The Uneducated PT Podcast - Joshua Hills You Have No Idea What People Might Be Going Through

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

Joshua Hills InstagramKarl O Rourke's Instagram

Welcome to the uneducated PT with me, your host, Carlo Rourke. In this episode, we speak to Joshua Hills, who is an online nutritionist, who helps people improve their eating behaviours. In this episode, we touch on fafoic comments, the multitude of reasons as to why someone would be obese, as well as the new weight loss drug that's taking the internet by storm. Remember, the best way to support the podcast is to share it on social media and leave a review. For people who don't know what you do, explain what you do.

So I'm a one-to-one nutritionist. I had a background in sport originally, but always wanted to do nutrition. It was kind of like, I think originally I wanted to work in sports nutrition, and kind of went, so I went through the sports side of things, started delving into more of the nutrition side.

I realized actually I wanted to help with, I wanted to help more with sort of, I guess not just obesity, but people typically struggling with their food, and I've seen a lot of sort of close family members and friends. go through things like anorexia and, you know, really severely disorder of eating. And I was like, that's what I want to do, basically. So it was a case of going, doing my master's in nutrition.

And then I went into sort of NHS mental health. I thought that would be a really good place to kind of learn a lot about that not only are eating disorders very common there, also it gives you real challenges to sort of help someone who's very low to then improve their sort of well-being through, you know, whether it's food through activity through exercise. And I learned an awful lot better than that. And then sides go one to one. So primarily work with people to improve their relationship with food.

A lot of them have weight loss goals, but I think probably how I position myself is, now I'm all for improving health, whether it's through reducing obesity and other things. But also, I think people realize that they have much deeper issues and just losing weight. So I'm quite lucky. People do say, Josh, I want to lose weight, but I recognise I need to learn more about my eating habits. I need to eat more mindful. I need to improve my relationship with food first before I can move on to that. So we kind of work through a process to, you know, improve those things and then focus on that long-term health outcomes after. That was really interesting about the NHS and mental health. What kind of link do you feel your mental health has with people who suffer with obesity and wake in?

I think probably the most, you know, the simplest way for me to explain it is, you know, I worked with, so I worked in a, in, well, basically I worked at Baldwin Hospital, which is, you know, the most secure place in the country that isn't a prison, basically. It's more secure than a prison, you know. So people are detained under the mental health acts, whether that's because of risk of suicide, but it can be people who have committed a crime, but actually have been found to, you know, maybe be paranoid or schizophrenic or whatever. And so they're determined or determined that they, you know, weren't in control of their actions. So you watch people like that who are, you know, very low and they don't want to come out of bed all day. And you watch someone stay in bed for days upon end. So then your challenge is, how do I even get this person,

you know, up to even go for a walk, let alone, you know, help them eat better. So really challenging, but also so rewarding because I think, you know, you know, something I did was, you know, you build sort of working relationships with, with like, the service users. And, you know, they then look forward to the time that you're coming around to their ward to even just go for a walk in the garden because they're not allowed out on their own. Yeah. You go up and it's like that escapism of coming off the ward. And then, then once you build

like that sort of relationship, it's then, okay, what else do you want help with? Well, I want with my food. Okay, let's go through your menu. Let's see what food you're picking. What, what you're buying from the shop. Let's make sure it's enjoyable, but, you know, it supports your goals. And I think seeing things like that, and I think just seeing the difference it can make someone's day of just going for a walk outside or just going to the gym and lifting a few weights for it. Or I used to go in the sports hall and kick a football around or play volleyball or play badminton or something. I think you just see the power of exercise. I think that just, it was very eye-opening of how, help a few 30 minutes sessions a week of exercise

can improve someone's mental health who is so low, you know? It's funny because I've noticed this afterman's job that like mood dictates so much of a person's behaviours and it's like if your mood is really low, the last thing you want to do is exercise. But the funny thing about it is that the one thing that's going to improve your mood is probably doing the thing that you least want,

to do because you feel like shit. Yeah. It's like people that, you know, it's kind of like a bit of a running joke in a way, but people, you know, crack the joke of, oh, you're depressed and try going outside for a walk or, you know, try going to students. Like, yeah, we know that improves it,

but the challenge is how would you, how would you overcome that obstacle when you are so low? Yeah. But yeah, no, it was very eye-opening. I learned a lot. You know, very, it was hard work, emotionally, you know, take a lot home with you. Yeah.

But yeah, no, it's, you know, exercise on a, you know, massive, massive impact on it. But it's like anything, it's like saying someone, they're obese, you know, right, you need to, you need to eat less. Well, they know that. But that's, that's, that's the, that's the most challenging thing, isn't it? Why do they eat more? And it's how you unpick that. So it's the same with someone who, you know, is low and, you know, doesn't exercise. So, you know, what are the barriers?

How do we make it simple? How do we make it fun, no? Well, well, that's, I think, probably. like for for coaches who weren't experienced to have that kind of experience going into that kind of situation I presume it's it's very eye-opening in terms of okay you create that you create a lot more empathy in terms of like when I first started personal training and like the first thing I'm going to dive into is okay we need to train or we need to make sure that you're eating this this and this when essentially it doesn't really have anything to do with training or has anything to do with diet It has everything to do with, like them things that you spoke about, their mental health, their mood, all these kind of barriers that are in front of before we even deep dive into nutrition and training.

Exactly. I think one thing a lot of people forget about, and it's kind of like, you know, my whole ethos is mental health should be the priority because good luck trying to make long-lasting change your physical health or your weight or anything if the mental health doesn't have an improvement. So sometimes just focusing on what makes you feel better, what makes you feel, you know, more alike. what gives you a sense of relief, relaxes you, that sort of stuff. To me, always comes first over, let's look at how many calories you eat in, or let's go get you some exercise that you don't enjoy, you know, that sort of thing.

So I think it's really important. Besides from the mental health barrier, what other kind of barriers do you see come up with people who are obese? There's a lot. I would say one of the most common thing I come across, but it's probably because it's sort of, I get probably because of how my sort of content is geared but you know it's it's the emotional side of eating the binge eating the overeating the stress eating the just turn into food to sort of

sort of sort of solving emotion if you know what I mean I mean that's what a lot of people struggle with especially that I speak to and then that turns into you know I was a bit stressed so then then they sort of associate well every time I'm stressed I go out the shop and I buy some chocolate and some crisps and things. So then that turns into, oh, they're bad foods, you know, because they only ever associated them with the stress eating or the emotional eating. That's a big part I find. And I think once, what I find is work with people on to one is once you unpack that and you delve into it and see where it comes from.

It could come from, you know, the loss of a loved one. It could come from, you know, being called fat once you were a child. When you unpack what that's from, you can kind of work backwards and try and, break it down and find, you know, other things that they can replace that with and try and encourage them to include those things, like with permission and say, all right, cool, you only see chocolate when you overeat it in response to stress. Why don't we start having it for lunch so that you actually feel in control of chocolate, if you know what I mean? And then we find something else to do when you're stressed. And it's not easy. Once you start finding that sort of that solution,

then they can do that themselves. Like I find the lifting their sort of confidence, they go from a few weeks ago being Josh, I get so many messages that and even people working with that, I don't think you'll be able to help with Josh from a lost cause and all this sort of stuff. And, you know, it's a severe like, I'm afraid of dying. I'm afraid I'll be dropped dead tomorrow. I want to be here for my children. And then literally within a month, they're like, I'm not a bing or am I? Like, I've just realized it's changed. Be really powerful. And I find that's probably the most common thing, but also the most important thing I do doing that at the start, focusing on that.

So emotionally is a big part and, and, stopping them from doing that with different strategies. Is there any other strategies that you implement that you haven't mentioned there in terms of emotionally and to help them to use other ways as a coping mechanism for further stress? Yeah, so one thing I think is really important is you're trying to frame it to being more mindful with your food, so focusing on mindful eating.

What is mindful eating? because I know a lot of people will have heard the term mindful eating, but they might not understand what it is essentially. Well, basically it's the opposite to minus eating. So I would say how many times the people find themselves really hungry or really stressed and they're just in the kitchen, empty in the cupboards? Yeah.

You know, they've got a few hours or an hour to go to dinner and then they end up going to our dinner and they're like, I'm full because I've just eating so much. So it's trying to be more present in the moment, try and work out, okay, am I actually hungry, or is it another emotion causing me to go over for food? If so, what is that emotion? Is there anything else I can do to relieve that emotion

that isn't necessarily based around food? And don't going to be wrong. Food can still be used. Like, you know, food is a comfort tool, you know? We all have comfort meals. We all Friday night, once in a night. I'll probably be sat there watching a film eating a pizza. That's my comfort thing on a Friday night.

I'm not going to change that. But it's trying to be more present, try and identify what you're eating habits are, what causes them, and then try and go through a process of first becoming aware of them and then trying to change that behavior. So, you know, for example, if it's, let's say someone has a really emotional, stressful job and they find, you know, they come out of work.

And the first thing they do is, you know, they're buying food on the way home, all right, is in response to stress? So it's, okay, is there anything that I can do right now that's going to help reduce that stress? So, you know, something I've done with clients is, why don't you, when you finish, the first thing you do, you go for a walk. But instead of saying, I'm not going to eat, and take the, you know, the chocolate bar or something with you.

So you're going on the walk and your only focus is relax and enjoy the chocolate, but it's one bar instead of five, you know. So it's trying to focus on strategies like that and they're very different for everyone else. You know, I have clients who will go and do a crossword or a puzzle or do some coloring or, you know, do some yoga or go for a walk or take a bath, you know, it's trying to or sit in the garden and listen to the birds, like stuff that people will laugh at, but it's finding something that you find really. relaxes you and can bring you back down to a bit of more like rational thinking.

But also saying if I want the chocolate, let's have it. But can I just be more mindful about the amount I'm going to have? Because chocolate's not going anywhere. There's more in the cupboard if I want more if I want more later. Shops around the corner if I want more later. But can I just try and be more mindful now? Just think about how do I want to feel in an hour's time? Do I want to feel really overflow and regret eating all that chocolate?

Or do I want to feel like actually I found something else that reduces my stress? I had a bit of chocolate because I wanted to and actually I feel much more better an hour or two later and I don't wake up with the gild or regret the next day. What people will essentially probably try to do initially I would imagine when you

get them to implement them strategies and actions is just say no to the chocolate bar altogether. Why would that be a detrimental thing to do? Just imagine you've said I'm not going to have any chocolate, I'm going to be good for such and such period of time.

And you go a few days without having chocolate and then you go and have a really stressful day at work or you have an argument with your partner or, I don't know, your kids get excluded from school, whatever it is. And you haven't had the chocolate and you've been craving chocolate for a few days. The likelihood is you're going to go and eat more chocolate in one day in one go. But what I would say is why not spread that chocolate out over the week evenly each day? You might eat the same amount of chocolate at the end of the week, but I bet you've enjoyed it more.

and I bet you feel more comfortable afterwards and you don't get that feeling of I feel sick now and I feel what I don't feel like that's all. Which is obviously a common thing when people emotionally eat is they kind of eat until they're almost sick. And then they feel like crap and then they beat himself up and then they're harshing themselves

and then the cycle just, you know, continues. Yeah, yeah. When we spoke about it with the way that they were restrict chocolate and then, you know, consume it in large amounts, essentially that's kind of behaviours of of being trapped in a yo-yo diet cycle, would it be? Quite often.

I think one of the problems with yo-ya dieting is it makes people perceive themselves to be a failure because they've tried so many diets over the last goodness knows how many years. And they're like, well, none of them worked long term, so I'm a failure. And it's like if you actually strip it back and look at those diets, are they designed to work long-term? Are they, you know, do they make you miserable? Do they make you miss out on going out down the pub for a beer and a burger with your mates at the weekend? Like they don't allow for those sorts of things.

So your life isn't going to be enjoyable. And I think it's kind of trying to help people, effectively say, right, how many diets have I tried in the last, however many years? Have any of them worked? Or am I, you know, back to square one, maybe, I don't know, maybe you put on more weight. Okay, then you need to kind of think, do I just rule out those kind of diets? And do I look at a different approach? So what is the issue? Well, you know, I like chocolate.

I emotionally eat. They're the most important things you kind of need to address rather than just dieting. Because dieting is not going to fix that. Poor relationship with food is going to make it worse. Dieting is not going to fit, you know, the confidence issues that you have with yourself or your happiness. You know, you've probably got to look a bit deeper

and try and address the root of the problem rather than just thinking, I need another diet. So to get people away from the diets that aren't, working and to get them closer to a diet that suits their overall lifestyle and obviously their goals and their quality of life, how do you navigate that transition? So again? So how do you navigate that transition from, you know, someone who's being kind of yo-yo-diding and doing lots of diets that have failed and, you know, in a poor position now to helping

them to find a way of eating that is suitable to their lifestyle? How do you approach that? The first thing we do is really important is we sort of, you know, dive into their goals, their past, things like that. So, you know, someone says to me, yeah, I want to lose weight. So why do you want to lose weight? But what's the importance of losing weight? And it could be something from, you know,

I have these clothes that I really love and I don't fit into. And it's not so much the size of the clothes. It's, I want to wear these side clothes because they make me feel more like myself. It could be, you know, I lost my parents at a young age because of, you know, hereditary disease. I don't want to have that. I want to be here for my children. So I think find out the reason why is so important first. And then trying to find out why they're in the situation they are. So, you know, what are the eating habits that, you know, preventing them from getting to where they are? And then we'll dive more into like that overall diet. So instead of me

saying, right, here's what you should do, do this, do this, do this. I typically get them to record like a seven-day food diet. And so be honest, there's no judgment. the weekends. I don't care if you go out and have 10 points. I'll do the same. It's not. I'm a normal person. There's no, there's no judgment or anything. And then we go through it together and I get them to look at it and say, where do you feel you can make the improvement? All right? So instead of, as we know, someone just tells you what to do, probably not going to stick to it. But if you can look at it and go, okay, I think I need to improve this. And I think I could do this by doing this makes it, you know, makes it more likely to be a longer last and

change and trying to make sure that it is suitable for them. So it's all one thing is saying, you know, they might say, well, yeah, I could have a, you know, a better breakfast, like poached eggs and avocado on toast. But then you might have to look at, okay, what time do you need for work in the morning? Is that feasible in the morning? All right? So maybe we do that at the weekends when you have a bit more time. But during the week, we need to make sure you've got quick and easy breakfast. So it's just breaking down sort of the potential hurdles and then mini solutions for them. Yeah. So being really understanding your. client, what they've done in the past, what their situation is, and coaching the person rather than

the program to a sense. The thing I've got to realise is we're all completely unique, right? We have completely different bodies, completely different preferences, behaviours, jobs, families. I don't have kids, but most of my clients have kids. So their demands on time that are so different to mine, you know, I can pick and choose when I want to leave, you know, but people with kids can't. So it's kind of working out what's going to suit them, you know, and that's the, that's the most important thing I think. What's your thoughts on skipping breakfast?

Because I know the type of clients that you have would be very much in the category of when they're starting, is that they're essentially probably under eating a lot in the morning and over eating in the evenings, are they? Yeah, typically, typically. I think as an actual concept, whether you eat breakfast or not, I don't personally think for the average person, it's a big issue. Like, I don't, I eat breakfast, but I probably don't eat it until very late morning, midday. Some people sound bonkers, but I'm not, I don't, I'm not hungry in the morning. And I'm not, and I'd rather just eat my porridge or whatever it is, you know, later in the morning.

But I think for the typical person, probably not an issue. But I would say if you are someone who typically struggles with any type of, you know, evening let's say overeating, whether it's emotional, bingy, anything like that, it's probably not a good idea because it's only going to likely, it's only likely to increase the hunger. So if you're then adding that to the stress or the emotion, you know, probably not great.

And if you're someone who typically, you know, does get hungry or later in the day, then, you know, I would say, why not try having breakfast? And, you know, there's a lot of, there's sort of a lot of evidence to suggest that, you know, having a bigger breakfast and having, you know, a bigger lunch compared to what we typically have and having a smaller dinner probably helps.

It helps you regulate your appetite and it takes, you know, you're less hungry in the evening so you're less likely to go into the snack cupboard. You know, if someone's still hungry after dinner, most people don't typically go and have something like yoghurt and some fruit, do they? No. Where's the crisps or where's the chocolate? So I think for some people it can make that a lot easier because they don't have that, you know, as high of an appetite in the evening.

Yeah, I remember actually reading that study only a couple of weeks ago about having a bigger intake of breakfast and lunch over dinner can help the regular weight, which I thought was really interesting. Just because you get a lot of people online who just say, oh, just skip breakfast and just fast and you'll lose weight. And obviously, maybe that advice might work for some, but it's not going to be a blanket statement for everyone. No, and the concept sounds simple and it sounds reasonable and some people can be. But I was having this conversation with somebody last night on the phone, one of my clients. And they were saying, Joe, Josh, I started with you, like, no, two months ago, something like that. And they were like, you told me, you know, I didn't eat breakfast. You said, that's folks I'm eating breakfast.

I was like, I am never going to eat breakfast. And she was like, now I can't live about it because I feel so much better in the morning. I have more energy. And I don't come in from work going, I need to went to the covers. That just, that little change for some people makes a huge difference. It just makes it easier for them. to stick to how they want to eat, you know, rather than feeling like I can't control us.

Yeah. And I used to be one of them people as well who was like, I never have an appetite for breakfast in the morning. But then when my schedule changed and I started to kind of had to have breakfast in the morning, and then when I noticed I was eating breakfast in the morning, what happened?

I had an appetite for breakfast in the morning. So sometimes it's the, you're not going to get the thing until you do the thing. Exactly. And everyone's different on there, different routines, different. If you're someone who gets up and, you know, sits at a desk at home in the morning, your demand for breakfast probably isn't as big as someone who's like a postman

who's out to living and stuff early in the morning. You have to factor that in. Then you have to factor in like the psychological elements of people. You know, they are different. And some people, you know, it does make their, you know, appetite in their room seeing the food easier during the day. So it's just different for everybody else. Yeah.

Moving on to obesity, which I wanted to deep dive in a lot with you today, So first of all, as a society, what are we getting wrong about obesity? That's a good question, in that. One thing that really sort of frustrates me is just people's outlook on obesity and just, I think people are very judgment. We're quite vocal about sort of the stigma around mental health now, like a lot more than we were 10, 15 years ago. But I just think you've only got to look in like, you know, in the news and whatever or social media.

You know, people are fatphobic. And it's like, right, just because somebody's, you know, overweight or obese or whatever, you know, doesn't change them as a person. They still deserve the same respect, the same medical care, the same. I just think that is a big issue that we probably need to address how you do that. I don't know. Why, why is it as a society? why is that from the general public that, you know, we take things like mental health

really serious, but things like obesity, we cause more judgment and more shame around it than other. I don't know. I think there's a few reasons. I think there's a large population, maybe not a large population, but a population of the country of the world, whatever, who have never struggled with their weight. All right? So they perceive it as easy.

you know they can eat what they like you know some can eat whatever they like they're never put on weight some people will think about what they eat but they find it easier they're never put on weight and i think they can never experience or understand what it's like to be in somebody else's shoes so they just see it as well they're not trying hard enough they're lazy you know they they don't they don't care and then i think you've got another group of people who just again just think it's just down to we just need to do some more exercise they just need to eat less And actually they don't have the understanding of the psychological element, you know, the fact that some people, you know, genetically are, you know, have a higher chance of being obese because maybe their appetite regulation isn't as, you know, efficient as somebody else. So I think it's a lack of understanding. And with that comes a lack of sort of empathy. And I think, you know, if you put yourself in someone's shoes who, you know, has struggled with their weight and already has low confidence.

low self-esteem. So then be told, it's just because you're not working hard enough, but it's just because you're lazy, or it's just because you can't control your eating and you're not trying hard enough. Imagine then what it does then, does it make it even harder to those ways? I think it's a lack of understanding.

I think also with that lack of understanding, someone who doesn't understand, oh, the complexities of obesity, one of their arguments would be, oh, well, my mate John down the road was obese and now he's not anymore, so why can't you? it. What for what for for for that argument's sake what would you say about about that?

I think again going back to everybody is very different and their mate John down the road probably found the solution that worked for them. Now that doesn't mean that that solution is going to work somebody else. It just means that John found that solution whether that was working with someone, whether it was finding a new passion that was activity based, whether it was just having a real drive to say do you know what I'm fed up of eating like this. It's a really. is this doesn't make you feel good, I'm going to make change. Some people can be that. Some people need support. Some people need guidance. I think it is trying to understand what that person struggles with and then trying to come up with plan for that specific person. And it also goes back to what we were talking about at the start when when we started off this podcast, what you're talking about the NHS and mental health. Maybe John down the road has sorted out what's going on upstairs while this other person is actually suffering with their mental health at the moment,

which is something that people have a lot of empathy towards. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. And I think I saw something like this. I saw something like this the other day. And it was, I can't remember where I was. But it was, it was a story about someone who had finally got help for their mental health and then lost a load of weight. It was what I didn't actually change anything apart from what was going on in my head.

And I got that help and then it allowed me to find out who I really was. and I started loving walking again and all those sorts of things and I started eating better. And sometimes it can be something that's nothing to do with the obesity itself. There's a minor factor that's causing it, you know? And then also another thing with people that don't get it,

well, maybe you've never been obese before, but you know, you grew up in a two-parent income household who, you know, cooked, you know, homemade meals every night and, you know, you were brought to your sports team every day since you grew up. So, like, for someone like that, it might be a lot easier for them to manage their way where someone who maybe comes from a home,

maybe it's a single parent background who, you know, was out all the time working, maybe had to come home late, maybe had to order to takeways, maybe didn't have the money to put their kids into, you know, sports clubs and stuff like that. So would you say environment as well as that plays a huge role in terms of it, yeah.

So there's a really, really good podcast on this. It's called The Social, Ethonoan elephant in the room, I think. And it's by Alan Flamigan and Dr. Gossowicz. And if you've never really thought about it, you know, it even breaks down like the difference in life expectancy between like the rich areas in London and the poor areas. And it's like they have the access to the same food. You know, they live a couple of miles of.

part, the life expectancy is so different. And I think people, like, we're going to see it, right, with the cost of living crisis and everything, the cost of food going up, and they've only got to look at, you know, the cost of milk, cheese, fish, meats, vegetables, things like broccoli, broccoli's gone up by, like, what was it, gone up on average by like 60 to 95 p or something like that? Now you add that to somebody whose bills have gone up, you know, then they're not going to be able to afford stuff like that, but it is typically ease. And people go, well, you're drunk food's more expensive, but think of the amount of energy you get from something, all right, from something that's cheaper.

Like if you go buy, I don't know, crisps or pizza or stuff like that, pot noodle, the energy you get in it compared to the energy you get from a broccoli. So if you've only got a certain amount of money to feed your kids or feed yourself, you're looking for the most amount of energy you can get from your pound or your two pound. I think people forget that found the stuff. But it'll, it's going to get, it's going to be challenging. Yeah. Yeah.

So when people don't understand that privilege is a real thing when it comes to health and fitness, I don't think people get that. So like we're not all on even and even playing field and it's probably the gap is probably getting larger, as you said. Massive. I even saw one of the carnival advocates the other day. Finally talking, you know, I don't care about the carnival diet. I think it's ridiculous. But he was finally talking about that actually it is the diet for the privileged and diet for the rich. I was like, finally, at least someone has said it.

Yeah. And then you still get people replying to it going, oh, that's really cheap to eat a carnival diet. He's like, okay. Same with organic food as well. So why did you just get organic? Where did you just get it to organic? Moving on from, okay,

some of the reasons that contribute to obesity. Obviously, we've looked at genetics, we've looked at environment. Actually, we haven't actually spoke too much about genetics. genetics can you just explain to someone that wouldn't have a clue about how genetics plays a factor in weight gain what what what are the components to that to keep it really really simple it's not that somebody wakes up and they can eat the same amount of energy and do the same amount of exercise and genetically they're going to be five stone heavier it's not like that but genetically we all have a

different makeup of, you know, everything like hormones and, you know, if you want to go into depth, things like that, but some things will make it easier for somebody to put on weight or they may have less appetite regulation, you know, and you've got other things like disabilities. Now, people are born with a disability. You know, do they have the same ability to be able to go and walk like, like we do? No. So then they are, you know, because of their genetics, they're potentially given a bit of an unfair hand of things like you know what i never even thought about that yeah it's such it's funny it came to me the other day and i was like i was think somebody i was talking somebody about genetics and it came to me and i was like you know i have clients that are in a wheelchair

right and it's like it was genetic you know and you know the people will be out there saying no it's nothing to do of genetics obesity's not related to genetics but that's the most simple argument yeah that's like if someone comes at me you know that's the argument that I got to use because it just shuts down the conversation straight away. So it's not, it's not, it's not thinking about it, like someone's born with a gene that says they're going to be a lot more obese than somebody else. It's look at the whole makeup of everything, all right? You know, what family are you born into? I know that's not necessarily in genetics, but, you know, what were your parents like, you know, what family you're born into, you know,

in terms of how able body diet and then you look at the, like, makeup of things like hormones and things and hunger-related hormones, you know, they all have a role. And, you know, we look at things like Mood. You know, some things to do with Mood can be genetic. You know, we look at a lot of things, disease, things like that. So some people, you know, are dealt an unfair hand, and yet some people are completely ignorant to that. I think that just makes it more challenging, doesn't that? Yeah, that's, like, that's, that's the argument put by them people. It's like, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get on with it, but they have no idea

how difficult it could be for that person who was brought up in an environment that essentially fails them. They might have a genetic deficiency where they're 10 times hungrier than that other person. And then, you know, all the other things that you've even spoke about there. So, like, I think that should put to bed,

the argument that has anything to do with willpower. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 100%. So going on from that, that leads us on to weight loss drugs, which is obviously a huge controversy at the moment. Why is it a controversy and why are people so emotionally invested in shitting on it essentially? Probably because of the things we just spoke about. Some of the stuff we spoke about in terms of the way, you know, a proportion of society are, let's be blunt, a fat phobic. So they think that they're just not trying enough. so why should they get medication or why should we as the taxpayer

and medication or you know all those silly things that people come up with they they think of it as cheating in some ways don't they but what they don't realize is people go you know people go well you know why should we fund you know these drugs are massively expensive why should we fund this is like do you know how much the NHS spends on you know disease management and stuff part of vascular disease type 2 diabetes all these things that cost the taxpayer money But actually, if we could be more preventative with it, we would reduce the cost spent by the Tucka. But they don't think of it like that.

I think another proportion is, I think you've only got to look at how not necessarily just anti-vats people are, but anti-sort medication people are. You know, statins, the vaccines, all those types of things. People are very against them. All right. Now, they don't like medication. They think that food is medicine and that you can cure and prevent all disease from food and exercise.

And it's like that's not how the world has ever worked, ever will, you know. So I think that's a proportion of it. But I just think, again, I think a lot of it is, and I think a problem, a big problem is there's some big names, more so in America than in England and Ireland that are very anti these type of medications and they have big followings.

And you know what it's like when, you know, when you've got to see like the carnival and the keto crowd, As soon as someone big starts talking about it, it becomes like a cult following. And it's like people who will comment on our Facebooks or something. You get the most outrageous claims. You can read it, you go, I know exactly where you've been learning

your information from. It's all just filter down arguments already, isn't it? Provide a reference, they can't. They just, all they're doing is just like, just word vomiting what they've just heard on YouTube from some American, uh, oh, what do you call them?

Um, not a doctor. Um, nature apart or you know what I'm so so ozempic is the the main weight last drug isn't it yeah so it's basically um basically a glucon like basically acts as like a glucon like peptide um which then is secreted when you're eating's kind of reduce appetite and increase satiety so it's going to help people eat less in theory because they're not as hungry you want to eat. I've sat with people whilst they've used it.

I've had friends use it. I've had previous colleagues use it. I've spoke to people about it. And it does. What's your experience with clients? I've just lost your sound by saying. Oh. No, it's me. Say it again. My Siri. Sorry. So what is your experience with clients and friends who have used it? What do they say?

I don't have a client using it. but from friends and people have spoke to, they say that the main thing is they're just not hungry and it's the first time in their life that they don't go to have dinner and they're like, they're like, well, I'm just going to have a small portion because normally I'm starving and I can't regulate my outside.

I think the most powerful thing for me is, you know, what people say is for the first time in my life, I feel in control around food. That's so powerful. And that it's not just that it helps them, eat less, it gives them confidence, you know? Actually, I can have, you know, what I consider, like, a normal amount of food, you know, and I think that's, that's a, that's a big one. It's the confidence it gives people. And I, I presume, like, even what we haven't touched on, like,

by people using these weight loss drugs, if they have a positive effect, you know, by losing, losing weight and, you know, being in more control of food and so on and so forth, that's just going to promote even more healthy behaviours and actions for them to implement that they probably couldn't have done before. Definitely. Like if let's say somebody loses, uh, the drugs, they look like maybe you lose around 15% of bodyware. I'd say someone even loses five to 10% of their body weight. The likelihood of them going and walking further because they can because it's more comfortable is going to increase. So the likelihood of them being more active is going to increase. You know, it's that whole round sort of they're probably going to feel better, you know, in terms of mental health.

they're probably, they're going to eat better because of portions and they're then deciding, you know, if my appetite's not that big, you know, what is a healthy dinner? You know, what is nutritious rather than I just want to eat and eat and eat? So I want all the nice taste of things. And they have less appetite for those type of things. So in just the all-round picture of it, it just helps people make healthier decisions overall. Yeah, it's like we said even before. It's like you can have the momentum going one way or going the other way. And if it's, it can be a spiral down. Or in this case, it can cause positive benefits and positive benefits. to come out of that one thing.

I suppose when the weight loss drug first kind of came out, there would have been a lot of, but a bloody insecure personal traders who are like, these are going to, this drug's kind of take. And I presume that is an argument for people who kind of bash it as well, is that they feel that, oh, people are just, you know, taking a weight loss drug and that's it. Yeah, I think people think that, like,

anyone and everyone's going to go use it. there will always be people that will do stuff like anything in the world. But, you know, it's something that is going to help people massively. And at the end of the day, if, you know, this is something that we really need to focus on trying to improve. Is it going to solve the obesity crisis? No. But is it going to help a lot of people feel more confident around their eating habits? Yeah. And anyone who shouldn't want that is probably, I don't know, I don't know.

I would describe them, but probably not, probably not someone I'd want to spend time with. No, or work with. Yeah, exactly. So I think it is a really good step. And I think from like the research, you know, I'm not a doctor. I'm not, you know, I'm not, I don't describe it. I don't work with it. But everything I've read, it seems like this is given the sort of nutrition and health community, the most confidence out of anything that I've ever seen, really, that it can make a real change to some people's lives. So yeah, I think it's brilliant. Obviously, you know, it's not perfect. And you can delve into when someone stops, you know, will they put the weight back on,

likely. But then that's the same with any type of, you know, diet that someone does, but with the right support and who's to say, you know, someone shouldn't stay on it for a long time. You know, we do it with other medications for other diseases. Why would this necessarily be any different? But I think some people might be able to come off it. They might learn enough and have the right help and support. And we don't know what the research is going to say in like two, three years time. You know, there could be something else to help someone come off that we don't know, really. Yeah.

And like you said, having the right support. So like I presume it's not something like, okay, you take the weight loss drug and then, you know, you continue with the, if you've had, let's say, poor eating behaviors and so on and so far. Let's say you eat a lot of junk food and stuff like that. It's not you don't use the weight, last drug, to then eat junk food, but just less of it. And then when you come off it, you still have the same actions and behaviors that got you in the first place. You use it. And then also that aids you into more healthy behaviors and actions that are going to get you to where you want to be. Exactly.

And people are still going to want nutritionists and PTs to help them pick what to eat. How do you improve the diet still? You know, it doesn't show anyone how to exercise. It doesn't show anyone what their form is or how to structure an exercise program or give that someone that's support of, you know, you're doing great in the gym, look how much your strength's improved and your forms improved. And, you know, it doesn't give people that. They're still going to look that support alongside it.

Yeah, they're going to need it. And like, obviously it's been well put forward that you do this alongside, you know, diet and exercise and making sure that you are, you know, getting an adequate amount of protein and resistance training because you want to hold on to as much muscle mass as possible while losing 15% body weight. that is yeah and it's an important point because there's been some people again mainly over in america but you know you see anything on twitter and stuff they've been very vocal about the trial

showing that people lost a considerable amount of muscle mass and they're saying well technically it makes you fat to then the thing is you look at any diet people who use muscle mass all right and when they looked at the trial when they did the trials basically to put it simply they weren't focused on whether people were weight train and necessarily eating enough protein they were just focused on what impact the drug had. So yes, people lost a considerable amount of weight and they lost more muscle mass. But then so did like the placebo groups because no one was weight training or the majority weren't weight training. So people would look at it and go, yeah, but you know, the research shows you lose muscle mass. It's probably not that simple. You know, if you're using the drugs and your

weight training and eating sufficient protein, then you wouldn't, I would guess you probably wouldn't lose, you know, any more muscle mass than somebody else following an average diet. who's doing the same. Yeah, and like, I think, I mean, if you, if, if the drug gives you the confidence to actually get in the gym now and train and you find a new love for that, and then you make that a behaviour you're going to do the rest of your life, I mean, that's probably a likely Yeah, that's, that is the goal. Yeah.

If we could find, if we could find, even if somebody didn't lose loads of weight, even if we could find everyone an activity or an exercise that they like doing, they enjoy, that make them feel great and made them feel confident, you know, that is, that is what we should all want. We all want somebody to find that one thing, whether it's yoga or CrossFit or football or rugby or just going for a walkie dog every day. It doesn't matter, does it? But I think that, you know, that's what we want. Yeah, 100%. So just to move on from obesity and just for the last few minutes diving into just general weight loss and, you know, the general public who just want to, you know, lose a couple of pounds and just get in better shape. Is there a right time and a wrong

time to go on a diet in your opinion? Yeah, there's probably, I think instead of saying, is there a right time to go on a diet, I think you should probably look at what's the most important thing for me to do right now. So if you're if you're not active, all right, and you're trying to lose weight instead of hopping on a new diet, maybe the priority should be can I focus on activity first? Because that's probably going to have a bigger short term impact on your help, all right? And that's probably going to give you improve your mental health. You know, if you take someone who's completely sedentary and doesn't eat well, and you say the only thing we're going to change for now is just going to get walking outside 20 minutes for the dog every day, that's probably

going to have a bigger impact on their mood and their overall health than just saying, let's change your diet, you don't know. So I always think start with the thing that you feel is most important and work on that first rather than jumping straight for a diet. You know, try and change a couple of behaviours. That's probably going to get you better success. You know, folks on what's really important soon. There's a diet's a funny word, isn't it? Because, like, you can, three people can be having a conversation about a diet and be having a completely different conversation. So what I was going to ask you essentially is, like, you know, you have the arguments of,

like, you know, strong diet culture. It's like, you know, do keto or do the carnivore diet or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you have like on the other subgroup who would be like, oh, no diets work, all diets fail or 95% of diets fail. Like, what, when you think of diet, what do you think? And what would it be your argument between them two subgroups? See, when I hear diet, I think because I'm so ingrained in that industry and I despise it, I just think of the restrictive stuff.

Yeah, yeah. So you think of the anti-dial culture. Yeah, yeah. But like, I'm not, I'm not necessarily like anti-diet because, you know, yeah, I do see diet and it's like, you know, there can be really positive ways of dieting. And I suppose in the sense, you know, my clients, they feel like they're on diet, but some of them are losing weight. So, you know, you could say technically it's a diet, but I see it more as like behaving. A way of living.

What I would say to somebody is go and if you see someone or you know someone that you trust whether they're a PT, whether they're a nutritionist, go and chat to them, tell them what your goals are and then say, can you help me? Because, you know, someone might come to you and say, Carl, I want to lose a load of weight and you go, right, cool, us have a look at your lifestyle. Okay, you don't do any sort of movement at all, do you, no. Well, why don't we focus on that first? Let's get you in the gym. Let's see if you enjoy doing some PT with me. You know that sort of thing? so anyone that is sort of responsible and well in tune with like the general public

should be able to personalise whatever the approach is for in but yeah because when I when I think of diet when I'm talking about diet to my clients I'm not even thinking about food in my head I'm thinking about oh yeah how they move how they train how they are they in control of food all these other health benefits like which is so then I could be having a completely wrong conversation with someone else I think, you know, like I said, and I think it's like when someone comes to you, right, what do you want to do?

What do you think is the most important thing right now to improve your health? Start there. And that could be changing your eating habits. So technically you could say it's dieting, but it could be something else, nothing to do with food. And I've had clients where they come to me,

we don't even look at food for the first few weeks, because I feel actually we're going to get more from this if we look at elsewhere and give you a lift first. And when you feel like, yeah, I'm moving, I'm feeling a bit better. Then we can go, right now, let's have a look at your diet, and let's try and change a couple of things. It's just working out what's the best for the individual

and making sure that they feel happy with what you're saying. You're suggesting. Like you said about finding out what it is that they actually want and what their why is, because some people will come to you saying that they want to lose weight, but what they're really saying, if you dig deep into that is I want to feel healthier and I want to feel good about myself.

Well, you might not need to change anything in their diet to do that because they're going from being inactive to move and going from not training to training, going from, you know, staying up all night to get an eight hour of sleep, having a glass of water in the morning, all these, like, health behaviours that will make them feel 10 times better

without actually changing anything. Yeah, you'll have worked with people. I was reading someone's checking from this morning, and they said, I'm not even fussed about the scale or weight loss anymore. I just feel really good as I am now. And you'll have worked with people like that, and it's just focusing on those behaviours

and what makes that feel healthier and happier is much more important. and some will finally realize that and then that's like, whoa, it's like a lightball moment. Like, I've been worried about what a number says on the scale for so long. And now I wake up and I'm like, I wear the clothes I want. I go do my walk every day.

I love my strength training. I love, you know, making meals of my family that we all enjoy that sort of support my goals with the kids life. And then I, yeah, this is what life's about, you know? Sometimes that's what they're saying, when they're saying, I want to lose a stone. But we're completely shouldn't think it has to be weight loss

will fix everything. Yeah. Sometimes it's movement. Yeah. But I think it's so ingrained in them that it's weight loss is the solution to their problem. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Last question I'll ask you, and then I'll let you go. What can, no, actually, I won't ask that question.

I'll ask, what are people, what's the one thing you see people getting wrong consistently when it comes to weight loss? It has to be jumping from one diet. I know we spoke about it, but it has to be jumping from one. diet to another because if you've been dieting for a period of time and you haven't found something that works, there's not going to be a magic diet that you've not discovered in the last few years. Yeah, you have to kind of dig deeper and whether that is working with someone, you know, that might be, but if you add up, I remember I worked someone from America and they were like, they weren't sure about investing in coaching. And I didn't tell them to do this, but they,

what made them sign up is they went, I've just added up all the money I've spent over the last couple years in all these diets and keto supplements and stuff like this and they were like it came to thousands of pounds and they were like actually I'm going to invest in you and you'll help me find you know the solution and it didn't involve you know anything silly or restricted so I think it's that it's just jumping from one thing to another and just realizing that you know that just makes you feel worse because you just feel like a failure I think yeah that is them getting trapped in that yo-yo diet cycle isn't it yeah and sometimes it's even they go back to the same diet because, well, initially they did.

It was like 10, 15 pounds on that diet. So then they're like, oh, well, that worked for me the last time. But did it really work for you because you're going back to it now because you've put back on the way? Yeah, definitely, definitely. All right. Listen, Josh, a pleasure as always to have you. Thanks for your time.

Before we jump off, if people want to find out a little bit more about you, about your work, where can they go to find you? Instagram is probably the best place. I have Facebook as well. just Joshua Hills nutrition on Instagram. And yeah, I hope they don't mind saying this car, but we spoke a bit about Mind for Leighton earlier. And there is a completely free training video on my bio

if you just want to download it for free. Just put your address and you'll get it free. So if you want to learn more about that side of things. Yeah. I was going to actually, I was actually going to say to you, I'm going to rob that and send it to my clients. I don't mind. I've told people, I think I say in the video,

this helps you send it to someone else. Yeah. I don't care. I'd rather, even if it just gets somebody to just think a little bit more or just become aware of something, then yeah, go for it. But yeah, thanks for having me on, I really appreciate it. And it's something that even I found valuable as well. So people would definitely get a lot of valuable. So take advantage of that. Joshua, thanks. I'll chat to you soon. Thanks very much. I really hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I did.

Joshua is one of these people that I truly respect in the industry because you can just tell from talking to him how much empathy he has for the people that he worked. works with and he has a much deeper understanding most people when it comes to these issues. So I think if we were all a little bit more like Joshua, the fitness industry would be a lot better place for everyone involved. So I hope you got a lot of value out of that episode and I will see you in the next one.