it is to remove stigma to go into therapy. You know, make it accessible for all so everyone can kind of come together in that. And that's why I wanted that holistic. And I use that word in a wholeness perspective of supporting people, community and everything else in between. But I think us, we're the people that can start changing that narrative in terms of, you should go to therapy. Everyone should go to therapy. You know, in France, it's like, what, you don't have a therapist?

You know, who's just like an analysis? Like, what? That's fabulous. Like, in the States, they're so like, you know, I'm just going to go to the gym, then I've got my therapy, and then I'll meet you after for a drink. Yeah. You know, it's just such a difference. Why do you think it's so forward thinking in places like France and the States

and not yet here in Ireland and maybe the UK? Maybe from a historical perspective, I think there's a few things, religion maybe. You know, we have to also acknowledge that religion was our therapy for a really long time. And it still is as well, there's still a place for that. But just less people are going to church and less people are. Exactly. And also, like, so for example, in, I think it's in Germany, you know, a lot of priests are trained as therapists. whereas, you know, priests aren't trained as therapists here. They obviously have empathy, compassion and everything that's needed,

but from an actual research, you know, tools, techniques, perspectives, they don't have that. So they can only take someone so far. But look, you know, I think faith is a great thing as well. I think we'll umbrella it as spirituality in terms of everyone has their kind of spirituality, whatever it is. I'm always careful with that because I think

blind faith's great. I don't have it, but I'd love it. And yeah, so I think that's a bit of it. I think there is still shame around it and what I have noticed

which I think is lovely, older people are starting to reach out for therapy. So there's definitely a shift there. Because they would be the last last ones, yeah, yeah. And men.

Yeah. So that's another shift. So we do see a lot more men. coming to therapy yeah do you have is there would you have percentages would it still be like more than 60 70% female to

or yeah I'd say 60 honestly it's really shifting on the male female front and then I think what's also interesting is people training as therapists it was predominantly a women's field which is really

ironic because when you go to study, you know, you start with Freud. He was a man. And then most of the psychotherapists and analysts that come past him are also men. Yeah. And then, Freud. Yeah, exactly. So then I don't know where the disconnect was that suddenly women, obviously naturally

women have this kind of mothering side to them. So there isn't that part. Do you think that's been a huge problem for men's mental health? Obviously, I wanted to touch on them, but I might as well touch on it now. do you think that it's an it's an issue I want to say an issue but do you think that it's needed to have more men therapists to speak to men because it might be a little bit easier

or they're able to I want to choose my word to have because they just it makes it maybe easier to just have them conversations sometimes I would say that when you initially reach out to look for a therapist. So in mind, what would happen is you can go on and look at someone's profile. It's quite tricky.

You're looking at a picture and you're looking at a few words on a page and you're trying to connect with this person. You know, is this person for me? So I tend to try and do a matching service. So I try and find out what they want to work on. What's going on for them? Who's this person? and then I can kind of know a therapist that I might think would work for them. But I always say, first session, you are there as a client, a paying client bear in mind,

this is a service you're paying for. That might not be your person. And that's absolutely fine. Some people will come, a female might come and say, I only want to work with a female. A male might come, I only want to work with a female. Or it might be vice versa. It really just depends on what I think is going on for the person, on their experience. You know, maybe if you come from a household where there's a lot of male violence, you might not want to go to a male therapist.

Yeah, that could be something that's quite alarming for you. So we have to look at it from that perspective. But then also, I think the narrative needs to change for men going to therapy. There's something around women tend to be able to say, I need support. I'm going to go and reach out for it. meant him to have more of a my issues aren't bad enough yeah I'll wait till

I'll wait till it's extreme before yeah or I can just I'll get by or it's just a blip or you know and again something that I'm always preaching is like it's not about crisis intervention all the time it's about maintenance yeah you know the best time to go to therapy is when you're not in a crisis

yeah it's the same with the gym like it's better it's better to go to the gym when you are in shape and stay in shape then to wait until you're completely out of shape and then have to go and everything's 10 times more difficult. Exactly, because then you're spending your whole time, you know, doing maybe as an injury

or weight gain, whatever it is, trying to bring you back to kind of a state where then you can start that journey. And it's the same with your mental health. It's like, right, get out of the crisis and then when you're out of the crisis, it's like, okay, now how can we give you the tools so that if a crisis comes up in the future,

you can get through it. Do you think they should introduce it at a school level? Yeah, I think there should be something in the curriculum in terms of looking at mental health. And, you know, it's a little bit about if someone goes to therapy and you look up to them, maybe you would also feel that you can do that. You know, I definitely have a lot of parents that will reach out and say, oh, you know, my child is going through something. I really want them to get support. And maybe under the age of 14, that's something that a parent can come.

kind of sway. But realistically, 14 to 18, you know, that child has quite a lot of autonomy over themselves. Yeah. So if they don't want to go, they don't want to go. Yeah, yeah. You know, it has to be their choice in the matter. But if they aren't given any role model that is, you know, showing that. And if it is their choice, they're going to be more open-minded ones that are there. Completely. You know, I think there's a good amount of sports professionals that have kind of switched into becoming psychotherapists and you know those are the people that when they talk you you can see them you know and they're all they're normal you know the men in that are normally working with 12 to 18 year olds because it is that place where they can reach them oh I'm a professional

sports person this happened to me I didn't cope I went to therapy I'm now okay I'm also now a psychotherapist would you like to come to me you know when we're wanting to go to therapy, we're looking for safety. Yeah. So we're looking for, you know, people might choose someone that looks a bit like them. Or looks a bit like their mom. Or there's a word they're looking for. You know, we want familiarity because it's safe.

That makes sense. What are some of the challenges that you're facing right now in your career? Oh. Challenges in terms of... Maybe from a societal level, maybe from a societal level, maybe from a, business standpoint? Okay, so business standpoint, you know, I think mine's really grown organically

and I'm really proud of that. We have a very close-knit team and something as a therapist, it can be very lonely trade. Yeah. As I said, you're not going to start opening up to a client, are you about what's going on for you?

Yeah. So you might be talking all the time with someone all the time. Well, this was one of my, this was going to be one of my questions that I'm lying that. How do therapists essentially, you know, because I would presume that they take a lot of their work home with them. Yeah, which, like, you know, we're taught to not do that.

And also we have supervision. So you have to go to supervision. Okay. Yeah. So it's part of be the therapist. And a lot of therapists would be in personal therapy as well. So you kind of have this mixture. So personal therapy is for your personal stuff, obviously.

Yeah. So, for example, say I go in with a client, a client brings something that really triggers something in me that's personal. I take that to personal supervision personal therapy to work through supervision is more you know I have a client with complex PTSD you know so I'm thinking about

this is maybe where I'm going to take it or that's where I'm going to take it and we kind of hash that out you're not giving details in terms of the person or anything like that and that's always in your contract as well so people are aware of that obviously when they're starting but that's what we call safeguarding we have safeguarding in place like you're working with people's mental health at the end of the day.

You know, you need safety. It's, you know, number one within the room. Yeah, I would imagine taking on all them problems all day, every day, is going to build up if you have nowhere to release that. Yeah, and I think you have to like switch that narrative a little bit for yourself as well. Like I, so we call it compassion fatigue. Okay. compassion fatigue and not just therapists it's very much in the care industry is something when you basically start to take on the trauma of someone else so in our profession we're taught a lot about this kind of stuff but say someone that works in a nursing home or maybe a school system when you're dealing with special needs you know that is so full on all the time the compassion fatigue is when you're like don't stop

thinking about it. It's in your dreams. You're exhausted. You can't switch off. You're getting burnout. This is when it's dangerous. And you can't be good for that person. No. And so burnout is high within therapists. And so, you know, we talk about your client caseload. You're not going to have like 15 people that are in like complex cases. You kind of need to have, you know, a bit of a sway of different things that are going on so you can manage all of that. And this is something that's taught. It needs to be taught more and trauma is something that for some strange reason isn't hugely in the curriculum sometimes but a lot of therapists will go off and do their own training in it because you can do diplomas or whatever that um i was going to go into different kind of topics and stuff like that

so trauma informed therapy is something that you've studied recently yeah and that's something that's not studied widely with therapists yeah so it's not in the curriculum so we have core training yeah so your core training will be uh four years part time maybe three years full time that's your degree or masters if you have a degree before however you go about it and most people train as integrative what that means is you look at all modalities so I did integrative training

so I will be CBT humanistic psychoanalysis psychodynamic and you kind of look at a few different ones there's narrative therapy there's about 450 therapies out there by the way someone's always popping up a new therapy

but those are the yeah you know the greats that you talk about Carl Jung Freud you know their person centres they come down on them topics yeah Rigerian way that's like kind of a core kind of place that everyone goes to

because person's centered is about like giving empathy and they have the core conditions and it's like well you can't really be a therapist if you're not giving those so you have to have that then when people do that they kind of go off into the therapy world and they start working with clients and a lot of the time what happens is you kind of

start to like a topic and then people go and specialize in that so they go off and either do kind of diplomas or whatever it is. So trauma is something that is, I suppose, something that we're talking about is a bit of a buzzy word, we'll call it. Can you explain, can you explain if that's possible what trauma is then?

Yeah, okay, so you have two times of trauma. You have something that is like PTSD. So PTSD is, say, you were in a car crash. It's a one soft trauma. Yeah. And from that, you have got PTSD. So you're scared of getting in a car. You're worried you're going to be in a car crash again.

That's that type of trauma. Trauma can be, it's always something that's done to you. You know, so people are in war zones, obviously at the moment. That's, you know, a trauma. And then we have developmental trauma. So developmental trauma would be generally within the family. So we're looking at abuse, neglect. And that's, you know, when our brains are actually developing.

So does this generally happen in childhood? Yeah, it always happens in childhood. Yeah, developmental does because it's, our brains are developing. So our brains generally are developing up until 20s. They kind of say, you know,

18, we're an adult, but realistically it's about 23. Don't explain for a lot for me. And the impacts then on that. And now we can kind of class that as complex PTSD. Generally is more, more of a

developmental trauma opposed to a one-off event so would people who have the developmental trauma would a lot of time would they not realize that they have that trauma? Of course they wouldn't know

they just know it's kind of hard to survive in life yeah yeah they kind of up it all the time up against it it would kind of be yeah that feeling so is that what a lot of kind of trauma and foreign therapy is also helping them to figure out what that trauma is Yeah, and it's about safety again.

So trauma-informed therapy is about also working with the central nervous system because that's where trauma is stored. So we call it the window of tolerance. So imagine you've got a window. And we're all skating a long life in the middle. And we go up and down. So we go up into hyperarousal, which is your kind of anxiety, heart racing, a bit of adrenaline's going, cortisol, everything else. And then you come back down again.

And then you're in your kind of middle ground. Then you can go down into hypo, which is more of your depressive states. You're feeling low, can't get out of bed, that kind of thing. Now those are on the kind of ends of the spectrum. So we kind of dip and dive all the time throughout life. But someone that maybe has been in trauma for a while would maybe be one side or the other side. So their ability to be in the window is harder. And then that's when we talk about resilience.

You know, resilience is the fact of the ability to get back to the middle. So that's our nervous system And we act off each of Of each of those nervous systems So that's part of therapy as well It's about you giving someone A place to regulate with you Co-regulation

So how do you help someone To create that resilience Well first of all you're looking at a narrative So you know There's the old school way of looking at trauma Was we're going to relive it all Okay So we go into all of your past

And look at it. And for some people, that's exactly what they want to do. You know, they want the nitty gritty of everything that went on to really understand it, feel it, be with it again, whatever that might be. Newer research says, we don't actually have to do that. It can just be as much as knowing it happened, feeling that it happened, who don't necessarily need to talk about it. So it might be something about, you know, talking in the present about what's been impacted, knowing the past. But we don't necessarily need to go into the past. and so by then just connecting awareness is the biggest piece

once we have awareness we have a choice you know and with a choice we can start to change so that's no so what about let's say then okay so what about the first trauma the one where it's actually a distinct accident that happens let's use the car crash example again and then they're afraid to get back in a car and we know that this is impacting their overall quality of life

how do you go about helping that person to get over that trauma? So actually CBT can be very good in those kind of places because CBT is shifting the narrative. So it's looking at the fact of, okay, if I step into this car, what is actually the facts on me being in another car crash? You know, we're looking at kind of facts opposed to irrational beliefs,

which is kind of where you can be. Another thing is, as I said, There are lots of therapies out there. So one is EMDR, which is an eye movement, rapid movement. And basically what that does is, you know, when we go into talking about a trauma, our bodies can't decipher the difference between the trauma and talking about it. Yeah, so even though you might have been in one car crash, you could relive it every day if you're talking about it every day.

And it feels just as real. Yeah, your body can't distinguish the difference. The brain sends exactly the same signals to say this is going on. So can you imagine on a daily basis that anxiety, however, it's manifesting in your body, whereas EMDR as a therapy, can basically, it kind of short circuits that part for you to be able to go into the narrative without reliving it, kind of heal it, and then come back out almost. Do you have clients who, okay, you've created. awareness around going back to the second trauma that you've created there awareness

around what it was but then they still can't move forward yeah I mean sometimes you have really long-term clients yeah you're talking years yeah you know and that's just what it is and that's okay and you call it rupture and repair okay you know you're looking at the rupture and we're repairing it rupture repair and why is it that some people are more resilient to they understand it they move on

versus other people stay submerged in it to a degree? This is a bit of a nature nurture debate you know but if you want to look at both of those sides there's a psychotherapist

Philippa Perry so I can't say this is my theory but you know she puts it very well some people are born dandelions they can grow anywhere they don't need any particular water, sun to thrive, a lot of stuff can be hit at them and they'll still kind of be going. And some people are born orchids. And they just need a very specific climate to survive.

And we have to acknowledge that that we're different. You know, when someone says, I've got three kids and they're all completely different, you know, sometimes we're just born different. And then obviously the nurture piece comes in in terms of what actually happened then in your childhood. You know, was there a bereavement? it's not that it's the parents full, but maybe they're a bit more disconnected at some point

because they lost a parent. How could they not be disconnected? There's never any judgment there in the story finding, but it's important to acknowledge it so that you can then understand how you're operating. That may as sense with the nature of nurture because then you can even have someone who has had the most horrific of circumstances when they're younger,

but they seem to be doing really well in life, whereas someone else may have had more of a cushioned. she life to and can't move past a certain thing. And I know obviously you shouldn't compare one person's trauma to another person's trauma, but that would make sense in terms of the nature part. Yeah. And then, I mean, in terms of resilience as well, if you've had nothing ever happen, you just don't have a capacity for it because you just wouldn't understand it.

Yeah, you haven't used that muscle. Yeah, exactly. And that's all to do with your nervous system. You know, your nervous system's just so used to this. Yeah. So anything that's going to come and attack it, It's just so dysregulating for the person. Whereas someone else has just really had that up and downs.

They're like, oh no, I can bring it back. I'm able to do that. Like, I've had everything drawn at me at life. It means absolutely nothing. Yeah, yeah. What's the link between substance abuse and trauma? Okay. So trauma in terms of the feelings, it's such a overwhelming feeling.

you know, when we talk about it in terms of like, say, war veterans that are coming back from war and they're stuck in PTSD and they're just not getting any help whatsoever. Can you imagine waking up every single morning feeling, as I said, as if you're reliving the same experience as you were at war and those flashbacks that are happening? There's no safety for you whatsoever. So what do you want to do? You want to escape it. What's the best way to escape something? It's to numb it. How can we numb it?

substance. Whether it's drugs or alcohol, whether it's sex addiction. We're talking any addiction. Anything that will literally take you out of that, dissociate from the event. You know, it's just so overwhelming. Of course you can understand why anyone would want to do that.

And realistically, you know, a lot of people use alcohol in their teens to get through it. I am not advocating that whatsoever, but you can understand. but you can understand why it happens because it's you know it's something that maybe they stumble upon but then suddenly oh my gosh you know I feel like I maybe you're shy now I have some

you know Dutch courage exactly or you know I'm really overwhelmed by something that's happening at home but now I have a few beers and it disappears you know and then it's kind of a cycle into it because that becomes your crutch you know we all have to have defences to survive, by the way.

If we don't have a defense mechanism, you won't survive life because life is crap sometimes. But we can have healthy defense mechanisms and coping strategies. We'd never judge someone that does that because actually you have to give them a bit of kudos as well to say, you survived life.

You've managed to find something that has created an ability to be in it. But now you're aware that it's becoming an issue. We can now change it. Do you think that people can't, overcome substance abuse unless they find that awareness of why they were actually using it in the first place?

Not necessarily. So again, substance abuse is some people can be predisposed. And it's again a bit of a nature nurture debate because okay, say you're born with a genetic disposition to alcoholism and then you grow up in a family where alcohol doesn't really exist. It won't really affect you. Yeah, yeah.

But if you grow up in a family where alcohol is used and you see someone using it to do exactly the same, then that becomes your way. Whereas also if you are born with no genetic disposition, but you're seeing someone do it, you know, we copy. That looks good. That looks like it's numbing something. And this isn't an actual conscious decision, by the way. This is like us just knowing.

A lot of the time we're disconnected from our bodies. so we're not actually realising what's happening but all we know is I feel better when I do that and I don't feel like I'm in so much pain you know that's kind of where suicide comes in a lot of the time because you know suicide is the thing that takes the pain away

well that's what I wanted to obviously one of the topics that I wanted to get in which is so applied suicide intervention skills train what essentially is that what does it look like yeah so look there's lots of actual training out there for anyone that kind of wants to do it and I do think sometimes it could be really important for people to be able to do this yeah but um the training consists of um being able to be aware of it to see it in someone and then if that person actually does come to you being able to put in

place a kind of way of them being safe again it's all about safeguarding yeah a lot of things saying even in terms of the trauma in terms of a suicide intervention in terms of a word that you use a lot of safe emotional safety it's literally at the core of who we are if you feel emotionally safe in yourself you're going to be okay yeah it's when you don't feel like you're safe that's when you use the word safe it's it's basically when you don't trust yourself yeah you know if something's happened to you um say rape you know you don't trust yourself because you don't trust yourself Because a lot of the time, you know, our brain shut down in that situation. Because it's so overwhelming.

So the narrative afterwards is, why didn't I stop it? Why didn't I say something? Why didn't I fight back? And that's when the shame gets in it. And then that's, I don't, I can't trust myself. Was it me? Did I, did I wear something? Did I ask for it?

You know, did they not realize I didn't want it? This is the bit that it just regulates you. So you don't feel safe in your own body. you don't trust yourself. And that's scary. But you can bring it back. You can always bring it back. But yeah, when you're looking at it from a suicide perspective,

you know, it generally is, there's actually kind of like almost this, I don't know, light that you'll see in someone because they're free when they've made that decision. You said to be able to see, in someone and also to know what to do what are you looking out for? So we look at this in two different perspectives

one of them is like just in general say if I saw it in a friend and then we have it in the therapy room if it's in the therapy room when I do an intake with someone now someone can always lie but it's one of my questions self-harm or suicide

I actually think if you weren't going to ask anyone anything in an intake if you're asking that question you would find out so much about someone. Sometimes it can be the first time that someone's even divulged that information to someone. You know, Archie, yeah, no, I did try and take my life once. What is so sorry, just what, what, um, if, if, how, what does it mean to distinguish them

two things? In the therapy, it me, it gives you an insight into that person like that. Yeah. You, you know what you're working with. You know exactly where you are. Yeah. And we're talking active. So we're talking past. Yeah. So would you say then that's, self-harm is a cry out for help? Um, it's, so self-harm, um,

it's in my question with suicide. They're very different. Yeah. Um, self-harm generally is around feeling. Um, so if you are going through something that's so painful, that you're shutting down,

you're going into dissociation. You're not feeling anything. You're numb. Yeah. So numb. And a lot of people will describe the experiences that cut. gives them a sense of relief. They can feel again.

They can feel something, yeah. They're attaching themselves back to themselves. So that's generally where self-harm can kind of come. So it's the overwhelm and then it's the release. So again, it's about bringing people back into a space where they don't have to go into the overwhelm to have to get the release. So, you know, you talk around a lot of steps of when you feel like you're going to do it,

we need to check in, what's happening for me right now? Why am I feeling that I want to do it? that kind of thing. And then with suicide, whether it's present or past, if it's past, it's about, okay, what happened in that person's life, why didn't they, how did it look, what went on, if it's in the present, and I'm working with a client we contract around safety.

And what that looks like is, you know, as long as we're in therapy together, you're not going to try and take your life. If for whatever reason something comes up that you feel that you're in that position, you're going to reach out to me and we're going to walk through. And that would be getting in touch with the next. of kin. So this would be kind of your phases. So that would be putting them in a person of safety. So that's the next of kin. If they don't have a next of kin, it's your GP, your hospital.

And then we're kind of going through the phases of, you know, is medication needed? Maybe you'd up your therapy. So it's not unusual for people to go to therapy twice a week. You know, that's something that you would do on a period and then you'd start to open it back up again. Yeah, and take it from there. So, and then what, the second question then, if you know that someone is suicidal, then let's say as a friend or as a family member, then it's essentially trying to get them into therapy as soon as possible. Yeah. Is there anything else? So you actually, this might seem like it's kind of a bit of a directness, but you kind of have to be.

So if someone said to me, I'm looking to die by suicide. I would have questions and the questions would be along the lines of how are you going to do it? When are you going to do it? Have you got what you need to do it?

And I know that sounds terrifying and you're thinking like someone in the general public will probably just think would never think of asking them questions. Would never think of it because almost you're thinking am I showing them how to me?

Am I helping this person? But what it's telling me is how serious. Yeah, where it is on the scale. Where is it? Yeah. Because I've been thinking about it for six months. I've got the rope.

It's going to be in this place. It's going to be tomorrow night and I've written my letters. Yeah. Okay, we're in crisis. Oh, I'm not sure. I think if I was, it would be, oh, maybe I'd take an overdose. Actually, no, maybe I would do it this way. Yeah.

Okay, we're not quite... But you can get them into therapy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, we're somewhere, but we're not there. And so, as I said, that sounds terrifying. I get that, but that's part of the training. And those questions are actually very important. What other common misconceptions about suicide intervention that you encounter?

In terms of, like, from a therapeutic place, so as in, like, if someone was in therapy and they kind of bought that knowledge to you for the client. for the client as in their misconception of it. Maybe that it gets reported. Maybe it's going to be told to their family. There can be a lot of shame around it. Guilt. Maybe they don't want someone to know.

You know, it's a pure escapism from life. So there can be a lot of fear there as well. Especially if it's, let's say, like, I don't know, a 14-year-old girl or a 15-year-old boy who does want their parents to know what they're... intending to do. Yeah. So how do you approach that?

So in terms of that age bracket, I have to say I think that education, again, is key. Now I have to say, Pieta are very good at this. So they have different school systems in place where they go out to schools and they do information on it. So one of those is educating kids to know that this feeling that they're having can be a feeling and how they can reach out to someone.

Because a lot of the time it's really confusing. especially at that age. Imagine all your hormones anyway. It's the most confusing time, let alone, you know, something on top of it like that. So they might not even realize what is going on

in terms of, yeah. Have you noticed the problems of that generation change with social media? So, again, on my intake form, I now have, when I first qualified, I wouldn't have had this question and now I have screen time.

Can we like we talk about it? And when I'm talking about screen time... Don't ask me by screen time. No, but everyone says this. They say, oh, I'm trying to not be on it as much. And I always say, I actually don't... I'm not looking for the fact that you're on at 10 hours a day. I'm looking at your relationship with it.

So, you know, a lot of kids might be like there's online bullying or they're coming off saying, you know, so-and-so has this, I don't have this. I feel I'm not good enough. I want to be thin. This person's thin. Oh, I'm following this person. and she has this, it's that piece.

And that can be in adults as well, by the way, that's not just teenage kids, you know. Oh, why aren't I on that holiday that someone's on? You know, what have I done wrong? Or, oh, look at that person that's got engaged and I'm single. We're bombarded with a lot. And then on top of that, you have things like the news, which is a completely different side to it.

When we talk about compassion fatigue, you know, if you're reading about the stuff that's going on all the time, there's a piece of you that says, like, I can't do anything. about it. So now I feel guilty that I'm privileged almost. You know, it's such a spectrum of emotions that can be provoked by spending, what, 10 minutes on a social media platform. Yeah, you're not, you're not likely to, especially with the news, you're not likely to get gone to the news and get something positive that's going to make you feel. It never is. Like, you know, it's always some

kind of, yeah, unfortunate story, which is how the news works, but it can really affect someone, say if they're feeling not great. Yeah. What about in terms of, okay, we're looking at social media and comparing other people and all this stuff and then feeling negative about yourself, have you worked in the past, do you work with a lot of girls and boys

who suffer with body image issues and relationship with foods and disorder eating and stuff like that? Yeah, disordered eating is, you know, a big one. Again, eating is generally about, control. So there's something going on in someone's life that they can't control it and then they find another way of controlling it. And also maybe you've seen this in terms of fitness as well. You know, one of the biggest ones that's coming through at the moment is in terms of men and having very fit physiques. Muscle dysmorphia. Yeah, it's huge at the moment. Yeah. So and also healthy eating is another one. It's the fact it's taken to an extreme. Healthy eating. So we see it as such a positive and we can say, oh my, my, gosh, doesn't that. But it's not healthy because they can't actually eat something that's not in this very, very small category of food. That's disorder eating. Yeah. You know, but why are you needing to control something? You know, a lot of fitness professionals will talk about this now

in terms of, you know, I was this weight and I was this muscle mass and everything else and now I'm this, but now I'm happier. Now I'm not feeling this. You know, there's obviously been a shift in terms of what's going on for them to be able to be on that journey to now not have to have that control. So again, it's all a coping mechanism. You know, we're actually so smart as people that we can find these ways, but they're just the dysfunctional ones that don't help us. And you have to tread slowly with that.

You know, in therapy, three sessions aren't going to get you through disordered eating. And as I said, like, people go off and specialize. So you'd have people that specialize in disordered eating. So they would really be able to tackle that. Yeah. But even for like a, someone who's never even thought of before to go into a therapy room and to understand that, okay, it's not really about the field.

It's about, it's about me and it's about control because I feel this way or I don't feel good enough or whatever it is. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I don't think that's, a lot of this stuff is subconscious. Yeah, yeah. But like you said, like the goal is awareness. Oh, completely, yeah. Yeah.

Because once you start to realize that, it's, impacted me. Yeah. Okay, but I'm surviving it. I'm okay. So how can I shift that that I don't have to have such a tight control over it? You know, and when you talk about disorder of eating, there's one way or the other way. You know, anorexia is generally when it's the tightening of it. Yeah. So it's the restriction. And so there's something going on there in terms of I need to restrict all of the goodness in my life because I can't take that nutrition. And then you have the other side where you may be with the bulimia. So then that's the, the, the, the, the, the, Binging.

Yeah. So binging is the numbness. I'm going to eat so much until I literally feel sick. So I can feel and I'm not numb anymore. And now I'm guilty. So what am I going to do? I'm going to purge. You also specialized or studied in couple counsel.

Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. So I work with couples. What are the most common challenges couples come to you with? oh it can be everything and anything if I'm perfectly honest but at the core of it would be communication because infidelity

stresses from work that have impacted you know the breakdown of a marriage say a child's been born and that's you know disregulated the whole thing communication is normally lost they're not communicating with what their needs are within it and so they're almost operating in silos.

How do you help to improve that communication of two people who have lasted over the years without real, isn't it? Yeah, so when you're working with couples, it's different to working with individuals. So if you're working with an individual, the therapy is about the individual. Yeah. When you're working with a couple,

the therapy is about the relationship. Yeah. So with... Different dynamic. Yeah, different dynamic completely. So we're working on the relationship, what is going on in the relationship. So within that is about getting people's stories,

but then understanding what their defences are. So a lot of things that can happen is we're changing the way maybe someone is looking at something. So someone might say, do something along the lines of, you did this the other day, and I'm so angry at you, and you made me feel like this, and this, this, this, it's very critical.

What is the other person going to do? They're going to go straight on the defense. Yeah, yeah, because you're a point in at me. You're pointing at me. You're saying, you did this, you did that. You know, I'm going to shut down. What happens then when someone shuts down? The other one's literally chasing them to try and get in some more.

And that becomes more intense, more intense, more intense. So I'd be like, right, stop that straight away. Let's look at some healthy communication. So the other day when that happened, I felt, not you made me feel. I felt this was going on. taking the criticism away straight away. So the other person now has a chance to say, okay, I'm sorry you felt like that,

but I didn't mean it that way. Opposed to you did that to me. Yeah, you're not trying to win the arguments now. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. What if you had, let's say, a couple or someone who was less, someone was more hesitant to engage in couples therapy than the other partner? Yeah, I mean, look, straight off the bat, I'd have to say,

are you both here? because if you're not both here to work, I can't work with you. Presumly one has probably dragged to the other there. A lot of time one person reaches out for sure. The woman probably. And then the other one comes along. But honestly, once you get people in the room,

you can normally tell. Again, it's a little bit around, you know, first of all, am I their therapist? Yeah. Because I work differently to someone else as a couple therapist. You know, we have to acknowledge that. Yeah, does the dynamic

the relationship of the tree way. Yeah, I mean, maybe an older couple might feel uncomfortable with me. Yeah. Maybe they'd be like, oh, you don't have any life experience. Does that happen? It does sometimes, yeah. Sometimes people don't even think about it, you know. It just depends, yeah, on that dynamic.

But I'd be very much, you know, as I said, that first initial session, it would be, if I was noticing that, I'd be naming that straight away. What strategies do you use to help couples rebuild trust? after infidelity. Yeah, so this is a huge one. So infidelity is, I suppose, first of all, how's it impacting the couple in terms of what is their actual want to move forward?

Sometimes infidelity can happen and they want to rebuild. Sometimes one of them doesn't want to rebuild. So that's the first part. Infidelity is an interesting one. Generally it's happened because something within the dynamic is being unmet.

And it blows up the relationship and it can actually be really positive because it can allow you to repair that piece that was not working for so long if you choose to move forward. But you have to forgive in it and there has to be the trust rebuilding. The person that's had the affair

needs to understand they're going to have to reassure the other one. You know, that's your role to kind of take that forward a little bit. You know, take accountability. you know if I'm not seeing accountability I'm going to be you know calling that out straight away well presumably if they're about in the room

looking for therapy or couples counselling in regards to this that's the first sign of that accountability yeah but yeah it is but you might have someone that's had the affair that's trying to repair and the other person's saying no I don't want to actually repair this that person's almost nearly forced in

but yeah exactly so you know, you have to really look at that dynamic. Well, that will be, it's a lot more difficult than for that person who has been cheated on to... There's a lot of pain, yeah. And then we're always taking it back to family of origin. So what I mean by that is looking at your parents' relationship. Because, again... Does that impact?

It's... Yeah, that's... It's life. That's life. Okay, so you're born into the world and then your parents bring you up. And this is a great. This is your attachment style. Yeah.

So your attachment style is from when you're very young. Tell us a little bit about the attachment size. Okay, so attachment styles are you have avoidant, which is generally someone that shuts down. So when things get a bit too tough, they go into their own little corner, they go very quiet, they don't want to deal with it. They're fighting with the wife and your walk out of the house and go down the book.

Yeah, completely. Avoid it at all costs. Then you have your anxious. Follows you to the pub. Yes. And the problem is when you have a couple, that are avoidant and anxious, it's like Tom and Jerry. They're just following each other around and we have to stop that because it's like, okay.

And then you have Secure, which, I don't know, I'm not sure Secure exists if I'm on. Apparently it does though. Yeah, so those are kind of like your three. We also have disorganized. Okay, what's that? Disorganized is a mixture of anxious and avoidant. Okay. That's quite a hard one when someone has that, attach and style.

Again, it's no judgment. It's just about a slight working with it because you're a mixture of the two so you can shut down but then you can become quite needy. So for the other it's like I'm so confused you know, one second you want me

the other second you don't want me like what's going on here and they are created in childhood from what you see from your parents relationship that we have with our parents with our primary caregiver so we'll call them caregivers because people are bought up

by all types of different people and that's absolutely fine and then that goes into adulthood and then generally what happens is we search for someone that is a mirror of our experience so you would never

really find they were avoidant and avoidant together because like they might have one date they're never going to talk to each other ever again kind of thing anxious and anxious they're generally like you know those like couples that go and get married after six months and have a baby and like yeah

yeah that's their Yes, them, because they're so in their own, like... But does that work, like that? It does work, yeah, for sure. Like, everything works. Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, it's not saying that one thing doesn't work or whatever, but you will probably just come across little things, nuances.

That, you know, some people are just so used to over time that they don't even think about it, but maybe when you start to unravel it a bit, they'd be like, oh, yeah, okay, that's something that maybe I should look at. So do you, would you say, if someone was... if someone was cheating do you think that could come from childhood

for numerous reasons even in terms of like avoidance so like cheating let's say it's like a new relationship not like a relationship long term relationship like a new relationship and then you're almost cheating to self-sabotage the relationship

it possibly could be generally I'd say it's like an unmet need within the relationship. Yeah. So maybe, I don't know, maybe sex is something that hasn't happened. Intimacy is an issue. Yeah. So they go outside the relationship to find intimacy.

You know, that's something that's quite common, opposed to having a conversation about the fact of why aren't we being intimate, what is going on. So it's easier almost to go outside because it doesn't have any consequences. Even though it does, it kind of doesn't in a way. So if you, let's say you have a couple in counselling and one is, is avoiding them one is anxious and you have created

awareness or you've created awareness in both of these people that's their attachment style what needs to happen then do they need to both become you know what's the what was the secure in order for the relationship to thrive

no not necessarily in terms of like look there's people out there that thrive completely and are anxious and avoidant they just manage to kind of fumble through life and they're absolutely fine. I suppose it's couples that where they're up against something. And generally that, again, happens when

things happen in life. You know, there's a bereavement. And suddenly the relationship just can't thrive after it. Just can't seem to get back off. You know, you kind of hear these stories where it's like, you know, after my dad died, the relationship just never was the same.

But why should that impact the relationship, you kind of say? Because there's nothing that's happened within the relationship but maybe that person, you know, started to disconnect a bit. So then the other person, especially if they feel anxious, they're going to say, I'm not seen. You don't love me anymore. Oh, my co-workers started talking to me.

Now, I've had a bit of attention. They're now giving me attention. Oh, I'm seen again. Oh, well, this feels nice. And then, oh, over six months, this has developed into something else. Again, if you could have looked at it at the time, you know, infidelity gives you so much information in terms of the dysfunctionality of your relationship, but it would be a lot better if that didn't have to happen for you to understand it. And could you reverse engineer that back to the

communication in the first place? Yeah, I mean, people are afraid to have that communication. Like, what about if I upset the person? What about if conflict happens? Maybe you come from a household that everyone has a smile on their face all the time. You don't want to create conflict. You know, it's scary to you, so you're going to avoid it. You feel vulnerable. Completely, yeah. And that sounds weird because you'd think you'd want to be vulnerable with your partner but actually that's the most important

relationship so it's actually easy to be vulnerable with a stranger sometimes that it is with the person that you care about because you don't want to hurt them. You could say that even in other aspects as well let's say someone's suffering with their mental health it's probably easier to tell someone that is a complete stranger than it is to tell

their brother or their sister or their friend. Yeah completely and I mean that's therapy you know Freud discussed it as like Tablarasa, which is like a blank slate. Like you're coming in and you're literally having a blank slate there. You know, the Clyde doesn't really know anything about you. It's a bit of an odd setup when you actually like drill it down like that.

You know, they're trusting their whole story with someone they've never met. And so, you know, the first few sessions really is about relationship building. And feeling safe to speak. Which is relationship building. Because if it's a safe relationship, you're not. going to want to be able to. Two more questions. All right.

What do you believe? What do you, no, that's, I'll forget that one. What advice would you give to someone considering a career in psychotherapy? Do it. Someone that is. What would you, what would you, what would you want to have, if, let's say you were to do it again, what would you want to have known that you didn't know then? Look at the courses.

There's a lot of courses out there. And I think it's really important to find a very well accredited course that has a lot of support. There's a lot of courses that maybe sell one thing and give another thing. So I definitely say do your research, especially as Kauru is coming in, which means you don't want to go and do a course that now you're not able to practice in because the regulatory body says you have to be at this level. Yeah. So from a very, you know, side of it that says, like, just so you can have your qualification, I'd say do your research in that. What I would say is it's the toughest course you'll ever do in your life. And I'm not saying that to scare anyone.

But they have to literally pull you down to pull you back up again. And I don't think anyone expects that. Did you expect that? No, I did not. You know, you are, you're not going in. It's not like a business course where you can like just scrape through on writing a few essays and knowing your knowledge. You have skills training, you have group supervision,

you have personal therapy, you start with clients in year three. You know, there is so much of an emotional piece to it. And I would tell anyone to do it because honestly, it has made me the person I am today. And I mean that from a perspective of just, having the confidence in life to be able to navigate it on a different level that I would never have had before. And so that's what the course gives you.

Even if you never practiced, I would say most people would say, I loved it. Don't regret it. Yeah. And then the last question, more from a client perspective, especially anyone who might be local in the town, if they wanted to reach out to get help to inquire about therapy, where can they go? What way can they fill out an application form or how does it work? Within mine specifically. Within mine, yeah.

Yeah, okay, so you can go onto the website. So there's a couple of different ways. As I said, you can either look at people's profiles and kind of try to connect in terms of who you think might work for you. And then you can, there's a button there that you can book in and it will give you a form to fill out. It's a very simple form just like details and a little bit of a message. Otherwise, you can go onto the website and there's actually just a generic form, which will come to myself and I'll be out to then talk to the client and be able to match them with someone that I think will work well for them based on a few different things like availability as well

because you don't want to say oh yeah I can make therapy at 12 o'clock on Monday this week but then the following six weeks I can't do that you know then you're not going to you're kind of setting yourself up for that person setting yourself up for failure so these are actually really important thinking about do you want a male or female and what's really important to you you know, what topic are you kind of looking to work on? It could be an array of things, but maybe there's something that's drawing you in to want to start therapy, and it generally is.

So it's kind of, yeah, finding that connection. And then we'll get you set up probably within the week, you know. And would all the consultation funds be, or consultation calls, or are they all in person or can some of them be online? No, so when you reach out in that way, literally that just comes through email. Some people only want to talk by email. So I would always respond by email.

And then at the bottom, say, if you'd prefer a phone call, let me know. So that you have that option. Some people like to talk through WhatsApp. It really doesn't matter. Like the number on the website is, you know, WhatsApp is absolutely fine to reach out as well. Or a phone call. Some people don't want to email. They want a phone call.

They want to talk to that person. It just really does. Exactly. So doing that. And then everyone that's in the centre is in. private practice, which means that they are like their own therapist. So they will have their own intake form. They will go through things.

So just for example, someone might have their health insurance that they want to use. Just always check. Not all therapists are slightly different. So not all healthcare providers cover all therapists because they're all with these different accrediting bodies, which is nothing wrong with that. But healthcare providers don't understand the nuance of therapy. So they just go, oh, I'll pick this accrediting body. and that's the only one we're going to deal with.

So first session or, you know, these are kind of things to think about on top of maybe what you're looking for. And then you'd have your initial session with them. Now, low cost is different, which is obviously something that we've discussed. So anyone that's in maybe a position that they can't pay the full price, they would come into the low cost category. And within that, they'd have to come into an intake with myself, which is in person or online, depending again, on the person's situation.

and we go through some kind of information in that because it is just a slightly different way of working. Yeah, yeah. Well, listen, we'll have all the information on the show notes and again, Katie, I can't thank you enough for your time. I've really been really valuable. No, thanks so much for having me. I've really enjoyed it.

Thanks for watching. If you like that episode and you want to see more content like this, make sure you're subscribed and I'll see you on the next one.