The Uneducated PT Podcast - Ep.73 Stress Eating

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

In this episode of the podcast wee speak to Nathan Keevil Online WeightLoss Coach all about stress eating. Nathans Instagram In our conversation we explore the deeper layers of stress eating, touch on secret eating, the obesity map and unpack the oversimplication of the "eat less, move more" message. We also discuss guiding clients back to homeostasis, how memory distortion plays into beahviour, and the cruel role language plays when having meaninful dialogue with clients. 

Hello and welcome to the uneducated PT podcast with me, your host, Carlo Rourke. The goal of this podcast is to bring on interest and knowledgeable people from all walks of life, learn a little something from each conversation and for you, the listener, just learn something from each episode. So don't forget to subscribe to the channel, press the box below, show some support and I'll see you on the next episode. What are the core issues that people are missing out on when they're trying to lose weight or struggling to lose weight?

I mean, you know, one of the first things we can refer to as a child who could think to up is the obesity map essentially where there's a whole multitude of different things that are just outside the realm of purely the essence of calories in calories out it is the frustrating thing about being in this social media world that we live in nowadays that everyone does put in the evidence of okay it's a calorie deficit it is fantastic yes from a physiological standpoint that is going to be your baseline and that's where always so information comes from now but it is that further thinking that is often required. You know, a lot of the points that we touched on are relating to, obviously,

stress-based eating and overeating in general. It is a huge issue that the majority of individuals who do struggle with their weight face. You know, we are looking at a minimum one in five individuals who are not classified in the obesity category will use food as a coping mechanism. If you then bring it above that and then anybody who is in the obesity or the above categories of that, it's then one in two. So before we even think about calories in calories out, it's kind of like those core issues at hand,

yes, you know that you need to do it, but it's such a conflicting issue to the goal that is at hand. If you do not solve one, it becomes so difficult to then persevere with the other. That makes complete sense. So, like, obviously then, all right, so, yeah, you will hear that phrase online, oh, you just need to eat less and move more.

You just need to eat less and you need to move more. And while technically you can be correct, you're also incorrect because, you know, it's that surface level answer that's not going to help the individual who's been struggling for years with field. Yeah, precisely. You know, there's no other way to kind of essentially put it in that. It's like, yes, the human body is the human body, you know. And you'll see it. No human being is magical.

No one can essentially defy this. But, you know, we can go into a whole multitude of the discussions realistically for hours and hours and hours from even like economical basis where it's going to affect geographically, you know, not just obviously from a psychological point of view as well. So it's one of the most frustrating things I think of a non-culture. When you, when you when you're being someone for someone who's immersed in the fitness industry and probably sees a lot of this messaging from. from fitness coaches, online coaches, people who were supposed to be helping people with weight loss. Where do you think this comes from? Do you think this comes from like this message of just,

you know, eat less, move more? Do you think it's just a lack of empathy? Do you think it's ignorance? Do you think it's because, again, they believe that they are right, which technically they are, but in every other way they're not? Yeah, it can potentially be, I mean,

there's a whole host of things. I think within the fitness spirit in general, it is a lot of kind of like copycat, understanding everyone's kind of like off the same stick. It is, okay, you've seen one person blah up in a video, cool, let's go do my own little take on it, you know, and even word for word, even if you change it verbatim, like it is the same thing put over because that is how it is. It can be that. It can be a potential lack of understanding from a further point of view. I've typically found from, you know, a lot of personal trainers in that, obviously, From myself when I was younger, you know, I spent my whole life trying to grow up, trying to essentially lose weight.

And that was how my environment was and how it kind of shaped to me. So I had that core knowledge kind of behind everything growing up in a house heart that is, very much diet obsessed. And that's how a lot of my teenage years were. You know, it's having that kind of understanding that, okay, I knew then I needed to eat less and move more. But I could just never do it, you know. and there's that knowledge there but then there's certain individuals who know that, can do that,

haven't got an issue with it and I guess we'll just make the assumption if we look at the stereotypical kind of online personal trainer, PT and I guess as well a lot of it comes down to education to a certain degree, especially if we want to really dumb it down to what a level

for PT qualification is at the end of their day I did mind in like a few few weeks, you know, it says it all really. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, like you even touched on there, even relaying the message, I know, I know myself from kind of really like a couple of years of kind of studying the algorithm and what gets attention and what doesn't get attention. Like you put the word, you know, calorie deficit or you put the word, you know, move more and eat less into the start of a

sentence of a video. You're going to do, you're going to get far more engagement than you are. if you tried to have a nuanced conversation about the reasons of why you're struggling to, you know, eat less and move more. And I think to an element, there is a good side that also comes from it just to be the devil's advocate. Because obviously it understands the basics, the fundamentals for people which they do need to obviously understand when we look at the very much the diet industry as a whole. It neglects to share a lot of this.

And it has done where, especially when we go into, you know, we could be consuming clubs or fads or anything like that. It's kind of like you're looking at, let's say having a twigs. It's very much thing as a no-go, whereas a lot of the kind of online perception of things, yes, calorie deficits are great because it has taught people

how to actually get that bit of inclusion within there. So there's always going to be the good and the bad. It has to come from a nuanced perspective that each individual, that message might be the thing that they need to hear that, you know, calories is what matters instead of kind of falling into the weeds of, you know, you can't have sugar or this spice your insulin or whatever it is. But then there's also the other side that's like, you know, to simplify it to a kind of almost disgusting level for someone who is really, really struggling with their rate that, oh, you just need to eat less.

If it's that simple, well, you know, if it's that easy without kind of looking at, like you said, the obesity skit mapping and all these other little kind of rabbit holes that you can fall into in terms of why it's so difficult to do that. Yeah, the pure frustration that comes from it. I think because of social media and the rise of the information we have and the internet in general, people understand how to lose weight. People have, everyone knows it. I think it's one of the most common things I will hear on a discovery call of somebody who has senties like, I know how to lose weight. I've just never been able to do it.

Yeah. Yeah. Or they have done it. They've never been able to keep it off. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? And that also then ties into a lot of people then feeling like, okay, you know, I know what to do. I just can't seem to do it.

It's really, really difficult. And therefore, you know, I'm going to try and find some, you know, more sexier explanation to why I can't, you know, lose that way. And that's where they kind of can fall into, you know, maybe a little bit of Charleston messages. As to other reasons why they're not losing weight. Oh, it's because of this or it's because of X or it's because of why. yeah i think a lot of the i guess like the demonization of certain ingredients and things like that now especially when you take it to the extremes when you talk to charlatans you look at the the carnival community for instance and been very prevalent against me at my page in the last

month for one particular video but you know it did certain highlight in fact just like that where it turns into this very much this dichotomy of thinking is like I've not been able to do that it's all the processed food in this world but then it's also got to be the vegetables and fruit of course because there's fructose in it

that's where I've gone wrong because there's sugar in fruit ah of course and you're always looking for the next thing to find out why it is that this is difficult and you know it's it's because weight loss

is difficult it's just because something just because something as simple advice doesn't mean it's easy advice to implement a lot of the time, I think. You also touched on, you know, one and two people struggling who are obese. So a quote I have from you is 50% of obese people struggle with using food as a coping mechanism in stress-related circumstances. Talk to me a little bit about that in terms of the role that stress plays on people's weight gain. I think stress is one of the biggest underlying factors.

I mean, especially with the evolution of the world we live in today, there is a whole multitude of stresses that we are faced. Especially as well, I kind of, I guess, we're worried for the younger generation as well from the, once again, to tie it into the rise of social media. It is constant. There is no escape from potential stresses in our life. And one of the things I touched upon the other week in the talk was just how the perception of it, it is all down to an individual basis, essentially. stress will essentially accumulate over time. We will all see stress as a different thing. What is stressful for one person is not stressful for another.

Doesn't essentially matter. And then whatever somebody perceives of stress, over time it's just going to build. And then we will obviously enter a nice little fight or flight state. With our evolutionary traits, yes, we're going to enter this state, but obviously the world around us has changed significantly. And we're no longer in this kind of. of climate where we need to be fearful of a predator anymore, which is obviously fantastic,

but then we still have the same biological responses. We need to get the fuck out of this state, the part of my French there. So for our kind of baseline, it's now thinking, okay, what's going to help bring us out of that state? What's going to be the next best thing? When we're around every food and things of this nature, we are in a hyper, I guess, a hyper obesity style environment where hyper-palatable food is everywhere. It is super simple to be able to obtain anything to our desire. And, you know, you can be at home now with Deliveroo and all these based apps. If you're in a city, for instance, it's super simple.

You've got a corner shop around every street. And the reason why it's hyper-tipaterful foods more than any other food groups will be associated with because it's the lovely mix of sodium, sugar and fat, Very easy delivery. Very easy to overe. In the first instance, but more specifically, like the blend of these ones, it is more kind of calming for an individual. So it's a greater way to bring them out and perceive that stress to bring it down to have that feeling as safety. I think especially as well when we anonymize a lot of these foods as well, they taste amazing.

They will release a lot of dopamine, foods at high in carbohydrates, which we typically have during this time. serotonin-ducing, they feel good, they make us, you know, realistically love these other foods. We would typically attach certain food groups as well with feelings of kind of safety and feelings of joy, I guess, in many ways. That's why certain people will tend to highlight certain foods as well, but it'd be like, just can't get rid of chocolate. Usually there's a bit of an attachment to chocolate in some way, shape or form. That's probably a little bit more deep-rooted than there's a particular reason why. Chocolate's fucking great, of course. But, you know, it's kind of that deeper thing.

I'm like, why is the chocolate great? Why is the Pacific thing there? And that could be one of the potential reasons why we see that. So yeah, to go off my little ramble there, I can't even remember the point I was making. No, that was perfect. You know, even talking about the kind of relationship between stress and overeating. And I think, you know, that really kind of ties into, okay, people talking about, okay, just eat less and move more. it's that simplistic and it's that easy.

And then, you know, when you actually go into the, to the trenches of, okay, why am I overeating? And you highlighted a word there that I thought was really interesting, which was safety. And, you know, I think that's something that people don't really think about when they think about eating food, that this food makes me feel safe. This food makes me maybe think about my childhood. This, you know, food makes me think about when I was, you know, safe with my parents or, you know, when I was, you know, experienced.

enjoy or when I got attention from someone. I remember doing a podcast with someone before and, you know, they struggled with food their whole life. They struggled binge eating their whole life. And, you know, after years and years and years of therapy and working through this, one of the things that triggered them, which was a was the sound of women screaming. And that, that trigger tended to get this person to, to, to binge eat and they also associated like going to the chipper with um you know getting love and

attention because uh the the shopkeeper and the chipper was always was always nice to this person and like i think it's it's important to recognize all these emotions that are attached to to this thing that we're we're struggling to to work out of why we're overeating all the time yeah 100% I think as well at the moment relationship with food is taking a lot of lot of prominence. And I think it's relatively quite a new thing. I don't think even a lot of people that do discuss it online don't quite understand the vast array that comes with it.

A lot of people tend to think I improve a relationship with food and then it's kind of like you can have cocoa pops after your workout. It's like, okay, that is fantastic, you can. Or it is like you can eat this many chocolate bars and you won't gain a pound of fat. But it's far more deep rooted than. you can have this. As you clearly just went through a great example of

that as reasons as to how purely attached and how significant food can be in our life and just particular items or particular sayings or sounds can really trigger something huge for people and it's not a simple on off switch or a simple kind of method to

incorporate to help. And then there's the very first point when it is so much deeper than just narrow deficit. Yeah. Yeah. So when you're working with clients who do end up stressing, like let's say, you know, they really do want to lose weight, but, you know, they're really saying, I know what I need to do. I just can't seem to do it. And, you know, to get into these situations, whether it's, you know, stress and work, stress a home, financial stress, you know, fighting with their partners, toxic relationships, and whatever, whatever these kind

of triggers are and they end up stressing. And like, what would your advice be to them people? What's your advice to clients when these patterns occur or these situations happen? So typically we can have quite an open relationship with all my clients. I'll always be front of foremost and just kind of like whenever something happens, if it's stress-based overeating, like food has been used to cope with something, they will usually tell me pretty much from the get-go when it's happened. Usually there's a bit of time after you have this and you have this remuneration, feeling of guilt and stress that comes.

after an event like this because it's typically not something they would have wanted to occur. They would tell me this. We'll have a little bit of a discussion there. I'm there for support, obviously, on hand straight away. But the first thing there, we look into tackle, essentially, that kind of core issue, as I mentioned before, if weight loss or especially maintenance long-term, or even in general, regardless of the goal, unless there's a specific type of reason why a deficit still needed in place, then the first thing we're going to do is simply just pull somebody out of a deficit base

and into a maintenance, if not a slight little surplus just to be on the safe side of things. And my main goal during this time is to remove a lot of the stress that I can essentially hold when it comes to a client, you know, the things that we can essentially influence. So, you know, obviously we can't help with every bit of stress in their life. we can't do things like work or stuff like that, but we will have a certain degree that we can help with. So removing a deficit, for instance, is one of the first things we would look to incorporate

and just bringing them into a bit of a maintenance phase just to help it just because being a deficit in its own right is stressful for the body. And in the same light as well, we will look to hit kind of certain physiological markers that ensure that the body is quite regulated throughout this period to make sure they are optimising sort of hormones and just general daily functions.

it's like regular meal timing throughout the day, ensuring things like breakfasts are eating, for instance, because that tends to be the first thing, especially after a bit of an overeating cycle, people will never look to eat breakfast. And then skipping meals can be something that then induces a potential further at risk of like, okay, overeating could occur or a potential another binge. So it's just getting regular meals throughout the day, ensuring proteins being introduced, fruits and vegetables, bio throughout the day, healthy fats, really meeting those key markers. And the reason we kind of want to do this especially is just to create a nice little baseline form. It is just removing the stress, removing that kind of takeaway action of that

overwhelming feeling of stress and guilt that is associated with it. And just return to a natural point. So we will do the same with exercise. We will take exercise out for this time period straight away after just because it is good stress. Of course it is. Exercise is fantastic. I'm never going to say exercise is a bad thing in no way shape or form i think everybody should do it to whatever capabilities they have available to them but it is a further stressure upon the body and if we can just take that little bit just let the body relax a little bit treat it as a delode um essentially just that allows just a little bit more baseline focus a little bit more and just getting outside and walking something that's low intensity great for the mind getting some sunlight exposure which it's so

right, but on days like today, we'll need to take advantage. That was your challenge. It's just taking varnish and I'm stuck indoors. We know, we'll do things, this notion for about anywhere between three days is a minimum, up to about a week. Ideally, the longer we can get it for a week for this kind of notion. It depends on the client and their schedule, of course, but the better it's going to be because they're going to be a little bit more relaxed and they're going to be kind of just

a little bit on baseline, their motion's going to be, ease, they're going to be have a little more clarity for it. And the reason we do this is because we then head into a bit of a call. We head into a discussion. Like I said, I like a nice open platform when it comes to discussing my clients, be very open. Take a good amount of time. Yeah, I want to take as long as I possible. I'll fill out an hour or so just so we can have a good chat about this. And the reason we'll do what I've, well, what I've just discussed before even heading onto a call rather than doing straight away is just due to inaccuracy memory kind of recall. So even if we head to data, we've known this from about the late 1970s, I think it's Clifford and Scott. I've tough my head

where individuals who are in a higher stress state have a worse memory recall, right? So if we can bring an individual more to their baseline and bring them essentially back to where stress isn't remunerating or the emotions aren't fresh from, you know, from that overeating, a call straight away, the client who I will be seeking with at hand isn't going to be able to accurately portray what had happened potentially. There is obviously some data. I'm not going to be like this is 100%. There's some data which is just the other, of course. But typically speaking from why I'm in research, you're looking at 1 and 16. This is typically not going to be affected by. So the majority of the cases, I'd rather not take that chance, essentially. But then when we get the

opportunity. We've gone through a phase. We've gone into a call. I would essentially let them do the talking, but for the first kind of majority of it, it's getting a clear understanding, talking through their triggers, what's kind of led up to the event. Usually we will focus on one specific event at a time just to get a good understanding of that and is going through bit by bit what has happened and also relaying alongside it, kind of, of how they felt during the moment using their emotions, really attaching things, how certain triggers throughout the day and certain factors actually had an impact on them

and how that led up to this event. So we can get a clear understanding of their day and how this kind of built up and what certain things we need to be aware of. And when you're going through these questions with these clients and you're asking them about the experience, about the situation, you're using a very like open-ended question,

not using flammatory, you know, words that could kind of suggest them into a certain way of speaking. I 100%. My goal for it is to keep it extremely neutral. My aim is to talk the least that I can during the time. And the main reason for that being as coaches, we have a huge responsibility. if we look in psychology and put to kind of like official terms, we are authority figures in many ways. People will pay us to help them with solutions.

You know, it is very much we are seen as a higher up figure. And we know that we essentially have the power to then create what is known as memory distortion. So if we interrupt an individual as they're kind of going for their story or if they need to take a little bit of time to think about it, if I interject with like, oh, well, you know, on the way at home, did you stop off at the corner shop potentially? Or did you think about the donut? That may have never happened. But because I have then suggested it and because obviously the role that I have, we have the power and capability to distort somebody's memory for them to actually fill in the gap

and start to believe what I have said to be the truth. I am after you spoke about this I went and I looked at this study and I thought it was so so interesting and loftus and palmer style examples and it was like a lot of it's a lot of it's done in terms in terms of like attorneys and stuff like that when they're questioning people in court and it was like if there was a car crash or something that's like like how fast were the cars going when they smashed into each other versus how fast were the cars going when they smashed into each other versus how fast were the cars going when they're bumped into each other like the first one suggests that you know these cars went like it could be the same a situation maybe like two years ago there was a crash you were a witness you seeing it you know if someone suggests it in that first way you know how fast were the cars going when they smashed into each other like what does that suggest it suggests high speed violence you know huge damage versus like you know how fast were the cars when they bumped into each other when they tipped into each other like the power of your language there to kind of change the perception of the person's

memory of that circumstance like it's it's it's it's insane how how powerful your language can be and how careful you have to be with your language it it truly astounded realistically just something you if you never give it any for or never been exposed or anything like this you would never know of it realistically and that's why it's always super important just uh i think just to keep a neutral, let them talk. If there's going to be gaps within their speaking and there's going to be awkward silences for a minute or two, let there be awkward silences.

And coaches really find that really difficult, don't they? Yeah, mobile fear. Because as soon as someone has an awkward silence, you're like, well, it could be this, you know? Yeah. And that and that, yeah, and that's that an issue when you're kind of answering the, and I think that's the difference between, like,

people try to solve the problem before they even know what the problem is because that's what we want to be. We want to be problem solvers. We want to be helpful. And by being overhelpful, you're not actually helping at all. Yeah, it's a real kind of like paradigm

where we have coaching the industry who probably don't care enough and then there's kind of coaches that will care to the degree where it's then going to have an unfortunate impact upon the solution and this is why trying not to interject is going to create the best resolution for them this is why taking the opportunity to allow your client to be a little bit more of a homestasis baseline level is going to be better for them because you're actually finding the

core issue at hand you're going to actually find the solution rather than one that they've potentially unwillingly made up and just based off potential schemers and ones that okay if I say this yeah this is what aligns with what my coach is saying so yeah actually that that's what happened yeah you like and and that's the danger of you as a coach thinking that you know the situation before before even find them out about the situation it's like oh i've seen this a million times this is it or it's like and then they start to use you know inflammatory words like oh yeah so what what were you doing when you were binge eating like you're just suggesting that a client now that they were bingey and when they might not have been bingey and they might have just,

you know, had a chocolate bar and they were felt completely in control of it or like for like just a one kind of example. Yeah, I mean, it's so prevalent within like any type of, I mean, any type of essentially I was trying to think it's kind of like we are researchers in many ways in terms of this because it is finding out so much information about our plan. We are actively, you know, just trying to pour out as much as we can. So we have an underlying bias. each and everyone does like that that's just part of who we are and it is just trying to separate that

as much as we can we will never be able to remove it as much as anyone likes to think you know I'm fully non-judgment or anything like that we all have biases and that it's just part of being human unfortunately but it is trying to separate it as much

you can and it is putting essentially our self in our client shoes to the best degree that we can and one of the questions that I was going to ask was like even in terms of what advice would you have for coaches who have a client who ends up stressing and but you've kind of touched on a lot there and even if you could kind of go through them even a little bit more so like obviously let's say we can't help if a client is going

through a divorce and that's a really stressful time in their life so like we're not in control of these things but like you said we're only in control of what we're in control of so like we're in control of you know you know they they were stressy and so let's not try to reduce their calories even more and let's not try to get them to over exercise to burn off them excess calories and, you know, let's try to get them as relaxed as possible. These were all things that you touched on. So would that, would that be advice that you would recommend for coaches who have clients in these situations to, like, that was a really good point I thought of remove and exercise and increase in your calories,

whereas a lot of people would have the perception of the opposite thing. Yeah, I think we've all been guilty of it at some point when somebody has had a bit of an overeating things, especially coaches, whereas like, I've heard this saying so many times, let's put those extra calories to do good use and get a good workout in. I've heard it a million times. I've seen it a million times. And the issue with us as well is that it provides positive reinforcement for our clients, whereas kind of like, let's say it's been four weeks of a dieting phase for them. The glycions depleted, you know, it's that initial stage of a fat loss phase where nobody feels too great about the way they look. There's still body fat holding have lost a lot of the

water and the muscles. So, you know, looking in the mirror, probably in the greatest time. Then say an overeating case comes in, your coach has told you, okay, let's just use it to good use and then go have a great session in the gym. You typically will get a good pump. You'll look in the mirror. You'll feel good. And then for our clients, one in the back of our head subconsciously, it's like, there's actually a positive twist on this. So the next time some like an overeating thing comes up, there's then that little bit more of a positive reason as to why this could actually come up for them. So removing the exercise, in my opinion,

I know it's not going to be the most popular of opinion. But when it comes to happening, this is an issue. It's not going to be something you have to revert to all the time because you're looking to obviously reduce this as time goes on. And your client's going to benefit so much more, in my opinion, out of it. Yeah, that makes sense. Another thing you touched on as well is kind of having an open space for your clients to really kind of communicate what has gone on.

So like how do coaches help their clients or how do you provide a safe space for your clients to kind of be able to share this information? Because, you know, I believe that a lot of the times that people over it and then there's a lot of kind of shame and guilt around that, which means that, you know, they're less likely to maybe share that or share the reasons to end

and that can be difficult as well if, you know, like, for an example, like you might have a client who, you know, was made fun of when they were younger for their size and therefore they,

you know, would secretly and they wouldn't eat in public and then that led to them overreating at night and so on and so forth. So like, obviously there can be a lot of shame and guilt around food and especially around overeating. So how can we create spaces where clients feel comfortable to be able to share that information.

I think when it comes to working the clients a lot. So for instance, even like for myself, I've heavily suffered with like secret eating in that when I was younger. And obviously you don't need to be an individual who has experienced it personally in order to help, you know, it can be very helpful for a client to sometimes, obviously, hear that. But I think when it comes to being a bit of a safe space, it is kind of a little bit of being that kind of vulnerable individual, you know, we,

are coaches, but at the end of the day, we are human. You know, and it's, I think, creating our understanding of being open with your clientele. Like, when I talk with my members, I will discuss my wins in my community future chat. I will discuss when things aren't going perfect. And I'm having a week that's not going perfect, but I will still remunerate the wins that I can find off the back of that. And it's creating a very open and honest dialogue, I think, with them. When I'm on a consultation call with anyone that comes on, it's getting a good feeling with them. I think for even a lot of online content that you can put across as well. If you're going to try to put out this perfect notion of yourself,

it can be very hard, I think, for somebody to open up to that because maybe they do see it as you not potentially understand it. You may not potentially feel like they can open up to you. It's just having your personality out there. And I guess the language as well that we can use can be a huge asset within this. So I guess it's hard to say how to kind of create this as a coach. But I think little things like that can ultimately go a long way. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.

I think having a vulnerability, being able to show that you're vulnerable, and then being able to show that, you know, you come from a non-judgmental place because you yourself understand that you're not perfect and none of us are perfect. And I think when, I think people can feed off that and they know and they can kind of, share or overshare with a person. I think some people are so good at that that people constantly project their overshare all of their problems onto certain people

and then certain people kind of get away with it as well. But you spoke about even secretly and when you were younger. Can you share a little bit about that experience for maybe the audience members who might be or might have gone through similar situations in the past? Yeah. So a lot of my secret and kind of revolved, I would say my early teenage years to begin with.

So I have a background in football. So I was an academy level goalkeeper and obviously I was still a heavyset kid. I've always struggled with my weight. And for me, I personally felt a lot of pressure in that zone. I was always the heaviest kid in the kind of my surroundings in the locker room. I was the only person that would have had additional body fat that could be seen. Football was very rarely ever have much weight attached to them. And especially at younger years.

And for me, it was always trying to uphold a perfect kind of like notion to family and my peers around me that, you know, I was taking it seriously. You know, I was making sure I was eating clean, you know, having that kind of perfect thing. and then trouble was that was ultimately that was fewer restriction where I was eating clean meals consistently, just drinking water. That's what led me to the point of like, okay, I do like this type of food. I love chogler, I like Chris, stuff like that. My family's home, it would always be in a, in a garage, weirdly enough, that's where all of that was. That's where our drinks were. So I would always head up. I would finish my bottle of water. I'd go out to finish. in recycling and I'd have the opportunity to quickly open a packet of crisps, put it down my throat,

hide the wrapper essentially, take it out with me, get a new drink, and I'd repeat that multiple times per day, come home from school, I'd have an hour before anyone was home, had the same opportunity to essentially just let go. It was the same kind of thing that that pressure that I put upon myself, that nobody put upon me, realistically, no one put that pressure me at all. I put it on me because I had this notion that well if I'm going to try to be a professional footballer I need to have this perfect kind of outlook and people need to see me as it. So it was realistically putting shame upon myself for even thinking about it whereas never cared. You know it is the sad thing about it and obviously even after I finished football and things like that I still

carried a lot of that baggage where I even had to convince myself that okay I didn't make it but I still wanted to essentially be the best version of myself so I still kept that same pressure upon me and it's a very difficult thing to to hold to hold yeah it's it's never a it's never a fun or easy one to deal with I think secret you what what do you think that did to your relationship with food and what do you think were some of the things that helps you to improve that relationship with field? It had nothing but a negative impact, obviously, to realistically kind of damage my perception with food.

It's funny, like I don't think, and probably until I got to kind of university having a different environment in the first instance where I guess my relationship with food would have improved in a certain circumstance. Even though my quality of diet went to absolutely like, yeah, it was non-existent. You know, I wasn't eating any, like, there's no source of protein with my food. Typical, typical, you'd be mad. But I think the change environment for me really took and really took a lot of weight off for me to have that kind of like, okay, I didn't need to hide it.

I didn't really have a place to hide it. It was just that change in environment for me in the first instance really helped. But I still then obviously, you know, living my girlfriend at the time, wife now. You know, even then, it would still have that same kind of difficulties. I'd put a lot of weight under a new because of it even more so than I had. And then trying to get back into healthy eating, I would adopt those same type of habits because people then knew around me.

I was trying to lose a little bit of weight. So I tried to uphold that same notion. And even when I took on a coach for the first time, I was put on a pretty set bodybuilding plan where I was just having a meal plan. And I'd never deviated off it because that's my type of personality. If I set myself to something, I'm going to hold through with it. Then coming off it, I struggled heavily

because all I learned was, okay, I could follow a mill plan. Fantastic. I still didn't I still didn't never addressed my relationship with you. I never addressed my secret eating. So it was kind of a thing like, okay, I lost weight. I had the ability to maintain it. I knew I had that in my locker already, but it was kind of like, okay,

now I've got to kind of separate myself from the central fitness entry and diet culture and what I perceive to be the norms of it. Because once again, it is, it was my own perception, my perception of fitness was bodybuilding, hardcore, and that was nothing else, very much to the same kind of ideologies I had when I was younger about football. So I wouldn't say into my early 20s that I'd even do as I didn't hear about relationship with food probably until like, yeah, 22, 23. But, you know, it was just kind of like the reintroduction of meals out and stuff like that, during that time when I was following a meal plan,

I didn't even, I wouldn't go out to, you know, meals with my family and stuff like that. I would go out to them, but I'd sit there and eat nothing. Very rigid tinkin. Yeah.

Which would be no good. At the time, I thought it did me good. And that was my golden place, but obviously, you're almost wearing that as a badge of honour at the time. Yeah, yeah. And then retrospectively now,

I look at it as like, you know, this was just like post-COVID, so we're just getting out and just meeting family I'm there like I was grateful to be moving in the vicinity

my family and seeing them again but I'm there like just wasn't even enjoying a man out in the pub you know it goes to it goes to show though doesn't it like how

how much this can impact your quality of life without realising it that you like you can you can try to obtain these goals these physique goals or whatever it is

and a lot of us do it in the pursuit of thinking once we do it then we'll be happier then we'll be fulfilled because then we'll be successful in whatever way you want to look at it and then we don't really check in with the day to day of how we feel we just push that

down and continue to kind of pursue yeah it's like that pot of gold at the end of the rainboats it's always ever going and this is where like things for instance like journaling and that is there's been a huge element for me in my personal life where

I have that capability to set my intentions for the day, but then at the end of the day to be able to reflect upon things and to realistically get that good understanding as to how, you know, not even just a food, but all manners of life to ensure because, you know, to head into anything, weight loss, everything is very much holistic, everything is intertwined. Your values as a person are so important

when it comes to sustaining weight loss in its own right. So everything matters. if you're a family person, I'm very much a family person, that matters to me a lot. In that time, my pursuit of a physique-based goal was more important than that. But that's not what my core value is. But at that time, that's what I had thought had to be.

Well, I think that's a good, really good, a really good kind of point for people who are listening to this is that like, there's nothing wrong with having a physique goal. There's nothing wrong with chasing. and weight loss, you know, and it can do so much for your life. But to, like, let's say you have someone who is listening to this, who's looking to lose weight so they can show up as a better mum or a better dad or a better brother or a better sister or whatever it is.

But then you pursue weight loss and that takes up all of your headspace that you're not actually present with your family. Well, then you're losing the forest for the trees. You're not actually living in line with the person that you want to be, your core values. You're actually the thing that you, the thing that's supposed to help you, that person is actually preventing you from being that person and a lot of that comes from the approach that you take yeah it's super super important by every approach you do take has to be

individualized realistically yeah like you say it's kind of like a um i was like to think for the different core values of life it's like a cup essentially it's like you've only got a certain finite amount of water to be able to put into each of these and if you put all of it in one you're then going to neglect the other. So if it is weight loss and health, yes, it's fantastic. These are great core values. But if you are a true family person,

you know, I work for a lot of mothers, for instance. So their kids are the most important thing in the world, above them in many ways. But then they will take that out of their own one. And so they can't then look after their kids or be able to look after their health. And it is always an ever-changing scale, essentially. It's a very fine balance.

It is. But it is always important. want to keep in check. And you spoke about journaling really helping you to understand your values even on your pursuit for health and for weight loss and stuff like that. Do you think of a reason a lot of people struggle to know why they're doing the thing, whether that's weight loss and whether they're blindly following, you know, the meal plan or the training program without really checking into to themselves whether this is a net positive?

Do you think it's a lack of self-awareness at the time? Yeah, potentially. I think definitely it has a huge role to play in when it comes to it because, you know, where your awareness goes, essentially your attention will flow and that's where your results are going to show. If you're unable to see, I think you said, see past the trees essentially to the wider picture, it is, it is super hard because you become so, I guess, entrenched within certain, let's say certain diets and stuff like that.

for instance, like the carnival community, for instance, you'll look into, you'll actively seek out the net positives of it online and that. And then when you see someone go against it, they're interesting just going to disregard it and then bring in their own kind of standpoint and viewpoint. So yeah, self-awareness is super critical. And that's why always being willing to learn a matter what is super important. Even if you do have to understand, you think,

okay, I know how to lose weight, I know what to do. Even just seeking them someone out and just having a conversation, doesn't mean you have to sign up for a coach or anything like that, but just being open and being willing to ask questions and that, I think it's really important to whatever level we are. There's always more to learn. There's always more discussions to have things that I've said on this. I know that people in this industry won't agree with.

And I'm more than willing to discuss that with them, get a different viewpoint and learn about what their perspective would be. So, yeah, self-worthics is huge. Yeah. And I think even on that point as well, And it's like, and you know, you even five years from now might disagree with your points and being like, well, actually now I think this way. And I think that. Because I know, I know that's exactly how, like, if I, like, some things that I said a long time ago, I still agree. Yeah, that's a really good point. And then some things I'm like, no, Carl, you are very, very ignorant in, in your analysis of X, Y and Z. Yeah, I look back. Yeah. I know like, I'm like TikTok on that now. You get like videos like this time, like three years ago. You did this and I'm there like. Like, the fuck didn't I say that? But it's funny, isn't it?

It's all just learning on the journey whether that is you as a coach or you troture, your weight loss pursuits. And I think, I think to a degree when you look back on like them, them incidents is in your life, whether it is rigidly following the meal plan or, you know, not ordering the meal

at the family dinner. It's like, it's all learning curves for the person you'll, eventually be the self-awareness that you'll have. Oh yeah, 100%. The things that we do in life ultimately, I will never look at mistakes to be a bad thing. They're ultimately lessons, you know, it is always one of the things that people, like, if I have a consultation with anyone, I will, every time I say, I want you to make mistakes. You know, I don't want this to be perfect because I actively want to get a good understanding as to what is going to be the hardship to you,

what is going to be the hard bits there so we can help overcome that. If things just go perfect and smooth throughout, it's a little bit worrying in certain instances because we want to get to that kind of deep rooted issue. And it is super, super important to acknowledge whenever it happens. I'm saying, be self-aware of it, be open about it, and be willing to kind of take the opportunity to,

okay, this is what happened. I want to learn from it. I want to better myself. and there's nothing more empowering for somebody to kind of recognise a mistake and be like, yeah, I'm gonna fucking do better. Yeah, I think that's a huge, that's a, that's a massive point

in terms of like, what can I learn from this? Instead of thinking of as a bad thing is, or, you know, I over-ray or I, you know, I skipped my breakfast and this happened. And this is amazing. What did we, what can we learn from this rather than looking out of from a place of shame or guilt or pointing the finger?

Yeah, I think that's, that's so important. because it also reframes it to be a positive thing then the mistake is a positive thing oh yeah 100% i don't think you look at anyone in life who's ever who you deem successful in some way should before they've made mistakes they make countless of them and without them they wouldn't be in the position that they're in today yeah and i don't and like even on that point like i don't i don't consider like meal plans or anything like that as a as a bad thing but for a certain person it's like well if they're blindly following a meal plan and they haven't learned anything and they have a lot of learning to do, then it's probably not the greatest approach because like, like you said,

if we're not making any mistakes, there's probably, that's probably something to be worried about as well. Yeah. And going back to your point in like meal plans, there, there's a place for them. There, there's opportunities for them. I will implement them for certain individuals at certain times. It's not a long-term thing I'll overdo, but for a short period, for a specific reason, they do have their place. It's like everything then. It's like you have to coach the individual and instead of being rigid with your thinking

whether it's this is good, this is bad, you know, this is a bad approach, this is a good approach. Another thing I wanted to get you to just touch on as well, which I thought was really, really interesting was the working memory model. Could you explain to the audience a little bit about that? Of course.

So the working memorandum was initially introduced by Badly and Hitch. So essentially what we look to do within If we talk specifically about stress-based eating once again Or any type of overeating habit Is that we will tend to operate in an automatic state Our thoughts and feelings usually have led to us self Getting into that fight or flight stance

We're very much overthinking And then our first instances I'm going for food It is that high plastic food That's my safety mechanism That's what's going to bring me out of this that's what you just do. You've reinforced that probably decades realistically to a certain degree.

So our main thing is kind of like, okay, especially when we're looking to a lot of neurological research now, that's kind of realistically taking a lot of prominence. It's been really reinforced. It's been strengthened. It's the thing you do. It's the automatic. We want to take you out of that automatic state. We want to bring you in from the subconscious into the conscious.

And when you're then at that conscious mind, you then become, was essentially the conductor. He's the top of that kind of working memory model period. He's the person that, or she is the individual who takes control. They are the person that makes a decision. And when you're in a conscious state, you're allowed to, you know, draw back on your long-term memory. You know, it gives you the opportunity to actually think about everything that's kind of happened. It gives you the opportunity to think about, okay, what options have I got available to me? If I'm going to resort to food, what has that previously done to me?

You know, how have I previously felt on the back end? what have been the consequences of it. It's not just thinking, okay, who is this actually, you know, how has this affected me? But also who else is this affected in life? You know, having a real kind of deep understanding and it allows us to touch upon our inner eye and our inner voice. So our inner voice would give us the opportunity to essentially talk to ourselves. So it's asking certain questions to ourselves where, okay, I'm in a stress state. That's essentially how I'm feeling. I really fancy a chocolate bar right now. That is what I want to go for. not sure a chocolate bar, a whole snack drawer.

You know, is this something that I'm doing in terms of self-love or is this going to be self-sabotage? You know, in an hour's time after completing this action, you know, after having the chocolate, am I going to be proud of what I've done? Is this going to be something that is very much aligned to my goals? Is this the most important thing for me right now? Asking these other questions is going to be super important

to then remunerate and take that decision for the conductor to be like, okay, this is what we're going to go do. So it's taking that control. control. And the way that we can ultimately do this is we need a certain instance where we can get ourselves from that subconscious into the conscious. So one of the key things that is why I've personally used the working memory model kind of as my underlying basis. The why is that it's focuses on the five key sensors, which is really great off my head because I always forget one no matter what. But essentially in some way or shape or form it is using the senses, it allows you

the opportunity they then work on that inner eye or the inner voice these are the two things that are going to lead you to be into that conscious state to begin with so if we just can easily run through an example each of these for instance so um the inner eye um the inner eye show site so that's going to optimize the inner eye on anything else so if i'm working with a client and this type of individual i will recommend them to print off a picture of a loved one or so or the reason why you know typically speaking it's going to be like their daughter or someone like that. It's someone of huge significance to give them that reason why. So they can, you know, if they're out and about, open their wallet up,

there's a picture of the most important person in the world. The inner eye kind of looks at it. The reason we get to print it off as well because of the digitalisation of the world, photos on our phone are great, but they're realistically we're seeing for more data now. It's just losing that impact. It's losing that emotional touch. When we go to print something off, it has that far more significant. you've put that little bit more effort into printing it.

You know what's there. It's going to draw more emotion out. So we've seen more for it now that physical photos actually helped de-stress in the first instance. And then also through utilising the inner eye and having that as a significant person or significant reason why they're on this health journey, it gives them like, holy shit,

this is why I'm doing it type moment. It allows them to come out of that circle they're out of that automatic state. And it's that thing they've caught themselves when they catch themselves, that's when they can ask those kind of questions that I just went over before. That's when they can realistically be the conductor moving forward. And what about the other, what about the other senses then? The other senses, so it's run for release.

Touch, touch is one that will operate a little bit more than a voice. So I always use the example of a hairband or an elastic band, for instance, quick little snap we can essentially use off there. I always like to think about it. Just imagine like you were going for a walk. if you're in a state of file flight, you were going to go walk to the corner shop or walk to a fast food place, you know, if you had a bug that stung you or bit you throughout the way, that's essentially what you'd focus.

You'd lose all attention on that. You'd focus on that straight away. You know, sorry, I wanted to share with you this. It's a little story. So I was living in Bali for a little while and I was really like stressed and like emotionally drained and not knowing what I wanted to do with my, with myself and with my life. and I used to go over to there was like a little like adoption place where you could sit there and you could just pet the cats and the dogs and stuff like that.

My nervous systems went, you know, perfectly even there. Then all right, back to work. That's actually a class thing to be honest. We need more places like this. Like give me a puppy or something like that. But yeah, I think that's a really good one where it's like just snaps you back into reality, back into the conscious as you put it. Yeah, it is essentially just the click little snap.

all your attention goes from there. It goes off of that initial thought, that automatic thought of, I'm going to go for food, go straight onto that. No matter how many times you do that, ripping a hairband on your wrist, stings.

No matter what, you don't get used to it. So yeah, go to know that, side, touch, taste. Taste is a difficult one. There's not many things we can do here, but I always recommend gum or anything else.

Usually ones that have menthol in them as well. because they have that kind of clear breathway attachment as a result. So if you're just take that same situation, you're just walking down the street, you're going to go for food. If you put a bit of menthol gum in there, it opens your airways up.

So I think we've all had it before we were walking down. It just takes like a little gust of wind and then prick wear in. You feel it in the chest. It catches you off. It's not normal. It's a feeling. Would brush in your teeth do a similar thing?

or mouthwash because let's say if you were at home and you didn't have Vetchung gums? Yeah, it would be a it would be a similar thing because obviously the sensation would be

you know, different to norm. It's just trying to obviously use it in a way where I think mouthwash would be more effective. Yeah. Just because it's a lot easier.

I think when you add additional steps in that's when it becomes a little bit more difficult to then incorporate. Yeah, because you're not, you're not, if you're not thinking rationally as well,

it's, you need it to be kind of instant. Yeah. Yeah. And then what's the other one probably sound? Smell and sound. So yeah, these will do the two examples I typically will go towards a work in a similar vein for this. So for sound, it would be using headphones. Everybody carries headphones of them nowadays.

So it's quite a very simple opportunity to be able to put some in, listen to music. I'd recommend usually with a client to create a playlist. were for music that means something to them. So it's not just like any odd song they enjoy. It's something that actually has a bit of impact, a bit of meaning to them. It could be their first dance song, something like that. Something of real significance.

So just playing that, it's going to allow them to evoke that kind of memory, bring the rest, de-stress. We all, like, for every, I think, majority of, like, relationships have, like, their song. That's a great opportunity to bring because it brings that kind of person. It reminds you of the person that realistically means the most to you.

And the same can be used with smell. So with smell, I would typically recommend like a perfume or a cologne, for instance, something along those lines. Or that typically used for like a certain event, like a big event, could be a wedding, could be something you just use once every year for a certain event. Something that's not smelled every single day. You know, if you just use your regular, like, links Africa deodorant, it's not going to catch you off guard.

It's not going to have the same impact if it's something that you use regularly because you've desensitized to it. Precisely. So if it is something that is a little bit more meaning behind it and it's just you're not, you're going to get caught off guard by it, there's the opportunity to catch yourself. That makes sense. That makes real good sense. And it doesn't have to be our five of these senses.

It can literally just be one to. Literally one. Yeah. Yeah. Supercept. Whatever one works easier. So I think in most of the. instances, I will usually use, like, touch first, for instance.

Because I think it's the easiest to implement, and it's something you can have on you all the time without thinking about it. Yeah, makes sense. In your view, what does our culture completely misunderstand when it comes to stressy and or emotionally? What do you think the culture kind of gets wrong or misinterprets or misunderstands? That realistically is like a lack of willpower. I think one than anything else

I think there's a lot of kind of self-blame that comes from overreaching of that you know is that perception of I was doing so well but then my willpower caved in and I I don't often think it is often related to willpower

most of the time because of it and you know a lot of the what we talked about today it typically just goes over people says they don't even consider it that's kind of I think more than anything the key thing that is really to really underpins it it is just people will put more self-blame upon

themselves where I think an issue like this is that it's nothing of the individual sport it is just what is reinforced it is their norm and you know we look at like the elasticity of the brain it's hard to change behaviours it is very hard to change behaviours and it's understanding that the brain wants to reverse it back to the automatic. If this is something that's been reinforced for a long time and I think it's becoming

more prevalent now in society in that it's not essentially your fault but it is something that can be worked on. I was in London back in 2020 and I was listening to Ben Carpenter do a talk and he made a really good point that always stuck with me I thought it was great just to kind of give people

a visualization to that point and it was like he had a picture of a lot of people on the beach back in the 1960s or the 1950s and it's you know you know today's society in an obeseogenic environment and you know he pointed out that you know these people in this picture you know it's not like they had willpower and now you know the human civilisations willpower has just disappeared it's like the same amount of willpower back in the 1950s versus right now it's just we live in a completely different society where you know food is an abundance

Oh, precisely that. It's never been easier to get hands of food. Yeah. What have your clients taught you about stress? Like, question, like, have they helped you to feel more human, you know, like, things that you didn't expect when you started coaching? because from a personal level myself like if I didn't get into coaching I wouldn't understand half of the issues

or struggles that people face with now that I have become aware from just like working with a wide variety of different people and I don't think I'd be as empathetic maybe Yeah I think I'd take a stimulus stance to yourself with that where working with so many people

people are so many different backgrounds and how they've grown up and what their current situations like, especially when it comes to the fact is that I don't, obviously, attribute to my own life where obviously I have not got children or anything like that. So whilst I felt like I have a good baseline understanding, I just, I can't empathise on that at that same level because I don't have that. But obviously, working through them and to be able to have years of experience working alongside of I just more and more get to actually understand and know what their type of struggles and what the stress is that come come from it and it gives you a newfound appreciation I guess as well

for what people go through in everyday life and it's also you know like I said to the start you know perception is everything realistically you know what one person sees as you know as a stress the other person doesn't um you know I could sit back and then to be like you know I have to do this, this and this in life, why can't you? You know, it's very easy. I think coaches can be very susceptible to that kind of mindset where it's not easy for me, you know, so you should be able to do it.

But everybody's life's different. Yeah, I think that's something that you see a lot on social media. It's like people giving out advice being like, you know, the influencer with the chiseled abs who's, you know, running on the street, you know, pretending to be the next David Goggins telling you how he's got up at 4 o'clock in the morning and like, you know, expressing, you know, this isn't easy for me, but I get up and do it anyway. Even deep down, they actually love doing it. They probably love exercise. And therefore now they're like,

they're pushing that perception on everyone else. It's like, well, if I can do it, you can do it as well. Or, you know, if you're not doing it, but I'm doing it, that makes me, you know, morally superior to you. And, you know, I want to express that, which I don't think they understand that that's what they're doing, but that is what they're doing. Yeah, I mean, the point you put there is like most. personal trainers love exercise, whereas most normal individuals kind of, I think it's very overt seeing exercise as punishment through what like PE lessons taught you. Yeah.

You know, for instance, some like running, for instance, running was used as a punishment in PE. So trying to get into running, especially like myself getting into running over the past few years, I've always told myself I hate it. I am beginning to love it the more I've appreciated, but my love for it or my hate for it when I was younger, you know, that that's always had that attachment because it was a punishment. Makes sense. And that's why it's really, that's actually the perfect example of it's,

it's not about the, the thing, whatever it is. It's about your approach or your mindset to the thing. It's like something can be, it doesn't matter what it is. It can be, it's good or bad depending on how you perceive it to be.

Precisely. Speaking of stress eating, and speaking of reducing stress and using that to help improve the quality of a person's life, bringing that question back to you because, you know, you know, you work for yourself. You know, I'm sure you have lots of stresses throughout the day. I'm sure you have things that have gone on your life that have made some days harder than other days. So like what anchors you when life feels a little bit chaotic?

Like what are your kind of strategies to help yourself stay, you know, keep your stress levels down so, you know, you can perform day to days, so to speak? for me it's finding avenues that I can essentially I like to think of it as kind of like escapism from everyday life that is my I guess grounding to everything within stressors within life for me in particular it is exercise I know obviously we discussed how exercise can be a special thing but I also did mention how it's a good form of stress because there are so many great hormones that come from it

and obviously it's fantastic for not just your physical health but it is fantastic for your mental health as well. I did a post yesterday or the day before as well, discussing, you know, speaking of vulnerability as well, how my mental health was not great this exact time last year. You know, for myself as a full-time coach, self-employed, I was also a carer at the time. You know, I was experiencing carer's burnout.

I wasn't able to go to the gym, for instance, during that time. the significant impact that has on me is profound. You know, being able to go out for walks, for instance, that has a huge part for me. You know, I can see a huge shift in my mental health from, as it's really as this house getting above, like, 10,000 steps, and so getting below 10,000 steps, there's a huge shift to just being outside and being in the environment,

being at peace with myself within that. You know, that's my own personal ability. It is finding what that is for someone. So now for me, I will actively, you know, I'm a very routine person. I will have everything scheduled up, all lined up perfectly. I know what's happening when. My first protocol is, okay, where's my off time coming from? That's the first thing I put in before absolutely anything,

because I am the type of person that I will put everything and everyone else above me, and I will just get on with it and thinking there's more important people that need my time and energy right now. if I don't look after myself, I can't look after them. And that's always the key there. I think that's such a powerful thing. And like it's, it sounds simple, but it's again,

like the team of this conversation, it sounds simple, but simple advice isn't always easy to implement and putting yourself first or putting in time for yourself first and things that are going to recharge your batteries. You know, that's so vital for you to be able to sustain

whatever type of work that you're doing. And my last question for you, Nathan, and then I'll let you go. So what's a true you've come to wish everyone else knew about coaching that you can't or you don't learn in let's say a PT

course or something like that. What's one truth you found to be true that you wish most people knew as coaches? God, that's a great question. There's so many different avenues you can take off that. I think we're obviously like

kind of like PT courses and general qualifications that are kind of out there, the one thing I wish people at least recognize that there is there's more to it than just kind of like gym form and gym execution. And yes, the gym plays a big role in that exercise plays a huge role in everyone's life, but there is so much more around it. I wish kind of the education kind of surrounding it in terms of nutrition, but also just day-to-day lifestyle, mental health and mindset, there's so many different assets where,

realistically, there should be at least minimum modules in these type of courses that go through this in a lot more detail, rather than having to search for additional qualifications and having to do this on top, there should be kind of comprised and packaged within that because if you can rise the quality up of that from general PTs, then everyone's going to benefit off it, realistically. So that would be the key thing

I think, well, anything that coaches in general PTs could do it is just to research more, keep learning, always look for these different avenues, don't just be so dead set. I'm like, okay, I've done my level three. I know how to help someone for that pull down. I can change their life.

You know, there is so much more to it and yeah, never stop learning. Yeah, I love that. And, you know, that's the reason I call myself the uneducated PT is because when I first left my PT course and I got my qualification. I was like, yes, I know what I'm doing now. I know how to help people. And then it's like the more you know, the more you realize you absolutely know nothing and the vast amount of, you know, things there is to learn or or like different situations

where you're always going to think you have the answer to it and then, you know, get that door slammed on your face and realize that, oh, you know, I'm a lot more ignorant than I believe myself to be when it comes to this topic. yeah 110% realistically now and where can people go to find out more about the work that you do um oh my throat is good enough you can just say the least um yeah to find out more for myself if uh in terms of um at coaching or just generally following information uh find me on instagram ticotop youtube all those good social media sites at coach by kevall spell my surname k-d-e-v-l because nobody can spell it. And yeah, all the information is going to be found there.

Nate, well, make sure we have everything in the show notes for people to find out what you're doing. I really enjoy, I really enjoy the work that you do. I think you're insightful, you're empathetic. You know, you are really, really careful in how you approach your coaching. And I think, you know, a lot of people could benefit from listening more to the message that you bring across. So listen, thank you for your time today. I really appreciate it. appreciate it. Yeah, man, thank you so much for having me on. It's been a pleasure.