The Uneducated PT Podcast - Ep77 – Chris Stone: Men's Body Image, Real Resilience & Calling Out the Fitness Industry

Episode Date: April 29, 2025

Ep77 – Chris Stone: Men's Body Image, Real Resilience & Calling Out the Fitness Industry In this powerful episode of The Uneducated PT Podcast, I sit down with men's resilience coach Chris Stone for a raw and wide-ranging conversation. We dive into the complex world of men’s body image, the rise of muscle dysmorphia, and the often superficial way society tells men to "open up." Chris unpacks why real compassion means more than just surface-level check-ins, and how our current systems often fail men at every level — from mental health to media messaging. We also explore how to speak the language of kids and teens, the hypocrisy of the fitness industry preaching health while promoting insecurity, and what it really takes to build resilient men in today's world. If you care about mental health, masculinity, or just cutting through the noise — this one’s a must-listen.Chris's IG

Hello and welcome to the uneducated PT podcast with me, your host, Carlo Rourke. The goal of this podcast is to bring on interest and knowledgeable people from all walks of life, learn a little something from each conversation and for you, the listener, just learn something from each episode. So don't forget to subscribe to the channel, press the box below, show some support and I'll see you on the next episode. Chris, welcome to the podcast. Can you just explain to the listeners a little bit about the work that you're currently doing?

Hi, Carl, thanks very much for having me. Yeah, I am a men's coach, so I focus particularly on helping men with their improving their mental health. Although the way that I communicate that, I maybe don't explicitly talk about mental health as, you know, from the outset. But yeah, that's the goal. My background is sport and exercise. So I was a personal trainer for too long. And then sort of transitioned more into more health-based coaching. how did that transition occur what what what was what's the backstory there that

made you decide to go from someone who was a personal trainer helping people with their physical health to kind of go into this more niche topic yeah it's a it's a there's a lot of different factors I guess I'll try and keep it fairly brief but yeah I I've always loved health and fitness so it wasn't really a surprise to me that ended up going down the route of personal training. In the early years, I was, you know, super passionate about fitness and trying to learn as much as I possibly could about, you know, strength training and then kind of learning tools and techniques. I could use this in my own training and with my clients and that sort of thing. And I really loved that, of course, but I think what started to happen was, yeah, a couple

of things. My own experience, so I was, I was really struggling with my mental health in the in those early years of being a personal trainer. And then I actually started working with a client who was having very, very similar challenges to me in terms of their mental health. And that started to kind of generate a few thoughts around exercise. Because at that point, I was thinking, you know, exercise is all about just trying to improve your body, your strength, your health in general. But actually, I started to realize that the conversations I was having with this individual, were actually contributing to improvements in their health as well. So that was a bit of an eye-opener,

and that encouraged me to start talking about stuff. And then I began to sort of broaden the horizons when I thought about health as on a whole. Instead of it just being about exercise, it started to become a lot more broad. And the other component would definitely have to be, I think as the years have gone on, I've become more and more frustrated with some of the messages

and some of the things that really go on. in the fitness industry. It's kind of wearing you down, you know, over time just seeing things on, particularly on social media, where it's, you know, all about trying to, like, optimize certain exercises. I'm not saying there's anything wrong necessarily with these types of content, but I just think, or as I kind of aged, I kind of thought, this isn't really that helpful for someone who is trying to improve their help.

Maybe if you're at the top end, if you're an athlete and you really need to, like, eke out every, every ounce that you can. can at your training them potentially. But yeah, just seeing some of those messages. And then actually also I did have to, not have to, I chose to work with some clients as well who'd had some pretty horrendous experiences working with coaches who'd put them on, you know,

highly restrictive diets that had impacted their relationship with food and impacted the, you know, things like their self-esteem and self-confidence. I had a few of them who did like transformational pictures. And again, I'm not bashing those at, like, if that's your thing, that's your thing. But for them, they would talk about how they were in this face value in incredible shape, but actually under the surface, they felt worse than ever, not just physically feeling fatigued and exhausted all the time,

but mentally just not doing well in the slightest. So to sum it all up, it's basically that I see the fitness industry to be potentially more about the appearance of health, rather than health itself, if that makes it. That makes perfect sense. And you know what? It's like I would come from the same similar sense. It's like a lot of people get into the fitness industry or get into train and or get into exercise in the pursuit of health.

And then they end up engaged in unhealthy behaviours in order to get the thing that they wanted, whether that was from them or from messaging from the fitness industry or even from their coach. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's just the other challenge that I think the fitness injury faces at the moment and maybe has done for a long time is just a general lack of regulation. And I don't want to bore you too much about talking about regulation and, you know,

my thoughts on that. But it is important to highlight that personal trainers, you know, you can become a personal trainer within the space of a few weeks or months. You know, you can do it online. You can pay for it. you don't need to, you know, my experience of going through the personal training qualification was that it wasn't, it maybe prepared you for like some very basic understanding of like anatomy and, you know, training and things like that. But it didn't really go any further than that. You know, you didn't learn about how to communicate with your client or really understand what they were saying to you and what to do in certain situations if clients come to you with certain problems. It was more about here's how you periodize it and here's the fire exit and make sure you've got a safety plan and stuff like that. But yeah, once you've got that qualification,

you can really do whatever the fuck you want, to be honest. And some people, some, I'm not saying all, I do think it's a minority, but some people do take advantage of that, I feel. And it can have a pretty detrimental impact on others. So there's a lack of regulation. No one's checking in on you. So unfortunately, people can use that to their own advantage.

Yeah, and I suppose the people that do take advantage of that are usually people that have extreme messages and that kind of tracks a lot of people. Whereas like if you're trying to have a nuanced conversation of why maybe you might not use a transformation photo or why you might use it or you know, why, you know, there is no bad exercise. It's just, you know, what's going to be more beneficial for you? Like, they're the kind of conversations that aren't quite sexy and don't really draw the attention to the people that probably need it the most.

Yeah. I also do want to highlight. I'm aware as I'm talking that I do, it does sound very negative. Like I've got a very negative outlook on the fitness industry, but I wouldn't say that is the case. Like I know I've worked alongside loads of PTs and none of them are, none of them that I really think of are that way inclined. It is, I would say, a minority. People who are going to fitness are generally there because they want to help people. So I don't want to paint with a broad brush and convey this idea that the, fitness industry is fucked and you know you shouldn't use a personal trainer because they'll fuck you up or whatever but I think it is important to be aware that there there are some

people out there who might who have the potential to do a little more damage than good well that's that's my experience as well like my experience is most trainers that I know are they don't want to do harm and a lot of them like you know try to develop as much as they can to be able to give out the best possible advice and knowledge to their clients and stuff like that. But again, like you said, even if it's a small minority of these kind of trainers who, you know, probably have toxic messaging, they, again, they end up being the loudest voices in the industry and speaking to the largest audiences, which obviously isn't helpful. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there are, as you say, if you kind of tap into certain messages, you do kind of gain popularity. But unfortunately, those messages are not always the most helpful. And I think for me, the most frustrating thing, or one of the most frustrating things for me when I think about my sort of personal training career and business, because it was something that I was really, really hoping would kind of gather a bit of momentum was I switched my perspective and kind of who it was I was working with.

when I start my business. So in the early stages, I was kind of the sort of jack of all trades sort of PT. And, you know, I'd help you rehab an injury or build muscle or get strong or lose body fat. Whatever it was, I could do that for you, you know,

probably quite ineffective at that stage, but it's all part of the process of it. But then I got to that point, as I say, where I was kind of broadening my horizons a little and realizing that health is a lot more, exercise is a lot more than just something for the physical, you know,

And I knew and I'd witnessed in myself and clients that had worked with the benefit of exercise on your mental health. So I sort of rebranded myself as a wellbeing PT and I was really trying to push this message off, you know, exercise for your mental health. And, you know, I don't want to downplay the work that I did do because I know I was able to have a, the work that I did had an impact on people and encouraged those who were struggling with things like anxiety and depression to exercise, which. they probably wouldn't have done if it wasn't, you know, if there wasn't me waiting in the gym there for them, the thought of doing it themselves was like a no-go. So I was very fortunate to have that opportunity to help those individuals.

But what I found was I was butting up against this sort of aesthetics message all the time. And someone once said to me, and it really stuck with me, it's like, you know, if someone's looking for a personal trainer and they're scrolling through social media and they see this very visual demonstration

of a before and afterfoam. It's a very eye-catching. And they scroll down and they just see you or a client talking about how I have helped them to exercise through and improve their mental health. It's more than likely that people who are looking for a personal trainer are going to go for the one that catches their eye rather than just hearing about how, yeah, this person helped me with their exercise, help me exercise and benefit my mental health. So I did really try and push that message, but I found that it was.

there was a lot of resistance there, I would say, on the whole. But that doesn't stop me. And in the work that I still do, I definitely incorporate things like strength training into that. Yeah. It's a lot harder to market real health than it is. Aesthetics. Yes.

Yeah, definitely. And I suppose that the people then who end up needing your help the most are the ones probably who got burnt by that process, whether by themselves or with a coach it's like they continue to chase after aesthetics, how they looked, get the six pack, starve themselves, spend every waking hour in the gym,

you know, neglecting relationships neglecting having a life, neglecting, you know, enjoying social, you know, the social aspect of life. And, you know, they probably achieved everything they wanted in terms of, you know, losing weight or getting a six pack or whatever it is.

and then found they were still deeply unhappy. Yeah, I mean, it's so often the story, isn't it? It's uncanny the amount of times I've seen a personal trainer put up a post along the lines of, you know, the one pictures of them who, you know, ripped and the other pictures of them, maybe, you know, still in good shape, but not absolutely shredded. And the sort of caption along the lines off, like, which picture do you think, you know, I was more happy in? And, you know, it's always the one where they're not absolutely shredded.

and it makes sense because for the vast majority of people, unless you have some crazy ass genetics, that's unsustainable. Like, it's not realistic to maintain that sort of physique the whole time. So therefore, it shouldn't be a surprise that, you know, that they feel that way when their body's in that sort of condition. But then you have, as I say, that problem where that physique is seen as the pinnacle and everyone's kind of chasing it.

But actually, as you've seen as you've, quite rightly highlighted when you reach that pinnacle you realize like yeah this is i feel miserable do you think uh that this is going to become more more prevalent uh even in the younger generation of boys coming up who have kind of grown up in a social media world and like we know that muscle dysmorphia is on the rise and that you know i like people in like 17 year old and 18 year olds in skill kind of you know flicking through instagram seeing like you know people who are absolutely like incredible physiques absolutely jacked probably right into the gills perfect light and perfect everything um you know make the action heroes of 20 years ago look like absolute like weeds basically

like they're getting kind of manipulated with this perception that this is actually what i'm supposed to look like and that's going to be a very um hard reality for a lot of a lot of young boys and men to live up to that and to face. Yeah, I don't know how they can't be impacted by that. You know, I'm in my 30s and I feel impacted by that. And I kind of grew up with still with like dial up connection and that sort of thing. There wasn't Instagram and Facebook until, yeah, I don't know, early 2000s or what have you. When it first came on the scene and it's obviously not what it was.

It's not what it, back then, it's not what it is now, you know, it wasn't exposed to maybe that sort of content where, you know, I'm seeing these really impressive looking physiques on the daily, basically. I'm not being exposed to that sort of. There's this trend going on at the moment where people are posting, like, what a realistic physique looks like after X number years of training, and it's, you know, the guy wearing not very much and just kind of doing a wee circle. on. I've seen a number of these videos pop up and I've looked at the comments and I'm just like, this is unbelievable. I'm saying I've seen it as well. Like just like a personal trainer who's in like decent shape as well

getting absolutely rinsed. Ripped. Absolutely ripped. And it's yeah, some of the comments about like oh this guy doesn't know how to train and it just it's so infuriating in many ways because and it's and because it's just this unrealistic expectation of what's actually manageable. So I'm seeing it in people's responses. And yeah, there's no doubt in my mind that that has to be having an impact on the younger generation in terms of what they think is achievable. And then you have to bring into question, like, how does that impact their sense of self-worth and self-esteem? Because it's, there's a lot of it is tied to, for me, there's still an element of my self-esteem and self-worth

is tied to my appearance. I don't think that's unnatural. I don't think it should be necessarily the case. And I think there's a level where it can become unhealthy. But yeah, I do wonder how much of the younger generation's self-esteem and self-worth is tied to how they look. And I do think, unfortunately, social media has played a huge role in that. Yeah, I think definitely men's body image issues is definitely continuing to go on the rise. I think the trend's shoulder.

and I think there's going to be a big conversation to be able to kind of have these open discussions to young men who, you know, I suppose the perception throughout the years was that, you know, women suffer with body image issues, men don't. Yeah, and on that note, it makes it a difficult topic to actually bring up because if you do then it is kind of seen as sort of feminine. It's not very a masculine thing to talk about body image

explicitly and but it is a real issue and you do need to talk about it and I guess the other concern that you have then is in the in the pursuit of attaining this kind of physique like what do do a lot of young men get to the point and think well if I need to attain this then I need to consider taking performance enhancing drugs in some sort and you know the impact that that may also have on their overall health again it's just coming back to this appearance of health rather than health I love that appearance of health rather than health itself. It's very, very true. Why men in particular?

What made you so passionate about a nicheing into men in particular rather than, let's say, mental health for the general public? Yeah, so I guess this might be quite a long answer. Again, I said last time, I'll try and keep it brief. I carried on. No worry, this is why we do long-form content because we want the nuance. Okay, right. Well, here we go. Here we go. Strap in. My year for a while. Yeah, so my upbringing was, on face value, my upbringing was good. You know, if you looked at my family from the outside and, you know, it was a very loving, safe environment. And I'm not to, there are great things that, or positive things that happened to me in my childhood. But there were, and that no child escapes childhood unscathed. Everyone has some kind of, There is some kind of lingering impact from your upbringing. And I won't go necessarily into the details of it.

But I took these sort of these incidents and these traumas with me as I went into my. And when I moved out and went down to Edinburgh to study for uni. And I was totally unaware at that stage of the impact of these things. Actually, at that point I would have dismissed mental health entirely. I didn't think it was actually real. I think talking about like trauma and that, it'd be like, well, no, that's not relevant to me at all either. And just through the way I've been brought up

and also, obviously, society and stereotypes play a big role in this as well. I'd kind of got this impression that I needed to be this very fiercely independent man who kind of had his shit together and dealt with everything themselves and didn't need, definitely didn't talk about like, his emotions or his feelings or whatever. Like the only emotion that was acceptable to me was like anger. Like I can be angry. That's okay.

But everything else like, yeah, that's not acceptable. So, yeah, I kind of lived in this way for my whole life, I guess, up into the point about 20. Let's see, what age would have been? 20 years old. And I was at uni and I finished uni and then I moved. home very briefly. That's when actually when I did my personal training qualification came back down to

Edinburgh. But in this period of time, things had, like, it seemed that year on year things were getting worse. It was unbelievable. It was like, I don't feel like there's any further I can go here. Like, I am at the lowest possible point. And then the next year it would feel like, oh, okay, no,

that's the lowest I can go. And it just kept happening year on, year on year. And I couldn't really understand why that was happening to me either. So, I was in this place where, like I said, I was very angry. I didn't really, I was very confused. I had no idea what the fuck was going on in some ways. And, yeah, I was just all over the place.

I was acting in ways that were strange in some ways and detrimental to me and to others around me as well. Quite destructive in many ways to relationships. So, yeah, I was at this place where things were very chaotic. And I eventually ended up having a conversation with a friend. And they expressed in that conversation that they could understand what I was going through because they had gone through something similar. Now, as I'm talking through this, I'm aware I might be coming across a little jumble. And it's because I actually struggled to remember a lot about my life in this period of time.

And this isn't something that's, this is something that's quite common for people who have had mental health struggles. and experience trauma is that they find it difficult to remember things and things are a little hazy and foggy so yeah I hope you'll forgive me if I'm jumping all over the place a little bit but I had this conversation and that just kind of it did a couple of things for me the first thing it did was like it made it okay just to to talk about stuff and that was something that I always thought like it's not okay for a man to talk and this was a male friend talking to me and I was like oh right this is this doesn't go against my sort of ideas this goes directly against my ideas about talking about things was this a close friend or just

someone that you were in college with or I would say it wasn't necessarily an extremely close friend to be honest but in in some ways it made it easier for me to talk to this person because that's where I was getting that from yeah it's funny because when I think back like I had my sister's great like she's an amazing person and she's an amazing person and she obviously recognised signs of me that things weren't all okay and she had asked me questions in the past but I didn't want to talk to her about it because she was really close to me and I didn't want to impact her. I didn't want to be a burden. I didn't want to scare her. But then when this individual came to me and obviously I think being male was also a big factor in it as well and they

were more disconnected from the situation. It made it a hundred times more easier to actually talk about stuff. So yeah, that's, that was the first thing. The second thing was it just helped me feel like I wasn't like a freak in nature, right? I wasn't unique in my struggles. Like, here's someone who's experienced pretty much exactly the same thing as, as I have, and they're a man as well. And like, they get it. So that was, yeah, that was really powerful that conversation. Just like, I didn't say much. I was just kind of hearing their story. And I was like, all right, okay, with these new sort of understanding is in place. It kind of allowed me to to start seeking help. So I ended up going to the doctors and

I got some medication and stuff like that. And I think often people think once you do that, things get better. Now, I would say for a while things stabilized and then, and this is, and again, I want to caveat this with, I need to be very careful here. I was switched medications and because I sort of reached a point where things had stabilized to a degree but they weren't getting better any further so they decided to try me on a different antidepressant and when they did that it actually had the adverse effect and that it actually took me to a worse place

and I was I was very suicidal at this point I had a lot of suicidal ideation and some self-harming behaviours as well I would say that that had been existing for a wee while but having switched medication it almost exacerbated those but yeah like I say I want to be careful and say that if it wasn't for antidepressants I don't think I would necessarily be here right now because they did in the long term help to give me space to take action but these it's something to be aware of as well as that not all they can

some medications are maybe more effective for some people and others and it's just something and you're not giving anyone advice on whether it's the right or wrong decision to take antidepressants it's just your personal story

of what was working and then stopped working for you and I think that's important for people to know when they're listening yeah 100% I wouldn't want to discourage or encourage either way I think it's a very personal a personal choice

and my experience like I say on the whole it was it was very positive it was just unfortunate that this change actually seemed to worsen things for a period of time. So much so that I remember after I'd started going to some counselling. I wasn't particularly engaged in it at this point. I didn't find it particularly helpful, partly because I don't think I was in the right sort of place to kind of accept that support at that point. But I remember after a session, the counsellor said to me that you need to go to see your doctor right now, basically.

So I did that and then got switched back on to the previous medication. Sorry, I realize this is super long, but yeah, I am getting there slowly. And yeah, the medication again kind of stabilised things out. And I was one of these people that I was very, from the outside looking, and it was very difficult to see what was going on with me. Like a few people had recognised things. my sister, but she was very sort of informed around, like, mental health and things like suicide risk and stuff like that. But for the vast majority of people, they weren't aware what was going on

at all. And because I was a man, I was in this place off, like, I don't really want to talk. Nobody was really on side and knew what was happening with me. Slowly, I started sharing a bit more with people just kind of testing the waters. And that was helpful to an extent. But the big change for me, And I think this ties in with a lot of the stuff that I see from you and your content on social media and what you push in terms of your own philosophy. And I think it's amazing. I went to Canada and America in summer of 2018 for like three months, just a break from what I was doing just to experience a different culture. I was working there as a football coach for kids camps and stuff like that. But it wasn't really about the job. It was more about just like I say, experiencing the culture. And I did some cool stuff. And my favorite. thing of all was I hired a motorbike and I did a wee motorbike trip down in the deep south which was really interesting but there was

an expectation that came with the role that we were staying in the houses of parents of some of the kids that were coming to the camps basically and we were there for the whole week and sometimes we were there with other coaches as well so these people would put us up and there was an expectation that

we would hang out with this family and the kids and that sort of thing and the other coaches too to really get to know them and make them feel, you know, like, valued and what have you, and just have fun with them, I guess. And I was dreading this part of the job because for years I'd just isolated myself. My daily habit was get up, go to work, work as long as possible to keep myself out of my head, and then get home and go straight to my room.

And I had done that for days on days and years and years. So this was actually a bit daunting for me to go and be around people all the time. And in the early stages, I was finding it very, very difficult. But actually, by the time the three months had passed, I felt totally different. Like, just that interaction. And it was initially a very forced interaction. But then it started to become a bit more natural. And it was definitely that social connection that I would be missing.

that really helped me in terms of my mental health. And when I came back, I had a sort of new perspective on what I needed to do to kind of keep myself mentally well. Because I came back in a totally different headspace. I was able to come off the antidepressants that I was taking. And that's not the end of the story. I would still say I wasn't doing particularly well,

but in the grand scheme of things, much better than where I was. and then consequently years the years that followed I've done a lot of therapy and stuff like that to kind of get myself to the point now where I do feel the happiest and healthiest I've ever been but the social connection side

was just massive and kickstarting that process definitely do you think that you kind of recognise that straight away or is that just something that you realise now on you know a reflection of looking back that's a good question I would say I probably it's probably only in reflection

that I've realised that yeah again like I said earlier the memories and recollections are a bit hazy but yeah I think it would only be in retrospect that when I consider that experience that I realised that the social side

was a huge component that I was just totally missing. And I don't blame myself for that. Obviously, when I was in that, I was in that headspace, I was just surviving. That's what I had to do to survive. And that was okay. But yeah, that was a massive component. And I'm coming to that realization has then helped me not just take more ownership of the social side personally, but when it comes to the work that I do as well, it's also an important factor like I'm trying to encourage people to consider that social connection because it's just something that's not talked about enough when it comes to health and fitness. No, and I'm the same as well. It was only in reflection of my own life that like at the times

when I felt most at peace with myself or most content and then it's like at the time you don't really recognise it. You're just like kind of living your life. And then when you, when you think back it was like oh that was and and sometimes you i think a lot of the time we can kind of try and narrow it down to one thing oh i was happy back then because i was doing x or i was happy back then because i looked like this or i was happy back then because i weighed this amount and then a lot of people don't take into consideration you know i was happiest back then because i had this job where i was really close with my co-workers or uh you know i was living a home with my family and we were all together or you know I was living out on the estate and I was

seeing my friends daily or I was in school and I had my classmates that I would see every day and I was really close to them or or whatever it is I was you know playing football and I had my teammates and like a lot of the time I don't think when we're living our daily lives we understand the impact of of being involved in in some sort of a community we we don't we don't we don't recognize how powerful that is for our health. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I do also highlight, I think it's also important to consider the quality of the connection

because when I think about when I was really, really struggling, I was involved with things like a football team, and I did have a group of friends, but when I consider the sort of level of depth and conversation and the vulnerability, that just wasn't there. And, you know, sometimes you feel people talk about, like, how they'll go and spend time with friends and they'll come away feeling more lonely than ever.

And that was me for such a long time. I hated going to social events because I knew the after effect of it was one of loneliness, like feeling even more lonely and isolated. And I realized now it wasn't, it was primarily down to the fact that the relationships I had were very surface level. they didn't actually they weren't built necessarily on trust and and mutuality and vulnerability and without those things in place I don't know necessarily if it would have the same amount of impact I'm not saying you know hanging around with people and interacting is is important I think the research shows that like interacting with people regardless of sort of the depth of the or the quality of the relationship is important it can have a positive impact but I do think it's it's even more important we consider the quality of the the friendships and relationships that we have. have. Yeah. Well, I think that's essentially what loneliness is. It's like the disconnect between the quantity of relationships versus the quality of them relationships. Like I've known to myself.

I remember being in a nightclub before surrounded by people and I was like, I feel, I feel isolated here. I feel lonely and walking out at the nightclub and being like, I don't want that in my life. And like you even hear it all the time and like people that, you know, move to big cities and stuff like that, they're surrounded by people and yet they feel lonely because. the quality of relationships isn't there. And I think you touched on a really good word there as well as vulnerability. I think that when you feel connected to people, there is an element of you're able to be vulnerable around them,

which I think is really important. And I think that's what, like, when you're building some sort of a community, like it's your men's community or the community that I have, people being able to have more than just kind of serve. Like I understand that, like you, for you to, like, Craig, connections with people, you have to start with interactions. Like you can't have an in-depth conversation with somebody if you're, if you can't like if you don't bypass them or interact with them in some

degree. So interactions are important as well. But hopefully them interactions then lead to good quality connections with people. And, you know, I think that's our role as well as as held coaches to to facilitate places where people can connect, whether that's in a gym, whether that's, like on a group coaching call, whether that's, you know, bringing people out for a hike or, you know, whatever, whatever it is, like giving people the opportunities to connect, you know, it's not always going to happen. Like, you know, you can, you can try and have an open conversation with someone and they might be a little bit shut off. They might be a little bit of standoffish. They might be a little bit cold that day. So, like, it's a, it is a really difficult, it's a difficult thing for

people to pursue especially people who are lonely and who are looking for social connection. Like it can be a really difficult thing, especially nowadays when nobody's even looking up for their phones to have a conversation with a stranger. But I think if we can create places where we can facilitate these conversations for people to actually have these in-depth conversations, that's going to be really powerful. Just like that company basically facilitated you to forcibly, you know, getting the conversations with people and even when it's really uncomfortable

at the start once you start to have that kind of open dialogue you realise that oh you know I can actually have a proper conversation with this person and I actually feel safe and seen and heard and you know we need that yeah yeah absolutely

I couldn't agree more I realise that I've kind of I've kind of given you a bit of story and kind of explained how the social side and stuff had a big impact, but I've not actually answered your original question, which was why do I focus on men and helping them with their mental health? And it's just to say that that's, it comes from my own experience, basically, and realizing that, you know, I'm not the only guy out there who feels like that. In fact, I would say there's hundreds of guys around me who, who, in the city, even, who are, who are in that

same place who don't feel like, who do feel isolated, who don't feel like they've got the support who are confused about what's going on in their head, who may be a little bit more resistant to the messages around mental health and getting support for that.

Yeah, I kind of, when I think about who is I try to help, I think about what I used to be like and try and model the sort of messaging and the coaching service that I offer and some aspects of the coaching that I offer

to cater towards like the younger version of me who was like I say in this head space to really try and get them out. Can I ask a question what do you think the younger version of you would have actually listened to?

It's funny you should ask that because I I've spent the last oh sorry there's me smashed my microphone I've spent last, let's see, what are we now? It's nearly me. I've spent the last three months trying to get back into my old frame of mind. Like I keep referring to, I find it difficult in some ways because I can't necessarily

remember everything and my whole experience. But I realized that the messaging that I put out up to this point has all been good messaging. there's no doubt that it's been it's been the intention and the messaging generally is a positive one and it's and uh but i realize that it's it's ostracized younger me basically and and men who are in that same situation because i know fine well that if i used even the term mental health even if i used that term not i would immediately shut down and then i realized that you know if I go back to my content messaging over the last number of years, it more reflects my current me than younger me.

It reflects my perspective and my understanding now, which is about empathy and compassion and self-care. And, you know, I know fine well that younger me, if you talk to me about like self-care and self-compassion, I'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about? This is the paradox, isn't it? It's like you have to become self-aware to be a, able to

almost heal or whatever terminology you want to do but then the minute you do that and then it's you're it's very difficult to speak to your younger self because you're kind of you know you've transitioned that's exactly it

yeah it's really hard to try and get back into that frame of mind so I've kind of taken time to explore that and really try and get back in my old head almost and I've even got on my on my PC here I've got like a we know which is I've termed like the strong men glossary and it's basically like substitutions for certain

words so that I'm I'm avoiding like to say things I use the example there of compassion or like even something like values like if someone said oh you know let's work on your values I'm shut the fuck so like I'm changing that to like core convictions like that's a really easy switch that sounds, okay, cool, convictions, that sounds like something I could, I could look into and get more on board with. I will say, like, when I started this process of considering the language that I'm using around mental health, I did feel a bit conflicted because on one hand, I don't want to perpetuate stereotypes or stigma. I don't want to, I want to do my part to kind of break down stigma. And I feel, I felt in some ways that by making, you know, by making, you know,

these substitutions and not maybe explicitly talking about mental health that I'm I'm not doing my bit if that makes sense I'm I am kind of you know perpetuating stigma or what have you but then on the other hand if I really want to help people which is ultimately why I do what I do then I need to get people through the door in the first place and maybe once they're there that's the opportunity to have a more in-depth conversation and and sort of begin to move towards that you talked about self-awareness and move towards it self-awareness and compassion and self-care and all, all the stuff that they

would be resistant to potentially from the outset. So yeah, I think having that understanding of like, yeah, it's going to be off-putting in the early stage so I need to find a way to encourage men to engage in the first place before I can

then introduce those sorts of ideas. I think that's also an issue or a problem that society in general are struggling to deal with because, you know, like you said, it's a, like, if, if you're trying to help young men who aren't really self-aware or don't have any emotional intelligence and stuff like that, like, you need to dangle the carrot of something that they're actually going to be drawn to rather than, like, you know, as much as we can agree with the, with the messaging

that's being put out by society, like that men need to talk and stuff like that, it doesn't really capture the attention of men. yeah yeah that's exactly yeah it's I watch a lot of these these campaigns and again I'm not having a go here because I realize the intention is always good but there's a lot of campaigns encouraging men to talk and things like that and you know great that that's that's fine

but it's not using the kind of terms that that men would necessarily relate to and therefore why would they engage with that so yeah yeah you're spot there's a great detain man on line and he has a great thing where he goes, we tell men to talk, but then as a society, he failed to listen and I always thought about that.

Like, that's, that's so spot on. It's like, it's a good slogan. It's a good campaign. It's a good mental health campaign. But is it actually really, like, it's surface level at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah, totally is. And I think, so I've had a conversation just last week on the podcast,

where it was, I was chatting to a psychologist. Pete Olusoga, and he was talking about how, yeah, we've got all these societal structures in place. But actually, in order to help guys get to the point where they feel that they can talk about what's going on, maybe we need to start talking about those societal structures first. And once we've done that, then that might help men get to the point of reaching out for help or what have you. Yeah, I think looking at the systemic kind of things that are men are facing is going to be a lot more beneficial. and like I think that's where like a lot of kind of

like the Andrew Tate messages and all like that kind of works really well for for young men because they're like oh yeah I want to make money I want to be big and muscular I want all these things and you know then turns into a fecum pyramid scheme or whatever it does but like I don't see a reason why we why like you know people who have good intentions to help men

you know, improve their quality of life. Like, there's no reason why you can't tap into men wanting to be strong, but also, you know, having emotional resilience and emotional intelligence and like that. It's like,

you know, dangle the carer, give them, give them what they want and, you know, sprinkle in what they actually need. Yeah. And you've tapped on,

tapped into the, the entertainment messaging and language there. And I think, so I wrote an email about this a while ago about how, you know, what I've learned from Andrew Tate, it was obviously a bit tongue and cheek, but the main point was actually, yeah, his messaging is firm, it's clear, it does, as you've identified it, it does actually tap into a lot of what men want. So therefore, it's not a surprise that he has, you know, amassed quite a following. And that's what I've

seen. It was like, in terms of my, my language and, you know, how we approach helping men. it's a difficult one once again because I want to be balanced and nuanced and I don't want to be so hard line to be like this is what you have to do you know I want to be able like you know explore and figure out what works for you and that sort of stuff and that ultimately is my a lot of my coaching philosophy is just to think to facilitate people and not understanding what works best for them but you know that messaging from you know it doesn't necessarily resonate with with men so yeah it's almost it's almost it's almost like you're we're trying to do the the same thing but with different uh intentions so like he's

going to capture their attention with then his own kind of selfish selfish interests and behind that whereas we're trying to capture their attention and then have the intention of actually you know providing providing them with the tools and the skills and the help that they need yeah and that's the difficult part is definitely because as we've said he taps into sort of should masculine ideals and stereotypes, whereas we're not, we're kind of going the opposite direction and trying to maybe rethink what we understand men or masculinity to be in to a certain degree. So there's definitely a disadvantage that we have in that sense, because it's easier for him to tap into those pre-existing ideals and stereotypes, whereas, yeah, we're having to try and

challenge them, which is, yeah, difficult. If you could describe kind of the, the man that you were. were before all this versus kind of how you see yourself now as a man, what would you say? So I think if you had asked me this question a few years ago, I would have said that the younger me was actually quite pathetic and, you know, trying to be alpha and all this sort of shit. And, you know, like I say, just pathetic, to be honest. but this is where the sort of compassion comes in is now that when I look back at myself

I do see myself with a lot of sympathy and I understand like I didn't choose that path I didn't choose to believe these messages I didn't this was all things these were all messages that were imprinted on me and there was an expectation that was set for me that wasn't of my choosing

so now yeah I look back at my younger self with a lot of that compassion. And yeah, it's, he, back then he was obviously, I was very, I was struggling a lot in terms of like self-esteem, self-confidence, but you would never know because it was just that facade, whereas I would say now that self-esteem and self-confidence is real. It's actually there. And it's just been, it's been such a valuable journey. Like I've often said this in that, although I would never want to go back to where I was,

I wouldn't change it. No chance in hell would I change it because if I hadn't experienced those things, I wouldn't have the insight that I have around mental health and masculinity and the impact of the imprinting or programming almost. And to have experienced that hardship and then have come through the other side of it, like that, I don't think you can pay for an experience quite like that.

you can't get that sort of knowledge out of a textbook or what have you. It has to be an experiential thing. So, yeah, I'm grateful that younger me persisted and kept going, despite the shit that he was going through, to now get me to this point where, yeah, I'm, like I said, the happiest and happiest and healthiest I've ever been at any point in my life. But I also realize that there's still further for me to go. And I'm enjoying that process.

It's not like a slog. I like learning new things about myself or learning new things. I've got a keen interest in psychology, and I'm constantly listening to the psychology in Seattle podcast. Highly recommend it if you want to check it out at some point. It's just, yeah, I find human behavior and that sort of thing just fascinating. I'll be interested to see where I end up in five years, ten years from now. Compassion is, I think, the appropriate word, isn't it?

I don't think you can, you can change your circumstances until, until you're able to kind of give yourself that. Like, I see it a lot with people who have, like, poor relationships with food and, you know, stung by diet culture in that perspective and stuff like that. And, you know, trying to, or people that are suffering with bingy and stuff like that, showing yourself compassion and learning the lessons rather than just, you know, you know, trying to punish yourself or guilt yourself in the change, I think. It's a very tricky and difficult thing to do because you think if you give yourself compassion, it's like, oh, if I let myself off the lead or whatever it is or off the whip, then, you know, I'll just spiral worse and worse and worse. It's funny you should say that because I was about to see that I, so I run last year,

I ran what's called the build program and it was a group-based train program. where we're doing a mix of gym work, but we're also doing like group coaching calls and discussing certain topics and that sort of thing. One of the topics was, I just was the idea of self-compassion. And that is exactly what one of the participants said was like, when I think self-compassionate,

I'm basically just let myself off the hook. And it was just a reminder that, yeah, like these messages that we, most men have inherited are, you have to be tough on yourself. Like, tough love is the way to go. like you know if you make a mistake you've got to to show that discipline and get yourself in line and that sort of thing and it's there's no room to be just a fucking human being who fucks up sometimes and you know sometimes it's not even about fucking up it's it's sometimes just yeah it's it's the biggest um help i think in in speaking about self-compassion with with men was helping them understand that compassion isn't always just a soft gentle thing either because i think when they considers compassion. That's what they think and the

and I know what again, younger me would have thought of saying that, you know, self-compassion is this very feminine thing and it's soft and gentle and but there is that fierce compassion where sometimes you do have to consider your circumstances and maybe give yourself a kick up the ask because that is actually

the compassionate thing to do in the situation. So just kind of reframing it and helping them grasp fully what compassion actually is is definitely a big help. Yeah. I think I probably had that perception as well only a couple of years ago. But what I realized was like, oh, self-compassion could be going and getting the workout done. Self-compassion could be going out and getting to run.

Self-compassion could be getting up at 6am to do the work or whatever that is. But self-compassion is also, you know, oh, it doesn't have to be the perfect workout. You know, you've been, you've had a long week. You've had stress in your life or self-compassion. You could be, okay, you got up an hour later because, you know, you are fatigued or whatever it is. And that allows you, that gives you the grace to continue to, you know, push forward and whatever that pursue is without feeling like you're, you know, you have this person, you know, on your shoulder every hour of the day, just giving you absolute grief. Yeah, that's definitely not a fun place to be. No, no.

You also touched on a podcast there and that was one of the questions that I was going to ask you, like, was, you know, all this kind of self-awareness and, you know, this pursuit of knowing yourself better or to be able to understand yourself a little bit better like was there was there mentors in your life books that you read at different podcasts life events like what do you think were some of the key things that that shifted shifted your path towards what you're doing now yeah um so i've touched on already the psychology in seattle podcast and and And that for me, it's just, it just goes into, there's a lot of episodes where people just messaging their questions and a lot of questions are, you know, things that I'm interested in or I've experienced myself. And just hearing someone explain what's going on and rationalise it and make it normal because I think a lot of the stuff that I felt like I was struggling with in quotation marks was actually just normal, a normal human experience. So, yeah, I think that the podcast,

the psychology in Seattle, I definitely recommend. The other book that has been transformational for me has been No Bad Parts by Dick Schwartz. And this is, he's the founder of internal family systems there. I'm not going to fully, I'm not going to try and explain exactly what it is because I probably can't do justice. But the book started off by helping me understand that the body is, and I'm there for protection. Like, I, my body is wired to protect

myself at all times. And over time, through experiences, I have developed these parts of me that are, that believe they're protecting myself, but actually are maybe causing harm or causing problems. And the book just, like I said, I cannot do it justice, but it just goes into that in a bit more depth and it seems absolutely bizarre to say but some of the therapeutic exercises has you start to talk to these parts of you and I for probably the space about a year every I wouldn't say it was every morning maybe every second morning I would go and go for a walk down the park no distractions no phone no nothing and I would have these conversations with myself which I like I say I know it sounds absolutely bizarre and just to help me get to know a lot of these parts

and where they've come from. And doing that, like for, like I say, the course, over the course of a year, help me identify a number of different protective parts. And once I was able to identify these protective parts, you can understand, firstly, why they're there, and what it is they're trying to protect you from. And when you do that, you realize that a lot of these fears

and protections are actually in place, but they're not, there's nothing to fear, basically. there's no danger but it's just um yeah it's just formed for because of an early childhood experience more often than not yeah and once you've understood those things it's easier to start working with these parts and getting them to step back and yeah i like i say i'm not due that justice but i would highly recommend it um i would say i know that you know as with a personal trainer you have different modalities and you know you might have 10 pts write you a program they'll write 10 different programs and with therapy and therapeutic

approaches it's the same there's loads of different modalities and therapies and this one just seemed to hit home for me like in terms of my own life experience and what have you it just seemed to align perfectly so you can have a read it might not work it might not be the thing for you but for me it was just so powerful i i would be definitely fascinated with that i i kind of love all that stuff and especially coming from like uh starting off maybe my uh you know fitness and nutrition side of things and i was you know diving into things like trauma responses to obesity and like there's always this famous study

that I always reference where it's like young women who were sexually abused when they were younger like I don't I'm just paraphrasing now but I think it was like they're 50% more likely to end up with chronic obesity when they're older and what they end up doing

is they're basically trying to desexualize themselves from predators by putting on weight. So I think the study itself is called like a fat, fat armor or something like that. And it goes to show even if something like is a destructive behavior, like overeating food to the point where, you know, you're chronically sick and it's probably killing you. Like, even behind these destructive behaviors, there is a purpose that your mind is trying

to serve and that is to protect you. and I think you can find that across all destructive behaviour. So, yeah, I definitely resonate with that. Yeah, and that kind of takes us full circle back to the fitness industry. Again, some of my frustrations around it is we so often approach things like obesity with practical solutions. Like, have this high protein meal. It means you're not going to eat so much throughout the day. Or, you know, here's four tips for stopping binge eating at night times and stuff like that.

And for me, practical solutions, we're prescribing practical solutions for, emotional problems a lot of the time or mental challenges a lot of the time or those protective parts are coming into place so when we think about something like obesity it's it's very frustrated to see that sort of narrative about you know being at willpower and personal choice and that sort of stuff when actually if at a conscious and probably subconscious level there's there's so many other things going on that that potentially drive behaviours that then lead to things like obesity so yeah I know obviously every individual is completely different and you need to prescribe different kind of advice to different people, especially men.

But is there any kind of personal habits or non-negotiables that you've made in your life that have really kind of impacted your evolution and that, you know, could be decent advice for men listening to the podcast? I've never really thought about that. good question how would I maybe word this I would say it's a difficult one to answer because throughout the

different sort of phases of my life those habits and behaviours and outlooks have changed a lot you know I think when I think back to my 20s I was very much in the habit of being like like we're going to make sure we hit the gym four times a week you know I was a personal trainer back then

I spent my whole life basically in the gym. So four times in the week was not a big ask. Because that was what I needed to do in order to sort of keep my mental health and physical health obviously as well in good check. But I would say like as I've gone into my 30s, I've sort of reduced or relieved some of that pressure and that intensity. And again, this flies in the face off a lot of the fitness industry and the messaging there where it's about, you know,

You need to grind, you need to want it. And I resonated with that in my 20s, but as I've gone into my 30s, I've realized that, you know, no, I don't need to do that all the time. I don't need to be constantly grinding and pushing and pushing. So I would say it's more, for me, in my 30s, it's more about trying to establish a bit of balance

and consider what is it I actually need in this situation because it's not always hitting the gym. It's sometimes it is just crashing out on the couch with my wife and I'm watching some brain dead shit on the telly. And it's for me in my 30s, it's about trying to find a better balance. I wouldn't necessarily say I have specific habits or routines that I necessarily follow.

I would say the overriding theme though is one off. And this sounds a bit sexual, but it's not self-exploration it's not sexual honestly but if that's your thing then that's fine you know no it is about for me it is about trying to

to get to know myself better and to be able to to provide what I need in any given moment and you know that can that can vary from one day to the other last question I'll ask you what what do you think kind of brother

and male communities play in in this personal transformation that men want to undergo or need to undergo yeah for me it's massive I'm a bit of a science nerd to be honest

I like based on a lot of my approaches and and things on scientific theory so a question that I get a lot and I'm sure it's a question you've also got a lot it's like you know how can I stay motivated all the time like if only I was motivated all the time this would be much easier and I can't seem

to stay motivated. And there's that, the scientific theory of self-determination and it outlines three basic needs which is autonomy, competence and finally, and most importantly is relatedness. If we don't have relatedness, then we don't

necessarily have self-determination or motivation. So therefore, it plays such a huge role in men's health and fitness as well. So that's why I sort of transitioned from doing solely one-to-one coaching to establishing a group was because I realized that, you know, men are going to make much better progress if they have this brotherhood or community or however you want to phrase it.

If they've got guys who are around them to encourage them and push them on and keep them accountable as well, it will make such a massive, massive difference. There's also studies to show that when you're being perceived, so like when you're being watched, And let's say in a gym scenario, if you're bench pressing by yourself, you know, you'll work hard. But if you're surrounded by guys who are actually just observing you, you will actually potentially work harder. Never mind the encouragement and drive that you might get from others as well. So, yeah, if you want to make serious inroads with your health and fitness, I think it is just, it's an absolute game changer. If you can find that, that community to kind of, yeah, keep you going.

yeah i i completely agree chris where can people go to keep up with your work to find out what you do to even inquire about you know joining a community of men who you know helped to build each other up and and keep each other accountable yeah thanks um you can find me primarily i i'm on instagram at chris strongman and i post stuff occasionally it's i will say i've kind of stopped posting as much because my relationship with social media is a i love hate one definitely here's your is your friend so but yeah you find me on on social media and instagram is the primary way that i communicate stuff and you can also get check out my website at strongmen dot co dot UK you can find

a bit more info on the kind of the coaching programs that i run and um if you want to get in touch with me i would love to hear from you even if it's just to ask some questions or It doesn't have to be about coach, it's Chris at the strongmen.co.com. UK. All right. Chris, I appreciate you. I appreciate the work that you're doing. Thank you for today and thank you for this conversation.

Thanks so much for having me, Carl. I really appreciate it.