The Uneducated PT Podcast - Ep. 154 Is the gym therapy?

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

I'm joined by rob and ger as we touch on whether saying the gym is therapy is okay when we talk about mental health plus what's the green flags of a good personal trainer?

Yeah. Did you enjoy it, Rob? The running. No, the talks on the weekend. Yeah, yeah, it was really, really well run and a really decent mix of people on the panels as well. What was your most interesting topic? I missed a little bit of it,

but I quite like the mental health part where Dr. Mike was chatting to Josh. That was pretty good. About what? I'm brain fogging now but basically sounds really interesting I just like mental health

it's basically yeah just chatting about how part of it was how exercising things does benefit mental health and obviously the links between I don't know if I can't remember if this was explicitly said but obviously when you exercise you're more capable of doing

things that you might want to do in life and when you're more able to do those things obviously you're self Did Mike talk about how that going to the gym isn't therapy? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, he said how it's therapeutic, but not therapy. Yeah.

How did I forget that line? I don't know. I think I would challenge him on that because I think that there's many different, like, obviously, if we're talking about it in terms of, you know, psychoanalysis or sitting down in, in an office, you know, talking to someone, there's talk, there's talk therapy. Okay. but essentially you could extend you have to say that that is talk therapy but i think there's plenty of different ways like i know i know what i know what he means i think it's semantics to be honest about you know uh oh uh going to the gym isn't therapy because if someone goes to the gym

and exercises and they feel better mentally from it you know if they want to say gym is my therapy i used to be like i used to say the exact same thing no gym isn't therapy therapy is therapy. But now that now like if someone if someone's doing something that's benefiting them in terms of their mental health and they want to say to the world, oh, the gym is my therapy. And that keeps them saying and that gets them to go on with their life. I'm like, mm. You may really, am I really going to get into the nitty gritty of terminology in order to downplay the benefits of them feeling better about themselves? You, you can argue both sides. We've discussed, we've discussed how, like for me the sea

I could say the sea is therapy for me yeah exactly you know I and you would be right and you would be right yeah I also I also do therapy so I like there's it's different forms of it exactly it's it's you would but you would say it's talk therapy that

if you wanted to if you wanted to if you wanted to create semantics about it like I understand I understand the therapy or the sea is not therapy therapy therapy yeah well again I just I just find it's semantics at the end of the day. I did, I did like how he just said it's therapeutic.

Because like some people, some people don't fully need therapy. So them having an outlet can be their therapy. Yes. And I also agree that there are some people who, you know, they'll do all the self-development stuff. But at the end of the day, they probably do. It's just avoidance for the fact that they probably need to go talk to someone about their underlying issues and why they're, you know,

running themselves into the ground or whatever. it is. It's like, yeah, like all the achievement in the world is not going to really satisfy you because there's something that you're just avoiding. But so there is that aspect of it. But I also think, yeah, it's like if someone finds something that is beneficial to their mental health, I mean, nipicking about how they word it is kind of silly as well. It's like mental therapy, usually go to a therapist or get medication, whatever it is. But you just said as well, But yeah, I notice on mental therapy, but like, if it's the aspect's mental health,

that there is, you can't box them into categories. Maybe, maybe the argument, um, was leaning towards the fact that people who do all the things for self-development, but still need therapy. Calling all those things therapy.

That's where, that's where the issue is. That's, that's probably the argument for that. Yeah. What I was going to get to was, mental therapy, potentially go to therapist, physical therapy, potentially go to a physiotherapist if you need like a physical ailment recovering. Gym is almost like, or exercise is almost a mixture

of the two just in a slightly subtler way, if that makes sense. You kind of connect in your mind and your brain. What if you're feeling depressed and anxious because you haven't moved her, body. Then obviously if moving helps, which obviously does like going for walks and things does improve mental health. I do feel better now than I did before I left. Yeah. But it's not necessarily because you, sometimes it's not because you have a problem that I talk

about. Sometimes it is you're sat there, you're feeling restless, you're feeling anxious, you've got too much of something going on and going for a walk helps that out. you don't need to go to talk about anything. It's just a state of how you feel in the moment, isn't it? And getting out is that release sometime. Yeah, true. I was talking to a men's mental health therapist the other day.

And one thing we spoke about as well is that, you know, for a lot of men as well, like, as much as it's a hard conversation now because sometimes it's like, yeah, we've broke the stigma around getting men to talk. But also a lot of the times now in modern society, it's like, all right, well, just telling men to talk all the time isn't actually really the answer because a lot of times men deal with things a lot differently than women and for you to sit down with a therapist and just continue to ruminate over an issue rather than actually having actionable steps like maybe therapy isn't therapeutic as Dr. Mike would put it and you know your therapy would be going for that

swim or going for that cycle or going for that run or building that business or being productive or whatever it is and getting you out of your mind and into your body like I don't don't know how you can't say that that's that's that's essentially for them. I also think like with the amount of various different levels of therapists that are out there like you can go talk about it as you said as much as you want but you also have to do something. And we're not just talking about like the gym, the outdoors and stuff like if you go to therapy and you are talking about different topics, you also have to go about dealing with them. Yeah. Not just. going into a room once a week for an hour and just be like, right, I'm just going to keep hammering

talking about this and hopefully it'll all change. See, I understand. Like, obviously, like, awareness breeds change and like sometimes you have to get to the, the root of the problem and, and talking to a therapist might help with that. But then you'll also get a lot of female therapist and it's in, it's in their biology to, you know, continue to fester out a problem, let's say, for a lack of a better word. It's like they, they are designed to actually talk about it and almost ruminate about it more and they want you to kind of open up about it as much as possible. For a lot of lads that kind of does go against their makeup as well. It's like, well, me talking about this isn't actually solving the problem. I just, I need to do something

about it. It's why you always, you can distinguish between males and females the fact that, you know, a girlfriend wants to talk about the issue and then like a man just wants to figure out how they can help solve the issue. Let's say your girlfriend comes home and she's in a bad mood because someone, you know, did something to her or whatever. Like the male's a lot better at saying,

okay, how can we solve this problem versus oh, how did that make you feel? It's logical versus emotional. Exactly. It's logical versus emotional. Right. I think with therapy then as well, like I'm lucky now with my therapist, she deals with a lot of high-level male athletes. Yeah.

She has a lot of work with them. And I think doing work with them makes it a lot easier for her to work with men. Yeah, and I will caveat that by saying, like, there's lots of women who have a far more logical brain and men who have an emotional brain. So I know there's crossover in this. I'm just saying this in a generalised.

Yeah. Don't worry, I'm not trying to get you cancelled. So if it's on a you shared, Carlos, someone, else maybe someone like Chris Williamson, but I saw something like that about studies where it's basically women deal with their problems better by discussing it and going and having like a gossipy catch-up with the girlfriend's lunch or whatever. Whereas guys are going somewhere and being with other guys, whether it's watching the football, whether it's going holding hands, walking in the park, eating an ice cream or something, not actually talking necessarily.

saying what needs to be said and not really anything more sometimes. Yeah, and I also think that that gets played down now from modern society is like, oh, we're such, you know, underdeveloped, unsophisticated creatures that, you know, we need to be building something with our hands to bond versus, you know,

people sitting down and having a conversation about how they feel. But, I mean, like, it's, like, if it works for men, then why demonise that, you know, it's probably better that they all go out on a football pitch and kick a ball and then have chats in the changing room versus, you know, sitting down and having a coffee and talking about, you know, all their issues straight away. If like, if we're not designed that way, you know, I think it also, why are we trying to treat, we're trying to treat male issues with female

solutions? I also think it depends on you and the people around you because I have a friend whose partner will often go out with the girls and talk about it. They call them, is it the board of trustees? It's all the partners. Nothing gets fucking solved there. Nothing. It just comes back to be a bigger argument or a bigger problem.

I went out a couple of weeks ago with maybe what, three, four of the lads. We had some very deep conversations. Some very deep ones. Like it didn't start off that way. There was fucking old war story, shenanigans, a few points and stuff like that.

And then we're like, well, there's actually something we do need to talk about. Something going on. So I do think it depends. it also can be good just to go outside and kick around the fucking football. Yeah. You know,

it goes both ways. I think we all kind of need it. I think it's like you'll see girls then like the whole thought of going to a raid room. They love the idea. I'm like, because you just need to go out and break stuff too.

Yeah, yeah. Talking doesn't always help just like fucking breaking stuff all the time doesn't help. I think that's also, I think of what you spoke about, Rob, that's also, they've contributed that to why men are a little bit more disconnected in society

a little bit lonelier is because it's harder for them to maintain relationships or friendships because we're bonded over activity rather than, you know, conversation, whereas women, like, they can hold onto their relationships because they can go out and have a coffee, you know, once a week and just catch up. Whereas most of your male friendships came from, okay, you met someone in work, but now you might be retired from work. So you find it difficult to hold on to that friendship or, you know, you played sports with that person. now you're retired because your knees can't can't keep up with what you're supposed to be doing.

So now it's after a couple of years, you find it hard to kind of stay in contact with them teammates or whatever it is. It's like it's more, I even find out with my own group of friends is that even though we're still friends and we're still group chat and stuff like that, it's harder to just and it's not like I did it last night. I went out for a burrito with two of my friends and it was great and that's all we did and we just chatting. But it's a little bit more difficult for.

for men than females, I think. Why is it, though? Because I have this with my friend group. We have a guy that's leaving the country in September. And there's always one to three out of this big group that organize the get-together. And it's always a nightmare to organize it.

But everyone is very happy and very keen when it's on. Why is it easier for women to get together for a coffee or a meal whereas men it's a fucking nightmare yeah you go back why don't why indeed

I don't know I love a coffee why is it so fucking hard to go yeah I'm free then I'll do it I think they commit more to it yeah they definitely commit more to it I also think we just are

biologically designed to be doing rather than you know being so it's changed the thing rather than like oh let's go get a coffee. I'm like, I don't think you,

I don't think you can fight against evolution that much. Like it's, I think you just have to work with your nature. Yeah. You know, like men and women are different. We're designed different

and I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging that. I like those two contradictory words though, like evolution by, I'm going to say by definition and not actually define it properly here. But evolution is evolving. Evolving, yeah, true.

And changing. to the environment. Yeah. We also didn't talk about our feelings as openly as we have in the last five to ten years. Yeah, so I'm not saying

that we aren't, I don't, I'm not saying that we can't be emotionally intelligent or that we can't, you know, converse with each other. But you also have to probably

realize that we're also made up a certain way and that you shouldn't fight too much against biology as well because evolution takes hundreds of thousands of years. That's the point I was just about to make. Yeah.

It can happen, but it takes a while. Yeah. And then also, is there anything wrong with that? Like, is there anything, dude, like, why do we, why do we need to, you know, change to be more like females? Why can't we just accept that men are the way men are and then create environments that help them to thrive in that situation? Yeah. I don't know. I think, I think, do we talk about it before, how men tend to have the heart to heart at the end.

of like a night out. Yeah. It's always, yeah, I think we talked about that before where it's, yeah, you'll always get to a certain stage

of the night and someone, someone wants to chat. And it's like, we couldn't do this any time. Yeah. Anytime. I find,

yeah, certain friend groups are better, like growing up around rugby players and stuff, that never fucking happened. Yeah. But it's, at the same time,

you don't want to, like, create an environment where it's like, men need to get blackout drunk in order to have heart to hearts. Like, you know,

no, no, right, we're going to drink as much as we can and then we're going to talk about real problems. I think you just need to create challenges for like, like you need to be able to create, like it would be great

if there was some like government incentive where it's like, okay, you found people who maybe were retired or unemployed you know, we're struggling with loneliness in terms of male population and he created these environments where they had to you know, do things

do things in a group of men whatever it was like and that challenged them but also kind of created some sort of team morale I've I've a few I have a few mates that if they ask you how you're doing and you go

I'm all right or I'm fine they'll be like why aren't you great and they'll keep going at you and we're like oh well this might be going on or you say I am doing great and then they're like well then what's

going on that's great they will actually try to fucking get it out of you and it's good because there are times we're like I'm open enough but there are times I don't want to talk about someone, something with someone, and then they kind of, they just hammer at you that little bit,

and you're like, right, fine, I'll tell you about my feelings, you dick it. How do you feel when you actually interact with that? Does you feel better after having done it? You do feel better. Like, it's, John, it's the reason why I go to therapy once a week

is because it does feel that little bit safer. It also has the unbiased of its, there's no, like, I know the, these friend groups for such a long time that I know their biases, whereas this therapist is there to have an open an open discussion, not take their own view on it,

and it's my time. I also don't like meeting people that I may not like get to see all the time and then having just that conversation. Because depending on the level of conversation can take over the day or the night. 100%. Sometimes it does have to happen

and I'm perfectly okay with other people doing. it. I just like to do it myself somewhere else. Yeah. Because also you also want you also sometimes don't want or need deep conversations. It's okay to just want to have like surface level funny

like being silly with like you get as much out of that sometimes as you do a deep conversation to the therapist. I'm doing I'm doing enough reflecting. I don't want to do it all the fucking time. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Give me some liehearted. Give me a dark humor. Give me like let me like that's why it's great to have like different social circles of friends or someone you can be absolutely ridiculous with someone you can have deep conversations with

someone you can be more intellectual with like i think you need someone you can just you know focus on your health and fitness way i think you need that kind of variety in in people what do you i agree with that statement yeah i think you need like i was just chatting to my brother-in-law the other day about, so we were watching my niece play football with, so she plays with a team of all guys, but she like just throws herself at it, she'll get really involved in it. It's kind of like a level playing field, which is lovely to see. But then you also see all the really different personalities, like one kid who's basically just agro all the time, but it's really good footballer. And it's just like supporting those different personalities throughout to make that team. And it's kind of

like society you need, you can't just have everyone exactly the same. Something I was going to say though about why guys might be less prone to kind of meeting up and sharing stuff in like a comfortable, efficient way. Like as just thinking back to being at school, like a lot of guys will cover up insecurities or an inability, is that strong word? Inability to talk about their emotions by just making a joke or being sarcastic.

And I feel like sometimes, like thinking back to being a teenager, girls kind of develop through adolescence quite quickly. And I think maybe that links to their confidence building as ours as guys isn't really building while you're like 13, 14. So like your confidence as the girls get better and you kind of fancy them more or whatever it is,

depending on your sexuality, of course. Like you develop insecurities that you then take the piss out of each other for and you don't develop through those years of developing an ability to communicate well, you don't actually develop that because it's just surface level humor. So then once you get to like late teens, early 20s, the idea of having a conversation that deep seems intimidating because you've never really made it your baseline. we're not that intimidating, it just overwhelms you because you're not used to it. I don't know what I meant to say that. No, I think that makes sense, but I also think that's why it's important

to have older role models as well because like if you're 20, you're going, like, you try to have a chat with the lads when you're 20 or 19 or like, what are like our prefrontal cortex or doesn't develop properly till we're like 25 or something. So you're still going to be immature up until then anyway.

So when you and you're, may try to have a serious conversation or say something serious, like you followed it up with something sarcastic, and it just comes so naturally, and then you probably start laughing about it. I feel like that personally for me is a great combination, because you're having the serious conversation, and then you're making light of it.

Yeah. Whereas just making light of it constantly and taking the piss out of each other. Oh, yeah. Oh, you've got a small dick, all this sort of stuff. Like, that then ruminates, Like you were saying before, Carl, about just saying that he hates running all the time. If you keep saying that and you don't have extra conversation about it,

you will believe it and you'll stop doing it. Yeah, true. Because you actually... I haven't stopped doing it. But you talk about it outside of that and the benefits of it. You're aware of it. Yeah, I am. Like, it's more of a joke for me.

Like, it's do the hard thing because it does have lots of benefits and I'm lucky that I have the two feet that can do it. It's just shit, though. It's like you did the talk of. on eating disorders with Sophia and Josh's mom as well. Yeah. And you said beforehand, you were like, I don't know how to do, like, how to approach this necessarily. But you just went in and you actually talked seriously, but authentically.

And then you made like a really, I can't remember exactly what it was, but you made a really well-timed, witty comment. And everyone kind of had let their guard, that's when everyone let their guard down to, like, emotionally engage with it. it. Yeah, having a combination of the two. Yeah, there's nothing better than saying a funny joke after someone says something extremely deep and serious.

Yeah, talking, talk about like passing out in a bathroom from an eating disorder and then make a fucking joke about it. Yeah. I think sometimes that goes well. And then sometimes it's like, all right, just let, let there be. It's kind of what we talked about there. Like, you could be having a deep conversation with a mate, generally male.

then you'll make some joke about it. I think that's kind of how I was feeling in that moment. Like, it was a tough fucking panel to be on. It was a tough thing to talk about it. Because, like, I also had, like, I had Josh's mom, Andrea on one side. I had SOF on the other.

So you're, you're not only, like, dealing with your own stuff that you're telling people. You're listening to their stories as well. And because, like, you resonate with it, that's making you sad as well. So, like, and there was a couple of different stages where I was just looking at SOF and I was like,

let's not cry here now. I don't want to do that. I think we had some laugh about something. But yeah, I think the, I think, what is it, men, we grow up taking the piss out of each other where I think girls generally are more supportive. You know, like, if you play that. And they just put each other down completely

and ostracize them from the group. Yeah, well, that's a different side of it. Like, you know, let's not, let's not get into the middle of that. That's not our problem. Sorry guys. Yeah, but yeah. But then there's also, who was I listening to that with speaking about this as well?

Like I think taking the piss out of each other is also important as well. But it's like there's a spectrum to it. So it's like who was it speaking about? Obviously in America, it's all like, you're the best you can do this, loads of support. You can do anything you want. And then in the UK and Ireland,

it's more like, you know, cut you down to size kind of thing. And I think sometimes you need boat because you'll have the person who has a very kind of big ego and sometimes needs to be, you know, put their feet back on the ground a little bit. But then also you also need to be gassed up by people and like, you know, you're pushed to go and achieve things. I think there's an element of bow. And then I think some people need a little bit more of, you know, the support and less of the, you know, jokey stuff. and then some people need a little bit more of like, yeah, like you're doing great and then also like,

you know, also a time and a place. Yeah, of course. Like I definitely, my group of friends, like, and us,

we all take the piss out of each other, but there's times there where we need to realize maybe we shouldn't be doing that. Yeah, like put it this way. I remember being in like, um, business mentorships and there,

it was with like people from pretty much kind of all over the world. And you had your Americans and you had your, your people in the boy and had your people in the UK and a few of them people could have been could have done with a little bit of you know put them put them kind of in their box with a couple of jockey comments about because like ego incredibly inflated to a point that all right you might be making a ton of money but are you a great person I don't know if you are yeah I think it's like Oshin it's Oshin that's got that mind map of losing weight right it's not just low calories.

Like all of the societal pressures, all of work and everything. And it's the same with this. It depends on how that person's life is interacting with them in general and how they're going to then interact with you, what your understanding is of them, and whether you actually know what's going on

in the background and whether making the joke is relevant, whether you're able to judge how they react to you, taking the piss out of them, whether they give you like a really forced smile and maybe it looked like they're about to burst in tears or whether it's like a genuine authentic bursting out laughing. I'm really glad you said that. There's just there's no black and white to it really, is there? It's your relationship with those people. Yeah, and then you have to kind of realize what type of person you are and what type of person, the type of people that you need to be around right now. Like do I need to be around people who are going to

gas me up and push me to like pursue goals that I feel that I'm not good enough to achieve? or, you know, am I happier that, right, I can get on with it and do these things and achieve things, but I also need someone to, you know, put my feet to the ground every now and again. And obviously, that has to be someone close to you, obviously knows to have your best interest at a heart, whether that's like a partner or a friend or a brother or whatever it is. It's like, yeah, like, you're doing great things, but don't forget where you come from and how you're supposed to treat people. And I think that's possibly an area where guys, just in terms of making sure you've got the right people around you in the right moment, sometimes the person next you might not feel like the right person. But if you can communicate what you need from them in the moment, they might be able to tweak themselves to be that person temporarily.

So I think that's one thing where women in general are possibly better at vocalizing their needs and their expectations. expectations, whereas guys are possibly better at just assuming that person might not be right for this situation. So I'll just try it over here. And it's not even always the person, but at the environment as well, because if you're around like six lads and you're all slagging each other, it's very easy to like, you know, point out something about someone and make a joke because it's just like, it's just bouncing off each other all the time. But you're probably not going to make them same jokes with the two views. They're just out together in a one of one situation. and he's just literally ripping India

like there's no one else to laugh at the joke like that's a bit awkward yeah yeah no point all right do you want to know so we went on a tangent there but that wasn't what this podcast was going to be about at all today fantastic ultimate side quest

yeah like about 37 minutes in and now I want to actually get into what we were going to talk about today no let's just keep going this way it makes me feel good no no I want to because I'm this is a good this is a good topic that I want just to touch on as well. So today's podcast was going to be all about choosing the right personal trainer or a great personal trainer and the red flags and the green flags. And I thought, who better than these two handsome, knowledgeable men to, yeah, you two

to touch on this. So what I wanted to start with was maybe, maybe the, like let's say someone's trying going to hire a personal trainer for the first time which is a big investment because it's like it's going to be the it's going to be a big investment and it's going to take up a lot of time you want to get the right personality that suits you and you're probably going to be with them for maybe six months to a year so choosing a good personal trainer choosing the right personal trainer for you first and foremost what these team makes a great trainer

What are some non-negotiables for a great trainer that people have to look out for? Say that again? Non-negotiables. What are some not listening skills? Yeah. Yeah, of course. Skills basically. I think that's one of the most important.

Because even if they deliver the first session and you think, ah, that coach isn't for me. Like, I didn't like the way we did that, the way they spoke to me here. Like, if you feel, I guess it's a mixture of quick rapport and, good communication. If you feel comfortable being able to say like, I wasn't quite sure about that, what about this? If the PT is able to then go, well, the reason we did this was because of this, and I think you'll really benefit from it. But if you really want to tweak it, we can do this for now, maybe bring it back. And the way that I communicate with you, I can kind of change that a little bit. As long as it's not like completely trying to change who they are as a PT, then yeah, having that

communication, good rapport and adaptability. Maybe those are my three. That's good. What does a great trainer do differently from day one, do you think, than a poor trainer? Ask for more money. No. More money. They want to get to know you.

Yeah. You're not just a number. Like I make jokes of my clients. like after the weekend in Birmingham, one of my clients said to me, they're like, I'm really shocked you're here after the weekend you've put down. And I was like, well, you're the reason I can buy stuff. And we both laughed. And I was like, but like, joking.

I'm like, yes, they are the reason I have money in my pocket. But like, I know about family life. I know about things that are going on with them. Yeah, but do you think, right, just to push back on that, do you think you're going to know all that stuff about a client from day one? No. That's day 100, maybe. Oh, you're gone quiet for me.

Have you gone quite? All right. Hello? Who's gone quiet? Oh, no. You had gone quiet. I dropped something and then your, your voice disappeared. I thought I'd broken something.

So, like, I understand what you're saying about. They know their client or they want to get their know the client. But I don't think that's what you do from day one, from day one. You build rapport with people over time. yeah that's true but I think there's a way like there's a way you talk to talk to people at the start yeah as well so like you do try to get to know them it's not just all about their fitness past experiences and different of that you're trying to get to know them as a person because it may like obviously it takes time to build that but like you'll always say like if

someone says I want to lose I want to lose weight you'd be like why you want to find their core reasons what's going on with them so like you are trying to get to know them from the from the get-go rather than just be like fill out this survey, I'll do your program and there you go. And if you adhere to that for the next three months, you will get results. Yeah. Well, that's what I mean. When you say get to know them, I think what you really mean is get to know what they want. Because at the end of the day, like, yeah, you want to build a relationship with a client, but you can't build a relationship on day one. But what you can do is you can get to understand what motivates them, what they want.

You can set realistic expectations. You can not lie to them. You know, you can, you build the, you build the program based around what they're kind of North Star is, what they actually want to achieve, what didn't work for them in the past. You get to know, do they have any injuries? Do they have any complications? Do they have any kind of, you know, things that you spoke about on the weekend, like disorder eating or eating disorders um can you base all the stuff that they want around what you're

trying to create and can you give them kind of you know a realistic plan and you know what they should expect from day one in terms of professionalism i think i think that's more important as well not just saying all right oh you want personal training and taking their money it's like okay this is the plan this is this is this is where you're at this is realistically where we need to be and are the steps that we need to take in order to do that. This is what you probably can achieve it realistically, and this is probably what's unrealistic in this time frame. Because if you set unrealistic expectations from the start

and then they don't achieve it, then straight away, you know, they are demotivated, they're going to leave, and then they'll never get the results that they want. So I think creating a road map for them based around what they actually want and any kind of roadblocks, like creating some sort of a vision for them straight away, I think that's more important.

If you think about it, if you think about this in terms of any service, right, expectation is, is expectation and reliability is really important. Like when you jump in an Uber and you know it's going to take you 15 minutes to get to the destination and you get there in 15 minutes, you become a satisfied customer straight away. Yeah, well, I was going to say that before you said expectation. It's the combo of what they want.

and managing and managing their expectations. Yeah, they have uncertainty straight away because they've never worked with a personal trainer or maybe they've worked with a personal trainer who gave bad experiences. So right away, you don't have any, you don't have a relationship with them. You don't have any rapport with them.

So there's going to be uncertainty there. So the best thing that you can do is create certainty by creating actual realistic expectations of where they are and where they need to be and what's going to come in their way whether that's, you know, yeah, you want to achieve, you know, X amount of kilos lost in 12 weeks, but realistically you haven't been thinking about the fact that you have a birthday, a holiday, a christening coming up, that you haven't been consistently training,

or you've failed to train consistently for over the last two years. And that that's something that we probably need to, you know, focus on building, you know, foundations in regards to your training before then even looking at, you know, body composition goals and having maybe an honest conversation with them on that before and even promising them anything in regards to the results. Yeah. Yeah. I was just going to, I think you kind of touched on it anyway, but the expectations, like

working at what their expectations are and trying to manage them without belittling them for sure. And obviously discussing their expectations of you as a coach as well. So like knowing what each other's going to get from each other, I guess. Yeah, bingo. Yeah. What habits do good trainers have? Like what are some habits that trainers consistently have when working with people?

I don't know any good trainers, so I'm not too sure. Sorry, saving that one up. Ask the question again, what habits do good coaches have? What are some good habits that good trainers consistent? have. Behaviors wise, which might be the same thing. I think honesty, and this is behaviour again, it's not really a habit, but the habit of being honest about things. And like, if, if a, if a, let's go the opposite. A bad trainer might lie about how. Now we're going to get the

bad trailers. I'm sorry, sorry. Sorry. No, you're right. You're right. So you're no, go on. You had it. You want me to say? I thought he was talking Go on Rob Just in terms of bad trainers Like advertising how Where they've gotten to When it's not actually the way they've gotten there

Like false advertisement Is like a really bad A bad coaches habit I reckon Do you know do you want to know I'm not saying that I'm a good trainer But do you want to know some habits that I implement weekly So I'm

would always, like a habit that I would always do as a trainer and that I would encourage any trainers to do is that I can sit when someone's shown up for a session, I consistently tried to meet them at the door. So I'm the first face that they see so that they have a welcoming face to come in. I would always try and celebrate wins as quickly as possible. And the smaller, the better. So consistent little wins, whether that is, you know, your squats improving. You're getting better depth, you know, celebrating the fact that they've trained three times a week where they've gone from zero sessions to three sessions, you know, celebrate the fact that they're prioritising protein, you know, celebrating the fact that they're showing up even though they're

tired and now they're going home in a better mood and that's, you know, rippling into all areas of their life. It means that they're, you know, showing up as a better mum, a better dad, a better partner, you know, constantly reminding themselves that, you know, beyond scale weight beyond them metrics you know they're building all these little wins that are compounding them into transforming into the person that they actually you're you're highlighting your high highlighting markers of progress that they don't take on board

like I've I had a client the other day that thought they did a shit session and I was like every single thing you've done today is a PB that's why it might feel shit because it's been it was tough and I'm like but yeah me telling them, John, it's great that you're still here, even though you didn't want to be. You know, you are getting better at being more consistent with

multiple meals throughout a day, all that stuff. It's reminding people the little wins are the things that make the big results. They should celebrate small things. Yeah. Did you ever play them computer games where you have like the ability, I think pro-evolution soccer had it

where you've got like... My friends. Got like a polygon in it that kind of stretches out to speed and strength and things like that. Basically, the smaller it is, the less of the ability you've got. Some people will be focusing on that corner kind of going out towards strength, but they're not seeing it move as quickly as they want,

and they're kind of ignoring the fact that their shape is getting bigger because it's reaching out towards I'm a better parent. I've got a bit more money. I've got whatever it is, like all of those things combined. So yeah, rather than basically redirecting their focus onto every aspect of life. What I also think makes a good trainer is, you know, focusing on the independence of the, of the client. So like if someone's trained with you for the last six months and they know nothing by the end of the six months in regards to they still need you after six months, there's a difference between needing you and wanting you. Like if you you want to train with the person because you enjoy it because you, for you get many different benefits out of it.

but needing to train with you because they still don't know or understand the exercises or why they're doing them exercises or having the ability to do it on their own. I mean, like, what have you been doing over the last six months? Like the whole idea is that you get a personal trainer so they can teach you a skill that you can do for the rest of your life. So if you don't know how to deadlift, you don't know the name of exercises, you don't understand sets and reps and RIR and you don't understand why you should be, you know, track in progress and progressive overload and,

And like if you don't understand any of these things by the end of, you know, six months, a year, a year and a half with a trainer, then you're essentially what you're trying to do is you're trying to keep that person there for the rest of your life to pay you by, you know, being dependent on you. And I think that's, you know, you're not really doing your job. Like you should be thinking about your job as like, I'm here to teach you a skill. So then you can go off into the big, bad world and do it yourself. I always say in consuls in the politest way I want you to fuck off yeah you want like it's you know yourself

it's it's it never feels good don't when a client finishes up because you've gotten to know someone on such a such a deep level but them being in a place where they can say

I'm going to go on my own now and do this is fantastic yeah that's the whole that is the whole point and you will have you will have clients that just don't want to yeah I don't I don't even I wouldn't even

I wouldn't even go as strongly as saying I want them to fuck off. I just want them to know that they are able to fuck off and they'll be okay. Yeah. Well, I go with the fuck off. Yeah, fair. Just fuck off, please.

No, yeah, you're just politely fuck off. Yeah. But I think that's an important one is giving them the tills. And then I also think another one is, you know, making sure that there's clear progress tracking. Like, like, do we have objective data. I know there's so many things that are subjective as well like that, like there's so many things that you can't measure in personal training and like, you know, this person is a better person to be around.

They're more patient. They're in a better mood. They're better with their family. You know, they feel more confident on a night out. They feel more confident in work. Like all them things are very difficult to track, but you should be able to track as a personal trainer, you should be able to track objective data that yes, my fucking squat has gotten stronger. Yes, my range of motion has improved. My mobility is improved and I'm able to run a 5k without getting out of Brett and my time is sped up like you know I'm I'm I'm tracking objectable data and you know it's clear to see that this is where you started and this is where you are now and yes you've made progress because otherwise what what are you doing what about just to be devil's advocate there

yeah if you focus so much on those of values of like, okay, my spot's here, my running times here. Over those five years, you make a ton of progress and then break a leg. And then obviously that is a kind of a harsh reset. But if they then go back into training, they're like, I'm nowhere near even where I started with the training and stuff, that is, I mean, I know you said it's hard because it's subjective, but that's where the subjective stuff

needs a bit more of a highlight, I think, is... Yeah, but that's a false dichotomy because it's not one or the other. Yes, correct, yeah. So I think as a good trainer, you should have objective data and you should have subjective data. But again, it's harder to track the subjective data,

but you can talk about them little wins during them conversations about, you know, you wore that dress out that you wouldn't have worn before or that you know you you were confident to wear a bikini on the beach or shorts on the beach and whatever whatever it is or you know you've improved your relationship with you no longer demonised food at the table in front of your kids or whatever it is like and explaining how important them wins are i think it's both i don't think it's one or the other yeah same yeah i think a bad coach

could literally well depends on what the actual outcomes are like if you're a coach for an athlete that is literally required to hit numbers. Obviously, a bit more of a focus, but you still want to focus on their human development than their personal. I think even for an athlete, even if numbers are meant to be the focus, you need the other side of it as well

because they are also more prone to getting injured. And when an athlete gets injured, it's not right to say it hits them harder, but if their job is that and hitting numbers and hitting targets, that's out the window. then you better have been looking after the other side as well. Because that's very similar to someone that has an active job,

maybe as a builder or something, breaking their leg at work, they can no longer build it. It's affected their livelihood as well as their gym journey. So yeah, like professional athletes or people that do need their bodies to do their work. When I destroyed my shoulder, man, it was tough. Like I spent nine months not being able to lift my arm away from my waist. and it was difficult to remind yourself of all the pros.

I was growing my business, Joe. I was working on food relationship. I was in and out of therapy. I still had the use of the rest of my limbs. You could start running. Yeah, I didn't. But, like, it was still, it was still tough. You know, like, you're missing an arm, you know.

It did make life a lot tougher to do things. like I struggle to wash myself. So like you have to remind yourself then of, oh, well, you know, I'm getting better with my meals, but like I can't, I can't drive my car. I can't get a T-shirt out of my own. So it's, there's a question. Here's a question for you on the back of that. So when is it a, so what we're essentially talking about here is mindset, right?

So when does the line between a personal trainer helping their client with my client, mindset, you know, go past their qualifications. Because are you a personal trainer or are you, you know, a psychotherapist? Well, I think it's clear when someone needs to go to, they need to go to therapy. Might not be for a bad trainer? Well, I can only talk about myself. I, like, I would direct someone towards talking to a professional. So here's where, we don't get into certain things.

Here's where I would say that the line. gets past in terms of an example is like, okay, a personal trainer who, you know, who, you know, sells mindset coaching. And, you know, they can,

you know, fix your bingey and disorder with their, their 12 week, you know, transformation. You're hitting, you're hitting multiple things there then. Yeah. But do you know, do you see where I'm coming from there?

It's like, oh yeah. You're like that, that, them things happen. happen. But we know that. We know that. That's the problem. People don't see that's, it's the problem when we've grown up, when we've grown up without

like being taught these things kind of things in school or being taught around these subjects. It's hard to spot the charlatans then. Because everyone wants to, like anyone that buys like an 8 to 12 week mindset thing that will help with your disease, eating disorder. It's because they want fucking help. That's why you're going to believe

in it, you're going to buy it. You know, it's why those products are those programs and all that stuff, it sells. That's the reason. And like, not the access to different mental health services

isn't that accessible for everyone. And then we also, you could also round this up in regards to what we spoke about at the start, which you know, is like exercise is therapeutic or exercise the gym can feel like therapy. But then you could have a trainer who, let's say, you know,

they're having a consultation with someone and, you know, it's quite clear that this, you know, person has mental health problems that need to be addressed. And they are essentially claiming that, you know, they can solve their mental health issues, you know, with their 12-week program or with their personal training service because they believe that, oh, you know, you're not depressed, you just need the exercise. I think that kind of links to something someone said over the weekend or a few people said, if a coach is dealing with absolutes or trying to sell absolutes, there's probably an issue.

That's a very good red flag for, that's a very good point for, you know, the red flags of a personal trainer is absolutes. Yeah. Yeah. If they're like, I will fix you or I will like, get you from this to this black to this white or this yes to this year no you will

lose 10 KG in six weeks I will fix your binge eating disorder you will yeah whatever it is yeah it's gotta be word it could or the benefits of this could be

and we'll work towards hopefully getting into this position I know it's a bit airy-fairy but you can't really you can't really say I will I will do this. It's like a doctor saying, I will save your life.

Like legally. You can't promise results based on, you know, something that's out of your control. And it's out of your control what the person that signs up to you does. You can create the environment for them to try.

You can give them your knowledge and your expertise and you can keep them accountable and you can support them. And all them things will probably transition into them getting the result you want. But if you're guaranteeing the result, you're essentially lying to them because they also are in this, you know, contract slash commitment. Yeah, you've got two transient world together. You can't predict what's going to happen in both, can you? Well, all you can do is

hand them over a toolbox. You know, if they see you for two or three hours a week, you know, they have 23 hours in a day every other day to do whatever whether they do it or not I see my physio once a week I don't always do my rehab that's not his fault that's my fault

yeah another one that I would think of and this is probably I'm probably going to catch myself out here but like you know if you're if you're setting a client up or you're getting them to do things and there's a difference between them feeling confident

and them feeling pressured. And obviously now I, my members would probably say that I pressure them into doing things like a race or a hike or something that they feel like they're not, something that it's very anxiety inducing, whatever the challenge is for them. But I always feel that I know that,

okay, this person is physically capable of doing it. just have self-dough and you are there to push people out of their comfort zone but then you also have the flip side of that where it's like personal trainers are pushing their what they want someone to do and they're essentially pressuring them to do it like you could get a personal trainer as like oh yeah you should do a photo shoe but they don't want to do a photo shoe or they don't feel comfortable doing a photo shoe but that personal trainer knows that well i can use this to market my service so i'm going to pressure this person into doing it. And it's coming from a self, a self-interest.

Does that make sense? Let's take you so as an example, Carl. I don't think you kind of pushing your clients towards doing a high rock, a trika or just going out doing, was it, did you do Glendalock there the other weekend? I don't, I don't think pushing your clients towards doing something like that is anywhere near the same as getting them to do a photo shift. No, no, no, it's not. But it's all but it also could be

pressure as well. That person really doesn't want to do a high rocks. Yeah. And I'm like like, oh, I love high box. Yeah, well, yeah. Well, like, that would be then, that would be then the relationship you have with your clients.

Because I guarantee you, you have clients that you think would be very good in an event. And they've already told you to fuck off multiple times. So you stop. Do you know? So like, maybe. you need, yeah, eventually. Like it's not like you're not going to keep trying a little bit.

But like, you did the same thing for them in the gym. Yeah. How many times does a client look at a weight for a dead lift and go, oh, I can't do that. I'm like, well, let's just see. Yeah. I think you can do it. It's same, it's just a larger scale.

You're constantly moving it up because that's also your fucking job. Yeah. And I also love that me. I'm sorry to bring this back to me, but it was in my brain. It's like, I've been, what is it? I've been, in my, in my adult years, I've been more pressured to do a half marital than I was to take drugs or something. Do you see that mean?

Oh, it's, I think I did, I did a video on it. It was, I spent all my childhood, my parents, warning me about the peer pressure around drinking drugs. Nobody's giving me any of those. It's all just fitness events and running. Yeah, yeah. It's so true, though, isn't it? It is.

Where are all the free stuff? But I think, I think, right, your job, as a personal trainer then if someone has them limiting beliefs that they can't do it it's not that they don't want to do it they feel like they can't do it

and so therefore they're saying to themselves that they don't want to do it you have to create that confidence in them and give them that self-belief and obviously that comes through action of building up the wins over time yeah it's also a big reason

when I'm doing the run on Sunday you know like I have a couple of people that don't think don't think they can go do things like that and I'm like well if I can do it you can do it. I'm like I still have to do the same work just like I take the piss out of the time you're going to do yours in

and I'm like but you you put in the work to get there. It didn't just wake up in the morning and go I'm going to go run a half marathon and an hour and 25 minutes but fuck off but like you it is your job to push your clients that little bit if they really

don't want to do something like as a good trainer, you'll know. You'll know when it's time to back off. Yeah. Like, I wouldn't make any of my clients join me on Sunday if they didn't want to. I think some of my clients want to go and watch because they want to see me suffer that little bit. They're fucking payback for what me doing it during the week. But yeah, it is your job to kind of push people that little bit more into something.

Yeah, yeah. I'm just on Reddit here. and I typed in how to determine if a personal trainer is right for you and going on to I consider no interview before signing up a major red flag that makes sense doesn't it like not asking questions

about who they are what they want medical history physical limitations and yeah like that like that's that's pretty much a bit but we we touched on that as well another one was training with them I consider no warm up or cool down a major red flag and always takes notes provides proper demonstrations of form and perform small adjustments to your form and comes to

the session with target goals for you to hit provides data physical physical visual progress and asks how you feel I suppose actually one thing that we didn't even touch on is like if your personal trainer is just trying to absolutely destroy you every session. Yeah.

Whenever I actually talked about the actual sessions themselves. I think that's become a big thing then for people that have worked with other coaches and they come to you don't the whole no pain no gain. Yeah. If I'm not in bits, I'm not

working hard enough. And I was like if you're always in bits you're never going to improve. I think that you do get trainers that do that because they want their clients to be crippled so they think they've worked all the time. Exactly, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like soreness isn't always going to be an indication of progress

and for you to think just because they're destroying you every session and you're coming out absolutely in bits that it was a productive session. Like obviously when you first start you're going to have a bit of muscle soreness, it's a new program, you might have two-day doms, but I think that's all.

also important as well is that like you're finding that there's a bit of consistency in your training in your lifts and you up the ante you up the ante every every now and again you're going to feel that muscle soreness again if you could get

if you could get the progression kind of a chart from a from a coach that's client is sore all the time I guarantee you'd notice there's they're not improving Yeah.

They're just staying on a level. Yeah. I don't think is there anything else here that's a big... Sleeping with your clients. Yeah. I was going to say, if a trainer, this one here, look, if a trainer makes you uncomfortable because of physical contact, say so immediately.

Most trainers will be surprised immediately. Apologize and take this moment as a learning opportunity. Touching can be very useful for cues. Not everyone was taught right. If they don't take the hint after repeated verbal warning, then stop immediately and report them you'll be protecting yourself future clients and the trainers pairs in the industry yes rob i think like you said they're repeated i feel like even once or twice is enough like it doesn't need to be i guess you if it's your in your habit

in your nature to be like i should be feeling it here and you're up a back or something that i still i wouldn't personally touch someone unless i said to the can I just like point out where you should be feeling this right now or something or potentially feeling it. You can also you can also point out to your, point out to yourself. I had a client tell me about a coach who was showing them where they should feel is in their glute by grabbing them and they were like,

how would you show me? And I was like, like this. And I put my hand on my own ass. And I was like right here. Like that's how easy that is to show someone where they could feel it. You don't have to fucking touch anyone. Yeah.

In regards to that, I think that's crazy. But I'm also very like, I hug my clients before they come in. Hugging is different. We're talking about grabbing someone in a certain way during a workout. And then maybe if they're doing, let's say, a Bulgarian spit squat where you're trying to get them to hinge their hips back rather than drive their knee forward, I'll put my hand in front of their knee so they don't use knee flexion and instead they sit their hips back. also different.

Yeah. Other than that, then I use a big wooden stick. Yeah, you just hit them from a distance. Yeah. No, I literally do walk out of a big wooden stick. I think that's the, you get to a level as a personal trainer. You need a good stick. Yeah, I do.

I have a wooden stick and I use it. I honestly use it for, especially like or dals where they're like squatting more than hingeing. And I just put the stick in front of their knees and say, stick your fucking ars to the back of the room. I'm bending your knees. But yeah. I mean, other than that, and then what else? I suppose if they're using, this is a good one, if they're using, like, guilt and shame to motivate you.

Yeah. Yeah. That's, I, yeah, I don't like that one. I've seen coaches, won't name names, obviously, but I've seen them the way that the interaction, might not necessarily mean it, but the way they speak to them is, it's belittling, it's patronising,

it's, it's, um, Yeah, it's belittling their beliefs. You should be having a conversation about it and trying to like, if you strongly believe that something they're saying is wrong, I don't personally think you should outright say, you are wrong. Even if it's,

even if it's something like that could be harming the health or something, it should be a free-flowing conversation that's not going to get their backup and get them rejecting you. Yeah. I remember I've seen a trainer I know from Manchester and he kind of went viral.

And so the thing is people love this because they don't understand it, especially the general public. But whoever the person was, they hadn't been to the gym or they didn't go to class. And like he put in a big voice note basically saying how his or her boyfriend left him

and you said you want to this, blah, blah, blah. And like, yeah, he put on the whole spiel and it was like three minutes long. And then he obviously posted it. And everyone absolutely loved it. they're like, oh, where do I sign up to this guy? I need this. Because people think that they need to be shamed into motivation

and to train. And I think they need that. You know, you always hear that common thing. It's like, I just need someone to follow me around and slap food out of my mouth. Do you know what I mean? They're actually looking for that. But they don't realize that.

That's actually not what they need. Yeah, so if someone taking even more control away from their life, so that when they're away from that person, and they feel even more lost. That's such a good word of control. That's exactly what I was trying to elaborate. That's what it is, isn't it? Do you imagine going into a gym

and have someone just roaring at you? Roaring and shouting at you during a session and calling your names? I think I genuinely probably would cry at one point if they shouted at me. Probably fuck the dumbbell at them and be like, I'm leaving. Yeah, but then again, I would, I do like, I do like the experience

of like going into like, an aggressive boot camp like where like people are screaming at you and you're training and but I wouldn't want that every single day I definitely wouldn't want it from my personal trainer no and you wanted on days you're doing well yes yeah yeah yeah you already have a degree of like oh I'm I'm I like challenge and I have confidence and do you know what I mean I've built myself up to a certain point where so you're looking for something that's really gonna like the people that are looking for that are already yeah yeah yeah

tapped in it. Yeah. They're looking for a different minute. It's like I'm feeling stable today. I want someone to bully me a little bit. Come on. This is regrets. Yeah, it's like an extra caffeine, isn't it?

Like you don't really need pre-workout until, well, you can take it whenever you want. I won't tell you when to take it. But I personally don't feel the need to have it unless I'm going for a day where I really need a bit of extra push. And I think the boot camp shouting thing is probably that. Like you're at a certain level. now and then you want this extra boost to take yourself to another level

just to show you can. I needed Carl to bully and guilt me into a run in Bali and I'm glad he did but I was in a very good place then. If he had done it in it, if he had done it another time I would have fucked something out the window at it.

There was one more, there was one more like good one here about how you know it's a good personal trainer there but I can't I can't really find it. I suppose another good one would be also being able to adjust the plan.

Like let's say you understand that, you know, you had a client to was, you know, sticking to a certain amount of training sessions or whatever, but like something changed. Maybe they lost their job or they got a new job or,

you know, one of their kids is back home or I don't know, whatever it is. Like you're able to adjust the plan. So it's like, okay, we need to, you know,

make sure we're continuing to stay consistent. with something, but it might be at a smaller dose and that's absolutely fine as well. Yeah. Or if they walk in in the morning and you've planned a session and they have some sort of niggle that you can jump right there and then turn the whole workout around. I actually quite enjoy that. I quite enjoy when someone comes in and is like, I don't know if I can do that today. And I'm like, fantastic.

Let's just go on the fly. Let's see what feckin happens. Oh, I remember what it is. So a green flag is if you're a personal trainer. says, I don't know every now and again. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, we've heard that quite a bit. I don't know, but I'll find out.

Yeah, yeah. Or even I don't know and I'm not going to find out. Yeah, so honesty out the wazoo. At least I'm being honest, you know? Get onto Google and find it out yourself. Yeah, I like, yeah. Like, yeah, like I'm a personal trailer. I don't have all the answers.

and especially, you know, why that person didn't text you back. All right, you've figured that one out by yourself. But I tell you why I wouldn't have texted you back. Well, it was your tone of voice in the message and all, and there was far too many emojis. Yeah, and that exclamation mark really threw me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're coming on too strong for an avoidant like myself.

Thinking of, how's dating going, Carl? All right, we'll leave it there, folks. That's a great episode.