The Uneducated PT Podcast - Ep 171 The Working Man's Case for Life: Tradies for Babies

Episode Date: July 23, 2026

Abortion is almost always framed as a women's issue — but what happens when working-class men decide they can no longer sit on the sidelines? In this episode, we sit down with the founder of Tradies for Babies, a grassroots movement bringing tradesmen into one of the most divisive conversations in modern Ireland. We go deep into the personal moment that turned him from bystander to activist, why he believes men have a moral obligation to speak up, and why he built this movement specifically around working-class identity rather than politics or religion. We don't shy away from the hard questions. We talk bodily autonomy versus the rights of the unborn, the backlash he's faced for taking a public stance, and whether modern culture has lost the ability to disagree without demonising each other. We also bring the conversation home to Ireland, discussing the proposed removal of the three-day waiting period before abortion — and the roughly 10,400 women between 2019 and 2024 who didn't return for a procedure after that reflection period. This isn't a comfortable conversation. It's not meant to be. It's an honest attempt to ask a question modern society rarely asks anymore: not just can we, but should we? Whether you agree with him or not, this conversation will make you think harder about where you stand — and why.

Sean, for anyone who's listening who may not know you, who you are, what exactly Trades for Babies is, can you just elaborate on that for everyone? Yeah, sure. So Trades for Babies is pretty much a, at the moment we're a social media group where we make videos where men trade men, so Trades, we speak against abortion. So we pretty much encourage men to send in videos speaking their pro-life message and speaking against abortion and why they think other people should be against abortion. We pretty much invite men to speak against why they in their life think abortion is wrong.

And then also like sort of like a nominal pro-life message. So like we've gotten a few videos where people will share their story about why abortion is wrong. So, you know, like myself and other people, how we had an abortion when we were younger. And that sort of, you know, like we teach people that. that was the worst thing that we had happened to us and and how we want other people to not make the same mistake so it's sort of like it's a mission where we're encouraging men to speak about against abortion because we we feel like men haven't been speaking on the issue and um yeah it's really blowing up so it's been pretty exciting before starting this movement what did life look like for you like

so obviously you've you've touched on how this this issue became important to you after you and your wife went through this experience. What was life like before that? Yeah, well, so we had an abortion when we were 17, and then we actually only started speaking against it when, so Simone, my wife was actually making pro-life content on another page called Birdflip. And I said that I wanted to make a video,

and I was just at work in my trade gear, in my high-vis gear. And I pretty much just said men should speak against abortion because something. And then that got like a lot of views. And then we sort of started to see that there was, you know, something in just this, you know, working man class like normal every day person, man speaking against abortion. And then, yeah, that started blowing up. But like, yeah, everyday sort of life before this, I guess we were, you know, really wanted to get involved in the pro-life movement because we were sick of people being told the lie that, you know, there's just a comp of cells. It's not a lie like you, you know, they're like this, this, the normal lives in society.

So. Can I ask you ask you a question? So obviously, obviously you were 17 when you ended up getting the abortion. Do you feel like you and your wife were almost like culturally manipulated into taking that decision? Because I would imagine, you know, the cultural narrative is, oh, you're 17, you're too young to have kids. When, you know, true our entire, you know, existence, it was a very normal thing for people to have kids at that age. yeah i think like i don't like to take too much of the earnest and um culpability off of myself like i did obviously make that decision um and i do regret that and you know wear that mistake

but yeah i definitely you know everyone that we went to around that time when we asked about it just said it's nothing it's a comp of cells don't worry about it like you're literally doing nothing wrong. And then it wasn't until later when, you know, we learned there wasn't a conference that it wasn't. And, you know, our child that we killed. That's when we really, you know, wanted to speak against it. And, you know, make sure that no one had to live through this again.

So, like, that's sort of what we drive that is if we can teach, like, a new generation of culture of young people to show them what it actually is, the decision that they're making that they will regret it for the rest of their lives and and that it is their child. So yeah, and we're getting so many stories of like men coming and saying that they have the similar experience. And yeah, I think that's really a big part of our mission is to change that that social life about all of the things that they're told about the unborn. Yeah. Yeah. I do feel like, I understand what you're saying in terms of taking your own responsibility for your own decision.

But again, if you're looking down the line now at a 17-year-old who gets this information and they're like, oh, am I going to be a dad now? And then you have this kind of cultural narrative that you're too young. And we have this kind of, I feel like we do have this very, like across Western society, whether it's in Ireland or whether it's in Australia or whether it's across Europe

or whether it's in the States, this kind of anti-natal, you know, anti-family narrative that seems to be pushed across the West. Do you feel that? Yeah, totally. Yeah, it's everywhere. Well, look at like the driving factor that would be like financial stability. Like people are even told in their 30s not to have a child if they're not ready financially. So like it's definitely, you know, these are called circumstantial arguments, right?

So like people will say, well, if they're not in a circumstance to be able to have a child, then they should kill it. It's like, when did we ever have that as a reason to kill people? So it's just like, yeah, we definitely need to change people's thinking of, like, it all comes down to human dignity. Like, when should you be allowed to kill someone? Never, right? Like, you should never be able to kill an innocent person. And circumstantial events shouldn't change that. So like with finance and, you know, like say you're 17 and you get pregnant and you're not ready, then like you should have to try and make that work.

Like it should, I think, and that's what we're going to, I think, like, I think that's what we need to be calling men to do is that we need to be, you know, go back to being the provider and the, be able to teach men how to, do that for their family and be that that strong sort of provider and strength for their for their family and their child you know and then there's the other narrative that comes with that as well as it's not even a lot of the times it's not even about security a lot of the times it's about oh you have your whole life to live you you know what about your freedom this hyper individual society and it's like okay like do all these things now you know live your life get your career and then you know go and go and have kids and then people people are and I always say this about even the education system in Ireland or the the the sex ed education it's like they're doing everything in

their power to teach kids not to get pregnant and and you know talking about all that that stuff but they don't ever have the flip conversation about actually um you know your fertility window and the longer you leave it, the less chances there are for you to actually have kids and have a family. And that is actually essential. That is the thing that most people want. I know there's a percentage of people that don't want to have kids. That's absolutely fine, individual choice and all that. But there is a lot of people who actually want to have kids and then don't end up having kids

due to this kind of social narrative that we've created in the West. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But like, if you're talking about purpose, like a man is built to find his purpose through sacrifice. Like sacrifice is one of the driving factors that a man needs to find purpose. So like there isn't anything better to sacrifice than, you know, for your family. Because you, the amount of things that you were sacrificed when you have a child is, you know, like you're sacrificed time, energy, commitments.

and like that there will give you so much purpose specifically as a man because that is the is a way that we as men show love because a way that we can show love is through showing actionally you know how we how we can do that so I think with the family like it's so I think at the moment we're seeing a crisis of men not having a purpose and we're seeing a lot of men sort of caught in that voice like we know that there's a crisis of men in loneliness and and purpose so i think we do need to call to men to say like having a family is an amazing thing that will give you the purpose of your life like it's just you know incredible um you know and if men want to go the other way not have family that that's okay but but we do need to to teach that

that is not awful yeah and um and and you will find you know be incredibly it would change your life. Yeah, I think like I 100% agree. So if someone, if someone doesn't want that, that's absolutely fine. We're not saying that, but the conversation has definitely swayed

far the other way as it or having kids or having a family will ruin your life. And that definitely plays into the decision of young people when someone gets pregnant. What stands out immediately about your movement is obviously it deliberately involves men. Why do you think men need to be so involved in this conversation about abortion?

And what do you say to, let's say, you know, the pushback that some people on some sides of the political spectrum will be like, well, you're a man, you shouldn't have a say on this issue. No use, no opinion. That's my favorite argument. well my my my comeback to the no use no opinion is um like that automatically means that they don't define the unborn as an innocent biological human right so let's say you have a house and you you know that there's a shooter in the house and there's a toddler in the house right and you're walking by and you see this and you know that the shooter is going to go in and shoot the toddler um but they're inside the house so Is it your responsibility to go and save that child in that house? Yes, it is your responsibility. And it's actually more of your responsibility if it is your child. But even if you know that that situation is going to happen

and you're aware of that situation, it is the duty of a person, not just a man, but a person to go and save that child. So it's never a good argument to say that someone shouldn't have an opinion on people being killed. because it's it's the duty of us specifically men to save the vulnerable and save the weak. And I've been thinking more about this recently is that it's actually it's in us as men to defend and protect and to stand in the void.

But it's what's actually in us is to fight. So like we were called to fight for good, not just to defend good, but to actively fight against. the evil. So like if someone is is going to attack, let's say, an innocent child, then we would protect them, but then we would actually fight to make sure that there was something that would protect this child. So I think the reason why it's so important that men come into the abortion debate is that we need to be on the side of women and show that we're there for them, that we will stand up for them, protect them, and that will actually fight for life.

So I think that the pro-choice movement is actually a disservice to women, and they don't know it, but obviously they think that it's really, really bad for them. But the pro-choice movement is really, antithetical to women because it says that they, you know, aren't able to do things without having a child like that they'll be successful, but they need to kill their children.

But the pro-life movement says, no, like, you can do all of these things. And we think that women are incredibly strong and can do these things and have children. Like women are like, you know, this powerhouse, but they've been told that they aren't unless they kill their children. So with men stepping into that, we're able to stand up for that and then also shelf that. And then we're able to fight for our children. So it's sort of a lot of things why I think men should be active in the abortion debate, many, many things. So what about the argument then that, you know, they say the,

the pro-choice movement say, well, this is about women's rights and about healthcare. And they don't believe that, you know, it is a child until, you know, it's born. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you sort of have to comment this in a very, um, you actually be very empathetical, right? because we're dealing with a very hard situation where some women genuinely, if you say to them, we're trying to take away abortion rights, that they will think that you're just coming up to them to say that you're going to, women are facing medical pregnancy, medical crisis and pregnancy, you're fighting to advocate for them potentially dying in a medical emergency.

Yeah. So when some people hear that we're trying to take away abortion rights, that's, what some people think and that's like really scary right like if you genuinely thought that someone's someone was coming to bring in a law that would actually have the potential to kill you in a pregnancy that that would be terrifying um because that's how they that's how the the the legalizing abortion came true in Ireland there was actually an Indian couple in Ireland and a woman uh ended up essentially dying and and that's how how it ended up getting pushed through so So I suppose.

Yeah. I think I know that one. Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember. I can remember her name. But yeah, they literally went to the doctor and there was nothing they could do for her. Um, essentially.

But see, that's so, um, so that's completely false, right? So there's never, there's never been a pro life law that has actively stopped a doctor from intervening with a medical emergency. So a pro life bill does not. not stop doctors operating on a medical emergency with a pregnancy. So an abortion is very, very different to life-saving treatment. So an abortion is the direct and intentional killing of the child, and life-saving treatment that might lead to the child's death is very different. So there you would, yeah, there's just any, any time someone would say that we're

fighting to take away women's health care. It's not healthcare to kill an innocent person. And an abortion is never necessary to save the life of a mother. So it's pretty much been proven throughout so many abortion doctors or ex-abortion doctors that an abortion is never ever used to save the life of a mother. So does that come down then to the doctors not being aware of the legislation of what they can and can't do in that particular instant? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So any circumstance where a doctor said that they failed to do something because they thought

that they would be providing an abortion was definitely due to some form of malpractice. So I think there was one in Ireland, maybe that one, but there was a big one in Ireland, I think, where they didn't, or was it America, they didn't operate on her because they thought that it would be an abortion law that they were breaking and she ended up going septic. But actually that came down to malpractice because it would. have been legal for them to operate on it. I think that's the Irish case. Yeah, I think that's the Irish case.

And then that's when the referendum took place. Yeah, Simone was just telling me in Ireland you guys are fighting for a three-day band to go away or something. I was going to get into this question. And this is why,

essentially I wanted to get John because it would be a good time to get John as well. Where they're trying to push through that banning so they essentially part of the part of the referendum was that there would be a three day wait

and during them three days you know they would the the couple or the woman would go have a think about it and then come back and then decide and I think it was roughly around 10,400 women who initially saw an abortion did not return after

the waiting period which is basically evidence that you know a lot of amazing yeah a lot of a lot of babies were born off the back of that three day weight. And now they're trying to basically abolish the three day weight saying that, oh, they've already made up their mind by that stage. And, you know, it's the three day weight is not for medical purposes.

It's, it's more, you know, policy and they basically want to get rid of it. So, which is. Yeah. And I think a lot of people, I think a lot of people of, of different kind of podcasts, and interviews and debates that I've been listened to. I think a lot of people who might have been even in the pro-choice camp in terms of voting for that, you know, they voted for that with the information that there would be a three-day way.

And now they feel like they have been let down. And it's just, you know, the slippery slope is getting, you know, deeper and deeper. And I'm trying to push more and more kind of legislation through. So, yeah, I don't know what you think about that. Is it similar? in Australia. I don't know what the laws are around abortion on Australia.

Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you, I'll just have a question about that island one. Is that for any gestational limit or is it like you go into getting abortion and then it's three days no matter what, or is it certain gestation or? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I wouldn't, but if

I'd be guessing if I was giving you the actual answer there, I'll have to go into it. It must be any time that they go to book it in. Well, that's, yeah. Well, in Australia, the reason why we're, you know, sort of what we, when we got involved, we were really active on fighting the abortion up to birth. So currently in Australia, if you were to Google it right now, is abortion legal up to birth?

It would say no on Google. It would say 24 weeks. But, or 22 weeks, I can't remember. But it actually is legal up to birth because one of the things that you need to do, just to get it's at any gestation is to get a doctor to sign, or you need two doctors to sign up on the abortion. But we found through the data from the abortions of the last two years that you can actually get an abortion for any reason.

And we say for any reason because there's documented cases of people getting an abortion for psychosocial reasons, which means literally a woman could wake up, you know, 30-something weeks feels like she doesn't want to be a mother. anymore go to the doctor tell them that she's having some sort of mental mental illness and say like look I can't carry this child anymore I need an abortion and because she's there's no so because there's no legislation to say any determining circumstantial reason then that's why we say for any reason because you can just go and say this is what I'm feeling and get the abortion get the two signatures of the doctors. And then people will say like, oh, yeah, but they're two doctors.

They're not just going to, you know, sign it away for anything, but they have to, because what's stopping the doctors from saying that they can't get the abortion? There's nothing. There's no legislation to say why the doctor shouldn't sign the paper because, you know, a patient has come to them saying that she needs an abortion for mental illness. So if there's nothing in the law to say that they shouldn't sign it, then they can assign it. So, Yeah, so there have been documented cases of abortion, late term abortion in Australia. So that's what we've just been fighting. We actually just passed one of the first pro-life bills in history in Australia, which passed the upper house, but lost in the lower house.

That was a pretty cool victory. We lost, obviously, the bill that we passed. It was the first time it had ever been passed like in one house. So that was, yeah. And what was the, what was the bill? That bill was 26 weeks. 26 weeks. Yeah.

So I suppose then, if, if we're looking at kind of some of the, the pro choice crowd, their argument then is that, you know, it's not life until, until it's born, essentially. Born. Yeah. Birthly breath. Yeah. What would, what would be your, what would be your argument on your pushback? on that. Yeah, cool. So first of all, you would say, what is the difference between five seconds

before birth and five seconds after birth? If the pro-choice person says, well, it's breathing, well, then you could say, okay, let's take a, let's say a 24-week-old baby in the womb is able to be operated on. So at the moment, we have this, there's a case called his name is Sam Hang on I have the book here Sam I can't find

I think it was Sam Armament something Anyway so he was the first baby I think it was at 25 or 24 weeks So they were able to Take him out of the womb Yeah Put him on the operating table

Operate him And put him back in the womb Right And then he was able to continue His gestation So would we Because he was outside of So what's that six

What's that six months six months five weeks yeah about six months maybe so they were able to take him out of the womb at that gestational limit

put him on the operating table and operated on him and then put him back so when he was taken out of the womb should we have been able to kill him because he was on the operating table

yeah so they would say no right because it was outside of the womb so if we'd take that same baby and then put it back inside the womb should we be able to kill it. So hopefully they would say no. So why does the location of the baby decide when it can

or cannot be killed? So that's why that's when we get down to like the sled argument. So like all pretty much all pro-choice arguments rest upon size, location, environment and degree of dependency. Explain that for me. Explain that for me. So size, so like most people will pick a gestation limit as to when it should be killed. So like size being someone might pick six weeks, someone might pick, you know, 39 weeks or like, you know, and so they pick a size of when they think it should be killed. So we never should be able to decide when a person can or not be killed because of size, right? So should we be able to kill you because you're six foot?

So if you're six foot, then should we be able to kill someone that's five foot? If six foot is the decision for, you know, what gives someone human value? No. And then, so then we have size, level of development. So level of development is the gestational limit or like attributes of the state. child so like consciousness like have they acquired consciousness or not and then you have environment which we just went through so should we've had to kill this person because they're you know over here in this room or over there in that room and then degree of dependency is that's

this degree of dependency is probably one of the major ones at the moment because most people will bite the bullet and say okay the human the baby is human and but it doesn't matter because my bodily autonomy actually matters more than than this child. So because it's dependent on me, then I should be able to kill it. And that's my choice because I don't care if it's human. I don't care if it's a baby. I don't care about all of these other factors. But because it's dependent on me, my bodily autonomy is more important.

And I should be able to kill it because of that. That's probably the biggest. Yeah, bodily autonomy arguments are the biggest, hardest ones because you do have to say to someone, yes, your bodily autonomy is, we do value bodily autonomy as people, but no one has the right of bodily autonomy to use their bodily autonomy to kill someone else. So the minute that I'm allowed to, you know, move my hands, but as soon as I go out in public and start hitting people with my hands. My bodily autonomy is cut short, right? Yeah.

So there's, you sort of do have to say that no one has the right to kill other people, no matter, you know, how dependent they are on you. So, yeah. Do you think that society has desensitized itself from abortion by, like, changing the language around pregnancy and life and. Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah, look at like how they, some people will genuinely think that the baby is a parasite.

Yeah. Which is, you know, like people will say parasite or they'll say, you know, like they just use such dehumanizing language towards the baby. And they just have no idea. Like, I wouldn't even get into an argument now with a pro-choice person that thinks that the baby isn't human. Because like some people will say, oh, it's not, it's not human. It's like, okay, you're not worth a time right now. you're not you're not you're not going to be able to change their whole indoctrinated opinion and fight but it's so it's not even worth doing oh it's yeah so sad it's so

sad but those are the people that we need to you know teach because they genuinely like and it's such a dangerous um mindset because if you're thinking you know like we we talk about this all the time is that this culture of death is not isolated to abortion because like you you think about like when people start thinking about the dehumanization of a person. Like that's when you get atrocity everywhere. Like, and we see it, you know, in the way that people treat, you know, everyone. Yeah. So I kind of, I kind of stumbled onto this topic as well through a lot of, I was, I was looking at a lot of the,

the euthanasia thing where they're basically, you know, killing off old people. And then they're, they're packaged. it up as compassion. And then you obviously have the slippery slope there. There was a case of a of a poor Spanish girl who was, I think she was like 16 or 17. And she went through like horrendous circumstances where, you know, her family let her down.

She ended up on drugs. She ended up in, you know, stay care where she was like gang raped multiple times. And then she tried to die by suicide. And, you know, she ended up getting paralyzed. And then, you know, they. Josh. Yeah. So then she, she wanted to get used euthanasia and the state were basically accepted it.

And they and they, the state essentially let her down and by not protecting her in state custody. And then they followed it up by saying, oh, well, she's gone through too much pain. You know, it's the more compassionate route to let her die by eunasia. And I'm like, okay, well, you're dressing, you're using. your language like is it's so you know it's so sinister you're using your language to try to create this this is health care this is women's care this is compassion this is whatever you know but if you if you if you if you dig into it it's okay you're creating a you're creating a state system that you're just killing off

humanity hmm and you could I mean you can't obviously put them to together but like with abortion um you're not ending your own life you're ending your child's life yeah like go and look at the mental um the mental state of the women that have had abortion like it's the the depression of these women is like the studies that have been shown on is you know through the roof of women that that have um depression or or some sort of mental illness after having an abortion so it's it's so damaging and the lie that's that's abortion is empowering to women is just, just so, so bad. Like, it's just, you know, it's just the worst thing that you could ever have in a society,

like telling parents that they can kill their children. And like, that's when you would, you know, use the argument of the, there's this thing called the toddler analogy. Whereas like, when would you ever stay to a parent? Like, take any circumstantial argument about why someone should have an abortion. like let's say that a woman has four children, she's about to have a fifth one, but she's really, really poor,

and if she has the fifth one, then she'll have to lose her house. So let's say, should she be able to kill one of her four children to be able to then bring the baby in because then it's the same number of children? No, like you should never be able to kill anyone because of any circumstantial circumstance.

So like we then we should focus on, you know, those, those problems. But yeah, no, it is, it is awful. And we definitely need to do better as a society for sure. Have you found since taking a public stance on this has a bra criticism in terms of your personal life? Because obviously it's such a super sensitive topic for a lot of people. And then obviously when you do, like everyone will have their, Everyone will have their opinions.

And a lot of people, you'll probably find a lot of people agree with you, but they don't want to say it publicly because of backlash, whether that's friends, family, co-workers, whatever it is. And then you've took this stance on a very kind of hyper masculine trade as well, which is like, and I suppose to tell me a little bit about that as well, because I think that's, I think that's the beauty of, of your, of your message and of your page is that like, you know, the last people you would think that are standing up for this are tradies for which I think is great. So did you find that you got

any kind of, you know, pushback criticism personally. I'm sure obviously online there's always going to be a degree of that anyway because everyone's going to have their opinion online. And then what was your also, what was your reaction to me or what was people's reaction in terms of tradies as well. Yeah, yeah. I didn't really find any backlash in within our own circles, you know, because we're all pretty around the pro-life movement. But definitely online, you know, like it's just so funny how people think.

What I was saying to Simone the other day is like, do these people not know that I went through a trade apprenticeship, you know, like I was an apprentice? like you know just the um there's nothing that anyone could say that would be you know like a construction site is yeah so there's nothing that's um gonna break break my skin like i think someone called me a ginger the other day i was like that's so funny that they think that that's a you know like an insult that's going to get to me um someone actually made a video the other day like making fun of me which is very funny um but yeah no a lot of hate online

probably good if people are making videos of you you're probably doing something right yeah yeah it's funny videos as well and actually some men have made some videos against us which is you know like they it's very interesting the you know men aren't allowed to speak against abortion

until it's a man speaking for abortion yeah you're not allowed talk unless you agree with me dead that's different yeah exactly But no, yeah, like the trading thing, right, is that's why Traders of Babies is blowing up, is because it's not, you know, like we've seen these intellectual men speak against abortion,

like Charlie Kirk, Michael Knowles, Trent Horn, Seth Gruber, you know, like they're all in suits, you know, like there's nothing wrong with that, obviously, and they, they have this intellectual sort of gravitas around them, but the thing of why I think Traders to Babes is blowing up because it's common sense to know that it's wrong to kill biological humans and people are getting mad because it's such common sense that um you know they're almost i think feel threatened because of it's it's such a the common man speaking against it so yeah i think the fact that it's even trade is like Trades, I'm not sure over in Ireland, but generally they're seen as, you know, like a lower sort of economic of, you know, like lower intelligence. And I think the fact that we can

stand in these videos and, you know, not necessarily even give good philosophical arguments, but just say the truth is what people are really, really liking. And people will love when you can actually speak truth and then inspire other. others to do the same. So yeah, I think that's why we're really, you know, blowing up is that people are actually able to gravitate towards something that they agree with. And they're seeing, you know, like the normal everyday tradie. Yeah, do it. So if, if history judges how we treat are, you know, most vulnerable in society, what do you think if we're looking back, if let's say the movements that you and many are pushing really starts to take steam and we start to

change how we look at these issues. What do you think, how do you think history will look back at us considering everything that's gone on? Yeah, well, I really hope that I know that we'll be on the right side of history. Like, look at every single human atrocity that's ever taken place in the history of humankind, it's always been titled as we did something wrong and this is what we did wrong and oh, it was that we treated these humans as a lower class than these humans. So like any time in history, when you treat humans as subhuman, you will see that they were wrong in history. And that is exactly what we have in the abortion debate is that we are taking a group of humans saying that there are a subclass of human that they can be.

killed and we're saying that that's not right and yeah we will definitely be on the right side of history just as william will be force was um and you know all of the other people that proved these human atrocities wrong if someone was listening to you now who completely disagrees with you um in terms of you know life starts at conception all this stuff what's one thing that you would genuinely want them to know um not even to change their mind, let's say, but just to understand why you're fighting for this cause. Yeah, yeah. Look, so there is no argument to show that a, that two human parents coming together and procreating

is anything other than human. We know that humans are persons. So if you, how do I have word that? There is no debate that a human is anything other than a human and then that it continues to be anything other than a human until it is born. So I would probably just invite anyone that is against the pro-life movement to really look into what it is that they're advocating for. I know it would be hard because people have been told that abortion is healthcare,

but genuinely go look at abortion victim photography because it'll really open your eyes to what abortion actually is. I know so many people are told that it's just a blob of tissue, it's just pregnancy tissue, it's just something that they're just taking out harmlessly, but that's just completely, completely wrong. Like an abortion is abhorrent, it's obscene, like it's really, really devastating. There's no nice way to do an abortion. where a human isn't tragically ripped apart or poisoned or starved. And yeah, just really, if you genuinely want to know why we're fighting against abortion, go and look at what abortion does to the babies and to women and realize that we're actually fighting for a good cause.

Do you have any recommendations? Let's say we have people listening to this here where kind of, They're just on, they're in the middle ground. Probably the people that are most likely for you to pull onto your side in this debate. Is there any like recommendations you would have in terms of like, I don't know, documentaries, YouTube videos, like anything in terms of getting a real idea of what abortion actually looks like? Yeah, yeah, so many. Well, so just, first of all, you can just straight away Google. abortion victim photography.

That's really good for seeing the horror that that is. In terms of apologetics, definitely Stephanie Gray-Connor's has a lot of apologetics on abortion and why that's wrong. And yeah, Trent Horn, Scott Closendorf, like those are all apologetics.

But I say the number one thing that they've seen that studies have shown that will change someone's mind against abortion is abortion victim photography like you just have to look at what it does like it's just it's just awful okay um sean where can people go if they want to keep up with the work that you're doing yeah well tradies for babies on um all the all the socials definitely um if you're hearing this make a video for us send it in um if you're a tradian you want to speak the to the pro life movement we'll post your video online and yeah keep it up all right brilliant Sean I appreciate your time today thank you for for this call cheers thanks so much