The Uneducated PT Podcast - Ep.64 - Sean Corcoran Ex Divorce Attorney Turned Pro Life Speaker

Episode Date: February 26, 2025

In this episode, we sit down with Sean Corcoran, a multifaceted individual whose life seamlessly blends faith, family, and advocacy. As a devout Catholic, dedicated husband and father of five. Sean's personal journey offers a profound perspective on the sanctity of life. Professionally, Sean serves as the CEO of National Men for Life, an organization committed to engaging men in the pro-life movement. His work emphasizes the pivotal role men play in supporting life-affirming choices and fostering a culture that values every human being.Beyond his organizational leadership, Sean is an attorney and a compelling pro-life speaker. He shares his experiences and insights on platforms like Instagram, where he addresses topics ranging from the emotional impact of abortion on families to the importance of compassionate advocacy.Join us as we explore Sean's inspiring story, delving into how his faith, family experiences, and professional endeavors intertwine to fuel his unwavering commitment to the pro-life cause. Sean's InstagramSean's Substack

Hello and welcome to the uneducated PT podcast with me, your host, Carlo Rourke. The goal of this podcast is to bring on interesting and knowledgeable people from all walks of life, learn a little something from each conversation and for you, the listener, just learn something from each episode. So don't forget to subscribe to the channel, press the box below, show some support and I'll see you on the next episode. Okay, welcome back to the uneducated PT podcast. I have a very interesting guest today,

someone who I followed off the back of a video talking about the born-alive abortion Survivors Protection Act, which is a topic that I've found myself really interested in at the moment. So I want to get Sean's perspective and talk a little bit about the work that he does, alongside numerous different topics. I want to touch on fatherhood with you, homelessness, addiction, men struggling in today's society, Christianity. And a topic that I'm really interested at the moment right now, which you probably know, Sean, is relationships. So if you don't mind, we'll go back and forth between kind of different.

different timelines, which will make sense for the listeners shortly. But can we start off just talking a little bit about your 10-year career as a divorce attorney? You said something that I thought was quite funny, was divorce-proof your future wife. What does that mean? So I think what it should have said, if it didn't, then I need to go back and fix it, was divorce-proof your future marriage. Yes. So I did a presentation for a group of Catholic singles.

It's called the Catholic Singles networking newsletter. Catholic Singles newsletter. She's going to kill me if she sees this. It's a Catholic Singles newsletter. And they put out monthly speakers. And over the whole month of February, they had a variety of topics, kind of in honor of Valentine's. And so the topic that we chose was divorce-proofing your future marriage.

And, you know, and I started out by telling them just quite frankly that that's kind of a clickbaity title, right? Because it sounds really good from a marketing perspective and it's going to bring people in. But the reality is that we can't divorce proof our future marriage. We can set ourselves up for the best possible, most successful marriage that we can have. And what I learned as a divorce attorney was that, you know, there's just a pattern of things that brought people into my office. There's always the outlier, right? There's always the, let's say, 15 to 25% of people who have come in because of things outside of their control. You know, because their spouse is cheating on them because, you know, their spouse is doing drugs because whatever it may be, there's things outside of our control.

But the majority of people that came into my office came in, no matter what they said the issues were, what we found was that the issue was a lack of communication. You know, everybody says that money is the number one driver of divorce. And I would disagree. And I think most divorce attorneys would disagree with that. I think the number one driver of divorce is a lack of communication. I think that when people get married, they get comfortable. in their relationship, they know the person's not going anywhere, they stop paying as much attention, they start focusing on other things.

They may start focusing on career with entirely good motives that I'm going to provide for my family, I'm going to work and work and work and work and work. But it takes more than money to have a successful marriage and have a successful family. And so we end up with a lack of communication. and then other people may rely on their children for emotional support, you know, or put their children above their spouse. And I think that's really dangerous. I think that, you know, there is a hierarchy that works for successful marriages.

And I'm sure anyone who does not have faith in God is going to challenge this, and I'm okay with that challenge. But that hierarchy is, you're really. relationship with God, your relationship with your spouse, your relationship with your kids. Everything else comes next. You start putting your kids above your spouse, then you're really getting in the way of that covenant that you made when you got married. And so I don't want to go too long because I don't know if that raises any questions,

but basically what I was sharing with the audience was things that I had learned as a divorce attorney that they could avoid and how they could avoid them. You know, and the main things that I kind of went into were when you're single, you have this amazing opportunity because you have all this time and you have all this freedom. And you can use that time and freedom to really create the person that you are meant to be. And in doing that, you know, I hit on one of my mentors. Baderes Cooley and has has these five F bombs, faith, fitness, finance, family, and fun. I think it just has four, but I like to add fun because it's important.

So I kind of hit on faith, you know, in just getting yourself in the relationship that you really want with God and making sure that you are living that you are living those values so that when you encounter the person that you are created to spend, the rest of your life with, they see that in you, you know, and you see that in them. And then it's not a negotiable once you get married. You know, and fitness, I know that that's kind of your arena. Fitness is so much more important than being big and jacked and strong, right? It's more important than trying to live in a way or trying to create a way. or trying to create a body or an image that social media tells you everyone has when we know

that's not true. You know, being healthy looks way different on everyone. And so, you know, you've got mental fitness, spiritual fitness, physical fitness, and they're all really tied into each other, but physical fitness is super important to your mental fitness and your spiritual fitness. And so finding the thing that you enjoy in exercising or, you know, I mean, I don't know if yoga is considered exercising, but my wife loves yoga and that's important. You know, she gets what she needs out of that.

I wouldn't get what I, I'd get hospitalized for lack of flexibility. You're a big boy now. I am. I don't know. I don't know that I can stretch. I'm not as bendy as most of the people. So faith, fitness, finances, you know, you can't really go into a relationship with your finances all out of order, not having goals on what you intend to do financially over the course of your life and expect to walk into a relationship with someone who may also be in that situation and come together. you know, and turn two dysfunctions into a functional financial relationship, you know.

And we really have to talk about finances too. You know, all of it's important to talk about with somebody that we're going into a relationship with. Do you think that's a mistake that people make when going into a marriage that, like, one of the biggest things that they don't talk about is finances? 100%. And I think that's why people will go to their divorce attorney and they'll say it's about money. and it's not about money. It's a lack of communication about money.

It's a lack of communication about financial goals or goals that require money, you know, because, and let's just use traditional gender roles here, but let's say the man is assuming without ever speaking about it that what's important to his wife, what's most important to his wife, is having the nice car, having the nice house, having, you know, going to nice places. And what's really important to his wife is having him home. And so without having that communication, and look, and that goes both ways.

I understand that in, I mean, my wife's a dentist. So, you know, we know lots of couples who the wife makes more money than the husband. And so, you know, it's not a gender thing. It's just an example that I was using. I hate that I have to qualify that, but we know that when you put things out on social media, that you got to kind of get around what people are going to immediate attack. Social media is not one for nuance.

Right. That's right. So you touched on communication. Is there any, is there any? Because I was going to ask you, like, what would you say are the top three reasons that you see couples? divorce and is there anything else that you see that becomes a big factor in in in people getting divorced i really think that's that communication is the overarching thing yeah everything falls like of communication about what you want um you know my wife and i joke and we have a great

relationship but i don't know if you've ever seen the movie frozen yes yeah yep okay um so in the movie frozen and i have a bunch of little kids i've got five six six kids right or five i have five i lost my first son to abortion um 27 years ago but uh but i have five living kids they are um five six six nine and ten so we've seen lots of cartoon movies and so um over and over and over and over and so there's a scene in the beginning of the movie frozen where um where the the main character's sister like meets this guy and they're singing the song about how how perfect they are for each other. And at one point, they say,

I love that we can finish each other's. And you expect the other person to say sentences and they say sandwiches. Because they're not thinking the same thing. In that case, they were both thinking sandwiches, which is really weird. But my wife and I always joke because she'll start saying something

or I'll start saying something and then we'll try to finish the sentence and we'll get it wrong. And so, you know, we say, we love that we can finish each other's sandwiches. because if you don't tell somebody what you need, if you don't tell somebody what's important to you, if you're not communicating what you're thinking, we can't read minds. You know, we can't read minds. And so I think that that's important. I think the other side of communication is

setting aside our ego that we come into it. You know, everybody's got an ego. And setting aside that ego for the benefit of a happy marriage. I had my wife and I had a couple's counselor before we ever even got engaged. And the counselor was great and he said something that I've shared with every divorce client I ever had and people after that, which is do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? And that's something that, you know, is hard. Yeah.

Because of course we want to be happy, but we also don't want to be wrong. Right. You know, more than we want to be right. We don't want to be wrong. And that really comes from the fact that every single person comes from some sort of dysfunctional family. You know, what that dysfunction is looks different on everyone. But, you know, there's nobody's life was absolutely perfect growing up. And sometimes it takes some time to actually look back.

can think about it to realize that. But if you take two people coming from two different dysfunctional families and put them together and expect, just like the financial situation, if you expect them to come in and be like, hey, now we're perfect. We're going to be completely not dysfunctional. It just doesn't work unless you work at it. And so one of the hardest things, but one of the most important things I think that can really.

help you to have a successful marriage is keeping that in mind and not just in marriage but in life you know do you want to be happy or do you want to be right or do you want to be happy because there's plenty of other places online that you can get the information that shows the the the the drawback to to letting that fester that that that that resentment about not being right or or or them not understanding how right you are. So I don't need to get into all that. I'm not that expert, but it's there for people who are interested.

It's just, it just is. You know, it just is that we're in a much better position if we choose happiness. Most of the arguments aren't that important. Do you have any practical advice for people in relationships who want to make it work might be struggling?

in and at the moment and want to become better at communicating with each other but are finding it difficult absolutely i think um i think find a counselor find a couple's counselor find someone even if they're not a licensed in the backtrack you find a counselor they should be licensed but you know maybe it's a pastor maybe it's a priest maybe it's um you know a trusted friend um but somebody who can help to mediate and from an objective standpoint and just kind of point out the the impermanence of the situations that you're struggling with the and the importance of moving through them because you know that is the number one reason that people get a divorce attorney not I mean And what I mean is the whole purpose of a divorce attorney is to have someone who is not emotionally attached to the situation.

So they can look at it objectively and help you to make the right decisions moving forward. And so I always suggested to my clients when they came in before they even hired me that they seek couples counseling because I think staying married is better than getting divorced. for 90% of people. You know, there are abusive situations. There are situations that people have to get out of. And I'm not saying that that doesn't exist. And, you know, and I would support someone removing themselves from an abusive situation. But 90% of the people that I encountered, I think, could have worked through the situations

if it was important to both of them. And I think that divorce sucks. Like divorce is hard. It is the most spiritually, financially, emotionally, draining experience that anyone can encounter. And so I highly recommend counseling. I think everybody could benefit from somebody objective to talk to and just kind of vent to and get stuff out.

Who can look at the situation and say, you know, you're right. What you're saying is right. Or maybe you can look at it from this perspective, you know, and kind of help you to work it up. Have you ever seen a couple who were on the brink of divorce and they turned things around? Yes. Yes.

Multiple times. Okay. And I always encouraged it. Yeah. You know, that made me feel like I did my job more successfully than any divorce that was finalized. what was the reasons for going down this career pat as a divorce attorney

so when I was seven I must have been arguing with one of my aunts and she said you should you should be a lawyer so at seven years old I decided I was going to be a lawyer and from the time I was seven until just forever my dad was very clear that he was not paying for me to go to law school because he had an ideological opinion on lawyers and it was negative. And so, and he didn't. And so, you know, I chose then,

he kind of talked me in to go into medical school and I decided I was going to brain surgeon. And that was when I was like 12. And so that was kind of the path I was on and then not to get into too much of the other parts of the story yet, but that was the path I was on. And then, you know, my path took a different turn. And when I, when I got back in line and back on the right path, I, um, I just decided to take a stab at it and see, see if I was going to be able to do it. Do you think, sorry to interrupt you, do you think that them 10 years as a divorce attorney, do you think that has, you know, really helped in terms of your relationship with your wife?

Absolutely. And look, not to discredit anybody's feelings about how important the arguments they're having are. Yeah. But watching. watching people fight over things that were not my things. So from my standpoint, I can step back and look at it and say, this is not really this important. I want to make sure that I don't ever, you know, get to this point with Michelle.

You know, I want to, I want to make sure that I'm not putting so much emphasis on whatever I saw at the time as just a, a silly argument that escalated to just horrible results, you know. So I learned a lot about the marriages I didn't want to have by practicing divorce law. You also had a really nice post-up that I went through and it was like, dads, don't forget to date your wife. Yeah. I think that's super important. You know, and that goes back to that priority. of relationships, you know, putting your wife before your kids because if you don't, one day the kids will be gone. If you make it, if you don't put your wife before your kids and you make it until the kids are gone, they're gone. And then you've missed that, you know, maybe 18 years

of relationship that could have just been building and building and building to something really great. And so, and it gets hard. You know, it really, with five little kids and in school and all of them in jihitsu and cheerleading and, you know, just running all over the place and school activities and all the other things, it's exhausting. A question I'd like to just ask on the back of that because there will be. people listening and you know they'll be in marriages right now where it's like they'll be saying okay that's great but where do I find the time and I think it's a great example you saying this because as someone who has five children so how do you create with all these school runs and jujitsu practice

and you know where do you find the time and obviously you're running your own business you're a public speaker all these things you're doing podcasts so trying to find that time it's probably difficult, but it's definitely not impossible. It's calendared. Yeah. We have a shared, my wife and I have a shared calendar and our date nights are calendared. And if something comes up where we have to, you know, I have to be out of town or I have

a meeting or she has a meeting because she has her own business as well. Then we move it on the calendar. But it's every week. You know, and in that post that I made, we were. on vacation. And so there really wasn't any getting away to go out because nobody, nobody wants to babysit five kids. And so we weren't going to get a date night while we were on vacation, but we just woke up before everybody else and walked out to the beach, you know, and for 30 minutes, we just had time together to talk. And sometimes that's all you get.

and it's worth it because what's really important is the consistency, you know, and it shows your partner, it shows your spouse that they are a priority. And, you know, and to your question of where do you find the time, we have the time. It's not about the time. It's about what we choose to do with the time. And so we make time for the thing. that are a priority and sometimes we lose sight of the things that are really important while we're prioritizing other things. You know, here in the United States, you know,

we have football and baseball, right, in basketball, that people will spend entire Saturdays and Sundays like just glued to the television. Chearing for for teams of people that don't know they exist and never will and just investing all their energy and time in that rather than than schedule, you know, and say, hey, let's let's go for a walk. Well, I can't go for a walk because the jets are playing,

you know, and it's just really important. Or I can't go for a walk because, or I can't go out to eat tonight because there's a basketball game on. And I just think that's just one example because people find all kinds of things. And so if we, you know, I live in Southwest Louisiana. South of West Louisiana is considered the sportsman's paradise. And so tons of hunting and fishing.

And people will go all day hunting and fishing every Saturday and Sunday. And that's, that's okay. But if you're going to go hunting and fishing all day, Saturday, and Sunday and tell me you don't have time for a date night with your wife, then you're lying to yourself. Because you have the time, you're choosing to use that time for something else. And that really goes for everything, not just date nights. It goes for, I can't, I can't find the time to go work out. You know, I can't find the time to meal prep. I can't find the time to, you know, to read.

or to learn, you know, whatever is important, we have the time. You know, the same amount of time as everybody else and other people are doing it. So to suggest that we don't have the time just isn't a real thing. When you're speaking there even about that, I was just thinking on my head of that kind of analogy of it's like, instead of trying to wait until you're totally out of shape when you've like neglected your health for years, it's easier to just try and stay in shape by, you know, even doing 30 minutes three times a week. And it's like the same way, the analogy of a relationship. Instead of waiting till your marriage is on the floor and you're in with a divorce attorney,

you know, it's probably a lot easier to just make that 30 minutes a week and do something as small as just going for a walk or a little small date night. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's because small things add up over, they compound over time to really make the difference in whatever your pursuit is. That's right. Yeah. That's right. I think that, you know, being intentional about our time is probably the most, the greatest gift we can give to ourselves and to anyone else.

You know, just being, I mean, like our, our calendars are incredibly detailed. Everything goes on our calendars. and it has to because we got so many moving pieces. But even if I would say that if I could go back and tell my younger self to do the same thing, even before I had all of the moving pieces and all the obligations, I wish that I could do that. Like that's probably, there's not many things I would go back in my life and change, but I think that's such a great habit that that is a piece.

piece of advice I would give to my younger self. One thing that I wanted to ask you about, have you had cases where, you know, you've had really like smooth divorces versus really bitter and toxic ones? And what would be the key differences between the ones that kind of go smoothly or go well versus the ones that don't? I have. I've had people who have come in and said,

we want to hire you together. and just to kind of do the legality of it. That's not, at least in Louisiana, that's not legal or ethical. I can only represent one person because they have different rights and obligations. But what I would do in that case is I would just tell them I'm only representing one of you. And in the event that this goes sideways and you guys start having a disagreement, I'm advising the other person that at that point they should hire an attorney. But, and I'd make them sign off on that.

But there were several times when people came in and it's communication. You know, in those instances, they had communicated about what they wanted. They both agreed that what they wanted was not to be married anymore, but it wasn't out of anger. It wasn't out of frustration. It wasn't, you know, a situation where one of them hated the other one. and I wish I had asked and I didn't ever, I wish I would have asked why they were getting a divorce if they were able to have those conversations. But honestly, when those situations arose, I was grateful for the opportunity to help people who didn't want to fight. You know, and those

were my favorite. If I went back into it, I would go into it as a, divorce mediator, which would basically mean I didn't represent either of them, but I provided them both with what their legal rights and obligations were and with what my experience told me was likely to happen if they went to court and then let them make their own decisions, and then just write it all up and process it through the courts so that they could have the legal determinations they needed. that's um i just i found that there wasn't enough of that to build a business off of it you obviously then after 10 years decided to retire from that that career um i think i think i read that the reasons were that you wanted to be more present at home with your wife is that correct

that's right with my wife and kids okay um yeah could you talk a little bit about that yes so the it's a little more than that you know the the divorce was the divorcing the fighting i should say was not just spiritually and emotionally draining on on the clients it was spiritually and emotionally draining on me um you know just to be completely frank i would suggest that the majority of conflict in divorce is attorney driven. Attorneys know that if they create a conflict, then they create billable work. And the more hours they bill, the more money the attorneys make. The previous generation of attorneys, of divorce attorneys here, where I live, had built their careers on that. You know, it was very, very adversarial.

the generation of attorneys that I'm in, we would go to dinner together. We would, you know, even if we were on the other sides of cases, like we were friends. Like our kids knew each other. And we would associate outside of it. There was no animosity personally because we weren't just fighting to fight. And so there are several attorneys here who, there are several times when I would get a letter or an email from an opposing attorney. that said just horrible things about my client.

And, you know, and I had an obligation to share them. And the first inclination of the client where you want to be right is to fight back, you know, and so if we're both fighting back, then I'm making tons of money. But what's really important is, what does this impact anything in the case? Does this impact anything in your life? You know, does the fact that he said, you know, that you, I don't know, spend too much money at Target, you know, I'm trying, I don't want to come up with something too extreme. But does that really have any impact on the outcome that you're trying to get? Because if not, I'm not responding because it's just a waste of your money.

It's a waste of my time. And it's going to create this perpetual cycle of back and forth that, drives money for attorneys. And then these attorneys who do this, like once the money's gone, they fold. You know, they come in and they're like,

okay, we're going to agree to this, this, this, this, this, this. And so you spent two years arguing about things that didn't matter and spending

all the money you need to survive and they could go to your kids, getting a divorce just to prove you right. And so that was very taxing. And, and, And so it was probably four years before I actually stepped back that we started having, my wife and I started having conversations about how I just didn't feel like it was something that I,

that I was being called to do anymore. And it was, it was too much. It was bringing stress home every day and leaving in the morning with stress. And, you know, and I wasn't able to be home as much as I wanted to with my kids. life and so um so we kind of started the exit plan in 2017 and it just took it just took four years and a lot of a lot of additional circumstances to to allow that opportunity makes sense and you know that's just that kind of goes full circle to what you even said at the start about relationships is like do you want to be right or do you want to be happy and then you know spending two years with

divorce attorneys trying to prove that you're right just to in the end probably be drained and miserable and zapped of energy yeah I mean I hate it I was a very good attorney I was I was not great at building the business of attorney because I hated sending these giant you know thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars of bills for for for stuff that that I knew people were going to struggle to pay and it was going to really negatively impacted them. And it's just over stuff that's not necessary. I don't know. I just, that's not how I want to, to build my legacy.

You know, I don't want to, I don't want to pay for everything on the backs of other people's vulnerabilities. ladies. Well, I suppose that will transition nicely into what you're actually doing now at the moment and obviously something that really does kind of fill up your cup and something that, you know, you can tell, I could tell even by I was reading your substack and I was watching your videos and, you know, something that you're massively, massively passionate about. So could you tell me a little bit more about, like, being a pro-life speaker and the experiences that basically led you up to this moment.

Yeah, do you want me to start with the experiences first? Yeah, yeah. You could even take us back to, obviously, the video that I listened to you speak about even from, you know, going from being homeless and addicted and how you got to that point in your life. Yeah. So when I was 19 years old, I was away at college and I was dating a girl and she came to my dorm room and she said, I need to talk to you.

and she came in and she let me know that she was pregnant. And so my mind went to, you know, all the ways that I needed to change my life so that I could make this work, right? Like, how is this going to affect us in the sense that, like, how is this going to change things and what do I need to do to make this a successful part of our lives? And while I don't recall, it must have been verbalizing all the things. these thoughts because she stopped me and she said, well, I'm not, I'm not going to have the baby. I'm going to have an abortion. And honestly, that's not something that was even in my mind.

It didn't even register. It wasn't something that I had contemplated at all. I knew what abortion was, but, you know, I didn't really know that it was a thing, you know, that people did in these situations. And so, you know, I let her know. that I was not okay with that, that we were not going to have an divorce and we were going to have a baby and that it was going to work and everything was going to be okay. And, you know, and that I just kind of got shut down. And, you know, and we had some back and forth.

And my dad drove into town. Her mom flew into town and, you know, and they talked. And my parents even offered to adopt the baby. And, you know, we just were, we weren't successful. Men do not have rights. Men do not have the ability to step in. And so I was basically, you know, through that,

I was stripped of my masculine obligation to protect my child. And the impact that that had on me was that I sat down in that chair and I just kind of stayed there, you know, for the rest of the semester. I didn't go to class. I had a roommate who brought me food, and I failed out of college. Then I moved home and started school here, and I failed out of college two more times.

So I failed out of two colleges, three times. And by that point, by the third time I failed out of school, I had started partying pretty heavily. I was using alcohol, women started using drugs. You know, it started with cocaine. Then I got into ecstasy and then into methamphetamine, you know, and just to put it in perspective. I mean, I was, I mean, this was a daily thing. And, I mean, I was using ecstasy. five, six, seven tabs a night every Thursday, every Friday, every Saturday night.

And then when I wasn't doing that, I was on whatever speed I could get. And then, of course, that comes with, you know, how do you go to sleep and using other things to put me to sleep and then using other things to just, you know, see if I can feel different. So that went for about seven years, you know, and it really culminated in a seven-year methamphetamine addiction that led to me being homeless, unemployed, lying on a dirty hotel room floor, overdosing, and just praying that God would let me live, not because I wanted to live and not because I didn't want to die. I wasn't really scared of either one of those, but I didn't want for my parents who I destroyed that relationship. I destroyed every relationship. And I didn't

want my parents to be embarrassed one more time by me being found dead of an overdose on a hotel room floor. And so that's what I was praying for. You know, just let me live so I don't do that to my parents. And also I was waiting for the police to arrive because I had stolen from my previous employer and they let me know, you know, stay in that hotel room because the police are coming. And so then I passed out. And I woke up. I didn't die. And I didn't want to be arrested.

And I didn't want to keep doing what I've been doing. And God really led me. You know, I went outside to my truck where I had been basically living out of for the past several years. And so I had everything that I owned in the back of this, in the back of the cab of this little pickup truck. and I just shoved my hand down behind the driver's seat without even looking pulled out a pamphlet for a treatment center that I'd had back there for at least two years. And I went and called them and I told them, or they said I could come that day. And so I was able to get my dad on the phone, tell him what I was doing.

And, you know, even though he had cut me off, even though he had stopped talking to me, even though he had told me not to come back to his house. You know, it was all out of love, right? That was the best thing he could have ever done for me. It was cutting me off. And so he came and filled my car up with gas or my truck up with gas. And so I drove this little truck that hadn't had an oil change or maintenance for at least five years through a national forest, just kind of praying, hey, like, I don't want to break down in the middle of the forest. This is way before cell phones had the coverage they have now.

So I would have just stuck on the side of the road in the forest with no traffic. And I got through the forest and I started hitting hills in North Louisiana. And my truck started shaking. And I was just praying that I could make it to the parking lot. And then I made it to the parking lot of the treatment center. And when I pulled in the parking lot, my truck broke down. And so if that's not a sign that I was where I was supposed to be, like there's no sign. And so as many times I've told that story, I get goosebumps every single time.

And so I pushed the truck into a spot and I went inside and I said, hey, I need to call my dad and tell him here. And the lady said, well, your dad's already called. He's got all the information. He'll be here this weekend. And, you know, you're good to go. And that, like that right there is the, the, the, biggest example of unconditional love of a father that that I could have ever experienced. You know, I think that there were, there are three core memories that I have about my dad

as it relates to fatherhood. The first is the last time he spanked me, which was when I was like 10, you know, and I think, I don't know, it was just this weird thing where I don't think I did anything wrong and I think he didn't think I did anything wrong and and like, you know, it was just, it was this weird disconnect and I realized that this, this didn't make sense. And he, I think must have realized that too because it never happened again. And we weren't like smacked a lot, but like that was the last time. And then the second core memory would be when he kicked me out. when he stood up for himself and his wife, my mom, and my siblings, and said, you're not welcome here because, you know, you're going to steal from us.

You're going to lie to us. You're going to manipulate us. You're going to blame us. You know, you're going to throw these crazy emotional tantrums. All the things that addicts do. And so, and then when he was there, you know, when when I was led to make the right decision, you know.

Like he never stepped away. He just stepped back. And so, um, so I'm grateful for all of those, you know, I mean, I had a dysfunctional,

a dysfunctional childhood just like everybody else, but I had a great childhood and a great life and I have a great family and they're all super supportive. So, so in treatment, um, you know, the counselors kind of walk through a biographical history.

Like, you know, let's walk through your life and figure out, you know, how we got to where we are today. And when we got to the abortion, they stopped. And they were like, hey, I think we should really focus on those. And honestly, during that seven-year period, I didn't think about it at all, like, actively. I was told when I was 19, I didn't have a voice. I was told that I didn't have any rights. I was basically told that my feelings about it were not valid.

And so that's how I left that conversation. And so even though it was killing me and, you know, and then I was killing myself trying to cover it up, it wasn't, there was no, you know, like cognitive relationship between point A and point B. If you look at it objectively, you know, abortion happened. Everything went downhill. It's very clear. It's just not something I was thinking about at the time.

There was no one to talk to, you know. There was no other guys to talk to about, you know, what I was feeling because I didn't believe my feelings were valid. So I didn't think anybody would care. And so I didn't talk about it. And so they helped me there. Like that was the first place. you know, I would say that they gave me the gift of permission to mourn. They gave me the gift of permission to feel what I was feeling.

They gave me the gift of naming my child. I named him Michael. They gave me the gift of writing letters asking for forgiveness from Michael and from my younger self. And then a letter forgiving his mother. And that really just kind of helped me to, begin the healing process. And it was it was after treatment that I went back to school, went back to college and

then went on to law school and, um, and then started that, that legal career. Did you, uh, did you relapse at any point or was it once you kind of figured out, you know, then blind spots of, of your life of, of what this was actually about was once that kind of happened. That's right. I did not relapse. Yeah. Just number 13th, 2005 was the last time that I used drugs. And I think it was much bigger than that, you know, like I was not comfortable with the life I was living for so long. I knew that it was disordered. I knew that it was not working.

And it was not who I was. And so. So being in treatment for 45 days and then throwing away my phone. So I didn't have a way to contact anybody that I knew when I got home was empowering, I guess. You know, because... In what way? Getting away from your environment? That's right. So when I initially came home, my plan was to go to the military.

So I worked some odd jobs and I ran and I exercised and I went and took some testing at the at the Army recruiter. And I really just hated running. I still hate running. So, you know, as my mind cleared from all the things that I had put into it, you know, I saw a different a different future and so i accepted that and and that's when i decided to go back to college um i always believe that like there's no such thing as as a self-made man and i suppose that probably is the same case in regards to people who are looking for help so who do you think was the biggest role who had who had a had a big role in terms of helping you turn your life around

I think that I think that it I think the number one thing that impacted my life and helped me to get clean and turn my life around was

when my dad set that boundary I think that that was and I should say that for years before that you know he had bailed me out of situations you know I had gotten myself into and so

um so that he's So that's enabling, right? He was still there. I always knew that if I got in trouble, I could call dad. And he would make everything better. And then he stopped. And then I went after, you know, his livelihood.

And he set that boundary. And he said, he said no more. You know, and I think that is the number one thing that helped with that turning point. Now, then when I got out of law school, and I studied for the bar and I wanted to get my license, you know, I had to report all of the things that I had done. I had to report that I had to report that I had been in treatment for addiction and stuff. And so they sent me back to outpatient treatment in order to get my license. And in the counselor, the licensed addiction counselor who ended up being our couples counselor as well um he's the one that

said you know you want to be a writer do you want to be happy he is the number one influence through that period that really helped me to um to move past that because even though i wasn't on drugs um from 2006 until 2011 when i graduated from law school i was I still had learned behaviors, you know, and disordered thinking, you know, and ego and all these things that kind of got in my way in relationships, whether professional or with my wife. And so, you know, he really helped me to move through that. I think the program that I was required to do was six weeks. And then I want to say like 12 months of what they call aftercare, continuing care, which was like one night a week.

And I continued to go for two years because I just kept learning so much. And much like the divorce attorney part, I was learning based on other people in the group coming in and being able to observe things that they were struggling with and being able to objectively say, this is not how I want to live. You know, it's not how they wanted to live either, but, you know, I can only control myself. So this is not how I want to live.

Yeah, you can learn off, you can learn just as much off other people's mistakes as your own. That's right. If there was, if there was anyone out there that you could actually speak to now, who let's say was in a similar position, homeless, struggling with addiction, Is there anything you would tell them? Yeah, I think the number one thing is you're not alone.

I think that people get stuck in this internalizing because addicts don't want to be addicts, right? Addicts don't want to do the behaviors that they do that push people away. I mean, that's, you know, an addiction is, or, a behavior that you repeat over and over and over again that gets in the way of you fulfilling your obligations or the things that you want to do. And so, you know, addicts don't want to live the life they're living. They just can't get out of it. And it takes something, you know, a lot of people call it rock bottom. And, you know, but it takes something to trigger that, hey, this is no longer going to be the life that I'm going to live. But because while they're

it they're internalizing all these feelings of of this sucks there's nothing that can do you know i've tried to quit right everybody always try to quit dozens of times and relapse and quit and relapse and quit and you know maybe for a day maybe for a week maybe for a month and then and then relapse because um because it's it's really really hard and it's really hard to do by yourself so i would say The number one thing that I would tell somebody is you're not alone. There is recovery. You know, people do recover and people recover well and people become really successful. I'm not the only person I know who has had similar experiences to what I've had, you know, being at just the absolute worst in life.

and then, you know, getting back in, back on track and having, you know, at least worldly, the perception of worldly success, right? Or what we would, we would call success. And so, so it's absolutely possible. And, and then, you know, because you're not alone, you got to, you got to, you got to, to talk to people, you know, and you got to find people who, who understand. And maybe that's a counselor. And I'm going to be honest, a lot of people who are addicts don't have money for a counselor. But, you know, maybe it's a recovery group. And, and maybe you have to go to 15 different

recovery groups before you find one that is going to work for you because some of those recovery groups are toxic. You know, some of these people have switched their addiction for alcohol or drugs to an addiction for recovery. And, you know, and they think they are the end-all, be-all of recovery. And it's just, it can be really toxic. And so finding the one that works for you instead of going to one, feeling like it's a shit show and deciding it's not worth it and then just going back to drugs or alcohol, right? But finding the group that works for you because,

because man, what's on the other side of recovery is just amazing. You know, just the ability to be clearheaded, the ability to be in control of your thoughts, the ability to have meaningful conversations. I mean, all the things that addiction takes away from you. the ability to have meaningful relationships. And it's so worth it.

And so that's what I would tell people. I would say, look, you know, number one, you're not alone. Number two, because you're not alone, find the people that can help you because people want you to succeed and that it's possible to recover. And then on that same note, you know, people ask me all the time. and I would have clients not just for divorce, but for child custody. I'd have like grandparents who would be coming in to get custody of their grandchild because their child as an addict.

Because I was very public about my addiction and recovery. And that drove a lot of people in who knew that I would understand that situation. And so they would always ask the same question because it's incredibly hard. And that's one reason I have so much respect for what my dad did is I know. know from hearing it so many times how hard it is for someone to completely cut off the addict in their life because they believe that if they cut the addict off and then they die, it's their fault, right? And it's not. Like our obligation to an addict that we care about is to love them and to be there for them when they're ready. Our obligation is not to fix them.

Our obligation is not to help them when they fall. Like, they need to fall and they need to figure out that they're tired of falling so that they can, you know, start walking on a different path. And so anything other than cutting that person off is enabling their behavior. That makes a lot of sense. You even touched on there about, you know, after becoming a, sober essentially, you know, the other side of being perceived as success in terms of, you know, what society would, would deem as success. What now in your life would, would you consider a

successful life? Like, how do you want to look back on your life and say, okay, you know, did this was success to me? I want to, um, I want to make an impact that helps other people, service is the answer to that question. I want to be able to look back and say that I helped other people. And I want to raise amazing kids. And I want to have a healthy relationship. You know, those are the with my wife. I want to have a healthy marriage.

I don't want any other relationships. But I think those are the things that are the most important to me. And I feel like I made an impact. when I was a divorce attorney, I feel like I helped some people. I just think there was a time that came where whoever it was that I was supposed to help, I helped. Whether that was me or a client or whatever, like whatever it was, I was meant to accomplish in that period of my life, I accomplished it and it was no longer the right path for me.

And so, you know, so what I'm doing now is I'm running, a national pro-life nonprofit focused on helping men who have been impacted by abortion, excuse me, and empowering men to become active leaders in the pro-life movement. What we've learned is that one in five men, and these statistics are in America, but one in five men will lose a child to abortion by the time they are 45. we know that 73% of those men,

whether pro-life, pro-choice, crosses the ideological lines recognize an adverse change in their life after the loss of that child, after the abortion.

And then we know that 57% of men, which again crosses ideological lines because it's pretty much an even split. 57% of men would have chosen life had the choice been theirs. So helping men on two fronts. The first is helping them to, I guess, three fronts.

The first is by sharing as many stories as we can of men who have been impacted by abortion so that people don't think they're alone because I thought I was alone. You know, and every time I talk, I will have someone come up to me and say, a man come up to me and say, I have not told anybody this in 20 years, in 30 years. And it could be, they haven't even told their spouse, you know, but when I was in college or whenever it happened, I lost a child to abortion. And sometimes it's people that were in a similar situation to me where they wanted to, to protect the child. And sometimes it's men who pushed for the abortion.

And they've just held this in and they felt this guilt and they felt this shame and this regret and this loss. But they didn't think there was anyone they could talk to until they heard someone who had a similar situation talk about it. And so the more stories we share, the greater impact we can have by reaching as many men as possible so that they can know that they're not alone, that their feelings are valid and that there are opportunities to work through that so that they can become really a whole person. Because if we're living with any kind of trauma that we're not, that's unresolved, we're not really living as our whole selves. And if we're not living as our whole selves, then we're not serving our families and

our communities and the people that are put in our path to serve. in the best way possible because we're holding back now so so that's the first the first objective that we have the second is to um to provide resources and this is through the nonprofit that i'm running to provide resources for men who who may um who may be faced with a conversation about an unplanned pregnancy which is which was going to be my next question in in terms of having a conversation with the mother of an unborn child about potential abortion and them obviously feeling like they don't have a voice to speak up about it. Yeah.

So we've learned that they, that what women really want, and I'm sure that that someone's going to see this and just like go after it and that's fine. But what women want is to know that everything's going to be okay. They want to know that they do not have to do this alone. They want to know that they just want to know that everything is going to be okay. But also what we've learned is that because that communication doesn't happen, sometimes both people are making the assumption that the other person wants the abortion and they're not speaking up because they're scared.

And in multiple stories of people who later talked about it and learned. that both of them would have kept the baby. Especially if they're young as well. Yes. And so there's, you know, there's a lot of talk about how abortion is about women's empowerment. But I think it's important to point out that that somewhere around 70% of women who had an abortion say that they were coerced, whether it's by family, whether it's by, you know, their significant. I think another. They were, they were, I don't want to use the word force, but they were coerced into

thinking this was the right decision. And so, you know, we're faced with that because I'm aware that there are men who push for abortions, right? I'm aware that not all men are moving to be comforting. There's a lot of selfish men, right? there's a lot of men who who see abortion as birth control you know and and that sucks because that's that's really not a masculine way to look at life that's a way to say um i'm now faced with a new responsibility that i don't want therefore i'm going to refuse to accept the responsibility

and and that's that's like the least masculine thing you can do right um it's just being the the the epitome of selfishness. I would say that that falls into, you know, the toxic masculinity that people throw around way too broadly, but it's reflected in, in people like, I hate to use the overused example, but Andrew Tate, you know,

who's just very, I don't know, man, I don't know any men who are as anti-women. Yeah. Well, this is the issue is that, like, second category, which is probably a small fraction of the entire population and then that's brushed over men in general. Right. That's right. And so, you know, and then I don't want to get

too far into that because that's a whole other conversation, yeah, but um, going into culture wars then. Yeah. So, so, so, you know, I think that it's important that that, that young men or men who are face of an unplanned pregnancy are aware that their voice does matter because the person on the other side of that conversation is listening, you know, and not in every situation is the conversation going to go in a positive direction, but it's a conversation worth having because what they may find is that the mother is just scared and doesn't know what else to do and doesn't think that you're going to support them. And because of that, doesn't see a way out.

And that's a crappy place to be, you know. Like, I'm very clear that, and this is just to set up what I was going to say, what I'm going to say next, but I'm very clear that I do not have negative feelings about the mother of, about Michael's mother, right? I don't I don't hate her I don't have any negative feelings about her at all I don't know what was in her head at that moment I don't know what external sources

pressures from her family you know I don't know what her frame of reference was going into that situation as she was raised I don't know how or if she's been impacted by that decision over the last 27 years like i don't know any of it and i'm not going to come at someone with hatred when i have zero understanding of of the situation that they were in of the situation that they believed they were facing from their perceptions i think that um it's really important especially as men to not only to not only be strong men you know as as we've moved into the pro-life movement, you know, not only to speak for life as the strong man,

but to speak with compassion, you know, without judgment. Because, because I know what's gonna happen in many cases is that decision is going to impact the mother for the rest of her life. There's too many stories of women who've had abortions and her, are now the majority of stories of women who've had abort or who are on the front lines of the of the pro life movement have had abortions.

You know, well, that would that would make sense because it was it's almost like a, uh, a protective mechanism that your brain is going to use because it, you know, if, if you have to, you know, it's easier basically to justify your decision than to look back on it with maybe a regret. Yeah. Well, so to be clear on what I said, though, the majority of pro-life women have had abortions. Okay. Sorry. Apologies. And when I say that, I shouldn't say the majority of pro-life women. What I should say is a large, a large portion of women who are leading the pro-life movement.

Ah, as I just said, pro-choice, apologies. no you're good um so so i think that you know and i think it comes from a place of not wanting anyone to have to feel what they felt and that's where i'm coming from too if i can help another man to not feel what i felt and not go through what i went through or what i put myself through um then that then i win like that's that's that service that that that i think would would lead to me being able to look back and say I had a successful life. If I can help another man who just lost a child to abortion or lost a child to abortion over several years ago

and is suffering in silence to realize that he's not alone, he doesn't have to be silent. There are people he can talk to and people who can help him to work through this, then I win. Look, if I can do anything that's going to end abortion, then I win, but looking at it realistically from the standpoint of what can I do now to create the biggest impact and to help people, you know, if I can help one person, then that's success. And so that's kind of where we're trying to head.

Do you think that there's kind of almost three camps? There's the, you know, pro-life, pro-choice, and then them people kind of in the middle. and it's kind of winning them people over because I presume it's very hard to to win people over like I've seen all sorts of debates online with this like it's probably very hard to win over that camp when they've already kind of put their flag in the ground

and what they believe regardless of whether the conversation comes from logic or not right and it's because we're coming at it from two different viewpoints. Like I say a, you know, that human life begins a conception. And at that point, what you have is a human being at whatever place of development. And I believe that, then an abortion kills a human being.

If someone's coming at it as this is just a clump of cells, right? This is not a human being. This is not, you know, it's a fetus, which is, I mean, our arguments are a whole other podcast as well. But if someone's coming at it from that completely different view, then it's important to figure out how to speak to them about it and come to find some common ground. Well, this was going to be my question. It's going to be like what is the most effective way to to have this conversation with that camp or to change their minds on on this issue if that is even a possibility? I think that that it starts with and I'm stealing this just so that we're clear.

I'm stealing this from Josh Brom who is the president of the Equal Rights Institute. But and I'm sure I'm going to mess it up. But but I think it comes from first. finding some common ground, finding an agreement, you know, and can we find an agreement that all humans are deserving of equal rights, you know, and then backing into that, you know, well, what about, you know, what about a baby with Down syndrome? Should they have equal rights to, to at least live, you know, and then backing it into, what about a baby who's just born? You know, do they have equal rights, you know, and kind of just moving, moving throughout the process, because that's what

it's about. It's about an equal right to live. And I believe we all have the right to live. And, you know, and I mean, the science is there that it is, it's obviously, you know, if a man and a woman get pregnant, like, it's a human. like there's she's not pregnant with anything else and so um so the hardest thing i think is is overcoming the pervasive lies of the abortion industry over the last 52 years that that it becomes so commonplace that people believe them without doing research people believe

them without wanting to look at the reality you know and the science and the images um you know, of a, of a human baby in utero, or we'll just say a fetus, at six weeks, at seven weeks, at eight weeks. And once you see those images, it's really, it's really much harder to try to make the argument that this is not a, not a baby. And to that point, if you look at here in the States, we have really kind of two camps. We have Planned Parenthood and abortion clinics, and we have pregnancy resource centers. Many of the pregnancy resource centers, one of the things they offer is an ultrasound.

They offer an ultrasound when you come in so that they can show you the baby, that there's a baby. And there was an amazing video put out, I think by live action, last week that was a bunch of audio recordings of people calling Planned Parenthood all over the country and asking, do you offer ultrasounds? And the representative in every single one of the cases saying, we only offer ultrasounds. if we are going to do an abortion. We will not offer an ultrasound so that we can tell you the gender. We will not offer you an ultrasound so that you can know if the baby's healthy.

And I think that's really telling because they're in the business of abortion. And I don't care who says they're in the business of women's health. If they're in the business of women's health, they would have no problem giving an ultrasound to somebody to know about the health of their baby and their pregnancy. Instead of not,

because if they show you that, there's a high likelihood you're not going to get an abortion and then they're out of business. Can you tell the listeners a little bit about the the Democrats vote to block the born alive abortion survivors

protector act? Because that's how I you know, came into contact with you was when you put up that video and, you know, for the listeners in Ireland they might not know too much about it in the States

and I thought it was fascinating and disturbing all at once. So there was two versions. There was one version that went through the Senate and one version that went into the House. So the first one that was put up for a vote was the Senate vote, and that's the one that I did the video on. And so the bill was a one-page bill that said, And if a baby is born alive during or after through an abortion procedure, they are entitled to life-saving care. And if they do not receive life-saving care, providing criminal penalties on the doctor or

the abortionists, if they're not a doctor. So that's all the bill did. That was it. Like you go in for an abortion, but instead a baby is born who is alive, you have to provide the same standard of care that you would provide to any other baby born at that gestational age. Right. And I think that's really important. So if a baby is born through natural, you know, natural process, not a

abortion at 16 weeks, and I'm just using these numbers as an example, but this is what the bill means, then there's a certain standard of care that the hospital would provide. And at 16 weeks, as of today, that's not a viable baby. And so, you know, there's not necessarily, in my understanding, life-saving measures that are going to occur, right? So if a baby is born alive in an abortion, in accordance with this bill, at 16 weeks, it's not like they have to hook the baby up to machines and try to do the same standard of care they would for a 30-week-old baby. It's the same standard of care as 16 weeks. So 16 weeks is 16 weeks. 22 weeks is 22 weeks. and 22 weeks is as of today's standard about, I think, the youngest that a baby has survived,

whether by abortion or whether by natural birth. So that's it, is that you have to provide the same standard of care that you would provide. And the Democrats, the Senate Democrats, voted unanimously to block this bill. And they did it with the misinformation or the lie that, number one, viable babies are not born pursuant to abortion. And we know that's a lie. It happens. I've interviewed multiple people who were born pursuant to a failed abortion.

There's Melissa Odin who has started the abortion Survivors Network. and is in contact with thousands of abortion survivors. And we know there's way more than that because many people don't know that they survived in abortion. They would have been, you know, provided care and then adopted many times. So she just happens to have found her medical records that show that she was born alive

during an abortion procedure. And, you know, and even as she's testified across multiple countries, people will tell her she's, I mean, she's got the medical records, but they'll say this is a fairy tale, this doesn't happen, you know, or, you know, for her personally, it was a, it was a, this is in 1977, so they changed abortion, so it doesn't happen anymore, you know,

but I think in 2023, I'm going to say the name is Satoria Williams, which I would imagine people can Google. And she went in for an abortion. The baby was born alive. The doctors put it in a bag on the roof of the abortion clinics so that it would die. And it took like a week or two weeks or something like that for them to find the baby.

So it's happening now, is my point in saying that. Many times it happens because the abortionists are in the business of abortion. They're not your doctor. They're not, they haven't, you haven't had prenatal care with this person. They're not doing all kinds of checks for gestational age. You know, they're going to guess the gestational age based on, on what's going to fit the narrative they need, they need to have. And many times, you know, they may say the gestational age, you know, they may say the gestational age,

age is 22 weeks and and then the baby's born and it's like 30 weeks like in Melissa's case the initial paperwork said that she was 22 weeks pregnant her mom was 22 weeks pregnant and um the when she was born they determined that she was closer to to 30 weeks and so um so it's it's the it's the inconsistencies with actual health care by the abortion clinics and abortionists that lead to incorrect diagnoses, which can then lead to babies being born because they're wrong about the gestational age, right? And so the Democrats suggested that these were babies who were born with, um, with like fatal conditions and that it was, it was horrible to strip the mothers of their ability to hold that child in their last moment.

However, the bill specifically defines abortion and it includes viability as a necessary component of the definition of abortion. So that's absolutely not what it's about. I mean, that's just a lie. You know, that's pandering. It's propaganda. It's just saying what your voter base wants you to say so that you can. be pro abortion. This was going to be my

question on the back of this and it seems like a straightforward, an obvious question, but why? And you've kind of touched on it because their voter base is what their voter base wants. Yeah, I mean, I imagine even in Ireland that you guys are you in Ireland?

Yes, yeah, yeah. Okay. I was 100% confident, but then I wanted to make sure before I said it like that, that you guys saw the election. I mean, the Democrats entire platform was based abortion. Like they just went really hard on abortion and honestly that's probably a it was a bad move. Yeah. So they uh so yeah I mean I think um I think that there are people who are still hard line on that camp and haven't quite gotten that that abortion is not where you want to

hang your hat if if you want to be successful in politics. And I mean, I have all kinds of views on politicians on both sides of the aisle. So yeah. Can I ask you a difficult question as someone who is pro life? Like what what what what what what what's the best argument do you've heard for a bodily autonomy over the right to life? I think I think bodily autonomy is the best argument. You know, because because because you're right.

Like nobody. should have the right to tell you what to do with your body, right? I agree with that. Like bodily autonomy is incredibly important. The separation comes when there's another person involved. Once that baby is there, it's no longer about bodily autonomy. Bodily autonomy ends at the point where you make the decision to do whatever you do that gets you pregnant, right?

And, and I'm sure me saying it the way I just said it, somebody is going to throw out rape. And like, that's a whole other topic. And it comes with its own nuances and compassion. And it's really important. You know, but bodily autonomy, I think, is, is the only legitimate argument. It's just, it's just a separation of when are we talking about bodily autonomy and when are talking about killing a baby. And so you can't make the bodily autonomy argument and say that you believe that it's a baby,

right? If you make the bodily autonomy argument, it has to be a fetus. It has to be a clump of cells. It has to be an embryo. It has to be a zygote is when I saw the other day. So, so, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a legitimate argument. It's just not the, it's not what's going on in an abortion. Like, we don't, people don't go into an abortion for, for health care.

They go into an abortion and it, it's the only, to use the word health care, the only thing in health care that results in the death of a human, right? right? Now I know that in Europe and maybe in Canada now there's like euthanasia laws in different places. So that would also fall under that. But that's a different topic. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever had a conversation with someone who was pro choice and you made them rethink or redefine their views or change their mind? you know it's not something that that I think would happen in the moment. I think that if I have then I'm unaware of it.

What I hope that I would have accomplished is if I have a conversation with a pro-choice person, changing the way they view pro-life people. You know, someone that I interviewed recently made the comment that one of the biggest obstacles for men in the pro-life movement is bad men in the pro-life movement. Like people who are attacking this without compassion, people who are attacking this without an understanding or even trying to understand, you know, people who go after with hate and vitriol.

It makes bigger divide then. Right. And you're not solving anything. Like you're pushing people away at that point. So my hope is that I can change. I've had many conversations where people have said, I see what you're saying, but, you know, and then we're able to continue the conversation.

It's really important to me that when I'm in that argument, that I'm not making personal attacks, right? Which is so easy. Even if your personal attacks are being made at me, because it's so easy from behind a keyboard or, you know, behind your phone to say things to people you've never met and never will meet. But, you know, my goal is not to win the argument. My goal is to change the heart.

And so if what I can accomplish is providing an opportunity to have a real civil discourse, you know, and critical thinking and have a conversation with someone who I disagree with without leaving, without either of us leaving, hating the other person because we have different views, I think that that's a win as well. I think, you know, at that point, we can probably both walk away and say,

okay, so all pro-life people or all pro-choice people aren't idiots. You know, they're well-thought-out and well-intentioned. And look, I agree with a lot of a lot of the other arguments that pro-choice people make. And some of those arguments are that if men are going to have the right to speak out against abortion, then they need to have the obligation to help during maternity, like to help

with maternal expenses, to help with pregnancy expenses, to help after the baby is born. And 100%, I agree with that. I think that pregnancy is an obligation. You know, there's a baby, and now you have an obligation of responsibility, whether you're the father or the mother, it doesn't matter. Like, how do we make this work? And so I agree with that. I also think that, you know, one of the great questions that someone posed was,

you know, what about child care expenses? What about, like, why aren't we working about all the, on all these things? and we should. Like we should be working on making it easier on the mother. Like there shouldn't be this this huge burden on mothers. It can't be that I'm pro-life because I want you to have the child. And then I never care about anything after that, right? Like I don't care about you as a person while you're pregnant.

I don't care about you after you deliver. Like that's not going to work. And so while I'm someone who is completely against social welfare systems, you know, I also believe that at least here in America, there's a ton of government waste. And, you know, if we took some of that money and put it to helping mothers who needed help in order to provide life for their children, you know, that's something I could get behind. I think they're already taking my taxes,

so why not use it for something that helps people? Yeah, yeah. Well, that is one of the biggest, it is probably the biggest issue with people probably not having more kids. I've obviously been going down to kind of population, decline population collapse kind of side of things lately. And, you know, even,

advocating my pro family viewers online gets me attacked from people saying in this economy we can't afford to be having children and so on and so far and I'm also like I definitely think that

you know government's being able to incentivise people to have more kids I think that's a win for everyone because you know more families you know families that stay together create good communities. 100%.

It helps everyone. Yeah. There's a few more questions that I wanted to ask you. And it more so just kind of, through all your life experiences, a few kind of wisdom questions. And one was obviously, like it took you 12 years to graduate from college. He said you failed out.

Two colleges, three times I think it was. So for men out there who might be listening, because obviously I know you're, a big advocate for men and bringing men back up and getting their lives back together. What advice would you have for people who, for men essentially, who feel like they've kind of missed the opportunity, life has kind of passed them by, they kind of think that it's too late to make an impact on people, on their lives. What advice would you have for them men?

Start now. Like, I just, I'm very blessed. to be able to disagree with that because from my own personal experience, you know, I, um, by the time I got to law school, I was about eight years older than everyone else there, um, are the majority of people there. And, and I should say the majority of people there, because there were people there that were older than me, um, by a lot, um, who had chosen to, to take a different career path. I think we get stuck in the idea that what we start working at is where we will continue working at until we're done working.

And for some people, that's amazing, right? They start working at something that they're really passionate about and they continue to do that. And they find a life of fulfillment. And that's great. But for a lot of people, you know, we're pigeonholing ourselves into a career at, you know, at the age of 18 or 22 or 25, you know, for the next 40 years.

And it may have been awesome when we started that, but, you know, it may stop being awesome. And, you know, and that's what I experienced as an attorney. And so it just stopped being fulfilling. And I have no regrets about pulling back from the practice of law. I can tell you that running a nonprofit is not as lucrative as being an attorney. journey. You know, like I actually turned them down when they offered me the position at Men for Life for about 18 months. I turned down. And, and then I was on an airplane one day going, going to California to meet with, with Badros Kulian, who is our business consultant.

And it just, like, it came to me. And it was like, this is what I want to. you to do. And so I got off the plane and I went and met with him. I was like, look, this is what I think I'm supposed to do. You know, there's not a lot of money in it. And he was like, man, I think that's, I think that's a great idea. I think that it can help you to make an impact. And I think that, you know, I'm going to, I'll go ahead and take the work you do with them and incorporate it into our consulting. And that was just really validating that I was, you know, making the right decision. And so it was on a plane home that I sent an email and said, hey, I don't know if you guys are still looking, but if you are, I'm interested in doing this. And it's been hard, but it's been fulfilling.

You know, it's exciting. It's, I believe that I'm doing things that will make an impact and help other people. And so whether that's your goal or not, you know, being fulfilled, certainly, I hope, is your goal. And so, you know, I don't think there's a time limit on when you're allowed to make a change in life. I think, you know, there's nothing that I can say that's going to be as great as how Gary Vaynerchuk says it, you know, and he says it all the time. you know, whether you're, you're 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 or 50 or 60 or 70, you know, it's not too late because you're not dead. Like, what are you going to do with the next, with the next 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years?

You know, I think I'm way more excited about the next 30 years than I was when I was practicing law. you know and and look this is what i'm doing now because this is where god wants me now and if if in five or ten years he calls me in a different direction you know then then i have no problem with that i think there's a great amount of confidence that comes with going from being homeless to um to being to have in the home you wanted, you know, to work. I mean, it took a lot of work, but I have a really high risk tolerance because I'm not scared. You know, what's the worst that can happen? I've already been there and this is where I am now so I can do that again.

And I think that sometimes that's what it takes is for somebody to take that jump. there's a book called The Big Leap by Gail Hendricks, or Gay Hendricks, I'm sorry. And that's kind of what it talks about, you know, is finding joy in what you're doing and not being tied down to what you've been told or what you've led yourself to believe. You have to be done. You have to do even though you're not finding joy. Right. And so, I mean, there's too many people who have started over.

You know, there's, there's too many, too many stories of people who, you know, well-known authors who didn't write their first book until they were 50, you know, things like that that, that you can't look past it. You know, I think the fear is breaking away from what's stable, even if it's not what you want and even if it's not getting you what you want but it's but it's stable to go after um to go after something that that has a lot of unknowns but i think the human condition is that if we break free from that stability we get into survival mode and and if i break free from practicing law and say I'm going to go run a nonprofit, and I don't do everything in my power to make that work,

then, you know, that I'm not, I'm not living for my family. I'm not living for my kids. I'm not doing the things that need to happen so that we can maintain the life that we like. You know, and so, I mean, that could be, that could be the life, you know, if you're in a, in a um i don't know in a in a low-income job with a you know low-income house and and um you know you quit that job like you're going to survive like you're going to figure out like what do i need to do next like how do i how am i going to make this work and and so especially if you find the thing that you are passionate about and you say right i'm going to burn the boats like i'm going to i'm

And I've got enough money for a cushion, which I think is incredibly financially responsible. Like I wouldn't just quit with zero dollars in the bank and go. Like I wouldn't start out on the path of setting yourself up for homelessness. But, you know, once you have a cushion and say, I'm going all in and then just go all in and just know that, yeah, it's going to be hard. You know, starting something new is hard. starting a business is hard. It takes way more hours than you think it's going to take. And it's worth it because it's exciting.

And that excitement drives success, I think. There's a great reframe, I love. And it's like, well, like if you can be mildly successful in a job that you're not passionate about, imagine what you could do in a job that you are passionate about. And like when people are like afraid to take that risk to kind of burn the boats or to to be more risk of earth, um, thinking about well, if I can be successful in something that I don't really care too much about, you know, imagine what I could do with something that like, because most people's, the difficulty for most people is that they don't actually know what they're

passionate about. So if you find that, like, you know, you're, you're obliged to go for it, I think. And then we have this fear of finding it because, because, because it's, you know, you're obliged to go for it, I think. if we find it, yes. And we know that it's there and we don't pursue it. We're letting ourselves down. Or if we do pursue it, we're scared of failure.

And the War of Art by Stephen Pressfield is, it's really short. Like, you know, and the audio, the audio book is, I don't know, I think it's like an hour and a half for the whole book.

And it's just full of information about, about what you just said, you know, but about, about about stepping through that that fear and realizing that if you're living in a in a life where you're not pursuing the passion then then you're not really living a you're not really living a full life it's and he's another one who you know I think ended up as an author later in life.

So I think I don't know. I wouldn't change anything. I'm glad that it's not practice law, but I'm glad that I'm not practicing law now. Yeah. But you know what I was even thinking when you were speaking there was like

even though, okay, what you're doing now is a lot different to your old job. One thing you said to me at the start was, you know, how you define successes, you know, a part of successes, is being in service to others. And you can be in service to others

no matter what type of work you do. Like whether that is you being an attorney, a divorce attorney and, you know, helping people make the right decision or whether it is what you're doing now and empowering men. Like you, there's so many different ways to be of service and, you know,

finding that way for you. But it's like instead of us, like you said, pigeon a hole in ourselves into labels, It's more about kind of the values that we want to instill. That's right. And that's what that's what's going to be fulfilling, you know. And it's, I don't know, it's crazy. I think, I think that a lot of people's hopes and dreams of childhood are shot down as

unrealistic or as, you know, you're not going to make any money doing this. You know, I mean, I remember being in high school and teachers saying, you have a great voice for radio, you know, and this is in 1990s, right, where there's no money in radio. And so that was not on my radar. But imagine if we had thought, you know, 30 years ahead to where, I mean, radio in podcasting, and it's just, it's not the same. You know, the opportunities that exist are not the same. you know you don't make a lot of money as an artist right you don't make a lot of money as a

writer you know the success rate is is whatever you know you you're not going to be a professional athlete and in the the well-intentioned direction to to bring us to reality um which i think is the intention to to be realistic takes away that drive to do something that that makes us truly happy and and what's really realistic is nobody who's telling you that knows that you're not going to be the best writer nobody that's telling you that knows that you're not going to be the best artist or the best athlete you know the people who are telling you that are trying to temper your your passions because they want to make sure you're not disappointed but

In doing that, they're also holding you back from doing something that may really be what you're calling is. And so, you know, connecting with that and trying to say, hey, you know, this is this is something that I think I'm really good at and I think that I would enjoy. And I would like to try, even if I made less money, is going to make you way happier. Last question. This has been a wonderful conversation. but if people wanted to follow up and what you do

or just follow your work, where can they go, Sean? I appreciate you asking that. So Men for Life is the name of our organization. We are on X, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, everywhere. It's all the same. It's the at symbol,

at N-T-L men, for life. My personal Instagram, everything is at L, Sean, S-E-A-N, C-O-R-C-O-R-A-N. And I'll leave everything on the show notes. So if anyone wants to follow, you can just click on the link in the description below and it will take you straight to Sean's work. I also would recommend this substack, which I was reviewing before this conversation. I thought it was really good. Sean, thank you again for today. It's been an absolute pleasure.

I hope we can do it again. Thank you, Carl. I appreciate it. Thanks for watching. If you like that episode and you want to see more content like this, make sure you're subscribed and I'll see you on the next one.