The Uneducated PT Podcast - Ep.170 Learning How To Talk To Girls With Ben Campbell

Episode Date: July 14, 2026

EP170 | Learning How to Talk to Girls with Ben CampbellDating has never been more confusing for young men.In Episode 170, we're joined by Ben Campbell, a dating coach who helps men build confidence, improve their communication skills and navigate modern dating.We discuss why so many men struggle to approach women, how social media and dating apps have changed relationships, and what genuinely makes someone attractive beyond looks. Ben shares practical advice on overcoming rejection, improving your confidence and developing the social skills that lead to better relationships.In this episode we cover:• Why approaching women feels harder than ever• The biggest mistakes men make when dating• Confidence vs arrogance• How to start conversations naturally• Why rejection is part of the process• Dating apps and modern dating culture• Body language and first impressions• Building genuine confidence as a man• Red flags, green flags and healthy relationshipsWhether you're struggling to meet women, looking to improve your confidence, or simply curious about modern dating, this episode is packed with practical advice and honest conversation.If you enjoy the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a rating and let us know your biggest takeaway in the comments.

Yeah, okay. So I started in the self-improvement industry at like 14. I grew up, long story short, some family issues, things like that. I grew up with a lot of anxiety, anger problems, depression, things like this, but one of my main issues was one of loneliness. And I always say to people, I think what gets most men into self-improvement is either, I want to feel better, like they just feel bad, or usually it's, I'm lonely, I want attention from women. I want some sort of validation, some sort of love, that sort of thing. And so I think it's usually the entry point for most men into personal development is dating. And that's what it was for me as well. And so I started by reading a bunch of books and watching YouTube videos and

stuff like that. And I originally got into the sort of pickup scene back in the day. So there was a bunch of people down in London, like people like Kesea Noble and Richard Leruina and people like this that were publishing sort of pickup style content. And I soaked this shit up for years. I was like taking everything I could on it, thinking like, oh, this is how I become like a master of the game.

This is how I get girls and that sort of thing. Ben, would this would have been post-Neil Strauss in the game or pre- Yeah. Yeah. So this was around, so I'm 29 now. So when I was 15,

that must have been 2013. So this is shortly after the game and like the massive. of explosion and popularity of this stuff, but it was still whilst it was sort of kind of underground. Like I was talking with it about my, talking with my friends in school about it and stuff like that. Nobody had any fucking idea what I was talking about. So it was before it sort of became revealed as this big mainstream thing, but it was when it was gaining a lot of popularity. When I turned 16, 17, I used to go to nightclubs in my local city and either pay people for

their wristbands or like lick the stamp and get the stamp so I could get in. And I was going around like practicing all this stuff. And I remember distinctly one time I walked, I walked in, and this girl started hitting on me. And she was like, oh, I really love your hair. And I was like, okay, this is where the training kicks in, you know, and I sat there and I thought about it for a second, like, okay, how do I handle this? Okay, I got a neg her. I got to seem like I'm not interested. So I just went, thanks and turned away from her. And just sat and waited. I'm like, her panties are soaked, like this is building tension. This is, this is exactly what I need to do. And of course, I turn back around. She's fucking.

go on. Yeah. For people who are listening, Negan is from the game, isn't it? From Neil Strausses. It's so, so to clarify,

yeah, to clarify, I don't teach pickup shit. I'm not into that stuff anymore. I think it's actually, it works, but it's very nefarious and it's based in, in dodgy foundations.

Yet, negging is essentially, you're trying to make it seem like you don't care about this person or to lower her sense of, so all, all pick up stuff fundamentally, the basic premise. And,

and some of the, guys that teach it are aware that this is what they're doing. And a lot of them are just parroting stuff. They don't really know. But the basic foundational sort of philosophy of pickup is that you don't feel good enough about yourself, right? So you think your own self-worth, your value as a person is low. You think I can't get the things I want naturally. I don't deserve it. I'm not good looking enough. I'm not high status enough. This is why you get into this stuff in the first place. And so you're down here. And then because men are very visually focused, they see pretty girls and they think, oh, well, pretty girl has high values. So she's like a, they

use the suffix HB like Hot Babe, so HB8, HB9. It's all like analytical fucking autistic bullshit, right? But so it starts with this, this hierarchical sort of mentality thing going on there. And the, the idea is that over the course of the set, as they call it, they will say and do things to raise their own perceived sense of value while simultaneously making it seem like they don't really care about her, they don't need her attention of validation, or to make her feel worse about herself with nagging. Like, some of the things I read were ridiculous, like saying, oh, you know, those are,

it's really bold choice for you to be wearing those boots tonight. Or, yeah, you're hot, but not as hot as my ex-girlfriend and like shit like this. To get this, you know, slightly inebriated woman to feel worse about herself, to create this sort of power imbalance where she feels a little bit self-conscious. And there's this dynamic where she's insecure enough to want to fuck you. Yeah, she's chasing you then more so. Oh, I think you're pretty. I think you're pretty, but I could never be with you, et cetera, et cetera.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Same things. It's like, I'm not actually interested in you, even though you're pretty. Like, you have to qualify yourself to me sort of thing. So rather than trying to impress the girl, rather than trying to, like, make them like them, which they're still trying to do just in a subversive way. They're trying to flip that script to make the girl validate themselves to them, which really does work. Like, if you go to bars and nightclubs and stuff like that, it's the kind of environment where most guys are desperately trying to get laid. and then all of the women there are like, you know, they're seeking attention, validation, that sort of thing.

Not there's anything wrong with that. I'm not judging, but that's why a lot of girls go to these places. They feel good. They get free drinks. Like, it's this nice sort of flirty environment for them even if they have no intentions. And so for a guy to come in and act uninterested, it doesn't really work that well anymore. But, you know, if you're a slightly emotionally immature girl and like you're seeking this kind of validation, you're going to chase after that kind of thing. This is what I always say about the pickup stuff is that it does work. It works. It works. really, really fucking well. Like, if you're the kind of guy that wants to practice this stuff and then go out to nightclubs, you can get laid like a rock star, right? But it's going to be primarily with women who are emotionally immature, women that realize that you're playing games with

them and are playing games back or don't realize that you're playing games in which case you're just manipulating them. And so it's a good way to have really short-term shitty relationships or one-night stands, but it's not a great way to build like an actual foundation of connection with people, which is what I try to teach instead. Yeah. And I think that's kind of the premise of the as well. I think Neil Strauss comes to that realization over time that it's like, okay, yes, you can, you can get girls to be attracted to you, but the connection isn't there because you're actually playing a persona rather than being yourself. So then even though they're with you, they're never really with you. Yeah. And he wrote a follow-up as well. I can't remember what it was called. I haven't actually

read it, but I believe that's about his, his like exit from that and getting himself a wife and getting some real connection and things as well. I mean, fundamentally, what the, these guys want most of the time is they want affection, they want attention, they want love, they want, you know, this nice sort of romantic connection with women. And I think a lot of guys confuse that with sexuality. Like I can't remember who said this, but it really resonated with me. It's that men will often use sex as a means to intimacy, whereas women require intimacy in order to want to have sex.

And so that creates like this little bit of an imbalance there, but a lot of guys, they, they correctly associate vulnerability and emotion and like all of these things that might not naturally be expressed in modern society because we you know we grew up a little bit fucked up as guys they associate those things with femininity and and because they're not expressing their emotions properly the only time they really feel connected is when they're having sex with somebody and so i've met a lot of pickup guys that are constantly using these techniques and they're just sex addicts because they have to get to that point they have to get into bed with a girl in order to feel um any sort of connection with another human being, which is really fucked up. So where did your journey then go from?

Okay, you were probably on forms and you were learning about these, this kind of culture and this community. And then you were trying it out on the streets. And I don't know if you were working with a coach or you were doing it by yourself. So when did that transition then come from that to now, you know, helping, you know, men who might have anxiety approach for find connection? Yeah. So I practiced this stuff for a couple of years, like say from 15 to 17. I was trying really hard to make it work. And thankfully it didn't work that well for me. Like I got a couple of cases, took a couple of girls home, that sort of thing. But I kept, I kept running into roadblocks and obstacles. Because I hadn't, then we'll get to this,

but I hadn't fixed the internal issues that I was dealing with, like self-worth issues, the limiting beliefs, all of that sort of shit. And so I kept getting the same feedback from people, which is you're being fake, you're inauthentic, or you're overconfident was somehow, sometimes how it manifested. But I kept getting the same feedback that you, even though I was externally confident, people couldn't feel like they could actually connect with me, which is what I was really seeking. And so it's like I was using all these games and techniques and stuff, but then I would actually try to get to know a woman and she'd run away because my personality would change completely.

Or there was this like weird layer between. And so that's when I realized that, okay, this shit maybe doesn't work that well. And then I came across a guy who was really, really famous back of the day called Sasha Daygame. like he was he worked with some of the old school guys like mystery and and and things like that the r sd guys and things like that James Marshall TNL and I came across his videos and he was talking about like fuck all this nightclub stuff fuck all this indirect bullshit just go out during the day and talk to people and essentially his story is that he also had a fucked up childhood and then spent years of his life just out in the streets talking to people working on his social

anxiety and things like this and he was one of the first people to do like social free them work and things like that, like getting people out of their head, getting getting you to the point where you're not so scared so that approaches are easier. And so I followed his work for a while and I started doing that. And within a couple of months of doing it, it's like I had my first girlfriend, I followed her into a bank, which is a bit of funny, funny story. I got my first girlfriend. I also used it to busk, like I was a street performer for years.

And so instead of, instead of just sitting at the side of the street, I was walking up to people and introducing myself and going, hey, I'm a busker, you want to hear a song? So I made a lot of money and going out at nights out in Edinburgh doing that for years. And then over time, I started attending like seminars and things like that. I think the first one was in London in 2016, I want to say. And I became friends with Sasha. And he hired me as a personal assistant. And then I was the videographer.

And then I was assistant coach. And then I became their coach for all of Europe like six years ago now, I think. So I've been coaching full time for six years. but the fundamental premise of what I do is it's not about impressing people it's not about making people like you it's not about validating yourself it's not about having people validate to you

or like seduction or any of that shit the fundamental premise is most guys like if you're getting into this stuff the people that are naturally good with women aren't thinking about it they aren't talking about it it's just a normal part of their life so most people that start looking into these things are fundamentally fucked up in some way

they have insecurities self-worth issues these sorts of which is why the pickup stuff is so so popular because it allows you to find a way to give yourself a sense of confidence and give your sense of ability, give yourself a sense of ability, without actually having to fix the internal shit, which is really hard. But I start with fixing that stuff, like doing targeted mindset work and working on like limiting beliefs and self-confidence and all these sorts of things. And in realizing that there's two ways of attracting people, there is value, which is, you know, status, money, looks, like all of these sorts of things. And there are plans.

these things are naturally attractive to people, men and women. But if your primary means of trying to find connection is through value, you're going to end up meeting all the kinds of people that only really care about that. And these are the kinds of people that cheat on you. These are the kinds of people that leave you as soon as somebody else with more of those things come along, which is, I think where this like red pill idea of like hyperagamy, all women are like that, treat women like children, hold frame came from. Because of that, if you're using external means or like a fake personality,

in order to attract people, then yeah, of course they're going to end up leaving. Of course, these connections aren't going to be stable. And of course, you're going to be attracting the kind of people that fit into that. I prefer to look at it as a compatibility game. So who you are as a person, there's someone out there, there's lots of people out there that are naturally compatible with you. There's people that want the same things. There's people that have the same desires.

And you don't need to learn game or get to a point where you can seduce these people or make these people like you. You just need to get the fuck out of your own way. get rid of the social anxiety and the things that are blocking you from talking to people and then just go out and talk to as many people as possible and you will find people that are compatible with you so when you started it was it was about finding connection or just getting validation for yourself but then obviously you know you you get a girlfriend and you're still continuing to pursue this field and you're going to seminars and stuff like that so it does it become

less about trying to, you know, find connection or have people be attracted to you and more about just, okay, working on yourself, working on self-worth, discovering yourself, building confidence. I took a break from that world for a couple of years whilst I had that girlfriend. Like, I wasn't looking to date other people or things like this. But I was still, I was still trying to work on my social skills and like meeting certain people and things like this. And I was still going to the seminars because it wasn't just dating focused. Like there was other things like business and spirituality and health and all this sort of stuff. And I really, and this is something I realized as well.

And this is something I tell all of my clients. Like I market myself as a dating coach because as I say, that's what most men, that's how they get into self improvement. That's the main thing they're trying to fix. It's also my largest area of expertise. But fundamentally, I am a mindset and social coach. And I really, I really, there's that axiom that's like life is not about what you know. It's about who you know.

And I really fundamentally agree with that. I think the people that, are around you are the most important thing, not just for your own development in that you will start to mold yourself to the people that are around you, but all opportunities in life come from other people. The world is just your relationships with other people, that's it, and the value that you provide to other people. So if you can be the kind of person that's very good at networking, if you can be the kind

of person that can walk into our room and introduce yourself to everybody that you don't know, you end up with the kind of opportunities that you don't have. Like when I first moved, I lived in Bulgaria for like the past six years most of my time. And when I first moved there, I moved into this big, like a dormitory style large apartment. I had my own room, but there was like 14 people across like 10 rooms. And this guy invited me out to a pub quiz. And I'm thinking, oh, you know, I'm tired today. I don't really want to go.

But fuck it, let's see what happens. Let's go to this pub quiz. And being a sociable person, I introduced myself to everybody in that room when I was there and, you know, met a bunch of people that way. And I met this guy. I'm not going to say his name because there's a bit of a legal thing. behind that, but he turned out to be mob affiliated and I got investigated by the Bulgarian government, but that's another story. But he introduced me, he's like, come out for dinner with me and some of my friends. I'm like, okay. And through them, I met a lawyer that has been really, really helpful with

like paperwork and contracts and business stuff and like getting my residence and all that, like, thousands of dollars worth of free legal work just from having that person as a friend. And then she invited me to a New Year's Eve party where I met a couple of American guys that were into crypto. And they introduced me into a project in like 2019, 2020 that I put 300 euros in and it turned into like 100 grand. And it's like all of these things happened just from that one experience of going, I'm just going to go out and talk to people. Yeah. Do you think most of the struggles that men have with dating just comes down to social anxiety at the end of the day? Yes.

So social anxiety is normal. It's something that is natural. It's something that you should experience because it gives you boundaries. Right. Like we are, if you look at animals that don't have a sort of social system, they tend to be a bit sociopathic, the ones that are on their own, they don't have, they don't care about other animals, they're more aggressive, that sort of thing. But if you look at animals with the social hierarchy, they all have this sort of trust-based system, empathy-based system, that sort of thing. And I think where that comes from is that human beings, other human beings, are both the most important thing for your survival. because you need them to help take care of children and build houses and you know keep the fire going while you're out hunting or vice versa or whatever. But then at the same time they are also the most dangerous thing because they can rape and steal and kill and like really fuck you over. And so I think social, this is just a theory, but I think that social mechanisms developed as a means to to learn how to trust other people. Like if I if I understand your motivations for things, if I understand the way that you feel, if I understand your vulnerabilities, I can predict your behavior and I know that when we're out of

hunting together and you're not going to stick me with the fucking spear, right? I can learn to trust you. But because other people are so important for our survival and because we have this like collective group thing, if like social anxiety is natural, because if I fuck up and everybody doesn't like me, I'm going to get eaten by wolves, right? I'm not going to be able to survive on my own. So some amount of it is natural and healthy. But I think in the modern landscape, we've built this environment where we have like social media and where we're working in more isolated ways. Like we're not out in the fields together. So you're not forced to expose yourself to things.

You're sitting in an air-conditioned office, not really talking to people, or doing it through a computer. And so the natural healthy threshold has sort of slipped to the point where now a lot of people are like, oh, I'm scared to take a phone call or I can't tell the waitress that my burger is undercooked or like whatever the fuck it is. And so I think the biggest, yeah, the biggest roadblock for people is that social anxiety. But it goes a little bit deeper than that. Like, I think everybody is sort of traumatized in some way. And there's an argument to be made that, like, human beings are, as we evolved and we became upright, the gestation period lowered. And so everyone's born premature.

And so that causes, like, some traumas and things like this. But, yeah, when it comes to the social stuff, it's, a lot of it is self-worth stuff as well. Like, if you're, like, a lot of my clients and myself included, I was this way, and I still have some of these issues. It's like if going through puberty or if as a child you didn't receive enough love or enough affection, enough attention, enough validation from women, whatever it is, you do sort of internalize that as, oh, well, I guess I'm not good enough. And then the ego comes in and it defends that identity because if you think you're not good enough, it's much safer to hold that identity and to go, I'm not good enough. I'm not going to step out of my boundaries. I'm not going to, I'm not going to stir the pot. I'm just going to accept that I'm not good enough and take that place in life and feel bad rather than trying to push it because if I push it and people don't like that it's a threat to my survival.

Does the ego, would that be kind of correlated to like this excuse loop? Like I'm sure you probably have had clients in the past who are like, oh well, you know, Ben, it's easy for you. You're taller than me. You're more attractive. You're in better shape. You have, you know, full head of hair. You know, I'm too short or I'm too bald or I'm too skinny or I'm too over. overweight or I'm too ugly and they're saying all these things to justify why they can't approach that woman. Did the... Yeah, totally. I mean, so there's two parts to that. There's the excuses and the ego and then there's the do looks matter as much as people think, right? And I'll try and remind me if I forget the second one. But let's talk about the ego first. Like I concept, you know, I talk about the

ego in terms of coaching as just the voice in your head. It's the thing that thinks of it, thinks of itself as you. Like it's the story, it's the identity, it's all of this stuff, but it's also those thoughts that come up from your unconscious. And so there's two parts of your mind. There's the conscious mind, which is everything you are aware of in the moment, and then there's the unconscious. And the unconscious takes in and processes everything.

But it's the bit that stores like the long-term memories and the long-term identity and stuff like that. And so if you're the kind of person that has a fundamental belief somewhere that you're not good enough and then you see a pretty girl and you're like, I should go and talk to her, that voice is going to come up. and that programming is going to emerge, and it's going to create little ideas and little excuses like,

oh, no, she wouldn't like you, or you're going to be bothering her, or people are going to see you, and it's not going to go well, and things like this. And those excuses are, like, everybody, everybody has those, and it's not just social situations, it's everything. Anytime you try to do something that doesn't align with your current sense of identity, your sense of self, the thing that you think you are, that voice is going to come up and it's going to create excuses not to do it. So, you know, when you first start trying to work out,

that voice comes up and goes, oh, you don't need to go to the gym today. You're tired. It doesn't matter. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Or, like, you want to cook a healthy meal and you're a little bit tired. And it's like, you don't cook very often. Just order something on fucking delivery. It doesn't matter, you know.

But it's particularly insidious with the social stuff because it's such a massive fear for people. And the way that you get over that is that you have, like, this is a modified CBT concept, like cognitive behavioral therapy. I give it to clients as like the cycle of change, right? On the top is the mental aspect. And this is your belief systems. This is your ways of thinking. This is everything that goes on in the mental plane, both conscious and unconscious.

That controls the way that you behave. Because if it doesn't align with your identity, if it doesn't align with your belief systems, you're going to create excuses or fears or whatever it is to prevent you from taking certain actions. And the actions that you take get you certain results, which are both filtered by the way that you think, because you have a certain perspective on the world, but also create that new thing. And so what I do with coaching is I target both the mental aspect and I have like specific therapy techniques. And I'm not a therapist, first of all, I'm not a psychologist, not a therapist, but I use therapy techniques in coaching to target those things and like, you know, rewire and reframe the the identity, the way that someone thinks about themselves, both in like a logical sort of let's, let's apply this by sitting down and writing things and like thinking our way through it kind of way. but then also taking actions that will get results that conflict with those belief systems so that they dissolve.

Like if you believe, oh, if I go out and I try to high-five people, people are going to think I'm creepy and they're going to think I'm weird and it's all going blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you go out and do it and everybody's super enthusiastic and friendly and high-fiving you, that belief that people are scary starts to dissolve a little bit. Or if you go, I can't be loud and then you go out and you scream in the street and nobody gives a single shit because they're not thinking about you. They don't care, right? that, oh, I can't be loud, I can't take up space, starts to dissolve a little bit. By repeating this process of targeting both of those, eventually your personality and your sense of self and your identity and the behaviors that you take start to change, which gets you different results.

And I suppose, is that a tactic that you use instead of the high pressure, okay, go up to that girl who's attractive and get her number? Like, that's probably too big of a leap for someone who has ever approached a woman in her life and probably have this identity that they're not good looking and that they can't get a date or they can't get a number. Yeah, it depends.

So I usually say to clients, like the results will come before the mindset shift comes, right? Like I did a book camp in Bali and one in Seoul just before that. And both times, it's like the guys are taking action, they're getting phone numbers, they're talking to girls,

they're getting really enthusiastic responses. Like, oh my God, thank you so much for talking to me. Like, this is such a nice way to do this. I wish more men were doing this, like, all this sort of stuff and like getting phone numbers. going on dates, but they still feel like, oh, I'm not good enough and I can't do it, and that voice is still coming up.

And so I start with the mindset work first, but it takes weeks to months for that to actually take effect. Like still every day, every morning and every evening, I'm doing targeted mindset work on myself to try and change the way I think. And over years, it's like the way that you feel about yourself changes, but the fastest way to change things is to take actions. So it's just about getting to the point where you can take enough action to change the to change the results to change the belief system.

But what helps with that is the, is the quote unquote social freedom aspect. And so what I do in coaching, and this has become like a really popular thing. But the guy that I used to work for, that's Sasha guy. He was one of the first people to do this like social freedom stuff. And then it expanded it to the whole dating scene. Now every, every cunt's doing it, you know? And basically the idea is if you, if you challenge yourself, if you push yourself to do things that are more scary to you than just walking up and talking to someone,

then that becomes really easy and it gets you out of your head because some of the most common fears are like, I don't know what to say, I don't know what to do, I might say the wrong thing, I might do the wrong thing, I can't take up space,

I can't be seen by people, what if they reject me, etc. And so we do deliberately embarrassing stupid things in public that get you over all of these fears so that when it comes the time that, oh, that girl's really cute, I think I want to get to know her.

You're walking over and you're in your head less because a lot of those fears are sort of disintegrated a little bit. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Lads, do you also have any questions? I just wanted to touch on something outside of that.

But Rob or Jer, if you have any questions for Ben, let me know. We were also going to talk about the looks. Yes. Is there a case where, you know, let's say someone's not, someone didn't fall off the, you know, genetic tree and get all the appearances that would be. Fell out of the ugly tree and hit all the branches. Yeah. So, like, we, like, we obviously. have to be realistic and say it. It is obviously going to be harder for some people than other. Some

people will have to work more on personality and, you know, the internal, their self-worth and stuff like that. Like, how do you square that one with people who, you know, haven't had the feedback that they are attractive enough to be in a relationship? Yeah. I mean, people, people get angry at me a lot on Instagram and leave me like hateful comments and stuff because it's like, oh, you're just, you're saying this because you're handsome. And first of all, thank you. I didn't, I didn't used to believe I was good looking, but I'm getting a lot of positive comments, so that's nice. And they're like, oh, this wouldn't work on me, and I am the uncell, and I'm black pill, me, ma, ma, ma, ma.

It's like the, I have never once said that the way that you look doesn't matter, right? It does, and it matters. Like, if you're really good looking, the world does treat you differently. And you can say that's unfair, and maybe it is, right? But we, because we're so focused visually these days, like we have Instagram and dating apps and shit like this. A lot of guys experience that it's like, I do really shit on Tinder, right? I don't do well on Tinder at all. I guess I'm not good looking enough for Tinder. I don't know what the fuck that is, right? But I prefer to meet people out in the street anyway, so it doesn't matter.

But I have found that using apps and using Instagram and stuff, it kind of teaches guys that women care about the same things that we do, which is like men are primarily visually focused and in personality comes second. And I would say this is a masculine way of looking at the world and you get masculine women or emotionally immature women and stuff like that that look at the world that way as well and they just want a hot guy or a rich guy like there's every kind of person out there and they want every different kind of thing but if you're using Tinder or you're using Instagram and you're trying to meet girls that way of course they're just going to pick the most good looking guys because that that's that's what that platform is it's a it's a looks first based thing right

and and if you're like a super ugly guy or whatever and I've had objectively disgusting looking clients, right? It's a harsh thing to say, but it's an objective truth, right? I've had really ugly clients. I've had fat guys. I've had bald guys. I've had guys with missing teeth. I've had, like, guys with fucking lopsided faces and shit like this or dude with like horrible acne or whatever the fuck it is. And they all do just fine. They all do just fine. And they meet women that they think that by their standards are like super beautiful, like objectively as well. But it's like, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, I say that because it's a, like what one person finds attractive isn't necessarily what everybody else does. There's conventional attractiveness and

and there's people's types. And the way that I look at it and the way, you know, the way they actually is, is that for most women, looks come second to the way that you make them feel. Right. And there have been studies done on this that show that women will rate you as more physically attractive when they like your personality. And I've talked to hundreds of women about this as well. And I ask them, like, have you ever had an experience where you met a guy and you didn't like him at first and you thought he was ugly? But then you got to know him and then suddenly you found him hot.

And they're like, yeah, that's happened to me a dozen fucking. times, you know? It's like if you, yes, being good looking, like being fucking Prince charming, blonde hair, blue eyes, muscular, all of like perfect teeth, all that stuff, that is attractive. But you know what's more attractive than that? The confidence that comes from looking that way. Like if you're super handsome and you have a massive cock and you're really rich, you're going to be walking around going, I'm the fucking man. And that comes out in your energy and it changes the way that people treat you. And so the most important thing is not actually how you look, it's how you feel. And if you're like an ugly guy, but you're super self-confident

and self-loving and stuff, you will still have experiences where people judge you based on the looks-based thing, but it's, that's honestly a good thing because you're filtering out all of the people that are interested in that surface level shit. And again, I've had plenty of clients that are objectively unattractive that go and talk to girls and the girls are happy to sit and talk to them and give them the time of day and then they get to know them, and some of them are attracted to them because of that internal shit. Like most communication, is not verbal. It's not what you're saying. It's not what you're doing. It's not what you look like. The way that you feel comes out and you can't fake this. You can try and fake confidence and all that stuff.

But really, it's like if you don't feel good about yourself, it's coming out on an energy level, on a pheromonal level, on a body language level. And it changes how people treat you unconsciously. They're not even thinking about it. Like, I'm sure all of you guys and myself as well have had these two different experiences where it's like you're having a shit day, right? You don't feel so great. Maybe you got bad haircut, whatever the fuck it is. And you're walking around and no one's paying any fucking attention to you whatsoever. And you just feel like an ugly piece of shit. And then you have another day where it's like maybe you close a business deal.

Maybe you got a good haircut. Maybe you're dressed nicely. You just, you feel good that day. And people are checking you out. Like women are looking at you. You feel confident. People are being friendlier to you. And it's not because how you look has really changed that much.

It's because how you feel has changed. And that energy is projecting out into the world. And on an unconscious level, without even thinking about it, people are taking that and treating you in kind. Like, people will treat you on the whole as you expect and demand to be treated. It's that's really what it is. And so the main roadblock for a lot of these guys is not that they're physically unattractive. So that does, it does hold them back in some way. They don't have the same access to opportunity, right?

But the real thing is how they feel about themselves is repulsive. Like, nobody wants to date the fucking guy that's like complaining in, in, in, in, in the real thing. cell forums and going, oh, the Chad is getting all the Stacey's and all these foids don't like it. It's like they feel bad about themselves. And rather than taking the responsibility of fixing their internal issues and going, actually, I can just love myself and fuck what anybody else thinks. I love myself. I think I'm deserving of these things. And I am going to get them, right? And having almost a sense of entitlement, but in a entitlement's the wrong word. It's more of a deservedness sort of thing, a worthiness feeling, right? Because entitlement implies that you don't

actually deserve it. If you could embody that feeling, you will actually get those results. And yeah, maybe five out of ten people will judge you and they'll go, oh, you're not attractive and off you're too ugly for me, whatever. But if the other five don't care and you get to know some of them, and it's a numbers game for everybody anyway, it's like if you know for a fact that you can find someone that's going, that you find physically attractive that's going to love you for exactly who you are and not care how you look, do you care that most, you know, a certain percentage people are judging you? It's really just about getting over that and going, yeah, okay, life has given me a bum deal,

but I'm still going to get what I want, and you will, you will, right? But you have to get over that internal thing, because it's much easier. It's much easier to externalize blame. It's much easier to go, oh, the world doesn't love me enough, and I don't look good enough, and I'm just, you know, born to be alone forever than it is to take some personal responsibility and get over that stuff and admit that you're doing it to yourself and that a lot of the hatred that you feel towards yourself isn't coming from other people. it's coming from you.

And that's a really hard pill to swallow. Yeah, and I suppose a perfect example of that is the flip side of it, which I've actually seen on your content as well, where there's been like objectively really good-looking lads who have been struggling to... Oh, totally, yeah. Yeah, just because you're hot doesn't mean that you do well with girls either. Like, it's...

There is a correlation there, but it's like a lot of attractive men don't even know they're attractive because nobody's fucking telling them. Maybe their mum gave them a compliment, whatever. But it's like, women don't just go around making physical compliments about people, of the time. Like, if you're like an 11 out of 10 model GQ level looking fucking dude, yeah, but it's like, sometimes a girl will compliment me on my appearance. It's like, I don't,

I don't judge my own physical appearance that much. I think my main value is my personality. That's fine. I think I'm a slightly above average looking guy, right? But sometimes a woman will be like, oh, you're so handsome. And it takes me by surprise. And I'm like, oh, you know, that's a little bit uncomfortable. I'm not used to that compliment, you know? And there's so many, like, I have a story about this. I went to a college party. I didn't go to, college, but it was some friends of mine had a dormitory by the college. And they were, they were having a dorm party, like a house party. And there was this guy there. It was, it was me, one of my best friends, his female roommate, and then, and then like a bunch of people, their friends, you know,

friends of friends, mutual connections, etc. And, and his, and they knew that I was like getting into this dating stuff at this point. This was when I was like 1920. And the, his, his roommate, the girl comes up to me. And she's like, you see that guy over there? And I look into the corner and literally blonde hair, blue eye, this Prince Charming archetype, six-foot-three fucking muscular dude is standing in the corner. And she's like, oh, that guy's really hot, but like I kind of want to talk to him. What should I say? I don't know. And I look at the guy and it takes me three seconds to see what's going on, right? He's standing with his back to the wall, his arms like this, holding a beer surrounded by only his male friends, like back in

the corner, only talking to them with his head down. I'm like, that dude is not confident at all. He probably doesn't even realize that girls are checking him out. So I say to her, like, just go over and tell him you find him attractive and start talking to him and I promise you it will go well. And she's like, no, I can't do that. It's not going to like me. I promise you, it's going to go well. And right enough, she goes over. She talks to him. And 30 seconds later, she's leading him by the hand to her bedroom, you know, whatever. And then she comes back five minutes later. She's like, we got to get rid of this guy. Like, what you're talking about? He's like he's so fucking nervous. He's getting drunk too quickly. He has no idea what he's doing. Like, he's touching me in weird ways, blah, blah. And me and my friend had to kick the guy out.

Like, people would look at this guy and be like, oh, he has everything in life. It's like he wasn't confident. He wasn't confident. He had no fucking idea what he was doing. There is a correlation between looks and success with women, but it's not a hard role. You know, there's loads of guys that don't do well. Rob, do you have a question? Do you want to ask?

So it's kind of linked to what you've said already. And I did a psychology course like years ago. And one of the things it talked about with attraction, I think it was mainly physical attraction, was essentially ease of processing. So like to do with symmetry and less ambiguous features and things like that. In general, it's kind of based on what you've said about walking into a room, feeling confident and things like that. Would you say that if you present yourself as someone that's kind of easier to process and there's less risk involved, in trying, like, less question marks going off in your mind that you're more attractive to the opposite sex or the same sex depending on what you mean like physically or emotionally?

All of it. So like if you're walking into a room, you're attractive, but you're walking through the room with your head down, headphones in, like moving your hands around weirdly. Like someone, for me, I would look at that person and go, something's going on there. That's too much to process. I'm just going to look away. Whereas if someone walked to the room, like, head up, smiling, looking ready to engage, I'd go, there's not too much going on there that's a risk to engage with. Yeah. I mean, it's a body language thing.

But I think if you try to fake body language, it's going to come across as inauthentic and weird. Like, I've met a lot of guys that, yeah, I think fake it till you make it doesn't really work. But it does, like, it's more about embodying the thing that you want to. feel and tricking yourself into believing that it is true rather than because faking it, faking it is going, I am not this thing, but I'm going to pretend to be. Trying to embody that thing is going, I'm going to change the way that I actually feel so that I behave differently, you know? And there is, you know, that does work, like that, how you change your, like you are,

you are the story that you tell yourself, you are the actions that you repeat for long enough. It's like they become subconscious habitual behaviors and subconscious habitual patterns of thinking. And so you can brute force your way into that, but it's not. Because what I did for the first few years, practicing the pickup stuff, was like, I'm confident, I'm this, and I was acting that way without feeling it. And it is the feeling that is the most important thing. And so I would say, like, there's a bunch of things like body language cues and all this sort of stuff. And it's like, I think all of that is kind of bullshit. Because if you are thinking about it, then it's inauthentic.

Like, authenticity is the degree to which your internal state is aligned with your external state. It's the degree to which you are honest about the things that you are thinking. in the moment and feeling in the moment and all of that sort of stuff, through the verbalisation, through the behaviour, all this sort of thing. And the less that you are thinking about that, the better. Like if you, if you, if you're, if you're nervous, right, don't act like you're not nervous. If you're making an approach, let's say, and you're, you're stuttering over your words, you're fucking almost pissing yourself. You're visibly shaking. Don't act confident. Don't pretend that you're not. Because what will happen is you walk over and you're thinking, okay, you're thinking, okay, you're, you're, you're visibly shaking.

And you're thinking, okay, I got to mask all this shit because it's going to come across as creepy. And then you're acting in a way that you're not feeling. And in some, it's not even a conscious thing. And women are way better this than men. Some unconscious alarm bell is firing her in her mind, which then gets labeled as creepy or weird or fake or whatever it is. Whereas if you walk over and you are nervous and you go, hey, I'm really nervous. Like, I'm sure you could tell it. You're so fucking attractive that I'm really struggling to talk to you.

But I still have to come over and give you this genuine authentic compliment and see if you're interested in. talking to me and maybe going on a date later or whatever it is. That doesn't communicate weird. That doesn't communicate creepy. It communicates two things. First of all, the girl's thinking, okay, I am so attractive to this guy that he's visibly nervous and yet he's still coming over and talking to me. And that communicates, A, it's a huge compliment and B, that's courage, that's boldness.

Like, we have this idea from like Hollywood movies and all this bullshit that you have to be super slick and suave. It's like, but this is real life. life is messy and dirty and awkward and weird and it's like approaching people is often a nervous, awkward thing to do. You are putting people on the spot. Talking to people, it can be uncomfortable. You've got to get over the small talk layer and, you know, try and get deeper with people and all this sort of stuff. If you just call that out and you go, hey, I'm really nervous right now, it helps her understand why you're behaving that way and it gives a reason for it and it makes a

whole situation fine. It calms things down. They go, okay, it's just nervous. I'm nervous too because someone's coming and talking to me. Yeah, and you spoke about how it's a important to get vulnerability across as a man to the woman. And I suppose that's a great way of doing that because you want to get your personality across as quickly as possible. And vulnerability is a great way to do that. I guess that kind of answers my question as well in terms of if you're honest with how you're feeling internally and what you're thinking in that situation, they don't have to guess how you're feeling and what you're thinking. So yeah, it's a process and definitely sounds like how you're talking to people. It's like you want you want to do it.

with whatever energy. Like if you're super high energy that day, be super high energy, fucking energy, whatever, don't try and calm yourself down. If you're in a shit mood, whatever, you just go, hey, like, I'm in a shit mood, but I still have to do this. And people, people resonate with that because they see that you're, like, how you are feeling is important, obviously, how you're feeling affects things, but how you are presenting yourself in alignment with how you are feeling is the most important thing, because that's what community, that is what authenticity is. That's what makes people go, oh, this guy's honest, this guy's real. I can, I actually feel like I'm talking to a,

a person here and nothing fucking script or whatever it is. Like people think they have to be something else in order to validate themselves to people. That's just not true. Like the most important thing, the way that you actually connect with Google and talk about vulnerability, right? We talked about that a little bit earlier that if I understand how you think and feel about things and vice versa, then I can sort of predict your behavior in a way and I feel like I can like all human connection comes from shared emotional understanding and experience. And the more intense that is and the deeper level it is, the more you feel bonded to people and you want to keep spending time with them. And that's that trust mechanism. It's like if I understand

your motivations, it makes me want to spend more time with you because you're a safe person now. And so if you have that and you have compatibility with a person and, you know, let's say male female, male, like whatever, whatever you're into, if you're both attracted to each other on that level and there's physical, like the three things are chemistry, which is the physical component, it's the pharimonal components, it's the energy thing, it's the raw attraction. compatibility, which is the degree to which two things can work together without causing conflict, and in connection, which is that shared emotional understanding and experience. If you have these three things with someone, it's natural to want to spend more time with them,

to want to go on dates with them, to want to start a relationship. And the way that you can get on that level is by trying to, A, be more vulnerable yourself. So there's needy vulnerability, which is like, I have this problem and I'm all fucked up and I need you to fix me. And then there's healthy vulnerability, which is this is, this is. is a thing that I have inside me that manifests in my behavior and here's how it comes out, here's how I'm dealing with it. And by sharing those things with people and going, this is how I feel about things on a fundamental level. And these are my pain points and my weaknesses and all of that stuff. You make them feel safe to do the same thing with you. And that's really

how you connect with people quickly is by being super open about stuff. And vulnerability as well. Like a vulnerability implies that something can be used against you. If you're totally cool with who you are and all of your weaknesses and pain points and all that sort of stuff and you are open sharing them with people, then they can't be used against you. Because if someone comes along and it's like, ah, you've got a micropetus. And you're like, yeah, I do. That's not a vulnerability anymore. It's just a thing that you are sharing, you know? It's a, and that... The perfect analogy that is, I was sorry, just came to my head. I had to say, eight mile when Eminem has that rap battle at the end. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And he's shouting off like all of the things

that they're going to use to attack him. And then there's nothing left. There's nothing that they can use at that Yeah, but I think what happens is that people, like, I see this in Bulgaria all the time where I spend a lot of my summers. I see guys that are like 14, 15, right? And they have their first girlfriend. And they're huddled up like koala bears to this girl, like being super sukey and all this stuff. And it's like the girl's taking in the masculine role in that relationship. And then I look a few years later and they're all shaved heads, track suits, like strutting around like this, you know. And I had to think to myself, like, what's happening there? And I think what happens is a lot of societies have this. And I think what happens is a lot of societies have this. strange, imbalanced, masculine, feminine dynamic thing, where a guy grows up, and maybe like his father's like, don't cry, be a man, like all this sort of shit, or he correctly learns and assumes that vulnerability and emotion and empathy and connection and all these sorts of things are feminine qualities. They are, right? That's just the feminine part of masculine, feminine dynamics. Like all of that emotional shit is feminine. But it's also a healthy part of an

integrated masculine man. Like masculinity without balance is like domineering and control and violence and like all that stuff. If you balance it out with a bit of healthy femininity within the part within the individual, that then becomes like compassion and leadership and protective qualities and like teaching people and all of these sorts of things that are like very healthy embodied masculine qualities that are very important within society and in relationships and stuff. But I think the people on the whole are imbalanced. And so men are either, like they get the first. first girlfriend and then because they've bottled all this shit up and they've never learned how to express their emotions properly or integrate them properly, it's like you look at media,

the only healthy way to express your emotions as a man is through anger and violence and it's like that's a really unhealthy way of being like, boys don't cry, all of this sort of shit. And then they get their first girlfriend and all of that stuff starts coming out and pouring out because it feels safe around her because it's because it's like she carries this feminine energy into the relationship. And then what happens is it's coming out in a really unhealthy, imbalanced, needy, like feminine way. And then the girl leaves, of course, and in guys internalized, like, a lot of guys have had this experience with, like, their first girlfriend, second girlfriend, whatever. And rather than learning the lesson of, okay, I need to learn how to integrate this stuff properly and express it properly, it's, there is no room in the world for my emotions. And when a woman says she wants an emotional guy, she's lying, and women can't handle that.

And so they shut down even further. You know, it's not good. It's really unhealthy. Essentially, yeah. But then what's happening is there's women on the other side of that. that as well. Like there's a hell of a lot of emotionally immature, imbalanced women that are either in their, in their masculine, because the man is in a feminine state, or they are too far out the feminine side and they have no like rationality to balance out their emotions and they're just

completely fucking mentally unstable. And it's those kinds of girls that can't handle a guy being vulnerable and all this sort of stuff as well. But then what happens is you get all the guys on this side that are going, well, I just need to lock down and be a man and control frame and manipulate her emotions and like always stay on top of things and dominate. And of course they're going to attract the kind of girls that are completely emotionally all over the place and have no rational side to them and they're in balance. So it's like that's that that is compatibility. You want you ideally want to be somewhere in the middle, both people, where you have this like healthy fucking balance of things where both people are integrated. But if one person is too far on one side,

they're going to attract people that are too far on the other side. Have you, have you found out your work now that like in, in the modern kind of day and landscape and just social media in general that like because you have like all the extreme opinions, you know, get put to the front of people's phones and you have this kind of gender war between women and men. Do you find that even in your work in terms of, you know, young boys having perceived thoughts about the opposite sex? Yeah, I mean, people are going to, like I see a lot of that stuff, but not generally in my work, because people tend to be exposed. Like, algorithms feed you the kind of things

that you are already predisposed to or the kind of things that you are going to resonate with. Like, it's either... So the kind of people that come across my work, the kind of people to find me on Instagram or YouTube or whatever, are the kind of people that either completely agree with me already, in which case that's good, because it's filtering in good potential clients. Or it's people that completely disagree

and they leave, like, a couple of hateful comments and then fuck off. So it's like a... Yeah, yeah. Well, exactly. I don't care, whatever. It was really funny. I posted this one that was, it got just this like dichotomy of the kind of comments that I get. I posted this reel that was about, the message of it was it's not the thing that you are saying, it's how you're saying it, that is important. The example that I gave was there's a huge difference in just walking up to a stranger and going, hey, nice ass, you know, or walking up and saying, like, let's say it's a girl that's just come out at the gym.

She's very clearly like trying to show off her ass. She's put 100 hours into it. She's wearing yoga pants, et cetera. And you walk up and you go, I understand that this is a really forward thing to say. don't want to make you uncomfortable, but I've been staring at your ass as you walk up the street. Like, you look fantastic. How much do you squat? Like, how did you get an ass like that? You know? And it's like showing the difference there. And all of the comments, all of the comments are guys going, that's creepy, that's gay, like, you know, never, never comment on a woman's appearance,

like, all of the sort of stuff. A disproportionately high number of the likes compared to my viewership were women. And all of the positive comments were from women going like, you guys don't understand, like, this is a really good point. Like, yes, he's exactly right, you know. And I think what's happening there is they are, they are, there's two things. It's first of all, it's an ego thing. They can't imagine themselves being able to say that kind of thing and it coming across well, and so rather than going, okay, this is a possible thing, it's like, well, I can't do that. I'm too scared to do that. I can't imagine myself doing that in a healthy way, or I have two sexual intentions, like they're projecting, basically. So they're projecting their negative intention

onto me, or it's like a jealousy thing and they're going, well, I can't do that. They're you're a bad person for doing it and fuck you and you know I want to touch on two more things before we let you go and one is going to be a little bit on culture and looks maxing and the other is actually about gym culture and Dayton but Jared do you have any questions before I move on to them

I don't actually have any questions like we're talking about the clients you work with and stuff how people can come into a room they can be confident they have like no issues talking to the opposite sex or whatever sex they're interested in, but then self-worth can still be in the toilet.

You don't have to be super confident. You don't have to be in a great state. You really just need to stop, like, push past the negative thoughts. So if you're in a state where you're nervous and you have some self-worth issues and you're thinking this, maybe won't work, etc. It still will as long as you are taking action, right? But if you feel really negative about yourself,

it's going to prevent you from even taking those actions in the first place. And also on a whole, like, I've had clients that I call them like hard cases where, like confidence, right? Confidence comes from either faith that things will be fine regardless of how you behave. Like a situation will just be okay. Or competence in that you under, you have a knowledge that your own ability will carry you through a situation. That's where confidence comes from. And so clients, when they first come, usually they have to have a degree of faith in me. It's like, I've done this hundreds of fucking times.

I've made thousands of approach with myself. My clients have made thousands. Nothing ever goes bad. Things are going to be fine. You will get the things that you want if you follow the process. 100% of the time you will get the things that you want. And so they come in with a little bit of faith. And then they do some of the social freedom work, right?

Because they start. They're like, I don't know if this is going to work. You know, this is a scary thing for me. What if people reject me? They have all these fears. But by the time they're paying me for coaching, they're already open to the idea that it's going to work, first of all. So they're not like, this is never going to happen.

and this is the worst thing for me, et cetera. So they come in with some degree of faith, and then they walk up scared, but they're going, okay, I trust that things are going to be fine. And even though they're scared, even though they're nervous, they start to get good results. And then it's like a compounding effect from there where it gets easier, if that makes sense.

Like, the way that you feel about yourself and the expectations that you have about how things are going to go are obviously going to affect it because it comes out in your behavior. But being nervous and being being scared is not the same as being pessimistic, you know? Ben, I want to ask about, so look, looks maxing and social media. So obviously there's a lot of young men convinced that their parents determines their worth. And that's obviously a lot of what we've talked about.

And just for anyone that's listening, that doesn't know what looks maxing is. Like there's, it's this kind of extreme online advice where you're trying to become the best looking version of yourself. So there's like soft maxing, which is like better grooming, lower body fat, better skin routine, and fitness, all that stuff. And then there's like hard maxing that a lot of these streamers are doing, which is steroids, plastic surgery, even limb lengthening,

bone smashing to alter their facial structures. Why do you think young men are becoming so obsessed with extreme appearance optimization? Because we have created a culture that cares more about appearing datable than actually being datable. Like people think that looking good is what's the most important thing, because we have moved in that direction culturally,

like with social, you know, social media, phones, like all of the stuff is inherently visual, and so, of course, it's going to highlight those aspects more. And people are not going out and talking to people anymore. They're using dating apps. They're using Instagram, social media. And so the predominant, the focus there, the emphasis there is appearance. And so the people that look the best do the best. Probably, yeah, totally.

I mean, it's anything that pulls you away from actually talking to people and connecting with people creates social anxiety. It's an exposure thing. If you limit your exposure, your anxiety goes up. If you increase your exposure, your anxiety goes down. Because anxiety is a fault, like, there's a glib fucking statement. Like, fear is false evidence appearing real, right? So anxiety is a lack of, it comes from projecting onto scenarios without evidence, basically, and projecting negatively. Do you think that with the kind of social culture of looks maxing and of, you know, young boys who are, you know, falling into these,

this dating advice versus the dating advice that you're given, do you think that's going to be more problematic? because you can see in the research and I've gone through this, you know, there's a huge percentage of boys who have never had a girlfriend growing up, haven't talked to girls. I think from 18 to 30 in the states, the amount of men who haven't had sex before is it shot straight up from the 2010s and up. So do you think it's going to have a, it's continuing to have maybe a negative impact on, you know, people getting into relationships, having families, having kids, all that stuff? Yeah, I mean, of course. I'm a fundamentally optimistic person. So I think that everything swings like this. And it's like polarization. Things move in one direction, then they move in the other. And it's like you're starting to see younger generations are more clued into shit. And they're starting to realize the negative effects that these things are happening. It's like the fact that I can talk about these things openly on the internet and share my method of coaching. It's like there's a lot of people that disagree. There's a lot of people that agree as well. And I think that things are always better. than they appear. Like, the, the, the, the internet is going to highlight and magnify the most extreme examples of everything. And it's easy to look, like, things are better than they have ever been. There's, there's, I mean, maybe not in the past couple of years, but like, maybe before

that, there's less hunger, less war, less, like, all of these sorts of problems. It's like, you can look at things that are getting worse. You can look at things that are getting better. The world is inherently dualistic and both exist in equal measure. And it's about what you focus on the most. And so, yeah, I think things are moving, trending in a negative direction. But I don't think that's permanent. I don't think it's like everything's fucking cyclical.

It's going to come back around. I think the mentality that you need to have is to not worry about that shit. And just, just pick a problem. Like if everybody just picks a problem and tries to fix that thing, everything's going to be totally fine. Okay. Last question. The most important question, as a lot of us have experience in the fitness industry,

can you approach women in the gym? I don't know. Absolutely. Yeah? Yeah, of course. But there's a way of doing it. So, like, I mean, let's run through this. What is the fear?

What's, what's the thing? Well, I suppose, there's a lot of, there's a lot of trend and stuff even with the kind of, I don't know if you've seen Joey Swoll's Instagram page where it's like, you have, um, you have these women who record themselves in the gym and then like a man's walking past them. And they just look in their direction, even for a split second. And then now they're posted on TikTok, oh my God, look at this creep looking at me while I'm training.

But again, that's also just fucking. engagement bait and stuff as well. Like, have you ever seen that in an actual gym? I haven't. But of course, it's all over the internet because it gets engagement. Like, these women are doing that shit deliberately because they know it's going to farm likes and clicks and, you know, links to their fucking only fans

and shit, you know. So what is, like, if you're thinking, oh, I see a pretty girl in a gym, I want to go and talk to her, what's the fear that's going through your head? What are you thinking is going to go wrong? I got, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to, yeah, that's how this is going, yeah.

So I suppose the fair would be, oh, they're in a gym, they're trying to get their work done. It's a bad time to approach them. I don't want to look like a creep. I don't want to be rejected in public, etc., etc. Yeah, so there's a tool and I do this in pretty much every conversation I have and this is something I teach to all my clients as well. It's called a preframe, right? And you are essentially preemptively putting a frame around the conversation to call things out. And at first it's like this is like a technique that you use, whatever, but it becomes, it's just good communication. Like I don't just do this with approaches. I do this with my friends. I do this with business stuff like with everything. You essentially just want to call out all of the things that might cause a problem or be misinterpreted. So if you're saying, oh, I don't want to disturb a workout. I don't want to seem like a creep. You know, I'm here in this gym all the time, so it's like a weird environment. Say those things. Like, if you just walk up to this person, you go,

hey, I'm sorry to interrupt your workout. I really don't want to be a creepy guy. I understand you see me in the gym all the time. So if you reject me, I'll just go back to being gym guy. I won't make things weird for you. But I just have to say it, and give them a genuine, authentic fucking compliment, and gauge their interest.

Ask if they're single. Ask if they have a boyfriend. If they say no to you, you go, great, no worries. enjoy the rest of your workout. Like, I'm over there if you need anything, whatever, right? You fuck off. What you have communicated to that person is, I understand the implications of my actions. I understand that I'm putting you in an uncomfortable position. I understand all of the shit that might go wrong. And so even if they reject you at that point, they feel safe around you. Like, I have a buddy, Anton. He's a former client of mine. He's now my cameraman for a lot of stuff. He approached every single attractive girl in my gym. And one or two of them went on a date, and most of them rejected them.

is reasonably a big gym, lots of people going through. When he comes and visits me and walks into my gym, three or four girls will park up and go, hi, Anton, right? Because they see him as flirty, safe guy that was honest with them and stated his intentions and wasn't creepy. Like, what's creepy is finding an angle in four mirrors

to stare directly into their arsehole and just like sit in the corner and not say anything or to walk up and try and be super macho and just like, just be honest. If you have things that you are concerned about that might go wrong, say, hey, I'm concerned that this is going to come across badly and go wrong. And by doing that, you make it all okay.

It's the same with the nervous thing. If you're nervous, tell them that you're nervous. Let's say you see two people they're having lunch or whatever. You walk over, you go, hey, I'm sorry for interrupting your lunch, but I have to do this. And just by doing that, you make them feel safe because you're showing, I understand the situation that I'm putting you in. I understand the sort of externalities of this and the things that might make things complicated. And by calling out and showing you that I understand that so that you feel safe.

Ben, where can people go if they want to reach out and work with you or just follow up on your work? So I am at The Real Ben Campbell, C-A-M-P-B-E-L-L on Instagram. That's basically where I'm posting everything in the moment. All right, brilliant. We'll keep everything in the show notes and links to your Instagram where they can contact you. Thank you very much for today. I really appreciate it.