The Uneducated PT Podcast - Episode 99: From Bathroom Design to Fitness Empire

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

Episode 99: From Bathroom Design to Fitness Empire – Rachel Henley on Lifting, Life & Letting Go of 'Cringe' In this episode, I’m joined by none other than Rachel Henley — a coach, creator, and powerhouse in the fitness industry with a story that’s anything but ordinary. We dive deep into:Her journey from studying set and prop design at uni to building a business that’s helped thousands of women get strong AFHow battling panic disorder from age 6 shaped her mindset and relationship with movementThe phase where she went extreme with dieting — no carbs, no alcohol, clean eating — and how it led to anxiety instead of progressHer take on “skinny fat,” calorie maintenance, and why you don’t need to be perfect to get resultsAdvice for PTs trying to stand out online, including how she embraced being “cringe” to change her lifeBalancing travel and online coaching, building self-worth beyond social media numbers, and unlearning some big lessons in fitness & business🔥 Whether you're a coach, a client, or someone trying to find their lane — this one’s packed with honest takeaways and real talk.

Rachel, welcome to the podcast. You went to uni to study set and prop design. And now you're one of the biggest fitness names in the industry. So how did that happen? Oh, I didn't know that you were going to drop that as the first thing. But yeah, so I've, well, I've always been into sport and training. And that's been a massive cornerstone of my life, literally since I was, since I was tiny. I used to play a lot of football

my ACLs retired me I would have gone pro if it weren't for my knees but I also just like loved art and creating stuff and I had the choice of going more artistic or more sporty and people told me I should go sporty because that's what I was better at

I don't like being told what to do so I went artie with no like obviously career direction after that frickin' hell like there's no nothing apart from your art And so I went and I studied that at uni. And then I got, I did actually get some creative jobs out of uni. So I went and I worked at a few theatres.

I was building like I was the welder for sets. No way. It's stupid job. It sounds fun, but you're literally just in a dark room for like 14 hours welding. Not great. I did it for like two weeks. I was like, this is awful. Slave labour, get me out.

So I left that. And then I actually went to design bathrooms, specifically bathroom. I wasn't good enough for kitchens or anything else. It was just a very, very expensive bathroom showroom, most expensive shitters in the world, honestly. I did that for around three years. And as that was going on, as soon as I got into that job,

like, I was like, well, it's a nice, stable job, this is what you're meant to do out of uni. And I just, I just didn't enjoy it. I didn't enjoy the nine to five. I didn't enjoy working for someone. I didn't really, I just didn't vibe with designing bathrooms, really, weirdly, it just didn't connect with the soul that much. So I always love training.

By that point, I had blasted my ACLs into smoothrooms, and I had to kind of do different forms of training to tickle my tits, really, and I just got really into weight training. I kind of did it a little bit before, but it was when I was like 20-ish, I full-cent it went like, this is amazing, I feel amazing, I just want to lift heavy stuff all the time, and kind of just got a bit obsessed of it. And then when I, as I say, when I blew up my knees,

I couldn't even train my lower body. I was like, I'm going to learn everything that it needs to learn about this. And this is whilst I'll still work in my bathroom job. And I just did it out of passion. Like I didn't actually intend to be a PT or a coach at that point. I just really nerded out for my own, like, muscle building kind of desires and those sorts of things. And then when it got to the point was like, oh, my God, I started this first job. And I hate it.

Like, I hate it. It was just the thing that was obvious staring at me in the face. So I actually started off by getting qualified as a nutritionist. And then I actually worked with helping fighters make work. weight. That was my first nutrition job. No way. Which is quite cool. Yeah, one of my bodies was a UFC fighter. And he was like, I saw him running on a treadmill

with a bin bag the day before his fight. And I was like, I've just studied this and that's bad. That's really bad. So I was like, do you mind if I like help prep your next fight? And he did really well. And then so I ended up doing yet a couple people there. And then after that, I actually got qualified as the PT. So I became qualified as PT a bit later. And then, yeah, I

went to hand in my notice just before COVID hit. literally I had it written. I was about to land it. And then it was like, oh, by the way, you're furloughed. And everything's shutting down for four, four, five months. So it all kind of like stars aligned. And I just used that time where I got like, obviously, paid to be off work for like five months.

And so at that point, I just built the business. I did loads of, I did like the classic Zoom workout. So people just watching me squats. So you just saw everyone's packages go up and down. Six months. And I was like, yeah, this is what I want to do with my life. This is my call. And so, yeah, so I did that before.

like six months did it for free for that whole time so I was like I'm getting paid anyway amount as well just give like as much out for free as possible started getting into a bit of content creation at that time so that was all like 2020 and then yeah I think I lasted about a month when I came back and then I was like I went back to my old job and then I was like I can't do this I had I think like three paying clients that are paying me I think £100 a month I was living out of my parent like I wasn't living my parents that time I was having to make rent and stuff but I was like I managed to save a bit through COVID so fuck it I can't I can't do this anymore. So I full sent it then and yeah, it's that that was for five years ago now,

or five and a half years ago. So that's been a yeah, the journey. It's been quite a journey, but we got there. Do you think that kind of starting off during COVID and stuff like that had really kind of pushed you then to to dabble into the kind of online space because you're almost forced at that stage then? Yeah. So I did still when I like left my job, I did I did actually go into a gym and PT space in a gym as well. Yeah. But, I actually started like I just felt I connected really well with online especially as a lot of the stuff that I, although I talk a lot about weight training, that is a lot of what my content is. As soon as someone comes into the coaching, as most PTs know, it's 90% nutrition, mindset, behavior change.

And honestly, I think that's the bit that I'm actually a lot better at. I just find it's not as fun to create content with it because people are just a bit with dumps to fire. It gets a bit deep and I'm like, I just want to say a few funny jokes with lifting some weights and that's all I want to do. So it's one where it's like, when they come into the coach and they do that. So it's one where, yeah, I did go into face-to-face PT, but where I've built the systems online over that time and started to kind of find my feet with that, honestly. it was about like nine months I lasted and then I bugged off travelling after a bit of a mental

breakdown and so at that point it's something I've got to go online again so that's when I went completely online around that time so the like end of 2021 I think was really my last in-person PT session yeah yeah you spoke on travelling there I absolutely love the stories that you tell and how you tell them online about your kind of travel adventures they're just so they're so so so good and like like I was I was I was I was I haven't traveled now in the last two, three years, but like I did like South East Asia and South American and all that. And I absolutely loved it. I kind of wanted to ask you about that. I was going to go into that kind of later into the talk, into the podcast, but I might as well like touch on it now.

Because there's definitely a lot of kind of online coaches who probably listen to this and they're like, oh my God, to travel and to, you know, build a business online. Like that's the dream, you know, work from anywhere I want and stuff like that. Did you find when you were traveling, were you still kind of building the, because I don't really know your background story, but were you building the business while you were traveling or did that kind of take a step back? Because I know for me, like I was, I was still working online, but when I was traveling, but like I wasn't nearly as productive as obviously when you're kind of set put in the same place. So I was actually the opposite. Yeah, you were more productive. Well, I don't know if I was more productive, more insane and

delusional. I didn't have people around me. I was on my own, so I did some stupid shit, but that actually helped. So, yeah, because I was so. I was so. So I was an online coach for like, I want to say two, yeah, it was about two years between, yeah, from when I started to when I went traveling. And I think I had about like 20 clients. I was making very generic online content. I thought I was Aristotle, you know, the quotes and then the occasional meme. It was a, yeah, it was, you look back and cringing it now, but it was like, yeah,

it was just finding your footing, finding your voice. And I didn't really know, I was just posting what other coaches was posted. I managed to get a few clients from that. I think it was a little bit less competitive when I started. I don't know if I'll get any clients as far as posting that stuff these days. But I'm kind of doing that. And then, yeah, I, well, basically, I end like there was like a relationship that ended that was like seven years of my life. And it's just like I had a big, oh, shit, I don't know who I am kind of the moment.

I had to go find myself. That was my traveling thing. It was the typical, oh, I need to go find myself, which is when I got the one-way ticket to Vietnam. Like the first two months, I think my business almost crumbled. It almost, yeah. it genuinely like it's only because I had such good retention did I stay afloat and I think that's the cornerstone of all my business is that retention is always the thing that comes first. Luckily I think I had like two people drop off but I didn't have I don't think I had a single

lead for like lead. Oh, hey that word. Basically someone go can you help me for like seven months? Like there was like a period of time like from like before the breakup to when I went traveling. It was like I think when I sat down, it's been seven months since someone's DMs me. Are you all right? I was like, oh, God, what am I doing wrong? And I was like, at that point, I was like, I don't think I can do this. And then I just kind of like had a bit of a sit down with myself. Like I went to, so I was in Australia for a month and then I came home for Christmas. And then I went, I went back out to South East Asia after that.

And it was like, when I went back out, I was like, right, I'm going to do three months. I'm just going to lock in. And classic, like, bro thing. But I was just like, I'm just going to like make as much content as I can, really focus on coaching. Just make it my whole bloody personality, basically. and I was chatting out, I wasn't doing anything as insane as I see a lot of people do. I still only make him maybe like one video a day, but I just made it sure it was just a very good video as much as I could.

Some of them flop, some of them didn't. But it was at that time that I just like, that's when I got, I think I went from about 3,000 followers to like 100,000 followers over the space of six months or something. And then I came home and then that's when I built out a bit more of the services to hold the people that were asking for coaching. So I kind of filled up my coaching books whilst I was traveling. I was full as a coach at that point. I came back, hired a second coach, launched a group program.

That took things to the next level. And then instead of staying put, I bugged off to New Zealand. So I was living in the back of a car as the biggest, like, probably growth part of my business came in. I hired maybe like three coaches last I was out there. I launched like a group program every eight weeks, kind of got those full. On hindsight, I don't really know how I did that. I was literally living in the back of a car. And then I was like doing like the live calls.

Like, oh, I've got an hour charge of my last. laptop. So I'm just going to do this now and just like, I've got to make it through an hour. And so I was doing that in like some random campsite. I hope I've got enough signal to kind of get me through that. So yeah, so that that happened and I came back, what, like last April. And yeah, to be fair, since then, it's, it's felt a lot. Stainly it is nicer. Yeah. I'm already looking at my next travels for next January. I've really booked like a three months thing. So it's one of those of like I'll still always have that as part of what I do. But yeah, I think it is something that I think it helps me get on my head. I travel solo. I think that's a big thing. It's like, I know it sounds bad. I don't travel to connect with people. I just love nature. I love sitting in a mountain and looking at it.

And that's pretty. I'm out of my head. And it's just a place where I find a lot of clarity. So I think that's why it works well for me. But yeah, I've definitely known people to have the complete opposite of like businesses falling apart because you go, oh, I've got an online business now. I can now like travel here there and everywhere. And I was like, I think you have to be a certain level of mental to be editing videos on sleeper buses to be taken. I know like Zoom calls in the middle of the campsite when there's a screaming kid that you're trying not to throw into the lake

like like yeah I think you have to be a certain level delusional to do that but do you know what I also love about it and I thought about this as I was reading I think I was reading one of your posts about like bringing a bunch of like 70 year old women like on a five day hike or something like that in New Zealand

it was a mountain bike trail it was terrifying there was an 84 I think she was 84 yeah she was iconic but she kept falling off and I was like be doing this you haven't got one more good hippie yet. I thought that was so good but what it

reminded me of as well and it actually made me a look at myself. I was like like the best storytelling is like you can't tell good stories if you don't actually go out and live your life like if you're just sitting at home in your box room on the computer or doing up fucking canvas slides or whatever it is like and you're not actually out living life like you can't then relate that you like if you've no stories to tell you can't relate that then to your audience who are actually wanting to listen to you and get advice from you but true good storytelling i think you have to go out and do them kind of crazy adventures to get that so do you think i could say that's h-marc i want to go to high pasigia for two weeks yeah you can you can put that out business i'll miss you there's no

personal game that's that's purely a business expense you know what i can i ask you how did how Did you, so you said about even, you know, like your content at the start wasn't like, obviously what it is now, it probably wouldn't make the business that it makes now. How did you find your voice? Because I actually wanted to, I have a quote from you that I really liked. It was like, if I hadn't embraced being cringe, I'd probably still be in my old job design and bathroom for close to minimum wage. Instead, I've built a business that's seen thousands of women getting strong as fuck using my program. Here's to owning your cringe and doing the thing anyway. Do you think that most people kind of get stuck in their heads and they're afraid of judgment

and that's why they don't really find their voice, especially online? Yeah, and I think especially coaches. I think more coaches real, and I definitely put myself in this book sometimes still to this day, talk to coaches more than they talk to people. Like, and I think that's, and that's where I think a lot of, I think there's the initial cringe of your mates scur and ribbon you on. Like I still get my, all my friends take the piss out of me, my good ones. They take the fists to my face.

the NAF ones, they probably said stuff at the start, never to my face. But it's like, it's like there's that level, I think that's when you're starting out. But when you're maybe a couple years in and you've kind of got over that initial week, I think, I think a lot of coaches, yeah, I still see coaches like really good coaches talking to coaches and just moaning about what other coaches are saying or using language that other coaches say because it's kind of you follow other coaches for inspiration. I don't think that's the worst thing in the world, but I think they come to a point where you can, you can just tell they're just like, that with the language you're using it's like it's so

foreign to someone that probably actually wants your help. And I think like people that that level of of cringe of like being scared of what another coach or a peer would say, I think that holds back coaches a lot more than worrying whether your partner's going to think you're a bit weird for talking front of the camera. I think most most coaches I see can get over that part or people that probably listen to this podcast. I think it's like yeah, it's using terminology that just your clients don't understand or you go in advance and you don't really need to. Like all my content that does really well. It's like you're doing an RDR, stick your ass there. or do something like that and it's like yeah it's not technical you have to have a technical understanding

to do the fun cute cues but you don't need to like do that oh i know everything or about you people will know that if you're talking in their language and i think that's where i say embracing that cringes people i think people struggle with that yeah that makes sense they're almost trying to impress their own peers rather than the people who are actually going to who need their help and will pay them yeah i don't think there's going to be a single bodybuilder that looks at my feed and goes I'm going to lie her. I was like, good. I wouldn't know what to do.

Do you have any advice for personal trainers who want to get better at content creation? Get the reps in. Yeah. And try not to look, I think as well, like try to broaden your definition of what successful content is. Like, similar to, I don't know if you can relate this to like a client, like the client achieving fatwops or something. It's like, they'll come to you be like, I need to see the scale go down. And you go, yeah, but why? Why do you need to say the scale go down?

What is it that it's on the other side of that? What other things could be happening alongside? And I think if you're starting content creation, you can go, I need to get this many views. I need to get this many followers. I need to get this many likes. And obviously, that's really easy for me to say sitting on my little throne,

what, like, how many followers I've got. But like, I didn't get those followers necessarily from chasing those followers. There's definitely a period I went a little bit like that. And it does help to have more followers. I won't lie. obviously if I wouldn't have this business if I didn't. But I think it's one of those of like the reason that those followers are converted to paying clients, which by the way is the more important thing.

I know loads of coaches that have built a big audience. They have still 40 clients and they can't scale beyond that. I think the differences with that is saying having that broader, well, what's successful content? Has it helped someone that day? Has it provided value? Has it shown what you can do? Has it built your authority?

Has it built a personal connection? Like you spoke about those stories. of like one of them is just me climbing up a mountain in Vietnam. Has someone like taken that and be like, oh, I'm going to follow her from it? No, probably not one person. I think I got like 500 unfollowes from a post like that. But the people that read that from start to finish go,

oh, that's jokes. I like that person a bit more because I know her more. And I think it's like you kind of got to be prepared to do those different types of content. Like as soon as your likes go down, like don't hide those likes. Like embrace some post aren't going to do as well. That's fine. It's not a problem. No one gives a shit.

Just like keep on putting it. yourself out there, I think is, yeah, one of the biggest bits of advice, I would say. Yeah, you've literally just answered one of the questions that I was going to ask you, because I was going to ask it, like, about them kind of, even, like, we talk about hidden metrics in weight loss, right? It's like, okay, yeah, you're focused on you wanted to lose weight, but what about all these other hidden metrics that you're not focusing on, like, you know, you're feeling better, you're more patient, you're in a better mood, all these things, and I was going to ask about, like, the hidden metrics of your content creation. And I was

actually going to ask, like, because obviously, what is it? I think, 736,000 people following it. Like, that's an insane amount of number. And then my question off the back of that, because I know that maybe other content creators would end up letting their kind of self-work get tied up in their Instagram grow. And that's similar to like a client

letting their self-work be tied in whether the scales has gone down or not. And how do you kind of navigate that? But I suppose you've really said it there as well in terms of, okay, like there's, there's there's otherwise to determine success from your content. Yeah, I do think it is hard to take yourself away from that number, though, especially when you've had those dopamine surges of like,

I think I had a post that got like 130,000 followers. And I'm not a robot. Sometimes they're those things they do impact you. I do try to detach myself as much as I can to both like, to be honest, both like the Instagram bit, but also like the monetary side. I'd attach myself from that about a year ago because I was like, that freaks me out. Yeah.

No, no, no, I can't be dealing with that. So it's one of those of like that, if I start looking at those things, I know it will take me away from why I started it and the impact that I actually want to have. So I think it's, it is one of those of it. It is easier said than done. But I think, yeah, if you have that strong, like broader view of like, these are different ways that my content can win. And I think like with that, again, like people talk about like mission statement.

I don't think I've got a mission statement. So to say, I've never done anything that deep. But I think I have a very clear idea of like, this is the impact I want my business to have. And I think because of that, it has made those other like numerical bits, like a byproduct more than, oh, that's where the worth is. So, yeah, I think if you can have a clear idea of what is you want to achieve from your content and it not just be get as many followers as possible, then you're probably going to be better than if you're. Yeah, I think, I think you're speaking at Sophie's event in Leeds. And I think there was a lovely little, like, a quote or saying, and it was like you want them to put a bar, and every woman's hands or something like that.

Yeah, get a barbell onto as many humans' hands as possible. Yeah, I thought that was really good. And actually, if we flip back to the kind of training and nutrition side of things and another quote from you that I really liked and probably goes back into the start of your fitness journey, and I was like, I took things to the extreme in desperation to make progress. I had a phase of no carbs, no alcohol, extreme, clean eating, fasting. you name it, I became obsessive and all it did was make me feel worse and anxious again.

You know, the complete opposite of how you should feel. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think a lot of people, when they start their fitness journey, they start off because they want to get healthier, but then they miss the forest for the trees and end up feeling worse. Oh, 100%. I think that's kind of my personality to a tea as well. I've got quite an obsessive personality sometimes. Therapies help me.

But like, yeah, I think like, because if I go back to like the root, of why I started training. Actually, the main reason I started weight training and going to the gym was actually because of my mental health anyway. So like growing up from the age of like six to 18, I had crippling anxiety and daily panic attacks. It was like, it was before mental health, I guess, was understood as much as it was.

And ADHD and women was understood as much as it is. And it's like, there was no reason for it. I just like there would be certain triggers and I'll be like, I took about a year off school in that time. And like there's a lot of that that kind of pin me back. And it was actually my therapist at that time when I was like, when I was I think like 14, 15. And she was like,

I think you need to do a bit more like structured exercise. I think it was just, there's some evidence around that and just like we can sign you off to go to like this local gym and start training. So that's what got me into training to begin with. And it honestly probably saved my life like over those two, three years, like having that structure, having that dopamine come from that.

And like I'll be training four or five times a week, not knowing what I was doing, but fucking about and having. fun and it just took a lot of that kind of, I guess, like brain pressure. Like I don't know how to describe it. It was like, it was pushing against my brain and when I could train consistently or take that away. And it was just something that at that time, it was just such an alleviation of that. But I think it's because I enjoyed that so much. And then obviously I saw some decent progress. I was like, oh, I'm starting to see some delts come in. Oh, I might want to see an ab. You go down

those rabbit holes. And then when you go down those rabbit holes, you then start like, yeah, I started going, oh, well, I could just do a bit more, a bit more. And it didn't happen over. night, it was just like, slowly it was just snowball into, okay, well, I don't need to take a rest day. Oh, I don't need to, I think the worst bit was when I stopped seasoning my food because I read somewhere that salt, like, made you fat or something. I was like, I literally, like, I was clueled. I was only like, I say that, I was probably about like 17. I didn't know better.

I don't, I don't think I'll pigeon myself as someone that had like an eating disorder. I just, I was just clueless. And because I was clueless, I was like, let's put a bandage over a bullet wound and do everything and like, not really understand anything. And then, yeah, it's like I just took things to those extremes. And because, yeah, then I was like training seven days a week, no days off. I was eating foods that were just like, I say nothing but clean. If I had any social interaction that involved pizza or something, I'll be getting cold sweats about it.

And it was like, I can't even remember my exact wake-up pool. But it just got to a point where I was like, what the fuck is this? This is awful. And it's like, I even have friends tried to call me out on it at the time. Like, God bless them. They're like, I'm still more closest friends now. and like Rachel, you're taking it too fast. I know I'm just a grind hard mindset.

I think it's just like, I just got to a point where I just felt, I think I just burnt out. I felt like I couldn't sustain it anymore. And then it was, yeah, it was actually around that was when my knees gave out. Because I remember that's when I started to become a lot more educated by it. So I was like forced to take a break. I think that actually probably that was the wake up call. Like I was like, no, you can't train because your knees don't work at the moment. So all or nothing, I won't do anything then.

But I did start to like research around stuff. and I started to learn a little bit more about, oh, this is how you feel your body. Calories are actually a thing. It's not out dieted science, like some personal bodybuilding.com said this one time. It's like I started like piecing these things together. And it's like, then I went back after like, I think about six months off of training. And then started going back into it. And I started to see way better progress.

It was way less hard. Where I had done it, where I made it so hard for myself. And I went back to training three, four days a week, being balanced with my nutrition and just doing the basic stuff, going for a daily walk. I was like, this is really pleasant. I really like this. And then I saw way better results. And then it was from that that I was like, oh shit, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's where the secret sources is just being consistent in those basics.

So, yeah, I think I definitely went through that journey. I think a lot of people do though, don't they go through that like, like loop-de-loop before they find the balance that works well for them. So basically what you're saying is blown out your knees was the best thing that could happen to you. Oh. Legit, I might have arthritis before I'm 30, but who gives shit? How did they blow out?

You must have played a lot of sport when you're younger, did you? Yeah, so I played football. And I would love to say, I would love to say I did something like a bicycle kick, goals. I just turned on a 3G pitch if my foot got stuck in the ground. Yeah, yeah. I wasn't even near the ball. I was just running. I was no longer running.

Rachel's down, Rachel's down. Nobody's looking at her. I remember, I do remember because I was not by where my manager was. And he literally just like dragged me off. the pitch because I didn't want to look because anyone that's done, this is a bit graphic, but anyone that's done ligament stuff, you don't want to look because you're like, I don't know what way my limbs face. And I don't want to look down. I just don't. And so I don't look. And then they're like, what's wrong with you? Why are you so dramatic? Because it just

looks so undramatic. And I, yeah, I actually was working at Tesco's at that point. I was the produce girl, stacking potatoes. It was like a three month's job I had after uni. And it was like, I came, I like, I walked home. It was like half an hour walk with a completely ruptured ACL. and I think I did my meniscus as well. And then I did my first day at Tesco's the next day. I got up at 4 a.m. to hobble down for an hour. And I stacked potatoes on one leg for seven hours and then went to A&E on the way home. And they're like, why have you done this?

What are you doing to yourself? So that obviously transitioned you into like, you know, focusing on, you know, strength training and fueling yourself and, you know, all these things which are really important. And I think that ties in really well to a really great post that you did on skinny fat, which is obviously something that a lot of people struggle with or feel uncomfortable. And, you know, you talked about how, like, you know, they're focusing on, you know, getting definition by diet and on loan. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, I think it's a really common mistake people make of, like, if they're looking to look more tone defined. And if you want to go deep about it, the bit underlying that feel good in their body. Because that's ultimately what they're trying to do. And I think that's, I always, whenever I'll coach people, I'm like, yeah, but why do you want to do that? And often it's to find confidence, find better quality of life. What are those things that are important that you value that are below that surface level of

like, I just want to have a bicep poke out or whatever it is that you might do. And I think like, yeah, from a physical standpoint, like definition is a combination of two things if you're thinking about just like taking the emotion out of it and just talking it blanketly of like well how do you see more muscle mass or see more defined a more defined body i guess it's having body fat low enough but also having muscle mass underneath that shows through now most people women especially haven't weight trained before they they've done maybe pilates great form of exercise not great for building muscle or they've done some burpees in the living room might have got a very baseline level of muscle mass but sorry to break your dreams it's not very good for building

muscle mass beyond like a big inner level. So they're coming into that environment of like, I want to get muscle definition, having never really touched a heavy weight. And then they're trying to diet their way to find a muscle that muscle that they've not built yet. And so from a physical standpoint, a lot of people that I work with quite often will benefit from having, if they're, if they're at a relatively lean starting point and if they're trying to diet, they're not going to build much muscle there because they haven't got like the energy source on their body that they can kind of do both at the same time. It's like, like, just fuck about, get strong. Feel good in yourself and like obviously build that muscle and you can kind of reduce the body fat later.

And I think then looking at that as like, I guess like a more emotional driven thing. So often people come in to work with me having spent their life dieting. Like they have spent their life trying to get small. They have spent their life trying to find abs. And they've done that by following clean eating by doing, oh, I've heard this exercise helps you find your abs. Let's do that. And it's like, yeah, we might be able to diet you first and find something of that or

those sorts of things. but is it actually helping what you actually want to feel? And again, sometimes we can, like, say, don't necessarily have to put them in a mass bulk because we're going to get them onto a bodybuilding stage in two years, but we can go, well, can we just fuel your body well? Can we just forget about fat loss for this for a second? Much easier said than done.

Much easier said than done. I wish I could go infiltrate people's brains and just turn that bit often. But, yeah, I know we can't always do it. But it's like, if we can just zoom out and look at this as a, so instead of looking at this as an eight-week thing that you're going to do, let's look at this as a two-year thing that you're going to do. Over the next 12 to 18 months, can we just get strong? Can we just move that brain into a place that isn't worrying about getting smaller? That is learning how to fuel your body. That is adding in more protein, adding in more fruits

and veggies, starting to like, I don't know, prioritize your sleep a little bit more, start to to understand your stress management a bit more. Like get yourself into a place, but you're actually being a nice and structured. And then when it gets the point in 18 months time, when you then go, well, I'm going to go into a fat loss phase, I guarantee it's going to be a shit tonne easier then then now physiologically because you have more muscle mass your high body mass you probably diet and a little bit high calories probably not drastically so but probably a little bit but then i think importantly mentally you're not coming from a point of restriction your whole life into another form of restriction and then you're just like i'm just tired of this it's like you would have had a

year or so i break and it'd be like oh actually like this is all right like anecdotally where i've been training like what 10 years i do run i do still i have a bit of an aesthetic focus i like looking jacks now and then not so much i want to do it all the time every three to four years. I go, oh, let's find a dealt, see if it's still there. And it's like, each time I do it, because I spend most of my time at maintenance, most of my time not really worrying about that stuff, it's so much easier to slide back into it, so I don't feel constantly drained.

Like, that diet fatigue isn't there. It just isn't. I was like, okay, I can get in and out and eight weeks and be good. And it doesn't feel awful. It doesn't feel damaging and disgusted. It feels like, yeah, I actually quite enjoy the process and just dialing it up for eight weeks and just prioritising that for a bit. Like, it's quite fun.

So I think, like, yeah, from mental and, and physical, there is that benefit to delaying it, delaying like the fat loss side of stuff. I would say the caveat of that is most people don't want to do it. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's what I was going to say. It's like the paradox is like if you stop focusing on the thing that you want, you'll probably get it in the long run,

but it's trying to get people to focus on not focusing on fat loss. And I don't think it helps either that you'll probably also have a subset of the fitness industry. who want to sell, you know, fat loss in six weeks, eight weeks, because it's easier to sell for them anyway. Oh, 100%. And like, yeah, because we have our group program. I know people come into that. It's got, like, we're going to, we call it Blitzher bits.

It's a wanky name. I know. Sat me in the face about it. It's okay. But it is like, it is an eight. And I'll say 90% of people come with fat loss. But what we always do is we get them in the first live call and be like, right, we're calling you're here now.

You pay them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As like we will run, like, sometimes it, like, they still want to run through a fat loss phase, but it's a non-negotiable. They do at least a week of maintenance for us. And often every single live call has a, okay, this is the first six weeks and we get in the buy and we're getting the motivation.

We're setting these things up because you've got motivation. Let's take advantage of it. Like, I think that's the other side of fitness industry that I guess I get a little bit straight at when people completely trash off those ideas to be like, oh, well, you can't do a six weeks challenge because it's just never going to help you. It's like, well, and if it's used well, and if you, like, a lot of coaches, I think, don't do group programs because they are scared of what other coaches will think. Having done a group program the last two years, we've got our best results from starting in the

group program. I won't kid you that the community is amazing. We have changed how we communicate through the eight weeks and we go, yeah, we are going to go through fat loss because I know that's what you want. That's what you're here for. So we're going to get that in. You're going to trust us. You're going to buy into us. Now you've done that. We're going to go through the really uncomfortable thing of making you eat more for parts of this process. And people end up staying for like a year in the group program and they do like a maintenance phase within the group program. So it's one where, yeah, like just treating your fitness as a six week fat loss thing, you're fucked. Treat it is like, that's the start of it, but you're going to do the bit after. Yeah, you might be right. Yeah. Like I,

I completely agree with you as well. Like I don't like when people like, oh, fat loss is a dirty word or weight loss is a dirty word or a six week fat loss phase is a dirty word. Like, it's not, but the, the medded or the process behind that obviously is really important. And even you touched on putting people into maintenance or you being in maintenance calories. And I think that's, I think you did a really great post on that as well. It was like, you know, because all we hear, odd lied, right, is like calorie deficit or sometimes calorie surplus, but no one ever talks about like calorie maintenance actually being a goal. Can you explain why like that is, that should be an important goal for people to maintain?

man honestly i think for like 95% of people those other five percent being athletes and fitness professionals or people that are dead keen on fitness like for 95% of people it's just where the diet to live is and that's what most of our people want to do is that they want to get to a body composition they feel comfortable and confident in that might be facilitated by fat loss for a lot of people just statistically that is and that's fine that's what we do but the bit that's like I say that maintenance bit afterwards, like pretty much formulaically, what we do with most of our clients is that we go through, right, we're going to increase your calories to maintenance. So you can understand what it is like to eat more food, but not gain more body fat.

Because most people think as soon as you eat a second over your calorie deficit, I'm going to gain all the way back. It's like, no, that's because you've yo-yo dieted for years. There's a middle ground that you've missed every single time. Let's spend some time there. So if they've been tracking food and like, we don't track calories of all of our clients, but a lot of them do, it might be like, well, let's track that. Or maybe if they haven't tracked calories, that might be a good time to actually give tracking a go because it's not under the umbrella of you've got to get your calories as low as possible. It's like, right, are we eating enough calories? Can we see, are we getting enough of X, Z?

You just kind of build that baseline understanding of like, this is where your body kind of sits quite well. You can do it intuitively as well, but I do think it's, you can use both tools. It depends on the person. And then after that point, like the goal for all of my clients, really, there's maybe one or two that I can think of that aren't the case, but they're performance athletes. but they're like, the goal for them is to not need my fitness power anymore. Like the goal is to be in a position where it's like your habits just kind of keep you in a good place most of the time. You might overshoot it because just the way that the world is built. Like, like there's, if you eat out because you have a social life, you're going to be having

calorie dense meals. Like sometimes you're going to be a bit more stentary because life gets in the way. Like there's going to be stuff that happens. But if you've got the tools to be most of the time, chilling at maintenance without having to think about it too much, like that's your autopilot mode. And then if it just puts you, you slightly above, you can run through an eight-week fat-loss phase every couple of years, which isn't that stressful because you've learnt all those tools. Like, I see that to be quite a realistic kind of place where people can be. And that's where we aim to get pretty much all our clients,

say, unless they're like a performance focus or they are someone that wants to do a photo shoot, which we don't get because, yeah, I just chat shit online. So obviously, yeah, I 100% agree with you. Like, maintenance very much is the place where it's like you're going to have the best quality of life and it's really important. You also did a great, or you do, I think you do many great posts on this of where you kind of give people

kind of clear instructions on how to be effective even with their training. Like whether you're in a deficit, maintenance or a surplus, like you're going to be, you're going to be weight training. Like that's just, that should be just a non-negotiable. I think it should be just a non-negotiable for everyone in the world forever. Like I, it should.

Yeah. But like for, for let's say the people who are listening, who are like, oh, well, this is great, but, like, I don't have much time. I, like, I can't be spending every single day in the gym and stuff like that. You know, obviously, you work with a lot of, like, busy moms and people who have, like, demanding jobs. And, you know, like, fitness isn't their entire life. It's just something that they want to use as a tool to improve the quality of their life. So how can people, you know, make the most out of the little time they have when they're in the gym?

because obviously, you know, with your programming and stuff like that, obviously you make it as efficient as effective as possible for people with little time in the gym. Yeah, so I'm going to break this answer into like two parts. One is a mindset part and the other is like physical, practical, this is what you can do. Because I think as a mindset part, I think one of the biggest barriers that people have to start is often they look too much at what they can't do rather than what they can do. And they don't embrace being imperfect. they will see people online training four times a week, two hours a time, or they'll think healthy eating is, oh, well, I couldn't ever give up chocolate. So you don't have to. It's like there's, there's so many things that can meet you where you're at. And that's often where your lifestyle change will happen. It's not where you're trying to get to. It's like, where are you now? And what are the few things we can look to improve on right now? Even if that is starting with one training session a week, even if this is starting by you just getting a daily walk in, that's 15 minutes with your kid. Like, you could, you could,

like with our coach and we help find that specifically but like don't sit on thinking well I can't do it because of all these other all these reasons I can't do it like find the thing that you can do and start there and so I say from mindset bit just shit off those barriers but then in terms of like physically like yeah I think a lot of our clients train from home and especially if you've got little ones like get them involved she'll weight trading they freaking love it sometimes like get a little pair of pink dumbbells and just get them like we have people like joining in with stuff like that you can do it like yeah you can do it there's lots of people way people do it people can do it's like a 20 minute workout at home or they do movement snacks through the day so they might do a set of squats in

the morning after breakfast they might do a set of deadlifts in like after lunch like personally i couldn't think of anything worse i just want to get it one and done but like some people find those like little five minutes snacks over the course they work quite well so you can be creative at home you can figure out ways to get it at home and then yeah in the gym you can program to make it so it's a bit more time efficient so quite often like a really useful tool with this is doing things like super sets is great like um for example if you're doing like an upper body workout you could do a back exercise pair that with a chest exercise rest a little bit repeat that three times and then you could do shoulders and arms again repeat that three times and like in 20 minutes if you push those sets hard

you keep your form good you like you kind of just get in put your headphones on get it done like you can get a decent amount done in 20 to 30 minutes. Do that a couple times a week. Like, you can definitely get to a position that you're seeing at least like a little bit of muscle growth. But worst case scenario, you're maintaining muscle mass. And I think, again, that is a really big one that I have with my clients is like, when it's something like, do it, I could only fit in one session. What's the point?

I was like, well, yeah, you're not going to become CBUB by doing one session a week. You're not going to build a freaking rig. you're going to be hitting like a two times body weight deadlift doing one session a week but one of the biggest issues people have from a health perspective after what the age of 30 is that you start to lose your muscle mass one session is enough if you're tickling all your muscles for a few sets and you're doing it hard you're doing it well is that that is enough to maintain muscle mass better than way better than not and if you can then like also like two or three sessions is better I'm not going to like I'm not going to like lie to you it is going to be better if you can get up to

two, three sessions. But what version of view is more likely to be able to build up to two or three sessions? The first version of view that has been like, well, I can't do any sessions, so I'm not going to do anything. You wait for the perfect time or the one that did it messy, that did it up imperfect, started with the one session. Because once you've done one session, that's ingrained, and you have maybe your Monday evening is when you do your one session or the one class that you do, whatever it is that you do. It's like it's so much easier to build the second one on that. It might take a couple of moments to do that, but it's like, it's like there's value before things get perfect. So much value before things get perfect. So embrace that. Icky.

bit where you're building. And the ripple effect of doing that one session a week is massive in terms of how you feel, you know, how you show up for yourself. You know, I feel good and therefore, well, you know what? Maybe I'm going to go for this meal rather than this meal. And like all, all them things start to happen as well. And it's so much more difficult to go from zero to one than it is from one to two or one to three, I think. Oh, yeah, 100%. Is it an object to motion stays in motion? Yeah. And yeah. And what I was also going to say on that was really, good point on like the supersets and stuff like that, especially if, I think, I think a lot of, a lot of clients that I used to work with anyway definitely came from like a background of like, you know, if they did train, it was like circuit training and it was just loads of crazy different exercises, like fucking jumping jacks into burpee into kettlebell swing or whatever it is. So like, let's say if they're in a gym environment now, like they find it really difficult to like, I'm going to sit there and rest for two, three minutes. seconds rest or more.

Yeah. The battles I've had. So you sit there and you rest. Really, really difficult for people. So like you are, you also are like it's, you're playing into, into their not their strengths, but you're, you're helping and giving them what they need and what they want as well, I think. Yeah, I think people will sometimes enjoy it as well. If they come from that background, like, like they might, it's almost like your goals have got

or align with the work that you're doing. It's like, yeah, like, really, actually talking out of it, don't you. Like, I love the style of bodybuilding training, but I want the outcomes of powerlifting. I hate powerlifting training because I get so fucking bored. Yeah. But I'm always, personally, I'm always fighting that battle of like,

I need to do one thing to the other. And then I always wonder, it's like, why have my deadlifted, like, not got stronger? It's like, oh, because I got bored after, I started seeing progress. I was like, oh, I'm going to go back to the, bodybuilding routes. And it's like, and it's like, that's fine. Like, I don't, it's like, for me, it's not that deep. But it's like, you can't expect one outcome when you're not doing the

processes that follow. So it's like, it's fine if you want to do circuit training. But if your goal is to maintain muscle mass and build muscle mass, it's like, you've got to have that part in there where you are training a muscle hard, resting it, resting it, training it, training it, and I think it's all relative as well. Like, if you're getting someone who's coming in from just, like, they're at the start of their journey, like you're, you're taking them from phase to face to face so maybe they can't like do a bodybuilding style where they're resting or you know like but you know getting them to go from circuit training to then you know more conventional sets and stuff like that like that comes over time i think when they start to see the benefits of it as well yeah and i think as well

when they um develop the skill of training properly hard which most people in their first couple years are training close to failure where you're like the reps are involuntary sewing down especially with stuff like i know hack squat like you have to have built up a decent amount of trauma and mental resilience to be able to do that. Or if someone that's come straight into the gym, like they go, oh, that's hard, because it is, but they won't go to push those places, whereas something like maybe super sets, it's like you can get a bit more volume in, so you get a bit more work done, and then you can start to go, oh, now your form is better and you can start to feel what it's like to train hard. It's like usually like six months plus, we tend to see people go, okay, you'll probably

will enjoy straight sets more because you're dying. At the end of your first set, you go, I can't, like, now I couldn't think of anything worse than super sets because I'm like, I usually push all my sets pretty damn hard. So if I've done a set of dumbbell bench, I'm like, I don't want to do a row now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let me, let me nap for a couple of minutes. But yeah, I think that's it. And it's like, like, and when we're talking about this, like, you're talking about like a 10 year journey of training to kind of to create that mindset of understanding what it, what it means to go close to failure or what a set. Like, like, and like, it takes time. And I think that's the, that's the, the really important message here is that like, because obviously,

see when people start their journey. They're like, I want results now. I want everything in my life fixed in the next six weeks. And like it's hard to explain to someone well. You're probably going to be doing this now for the next 10 years, 20 years, the rest of your life. Yeah, if you're lucky enough, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Do you have any advice? So I know you gave advice for, let's say, starting off, back to kind of personal trainers and people starting off their career as well. And you gave advice in terms of content creation. Do you have any advice? for personal trainers who don't want to go out of business in their very first chair because they couldn't make any money because I think obviously there's loads of statistics of people not making a pass their first and second year in the fitness industry. Yeah, I think give out a lot for free.

I know that sounds really counterintuitive by going, oh, how can I get money if I'm giving everything out to free? But like honestly, I think one of the biggest things that's built my business, not from like just now, but when I first started was that. When I first started, it was I was doing obviously like the Zoom workouts. I don't recommend that as a free thing. But it was something that got people invested in me, engaged in me, trusting me, and then that's where I got my first referrals from. And so if you're in your first couple of clients and you don't know how to get your first client,

that can be a great place to start. Like content creationals obviously giving value out for free as well. But like putting another layer onto that of like doing a month free of coaching or like, like, or like a free program or something along those lines that can be massively invaluable. And that's something that I've taken throughout, I say from when I started to now, like, I know I spoke about, I know other content creators that have the same sites following as I do, but they don't have anywhere near the amount of clients that we have in the business. And I can, hands down, tell me right now it's because I've got an email list.

And that's something that I started from the start. I started writing emails from the start. I was using email marketing since day one. and I think that's the biggest difference between me and other people that have grown on socials that haven't been able to get clients because, yeah, like most people that sign up to me they've been following me for six months, a year, 18 months

and it's like if I'm relying on Instagram to show them my stuff for that amount of time so maybe it takes an average a year for someone to go, oh yeah, actually I like their stuff, I want to work with them. The algorithm changes all the fucking time. I've used it to my advantage, but like I know like a seventh of my audience see my daily posts, if not less than that. And it's like, if I was relying on just that, I don't think they would see enough of what I do or what I

do to be able to, oh, I've seen them enough to kind of sign up to it. The reason I do is because I email my list three to four times a week. I've got over 100,000 people on my email list. Like, that's where my clients are. And so if you can kind of do that, not only just to get, obviously, like, know where where to contact people and things, but it's also, yeah, you can give additional value there. You can take them away from social media. You can get them further along the line of wanting to work with you. You can talk a little bit more in depth about your your client stories. Like, client stories go really well on email. People will sit down and actually read it. Like, it's like those sorts of things. Like I think that that does a lot better than I think people realise. I think

some people still think email marketing is dead. It's not. So yeah, so if you're if you're starting out give out stuff for free, just get their email address and then use that to get them to further down the line. Yeah. And I think about I think about that as coming from like a consumer perspective is when when I'm reading emails because I have some I'm on so many email lists like I love reading substack and stuff like that I have a substack where so I subscribe to people who I really enjoy reading but like when I'm on social media I could just be like you know it's dead space for me like I'm literally just zoomed out and I'm just going yeah so but when I'm when I'm when I'm reading emails or when I'm reading substack like I know I'm I'm actually concentrated then

you know um and i'm more inclined to to take my time and and read through something then maybe on maybe i just pull out instagram or or youtube shorts or ticot but i'm just i'm just looking like to like you know entertain myself for a couple of minutes rather than like with an email i'm really going to kind of pay attention to to what that person is saying yeah yeah and as well if like if they're if someone's opening your emails two three times a week yeah like you know they're getting it like like my email risk i think is like a 50% um open rate oh but rate and it's like and it's like well i know that's 50 000 people reading my stuff three times a week yeah and it's like they're not going to sign up on one of those emails but if i'm doing it's like it's a snowball

effect it's like the first two three years of me coaching i made enough to get by and i think that's that's something i would say embrace a bit of that of like you're probably not going to make the big bucks in your first couple of years like and that's fine use that when there's less eyes on you use that to fuck about and find out to become a better coach to become like and that's it oh actually biggest bit of advice has become a good coach sorry big one off and but yeah be in a place where you can like retain clients get a client on retain them like that that is where you're because it's like again i see so many people focus on like their following and getting as many clients through the door but like if you've got a leaky

bucket and you get like five clients leaving a month like like i've stopped taking on one-to-one coaching a year ago I still have 35 clients because the fuckers don't leave. And it's like, but if I didn't have that kind of retention model to begin with, I never would have survived the points where I was hating content creation, where I was really struggling. So I think like, yeah, underline, if you're in your first year, just become a really fucking good coach. Give out those for free, which will help you be a better coach.

Get email lists, get onto that as well as like creating content and finding your voice there. Both of those two will work really, really well together. And then over time, like just keep on pushing people from your socials to your emails and sell on emails connect on socials and that will that's if i have to give a formula so i do that for five years and you might be right i think people that people don't realize the amount the work that goes get is is involved uh when they first get in yeah you think oh i'll be a coach and then do a couple of posts yeah so my job well my job now is like 90% content creation but all the way through it's been about 50 50 even enough stuff but i also think

that content creation and being so consistent with that okay writing the emails all the time or, you know, just being creative. It also makes you a better coach as well because you have to really think about people's problems and you have to actually think about the solutions. So like I think the two go hand on hand. Yeah. And I think it like if you know it's learning with your audio, I think I've become a better coach since being a better content creation. Yeah. Because I know the language that like if people resonate and like a stranger's resonating with how I put out something online and go, oh that click like for example, I do a lot of perform videos. I get people going, I can't.

comment going, that really clicked in my brain. I'm like, cool, that's going to work with like, like it does kind of feed in. And I think that can really help with, because I know a lot of online coaches that are maybe starting out, that resent the fact that they have to make online content, especially if you, like, it does kind of grab my gears when you're an online coach and you get mad about needing the post online.

It's like, of course you do. It's like, it's kind of in the title. But like it's one where it's like the resentment part. I feel like, I feel like, I feel like we like look out of it and go, well, if you see them as. a more connected thing of like well your content can actually help your clients it's something that can make you refine your voice refine your clarity of message it means that you can say something in three words rather than 300 like that's that's and that short form content i think i think it's great for

that obviously it's a limitation and that you can't go into nuance and stuff but if you can get a point of like this is how to be in a calorie deficit and make it so you can actually go away and do it in the space of 40 seconds so you're going to have to be concise you're going to have to know your shit and it's Like, I think sometimes then, if you see it as that as like, oh, it's a way that I can improve some of those communication. And because that's ultimately what social media and coaching is, is good communication. It's like, if you can do that, then you're laughing, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think of it almost as like your content creation is almost the starting point of your coaching of that client.

Yeah. Yeah, because if you're, so for example, if I'm talking about maintenance, and that's partly why I talk about maintenance so much in my content is because I want people to come into my business and stay. that long. And to stay that long, they're going to have to go through the fat loss phase, and then going to have to go to the maintenance space. And they know maintenance is important before they've even signed up. Whereas if all you talk about fat loss and you go, I get fat loss results in eight weeks, people do an eight week fat loss day. I go, I'm done now. And that's where your retention shit. Our attention is over three, four, five years because we go, right,

we need to go through the fat loss maybe first. But then we have months of years of building muscle of maintenance. This is how our programming can go. Sometimes we're documenting, and how I'm going to increase my how many pull-ups I can do. It's like that those goals take a long time. Like if you sell pull-ups, for example, you know, most people are going to take like 18 months since first getting to the gym. And it's like, I think, yeah, as you say, if you use your content to talk about those longer things, I think it does help a lot with retention.

You're creating that expectation even before they come into your program. Yeah. And they, and especially if they've come from six weeks shreds to six-week shreds, they go, well, there you go, it might be more expensive. But if they sit on and they'll sit, because they know it's more expensive, it's more of a buy. they might sit on it for six months, but if they sign up and they're with you for two years,

that's, that it's just so worth it. That takes so much stress away. Worth it for them, worth it for you as well. And another really good point that you made there as well is like, because I think a lot of, a lot of coaches or personal trainers,

they get caught in that comparison trap of like, oh, how come I don't have that many followers or how come I'm not grown like that? And it's like, okay, like you was having a smaller audience to your advantage. Now you can actually like, because if people are, people are so worried about, you know, what people will say about the videos they make or the

things that, well, if no one's watching the interval, then you've nothing to lose. Oh, yeah, 100%. Like, yeah, I think it can be a superpower. And also, like, one-to-one coaching, like, our business models move more towards, like, group coaching and the app. Like, we still do one-to-one coaching. I don't, but my coaches do. But, like, one-to-one coaching, I think I would go for, like, personally,

if I wanted a one-to-one coach for my trainer nutrition, probably go for someone that does have less followers because I'm like, you're going to be giving me the time and the attention. And it's like you can, I think, like, I know people do feel like that. Some people do want the big names and all that. I do get people that literally just sign up because I'm only fitness. And it's like it's, but I won't be blind that they're not always the best clients. Like the best ones I've always had, the ones that have stuck by me have been ones that I've

had since I had like 4,000 followers or whatever. So I think like building a one-to-one coaching business, you don't need a big audience. You don't. You might need a little bit. Sometimes you might need a, obviously need a bit of an audience, there might be a degree of broke you need to do. But so as long as you're sharing your voice, sharing your opinions, creating content that people connect with,

that like you can show that you can get people the desired of results where it doesn't have to be transformation pictures, it can be talking about experiences, clients have gone through with you. If you can display that and people go, well, I feel like I'm going to get a personal relationship and connection with you. Yeah. One-to-one coaching business, I know tons of coaches that do incredibly well with a small audience because they use it to their advantage.

Yeah, yeah. It is about using what you have to your advantage and anything can be a superpower if you have, if you frame it that way. You were talking about community. It's something that I'm really big on. It's like I focus very much on kind of the social health aspect of fitness. How have you found like your app sounds amazing and I've been following it. And I'd say you're really, really proud of it because I know that the amount of work that it must have took to kind of get that off the ground and stuff like that as well. How have you found from kind of going to that kind of community-based style coaching and like,

you know, your members kind of being able to kind of keep up with each other's journey and, and like help each other that way as well? Yeah, so the group coach, we don't actually have like much of a community, really, with the app because of moderating it. Yeah. It would just be a whole other thing. And it's such a low price. Like my, my, the app actually happened by accident.

story time. Our group program kept on selling out in like four minutes. Yeah. We just had no way to put people and I had, I think, a waiting list of 15,000 people. And I was like, I was talking to that my business mentor. It's like, oh, you should charge them just to be in the waiting list and that way you can filter through people. I was like, charge people just to sit on a wait in this. That feels a bit muggy. So I'll tell you what, I'll just give them a program to get on with. And then it just kind of then kept on going. I was like, oh, fine, I'll do the freaking app. And so I've always been warned off for doing an app. most I think most coaches are because it's like it's expensive it is it's time consuming it is

it's a lot of stress possibly the worst thing I've ever done um didn't sleep for like two months completely awful um but yeah it for my audience it actually was the perfect thing just because they are generally newbies they are generally people that that's what they wanted so it did work really really well but because of how it kind of was born and because I was so proud of the group coaching, I kind of just kept the community aspect to the group side of stuff and the one-to-one side of stuff. So the one-to-one and the group coaching, they have like a gate kept community that's run for like circle and stuff. We do live days. So we meet up every eight weeks to do like a lifting day. So like that community is incredible. Like it's absolutely incredible. And I think that's

what like the group program, honestly, that's what made it as good as it is is like how well people chat on that and like how engaged they are people. And like because I talk about the same thing all the time on social media, we get people on the same journeys talking to each other. about the same things. And it's just, it's like, it's all well and good being a coach and being like, oh, I know how to set up your macros and this is what's going on with you right now. This is why you're emotionally eating and these things you can do. But having a good place where they can go, I've just literally sat and ate a whole top of Ben and Jerry's and now I want to throw myself off a cliff. Anyone else? And there's like five people go, yeah, me too. Oh,

oh shit. Okay, we can, you're not alone. You're not a failure. It's like that is incredibly powerful. And I underestimated that massively when I was just working with my one-to-one coaching like years ago. I think like, yeah, I'm really, really proud. of that that kind of community that we've built. So yeah, I think, I think community is a really cool thing. And again, talking about like maybe smaller creators or if you have a smaller team of people, using that to advantage, make it so people feel a part of something.

Like, it's just brilliant. That's why we get, like, with the group coaching and say, we get people stay for, like, we've had people since the first intake, do every single intake. And it's because they don't even sometimes engage with the checkers. I just like being part of the community. And it's like, yeah, that's fine. So yeah, I think it is a really cool thing to have the cornerstone of your business,

whether that is in-person meetups, whether that is an online forum, however it is that you like to run it. I think it's cool to keep it as a bit of a premium thing so you can moderate it. I dread to think. So I think we've got over 6,000 people on the app at this moment of like just doing the baseline subscription. Fuck knows what it would be like if they were in a forum together. A disaster.

Yeah, disaster. So yeah, I think it's like obviously no your limits of it. But definitely something to do it. to have at some point. Has a major work more meaningful when, you know, you get to do them meetups with them every eight weeks and you get to kind of meet the people that you have been helping all this time? Yeah. I can't like, where I've been online and especially now I'm taking a step back from coaching and it is a lot more I'm making content to get people into the app and to get people to my coaches and things. It's like I forget the impact that I have. I just kind of, as I say,

I've detached myself from social media and the business because it's too much. I can't process it. So I just choose not to, probably in therapy for that. But yeah, it's one of the like, yeah, it's just like, it's there. And then, you know, when you meet up with people and they're like, yeah, they just talk about what they've done or what they've achieved or how different they feel. And like some of the stories that people say they've overcome since doing like our programs and things, it's like, fuck. Oh, that's why we're doing what we're doing.

And yeah, because I get DMs about it quite a lot, but it's horrible. You do come relatively numb to it because it doesn't feel real. you're seeing it through a screen. It's like, we're moving into a digital age, I know, but it's like, I crave a lot of that in-person connection. And it's like, yeah, when you do the in-person things, I think it does bring that degree of fulfillment to your job again. And I always have like a rocket out my ass after or something like that to be like, oh, my God,

this is why I'm doing what I'm doing. I think if I didn't have that at all, I'd really struggle. It'll be very lonely as well. Yeah. And I think you have to dissociate, like, from online a little bit as well, because, like, you can't be thinking that like 730,000 people are watching everything you say like like that's not that's not a normal human experience yeah like when you when I'm so I go to quite a lot of gigs and things and I was like at a music festival and it's like 130,000 people there and you saw that and I was like that's my

average view of like a video and then like I posted a picture of me napping at that festival and that story for some reason got like 200,000 views I was like more people saw me nap than they did yeah like freaking corn headlining. I was like, how is this? It doesn't make sense when you put that into perspective, doesn't it? And it's just stupid.

Like, how do we live in a, like, and I think that's also one thing I would say of like, that's maybe a note of like, make the fucking content. Because what age, how do we live in where you can post something as stupid as that?

And get people know who you are and create a life off the back of that. Like, it's the opportunity of it is wild. And like when you think about those things that we spoke about of like cringing about what coaches might think, cringing what my friends might think, it's like all on the other side of that cringe. Like, like literally I'm in a house that I never would have been out for. I live in the most expensive part of the UK. That's not London because icky. But like I like, and I was like, the only reason I live here is because I want to be near my parents.

Because they're ageing gracefully, but they're ageing. And I'm like a really big part of my values is my family. And it's like I would not have been able to live near my family. if I hadn't embrace that cringe and done what I've done. And it's like, although there is all those scary things to talk about, it's like sometimes I think for me, I always have to focus on that other thing. I'm like, okay, yeah, that is fucking terrifying.

But that's the life that is being built on the outside of it. Get out your freaking head and post the content, even if no one likes it at this time. If you hate it, just post the damn thing. So. That's quality. I'm going to ask you two more questions and then I'm going to let you go,

because I know you're a very busy woman. But what's one thing that you've had to unlearn in business? Oh, I'm learning business. Business money is your money. Yes, I still have to learn that one actually. I'm still learning to this day. I think the taxes aside, I mean, I did learn that quite early on. But like, yeah, I think that's something that, oh, and pay your pension.

Fucking out, pay, I wish I paid my pension five years ago. Compounding interest is real. And if you're young, if you're a young whippersnapper, under the age of 30 if you do anything go open a freaking pension today. I know that's boring

even you put 50 quid in it compounding interest will just take you so much further if you don't wait until you're like 45 but I should start a pension now you'll be fucked yeah I think like when you go from like

working in a company where all that stuff is you know done for you and you don't have to worry about taxes and you don't have to worry about pensions because it's all going to set up for you and then you decide I'm going to go work for myself

and then it's like oh I have to deal or not. You have to leave that little pool of tax money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Staring at you for 12 months. You're like, you blasted. Can I quickly add one more? Yeah, go ahead. Like, of business lessons. Be careful of outsourcing, I think, is the other thing.

I think I see, a lot of people see outsourcing as the dream. And I think people always get surprised at how small Henley Fitness is as a team. It is still mostly just me. I have, like, my coaches, they are, contractors that tape the coaching, but all admin stuff until recently was me, like writing to myself, editing myself. Like I'm starting at our source now, but I've done that after five years and having the monetary investments to put it back. I think people get that very, very early on and you see people like mentors get you like this. They go, oh, we've got someone's doing 20k months

and all that shit and you can pay yourself to them. But they're talking about their revenue. They're not talking about profit. And I know firsthand these people have, they're paying DM setters. they're paying people that are closing sales. They are paying people to do so many stuff that they just don't need to do. It's just like hemorrhaging money for the sake of it. And I think so be tight on your outgoings. I know it's so boring. I've just said do pension and be tight on your tight hour.

How boring is that? But it's like it's the sort of thing that if you are better at those things, it takes the stress of needing to get more business in. If you know that those things are there. And only scale when you are at a position to scale, like let the demand dictate the scaling. Like the reason, again, I think we've been so stable with our growth, it's overflowing.

I only bought out the app when we had 18 months of being a sellout. Like those things happened because we not only had the financial to reinvest it, didn't have to take out loans and stuff, but it was the case of like we could do that because we knew the demand was there. We knew it would at least be moderately successful and anything else was a bonus. And I think a lot of people tried to scale before they've even got the ground being settled before they know how the inner workings of the business go. And like, yeah, there is a point we probably do need to let go.

or some stuff because if I ran at the level I was running at in December when I was launched in the app, I would have died by now. Generally, just would be dead. But, like, it's one of those of you've got to embrace some of the times with that you've got to do shit that you don't want to do. And outsourcing isn't going to fix everything. Sometimes you've got to learn how to do that shit yourself. And yeah.

Do you think that one thing that can't be outsourced is content creation? Yeah. Yeah. Editing, video editing, fine. Yeah. But, yeah, create, like, yeah, don't use AI. I can see it like clear as day like it's faceless content of like a real of something go I chat TV TKT oh this is spoil and it's just like anyone can post that and like 500,000

and other people have posted it it's like stop making faces content make your content just yeah mute other coaches and take off AI and just do your thing last one I had same question both for the different audience listening to this so what's one thing in fitness that you needed to unlearn? Oh God, one? One. Oh, it doesn't, I think, I've already said it,

but it doesn't have to be perfect to be valuable. I think it's the biggest form. Both with nutrition, that goes with nutrition and training. Yeah. Do you think with that advice, because it's probably the most valuable advice in, I think in fitness, but in business, probably in life as well as to like do it messy,

but do it. But like, it's so easy to say it to people but then it just, you can't just say it once and forth to land with people,

isn't it? It's like it has to be said in multiple different ways before it's like, oh yeah, in perfect action. Actually, I should probably just

go for the walk rather than, because I can't go to the gym. Yeah, 100%. And people, I don't think people are aware that they're ignoring that advice as well.

It's just, it's just the brain is wide. I think brain's wired for comfort. isn't it? And there's comfort in knowing you're doing something perfectly and you're going to, because if you're doing it perfectly, you know the outcome's going to happen. It's almost like why people, I think, do things like hit workouts or clean eating or these rigid diets because it hurts. If it hurts, it must be doing something. I think there's that connotation in the brain and that there's

comfort in that, although it's horrible, there's comfort in it. Whereas when you're doing it messy and imperfect, it almost feels illogical. So your brain won't go that way. It would just be like, oh, that you have to work hard and not get any results. Awful. So, I think it takes a trial of being in a position where you can fuck about and find out. And when you start to do it, you realize that's when it, like, until you do it, I just don't think people realise the value on it and then it clicks. So, yeah, you can half upon as much until someone just does it. It's like, it's hard.

Would you ever consider going into kind of a mentoring role in a couple of years or anything like that? I know, obviously, like, obviously there's a, there's a side to, you know, business. fitness, mentorship, that's, yeah, but,

you know, would you ever consider it? Because obviously, you'd be really good at the end that I would imagine. Oh, well,

thank you. Um, um, I've, I just, I don't think it will be, if I did. Yeah.

I think at the moment, I know it sounds a bit near, but like I'm just so busy. Yeah. And I've actually got other bigger, so, I'm going to put it on the podcast. So don't repeat this anywhere.

Currently looking to takeover in person. So why my goals, which is why I probably won't go into mentorship for a while, is that I really want to open a gym facility that actually caters beginners. That isn't class base. You know, like kind of like what pure gym does, but actually with a community, I've always found CrossFit and high rocks. They have incredible communities, but it's daunting as shit. I took my mom to a high rock's gym and she's my photographer.

So we did a live, we do our live days at the high rock gym. And she went there and she was like, I'm terrified. It's a really cool gym. It's brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. It's got an amazing community. But she was shitting herself. And I was like, there's just not a gym that caters the budget of a beginner, the lifestyle of a beginner or like those sorts of things.

And the town that I live in, it doesn't actually have a gym. It's a population of like 60,000 people. It doesn't have a gym. So I'm currently looking for a place to buy and then start in person and then create the in person community to match up with. the app like i've got a vision genius idea yeah so i want to be someone that actually creates that space of like that does it well um which if that is a vision probably takes decades to do so if that's what we do that's where my time's going to be and

and for me the reason i got into this is to impact people with their health and fitness and as much as i actually do get passionate about the business stuff and so i don't think i would completely write it off it's one way it's just like i just don't think it's not it's not in the it's not in the vicinity right now no like my time at the moment needs to be spent on like what I'm obsessing on right now. So yeah, yeah, it's my like, to be fair, I do talk to a lot of, I say coaches and I'm happily chat to people. I'm not, I'm like, yeah, I have to just chat to people for free. So I think there's so much abundance of business in the fitness industry because so many people

need help and good coaches, I think. So if you are a coach and you're listening to this and you're like, I just want to reach out to chat about that sort of thing. I've voiced loads of coaches and just chat to them about certain things. So I'm not pressures about it. I'm not precious about what I've learned. I can't be more than happy to that. Maybe I'll do like a one-off course of just shit that I've learned for super cheap or something. But in terms of actually mentoring and helping people's

businesses and being responsible for that, I would want to be a place where I was all in with it mentally. And I say, I've got other things that I think I just want to prioritise before that, yeah. Well, Rachel, you can share all your knowledge in Dublin and December anyway when you come over to see. There's the sell of your ticket.

Yeah, there we go. There's the plug what I will put in. Listen, thank you so much for today. You've been unbelievable. Where can people go to keep up with your work or ask any questions? So easiest place is Instagram. It's Henley Fitness. I'm also over on YouTube and Facebook as well. All right. Thank you for today. I appreciate it. That's right.