The Uneducated PT Podcast - Michelle Yates - Emotional Overeating

Episode Date: February 13, 2024

In this episode we speak to dietican Michelle Yates about all things disorder eating, emotional eating and binge eating.

Hello and welcome to the uneducated PT podcast with me, your host, Carlo Rourke. The goal of this podcast is to bring on interest and knowledgeable people from all walks of life, learn a little something from each conversation and for you, the listener, just learn something from each episode. So don't forget to subscribe to the channel, press the box below, show some support, and I'll see you on the next episode. Michelle, welcome to the programme first and foremost. Do you want to start by just introducing yourself to the group and just telling them a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. So I'm Michelle Yates. I'm a registered dietitian and I have my master's in health psychology. So I've really devoted my time as a professional to understanding eating disorders and disordered eating. That's really where my passion is. I live in Omaha, Nebraska.

Does anybody know where that is? It is, I mean, I'm from the States, but Nebraska is literally like if you were to throw a bull's eye dart and, yeah, like, I'm right in the middle. So I live in a bunch of cornfields, basically. I mean, it is a city, but it's pretty boring. I don't recommend. So anyway, you guys are from Ireland, right? Well, there's a lot of, there's a good few on the group who are from the States,

from San Diego and a few Canadians on as well. And then a lot of Irish as well, yeah. Amazing. Amazing. I have some Irish in my bloodline. So can I ask you? So how did you end up doing the work that you do now? What drove you to go down?

that room. Yeah, so I've always been interested in eating disorders, even like from high school. I remember being really interested in the topic. So I always wanted to end up in that field, but I also was struggling personally with my relationship with food and with my body at the same time. And I don't really think that I realized that I was. It was like, to me, I'm. I thought I was that I was really healthy and that, you know, I wanted to school to be, I wanted to go to school to be a dietitian so that I could understand what the perfect diet was. And I felt like I was already thinking about food and super interested in nutrition. So I might as well make it a career.

But I mean, hindsight that was coming from a disordered place. I just didn't really realize until I started truly studying the field and especially eating disorders. And I was like, oh, that's weird. That sounds like me. That's odd. I can't be right. But it was. And yeah, so I don't know.

It's like weird. I don't know exactly what made me passionate about the topic of eating disorders. If it was like a subconscious, like, you're struggling. Or maybe it was just an act of God being like, I'm going to put you in this field because you need help. I don't know. Well, does that knock out to show that even dietitians are people who, who know what they're doing? and understand the field can also struggle with these things. Yeah, and there's actually quite a high percentage of them.

Because even what I said about me feeling like, well, I'm already thinking about this all the time. So I might as well, like, go into the field and make it a career because I'll really enjoy that. I'm super interested in this topic. I think that's really common. And it's common for it to be coming from a disordered place. And I don't know the exact statistic, but I know that there is some literature out there that's like trying to look at and get a quick glimpse at how many dietetics professionals and nutrition professionals are struggling with disordered eating and it's kind of alarming. So it's a bummer,

but it makes sense when you think about it, why people would go into the field if they're already obsessive about it. So. And you talk a little bit about a disorder eating and then there'll be a lot of people on this program who are very new to all this might not even understand what a poor relationship or a good relationship with food looks like. So just in terms of disorderly and like what is it, how do we know when to look for it? Maybe if other people have maybe patterns of it or not. Yeah. So there's like, think of a spectrum of like if you've got one little anchor over here that's a normal healthy relationship with food. You don't really think about it a lot. You're just like you're mindful, but you're not obsessive. And then there's this.

little trajectory that leads us up to the other anchor of a clinical, diagnosable eating disorder, and all along that middle path there is disordered eating. And so it can look so different from person to person. And there's no like specific definition for disordered eating. It's just like it's not an eating disorder, but it's also not great. You know, so it's kind of like nebulous. But Generally speaking, I think a good place to start is like the eating disorder criteria from the diagnostic statistical manual for mental disorders is how we define an eating disorder, like any of those different ones. And there's a lot of different kinds.

A lot of people think it's just anorexia or bulimia, but there's truly a lot of different kinds. And if somebody, like for example, me, if I were to look at the criteria when I was in like, the height of my struggles for like anorexia. I would have met a lot of that criteria, but I wouldn't have met all of them. So I don't know that I would have gotten a diagnosis. That doesn't mean I wasn't struggling though.

Yeah. So that's where the term disordered eating comes in is it's like there's an abnormality in that person's relationship with food. Maybe they find themselves thinking about it all the time or they're purging from time to time, more they're generally really hyper focused on it or obsessive about it. So there could be some improvement.

They're not completely in a healthy place, but it's not a diagnosable disorder either. So it's just like this massive gray area. They can be really confusing. So the clients that you obviously work with, like they vary from problem to problem, but they have some sort of kind of a disorderly in behaviors. So where do these disorderly and behaviors come from generally from client to client? Or even from yourself previously struggling with this? Yeah.

Yeah, it's a good question because if we know where it comes from, then we can maybe try to prevent it for other people. I think a big part of it is culture. So environment. So the culture you're in is entirely uncontrollable for you, unless you completely move. but even then, I think every culture has their own ideal of what people's bodies should look like. But then also your environment in the sense of what you surround yourself by.

And again, some of that's controllable. Some of it's not. If you're a kid, you can't control where you're growing up, you know. Well, I've had a lot of clients come onto this program. I would even say things about, you know, how their parents would comment on, you know, the field that they have when they're growing up and how they've, that's been passed on to them. some of them might be in, you know, 10, 11, 12, you know, going into things like Weight Watchers and and so on and so forth. Exactly. And I think that's probably all, most of the things that I hear

for my clients are something to that extent where there was a really like key moment when they were in their impressionable years of like, yeah, 10, 11, 12, 13. And somebody made a comment about what it might not even even been to them, but it was to somebody. else or about somebody else and you just internalize that you know like somebody's being really nasty about someone who's overweight and saying how they need to hop on a treadmill and they need to stop eating hamburgers or something like that's just you internalize stuff like that and that's what I heard when I was a kid and I internalized that and was like well I guess I can never end up looking like that otherwise people are going to think that I need to hop on a treadmill and they're not going

to see anything else about me they're only going to see me from my body size you know So yeah, like the messages you get from parents and teachers and coaches and peers and even like television or media, social media now for the younger generation is super impressionable. So I presume that people who are struggling with these types of behaviors, disorderly in behaviors, there are people who kind of tend to chronically die. Is that something that you were doing in your past? Is it something that you see your clients doing? Like, how do you approach that or coach your clients through that? Yeah, and it depends on how you define the word diet. You know, some people, I feel like everybody defines it a little bit differently.

There's diet in the sense of just like your diet. Life style. Generally eat every day, right? Like it can be an adjective for describing your overall dietary patterns. And that's the traditional use of the word. But then there's also diet and the sense of being like avert. like you're going on a diet and you're restricting. And so everybody, you know, has a different way of defining what going on a diet looks like.

They might say like, oh, I track my macros, but I'm not dieting. But then like to somebody else that might be dieting, you know, just depends, I guess, on what you find distressing for you. I feel like dieting is typically distressing. You know, it seems to be like across the scope. So, yeah. Most of my clients have gone through the ringer of trying everything. Whether it was a diet or not, it was still some form of changing the way they eat to try and change the way they look.

And I think that's kind of like the defining factor there is if the motivation was to change the way they look. And can you explain why that might be a bad thing or negative? And again, it depends on the person. Some people can like focus on building muscle and it's no big deal. They just, it's fine. Like it doesn't really affect their quality of life or their mental health or anything. But I think for a lot of women in particular, and I don't want to say that men don't struggle with this. I just am a woman and I work with women so I can speak to it a little bit more. There's a lot of pressure to like look a certain way. And that way is pretty unrealistic. And so it's, it's tricky when we try to meet that standard because we so desperately want to be, like, accepted and viewed as attractive and find love and all the things. And so we'll just, like, try anything to get there. And so the problem with, like, changing the way, or wanting to change the way you look, I think it really comes down to, like, what your motivation for that is. If you just want to generally be healthier, like you want to take care of yourself, that appears to have a different effect than if you are trying to look better and you want, like, people to think you're attractive. Then we start to adopt all these really unhealthy things to try and reach that place.

If it's more so just about, like, I want to lose a little weight to just, like, take care of my health, then you can still adopt unhealthy things just if you have poor guidance or you don't know much about it. but I think generally speaking, the things that people do in order to get there, usually not as unhealthy as the things that we do to try and lose weight really quick so that we can look really hot in that dress for the wedding or whatever. I heard you talk about the difference between emotional eating and emotional overeating. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that? Because that's something that I hadn't heard before and I thought it was quite interesting. Yeah, I like to, and I can't take credit for her.

I can't remember where I saw it at first when somebody described it as emotional overeating, but I like to specify that sometimes, not all times, because sometimes people won't know what I'm talking about, but if I feel like people might know what I'm talking about, I'll use that phrase. And basically what I mean by that is emotional eating to some extent is not necessarily a bad thing. I think it gets a bad rep. and people are like, they immediately feel guilty if they go have a piece of chocolate after a hard day at work. They're like, oh my gosh, I'm emotional eating. Like, I'm such a mess.

It's like, bro, you just have like one piece of chocolate after a hard day at work. You're fine. Like, it's fine. You're going to be okay. Or if they have, like, cake for their birthday or something. Like, you could say that's emotional eating too because it's a positive emotion. Well, we only think about emotional eating in a negative sense when we talk about it. Yeah.

Exactly. So that's where I want to like create space with that phrase emotional eating that it can be okay sometimes. And it can be a positive thing. It can be to celebrate or to whatever, like enjoy time with your family. But then there's like it can definitely become an emotional coping mechanism and it's happening frequently. And it becomes something you rely on, which is where I like to use the phrase emotional overeating. You know, it's emotion related, but it's happening more often than it should. might be having a negative impact on your physical health and also your mental health.

It might be like holding you back from actually coping with those emotions and being able to work through them. So how do we coach clients out of using food as the only crutch for anything that they're dealing with? Well, the biggest thing is that they need to know what they're feeling and why. I think that's like the biggest thing with my clients is that they're like, they don't understand why they're turning to food. or what the primary emotion is that they're turning to it for.

A lot of times it's just like boredom or it's stress or it's like a common example or a common client that I work with is a working mom who's at work all day and then comes home and now she has to parent for the rest of the evening. And so then by the time the kids go to bed, she's finally got like that tiny little window to herself. And so she's like, I need to feel something. I need to feel nurtured. I need to feel like I get like I got a break or like I'm rejuvenated.

You know, like she wants to fill her cup because she's been emptying her cup constantly throughout the whole day. And so that's like a lot of times they don't realize that's what's going on is that they're using it as a way to like fill some sort of void or to feel. or to feel something that they want to feel. Because food, of course, like when we eat it, it's like pleasurable, releases dopamine, like it tastes good. It can relax us.

It can be like, it can feel even productive, you know, because you're like accomplishing something, like mechanically. But sometimes it's not what we truly need. What that mom probably needs is a vacation or like a day off or something or to get lost in a book that she finds really interesting. Can you explain the difference for for anyone on this program who might not know? Like I know people will use the term emotionally and overeating and I'm bingy and kind of in the same term. So when you work with clients who bingy like how would you categorize that?

Yeah. So binge eating from a clinical sense is it's going to be an amount of food that is definitely more than anybody else would eat in that same circumstance in a short amount of time usually about two hours or less and of course that's not like an amazing definition because what you think is more than anybody else what in that circumstance maybe from what someone else thinks so it's not perfect but it's something to go off of and then there's also has to be a sense of losing control like they're not really fully in control so it is used casually a lot though people will say like oh i binge or whatever and they didn't really lose control or they didn't really eat more than somebody else would in that same circumstance but to them

it feels like a binge and so you know it's like well whatever like you you described it that way so that means there's something off and we still need to address it you know yeah um i wanted to just read out a few uh quotes of yours that i like that and if you were able to just kind of um touch on them a little bit more. So one thing that you said was food was my enemy enemy in my mind. If I could just control what I was eating and how much I exercised, then I would have the perfect body that made others value me. Can you touch a little bit more on that? Yeah. Well, going back to what I said about like, you know, as a kid, you hear people say if someone's in a larger body that they need to like go exercise more. They need to just have eating fast food or whatever.

whatever. And I grew up in a family that like I heard messages like that a lot. I love my family and they're they're great. I had objectively great childhood, but still like those were the things that I was hearing about that little tiny corner of my life and corner of my brain. And and then also like what you hear from friends and what I saw on TV and stuff. So for me as a young kid and I was a dancer as well. So there's a lot of pressure as a dance. to look a certain way. I, it for me, it wasn't so much about being attractive or being like, like getting attention from boys or something, even though, of course, I loved attention from boys,

but as a high schooler. But it was more so about I want people to respect me. I want to be seen and valued. And if I let my body look a certain way, if I let myself go, then people will not value me or hear me or respect me. And so for me, that's like a core desire of mine is to be respected. And I, you know, like I've gone to therapy for it and everything. But as a kid, like that for me was like the connection I made. Like, oh, I have to look a certain way in order to be respected. So, yeah, food. I mean, when you're a kid and you don't really understand,

and how nuanced your body is and what makes your body look the way it looks. It looks. You think that food is like food and exercise, the only two things that impact the way that your body looks or what it weighs. So for me, it was like, okay, you know, it's 80% diet, 20% exercise. Like I got a crack down on this, you know, and then I'll be able to manipulate my body to look the way I want it to look. So that kind of that that that leads me on to another quote of girls that I liked and it said there less about the food it's it was less about the food and more about unmet needs.

Right. Yeah. So for me in that case, it was like I wanted to feel respected. I wanted to feel like I was valued and people heard me and saw me and cared about what I thought, you know. And and then going back to the example of like the working mom who's coming home after a long day. she just really needs to feel nurtured and relaxed and like someone's caring for her, even if she just has to care for herself in some way, you know? And yeah, I mean, most situations where somebody, I mean, I can't think of one situation where it's not about unmet needs. It's just that that need can be different for everybody. It can be that you want to feel valued like I did or that you do want to feel like you're worthy of love. That's a big one.

What is one of the, what is some of the most common or some of the worst advice that you hear from people online when it comes to trying to prevent or stop or reduce emotionally? My gosh, so many things. Pretty much everything online is garbage. Except for Carl's account. I can say like, I mean, there's just like a lot of. I feel like there's a lot of bro nutrition guys that are like, you just need more willpower, bro, or like, you just need to like. Just stop eating.

Yeah, just stop eating. Or like, yeah, I feel like the biggest one is that people are like, you just want, you, you must not want it bad enough. Like, it's like, it's such a manipulative thing to say. And I don't think a single person who has ever struggled with a mom. emotional overeating or binge eating has ever not wanted to not struggle with that thing or has ever not tried to stop with, you know, avoiding food or going on a diet. And speaking of diets, I feel like fasting is terrible advice too when it comes to binge eating. People think that if they just give themselves a time on the clock where they're not allowed to eat, that that will magically fix all their issues. because maybe they usually eat it, binge eat at 7 p.m.

So I'm just gonna fast from 6 p.m. till 10 a.m. the next day. And then I won't have the option. It's like you still have the option. The food is there. Like it's just this arbitrary rule that you made up, you know? Yeah, it hasn't worked yet, even though you keep attempting to do it. Yeah.

Another one that I really liked from you was that it's a common trap that working out becomes less about health or joy and more about chasing a body standard. The truth is obsessing over your body doesn't just steal your mental peace. It can rob you of the ability to truly reap the benefits of moving your body.

How important is it that like you just essentially touched on there is that when we exercise, especially if you have like poor body image and a poor relationship with food that we

approach it and look at from a point of, you know, performance over aesthetics and, you know, movement because you enjoy it, rather than trying to come from a place of punishment because you hate how you look. Yeah. I think it's huge because movement is going to be unsustainable if it's all about changing the way that you look and coming from, well, I don't want to say changing the way you look. I want to say coming from a place of punishing yourself because. That's like a really negative motivation.

And it's coming from a place of almost like shame and guilt and blame. And yeah, I mean, you're more likely to stick with something if you enjoy it. And if you feel like good about it and you like doing it, then if you're like guilting yourself into it, you know. And it's just like, I think when you're trying to, to punish yourself or shrink yourself to look like the perfect body, you can start to get kind of dangerous too with your exercise habits and over exercise and then under eat or do things that maybe aren't great on your joints for you specifically or yeah, again, like just things

you don't like. And then you run yourself into the ground. Like I remember hearing all the time that like or getting the impression that if I, if I did two a days that I was like super legit you know if I worked out twice a day then I was super legit again for me I was like oh that gets me a badge of respect for some people and and then I'll get super ripped super fast but and I'm not like I don't have a degree in exercise science or anything but I feel like working out twice a day every day for the rest of your life is probably not great on your body so it's just it doesn't it doesn't leave you what much of a life

or does it? No, no, and that's the thing. Like, oh my gosh, quality of life. Like, can we talk about that? And can we talk about, like, how your world is not all about how you look. At some point, I hate to say this, you guys, but at some point, every single one of us is going to die. That's just the reality. That is the one guarantee of being a human is that you will die. And so it's, it's like, do we really want to spend our whole life obsessing about how we look? because in 20 years we're going to look vastly different anyway. It's just going to happen. Or we might not even be here anymore.

So it's just like you got to zoom out a bit and be like, what do I actually? Like yes, take care of your body. But don't like make your whole identity about your body. It's just no way to live. Is it really difficult for people because like the action and the behavior is the same. The action and the behavior is training and exercising. but the perception or the mindset around how you do it is like okay I'm doing this because

you know I feel great after I do and it puts me in a better mood and I show up as a better person versus you know I'm doing this because I hate how I look and I want to hate myself into change or I want people to you know respect and love me like when you're in it I'm sure like you can't really tell the difference because in your head it's just yeah I'm exercising but like

and again the and the behaviors are the same, but your mindset around it is completely different. And then you have to try and figure that out. Am I doing this from a from a place of shame and guilt and or am I doing this for the enjoyment of it? Yeah, exactly. And like one of those people is happy and one of them is unhappy. You know, I'm like, what do you really want? Do you want to be happy or miserable?

I will open the floor to anyone who wants to ask a question. so if you don't ask a question I'm just going to call you out so if anyone has a question you can just unmute yourself and go for it you might as well make the most of Michelle's time

while you have her here because you might as well take that opportunity I think I'll actually just call out Chloe to start off with I was actually going to unmute myself Carl there you go so they're all getting braver on on Zoom Michelle

Hey Michelle how are you? Good, nice meeting I was just wondering like I am a new mom my little girl is 18 months old and thank you and just my history like I've spent my whole entire life kind of emotionally eating hate and the way I look even though like I've been a size eight I've been you know like a whole spectrum of sizes but I was just never ever happy um but I was just wondering if you'd have any advice on how to kind of switch that mindset like I'm working on it but just any advice like towards how to like kind of get out of the emotional eating circle.

Yeah. It is hard. It is hard. It is for sure. Well, do you feel like when you do emotionally eat, can you identify like a primary emotion that's happening during that time? I think it's more so like what you were saying, like you've had a tough day you deserve. of it. Like, I don't even want it. Do you know what I mean? Like, I, and the minute I eat it, I feel

guilty. Do you know, it's because it's more so, like, a reward. Yeah. But I don't really want that. It's just my, it's just my history of my relationship with food will always bring me back to food. Like, I know I could, like, reward myself in a totally different way, but it's just, it's instilled in my brain that it needs to be food. Yeah. Why? Like I hate the way I look because I always bring myself to food.

It's just trying to switch myself to kind of do something different. And I hate saying that I hate myself. I hate saying that. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. And I think there's so many people that would relate to you. You know, and I relate to you. That's how I used to feel.

And it sucks. And I think like the worst thing you can do for yourself is give yourself a guilt trip about that. And like, you're like, oh, I shouldn't be doing this. I shouldn't be doing this. I hate the way it look. This is just going to make it worse. And like this might sound kind of unconventional and crazy, but I feel like one of the biggest things that's almost like a little key to unlocking the whole new world is just giving yourself grace and being like, you know, what, I've had a hard day. I can recognize that this is my habitual response to having a long day,

and I really want to just reward myself. And I don't like the way I look, so I feel like I shouldn't be doing this. But how about I just recognize that I'm human. And, you know, like these beauty standards that I'm trying to live up to are probably not realistic. And what matters is that like my baby girl is healthy and she loves her mom and I love her and I want to take care of myself so I can take care of her. And so like how can I take care of myself in this moment that will take care of me in the long term too, you know? And that's like the hardest part in those moments is because we're only thinking of the short term, you know, like instant gratification. I think we're so used to that with like our phones and everything is just instant gratification. And so it's like it takes work to practice

thinking in the long term. It's like an exercise you have to train or a muscle you have to train is like zooming out again like I said earlier and thinking about like what do I want the long term effect to be of my actions right now, you know? And is this really going to help me and it's okay if it will like if it's genuinely the only thing that's going to make me feel better then I'm going to do it and I'm going to do it without shaming myself yeah but there's maybe something else that will make me feel better maybe I should try that and see what happens yeah thank you yeah yeah and I would just add on that as well and I think I said this to Chloe before I said it to someone anyway I was like like beating yourself up about food hasn't worked for you yeah so right I got something

to think about that maybe trying a different approach where you give yourself unconditional permission and you do it without guilt means that okay you're very easily able to then you know get on with your day and then do the health seeking behaviors that are going to make you feel better in the long run anyway because you're not stuck in this you know bubble of shame and guilt and frustration about yourself yeah exactly um i am going to let kirsten jump on and ask a So I don't really have a question, but I have an eating disorder. So your explanation at the beginning of how there's kind of like that fine line, like mine didn't get diagnosed until a couple years ago because a lot of doctors were just like, oh, you're stress eating.

So having that like explanation kind of made things click for me about like why I was, I was kind of ignored for so long and how it kind of ended up getting worse. But just that clarification was really helpful, I think, for me. Good. I'm glad. It can be frustrating because you're like, I'm pretty sure I have a problem, though, but you're just like writing me out because you're not meeting like all the ticks, you know? And then which can be difficult for being on the receiving end of that because then you're like,

well, I guess maybe I'm not that bad or like maybe I'm not that sick. Like maybe what I'm doing is fine, and then you just continue the behaviors. And then it does get bad enough. So it is frustrating. I wish there was a little bit more like investigation in the doctor's office about people's relationship with food. But they only have like five minutes with you usually. So like it is what it is.

But yeah, thanks for sharing that. Lisa, do you have a question? Yeah, I actually, I do have a question. It's more just about like. I don't have a bad relationship of food. I just, if I have, like, night out on the weekend or something, I try and, like, bank my calories. So I'm trying to, like, is that a good thing to do?

Like, you know, because I feel like when I do it, I'm like, oh, like, I'm not eating as much today because I'm trying to save my calories for the weekend so I can drink the extra drink or have the pizza at the end of the night. Is it a good thing to do like that? Or is that kind of turning into, like, bad foods, like, I think it can be a slippery slope. I don't want to say it'll always lead you to the bottom of the slope, but it can be slippery.

So I think what I'm curious about is like the days that you're saving up the calories for like the weekend or whatever. How do those days normally go for you? Like are you really hungry? Are you like miserable? Is there any, like, feelings that you have as you're trying to cut back those calories during that? I'd probably be a bit more low. Like, my mood would be lower because I'm like, oh, like, I really wants to have, like, a nice meal for my dinner. But, like, I'm trying to, like, save that extra of 100 calories kind of.

So, yeah, I would notice my mood would be a bit lower. Yeah. Yeah. So what can happen is that it becomes, like, well, for one thing, it can get. worse and worse and worse, you know, where you're like cutting out more in order to earn more. And then it's like before you know it, you've just got like planned benches, you know. And I'm not saying that you'll get to that point necessarily. But it can make it more difficult on the days that you've like, like the weekend when you're

allowed to like eat the things that you've saved up for to really enjoy those things. because it's now more so about like, I've earned this, now I can finally eat it. And it's like almost when you're like, if you think about starting a race and everybody is like at the, at the starting line, you know, and you're like waiting and waiting and waiting. And then the gunshot goes off and then they take off. It's just about taking off into eating those calories you've been waiting for rather than enjoying them in the first place. You know, do you relate to that? Do you feel like that's true for you? Yeah.

Okay. Even then when I've saved up the calories, I'm like, I'm actually not looking, I'm not looking forward to this. I'm not really enjoying it. That kind of, yeah. Which then can end up, you can end up eating calories that you don't even, maybe you didn't need in the first place because you didn't enjoy it and it wasn't actually adding to your quality of life.

So it, yeah, I would like play with maybe like not earning or like banking the calories. and see how the weekend goes for you, because it's not that you can't eat those foods, just like give yourself a chance to really be more mindful of those food and enjoy them, and maybe you won't even eat as much of them, you know, because now you've had a decent amount.

I'm trying to start from scratch then on Monday. I'm like, okay, now I need to get back into eating the white calories, and I'm like, it's messing with my mindset then. Well, there you go. There's your answer. If it's messing with you. probably not working for you. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Lucy, do you have a question or any insights that you want to. Hi, can you hear me? I can. Hi. Hi. Well, I wouldn't

necessarily, I don't know if I've got a question as such, but some observations, perhaps. I was really interested with what you said about you were eating to feel respected and valued but and um i can totally i sorry not eating to feel respect to value rather but i also i i can feel that but also sometimes i think i eat or have over eaten in the past um to make myself invisible does that makes you know almost like an armor absolutely do you sorry i'm probably not i'm really bad at this i'm not very good at explaining myself in these I absolutely know what you mean. I totally know what you mean. Yep. But yeah, so I don't know. Do you, I guess, sorry, one of my children's just walking downstairs.

Do you, would you have any advice for someone who kind of flip-prop both ways, really, from, you know, you know, sort of really watching what I ate to lose weight at sometimes and other times and other times just really, really kind of just not caring or doing it to kind of, yeah, make myself feel invisible or to put like a farmer around me kind of thing. Yeah. Well, I think it's important to dig into the, like, why do you feel like you need to be invisible? What are you running from? or who do you want to not see you?

You know, which that can be like where therapy is really useful. I've had clients in the past where, you know, they were like survivors of sexual assault or sexual trauma. And so that was for them, like turning to food and overeating and gaining weight was a way to protect them from potential assault. the future because they didn't want to be desirable. They didn't want to be a target. And of course, this is always subconscious. You know, it's never like at the front of your mind that that's what's happening.

But it can happen a lot. That's super common. I don't know if that's like a part of your story or anything, but I think regardless, it's important to think about where is this coming from? Like, why do I feel the need to not be seen or to be seen? You know, what's the underlying motivation there? Yeah, and therapist can be really key for that, for sure.

They're very well-trained in getting to those issues, yeah. Thank you, Michelle. I really appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for sharing. Like you said, a lot of the time has nothing to do with the field itself. I put up on Instagram about that study on women who have been sexually assaulted when they were younger and the links between that and obesity.

I got really abused online by women. How dare you talk about this? I know, yeah, I know. Ashling, do you have any, I'm going to call Ashley out because she's on the call. So do you have any questions that you want to ask? I actually do. Hi, Michelle.

Nice to meet you. Hi. Nice to meet you too. So normally like in the evenings, just say it's like a weekend. and like you're not doing anything like one of the evenings and like I've had my dinner I'll be full

but I want to order like a takeaway anyway I'll still want to keep eating like I'm a smoker as well so like I would either do one thing like go out for a smoke and I try to suppress like the hunger

or I would still order takeaway for some reason and I was I was going to ask question anyway because you were like oh am I just bored and do I need to be doing something like even when I order it

I don't even really eat much of it but it's kind of like I just want to order the food or I want to there so I was like do you know how to like switch off that thing in your head that's like okay I want to like just keep eating if you get me even though like

yeah you may not be hungry yeah does that make sense no totally totally Yeah, there's like a few different things that could be going on that motivates you to do that. So I think that's important to understand like what what's going on underneath the surface there that might cause you want to do that. Is there like, do you have like a history of food insecurity at all? Like was there a time in your life where food wasn't necessarily always available to you? Yeah, like I've always like love food.

I think I've like probably gotten to a little bit more like because I'm like I'm really really tall. So when I was younger I was like really skinny and then everyone was like going to do you know that thing like oh you're tall your grand like you can gain loads weight that kind of thing it won't show on you and then you kind of get older and like okay well it's it's showing now. Yeah. So I don't know if you lied to me. Yeah. Yeah. You lied to me like why do you know. But. But yeah, I think when I was younger, I probably didn't have it. And then now I'm kind of like, oh, I have the money to buy it. So I might as well just keep buying it and buying it. But yeah, as you said, it's probably someone like subconsciously that you need to get to the root of.

Of course, we're on that track at the minute. Yeah, yeah. Well, I brought that up because that can be something sometimes for people is like, now that they have accessibility to food, they can get it whenever they want. It's like, it's like, it's like, a reminder of safety for them. Like I feel safe when I have food around because I felt unsafe when I didn't, you know. But that might not necessarily be what's going on.

It could be even just a sense of like I want to treat myself or I want to like reward myself or another thing too is sometimes that can happen or you can still want to continue eating after objectively you're like I'm pretty sure I'm full. I'm pretty sure I've had enough food but I still want more. It could be that you just genuinely haven't eaten enough during the whole day. Like I know a lot of people who will skip breakfast and they'll have like a protein shake for lunch and then dinner rolls around and they're like, why can't I stop eating? And it's like, well, because you've been like avoiding all of the calories that you need for the day and now you've got this little window before you get to go to bed to fit it all in. So even though your stomach might be full

from the volume of the food, you're still catching up on calories for the whole day. So you're still drawn to food, even though that physical fullness is there. So that can be it too. That's an extreme example, but you might be having like some micro examples of that are going on or something. Yeah. It makes really good sense. Yeah. I think. I was trying to have been getting me to eat breakfast for the last five months. I would agree with them. You should eat breakfast. Yeah, that makes sense.

That makes sense. Thank you, everyone. Yeah, you're welcome. They think I just say for the good of me health to none of it. Nicole, do you want to jump in and ask a question? Hi, Michelle. I guess my question, I kind of had, I was trying to think, like, what am I going to ask? I think it was two, but I think you kind of answered one.

So like yesterday was the Super Bowl, and I was banking calories. I did eat, I had protein shake, banana, whatever in the morning, but I was kind of waiting because I knew once I got to the Super Bowl party, there was going to be like all these snacks. But I did find myself eating probably more than I should have, but it was probably because I didn't eat enough, like throughout the day. But you kind of already talked about that part. Yeah, yeah.

I would be shocked if you had like eaten the normal amount for breakfast and lunch, if you would have had that same experience, you know. Yeah. And I just want to, I just want to clarify my position that I have never once held at the end of high calories. Okay, just, I just want to put that out there for my own reputation that I actually encourage you to eat.

fucking failed. You do. To your credit, Carl, you do tell us to, but I think that's like years, like Michelle said, years of being like programmed to count calories and count points or count this or count that.

We're like constantly counting or accounting for things. I think the other thing as far as I know I've talked to Carl about like giving yourself grace for eating foods or things. Mine is my three o'clock chocolate or whatever. that I eat at work.

But I have my cousin's family living with me right now. They lost their house in the California flooding. And so they're staying with me and they have three kids. So there are, there is sugary cereals, there's soda, there's cookies or biscuits in the house. There's chips slash crisps in the house. there's all the things in the house that I never buy. Like I usually try to set up my environment to be, you know, successful or avoidant or however you want to call it. But I never carry those things in my house.

And right now they're all there. Like all the kid foods, all the sugary foods, everything's in the house. And part of me, I'm like, yeah, I'm. I'm happy that I haven't totally succumbed to eating everything. Like I don't have the desire to like I gave up soda a while ago. But I found that they brought cherry Coke in and Cherry Coke is like the one that I can't say no to. So I had a couple glasses of Cherry Coke. And I'm literally like pouring the glass and I'm like, I shouldn't be drinking this.

This is going to set me like back. And I was trying to be like, no. like a fucking cup of Coke is not going to like sent me back like you know it's not that bad yeah um but just working on that grace has been very helpful um and i have not had the cereal um the chips honestly or the crisps do not even like i'm not even drawn to those um unless it's a certain time of the month but like it's not so i'm i'm not being drawn to those um so it's been almost like you know uh I don't think I've ever had a diagnosed disorder or anything, but I have had a bad relationship with food.

And it was almost like, I feel like this is almost like a test, like putting the drugs in front of me. And, you know, how am I reacting? Can I say no? But then I'm like, that's being very overdramatic. And maybe I should just like eat what I need to eat and keep it moving. So I've kind of been, that's the zone I've been in lately. Yeah. If you have any advice for that situation.

I feel like you're like almost like unsteady. Like can I really do this or like. Yeah. Well, and to your point about like the Coke, like the glass of Coke. Yeah. One glass is not going to like immediately send you into a diabetic coma or something. You know, like there's room in your diet and in your life to enjoy things. Like, I think we are so easily all or nothing about our nutrition and our diet that we think

if this is like the healthy side of things, we should only be on that side and we should never go over to the unhealthiest side and have any of those things. Otherwise, it ruins all the progress of eating healthy. But I don't know like any self-respecting, and Carl, Carl, you can speak to this too, like, professional that would agree that you have to eat perfectly all the time. Otherwise, your health is at risk. You know, like, I think everybody can agree that there's margin for enjoying fun foods. Would you agree, Carl? Yeah, 100%. And one thing that I want to touch on there as well, and I want to ask Michelle about that, like you said about even, you know, I don't actually like

crisps, but I do like this. And like, I'm, I'm sure that's probably a really important aspect as well, that a lot of you become very mindful when you're actually consuming foods like slowing down and actually you know ask yourself you know do I actually enjoy this food and if I do enjoy this food why wouldn't I keep it in like I have chocolate every night

because I enjoy chocolate I don't really I don't really like crisps that much so like unless I'm not actually listening to you know my fullness cues and and my taste buds and what I actually enjoy you know we can find ourselves you know mindlessly in things

like that that we don't actually enjoy or, you know, there's no value around it. Whereas if you can kind of slow down and listen to listen to yourself and also give yourself back yourself that you can, you know, have control over the meals that you're eating. I think then you'll start to trust yourself a little bit more and you can allow to have them foods in the household without kind of freaking out. I agree. There's a lot of people that, I've worked with that I'll challenge them to get a food that they typically feel like they can't control themselves around or like a scary food or a fear food and I'll have them like not when they're hungry. I try to have them approach that food from a normal state like a neutral state

and I'll have them sit down and just be like almost annoyingly mindful while they eat that food and asked themselves like a bigillion questions about it. And then like 50% of the time, they're like, so I did that and I discovered that I actually don't even like this food, but it's always been like a binge food for me. And it's because there was some sort of aura around it about being forbidden or that somebody else really liked it or it was associated with an occasion for them or a feeling for them. And then they actually ask themselves, do I really like this though? And they're like, I actually don't like this.

So, and that's not always, that's not the goal of that. The goal of that is to figure out you might like it too. And in that case, make it worth it, you know, enjoy it. And if you do enjoy it, you're likely to stop sooner because you get satisfied. Yeah. And you don't want to live your life, you know, being terrified to have snacks in the drawer because you think that once you start, you can't stop and you're addicted to these foods and so on and so forth. And a lot of time it probably is that you're just hired underfed and then you go for that.

And you know, your body's screaming out for energy because you haven't fed any energy all day because you're not having breakfast like I told you to have. Or your banking galleries. Yeah, exactly. Annie, do you want to jump in? I know you're only a new one to the program and maybe you could talk to a little bit to Michelle about, you know, why you joined and what you might be struggling with. And if you have any questions,

I'll have to unmute you here. So ask to unmute. There you go. Okay. Hi, Michelle. Hi, how are you? So I'm good. I'm running new.

But I don't know. I suppose you said loads of things, really, that kind of got me, that are reasons for me to join this group. But like some of the things that, I suppose I'm one of the older ones, if you like. So now I'm more into preserving my body and being able to move more than sees up and look gorgeous.

And as I said, this never going to happen again. I have accepted that now. This part of my life is over. So I don't have that, you know, oh, I have to look good and this and have. Well, obviously I do, but not to the same extent that the youth of today do, if you like. But I do have things where, like, so I'm only two days on this program, two days properly, if you like. And like, I'm not hungry on it in fairness, which is great because it tells me that I'm not hungry, but at night time it's like

it's just like given I have to eat when I'm watching TV and last night I found it very difficult because I was watching a series of Netflix things and I was um I was trying my best not to eat now I didn't

and I chose you could do it but the other thing I find hard is and people probably don't even realize this but people comment on what I eat they say to me like where do you put it? Jesus Christ how are you still hungry and I might not be

but I'm still not being but I'm still eating. Now, I don't drink, so I love going out for meals, but like, I go on holidays with the girls, and they'll all have their few little drinks, but while they're having their few little drinks, I'm the one having the dessert or the nibbles

or the, because I kind of feel I have to be doing something. I don't know. I don't know. I remember once a nurse saying to me, you're not addicted to coffee or addicted to drinking as in drinking the coffee, rather than the caffeine because I drink deep coffee. I think it's the same with food.

For me, I'm addicted to having something in my mouth if you like or I know that sounds funny. Yeah. It feels like productive and like you're doing something. And then like today I went out so my husband had a little procedure and I was picking him out from hospital and on the way in I bought cakes right now. I'm not a mad cake person but I specifically, I'm very proud of this fact. I actually bought curry cake because I hate it so that I wouldn't be able to eat cake with them. Now that's a big one for me because normally I'd buy a box of assorted cakes and I'd say, oh, fuck, just

have one of them or a little bit of it or, you know, but that little bit, I always finished it. So I purposely didn't buy a cake that I liked today, so I knew I wouldn't eat it in case I didn't have the willpower, you know? Yeah. Look, it is coming together. A lot of

what Carla said so far, a lot of what you're saying, it does, it resonates with me, like it makes sense, it's, I definitely think we've all had this, not eating disorder, but disordered eating to our life, but we just don't recognize. Well, I particularly didn't recognize it if you like, but I've also recognized that I'm all or nothing. So no matter what it is, you know, I either same of fags, same as alcohol, whatever, I'd have to give up alcohol because I drink

or because I'd smoke, do you know what I mean? Yeah. All are nothing with me and it's the same with food. So yeah. Yeah, with like the couple of thoughts that I had when you're, watching something at night or a show or whatever and you feel like you have to eat. It could be that you just have a hard time like being still. Does that resonate with you at all? Yeah. Yeah. So what if you found something else to do with your hands, like draw or color?

There's like a lot of like sensory things that are out there that can just be like a mindless, satisfying thing for you to do with your hands while you're engaged in something else. I don't know if that is something you'd want to try. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. People are really into crocheting or knitting. It's not really my thing, but it could be something we're trying. I don't know if it's my night or whatever.

But I find that can be helpful for people that just struggle with being still. But it also might be an invitation for you to practice being still. That might be something you really do need to do is be a little bit like slowed down, in your life because I think it's really easy for us to just go, go, go. And even when we're like resting or relaxing by watching something, we're so used to being so busy that that feels like we're being useless. So we have to still like we have to make it worth it by multitasking, you know. So anyway, somebody said a fidget spinner.

That's a good idea too. But that might be something to try is just like, switch your activity while watching TV to something different, even if it's just like stretching or something, that could be useful too. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I'd be curious to see how that helped. Did you have any other thoughts on that, Carl? Yeah, I was just going to jump in and say also, like, I think one thing we have to remind ourselves, again, and he's only two days into the program. And, you know, when you start going on your health and fitness journey or your transformation journey or whatever, the tendency is to continue to look at all the things that you need to take out and restrict them and, you know, and not have the cakes because you can't trust yourselves around them. And what I would hope that we start to do over the next couple of months is instead of looking in that area, we're constantly looking at what we can add in rather than what we can restrict, like be a pencil with your diet rather than an erase.

and being like, okay, you know, we're adding in more frequent meals and we're adding in more protein and, you know, we're getting out for more walks, we're moving our body more. And like a lot of the progress that you want to make in terms of feeling better can come from that without ever having to, you know, worry about you not being able to enjoy a slice of cake or whatever your favourite cake is. Yeah, I love that. Hema, do you have a question that you want to ask if you're able to talk? I think you might be in work, are you?

Oh, I'm at work, but no, I'm, I am listening now that you let me in. Sorry, my. Hi, Michelle. Hi. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Yeah, I was just, you know, some of the things that Annie was saying and some of the others just resonate. Nothing specifically to ask, but I think what I would say in support of my fellow transformationists, I just made up.

board would be that, you know, I used to be that all or none, right? And, you know, there's a bit of perfectionism that goes with that, not a bit. I think that that foundationally is exactly what it is. It's that if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it all the way or I'm not going to bother it all. And so one of the things that I've learned around mindset, both through this program and other things that I do is that just doing something is better than not doing anything, right? And that even doing that something, though it's not great, the first time or the second time or the third time, that eventually the habit will form. And I think that's the greatest benefit that I gleaned from the program is around the habit forming bit. That's

Starting off small is okay. And like if you look at my stats, I'm probably like the least successful on this program. I mean, that's what I would venture to guess from the point of fat loss and, you know, change in body shape and that kind of thing. But from the point of view of habit forming and mindset, I feel that there's, I've built in a longevity. into my day that will sustain beyond the end of the program. And that's that's a good thing, even if it comes in these small tips of right, like don't, don't restrict,

just to figure out what you can replace with or add in. Or, you know, my big thing is working out and making love to metal. Like I fucking hate it. But I do it. I go to the gym and I feel super successful. And I've always been a gym goer. I'm a fitness instructor.

Like I do this shit, but I don't like metal. I hate it. And so I've just come to learn to love the feeling after the fact. So no question directly. Just what I've learned in six months of having been enrolled in the program is those small things that I've been able to incorporate in the day that I know over time will build into something that's visible to. everyone else. I feel it day over day. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, I enjoyed that as well. Sorry, I was just going to say, you know, like, it's that imperfect

action. I would argue, like, it's, it's harder for someone to decide that they're going to go from like 2,000 steps to 4,000 steps rather than someone being like, oh, yeah, I'm going to hit 10,000 steps every day and be perfect. Because, like, it's that, like you said, black or white, all or nothing it's the I'm going to do something every day even if it's not perfect that is going to be the driver of change for you yeah I agree I mean it sounds like you guys are getting a really good foundation which is what I do with my clients too like I'm like hey I'm not going to like solve all your problems in a week we're going to take four months to lay a foundation for the rest of your life like you are saying like you have all of these little things that have added up to

longevity of change which is what matters you know I feel like if you guys were in this program with Carl and like have these instant like quick fat loss results, it probably would mean that it wasn't going to last. You know, I feel like things like that just generally aren't sustainable and that would be a bad thing. And I'd be reporting Carl to whatever his governing. Just kidding. I wouldn't do that. I might. But she is absolutely right.

Like if if I was to sit here and say, oh, yeah, we're going to solve all your problems in four weeks. And, you know, the faster the results or the faster you want change, the more extreme it's probably going to be. And the problem is that, you know, extremes are easy. It's moderation and balance and longevity and turning it into a lifestyle. That's difficult. Right. So like, okay, right. We'll go one more.

And then we'll wrap it up. And I'm going to call out Annalisa. I don't really have much more to add, I don't think. But nice to meet you, Michelle. You too. For me, my, and I think I can't say that like I did have some big breakthroughs though last week. But for me, it's going through a different transition of life. Like I'm in my 40s now. And I used to be like I was always really, really active growing up. I was a dancer. and there was always that, you know, healthy relationship with food. But then heading into my 40s, all of a sudden, like, your life flips upside down. You're gaining weight.

You're, like, I think I gain a pound when I drink a glass of water. Like, you can't, like, really control it. So I think maybe just advice on having more healthy body positivity. But like I said, I think last week was really good because I all of a sudden was, like, noticing muscles in places that didn't exist before. so, but I still struggle with the whole positive body image stuff. Totally, yes. And I'm glad you brought that up.

I think the hard thing about body positivity is that for a lot of women and men, it's kind of unrealistic to go from a place of like always coming up with everything that's wrong with yourself, or in other words, body hate or body negativity, to then try and be body positive is like it's forced what's that it's it's just forced it's not yeah it's this huge jump from i hate myself to i'm obsessed with myself and it's generally just kind of unrealistic and and as much as like you can look at yourself in the mirror and be like i love myself i love myself i love myself sometimes it just like doesn't land because you don't really that's not what you needed to hear And so I find that generally speaking, it's way better or way more realistic and useful to just shoot for being more neutral about yourself.

Because even though it's not necessarily like lovey-dovey positive, it's still a lack of negativity to be neutral. So instead of trying to like come up with all these reasons why you're obsessed with yourself, just being more like almost utilitarian about your body. Like my body is, my body has served me today by working or like being able to go on this walk is really great. Like I'm so glad I have legs that can help me to walk or I'm so glad that I have a body that's prevented me from getting cancer or something. Like, I don't know. Like just come up with things that you can agree with that are not negative, you know,

and that you can respect your body a little bit more for those were bad examples but yeah like something that's not something that's you can agree with yeah i agree with that so what what i try to get them to do is even sometimes we do like journal sessions every week and we might do things like uh negative reframes and like oh i you know i hate how my legs look but at least you know i have two working legs that mean i can go to the gym or i can go running or can go over a hike which i enjoy doing that. And like it doesn't mean that you're saying, oh, I love my legs and not really believe in it. But at least you're, you are coming from that neutral space with it. Yeah. Yeah. It needs to be something that you're actually like on board with. And at least thanks for that. Okay.

Listen, that was unbelievable, Michelle. I'm very, very grateful to have you on the program and to be able to talk to our clients and give such amazing feedback and advice to them. I know they really appreciate. I appreciate just all coming on and taking the time. I know you're all very busy. So, you know, they wanted to come on and to have a chat with you and to speak to you. I think what you do is unbelievable. And I would recommend, I was listening to your podcast over the last few days. I would also recommend that to any of the clients that want to continue to improve their relationship with food and to just get more insights.

It's a great way to go about it. So thank you again for giving us your hour. I really appreciate it. Oh, I appreciate you. you guys. This is a great group and thanks to everybody for, you know, sharing a little bit of your stories with me today and being so kind to have me. It's just a great group. We've got a good thing going here, Carl. Thanks for watching. If you like that episode and you want to see more content like this, make sure you're subscribed and I'll see you on the next one.