The Uneducated PT Podcast - EP 159: Paul Dermody — The Emptiness Of Overeating

Episode Date: May 18, 2026

Why do so many people spend their entire lives dieting, yet still feel trapped in the same cycle? In this episode, I sit down with Paul Dermody to explore the psychology behind eating, behaviour change, body image, and why so many of us try to solve emotional struggles with mathematical solutions. Paul shares the thinking behind his new book and explains why nutrition may be a hard science — but eating is a deeply human soft skill. We talk about shame, curiosity, emotional eating, calorie tracking, black-and-white thinking, and the “now or never” mindset that keeps people stuck in cycles of restriction and guilt. We also dive into:Why curiosity matters more than self-criticismThe hidden emotional drivers behind overeatingWhat people misunderstand about calorie trackingHow body image shapes behaviourWhy “the wagon” doesn’t actually existThe role of core beliefs and personal values in long-term changeEmotional nutrients and what we’re really hungry forLearning flexibility instead of perfectionPaul also shares deeply personal reflections on self-worth, body image, and the inner critic many people see when they step on a scale. This conversation goes far beyond weight loss. It’s about learning to understand yourself with more honesty, compassion, and awareness — instead of constantly trying to fix yourself. A thoughtful, powerful conversation for anyone who has ever struggled with food, body image, or feeling like they’re never quite enough.

One of the, I got this line from you actually years ago and I always use it. And I didn't, I don't think I've seen you write in the book, but you might have. So forgive me if I'm incorrect. But I think I remember you saying something like, you can't solve a psychological problem with a mathematical solution. But that's exactly what a lot of people, when they're trying to lose weight, that's what they try to do. Am I correct in saying you've said that before? Yeah, definitely. Well, it sounds like something I would say. Yeah. Yeah.

Is that what, like that kind of concept, is that what inspired the book? I suppose this is a two-part question. Is that what inspired the book? And then also, why was this the right time to write the book? Because I know, like, you've been writing for a long, long time. So why now? So the entire premise of the book was we treat nutrition like a set of hard rules, but I think it's more of a soft skill. And it's what I've observed throughout just 10 years of coaching. So I kind of want to, like you can't, you basically, you can't solve a self-worth issue with more calories and macros.

So I definitely said some version of the line that you said 100%. It just, it sounds like such a me line. The reason I wrote the book now of all times was honestly, I think there was a, Part readiness and part stop bullshitting myself. I think I had a, when I was a little bit younger, I think I had a, I'm 30, I'll do it when I'm ready, I'm 32, I'll do it when I'm ready. And to be honest, I got myself into a little bit of a cycle where I would write, get into a rhythm, maybe get 70, 80% of the way there. And then I would have this wave of doubt. And I thought, oh, well, this is abnormal.

I'll park it for a couple of weeks and months and revisit it. But that just became a cycle. And then I realized, do you know what, dude, you're going to have to do this kind of scared. and I just realized 35 years of age. Now is the time. Also, just one other thing was, I think part of the reason that it came out in this form and not the old form was I like to think in principles. Like, I like to think in such a way where what I say today will more or less be true

in 100 years. Whereas if I say to you, Carl, I think bananas are superior to apples, like, it literally is useless. I mean, it doesn't make a difference. but there's a million diet books that are quite like that. I wanted to be like, notice that people who are more thoughtful and who pause before they act

and who aren't black and white have a better relationship with food than those who are stuck. That's a piece of information you can begin to unravel. And I kind of wanted to write more along those lines. So soft skills rather than hard rules and hard science is kind of my motto. I'm going to start by asking you a question that you actually asked in the book,

because you said, why do some people spend their whole lives dieting yet never reach their goal? Why does it feel like the harder they try, the further they drift? I mean, the million dollar question, to put it simply, I think there's two main reasons. I think one major one is a sense of body dissatisfaction or maybe body anxiety where you start your goal from a place of I really hate my body. So then you go on a diet. but then the diet is too strict for real life and it increases the emotional value of food

so then it's now a tight rope you're walking then you do overeat and then you think oh my God I've messed up and then you obviously overeat for whatever few days, few weeks, two months, then you get back on the diet from that same place of I hate my body. So I think it's kind of like a two-prong piece

in a very simplified way. There's more to it than this obviously but if we've learned one thing we don't do nuance, we do absolutes. I think it's a sense of body dissatisfaction and then a sense of very rigid diet beliefs where you put food on such an emotional pedestal that it eventually comes catastrophically crashing down, so to speak.

Yeah. Where do them diet beliefs come from? Culture, social pressures. I think parents, or upbringing is a big one. I kind of always tend to think if you watch your parents speak poorly about other people's body, it's likely you'll probably speak poorly about your own or maybe you'll see other people poorly.

I mean look dude I don't know if I should post it but I have this Instagram piece that I've been sitting on posting for a bit where like I have three pictures of myself taken in the same month and I don't really die it like and in one of the pictures I look like bodybuilding almost stage ready

just because of the light another I look like I don't lift weights and then another it's just been caught when I'm doing a pull up mid rep and I look like I'm like in the middle of the two and part of me is like you don't do you have a really crap body image or are you just comparing yourself to shit online because if I put that picture up, I look like two different people. And I could easily do that, this is my six-month transformation by my blueprint. But no, they're taking like two days apart, dude, and the lighting was super flattering and not flattering.

So, you know, there's part of it where I think, and I think the book touches, I hope it touches a bit on that where it's, it recognizes the psychological struggles of people who have had very difficult past, very difficult upbringing. And then I sprinkle a little bit of humor of like, you're scrolling shite all day long. and you're wondering why you don't like your... Fuck did you think would happen. You say you talk about nutrition being a hard science, but eating being a soft skill. But can you elaborate on that for the listeners? Sure.

I reckon you have seen this before. I think most trainers who really care about people will have seen that. Look, I don't think there's a person on the planet nowadays, but I didn't think it back then either. They don't hire you for your wonderful knowledge on proteins, and carbs. Like no one's ever said, Carol Rourke, he knows the perfect ratio of banana to

protein for a meal. Like he just gets it. Nobody does that, right? The hard science is protein is four calories per gram. That's a fact. That's the hard science. The soft skills are what thoughts, how do I feel about myself? What thoughts flood my brain when I put food into my mouth. How do I feel about myself and my body? How do you know, I don't know if you notice this, Carol, but it's not even the things that you are aware of? What about the things that you're not aware of? You know, certain aspects of your own psyche, your own consciousness, or just your own behavior that you're not actually aware that make you behave a certain way. Like if you wake up on a Monday morning, you've overeating all weekend and you stand in front of the mirror and you're like, oh, I feel

awful. It is so easy to think, oh, God, I'm just going to go on a diet. I'm just going to skip breakfast. I'm just going to skip lunch and I'll have something small. And by dinner time, you're eating the house down. And even just becoming aware of that pattern that, you know, you're not going to solve hunger with discipline any more than you're going to solve a dislocated shoulder with discipline. I think it's actually a perfect analogy. If you said to me, you're, oh, I'm struggling. And I said, discipline, dude, discipline. I think that's the equivalent to be like, I can't hang from the bar. My shoulder is broken. But discipline. It's like, no. Like, my self-worth isn't strong enough to support this goal yet. And I need to build a sense of safety so that the

injured parts of me rehabilitates, and I say in quotation marks, so that I can develop a healthy foundation of self-worth. But I also don't really cross, like the work I do, I'm kind of a middle ground. Like I, I think you'll definitely understand what I mean, because you're so big on this. And I've seen you talk about this in the past. I believe weight loss and a healthier relationship with food can coexist. I don't think it has to be one or the other. Like I, I don't like when people use black and white absolutes. You know, most businesses fail is the lesson don't run a business. Like to me telling people, oh, weight loss is bad. it's kind of like treating dandruff with decapitation.

I'd much rather come along and say, actually, you don't have a foundation of self-worth strong enough just yet to support a weight loss goal. I've noticed you do X, Y, Z. Let's work on that. Let's build yourself, your self-worths, your self-esteem,

whatever it's going to be. And if you still want a reduction in calories after that, then power to you. Let's do it. So that's my like long-winded way of saying why I think it's more of a soft skill. Like I've never told anybody much about nutrition. other than yeah, potatoes or carbs,

but that ain't going to comfort you when you're tempted to like say, screw and I'm really stressed. Or like, have you tried just having a diet Coke instead of a craving? Like, nobody's hiring me for that anymore. Like, they're hiring me for like, I failed. And I was like, have you failed?

Or is it a case that what you think of as a step back is actually a powerful and necessary step on the journey of transformation? And then like, I'm obviously, I try and be lighthearted because I think humor really does bring the temperature down on this topic. But I will also remind people that like transformation to me is kind of like, intellectually it changes what you do, but emotionally it changes what you want to do.

Like I can't go back. That's my perspective. So like people, and I do get lovely compliments because I love learning languages and I love training bodyways stuff. Like Paul, you're so disciplined. Like I swear to you, it takes me no discipline. Like zero, zero. I just think it's cool.

That's as deep as this shit goes. You see me doing something cool in the park on a bar? because I was like, that looked awesome. I'm going to dedicate six months of my life. Like, so that's why I think discipline is kind of, it's what personal trainers who don't understand their own motivations say to people who don't understand their own motivations.

Yeah. Like, yeah, so I'm trying to essentially help people unpack their own motivation and say like, oh, actually every behavior you have as a motivation. Oh, yeah, but I like, I don't exercise and I don't eat well. Yeah, you might be motivated to avoid judgment or to avoid pain or to avoid failure. like it's a motivation so you're trying to shift people and this is so layer car i can talk about

this all day long this is the kind of the energy that i bring into all my clients and sometimes they're like dude shut up let me speak well i don't i don't want you to shut up i i think this is the conversation that's that's actually needed um but another thing that you um a word that you use in your book a lot which i think is a really important word is curiosity um and you touch on it you say about you know when no one teaches you to meet your struggles with curiosity and instead shame it's no wonder you turn to another diet can you talk to me

a little bit about curiosity and why that's such an important step in helping someone to either finally lose the weight that they need to lose or to have freedom in their food choices or both yeah I just think

it's everything in life man like when I look at all the cool things that go on in my own life it's honestly just because I was curious I'm not trying to in any way sound too simplistic but you know move abroad yeah I was curious what that would feel like you know if it doesn't work out with home uh quit the gym and start doing bodyweight training yeah just curious to see would I stay fit instead of going to the gym so I think there has to be an element of curiosity to the point where like people do ask for a very specific advice should I train a way to do this and honestly

I used to not be brave enough to do this but now I am where I'll say like I think you should X but it doesn't matter what I think because your own curiosity will take you to an exercise that you feel that you'll be drawn to. So I just think you can't go wrong if you follow your own curiosity. Let's say, for example, I've been dieting for 10 years and I can't lose body weight.

To me, what that suggests is I've tried diet culture's toxic recipe on and off, but until I can't take it anymore. So curiosity might be, okay, I noticed that you had seven cookies at lunch. Pause and just pause and ask yourself, do I want this cookie or did I just pass it seven seconds ago and I saw it at the office?

Like, that's the kind of curiosity. I'm doing this? What need am I trying to meet? Like, why do I feel that I need somebody else to tell me what to eat? Like, Karen, if I said I'm going to tell you what time to use the bathroom, like, that sounds so stupid, but yet if I said, I'll tell you what to eat, you could maybe half believe it. And I'm going to use a strange and a slightly crude analogy too. But like, and I have used this with clients in the past, but telling you what to eat, do this, don't do this, don't do this. And then kind of creating this kind of like anxious state in you, to me, it's the equivalent of, all right, I want you to be faithful to your partner. I'm going to staple your pants shut, tie your hands together, sell to have your mouth. It's like, how about we turn you into somebody that actually likes their partner enough so that they don't act on other temptations? Like that's the kind of the energy I want to

bring to the kind of the dialing world, which is, yeah, cake is great. You can't just fucking eat cake every time you want a slice of cake if you want to feel good in your own skin and in your own body. You can't just pass cookies and put your hand in the cookie jar. But from a place of compassion and kindness, can we take the fucking temperature

down on how serious this has to be so that you don't constantly feel like you're some defective idiot who can't get their life together. So to me, curiosity is more of a, why am I behaving the way that I'm behaving? And it could be something mindless like, you know what, Johnny had cookies. And it could be something a lot deeper. And I've had it in the past where, you know, I've had clients that have suffered, you know, unimaginable difficulties in the past. You know, I'm sure you can imagine what I'm alluding to.

And obesity became a safety mechanism. Like if I'm if I'm not physically attractive, I'll be safe. I don't, I will not have to deal with their advances. And it's funny how you get a client and you can tell that one person is just like, I'm just a bit of a cookie monster. And another person cannot see that for 20 years they've been keeping themselves safe in a very certain way. And you know, you're not a therapist. You're not here to diagnose anybody's mental health difficulty.

That's where you refer out. But I think that's the skill in loving coaching the way that we love it, which is when you really do care about the human in front of you, you'll see one person just needs to be a little more curious about why they eat too much sweet stuff. The other person can be shielding themselves from a lifetime of pain and their actual lack

of discipline can be so self-protective. Like, oh, I had a client tonight. She was telling me how she was like, I'll never crack this. I messed it up. This has to be hard. She's like, I just, I feel like this has to be harder. It's not working.

And I was just able to say, or look, that feels very self-protective. It's just if this has to be hard, then you've no reason to stick to it. And therefore you don't have to self-reflect when you let yourself down. And I could just see the wheels in our head going, fuck.

Yeah, I agree with you. So that curiosity to me is asking yourself the requisite questions. And do you want somebody, do you want a carl in the School of Fitness poking at you? Do you want to pull from the other side of a Zoom and Seoul in Korea poking at you? Or can you get there yourself?

That's my role of curiosity. And I said it to you before we went on, dude. Like, one of the things I admire most about you is you don't seem to lose your curiosity. You don't ever seem to lose that kind of humility when you speak on topics. And I think I just, you already know what's going on in here, right?

Yeah, well, that's why I look, like whenever I'm doing the podcast or I'm reaching out to a guest, it's always from a place of curiosity of, oh, I want to speak to that person, learn from them, find out things off them. And it always ends up with a positive experience off the back of that.

One thing I remember I was speaking to a therapist before, even about that topic that you were just touching on. And one thing that she said to me is that, oh yeah, that sounds like someone who had, you know, it was a positive intent with a negative consequence. And I think it's a great representation of, okay, yes, you're overeaten, but there's a reason to why you're overeaten. And, you know, it's a positive intent is that you were trying to protect yourself. and if you have that curiosity then you can say well you know now you i can i don't have to judge myself or beat myself up because i can understand i can give myself compassion because i understand what there was a reason to why i'm behaving in the way that i'm behaving even if i'm not happy with the behavior there was a reason for it oh man you're so right like who you've been like

helped you get to this stage it might have been survival and protection and it's no longer conducive of where you're going as well. And Amanda, do you know what? I think the people who need that message the most are least likely to be ready for the like drop the cruelty. And I'm not just saying that I think

the internet can be a very performative place, but it breaks my heart when I see people think that cruelty is the way to go. And honestly, because I just don't think it works. I just think it's wasted energy. It's not because like, oh, you poor creature, be kind. It's like, no, I actually think it's bullshit being hard. If I said to you, Carl, you're going to go to

tomorrow. You've your first client at nine, you idiot. And if you don't do a good job, you're more on which you probably won't because you always screw up, then you're going to take your second client, but knowing you, you won't even make it that fair because you're just an idiot. So you might as well quit. Now, like, nobody would tolerate that boss for more than it. People are being that boss to themselves when I'm working with them in terms of behaviour. It's like, why am I frustrating myself? And I'm like, well, let's see, you've told me that you're an idiot and that you failed for about 40 times already on this session. So maybe that's part of it. Can I ask you a question, Paul, off the

back of that because like when when you say it in that context of work everybody understands it so why is it in regards to food and weight loss that people don't seem to grasp that that you know having a personal trainer who's going to bully you and to stop eating or you know you they you always hear the phrase I just need someone to follow me around and slap food out of my mouth like why is it why is it why is it with food in particular that we don't grasp that concept believe it's a two-part problem. The first one is generally speaking. And I don't like to generalise because I've actually seen so many wonderful coaches, but I think there's a subset of the fitness industry where the message is literally shame. Like, you're horrific and you'd be less horrific

if you just did this thing. So I think kind of like the default motivation of a lot of the fitness industry immediately is kind of like some form of reward and punishment or kind of conditional self-esteem. So then let's say the parts of the industry, loud parts of the industry project the message of like fat is something to be shamed of and you're hideous and blah, blah, blah. And that's the first part is the kind of projection. The second part then to sound a bit technical is the project of identification, which is when a client picks up a message that already agrees with their own internal critics. So now they've taken that projection in as their self.

So let's say you talk to me about an insecurity that I have. Like I have a massive gap in my bottom teeth. And it's certainly in terms of my facial insecurity. it's the one I noticed the most. So if you happen to say, wow, guys with large gaps in their teeth, they're so ugly. And I'm already thinking that. I'm like, oh, my God, is everybody thinking that? Like, maybe everybody's thinking that.

And now you think about how layered eating in body image is. So let's say, I say, well, yeah, like, of course, like the fat person never stops eating. Some message like that that's been normalized rooted in shame. So let's say my body weight is higher than I would like. I go to a social event. I can't be seen eating. I can't be the big person eating dessert. I'm going to get the salad.

but of course I'm deprived and I feel unhappy. I wasn't able to connect with people. I was over-analyzing the food. I go home, I secret eat on cookies, things of that nature. So I think it's kind of a two-part prong of projection from the industry and then the projective identification from the person picking it up as their own.

And then their own inner critic is constantly bullying them. And I, this is one of those simple in theory, hard and practice things, but I try and ask people to like prospectivize it where your inner critic is really trying to spur you on. You're kind of terrified if you don't have it that you'll just sit in the couch and drink wine and eat crisps all night if you don't have something like saying, hey, get up, you know, but no, I really think it can be something as legit as I see Paul, I see Carl, I see what you're trying to do, you're trying to keep me safe. Look, it's not working. I'm going to take it from here. Because ultimately, the long and the short of this is the amount of stress about your calorie intake does not correlate to actual calorie intake. I'm sure you've seen that in the past from clients, which is, just because people think and ruminate and panic, it's not the same as actual control.

You can panic for, you can be, like, adherent for six and a half days and, like, have a really explosive binge on the half day that can completely knock you out of your calorie deficit right into a surplus. And then the meta layer on all of this is, I don't even like talking about calories that much. I think it's the least interesting part of coaching. I don't give a shit. I think when you sort out all the other crap, you kind of sort out the calorie thing.

So, like, people come to me and they're like, I over ate. and they can just see through my... I'm almost loaning my calmness, which I know I don't seem very calm. I am. I'm kind of like, you didn't shoot kids in a hospital. You didn't kick a puppy.

You didn't burn an orphanage. You ate fucking cake. My book editor last week sent me a clip of a podcast. It's Theo Bonn and some actor. I don't even know who the actor is. That's how bad I am for movies. But they were talking about getting into crazy shape of Hollywood.

And the actor dude was saying, oh my God, man. It's so miserable. It's like, do you have any idea how psychotic you have to be to go to your friend's birthday and say no to cake. And Pio Bonn is kind of like, yeah, like if I went to a birthday party and some guy said no to cake, I'd like, we need the weirdo. And it's hilarious when we talk about it, dude.

But like so many fitness kind of behaviors have kind of become disordered but normalized. So for me, a lot of the work then is to just hold up a mirror to what a client is telling me. And like, hey, this is kind of what you're telling me. I'd like to show it back to you. Like, what do you see? So I don't know if you see. see similar things. I know you're in the gym physically with people so you probably are working as deep on the nutrition side maybe. Yeah, it's, it's quite hard. I did use to do the, you know,

the one hour coaching calls and really kind of dive deep into, you know, getting them to question their own beliefs and, you know, wider catastrophizing around, you know, their food decisions or whatever it is. It's a lot harder now that I'm back on the gym floor because I will, you, you know, you get them certain phrases of people and you know straight away you have the blinkers on and you you want to go in and have that full conversation about that and it's difficult because you're also trying to run a full class going on and at the same time and that's why I still do the podcasts like this because okay I might not be able to be there to you know relay back the things that you've said about yourself but maybe you're going for your walk and you know you have your AirPods in and you're

listening to Paul speak now and you know things are starting to resonate and And you're like, okay, well, you know, I can figure out that. You know, maybe it's not the end of the world that I had that, you know, piece of cake at, you know, my daughter's birthday who I love and I value more so than weight loss. 100%. And it's just, it is really fork in the road. If you do eat something, you know, that little voice kicks in judging you. And then the fork in the road is, I'll start myself later.

I'll make up for this. Or the other side is there's nothing to worry about. just this choice now and just move on with my normal life. And that's kind of just from a technical 30,000 foot view, that's what I'm interested in is just getting people to change into that latter path. I wanted to talk about the pause. So there's this lovely story in the book where you talk about a woman when you were on your way from Dublin to Galway. And you say, at that moment, I realized her meanness wasn't malice.

It was pain and anxiety. A human shaken by loss. Can you tell us a little bit about that story and what it taught you? Oh, dude, I opened the book with a moment that really powerfully shaped me. And I didn't realize how. So basically, he got on the bus once he left, out of courtesy, I said, can I sit beside you? But it was a redundant question. She tutted, rolled her eyes, like, pulled her bag aside, like very audibly, you can, but I hate you.

And I sat beside her, and then she actually made me going to the inside seat. So then I had, it was the motorway bus, I had to use the Lou about halfway through, and I asked her, could I use the bathroom. And she kind of tutted basically suggested I was a nuisance. And I did, I used to be a mouthy little gobshite. And I've had a couple of close calls with people that have really put me back in my place. One with Road rage, but the other was with this particular one. So I kind of got back in again after going to the Loo. And again, she made a third song and dance about it. And I honestly, man, I was this close to just be like, will you chill the fucking beans, you miserable bitch? Like, I was that close. it wouldn't have been uncharactered me at the time to be, maybe not insulting, but a smartarse. But I can't tell you why. I vividly remember it. I just was like, you know what? Don't do it, dude.

Just not now. And then she was reading a book and she was trembling as she was reading. And I noticed she was getting more shaky. And I looked over and it was like, all these platitudes are like, you are worthy. You can do this. You are strong. You can do it.

I was like, all right, just whatever. But then we were getting off at the, there's only two stops on that whole Dublin to go a journey, the first of that GMIT. And I just said, hey, look, I got a, get out at this first stop but I'll be out of your hair and then she just honestly like she's just snapped back into reality she put her hand on my thigh and she was like I'm so sorry um my sister just died I live in Sweden I'm having the worst day ever like she's my last living family member and

I'm just I don't know what to do I'm so lost and I'm so sorry and I'm there like nearly tearing up listening to her and uh yeah I just I remember this vivid feeling of like oh my god it's not she's not mean she's in pain and I'm just at the wrong moment. And the pause, kind of, I've said, what has that kind of got to do with dieting? And it's, well, actually, no matter what, you will never regret pausing a few minutes before you're about to react.

Whether it's, you feel that intensity rise, and you just want to say, fuck this, I'm going to quit my diet, or whether it's I want to tell Carol, say, go fuck himself, or whatever it is. You know, you'll never regret taking a few seconds to think, is this the thing I want to say to the person? Is this the way I want to treat myself? Is this the way I want to behave?

And look, I get it. It's not always. as simple as this. But a very, very, very, very, very, very simple pause is just a little space between feeling and acting. And that space, like, is the magic. And the pause isn't a Paul dermily idea. It's more of, that's how I learned. Like, that's the pause, the power of just taking a few minutes and waiting. I honestly think waiting is a skill that just, I still don't do it perfectly in my own life, you know, wherever I'm bickering with my partner, we still, part of me, it's going, Paul, Ball, just chill the beans, pause.

But I've just seen how first-hand in that little space between how you feel and what you do, that's what I learned from her. There's a space between how you feel and what you do. And it has meant me a better person. That situation has been, I'm just so much more, I have my eyes open. My default assumption in the world now about people is slightly irritated rather than not a dick, or a complete dick, sorry. You know, I've never attribute to, what's that phrase you definitely know,

I would never attribute to malice. That can be for, is it ignorance, maybe? Ignorice, I think. Yeah. Or, yeah, I just, it would be lovely to walk through the world. Like, oh, people are bad. But no, people are going through a lot of shit. So yeah, that lady on the bus, a very emotional story for me because, like,

I had another incident of Rotary where I beat the horn. And the guy got out of the car. And I remember thinking, oh, he's going to kill me. And then he just calmly explained. I was in the wrong at the junction. And this was about 15 years ago now. And I just said, right, I'm never, I'm never losing my cool on the road ever again. So I've had two moments where a simple pause would have saved, did save me a moment of embarrassment in one case and would have saved me a moment of embarrassment in another case.

And I think if you just give yourself that little bit of space, man, you can, you can minimize a regret. It's a space to reflect before you react. Yeah, minimise regret is the key word, isn't it? Because I can think about my own life. I said most of the decisions that I regret come from. straight away reaction whether it's something that I said to someone that I love whether it's you know booking a flight without really taking the night to think about it whether it's like whatever like buying something outrageous that I could have said well actually do I actually

really need this maybe I'll just wait another day to think about and usually if you wait that other day you realize you don't need it and you know you don't need to spend that outrageous amount of money or whatever it is and yeah I I think when you're when it's a an emotional reaction. A lot of the times regret can follow. Oh, absolutely. And just take that a little bit of a space. Although I can't imagine, this is just me, though.

This is my buying. I can't imagine booking a flight could lead to too much regret. No, it depends who you're flying too. That's true. Are you a big traveler, no? I have done a good bit of traveling. I was in Vietnam. I know one of your favorite places in the world,

which I loved. I've been to Cambodia and Australia. Australia, the Middle East. I know you're in Australia. Yeah, I was in Columbia and Peru, which I absolutely loved. So I've done a bit. I wouldn't say I've done as much as you, but I definitely do value travel. It very much opened my eye.

I know that's such a cliche thing to say that it opened your eyes, but it's a lot of places. And I know a lot of times, you know, people travel to find themselves or to, you know, figure out their life for to change something, but they also forget to kind of change themselves. And that can be an issue, an issue as well, because you have to bring yourself with you. But yeah, I was that it was a question that I was going to ask you about travel. Do you think, because I know it's something that you, like, really value. When did you figure that out? And even in terms of, I was going to ask about Vietnam and about what you learned about maybe yourself and about the people over there.

and how has that been useful in regards to your coaching? I got a three-month leave Ireland ditch in 2018 and I'm still gone. So that will kind of give you an insight into how much I love it. We were home obviously for a year in Ireland because my partner's dad was ill and then he passed away. But besides that, we've been between Spain, Vietnam, Malaysia, Spain again. And so, you know, funny, you talk about travel changing you and I hate the cliches, one of the ways I create meaningful stories like Anne Lamott said something

to the effect of being a writer opened up her eyes to the world but for me it's been the very opposite like seeing the world made me a writer I have one instance I tend to form these really strange bonds with people even if I can't speak the language like my girlfriend will always joke

I might be walking down the street and then it might be some 70 year old and we walk by and we high five each other and she's like babe you're going to have to explain the high fiving the old man I'm like yeah we actually had a conversation in the shop earlier today like silly little things, but things that I love.

But I remember one little moment where one of the security guards, he must make no more than a dollar an hour. This shows just the level of privilege that your life has compared to someone else. He makes about a dollar an hour. I was coming home in a taxi. My note was too big for the taxi driver to break in for change. And the guy who worked on a dollar an hour saw me in the taxi, saw that I obviously couldn't pay the bill.

And he came over and he tried to pay it for me. this dude on a dollar an hour trying to pay for me who is a western people say expat immigrant man immigrant immigrant is what we are when we're in their country i'm throwing it out of there expat is what we call ourselves to make ourselves feel better yeah we're all one and i'm dying on that hill by the way so i'm an immigrant in his country probably making i can't even imagine how much more money than the guy he's on a dollar an hour and he tried to pay my taxi for me and i just remember going to dude like you are so kind now to be fair i was very generous and tip to him after that. So it was a good investment on his part.

But jokes aside, you know, you get moments like that that you just cannot learn in a book or that you just can't get in your own hometown where you see, like, I've seen wealthy people squabble over pennies. Like, did you pay the pie? And that's fine. Like, whatever. And then I've seen somebody who tried to pay my bill for me like that.

So I got a lot of insight into how generous. And that wasn't an isolated incident. I've seen such generosity over there. I've seen like playfulness. I think you touched on it. I read a post of yours a long time ago. Don't want to miss coach you but you said the connection piece from the online world back to kind of coaching was a huge part for you that like i think you said like again miss quoting you building an online

presence is all great and all that but it actually hadn't it was climbing a hill but then realizing that the people were actually that that that's fair right absolutely absolutely fair yeah yeah and in a in a kind of similar way i got just more lessons about how there's so much kindness and generosity in the world i know a lot of people have a very dark and bitter view of the world like I kind of look at a lot of stuff online, gender wars, whatever, and think like, I don't know what utopia, you people are waiting for it. There's always going to be shit in the world, but there's so much kindness. There's so much joy and wonder.

Like, I've seen such acts of beauty that I'd actually, I keep little notebooks in my, so again, from book stories. So travel has changed me in the most cliched ways where I've just realized how, too, that Irish. What did I do to be a sperm cell in Ireland in 1989? why was I in my dad and not in someone in North Korea? Like I was in the North Korean border yesterday and I was just looking over the thing into North Korea. I seen that and even as when I seen you post,

I was actually the first thought that came into my head as well like you, something that you just don't have a choice on is where you're born and like the how that's going to play out how how your life is lived is fascinating. Dude, we were going to go to one

and it's closed off for the last few years. It's closed off because last time somebody, it's a fence. It's a kind of a part of the border that's blocked off by a fence, but the fence wasn't long enough to go the whole way. And there was a woman out walking. And she didn't realize that the, because the fence stopped,

but the borders still technically existed. She didn't realize she was crossing it. And she got shot killed. She got shot dead and killed. Just an innocent South Korean woman who just walked too far so they kind of shut that part out for us now to visit. So like you just, you hear, this is my perspective is you hear enough stories like that. You see enough things. Like,

I was in the Philippines. Like, I saw poverty on a level that I honestly, I thought I'd never see in my life in certain parts of the Philippines. So you said a lot of people travel and maybe don't change up cells. I absolutely agree. You kind of see unimaginable suffering and then you see unimaginable kindness and you see a lot of love and you see a lot of joy. You know, that'll, if money made people happy, the rich would dance on the street, but only the poor people do that. Those are the things that it unfortunately they're cliches for a reason dude i just think that the real thing is can you be humble enough to actually stop and pick them up when you see them so i've been i've been very lucky with the experiences i've had and um yeah it's just it's giving me such an appreciation like i used to be

the kind of person that like i don't love living in ireland because of the cold but i used to be the kind of person that would bash Ireland like oh high taxes and blah blah and then you just see enough of the world i was like you know what my comfy little house in the west of ireland on the course not looking too bad anymore you know i always think that as well and i always try to challenge challenge myself and think like or can two things exist at the same time that like i can complain no this is this is this is this is this is this is this system is flawed but also i'm living in the best time ever in humanity and i have hot water and i have you know a roof over my head and like i can just get food delivered to my door and i'm like what like is it it's kind of hard

to juggle them to ideas at the same time that there could be unbelievable corruption in the world and also you're so blessed to be living in the world that you're living in. And how many generations is genuinely hot water? Three? Four.

Three? Maybe two? I don't know. I just think about that kind of stuff too. I unfortunately am the walking travel cliche that comes back in every cliche you've heard. It kind of is true. But I do. I feel affected

and I feel very moved by it. And it does, it makes you very grateful, but it also like, very fortunate to be able to pursue more. Like I'm lucky to be able to work in a first world capitalistic country and make a few bob for myself. And you know, you don't take it for granted. I think a lot of people use it to form very negative views in the world. Yeah.

But I just, I don't, I just don't see the value in being the starving artist. Like why wouldn't I create wealth and, you know, good life for myself and then try and do good with that? So I've seen a lot of people kind of talk about the inequalities of the world. and then kind of have a really low, low beat perspective and talk about how evil and money is evil and is that and the other. But no, if you've been blessed with an opportunity and you've maybe got a special talent or a gift

or something that makes if you quit, take advantage of it and then go and do good in the world. When COVID hits, for example, our tour guys literally text me saying, we have no money, we have no food, a communist country. So I sent him a few pennies on PayPal, believe it, or not. My sister found out about it. She sends him a few pennies on PayPal. So like little things that where it's all well and good to come on a podcast. Like, oh, I saw an imaginable pain. And then go back

to my nice little life and stuff. But then you kind of realize, oh, my God, I have this incredible piece of technology. And it makes you very grateful that you're able to send someone 100 quid, 200 quits or 200 quid, whatever it is. And it's going to last him like six months of COVID because he lives in the schicks in Vietnam. Anyway, I don't even know how I got talking about that. No, that's okay. I love, we, we, we, We like side tangents on that. Like I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was probably better off.

No, please do. I know I, I, I, I, I, I suppose it's probably, it's probably, it's probably an interesting concept to think about, especially the fact that you were in between the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the prime example of that way with so Korea and North Korea. Yeah. Well, how, when, when, when, when, when, when you hear this. debate because I've had debates like this with my

my um you put a proposal the other day I was out about it was something about I might not agree with you but I will fight for your right to speak it right when I was learning Spanish my Spanish teacher and I we don't disagree on much she would have different views about the world

now she's a Colombian woman I'm an Irish man so it would make sense but we disagreed a lot of things things like socialism feminism things of that nature but we used to have like our one hour Spanish class genuinely turned into three, three and a half hour kind of coffee dates because we would be having genuinely interesting discussion. Then we kind of concluded like, we really do, like, our lessons turn into long things and we concluded like you're actually kind of a fun person to disagree with. Yes. So that was, that was a very insightful thing for me because you kind of have

impressions, because I was learning Spanish, what, seven years ago that like maybe people who think a certain way about the world are a bit crazy or things in that nature. and then you learn oh hang on i've just been a bit sheltered so yeah i i completely agree with that and i i think it's also easier to to have them conversations slash debates and it to be a lot heated when it's someone that you know and trust for a certain reason or maybe it's a loved one like i disagree with my brother and my dad on most things like political or but you know i also know that i can go and play tennis with my brother and that my father brought me up and I'm not going to, you know, take his, uh, you know, viewpoints and think that he is a terrible person and that, you know,

he doesn't deserve to live. But then if you go on social media and, you know, someone disagrees with you and you can, you just think, all right, that person's the cut and they, and they tried to shut down a conversation. And, you know, maybe like the medium is important as well. It's like, when you're speaking to someone face to face like you and your Spanish shooter are speaking to easier face to face you see a human in front of you and it's a lot easier to converse and disagree while still having mutual respect for each other. I think we've probably lost that a lot with social media as well. Oh totally. I saw a theory recently something like the everyone is a child theory online just treat everybody online as if like they're a child or

something to that effect where they're just hungry and they want some food or whatever and that's the nasty comment. I probably shouldn't speak about it because I didn't get a chance to probably digest it. But you know, when you see something and it immediately clicks that, yeah, social media is probably not where I'm getting illuminating discussion. It's cool to share ideas with and things of that nature and I love that. But you're right. There's a certain nuance. But like, I mean, the power of disagreement is absolutely crucial, dude. Like, even on a client context, I'll say something to a client where like, like, I think you should stop weighing yourself. No, I want to. And I kind of, I've already assumed the position I'm probably right on this. I'm like,

well, I think it's become a form of external validation. And the clients will be like, they'll be able to articulate impressively why, no, I actually think this doesn't affect my mood. This affects my mood or something to that effect. So, you know, there is a, there is a dynamic when you're having a face-to-face discussion where it's like, oh, yeah, maybe I'm, maybe I'm not as correct as I thought I was in this one. Whereas in a common section, you're just immediately defensive. It's like, all right, let me, you know, let me tell you why I, that makes, see, do you think, in terms of like a coaching perspective for the coaches listening to this conversation, that's a mistake that can come up is that you have a certain bias to a certain way of coaching

because you've seen it work time and time again. And then you fall into that trap of thinking, okay, well, I'm right. I'm right about this client, even though that client is going to know themselves better than you know them. 100%. The writing reflects, I believe it's called the tendency to try and write a problem, think we're right. yeah like I think it can happen for sure I do think I do I'm very wary by nature of somebody who says this is the wisdom this is the this is the this is the wisdom you listen to me and that goes for everything by the way like I I stopped using transformation before and after photos somewhere around 2020 2021 something around then because I didn't want to contribute to the societal pressure men and women have to look a certain way I have softened my position I haven't changed my position that is where I see it right? I've heard people come and say, well, before and after photos contributes to bodily dissatisfaction, so never use them. And I kind of almost want to say, well,

91% of business has failed, therefore I never start a business. I mentor a guy. He's going to the top. He's going to be one of the top transformation coaches out there. Before and after photos, he's having more fun than anyone I know. He lives and breeds body composition. He's not talking to me or Johnny emotionally. And I do think we've lost the power of actually why don't you discern the information that's for you? Like, I'm a big believer that actually sometimes removing the trigger isn't always a wonderful thing. Like, don't pursue weight loss to like yourself.

It's a bad move. Don't get rich and wealthy to like yourself. It's not going to work. But if you'd like to be leaner to do your first pull-up to feel like you've achieved something, to feel good in clothing, I can support that. It really depends. So to me, I do think as coaches, we all have the ability, as humans, we all have the ability to mistake our 80% or sorry, our 0.001% perspective is 80% correct, if you get me, we think we know the world better.

But just by nature, if anybody presents an idea to me and says, this is the answer, this is the wisdom, this is the way it should be done. It's kind of like I've mentally discarded that person as well. I don't really trust you anymore. Or like, not that I think they're all wrong, but just. Yeah. Like do you think off the back of that, do you think then there is a responsibility on the person coming into your space? Because, okay, let's say I'm a transformation coach and I live and breed transformations and all my messaging is around transformations.

And someone comes to me for a transformation, but this person, you know, they're using the transformation to, you know, suppress, you know, self-hatred and all these things and there's there's red alarms and there's flags and there's like how much of a responsibility do you think should be put on the coach who you know their messaging is I'm not here to improve your relationship with food I'm not here to help you to heal your inner child I'm here to like get you shredded to the bone um do they have a responsibility then if someone comes into their space that you know probably wasn't the probably wasn't meant to be app. Look, my personal perspective is that the world and things we do tend to mirror back our internal state pretty much all the time. So I would love personally if as an industry

we get to a place where no matter who you are, you can recognize the signs of disorder eating quite quickly and be able to say to someone, look, I want to get people's shoulders popping out their skin. I don't think I'm going to be a good fit for you. I would love that. I think it's necessary. I also believe people need to use better discernment when looking at who is for them. And it's not because I think that that's the case, to be honest, Carol, it's just I think it's more of an inevitability.

Like, like, when I loved bodybuilding, and I didn't love it for very long, but when I tried bodybuilding, like that was, I wasn't a PT when I was a bodybuilder, but I was getting people asking me all the time for fitness advice.

And I remember thinking, like I just exercise and diet myself into the ground like this. Even back then, I honestly had the self-awareness to people from work a message going, hey, you're looking shredded and ripped. What do you do? And they're like dieting until I can't stop thinking. about food and training twice a day, like, don't do this.

Don't do this. And then there's an element of I became a personal trainer, et cetera. So I'd love to see a bit more disordered eating awareness. I think it's necessary. It would be lovely if people say, actually, you know, I don't have the skills for you. And I do this still where my skill set doesn't lend itself to what you want. I get the odd inquiry where people say, like, oh, I need someone to shame me and to, you know, whip the pizza out of my hand.

I'm like, dude, I'm much more inclined to ask you, what was your favorite flavor of pizza, that kind of thing because like I just think life's too short. So I'm not going to be the most inspiring man on the planet if you're looking for that kind of motivational pet talk crap. But like if you do want to get very fit, very strong and not be having been lean rule your life. Like I think I'm actually a decent fit. But I'm always going to have a little bit of a perspective

that people need to use discernment to like just like you can. It's so much easier to put slippers on your own feet than it is to carpet the fucking world. and I do think a touch we've lost that personal responsibility narrative where we actually can kind of like overblame like oh it's us as individuals bear no responsibility I set up the Instagram account

I put a password in there I pressed the first thing that started the algorithm like even when people like oh my algorithm was all disease years back I think it's a bit harder now my algorithm's all fitness bodies and I'm like I'm in the fitness industry and my algorithm is lean and Lamesi putting the ball in the top bins. Like, I'm,

choose different people to follow. I don't know. I don't know what to advise you. So, but I do think that, that kind of tough love with a cuddle has kind of been lost a little bit, which is, yeah,

sometimes you do stupid things. And, you know, when you choose the fucking stupid thing, you get stupid consequences and maybe don't do that. Yeah. Well, I suppose that goes back to what you,

you're even talking about, finding that middle ground and that nuance is that, okay, sometimes you need to focus on personal responsibility. And sometimes you need to focus on personal responsibility. And sometimes, you need a lift off the ground from someone?

Yeah, I think so. I always think, I love people who are the contradiction. I love people who are in the middle ground who just, it's just such a wise perspective, you know, being hard to predict, you know, that kind of thing. Even back when I was, we're 29 years old coming out of the whole bodybuilding thing, I swear to you, man, I used to have people sign up for coaching with 100, 200 pounds to lose and all of them said the same thing, like a 28-year-old lean, like Fitlat, Lat, I shouldn't relate to you more than I relate to anyone else, but it is you that I trust.

And I'm kind of there going, do you know what? I'm not looking at a heavy person of skin. You're just, you're safe to be human with me. You're just like, you can be a human. We're all dark. We're all a little bit muddy. We're all a little bit fucked. You just happen to have weight as your current problem.

None of us are too pretty under the microscope. Like you put me, you put me under the microscope in my worst moment. I'm going to look like a horrific person. All of us do. You just happen to be struggling with weight. So I do think there's a certain element of, um, when people feel a sense of safety around a person. You've created something special.

That's why I think my business has always done really well. There's just kind of a, I'm not dealing with heavy obese people, emotional eating, even I talk about it. I'm dealing with people who have survival strategies that I'm, and I'm just really interested in it. You said it earlier so perfectly. Not everybody's going to heal your inner child and talk to you about the deep inner wounding, but I want to.

That's what I love doing. And it's like, oh, where did you learn the shit? I didn't learn curiosity. I can't help but want to understand people. It's like an impulse that I have, which is someone says something. I'm like, no, I don't believe that there's something going on and you're lying to yourself and tell you stuff. And then you know what, Carl is something that I found fascinating is the very way people try and avoid a feeling or problem is the exact way they create it.

Like the very way. It's like a perfect formula. And I've seen this. I'm going to put out an absolute, which I generally don't like doing, but I'm going to say it. And I want to, I'm challenging you to come back at me in a couple of days and see if there's any problem. But if there's a repeated pattern in your life, a repeated recurring problem that you're trying to solve, there is a specific feeling or an emotion or something that you're trying to avoid. And in the avoidance, you're accidentally creating it. So give me an example. You're ashamed to your body. And you think, well, I'm just not going to go out with my friends. I'm just going to stay in and comfort it instead. So you've tried to avoid the shame by avoiding your friends and going out and then you've eaten and you've created more shame. Or like, let's say you're afraid of conflict. So, and I'm bling. 10 minutes of this and you're afraid of conflict. So instead of saying, Paul, you're late,

I don't like that you don't respect my time. It comes out passive, aggressive, like, oh, you wouldn't care anyway, would you? What's that supposed to mean, Carol? And you created more conflict in your fear of conflict. And so when I'm working with clients, we're trying to see where this cycle is in their life. What are you afraid of?

What are you trying to avoid? And notice how in the way you're trying to avoid it, it creates it. So there are kind of a couple of general principles for coaches that I think if they just were to understand, that maybe they could see if they're good fits for clients and not good fits and that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. A great question that you ask clients, and he said this in your book, you say,

what would you do differently if weight loss was off the table? What kind of responses do you get for that? And why do you ask that question? Everyone gets taken aback by it. I had a client just before you, and I asked her that she's new. And she told me she was taken aback by it. Basically, if weight loss was off the table, what would you do? Like, how would you eat?

If there was no pressure to lose weight, if you could get all the fitness adaptations or not, the bloating or not, the regret or not, the healthy feeling or not, what would you then eat? If we took away the pedestal of calorie deficit and you were just left with well-being, vitality, nourishment, what would you do? It's just kind of a pattern interrupt to ask people how they would nourish themselves. weight loss were out of the equation for one reason and one reason only.

The more you define yourself of weight loss, the less likely, in my opinion, you are to get it. And it kind of goes back to the thing I just said a moment ago where usually yeah, I think people are avoiding, they're accidentally creating. Yeah, it's the paradox,

the more you try to lose weight, the harder it is to lose weight. 100%. I don't know, like, you don't have to necessarily talk without loud, but you probably see an area in your own life or something where you've avoided it. I'm literally, my brain's going, my brain is going 90 at the thoughts of relationships and finances and all the things that I avoid and becomes more of an issue from it. Oh, I think, dude, I think this is the most interesting thing in the world.

And I don't think you can unsee it when you fully feel it, right? And this is where, again, I love the kind of sense of safety because you have to, you can't explore everything. And nobody, nor do you want to explore everything, just everybody. That's not practical. Like, hi, I'm Paul. This is the meaning of life. What about you? But when you have a good conversation like this,

when you then make a certain, like, for example, the book, right, I procrastinated for three years because I was trying to avoid doubt. Yes. And by avoiding doubt, I didn't write and publish. And then I was creating more doubt. So it wasn't until I, like, and this is what I tell every single client. And we're borderline going on cheesy because when I hear other people on podcasts

are really sad music. Please don't put sad music on this clip. If you clip this. It's like, well, I just. realize that. But no, but like, I believe that you're going to have the next problem show up in your life

and it's going to probably be the same thing you've met in the past. And you have to, it's coming up again and again and again to literally be, in my opinion, to be loved. And I mean love in a very specific way. I mean, I mean like loved like an insecure child. Like loved like a puppy who's peeing on the carpet.

You're emotionally eating. You tell yourself your piece of shit. You continue emotionally eating the cycle. Once you were to say, wow, like, I can't wait for this challenge to come up again, and I can't wait to love it. I can't wait to love myself, show myself love, do something courageous and compassionate, love myself, and do something different. I think that's how you literally break the cycle. So like, let's say your avoidance is triggered in a relationship and then you're trying to

avoid being avoidance. So you're, you know, it's the cycle you create, but it's going to keep coming until you meet it with a very loving. And I say compassionate in a very specific sense. And I kind of talk about it in the book, which is like, the ability to make a more of a wise and courageous choice. Like compassionate isn't low performance. It's change without shame and hostility. Is that what people mistake when they hear the word compassion, when you say, I'll be more compassionate to yourself,

they think, oh, well, I'm just being easy on myself and I need to, you know, be stricter on myself in order to get what I want. Yeah. 100%. It's the single biggest thing. It's like, I can't let myself off the hook. No, the irony is you're letting yourself off the hook. Yeah.

and you're not ready to admit that to yourself and that's the thing that I'm interested in. So yeah, I think when you feel the avoidance and how you're literally creating, I'm like guilty about skipping my workout. So I sit in the couch online and think about that I should be working out. I'm creating more guilt about missing my workout. I'm convinced that this is going through every problem in life.

I used to think it was an emotion eating problem, but now I'm starting to think it's in all the recurring problems. problems in life. So yeah. Would this relate to a story that you touched on. If we if we flip this back to kind of body image and body confidence, um, you said there was a lovely little piece in the book and you go, it took me a long time to understand what positive body image actually means at 30 years of age, nudged by my better, better half orla. I finally wore above the knee shorts despite years of being deeply self-conscious about my legs. For most of my life, I hated them. Admitting that now makes me a little sad. So it's like you're self-conscious about your legs. So

you cover them up and therefore you continue to be self-conscious about your legs. Perfect. That's exactly it. And then you kind of create the idea that when they're big, I'll do the thing. Yeah. But I won't do the thing until they're big. But then when they're big, I'll do the thing. But I won't.

And it's so funny, dude, I got the best body image advice to this. Look, I'm, I'm interested in body image science, but I'm not interested in communicating science because I, look, like, David Attenborough could get me absolutely excited about reading the fucking alphabet, but a boring scientist couldn't get me off my seat for the win and lottery ticket. So that kind of way, right? And I think there's an element of that. So I'm not really interested in communicating science. But I understand a lot about body image science and I'm very interested. But the best body image advice I've ever gotten. And I hope this lands at someone, because this truly changed my life. Instagram, a guy who's actually happened

to be built like me, but it wasn't so much that that helped. Someone said on a Q&A box on his they're going, hey, good faith question. You're also a bit like me. Quite a strong looking upper body, but quite a slender lower half. How do you deal with that when it comes to whatever, life or whatever, do know what's important to you? I can't remember the exact wording. But he goes, oh, simple.

He goes, I've just decided big legs aren't a prerequisite to me doing things that are important to me. I just go to the beach with slimmer legs. I just exercise with slimmer athletic legs. I wear jeans with slimmer athletic legs. And I've just decided that bigger legs aren't a pre-relevant. prerequisite to happiness or whatever. And honestly, I just was like, that is, I just want to think like that.

And I went to the beach in shorts and nobody fucking looked. Who knew? And I could have told you that care theoretically. An orla used to be like, baby, you look so much nicer in shorts when they're not tickling your ankles. And I'm like, oh, no. So I could have told you all the love yourself platitudes whilst I hid my own insecurity, by the way.

So, yeah, I think if you're able to. And look, I know this will get pushback because I know it's not as easy as just deciding. And I've seen some people push back on, you can't just tell people to just decide not to care about body image. It's the equivalent of eat less, move more of the fitness scene. I get that. But there are some people for whom a simple message like this can actually just flicker something in. So if you're able to just decide, you know, I don't have to basically what I'm saying is don't pause life until you're there. Like you'll just waste years.

Well, that's similar to like the person who says, oh, I just need to lose weight and then I'll be able to enter a gym. rather than, you know, I'm going to go to the gym to get in shape, but they don't feel like they belong there until they meet a certain category. And it's the cycle again. It's the cycle. It's the voiding something and creating it accidentally. And that's why, you know, I talk about the human side of things again. You know, a lot of people do have a lot of silly stories.

They tell themselves, oh, you know, my metabolism slowed down. And I think, but I feel most. people are doing their best with the knowledge they have at any given time. So, yeah, if you can just poke at people and prod people to be like, you know, we can science

to the fucking cows come home. These are the minutes of your life. Let's try and live them better. A great quote from the book that I pulled out as well. The greatest prisons aren't steel doors and locks. They're constructed from the thoughts and limitations we place on ourselves.

Yeah, that's just me writing to an audience of one myself, dude. Yeah. I am that. Like, I see it. self. Because when you said that I was like, yeah, that's, that's me as well. I'm sure most people relate to that.

You just, even little things like business growth, sometimes I can hesitate a little bit. But then other times, and again, therapy session with you know, Carol, part of me is like really happy, really content. And then part of the content is dangerous. You should be more ambitious. And then like, well, should is just shame. You shouldn't be shaming. Well, you've an opportunity to look. and sometimes I can feel myself in this kind of dichotomy between really growing and trying to get to that next level.

I'm sure you feel the same? Absolutely all the time. I'm intrigued by you because from the outside, like you have a huge platform. Yeah. Like you're more active. Like every time I look at my feed, you've posted like, how do you have the energy for this dude? I, it's funny because I like I go through that exact loop that you're talking about when I go through it all in a day multiple times where it's like, okay, I need to be more ambitious. I need to put myself out there.

I need to knock down the door to opportunity. And it's also, oh my God, I'm a loser. Why am I doing this? You know, I'm embarrassing myself. I should just shell away. You know, I'm small and short and skinny and uneducated. And, you know, I should just kind of go do something where I'm not put myself in the public domain. Do you know what the irony is?

And this is absolutely true. that 99.80% of what you just said will never register in our brain. I look in at you and I, the most dominating thought when I watch your content is, God, that dude is energy. Like, how. That's the only, like, start your training. Then you're talking about something.

Then you put up 72 memes. Then you give an insightful opinion on something that's going on. I've gone to bed in Seoul and I wake up and you're like, I'm blasphemy, scroll my mind. feet early. I do. I'm and I if I scroll the first 12 pulse, you're six of them. Well, that's just that's just the algorithm pushing the matche. No, but I get you, but even just jokes aside, like, I totally get what you mean because I didn't actually know that that was going through your head, which is probably silly given

we're all kind of similar in that way. But you know, from the outside in, I like my brain creates shortcuts and the shortcuts it creates with you is, you know, killing it, crushing it. Good. And that's kind of it. It's funny, isn't the brain creates shortcuts. I'm obsessed with magic. I don't know if you know

who Darren Brown is. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, I'm obsessed and I got to see street magic here. And it's so fascinating because he's actually been one of my biggest influences on coaching, believe it or not.

Just the whole, like, how language affects your self-image and the things that he's done. I watched a misdirectionist here in Seoul. He did such a cool thing. He brought a guy up, and the guy didn't even notice what was happening. He tipped him 50 euros in Korean one,

basically whatever the equivalent is after he was so impressed the guy picked pocket at every single his glasses off his head his watch his phone and wallet out of his pocket and the guy was like how did you get those and i know that might sound like a really silly analogy but i think some of the best and i'm not comparing myself to darn brown even i'm hair but i think some of the best people can dare i say misdirect you in a certain way and kind of guide you guide you more towards what they want you to see and in the strength of the as a ways of coaching. It's kind of like my internal philosophy. I would love to say, Carl, I would love to, I would love to change how you talk about yourself, to and about yourself. I would love to deflect the bullshit you're telling yourself so that you can actually change yourself image. So maybe

you could see yourself as someone worthy of the goal that you want. Because look, my perspective is a lot of us, what we call personality, is just a shit ton of defence mechanisms to make sure we don't get what we want. That's how I see it. That's so true, isn't it? I, I

I see it. I see it like, I see it most in the gender wars where, gender wars, fucking millennial. I see it most from people who are talking about males or females in a very specific way. And I'm like, I don't know if healthy people talk about the opposite sex that much. Like, I love my girlfriend. I love her. Like, she's my, she's amazing. I love her more than I love life. I don't talk about her that much. Like, I don't. It's just like she's there and I love her. You know, but if I came and said, Caroline, I'm really rich, I'm really rich. I'm really rich. I'm really rich. I'm really rich. You'd be a bit like, guys, that's serious insecurity issues.

Look how fit I am. Look how strong I am. Look how, I'd be like, I don't think he's got a good self-image. But yet, for some reason with other stuff, are like, oh, they know a lot about human nature and insight. They know what they want. Like, no, they're wounded. Yeah.

They don't, they haven't learned yet that they're talking to themselves. Why can't we see it? Obviously, obviously social media kind of, you know, makes that even more inflammatory and it pushes it out to the masses. and, you know, the loudest voices on the internet will be seen and will be heard. But then we don't recognize that, I suppose we see it all the time in regards. We look at someone who is really successful in a certain field or projects themselves as being successful. And we say things like, oh, I wish I was like them or I want to be like them,

not knowing everything from, you know, behind the curtains that's going on. look the truth I don't know the answer at all I don't know why key certain people do it I'm just intrigued by it you know I've you know when you've met someone

in the past and they're so clearly compensating for something that you just can't be around them yeah like that I've just I've seen it I've felt it I can't explain it all I can say is that like sometimes like I kind of joke with clients

like in a nice way that like a lot of my coaches is asking what they want and then just breaking down all the ways they've built into their life to make sure that they do not get what they want. Yes. Like I genuinely believe a calm mind is the most underrated relationship with food kind of hack that exists. Yeah. But how do you sell that? So, yeah, I'd be lying if I said, I know why people tend to gravitate towards these kind

of defense mechanisms. All I know is that they exist and that you see them. I do think social media as well has made it easy to be like, yeah, you go. Like, you know, yeah, you take that child up trauma and you. make an Instagram page out of it. How do you, speaking on a calm mind,

how do you craft a more for someone who weighs overcompensating? How do you help them to create a more calm mind so they're not kind of engaging in these things that are preventing them

from getting what they really want? Sometimes, some people I think it can be as simple as just seeing it is enough. So like, you know, when you're in binary thinking, think you're in when like when you're afraid you go very binary and when you're binary it's a clear sign you're about to make a terrible decision i think you said i think you have a great line on this somewhere and i was meant to read it back yeah i know the one that you're thinking of it's when

we fall back on black and white thinking when we're afraid and nuance feels like chaos yeah yes that's the one and i think sometimes just seeing it and then beginning to practice can be enough other times i think you have to train it literally like a muscle i think you have to train yourself to it. So, like, the pull towards comfort eating arises and you have to actually decide what the wiser, more courageous, more thoughtful version of Carol might do rather than the impulsive and the old and the patterned version of them. So sometimes it's like that. Other times that kind of cycle that I was talking about earlier, when I say to some people, they really do see it in their life and that can kind of be enough. Other times, honestly, in the best possible, I just bark, like the way I'm harping on at

you now, this is like my, my, my, my, real personality and I don't feel I get it across on social media as well as I would like. But honestly, sometimes I just kind of badger people to be like, sorry, peace and calm or just the answer. Like, I don't exactly know how you're going to find it, but overthinking the shit ain't going to do it. Oh, but if I don't, I won't lose it.

I promise you. I promise you. Close the kitchen between your fucking meals. Like, write it. Eat a satisfying meal and close the kitchen between meals. Oh, like, how do I know what to eat? Don't fucking worry. You love the next meal.

You love the next meal. I promise you. So sometimes I might ask somebody, to close the kitchen for three to five hours between meals. And if you've been snacking all your life, it's really hard to do, harder than you might think. And so then you're just kind of just breaking down that, well, okay, clearly like this,

you're eating too many times in a given day. And then you're just implementing new skills, like the pause, the ability to wait, the ability to train your mind. But a lot of people who hire me, this is the kind of the truth is a lot of people who hire me, they're past the contemplating stage, and they're now in the,

I'm ready, I need you or someone to tell me when I'm doing a good job. But also like a client, and I think the reason clients trust me, I had a lawyer, a lawyer sign up. I get on great with her. She won't mind me sharing this story. She'll say this herself and I'm pretty sure she's going to be on my podcast soon. We must do one because I like the client episodes.

But the first one, she's like, I'm a lawyer and I'm going to be a tough client. And I argue for a living and I'm going to be one of your harder cases kind of thing. And I just, you just go straight and then like, or maybe a lot of yourself worth this conditional on achievement and this is just the one area you haven't been able to achieve. And I could just see that she was like, okay. And she's softened and we developed a great relationship, that kind of thing. So I think a lot of the time, the ability to help people generate a calm and peaceful mind is be brave enough, be brave enough to call them out on patterns that, like, I think a lot of coaches, I suspect, and this isn't me looking down from an ivory tower because I was honestly this up until a

couple years ago, I think we're afraid to say the thing we truly, truly mean. Like, like, I think your, I think your external validation is like borrowed fuel. Sorry. Like, it's, it's not working for you. Like, one of the things that I touch on right at the end of the book, and I really believe this is the more you need, like, a compliment or an external validation, the less you'll actually be able to receive it. because it kind of goes against what's going on in here.

But then the less you receive it, the more you'll always crave it. And it's kind of, again, another cycle of need external validation, but then you can't actually handle it when you get it. But then because you can't actually take it, you seek for it more, but then you can't handle it. So another thing about common pieces

to get people closer to their own values and to be like, well, like truly what is important to you? What kind of life do you want to live? Like, who do you want to be in situations that test you? That sounds very elementary to a lot of people, but I do think that can be very helpful perspective in in coaching work as well because like how are you I'm sure you you you love a pint right yeah so do I I love a pint but when I tell

people that what I do for living they're shocked that I drink Calcom and I find that fascinating because it's like there's not like a personal trainer convention where we all just gather and make and plus I wouldn't want to be with those bellins half the time to say the truth I wouldn't I like I want the guy who wants to go for a pint after the workout like I that's my kind of person. Literally, my whole business model is based on me. And I'm someone who I want to like train with people, exercise with them, enjoy it because I'm with the person, whether that's like we do a race together, like we all run a 10K together

or we all like do a really difficult workout together. And then we all go for like, we sit in a beer garden and then we all chat after and it's just the most wholesome thing in the world. And I'm like, oh, I feel connected to these people. It's amazing. You can see. like it does honestly shout off your stories that you're

your, again, my favorite writing advice, one of them is write for an audience of one yourself. You've built a business for an audience of one for sure. And it kind of, and by the way, I think that's why people gravitate towards you.

I think people can really sense authenticity. For the most part, I'm sure if some people can't, but for the most part, I think people can really gravitate towards that sense of authenticity. And, and you've probably, seen this but when you're coaching someone, you do become a vehicle for feelings in them that

they've kind of forgotten how to have. I know this, I talk about a lot of heavy stuff. I get that. This isn't typical personal trainer stuff, but it is just my area of interest. But a lot of clients that I work with, like, I do think if, if they were emotionally abused growing up, again, I'm not trying to be anyone's therapist, but sometimes I will see patterns of, I say abuse. It's like, I had a client who she was basically fed until she was sick. And then she grew up to be struggling with her weight. And like, it did feel like abuse from listening. And she's in therapy anyway. But one thing I noticed she hadn't learned was to be angry at her own mother. She almost, and this happens quite more than you might think. So I kind of become, like, I express anger in a very

controlled way because I want people to see it and be like, that's not an okay behavior. Sometimes, dude, do you know what I found? Honestly, now that I'm just thinking about, the most effective way to create a calm mindset is just honestly to embody it. If I say, Carol, I really messed up by two pizzas and I'm just kind of there going more flavor oh oh you mean it's a bad thing oh I thought you're going to tell me that you had two for one in Domino oh okay I see yeah like

and it's sincere like it's not me like performing it's like but you wouldn't like you had two pizzas because you're working but you would have had two pizzas last weekend anyway right does that come back to a lot of safety in the room because it's like okay they know oh you're not reacting to this oh they're not paul's not judging me

and so now I can kind of let my guard down and not perform and I can be calm. Yeah, definitely because again, I talk about judgmental and it's not because I'm wearing a halo book my head. I just wouldn't like you to do it to me. Yeah. Like if I came to you and said, look, I have really bad self-image issues. I'm having intimacy issues with my wife and performance anxiety. And if you were just like, like, I'd be humiliated. And that's just one example. And this is the equivalent of that to be. Everyone has an equivalent of some version of this that they're taking to somebody that they've decided to trust.

So the reason I just don't judge anybody is because I think shame and love are fighting. They're trying to occupy the same place in the human heart. I really believe it. So like shame is living where love wants to live. And that's why I talk about when something keeps coming back into your life, you almost have to love it, proper love it, to dissolve the shame piece of it. So if I'm talking to a client that like I ate loads of pizza, I'm like, yep, you like pizza.

And until you accept, if you keep trying to suppress that you love certain foods, you're going to be holding a ball under a swimming pool, but then it's going to splash up and hit you in the face. You can't suppress your wants. And then, you know, going to go back to your black and white thing, that your wants aren't in conflict. Like, you can want to lose weight and have a very flexible diet. You can want to change your lifestyle and not hate yourself.

You can be calm and driven as hell. Like, one thing I think people are surprised about me when they meet me in real life. I don't come across like a super ambitious, or maybe I don't know how I come across online, to be fair, but like I'm very, I would appear very motivated when you meet me in life. Like I exercise hard,

I learn languages, fun. I do a lot of things that are seen as motivated. I just don't talk about them that much because like, who cares? But like, I think you can, I think the reason I feel so motivated is because I'm having more fun than anyone. Like in my head, in my own head, I'm just joy is the productivity hack. like I don't need a little pep talk to get myself to Spanish class and into the gymnasity rings because like I'm just enjoying myself

but there's no guilt when I'm having a beer in a Korean barbecue and a God knows what on the side of the street because I'm enjoying myself and I wish everybody will get to that place that's the one I want them to get to that part yeah that just joy that makes that makes a lot of sense I think there was that quote that was going around the internet as well it's like you can't beat someone who's who's having fun 100% it just it just can't happen I think joy is the ultimate productivity hack.

And most people's to-do list is just their inner critic trying to... It's an inner critic on a page. Do this. Do this. Do this. I don't know, man. I just like, no, like try and have more... Even if you're doing things that aren't inherently fun, try and make it fun. Okay, you have to exercise. Don't do the thing you hate the most because Harold put a template on a story and you think,

well, you have to do what he does. Don't do that. Like, fun. You know, even when I quit the gym, a little silly little example. But just because I think more people would fall here. than you might think. But I said to someone, I've stopped lifting weights.

I'm like, why? I realized I wasn't enjoying weightlifting. I decided to just do body weight training. Where, wherever I find. And they were like, oh, but you'll never like build as much muscles as you could that way.

And I remember thinking, well, that's the supposition that I care about muscle. Like, I've kind of softened my care about the muscle. But, you know, if I hadn't done enough just self-reflection there, I might have gone,

he's right. That must be a commentary on my body. I better get back to the gym and win this validation. So I think you have to just take a little bit of time to like to know what actually brings you joy in the first place. Joe Hudson is a great line actually. He talks about how joy is the matriarch of the family of emotions and she won't enter the home where her children aren't welcome. It's kind of like you have to be able to feel all your emotions in order to feel joy.

I love that. It's brilliant, isn't it? Yeah. It's great line. Yeah, great line. I love that line. You spoke on core values, but we haven't really touched on it. Where do values come in in regards to weight loss and dieting?

or, you know, breaking the chains of dieting. I just think they serve as a, if this is all very new to you, they serve as a little simple framework. I would say let's pick a value, a classic value of wise, and then you pick a, okay, when I'm wise and then maybe you look at a pizza,

and you might think, okay, the wise me eats pizza with Carol on date night. The wise version of me says no to the pizza that I didn't particularly want in the office, but it's just stale and it's there and it's been there for three hours and I don't want it. So values I'm using in a very specific way, which is when it comes to food,

something I've found difficult. Like, who do I want to be in situations that test me? Like, the most connected version of me can have a few drinks skill free, but the most connected of me can say no to a glass of wine on Monday to take the edge off, something to that effect. So what it becomes is just a little bit of a compass.

It's not a rigid diet rule. And the beautiful thing is once your choices reflect your values, you kind of realize you don't actually need a diet rule. Like, I don't need anybody to tell me what to eat or when. Like my values tell me that. Like my personal values right now in my life are kind of like fun, connection, growth and wisdom. They're kind of the four things that I kind of gravitate. You can pick anything, by the way, but I'm just giving an example. And so for me, I feel like my most fun, wise, connected.

itself, et cetera, when I feel physically fit, when I eat well during the day, but then like on a Friday night or Saturday night, my girlfriend, I go and I try something new and something fun. I went to food tour Saturday night. And you might look at the, and what it does is it takes it away from diet rules to situation. So I was eating like this deep fried, I'd say a billion calorie stack of potato cake things in Korea on Saturday night. That's something. The calories don't make that moment.

My values do. If I was just bored on Tuesday, deep frying potato, now we've a big issue. But like, the idea of values is there are compass for specific situations. So you don't need a diet rule. Your values oriented self probably wants to eat some protein and do all the shite. You've heard a hundred times before. What it is is actually to soften your approach and realize it's not like good, bad. Does this fit my values now or does it not fit my values now?

And that's how I've always eaten. That's how I've always treated myself and that. always actually last 10 years. And when I stopped, I stopped helping clients with calories completely about four or five years ago or maybe three, four years ago. I don't do it. Nothing against it.

It's just I lost my spark for it. Like it still works. It's still the thing. It's just like someone leaving the finance sector, if you get me. And I started more coaching values and kind of skills and soft skills. Because what I found is when people start to clarify those things, then they know what foods they want to eat and they don't need me to tell them anymore. So yeah, they're just kind of like, who do you want to be? I suppose, and understanding them

values or understanding yourself means that you're, like you said, you have more clarity to make the decision and to not feel guilt around the decision. And you wrote in the book and I loved this piece of advice from your parents. It was a say no or say yes happily, but never say yes, begrudgingly. And I suppose that kind of follows in on that. If you understand who you are, what you value, what you want to do with your time and why you want to do it with your time, it's a lot easier to say no than someone who struggles saying no, because maybe there are people pleasers or whatever. Big time. I know that people pleasing thing is I've had to learn more about that. Like, I don't have a people pleasing bone in my body. And then not from an unkind way,

but I know why. Like when I was 1213, I grew my hair quite long. And my aunt commented on it in the presence of my entire extended family. She just goes, Paul, I go, what? She goes, I don't like your hair. And my dad just goes, do you know what the beautiful thing about life is? She goes, no, what? He goes, if you don't like Paul's hair, don't grow your hair like his then. And I was just like, like, you know, you're kind of 12, you're looking at it, I going,

okay, we can, we can answer back. We don't have to, okay, don't have to do what I don't want to do. You know, you're almost taking little notes about how you navigate the world. So I never have struggled with people pleasing. I'm like, it's very, hey, Paul, would you like to do the thing? Oh, no, thanks. That doesn't suit me. and I didn't realize how uncommon it is

until you grow up and you become an adult and then you see everybody in the world like, oh, I have to help uncle my clean the car. I'm like, you're working today. You're tired. Like I can't say no. And I'm like, you can't.

I kind of had to learn like, shit, people can't say no. What the fuck? So I attacked, that's one of the areas of coaching where I did very much have to research the science for people pleasing. Be like, but yeah, like people pleasing is actually another big example of because I think it falls into one of the major distractions in life.

Like if you're constantly people pleasing, like you're not going to know who you are around food. Like if you're trying to eat nourishing food and someone says, hey, Carol, come on, let's go to supermarkets for lunch. You need to be able to say, no, that doesn't work for me. So that's another reason values are, again, values is more of an introduction. Like they're not going to do the deep cycle. It's not going to be understand values in your heel.

It's more from my perspective, an introduction into like, have you actually taken a moment to just decide, the general direction we're taking this because if you haven't you could be chasing someone else's goal to that kind of way I'm sure you like you put it perfectly at the start it's essentially just a compass

kind of guiding you in the right direction yeah I think so I mean my perspective is dieting or like diet rules I think I said something in the book obviously I thought I remembered every word off heart but it's something to weight loss without values

is kind of basically a decent definition for crash dieting in my opinion. Like if you don't know who you want to be or why you're dieting and you're constantly frustrated and it's yo-yoing and you can't seem to get motivated. I would honestly say that I can't sit here with good faith

and make, oh values will change your life or one of the skills will change your life. But it's these are things that call the book 21 soft skills. They're 21 of the important soft skills. So you said some people don't see a number. They see their inner critic staring back at them.

What do you mean by that? This is, I think every personal trainer and their mother has seen this one for years and years and years. It's just the, it's intoxicating, the pull of a number. It's kind of like, I'm sure you've seen this pattern play out. You go on a diet. You lose, or sorry, you gain a little bit of weight on the scale. This isn't working. And so you kind of comfort yourself at food.

Or you step on the scale. Maybe you're ahead of your average. weight goal and it's down a few pounds and so you reward yourself with food and so in both cases you're putting yourself back into the surplus anyway for a lot of people i don't think they realize that their motivation is coming from that kind of conditional self-worth or guilt so they're constantly in a well the scale will tell me my behavior what i've often done with clients i've asked them to remove the scale for a month or more and around week two week three and they're like i need to see if this is working i need to see if this is working like exactly you're looking to you're looking for

a familiar feeling of what feels like self-sabotage, that kind of thing. So I talked about projective identification earlier, trying to keep this quite lighthearted and not boring, but if shame is constantly being thrown out you from all sides about your body weight, and you already agree with that, the scale just becomes another way to reinforce and nothing you do is ever good enough. And so it's one of those simple in theory, hard and practice things of building your inner self-worth, so that true confidence isn't, like true confidence can't write. and fall with a number dude.

Yeah. That kind of thing. How do people build their self-worth? Oh, what a, the magic question. I think spending more time with people who have a really healthy sense of self is a really good idea. I think understanding the kind of experiences you want to have in life. I think honestly, I think getting to that simple, in theory,

hard and practice place of realizing that your self-worth can't be, contingent on any one external thing because if it gets taken away, it's too dangerous. Like, I mean this with every fibre of my being. I love finance and investing. I love fitness. I love chalistemics. But I don't feel that they make me any more of a man than if I didn't have an interest in any of those things.

And if I lost every aspect of those things, dislocated shoulders or if my investment portfolio went to zero, things like that, I don't say, I genuinely don't see myself with less of a man. I don't have myself worth. There are things I'm interested in and they're cool. Yeah. That's it. So there are obviously external things and it has to be internal,

but can external things help you to create that internal self-worth? I mean, I think to some degree, knowing where you want to go in life can be a major boost. You know, I can't sit here and tell people what's going to be true for old people. What I've seen time and time again, my perfect analogy for me is, and I think anecdotes work. I did the bodybuilding thing

and I thought it would make me happy and it was just nothing felt disappointment feels even worse when you're expecting the applause to make you feel better. What's that great quotes? Like there's no bigger failure

than getting exactly what you wanted and feeling nothing or something to that degree. And that was the classic one for me the bodybuilding stage in the UL arena and just feeling nothing. yeah nothing like just a bit of inhalation but then in a meet like i remember the moment when i went backstage and i came third and they said you would have won if your back muscles were a bit bigger

and i remember i said to um ryan at the time i was like well what'll i do and he just kind of casually said well yeah just go work on your back for the next year and come back next year and i i just remember part of me died and i went no fuck this i want to travel i want no but then i wrote the book and i had the i released it and i said you know what if this sounds like copy or 10 copies. Like, and if someone says a good word or a bad word, I'm good. Like, this is the hill I'll die on. Like, this is the one.

So the kind of the external validation is lovely because it really does reflect the person I want to be. But when I've one negative review on it and I'm like, yeah, that's, that's a part of it. Yeah. I've tried to do that. I tried to do that. I break up a little bit there. Sorry.

It just just went there for a second. Yeah, I tried to do that even with the podcast now. It's like, you know, you can get so caught up in. you know, views and numbers and stuff like that. And I'm constantly challenging myself and saying that, you know, regardless of where the podcast goes, I actually enjoy the process of just sitting down and having conversations with people. And I feel really good after the conversation is over.

And through that, it's really helped me. It's not tie myself worth to the success of the podcast because the success is actually doing the podcast. How do you reckon, like, how do you actually, like, it's lovely that we can discuss these ideas, but like, how do you actually feel when you do see lower numbers? Do you tend to react? Or are you just, I don't, I don't, I don't actually really react to them now. Which is, which is a surprising thing to, to myself. Like, obviously, you notice, if you, if an episode sky rockets, you're interested as, oh, that episode has done really well. Um, but it doesn't make me, um, um, love the podcast more or hate the podcast more or hate the process more or love the the process more. And obviously, you know, I went through a phase of, okay, I need to create content because that's going to build an audience. And if it builds an audience, then that must say something about me that I actually know what I'm talking about. And then I realized, oh, actually I already knew

what I was talking about before I actually built an audience. I was the same person if I had, you know, 2,000 followers or, you know, 100,000 followers. And then I actually, actually resented the process of of making content because I was I was doing it for other people and not myself. But the podcasts, I've never really looked at it in the same context. It's like I'm not doing the podcasts to build it to up to be something. I'm doing the podcast because the conversations are really interesting. And I feel like I become a better person by doing them. I become more interesting because I'm learning more things, if that makes sense.

Of course, 100%. That's such a much better way to do it. You know, when you went from, was it, 2000 to 100 plus thousand? Was there anything, did you catch a wave? Or was it just being relentlessly consistent? Was there a certain catalyst in that kind of growth? Yeah, I was just, I was, I say I was posting content for about five years straight. and I just went through a phase where I was kind of, you know, it was, it was, I was kind of, it was, the goal was to kind of, to grow the platform and I had a few viral videos and, you know, it exploded. And then I got a lot of attention from it. And then I was like, oh, actually, now that I've got this, this is not actually what I want. I don't want that many people knowing who I am. And I kind of retreated it myself from that. It was kind of the, it's kind of the same idea. It's like, you get it.

you get exactly what you want and then you realize you didn't want it and then you feel awful about yourself forgetting the thing that you thought you wanted for the last five years. It's so interesting because the few people I've spoken to, I only ever had one viral thing and it was like 2017 on Facebook. So I've never had an Instagram viral. But everyone I spoke to who has gone viral that I spoke to personally has talked about more of the challenges or the like I had a friend who cracked a couple of million views and they said that It was just actually horrible to what people having a conversation amongst themselves critiquing their appearance. Yeah.

Things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Because you get you, you have an audience of people who trust you, who have kind of been consuming your content for the last couple of years. And they are a lot more forgiving even in your in your appearance or your mistakes or if you, you know, say an opinion that they don't agree with. And then you just get skyrocketed into an audience of people who, don't know you who don't care about you and will be relentlessly mean about your your biggest insecurities and you know that's that's i suppose that's the cost of fame oh yeah now that's the

that's the that's the fun again i have never had a viral pose but the one that went closest i did have someone comment on my legs at the time too which i was like well this sucks yeah yeah yeah it's yeah it's a funny one because they'll always comment on the thing that you know it hurts the most because it's the thing that you're most insecure about you know for sure so so you don't have the you don't have that growth strategy anymore then is no no i just i don't i don't i don't there is there is no strategy here i just i just i literally just shit post and i just talk about what i want and i use i use social media and i use the podcast to just um reinforce things that i've learned about or literally to just explore my own thoughts and i just found a a medium that that helps me to do

that What are you most interested in right now? What's catching your attention in life? I would say, I was going through a phase there where I was, you know, going down the kind of route of philosophy and reading books from Camus and C.S. Lewis and Doski-esque. I've struggled to pronounce that name sometimes. And then also, obviously, still kind of really interested in the political side of things. I watch a lot of kind of the US politics and the UK politics, but now I'm a little bit more interested in the, in the Irish politics.

There's just a little bit more drama in the, in the US and the UK, but there's drama obviously all over politics. So a little bit of both of them things, but, you know, I still obviously will always be interested in fitness and nutrition, and that's something that I will always tailor back to. and you know I've kind of gone through a a period now of like we spoke about earlier it's like okay you have a certain title or a thing that you are known from from the public and then therefore should you be pigeonholed into only speaking about that thing but what if you're interested in other things and why am I letting other people dictate what I'm thinking about or what I want to talk about or what I want to write about so and it's a funny thing it's because like you don't

understand the topic enough but if you don't talk about it. that are right about it, you won't ever understand that topic enough. So it's, you know, it's a catch-22 kind of thing. If you want to, if you want to understand it, if you want to be known for speaking about that thing, you have to actually speak about that thing. And, you know, it was the same thing with, like, fitness. It was like I was never known as someone who was the fitness guy in my local area.

And I was, you know, nervous about talking about that thing. And now it's like people are saying, all, I will stick to fitness. Yeah. with the politics thing do you ever does it ever occur that like what's the point like everybody just set in their head the way I'm set in mine and like everybody's just like that that's the only reason it's not the only reason it's because I'm it's because I just don't think I'm a passionate enough voice for it but the reason I don't really speak about anything like that publicly is because I kind of just come from the mindset that everybody has thought about and made up their own mind

And then I'm just kind of, there I say, doing the same. And so it just becomes more of a two people talking past each other in a political sphere. Well, there's definitely that dynamic on social media. But I think there is still like, well, this is the thing about social media is that we only get the extreme voices from both ends. And you even talked about it in the in the gender war dynamic. It's like you have the you have the either the manist fair lads talking about how evil females are or you have the third wave feminists talking about how, you know, men are so dangerous and we need to, you know, stay away from. from them and toxic masculinity and all them things. But then you have people in the middle like you and your girlfriend who are like,

actually I like females and actually I like males and actually people are really nice in the middle. And I think there's in the same thing in politics is that, okay, you know, there are people in the center who, you know, don't want either sides of these extreme ideologies and, you know, want people to be able to live any way that they want to live as long as it doesn't hurt other people. And I think, you know, it's, it is, again, with the medium, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, long form content and conversations like this where you really, uh, get you, you, re, them people kind

of find you where you find them people. I mean, like, you know, when I, when I, when I listen to politics, um, and when I'm observing people's, uh, opinions, uh, I'm not doing it from, you know, Instagram or TikTok where people are going to have the most extreme voices or pick someone on the other end of the left and right and say, oh, look, this is, they're all like this. They're all like this, you know, a person. It's more, you know, listen to people sit down and having a two hour and a three hour conversation and explore ideas and letting each other talk and you can kind of be able to make up your mind.

And like, I've changed my mind loads of times on loads of different topics politically. You know, I would, if I was to speak to myself now, I'd be disagreeing with. with nearly everything that I thought I knew five years ago. So I think there is an opportunity for people to change their minds on different topics. It's just hard when you're on the wrong medium where it's the most extreme voices get platformed. You could be comfortable to share any of the things that you've changed your mind on or does anything come to mind? I don't think when you're on the spot it can be. I suppose I suppose if we really wanted to get into it, I would suppose that immigration would be the first thing that went on my mind.

I used to look at, let's say, people in, you know, North city inner Dublin and maybe three or four years ago they were having complaints about immigration. And I thought, oh, these people are all just uneducated. And, you know, that's why they are, you know, you're protesting on certain things. And then you quickly realize that actually these are the people who are impacted first when it comes to certain policies. And that's why they're the first to the ground and the first to see it. And it's maybe, you know, the university and the intellects that live in their ivory towers who see it last and probably probably kind of look down their nose at a lot of the working class. And therefore, they can't, you know, empathize or listen to their problems. And that's where you get that kind of divide where, you know, they will quickly brand people as racists or anything like that.

So I suppose immigration would be one. I think a lot of them, I think, a lot of my, a lot of my opinions now have gone from maybe a little bit more liberal to a little bit more conservative. But I still believe in, you know, things like picking people up, giving people a hand, giving people an opportunity, people who are struggling. But I think, you know,

traditional family values are really important. I think, you know, braiding safety around communities and families and country is really important. I think enforcing law is really important. And I would have been probably the first person to give out about the Gardee maybe five, 10 years ago. So I think I've changed my opinion on a lot of them kind of things. And who knows, I might flip back in another four or five years if I hear better arguments. But I like to listen to a lot of debates and see where people's logic kind of falls down with, you know, the thing with listening to podcasts as well. If it's like you're just listening to one person and one person's opinion and you don't have the intellect to challenge that, you might just take that as, you know, gospel. Whereas then you get two people who are kind of know their stuff and they challenge each other's ideas.

It's a lot, you get a lot more clarity in regards to seeing, okay, well, I thought that person made more sense. But now actually, now I'm starting to lean a little bit to this person. And I think that's where we touch back on you and your Spanish tutor. It's like having open dialect is, you know, fundamental for people being able to explain. ideas and for people to be able to change their minds. And that's how I was able to change mind because, you know, I was listening to people have debates and come more, not even debates because sometimes it's debates are about winning a debate, whereas a conversation is about trying to understand the other person, which I think

is really important. And if you can, if you can open yourself to, to conversations where people may not agree with each other, but they're going to challenge each other's ideas. and if you have an open mind and you're curious for both people and you don't go in with your bias because a lot of people can look at the same debate and come back with different outcomes because they already have a certain bias to a certain individual but if you don't have a I think if you can come in with an open mind and listen to two people have conversations I think there's there's an opportunity in politics for people to change their mind

for sure like the truth is at the bottom of a bottomless pit so you kind of always just scanning which side of a debate has wiser perspectives and which what have you not considered yeah I tend to agree it's the kind of one of those things is saying for me my perspective is you know sometimes I don't know as a complete sentence so when I'm listening to a lot of debates I find myself going you know what I don't know I don't know enough about this topic but I was just wondering what are the kind of things you've changed your mind on because obviously politics is something that affects us all and since I've been out of the country for the last God

properly like I've been obviously home to Ireland for funerals and bits and pieces but eight years it has been quite interesting just watching Ireland from from afar and watching the unrest do you have any opinions on from watching from abroad obviously the kind of civil unrest in the country obviously all the different things like the protests and you know, the way that, you know, we talk about social media, we also talk about, you know, even in terms of mainstream media outlets and everyone's kind of battling for your attention.

Do you have any, have you, from an outside perspective looking in, do you have any, any thoughts on it? Do you know, honestly, I don't know enough. The truth is I would just be someone with not enough information adding to speculation. The only thing I've seen that I don't like it, that I agree with is I don't like shooting down people with terms like racist or sexist or misogynist. I don't like it. I think there are terms that we should use very carefully for people. I think they dilute the impact of real racism and sexism and misogyny. I think it desensitizes people to it from when it's actually occurring. I think the downstream effect of using terms to dismiss people is when actually somebody who seems

a bit cranky says it in day-to-day life, then you kind of tend to just like, I've heard that term 19 different times today. I'm not going to listen to you. But then that's the one time that it's actually. absolutely true. So my, I've been a big, I've been a huge beneficiary, shall we say, of moving abroad from integrating into cultures, Spain, Malaysia, Vietnam. I'm only in Seoul for a month, so I don't really count. So my bias is like, I got free movement.

Can I ask you a question even in terms of your time in Vietnam and stuff like that? Because I know a lot of people compare, there's a lot of people living in South East Asia at the moment from places like from Western culture and a lot of them compare how there's a sense of nationality and pride in these people for their countries where they feel like the Western societies has lost that. Do you find that there's this national pride in these countries that you go to and you feel like you know there is a sense of unity and togetherness in that? It's one of the best parts of travel. Like there's absolutely national. right in Vietnam. You tell me what other country I can go to where an old lady takes me back

to her house, feeds me a bowl of noodles, I'm sitting on her floor, I'm using chopsticks, we're wearing those hat things, probably not the most cultural example. I'm sure they're more Vietnamese specific, but like that's not happening in salt hill and go away. Yeah. So no, there is, there's definitely a lot of cultural pride when you travel and go abroad. To be honest, my honest opinion, if I'm being direct, is I just don't like it. I think there is space for I think there's space for more love and more understanding in the conversation. I think people shouting the general tendency for people to shout forward and back to each other. It does nothing in any way that's conducive to growth.

I think there's going to be valid. The problem is there's always going to be valid claims on both sides. One of my favorite authors is actually a divorce lawyer, James Sexton. Oh, yes, I know him, yeah. I love James. I think he's so smart and witty. And he talks about how he has represented the perpetrator of domestic violence. And he has represented the person who's been the victim of domestic violence.

And he says he does not let his personal opinion get away of the system. I believe in the system. I believe in the justice system. I believe in the due process. I believe everybody has a right to a fair trial. Because I'm not letting my bias get in the way. I'm representing the system. And it is my job to make the best argument I can for that.

person in the system. And he goes, and some people call me one thing and some people call me another thing. And I love when people like him, who I think are deeply articulate and intelligent, can present an argument that shows both sides of humanity because humanity is messy. There are always going to be concerns. You can be, I love my country, and I want safety, and I love all people, and I hope they get opportunities, and they can all co-exist. I really have a strong disliking care towards dichotomized thinking and weaponized kind of speech too. Yes. Well, I think this this goes back to, sorry, this goes back to your quote on food, but it also, you know, relays to, you know, the political landscape.

And you touched on, all right, with black and white thinking and and fear. And I think it's the, it's the same idea across the, across the. message for most topics. And I think people would be in a better position if we would just stop and listen to the concerns of those we disagree with. Societely, I just think shame. Most arguments are like just people throwing shame back and forth to each other. Not everybody.

I think some people are very wise and intelligent. Unfortunately, they're the middle who are just having a reasonable discussion. But in a kind of what makes the headline sense, it's very, I'll throw shame of you. you throw shame of me and just goes nowhere. Like the one thing about shame is that it continues to grow if you just keep using it to weaponize it. And so most arguments, even in personal relationships, which is the stuff I'm really interested in, like I kind of almost, I have a strange perspective on a lot of things.

I look at things almost like with a meta lens, which is almost like what is the psychological benefit to the person to hold this perspective in a sense? So I don't come around with anything. And like I have huge opinions here. I have huge opinions here. at things and go, wow, it's really interesting that you think that way, and it's really interesting that you think that way. And no, he's not a racist. He had a concern. And even if, even if he's wrong, calling him a racist is the best way to not get him to change his mind.

Yeah. Absolutely. Like if I want, if I want you to not agree with anything I say, I'll insult you. I'll call you one of the worst things you can be labeled as. Yeah. It's just, it's just bonkers to me. Yeah. How can you, how can you get someone to change their mind when they have their backup against the wall because you're lambastened up to,

to, with everything you can find. This is psychology, this is psychology 101. What's that guy, you know, the black guy, he's changed more KKK members

to leave the KKK than any other person. Oh, yes, a brilliant episode. Yeah, I can't remember his name. Where he, Jesse, honestly, I don't remember his name,

but he, he just talks about how the first thing you can do, do is understand someone's perspective. And this guy's dealing with the biggest racists that exist, by the way. And I think if a black guy can meet KKK members with kindness, I think we should be able to meet our fellow Beck and Dublin and Gawares with. Yeah. And like you said, I think a little bit of understanding.

I think even you said in terms of your own perspective there, like you default to curiosity as to why you think that way. And I think. And it's not like me trying to say the right thing. This is my genuinely how my brain. works. Yeah. Where I think the problem is that a lot of people are trying to have conversations with them to convince them to think a certain way or not to think a certain way to think their way. You know, they're trying to win the argument thinking that that's going to convert them over

rather than just have, be, just be curious about their, about their opinions and have a conversation about it. And that's the thing that interests me. Whenever I find myself getting a bit carried away, I have to ask myself, well, like, genuinely, like, why do you want that person to think something different. Why do I want that? And then I don't have an answer. I've never given myself a satisfactory answer. Like I've heard some people,

for example, generalize men in a way that I find quite distasteful, people I know. And I don't, I don't like it because I don't like what people do it to win, by the way. I don't like this. I don't like doing it to any person or group.

It's just I don't think it's particularly intelligent thinking. But then I kind of stop myself and I've not given myself a satisfactory answer to the question. why do I need this person to think a different way? Why do I need them to agree with me? And because then I can just park it away and just get on with my life. But I am interested in people who are outspoken to because I think there's a courage to it. Because when you risk speaking out about something as delegate as immigration,

you risk opening yourself up tall sorts of labels. Yeah, absolutely. You said one more, I just wanted to touch on one more thing that you said. Well, two more things because I think it's going to be beneficial for the people listening in regards to food rules. said that those who can't bend break, what did, what did you mean by that? The whole mark of health is flexibility. If you look at anybody who has a strong physique, their joints are actually flexible. And if you look at what flexibility is, it's kind of like strength in different

positions. And I think that's kind of what the relationship with food is, is people lean on diet rules to feel safe, but then the diroids are too strict and then they overeat. So, When you have the ability to be flexible, you just go to any situation in the world. I'm going to go out with my friends for pizza. I'm going to go to that party. And you just trust yourself. You can stop at enough. You can look at something and say, I like it, but I don't want it now.

You can have the whole thing and not beat yourself up. But if you rely on everything outside of yourself going perfectly, you're just going to snap. Someone DM me a couple of months ago. I loved what he said, so much so that I can't actually remember word for word, but you get my point. He said something. He was talking about all. these kind of hardcore bros who like do a lot of like do you know and i hope you don't do this stuff because then i'm about to offend you but you know all this ice bat and um do all this like

up at five do ice baths do 72 000 things before nine joke that mentality cut out people that don't agree with your life yeah someone the self the self the self optimization um crowd basically yeah basically that and someone DM me saying how fragile do you have to be to need to to micromanage every aspect of your life under the guise of health or something to that effect. And I really liked this. I thought it was great. And I think there's a certain kind of like if you look at the most rigid people in the world,

like that's not control. That's coping. Yeah. So when you have a certain sense of like, like I like to think you and I, I like to think we could be dropped in a gym. We'd do a workout or if we were dropped in a bar, we'd pull a pint. Like it wouldn't bother us that much

if you dropped us in any. building in the world randomly now and I said look I'm going to put carl and Paul in a building for an hour I'm not going to tell you if it's a gym a bar a restaurant you and I would we'd adapt we'd have a pint or else we'd do a workout or else we'd have a salad it wouldn't matter because you just be like next so I think you need that flexibility I think a flexible mind is the hallmark of a really good relationship it's basically the ability to be like whatever situation I mean I trust myself and how can someone become more flexible in their approach and they're thinking when it comes to someone who has had these rigid food rules.

I think you have to challenge them. I think you have to start to like what are the food rules? Like don't drink your calories. Why? Like why? What will happen if I drink 83 calories of orange juice or no carbs or no skipping breakfast or why do I need somebody else to tell me what to do? What are the food rules that I've been living by for years?

Like I still have like 30, 40, 50 year old somethings, something year old, pardon? say like, oh, I know I shouldn't eat bread, but and I'm kind of like, shouldn't eat bread? Why? And they're going back to a moment where they heard it like at nine from their mother or from their dad or whoever the hell it was. So I think you have to be willing to challenge the rules. I think you've to start to incorporate food and maybe do like an element of like putting together different foods. Like if I get a chocolate bar, but then I put

it in my oats. Is that good or bad now? You need to test your own style of thinking. So having being able to challenge those rules, being able to normalize food, make peace with food. I don't know how cliched. These are. They feel cliched in my head because I've been talking about them for so long, but making peace with food. Unconditional permission to eat is a big one. It's like knowing that you can eat, not that you will eat. And celebrating your wins is a little one. Like if you, that's not quite the same thing as a part of your question, but one thing that I've noticed

is people tend to, people in the diet cycle tend to focus only on what they did wrong. Like someone I'm working with, we're working on her alcohol consumption right now. And we're trying to get her from drinking down from four nights to, to, well,

to actually to zero was her idea. I was like, yeah, whatever, try it. First thing she says, I failed. I'm thinking, oh, what happened? And she goes, I wanted four nights. I only got two. And in my head, I'm like,

it's literally a 50% improvement. Like, I failed No you two less nights with booze Like that's It's probably like Dress it up how you want

But if you can't celebrate the little wins I don't know how you're going Did you talk about it recently? You did you had a post or a story Where you literally cannot bypass the tiny winds And then expect to arrive at happy or whatever Yeah It literally is that

It literally builds momentum to In order to achieve the big things Big things But again you're not going to enjoy the big things If you can't enjoy the small things absolutely how could you yeah like what are you gonna do just be thrilled on day 91 but miserable for the first 90 days yeah so i think being willing to celebrate little wins like that but yeah challenging

that's so that's so hard for people to do by themselves isn't it because i i even find like i'll i'll i'll go and i'll write that and i'll know it's true and like you know i'll be able to internally understand that that's true and yet i'll forget to do it or i'll you know beat myself up for for not doing things perfectly why i didn't think this is going to become a car coached god i i i'm intrigued i think it's just um you know it's it's an innate part of the human brain to to look at the negative side or to see it as a threat or um conditions not practiced enough maybe.

Do you think sometimes when you talk about perfection is like a subconscious like really subconscious belief that like I'm almost trying to prove nothing I do is good enough like it's not going to be good enough anyway. Yes, I think so. I think so.

I think it kind of goes back to what we talked about, the full loop. Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah, I just find it interesting when I talk to you know people I really consider high performers high achievers yeah um they always have some version they seem to have some version of what you kind of talk about and i don't know maybe do you need

a certain element of perfectionism and and kind of like fear and worry in your life to light a fire in your ars to get going like i think i meant smarter people than me theorize on this question and they haven't come up with a satisfactory answer in a way but would you say would you say i think celebrating your wins would you say in your own life there you could point to some sort of success in your life that there could have been a degree of worry or self doubt or criticism that helped propel you to where you were, even if it wasn't the fuel or the source that you used forever in order to achieve it? I mean, look, bodybuilding was my subconscious attempt to feel attractive. Yeah. Because I didn't feel particularly wanted attractive, popular as a boy. But to be honest,

no since I kind of had that epiphany and I would say that kind of dare I say awakening like I'm no longer using dirty fuel I like I can work long days I could I could write for powers coach with the whole day train and not feel like I'm using dirty fuel so now I and this is I think this is why I've gotten so passionate that I think there's a little bit of an epidemic on I have to suffer and be miserable to see progress and growth I really do and I'm trying to probably not as well as I could but I'm trying to create the message that like I wish people could experience more joy and more peace and more happiness in the journey. Don't use dirty fuel.

You don't need to hate yourself to get there. If you're not enjoying your exercise program, experiment. Experiment is a great word. That's something I'd love to say you talk about even more. Just give yourself permission to start experimenting. Like my favorite modality of exercise is now gymnastic rings. And I only really started getting serious about them recently. I'm not very good, but I'm working on it.

I'm not very good. To be fair, I don't say that. But then my girlfriend reminds me, You're not really good because you follow the top five guys in the world, you idiot. And it's the same because I'm like, oh, babe, the book isn't doing great. She's like, you're comparing yourself to Morgan Housel again, aren't you? And I'm like, yeah. So I still fall into it.

You know, it doesn't, I don't feel it impedes me. Like I look at gold standards that I admire and I don't think it's a bad thing. Like I don't get bogged down if I said less than Housel. But I, he made, I'm a spy. I'm looking at Housel going, wow, I'd love to achieve even a modicum of that man's success. Yeah, I just, no dirty fuel. If you can just get yourself to a place where you're willing to experiment,

quit the gym for six months and go doing body weight squats on your kitchen floor. Like, go experiment in a way that invigorates your life. Like run tiny experiments. Yeah. Try new diety things. Like, Is it inevitable though? Is it inevitable though?

Because if you even think about, okay, you start your first experience probably with lifting, uh, resistance base. training was the dirty fuel of trying to look attractive by doing bodybuilding and then that develops into okay I'm you know doing bodyway exercises purely for the joy of it so if sometimes it feels like it's an it's inevitable that like your journey will start with some degree of self-hatred even if and then even if it transforms into something beautiful then it's true but most people who hire me have already exhausted the self-hatred piece so I'm now like I we're coming down the mountain again now.

So that's kind of the part that interests me the most. And also there's something, I'm trying to think of the words for this. I haven't yet thought about it in my head, but there's something really exciting about like reinvention or becoming or like stepping into a real new phase of life where you're just like, I mean, it's, I don't talk about it often. I'd love to, but I, the reason I love travel so much is because I feel, like if you ask my girlfriend, like I'm a very different person abroad.

I'm not shy anymore. I feel like people don't have a preconceived notion of me. I can walk into a group and I can own it in ways I can't do back home. Like I'm a different person here, just endlessly energetic. I find it very exciting when you can just reinvent yourself and nobody knows who Paul 36 from Ireland has been before. That's very exciting to me. But I don't think you need to go to Feck and Sone and South Creatory and like to recalibrate or reinvent your life either. Sometimes I think you can make up and go, I'm done.

Like I'm done eating crap I don't need. One little tiny example. I just want to use this because this is very, very common, more common than you think. a group emotional eating coaching in 2020. Really fun. And one person said, like, oh, now that I'm allowed to eat whatever I like, I realize I actually don't like many other chocolate bars at all. I only like Terry's chocolate orange. Like Terry's is gorgeous and the rest of them. I was just kind of eating because I was on and off diets and that kind of thing. I was like, that's amazing. And then I had one other woman who for a week, she would go to the grocery store and she was like,

when I'm on the diet, I love everything. Now that I'm off it, like I don't have any, I'm still looking for my Terry, she would joke. But this, it extended to everything. She was like, I don't know what I enjoy. So I haven't eaten for pleasure in like 20 years. Like, her world had almost been shattered by the realization that dieting had dominated her. And I think there's kind of a part in life where if you talked about the loop thing and that you really need to

feel something, feel it in order to integrate it. And I think she felt something in her that actually changed her, which is like, I can't go back, but I don't know what I like. I have no idea. And I remember working work and we're going, that's okay. Like we're not trying to overcome or fix anything. We're trying to integrate.

You're trying to integrate your love of sweets. And I think a lot of change starts from self-improvement. I'm not a big fan of self-improvement. I think it starts from the premise you're not enough. I love self-understanding. Who am I? Who don't want to be? So self-improvement?

No, not for me. Self-understanding all the way. And so like, I think when you get to that place where you start questioning fuck what do I like or who have a you know your patterns just become obvious to you it shows up in different ways for different people and you know I cannot I cannot go on being like the person I was before I think they're cool moments like I actually think that's a good thing yeah so and it happens more than you might think yeah yeah and last question I have for you as well so the wagon doesn't exist yeah so I think this has become very popular to say

over the last few years. In my head, when I was coaching years back when I used to hear it, it was an original in my head in terms of I used to hear people talk about the wagon. And I used to be sitting there in like personal training session going, you do know, you don't like, I just, I always thought of a train, and I always thought of a train on a track that constantly crashed going, maybe just don't take that route. But yeah, the wagon doesn't exist.

Like on and off, on again, off again dieting is a, it doesn't have to exist. There's a better way. That's it. when I say it doesn't exist and you're struggling with it, it can be so unhelpful. But there's a better way. There's no on and off. Nutrition is a spectrum.

It's not like a tight rope or a wagon you fall on or off. It's a spectrum where you kind of like your habits are either like overall they're quite poor, all the way over. So generally speaking, they're excellent. And the reason I'm so big on values and habits is last night I was drinking some beers. After the North Korean border, we went for some beers and some kind of grilled food. was it the healthiest meal of the planet? Obviously not.

Do I consider myself a very healthy well-rounded dude? Of course I do. So if you saw me that one micro moment, they go, he's off the wagon. I'm like, no, I'm having a beer. What the fuck's wrong with you, right? Like, and I remember in 2015, one of our best mates was getting married.

It was our first stag party. And one of us had just signed up with a personal trainer and he forbid him from going to the stag. He's like, if you're serious about getting cut, man, you won't go. but my buddy came anyway but he had the worst time he had to have protein bars every three out

like honestly man the advice was like it'll make you we laugh about it now but even we went down for burgers the 12 of us I swear she came down and she was 11 burgers and a salad

and put it down in front of him and you could just see the misery and we look back laughing but we're like oh he was on such a wagon that he couldn't even go to his own best mate's tag party I have a burger and a few beers

Like But even like Even if it did make him gain five pounds of a If he's okay with that consequence Who is anybody else to tell him That it's not a wise choice for that moment So like I again you're trying to I'm trying to frame things in the book

For people who may not have actually asked these questions Like oh my God I am on the wagon Or oh yeah I do see it as a very binary thing to fall off Like I said I live in Spain most of the time. And they drink during the day a lot in Spain. So if you saw me

at lunchtime having a beer with lunch in Ireland, you'd be like, I just saw Paul, it's just down in Tean Ockton's drinking beer by himself. Are him in order to broken up? Is he okay? But when you see me in Spain, don't do the wagon. It's just like, yeah, it's Friday. It's time to dream.

So I think also that has shaped my perspective so much too. The Vietnam thing, the Spain thing, like those cultures really don't do on and off. Like they just do, who is a spectacle. And then we close the kitchen between meals. And then that kind of thing. So I'm trying to bring a little bit of that wisdom back home with me, man.

Yeah, I love that. Tell me a little bit about the book. Where can people go and purchase this? Full, the emptiness of overeating. Excellent tile. And also, a question that I wanted to ask about, a lot of these concepts you've been speaking about for the last 10.

years so and a lot of people talk about when they write a book they they you know you're writing about what you know but you're also kind of learning along the way as well did anything when you were in the process of writing the book did that did anything did anything new come up um for you uh through the process of writing um or or was it everything you know that that you've already already spoke about and just condensed into this book because obviously it's a bit of a the process and an experience in itself. The closest thing that came up that I would, if I write a second book, I'd like to touch on more.

It's kind of chapter 12 where I talk about like shadow self-image projection. That's the thing that I'm most like, psychology is my first love. It really is. Like I've always just loved it. There's a great line from Alanda Botan. Do you know Alanda Baton? Oh, I adore him.

I figured you would. I knew you would. That's a stupid question. He has a great line. He was asked in a podcast. where they said, like, Alanne, did you have an easy childhood? He goes, I don't think you can talk about the things I talk about if you've had an easy childhood. And I, and I didn't have a particularly bad childhood by any means, but I struggled.

I struggled in ways that I now understand, you know, just to fit in and, you know, my extremely obsessive personality and integration. Now I understand myself better, but back then it was a nightmare. So in chapter 12, I touched on what I was learning that I didn't really have the conviction to go harder in and also that my editor was like don't make this chapter any fucking longer so there was that but no the thing i learned to be honest was just just do the fucking book because i self-published it i created the cover i created the book i did the whole thing myself every part of it except editing so i mean i obviously wrote the thing but my mike edited the book um so the only thing i

really learned was to make the psychological shift from guy with a dream to do the fucking thing yeah That was it. Yeah. Do you think that will, that will escalate now and we'll have, I know, I shouldn't be asking, yeah, there will be a second one when we're going to promote the first one. But you do see that with, you do see that with riders, don't you?

Is that once they, once they write that first one, they, you know, break down them barriers and they're like, yes, I am, I am a rider and then the process continues. I hope so. The plan is definitely to write a second one. I would love to. I'll tell you what, like, I mean, the book sells quite well for self-published indie,

book, but I have a scary dream that I wanted to, I mean, look, it makes me nervous, even say it publicly, but like, I have a dream that I would love it somehow to push it and to keep going and that it, like, I don't know, maybe gets into book. I have a friend who went self-publishing and he had France and India kind of company by the rights to translate his self-published book and it's doing quite well now. So I take a lot of motivation from that. A second book is definitely on the cards. I think it would be more of a general, like, transformation kind of, again,

transformation can sound a bit dicky, but like one of my deep philosophies is, Carol, I don't believe in laziness. Like, I don't believe it exists. Just one of my perspectives. I think what looks like laziness is often just self-doubt or procrastination or worried or thing. I think it's just like, honestly, I think it's a word to block you from 99% of the context, you know, that kind of thing. So I'd love to write more of a general principle book like why laziness doesn't exist or how to be, we aim to be very logical when we change, but I'd rather be sensitive. Like one chapter I'm kind of playing with is like it's it sounds logical to coach calories by a thousand, but it's not sensible and trying to kind of create a logic versus sensible kind of thing or logic says skip breakfast to reduce your calories. Sense says you overeat every time you do that, that kind of thing. So yeah, I hope there's a second book if I can find the words. We'll see. It's the plan. Paul, this is a big. Do you see a book in you before we go?

the self doubt that you have I'd say mine is by 100x I would love to but I also know that I have a lot more I need to do a lot more writing before

maybe another maybe another I would love to write a book on connection and loneliness like you know I kind of you seem like you've the heart of a like you really see the heart of a storyteller yeah

I yeah well maybe maybe having a one-to-one conversation with someone but uh getting that down onto paper um is is it's probably a big step but it's it's definitely something that's you know again kind of even like the same with the podcast is like even if i did it and i did it because in the process you know it made me understand the topic a little bit more and i got you know something out of it that way that that that would be great. It would definitely be something on, I'd say, connection and loneliness. I think a lot of the stuff that I listen to now, even in terms of the content I consume with

politics or philosophy or anything like that, I think that all kind of transition from loneliness and connection as well. I find that really interesting, obviously, going from the fitness and the nutrition part to connection and that would definitely be something that I'd be interested. I do a lot of writing in regards to that. Some of it I post, some of it I don't post, some of it I put on subsack, some of it I don't. But I'm definitely not there yet, but maybe in a couple of years.

I'm not, I would never just say a false compliment for the sake of it. I actually want a little oath that I privately live with my client. I never lie, never tell a lie. It's feedback or it's like now, but it's never lie. but you've seen you've all struck me to that I've seen some of your substack stuff I kind of just meant the assumption that a book now I know it's a big undertaking and the reason I'm not like oh you should definitely do it's a huge undertaking the best advice I got was that the last when you're self-published

the last 10% is 90% of the work and I was like like the last 10% is 90% of the word I just wrote a book book me carol the last 10% is 90% of the work you just get so obsessed with it and the oh yeah was it was it was but if it something yeah Was it difficult to cut parts out to be kind of rootless with the editing part? No. No, my editor was, he was great and he kind of, we ended up getting into a place where we just cut parts that weren't like timeless that I might not believe in. Like, pause is timeless. Like, black or white thinking is timeless.

But like my opinion on my father-in-law's death wasn't really timeless. So there was a chapter on perspective that we just cut out, that kind of stuff. Actually, the best writing, best writing advice I got was from James Sexton. and he said, write one page a day and in a book you have a year. And I don't know if that helps you, but that actually was the one that started the, maybe I actually can finish it this time. And obviously you look back with a little bit of Rose Tintagga's on the past. But I really feel that when he said that, that was the one that made me go,

yeah, I think this will be in the book. So write a page a day and in a year you have a book. I'll take that on board. But for now, I'll continue to read your little gems. Paul, where can people go out to find this book? Thank you dude. I appreciate it. Amazon, anywhere in the world. It's self-published, so only Amazon, no bookstores. But all I can say is we outsold Oprah one week on Amazon and that was all the win I needed. I love that. Listen, this conversation has been long overdue. I really appreciate it. Thank you for giving me your time.