The Uneducated PT Podcast - Ep: 140 Self Harm Panel Talk

Episode Date: February 23, 2026

In this second panel of Higher Conversations Ireland, we focus on one of the most urgent and heartbreaking trends of the last decade: Why are rates of self-harm among teenage girls rising so sharply? Since around 2010, there has been a significant increase in self-harm among young girls in Ireland — a trend that closely tracks the rise of image-based social media platforms such as Instagram, Snapchat, and TikTok. According to the National Suicide Research Foundation (2010–2022): • Self-harm increased significantly among girls aged 10–17 • Girls aged 15–19 had a self-harm rate more than three times higher than boys of the same age This panel explores the cultural, social, and digital pressures shaping the lives of young women today — and what can realistically be done to support them. Topics Discussed: 🔹 Why are so many teenage girls self-harming — and what would actually help reduce it? 🔹 The impact of online harassment, image-based abuse, and reputational attacks 🔹 The findings of the “Behind the Screens” report (2021) 🔹 Body image pressure, disordered eating, and social comparison culture 🔹 How parents can recognise warning signs — and avoid unintentionally making things worse 🔹 What message we would give to a young girl struggling right now This is a serious, honest conversation about social media, youth culture, parental responsibility, and the mental health of the next generation. If you are a parent, educator, policymaker — or a young woman navigating this world — this discussion matters. 🔔 Subscribe to Higher Conversations Ireland for more in-depth panel discussions, interviews, and real conversations about the issues shaping Ireland today. 📢 Join the conversation in the comments and share your thoughts.

All right. Okay, so panel two issues impacting young women. And we're going to have a five minute intro and we're going to start with Katie. Go ahead. Thank you. Hi, everybody. My name's Katie Walker and I am a psychotherapist, but I'm the founder of mind. So Rob touched on it earlier. We partner with Kaha on providing mental health support. People are brave. And I'm going to start just talking about the centre and kind of that part. and then I'll talk a little bit about myself. But when I was practicing as a psychotherapist, one of the things that I kept coming up against was,

obviously I'm a big supporter of talk therapy, but there's a whole body here as well that needs to be included in that. And I didn't know where to send people, whether it was for yoga, whether it's for a workshop. And I said, I need a place that brings it all together, this holistic approach. So that's very much embedded in what mine's all about. We have a workshop down below,

and it was so important for me to have that space because we have the therapy rooms upstairs, but downstairs we have everything from kids yoga to maybe a metrescence workshop, antinatal classes, breath work, and it really combines, I think, the whole holistic approach to mental health, as we say. Now, one of the big things, when you look at the mission for me, would have been around removing that stigma

to reaching out for support for our mental health. Are we there? Probably not. Are we a lot better? Yes. So at least we're going in the right direction. And community was something very much of the core. Obviously, you can tell about my accent. I'm English. I'm not from Ireland.

I've been here a good amount of time, though. But Bray, I couldn't believe the community, actually, when I moved here. They were so welcoming. People just popped into the centre when we first opened. Even all the therapists, we have such a community of therapists now. And it's just really, really nice to see. So obviously it is growing, and that's really nice. nice to be able to say that we are in Bray and we're here and we're helping and obviously,

you know, getting the name out there in terms of the support for the younger generation. In terms of myself, yeah, I'm a psychotherapist. You know, when Carl said, well, you talk on this topic, you're taken straight back to, gosh, what was I like as a teenager? What was going on for me? Where was my mental health? And I suppose I just share a little bit about me and just one part of my story. You know, I'm dyslexic. and in terms of system, my parents and the school were very good about it.

You know, there was a lot of support there. It was, yes, you're dyslexic. This is like, you know, how you can kind of learn to spell and everything. But I still carried the shame. And the shame of being different, the shame of not being able to, you know, I don't mind speaking like this, but if you give me something to read off, the anxiety of am I going to say the right word, how am I going to feel, you know, everything else in between.

And that stayed with me. and I completely flunked school. I didn't go to college because of it. And the narrative then became, I'm not good enough. And you can see how something that really should have been a positive experience just because I felt different

and maybe the emotional education wasn't there in terms of how to have a conversation to say, okay, we're supporting you how to read and write. But what impact does that actually have on a 13, 14, 15 year old girl in a school system where, you know, people are talking about, you need to get this to get there and if you do this you're going to fail blah blah blah

and you know going and doing talk therapy I then went off and did my obviously to become a therapist had to go and do a degree I got a first you know it just really brought home to me I'm not stupid I'm not thick and that's kind of a journey I think people can have in terms of going to therapy and actually realizing because the embeddement of the narrative it's not I'm dyslexic it was I'm stupid and that that's the jump but that's the reality um so I just wanted to share that in terms of that's maybe what we're up against sometimes and you know obviously that's my my story and we're at so thank you five minutes on the board so my name's kirstie dougan and i'm here today because carol forced me to be but also because i feel like i'm

speaking a lot about personal experience unfortunately and i have had so many struggles of my mental health kind of all aspects and spent time in like a private hospital in dublin and from there I did go down kind of all routes. So like the medication route, the talk therapy, and that kind of stopped me. I got to a point with it that I just felt like I couldn't go any further. And I came like I changed career I was in beauty. And I felt like loads of people were coming to me telling me all their problems.

And I didn't know how to help. I was like, okay, I'm making you feel great for an hour for your night out. But you're still feeling like shit. And what can I do? That's more. So I went back and studied personal training because exercise really helped me. and then from there I've recently become a breathwork facilitator. So like when I felt that I got to a certain point with talk therapy,

that it was still stored in my body and I couldn't get it out. Like I felt like that really helped me. So I wanted to do more again. I feel like I'm always going to want to do more. But yeah, I feel like I've been through the system and tried all the methods and all the holistic therapies. So I just think it's important to share that there is more. more than medication. And again, I am on medication and like it's something I've had to

unfortunately go back to recently that I thought I never would. And but I think it's really important to share that again, what they were saying earlier, like that it doesn't have to be your first point of call or can it kind of be maybe a lower dose along with something else or I just think the education isn't out there. So it's really important to have these events to create that space for conversations around it. Hi guys. I'm Kara O'Connor. I'm absolutely shitting myself, by the way. praying my tongue doesn't get stuck to my mouth, but I talk on social media every single day, and for some reason I'm really shit myself right now. But anyways, I'm going to start with a bit

of my background and what I struggled with, and then how I also help women too. So, sorry, my tongue is dealing that thing. Give me a second, guys. Do you want to go? Is there you going to go? Yeah, go ahead. Okay, we'll let her gather herself. It is scary up here. So I'm Stacy. I'm a guidance counselor. I was previously a teacher in my previous life. But I suppose I chose to become a guidance counselor because I needed someone like me when I was in school. So my guidance counselor was absolutely shocking. I feel like you ask anyone what their experience of a guidance counselor was. And they're like, oh, she was ancient and she told me that I was going to do whatever.

So I decided that I needed someone like me now when I was in school. And I said, okay, I want to be that person for myself. So I went and did a degree initially. I was like grand, I'll do geography and archaeology. Don't use that at all in my daily life. And I still didn't know what I wanted for myself. Still were things were like misaligned for myself. So I was like, okay, how do I find something that's more me, more true to me, more authentic to me?

So I started teaching English as a language. I went to Australia. Like Rob said earlier, we were all lost to Australia or you'll become lost to Australia. I didn't fall in love with Australia the way people think they do. I was still, those problems that I was still going through still followed me. They were with me the whole time until I started teaching. And I said I love working with young people. So I became a teacher.

I did a professional masters of education, was a geography and politics teacher, worked across loads of different schools. But I still wasn't like fulfilled. You know, I was still like, okay, I'm meeting young people every day. The best part of my job was when people, would come to me and ask for their help or they'd say they were struggling or they wanted to tell me a story about their weekend or whatever it was. And I said, how can I do that part more? So I spoke to the guidance counselor that in the school that I was working in. I was like,

how do I do what you do? You know, when you meet the young people and, you know, you guide them to where they want to be. And she said, she pointed me in the right direction. So I did a master's a guidance counseling and now I get to work with young women every day. I've worked across three different schools as a guidance counselor in a dash background in mixed schools and boys schools and now I work solely with young women and so out of that then I also decided that I would also do private practice and I'm from a dash background myself I'm from locklandstown so I decided that I would also do like low budget and guidance counseling appointments because guidance counselors are just mainly in schools so what happens if you're a school lever or you dropped out of school but you do want more

for yourself. So I also then developed a little small business called sole purpose so that young people and young adults alike can find their purpose, like you were saying earlier, to find your purpose. So yeah, that's me. Are you ready? Yeah, yeah. I'm glad I got that out of way. Sorry, guys. So my background is I really struggled from the age of 16 with my relationship with food, my body image. I was on the verge of anorexia at the time. And yeah, I just really struggled with toss. that I had about myself, what I seen in the mirror, the belief of I'm not good enough, which we did touch on. And then I swung the other way to a binge eating disorder. And this is where I really struggle with my mental health. I questioned my life. I questioned my

thoughts. I questioned what was real, what wasn't. My body image changed massively. And the guys switched on it earlier and curiously touched on it as well. The antidepressants when I went for help about the binge eating. I knew what I needed. I knew I needed to talk to somebody, but I was offered antidepressants instead. And thankfully, within my own mind, I was strong enough to know that that's actually not what I need. I know I need to talk to somebody. I know I need help with this, but nobody knows how to help me with binge eating. And no one knows how to help me overcome this. And it was obviously COVID times as well. So it was a weird time. And I think I done a phone call, almost like an interview with a psychotherapist

and that was after an hour phone call he had decided that antidepressants was the way for me and again thankfully I was strong enough in my own mind to know that that was definitely not what I needed I did go on to do talk therapy and get the help that I needed to really understand myself, my thoughts, why I struggled the way I did especially and why it manifested into food

and my body image and now here I am six years later and I help women with disorder eating patterns their body image what they see in the mirror and it's a very rewarding job but there just isn't there isn't enough out there for people struggling with their mental health and I think again firsthand for me and again nothing wrong with medication again like Kirsty said but I think being offered that as the first protocol definitely lit a fire inside of me so that's why I'm here today. All right.

Open and statement. So there's a strong statistical and clinical evidence shown a significant rise in self-harm among young girls since around 2010. This closely tracks with the rise of image-based social media platforms like Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok. According to the National Suicide Research

Foundation between 2010 and 2022, self-harm increased significantly among girls age to 10 to 17. The self-harm rate for girls age 15 to 19 was more than three times higher than boys in the same age group. So a question for anyone in the panel who can all kind of jump in and give your thoughts on this. Why are so many teenage girls self-harming and how can we tackle that problem?

I can jump in there. So I meet young women every day that struggle with self-harm. And I suppose like when you have built a relationship with these young people over time, I am very upfront and very honest. I say, what does that do for you? Like, what is it that you're trying to avoid? Or what is it that you are escaping or what is it helping you with? And a lot of the time, it's not an attempt at their own life.

A lot of people think red flags, I've found blades or parents or I've seen scars. And it's generally not an attempt at their own life. A lot of the time, I would say nine times out of ten, it is people wanting to move the sight of pain from their head to somewhere else in their body. So it's like that whole thing of trying to get out of your head and into your body. If you're trying to move the sight of pain from your head into your body, it gives you relief. And we know that self-harm in the 2024 study, I think it is. Self-harm, the main cause of self-harm are the most used method is substance abuse. And I think it's our culture, not to shit on Ireland, but our culture, we have it's so accessible.

So depending obviously on the method of self-harm, people are using different substances to move the sight of pain from their head to somewhere else so that they're not stuck in their head with those same thoughts. That's just my experience of young women. Yeah, I'll jump in there. Yeah, you know, kind of coming in what you're saying there, I completely agree with you. When we talk about self-harm, it generally isn't necessarily linked with suicide at all. It's not an attempt on life. It's that overwhelming, actually, that I want to be able to feel. And that sounds a bit extreme, but it's actually, oh, I can actually come back to my body now.

Oh, I can feel now. There's so much going on, I can't cope with it. But when we're looking at it in terms of what's happening now, and I know social media has been spoken about a little bit tonight, but, you know, we go back to, we're not getting rid of tech. Let's all, yes, let's, let's, let's, yes, why. love it, but it's not happening. You know, we're too deep into the situation.

But how do we manage it? And one of the biggest things is that there is no communication anymore. So one of the things that's happening is, you know, we're talking about the dopamine. Obviously, yeah, between the ages of, say, 13 and mid-20s, your prefrontal cortex isn't where it needs to be. So you want instant reward. And a great way of getting instant rewarders, go on Instagram. I've got some more likes, flicking through, a nice little algorithm.

or you get in everything you want to see, you know, you're just feeling great after that. This is when you're not sleeping well because now, you know, you can't function necessarily on the day to day. You're going into school and it's the fact that there's no switch off of it. So as, you know, there's the picture up there of someone. Do I look like them? I don't look like them. What are they doing?

Or someone said that as a whisper in the back room. Are they talking about this? Are they that? It's a WhatsApp. It's a Snapchat. Everything else. It's the constant bombardment of the overthinking. And the brains actually, we're not.

developed enough at that age to be able to deal with these emotions and then it's in isolation because we're not reaching out in the friendship groups we're not talking about it in the community centres we're not going into the sports because maybe it's not there for whatever reason so now I'm sitting in my bedroom and now I'm sitting with these thoughts and now I can't function so what am I going to do I need like you know I need an escape and imagine that that is such an overwhelming feeling so sadly I'm not surprised that's where we're at but like I think it's the educational piece. We won't get rid of tech. It's always going to be there. But why are we what are we doing with it? How are we using it? Because there's also really positive

sites to it. It can be used for education. It can be used for, yeah, maybe you do have a family member in Australia. And, you know, I remember when I moved to Australia, like, I think it was Skype and, like, you know, you could just about say hi to someone if you had the internet. So, you know, there is a connection piece that we can use from it. But sadly, there is this other dark side to it that needs to be addressed. in terms of education, on understanding, you know, what are you looking for from it? What is it, yeah, how is it impacting? What would be, like, let's say a 16-year-old girl or 17-year-old girl that ends up in your office

because of self-harm? Like, what is an approach that you would take with that, with that correct? In terms of actually managing the self-arm? Yeah. So when we first look at, and I just want to say, I work with over 18s, but everyone's still kind of in that, we'll say, adolescent. category in that. But the first thing I'm looking at is it's not to be able to shame it because as soon as you shame it, someone's not going to open up to you on it. So it's about the

step process and you probably look at this as a guidance council, I'm sure, you know, about, right, when you feel that you want to do it, what is going on for you in that moment? Is there something else you can do? It doesn't matter if you can't, but is there something else you can do? Because want to know why. So it's always the root, you know, when we're even looking at, you know, disordered eating, all of these kind of things all come together. It's the root. We're doing it to make us feel a certain way. Why do you need to feel that way? So when someone might come in and say, you know, I self-harmed in the week, I say, okay, let's look at that. Let's look at that picture. What was going on for you? Oh, you know, this happened and then I couldn't deal with it,

so this happened. Okay. Next time, what could you do? Well, actually, there was a moment. It was about this big that moment and I thought maybe I don't have to but I still went and did it I said that's okay but let's make that moment a little bit bigger can we widen it you know can we actually start to say oh maybe I don't need to I still get the feelings I still get the sensation but you know maybe I can just have a little elastic band and I'm just going to go like that because now I've grounded myself now I'm back in the world now I know what's happening whereas a lot of the time it is that pure escapism I just can't cope I'm caught and now I'm feeling it, so I'm grounded.

And it's a bit of an awkward one because we then preach about grounding yourself, but obviously this is not the way to be doing it. But, you know, we also have to, I'm always, I'm a big believer in saying to anyone that walks in, whatever you've done to survive is your coping strategy and well done for surviving. I don't care what it looks like. you managed to get through it. So, you know, again, lifting the shame. Because if we talk about it like this,

someone in this audience will say, that happened to me. And oh, and they're okay and they're talking about it. And, you know, shame lives in the darkness, not in the light. So we've got to bring it into the light. I actually think it's terrifying

because I was in a position where I was self-harming for a period of time. And in the last like two minutes of you speaking, bear in mind, I mentioned that I was in a private hospital in Dublin. And thank God I had VHI, because I just couldn't get in anywhere else. And I remember my bill being $42,000 euro.

And I never got that answer. Like, I literally waited like four to six weeks to be seen by a psychotherapist to then speak about it, to be shamed. And being like, you know, everyone would be talking about you. It was kind of like a joke. And then the second person I seen was like, you should just close your eyes. I'll actually never forget this.

And think of fluffy polar bears. And I just was like, do you know what? I'm going to discharge myself now. I've had enough. But like, I just don't, so it's hard when people go into a system that you think is going to help you when you are presented with that straight away

from your doctors, where it's medication or going into hospitals, when that's what you're educated on there in front of them. And then you go in and you get stuff like that. Like, I think it's terrifying that that amount of money has been thrown at a hospital and I've learned more off you in two minutes.

Like, it's scary. For those in the room who have daughters, and I'm going to bring up, this one to care as well. How can they spot if their daughter is suffering with body image issues or disorderly and how can they help or avoid making the situation worse? Great question. I think a good indication firstly on the body image aspect is probably a level of like some red flags is the controlling of food and obviously if you see a massive change within your you know your daughter in such a short space of time that's usually a great indication but I think one that slips

past people is the body checking. And this gets, this got me a lot. And I think even as I was healing my relationship with food, I was still body checking, checking massively. So every reflection I walked past, I was checking myself out. And not in a vain way. It was more in a way of a safety, safety thing of like, has my body change? Is it changing? And I just think that that is a massive one when it comes to body image. But then I think it's the controlling of food. This is also a massive thing. Like there was one point in my life. Sorry for the audience because they might not understand. So what does control of the food?

Oh, sorry. So this goes on to look like more so the measuring and weighing of every single food, being really worried with your food choices. And you might notice it even if you cook dinners for your door or etc. Like for me, I wouldn't accept any family meals then at some point. It got to a point where I eat every family meal and then I wasn't eating any family meals. And that happened. I think, you know, my mom was trying to probably.

honor me growing up and thinking that that was maybe a normal thing, and never questioned it until the point that, again, I was probably sitting on the verge of anorexia and everybody around me was like, oh, there's an issue now. So I just think these little things of, again, watching the food habits if somebody sits out from meals, they don't want to eat it with the family, they're questioning potentially what's put in the meals. And I think with helping fitness, you know, being such a massive thing at the moment, I looked so healthy. And everybody taught I was so healthy until it got to obviously a point that I didn't look healthy anymore. And I think that's the thing about health and fitness is that it is great.

And it's great for people's mental health until we go past the point. And I always say anything taken to an extreme is never healthy. And especially when it comes to food and fitness, you know, if you're watching somebody who can't sit easy or can sit down and have, again, that meal, that's also a great indication that somebody is probably struggling with what they see in the mirror or struggling with their relationship with food. So yeah, is that answered the question? the only thing I'd say as a parent that is maybe seeing something what I find a lot of the time is

parents blame themselves and then that blame means they don't act because it's the defense of I don't really want to know you do want to know because you love your child you don't want to know because oh my gosh it's happening here or did I do something to cause this and that can really tug hugely at a parent. So what I would say is be compassionate to yourself because compassion allows you to open up to any little thing. And it might not be that it's disordered eating. But at least you can have that open conversation. There's that communication. And that's, I think, a big thing that I would say to parents, don't be hard on yourself. Open it up. There is a conversation to have there, though, I would imagine, for a lot of parents who grew up in the 80s and the 90s and went through kind of diet culture when I was at a tie.

and they're probably you know they could be looking at their daughters and thinking oh did I create like generational dialing in my child because I was constantly saying oh I can't eat that I'll be fat or you know I can't have carbs because it's going to make you gain weight or excessively chumping on the scales and then it's a very difficult conversation to confront that okay you know potentially you did have an impact in just gonna say we all have an impact on our kids yeah yeah yeah yeah so it but you have to come to grips with that and like I said, people that would want to be kind to yourself in it.

You know, we're all doing our best. And that's the narrative and that's what I want people to take home. You're doing your best, but open up a conversation. If you see anything that you're thinking, and it might not be. So then it's fine. But maybe it is. And maybe you've just helped someone that could be going down, you know, a long trajectory of having to, you know, work very hard to get to a stable place with their mental health.

Yeah. So here's a question then. What would it look like to be in a household where, you know, you are to set in the example of a healthy relationship with food, healthy relationship with your body? Maybe I'll go back to you there. I'm probably going to say less comments on the body image around your children. And I think we do this unknowingly. And, you know, my mother even having me go through that is still, like not educated whatsoever. And I think, you know, her going back to obviously the previous point as well, that, you know,

her way of dealing wasn't avoidance, but it was trying, it was over control, it was overbearing. It was like, you're not allowed to do this now. And that pushed me even further into disordered eating and still trying to control my body image and stuff. And she had no education at the time around that. And again, still doesn't. So she would still, now, thankfully, I'm in a great place and have a great relationship with food now. But there's sometimes, like, I would, typical Irish mother, but I would have more food. And she'd be like, you're eating again? That's an awful lot for you. and you know I just brush it off now but I know me back then

wouldn't have been able to and that would have manifested and came out in my relationship of food and looking at how I looked and I think my mom obviously struggled with her way when she and still does but that is sorry I lost my point there but that is one of the reasons lost my point sorry you're right I want to go on to before we take some questions So you can think of a question now while I'm asking this one. And I'll probably go on to you face as well. So 2021 behind the scenes report found that girls are disproportionately targeted for online harassment and image-based abuse.

Reputational attacks like public shaming, sexualized rumors or screenshots shared without consent have often led to self-harm, which are all from school, long-term social anxiety. Is this something that you see coming up in schools is kind of obviously with boys, it's very much. you know, physical violence is the way they deal with things. Whereas with teenage girls, it's more, you know, reputational damage, which can be even worse because it's something that follows you home as well. Absolutely. I see it every day, if not four or five times a day. Sometimes it's literally like she didn't like my post. Do you know, small things that are not small?

Or she didn't like my post and then she looked at me at the locker. So it's teeny tiny things that these things are built upon. and we think are nothing, you know, like if we didn't look at the student in the hallway, they wouldn't think we hated them or, you know, that way. So it's small things, but it absolutely is, it's everywhere. Like you were saying there about the reputational damage and image spreading. It's even like more so now because schools have iPads and different things.

So they might be taking a picture and someone's in the background and then it's zoomed in at this person in the background and an emoji is put in and then it's sent around the group chat. And then it's not even malicious. So the intention is not for it to be bullying or targeted, but the impact is that it is, and it feels targeted to that person on the receiving end, yes, it's everywhere. And even though it might be coming from your so-called friends, people that you like, people that you trust, it is everywhere.

But those, when you have, I do restorative practice. So we sit down and we have a chat together and we say, okay, I feel this way because of these actions or whatever way we resolve it. And a lot of the time the person actually perpetrating that thing doesn't even realize that they're having that impact. And the other person on the receiving end has not been able to eat or sleep for weeks. So we also haven't been able to teach children these days to resolve their own conflict. So we have these friendship issues or bullying problems. And I know there's the, the beacon altar is the new anti-bullying program rolled out amongst all primary schools and all post-primary schools.

Age and stage appropriate. it, but it's still happening. Like, I think, was that 2021? So that was the year that Coco's Law came out. So Coco's Law is the Harmful Communications Act. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but basically it makes harassment and bullying online, cyberbullying, illegal. And it also prevents the threatening and or sending of intimate images illegal as well.

But while they know about that, and I'm actually the person that goes in and teaches them about this. While you can try and teach them about this, well-being is not taught, it's lived. So if you are not actually role-playing out this message, this kindness, this every single day. And in schools, they're not an awful lot of the time. Like, they'll go in and their shoes

and you'd be like, where are your runners? And then you're like, why are you not being kind to people? Do you know, like, why are you wearing that jacket instead of your uniform? So why aren't you being kind to people? And like, for me, like, technically in my school, I am supposed to follow the rules. But I'm like, that is not my job.

You've absolutely no idea how people are showing up this morning. They might have had a message from their friends that they're all going out at the weekend. This person wasn't invited. And that is the thing that they sit on. And that's like Katie, what you were saying. That's the thing that they are sitting isolated in their room with and saying, how do I feel that certain way? And then that's the element of control.

It might be self-harm. It might be body image, whatever it is. And to us, it's like, oh, would you get over it? But these are real people with real feelings. And I know they're 15 or whatever age. But they will get over it, but their feelings are still very real right now. So you can't just be like, oh, look, get over it, you'd be grand, you'd be best friend next week.

They might be. But their feelings are still very valid in that time. So I think, yes, it's everywhere to answer your question in the long way. Yes, it's absolutely everywhere. And yes, their feelings are valid in that. So does a parent feel about knowing that their child's probably going through that? It's kind of, there's kind of no, you don't have any control over the situation really because, you know, you know, messages going left, right and centre.

It's like there's nothing you can really do. It's not like you're comfortable with one child. Totally. Their behaviour with your daughter or your son. So how do you cope with that? Where are kids going through that? When the teenage girls go through that? I get this question all the time when I have to ring home because an issue has come up

and everything in my office is confidential. Apart from, obviously, if a child is a harm to themselves somewhere else or if they want to harm somebody else. But if I phone home and I say, okay, so this is the case. they say, what can I do about it? And like that, like Katie said, it's down to shame. Open up a non-judgmental space.

Be vulnerable about your own struggles. That is when somebody will open up to you about something that they're struggling with. Yes, it's difficult. But like I say to the kids, yes, it's hard, but you can do hard things. Like we need to role model for those young people that this is how we handle things.

This is how we speak about things. And if you're coming in with that like, oh sure, you shouldn't be on. your phone or like they're just going to say right well you're not going to know about it. I'll still be on my phone but you're just not going to know about it. So I suppose opening up that conversation not even letting on like I would say don't let on that we have that conversation go home and leave a little nugget of conversation while you're having dinner or like when you're driving home or maybe you're taking the dog for a walk.

Drop a little nugget and be like do you know what I saw on Instagram or do you know and open it up that way don't make it about the young person because then they will feel seen in all the ways. They'll feel shame. They'll feel blame and they'll just won't want to open up. They'll physically close down about that thing and then you're not getting in again. Yeah. Last question and it can be to any of you. What advice then would you have for, let's say, a teenage girl going through some of the issues that we spoke about at the moment, whether it's, you know, online bullying, whether it's self-harm, whether it's body image issues, the bombardment of social media. Like how can they navigate that and come out to the other end,

okay. Where do you start? I'll start. I think social media plays a massive, massive part, and I think for the women that I work with on a day-to-day basis, it's known that you have some control over the stuff that you see

on your feed. So I will get messages off clients and it's like, I've seen this and I seen that and we'll talk through and I'm like, okay, but have you unfollowed those people yet? And I know it seems such a simple thing, but having control over your feed to some extent will massively help. Like I know for me when I was struggling with my body image and food, I had random women as my wallpaper because I

wanted to look like them. And that also isn't helpful. And I think it's known and it's given the children back that decision. It's not the adult making the decision because I know when I was told not to do something again, I shut down and I didn't want to help and I didn't want to change because I didn't want these things to be taken off me. But if you give someone autonomy and make them feel like they're the ones making the decision, it's so much more powerful. Like just opening the question of like, is that actually helpful? Is seeing that actually helpful for you? Because if it isn't, then why do we keep looking at it? And again, those questions were never phrased to me when I was obviously going through my struggles and I never had that. But I think on a social media aspect,

it is controlling, especially because again, we're not getting away from technology and it's here to say. So how can we manage it? And I think that definitely just giving people the power back to know what's helpful for them and who they're following. And is that actually, you know, motivating them, helping them in any way? Are they giving out great tools on a day-to-day basis? Or are you just looking at them because you really don't like what you see and you want to be them? And I think, yeah, it's just giving the power back to them to make that decision as well. I would just say people coming out, one of my first questions to anyone, what does your support system look like? And when we think of support system, people think, oh, my mom, dad, siblings,

something like that. No, no, support system goes way further than that. You know, this could be the person in the coffee shop that says hello to me every morning they make me smile. So that makes you feel good so there's something safe about that situation. So how can you take that safety into another aspect? You know, reaching out to a therapist at the age of, well

anyway, under 18 you've got to get your parents' consent. So that's a big barrier in itself. But over 18, it is a big thing to do. Obviously, yes, it's going to help, but it's like how do you stepping stone to things? So is the support system my friend? And then I spoke to her and she actually went to therapy or she

said that this happened with her at home or oh my I go to this house and their mom always seems really nice so I think I might be able to just say something you know look at your support system what does it look like because it might not be safe at home and maybe that's not what your support system is so we do need to look further afield and just find it maybe it is mom and dad and that's great but you know it's just kind of working with that to know where the reaches because it's all about isolation if you're doing it in isolation it is just going to snowball all the time you're never going to be able to get out of that, you know, the reach has to happen. And unfortunately, normally the reach happens when we're on the floor. So let's try and not get on the floor and kind of look at the support

systems in place. Any questions? Okay, go ahead. All right, round of a class.