The Wealthy Barber Podcast - #38 — Melissa Leong: Money Should Support Happiness, Not Compete With It

Episode Date: January 6, 2026

Our guest this episode is Melissa Leong — national media personality, a sought-after speaker and award-winning author of the feel-good finance guide “Happy Go Money.” Melissa has been the resident money expert on Canada’s leading daytime talk show “The Social” for 14 years and is also a repeat guest on “The Drew Barrymore Show” on CBS. This is an amazing episode for anyone looking to better manage their money in 2026. In their conversation, Dave and Melissa explore the idea that money should support happiness, not compete with it. They dig into behavioural finance and simple “brain hacks” that can lead to better decisions, from the 24-hour rule for spending to the power of spending summaries. Melissa also shares insights on social media comparison, why experiences tend to bring more lasting happiness than stuff, the joy of anticipation, and why big purchases like cars so often fail to deliver long-term satisfaction. The discussion also touches on generosity and happiness, valuing time over money, financial challenges women face, managing money as a couple, and practical ways to get started building healthier financial habits — without guilt or perfectionism. Whether you’re trying to spend more intentionally in the new year, stress less about money, or align your finances with what actually makes you happy, this is a thoughtful and refreshing conversation you won’t want to miss.   Show Notes (00:00) Intro & Disclaimer (00:55) Intro to Melissa Leong (02:09) Melissa’s Path from Journalism to Money (05:42) Behavioural Finance & Brain Hacks (09:32) The 24-Hour Rule for Spending (14:16) Social Media & The Pressures of Comparison (16:41) Money Should Support Happiness, Not Compete With It (18:56) Spending Now vs. Spending Later (22:39) Experiences Create More Lasting Happiness Than Stuff (24:12) The Joy of Anticipation (30:29) Dave Doesn’t Have FOMO, He Has FOBI (32:07) The Power of Spending Summaries (36:16) Charity, Generosity & Joy (39:17) Valuing Time Over Money (40:31) Why Cars Rarely Deliver Lasting Happiness (43:32) How Melissa Became a Regular on The Drew Barrymore Show (45:11) Financial Challenges Women Face (51:22) Managing Money as a Couple (56:43) How to Get Started Managing Your Money Well (59:01) Conclusion

Hey, it's Dave Chilton, The Wealthy Barber, and former Dragon on Dragonstant. Welcome to the Wealthy Barber podcast. Well, we'll be hosting some of the top minds in the world of personal finance. Yes, that's to balance me out. The podcast is about making this subject not just easy to understand, but dare I say, even fun, honest. Whether you're trying to fund your retirement, figure out how to build a down payment, save for your kids' education, manage debts, whatever. will be here to help you do it. Before we jump in, a quick but important note,

nothing we discuss here should be taken as investment advice. We don't know you and your personal financial situation, so we're not here to tell you we're specifically to put your investment dollars. We're here to educate, get you thinking, and we hope entertain. But please do your own research and or consult with your financial advisor before taking any action. Hey, it's Dave Chilton, the Wealthy Barber with the Wealthy Barber podcast. Big guest today. I think you all would recognize her already.

Melissa Leong, you've seen her on the social. She's on the Drew Barrymore show regularly down in the States. I first knew her, by the way, all those years ago. She's a journalist, came out of journalism school. She's written for the Globe Mail, the National Post, the Toronto Star. But I first started reading her material when she wrote about crime. And that's how I got to know her name. I wasn't even sure it was the same person when she ended up branching into finance where she's done a wonderful job.

She's developed a big following talking about where happiness meets money, the mistakes we make psychologically, the behavioral issues, et cetera. She very much is a long-term thinker. She tries to simplify things, but it's not all about the math. It's a lot more about the psychology and all of that. We're going to take a deep dive into that today. She's a wonderful communicator. Already has a very big following.

So we're thrilled to have her on the show. Thank you so much for finding the time. Dave. I'm going to take this recording and I'm going to play. it every day. I'm going to listen to this wonderful, kind introduction. Thank you for having me on. Well, your reputation is very, very good. It really is. And I think you come at this with a different background. You know, my background is very traditional finance, Canadian securities course, economics degree. You came in from a journalism background. You're very good at research,

but you have naturally good observation skills. And to me, that's what pushed you over to the world of finance. You saw the mistakes people were making, the stresses. they were dealing with, you realized it wasn't all about the math, and now all of a sudden you're really shedding a lot of wisdom and talking us through all these things. Give us a little bit about that background. What made finance your calling? I started my career in journalism, as you said, and I wrote probably every section of the newspaper where I traveled and wrote stories in sports, crime, terrorism, courts, and that's actually where I came across you actually. I have, can I tell my favorite David Children's story?

Yeah, absolutely. But please don't say it's anything to do with. court. I wasn't in court. No. But it was, I, I was assigned a story where I had to interview some of the most illustrious Canadians out there. And I thought, Dave Chilton, let's find, let's see if I could get David Chilton. And I reached out to you and you called me back right away and said no. but it was the kindest, most gracious, no, that I have ever received.

And that's what I love so much about you. It's the fact that you are, yes, you are, you are teaching people to be wealthy, but no matter how much material good you acquire, no matter, you know, all your name in lights, no matter how famous you get, you're still a good, a good human being. And you measure success by your relationships and how, you treat others. And I just felt that is so lovely. I am going to take that with me for the rest of my career and make sure that I keep that in perspective. But anyways, that was my brief David Dilton's story. And when my money book came out, I called you and you gave me your cell number

and gave me your advice. And it was so generous and lovely. Anyways, I'm a big fan. But my journey in journalism began because I wanted to change the world by giving people information. I wanted to enlighten people. And I realized that when I eventually got into the personal finance section of the financial post, I realized that money is just the story of people's lives. You know, we were, I thought it would be more intimidating than it would because when I was taking the Canadian securities course, you breeze through it, but I felt very intimidated approaching it.

When I got back into the newsroom, I realized that money is milestones. Money is how people are just trying to find happiness, fulfillment. they're trying to build their identity in that way. And I absolutely can relate to that. And I can make change. I can affect change by helping people feel more in control of their finances and understanding how they process their finances by sharing their stories and giving them information. And that has been one of the greatest gifts of my life.

Well, one of the things I think you do very well, and it goes back to your communication skills, is when I've watched you be interviewed, you make people feel more comfortable with being stressed. you don't say, no, you shouldn't be stressed, et cetera. You often say, I get it. Like, why wouldn't you be stressed occasionally about money? I mean, we all are. And I think you kind of take away some of that intimidation people feel towards financial experts. You seem like a very normal person who battles some of these same issues on your own and some of these same challenges.

And so I think that's really helped the way you've been able to resonate with audiences. The thing that I have fallen in love with most is behavioral finance. And that's just the study of how we behave with our money. And I love what you said about, you know, you seem like a normal person, but even people who know, know a lot, don't, they don't always do what they know. And the study of behavioral finance gives you, you know, innumerable examples of why just being financially literate doesn't necessarily you're going to, doesn't mean you're going to make all the right decisions. It doesn't mean you're going to behave optimally when it comes to your money. And I just hope that by understanding some of these brain hacks and some of the tricks that are happening, that people can better plan for it and forgive themselves, right?

It's not about moral purity. It's about how quickly you get up after you fall down. It's about how fast you recover when it comes to a financial hiccup. And hopefully you have the time to do that. No, I think that's bang on because we all have financial hiccups. We all make lots of mistakes. And you're right. It's not just about mathematics, but emotions, controlling emotions.

obviously when it comes to investing is all very, very difficult. What kinds of hacks are you talking about? So let's give our audience one example of what you mean by that. It is so difficult to rely on willpower and executive functioning when it comes to making a financial decision. And so we think that we are going to make a New Year's resolution and we're going to have this rule. And on January 1st, we're going to flick and the light switch and we're going to be new. Melissa Leong is going to be good with money. But that doesn't account for the fact that when you're tired,

when you're stressed, when you've had a long day at work and the boys are yelling at you and I'm coming into the house and somebody peed their pants and somebody's this and I'm not going to make the right decision always. I am going to express. Can you just tell the audience that you have young kids? I don't want them thinking your husband is having a lot of problems here. You're referring to your young boy children.

I have little ones. Yes. And there is all, I don't know what's going on, but there's always a peepee in the pants. situation. But, you know, in those moments, I think, yes, order eats, I would appreciate you, even though that's not necessarily in line with my long-term financial goals. But in the moment, you, you, sometimes we use money as a way to alleviate some sort of discomfort. And life can be uncomfortable. And so that happens. You might feel not confident to go to a job interview and you think, you know, I'll buy myself a new suit. That's going to make me feel pretty good, right?

And so some of the brain hacks that you have to do is you have to account for this so-called hot, cold empathy. Yeah, this is when you are in a cold state, you're cool, you're calm, you think I'm going to go to the gym tomorrow morning. But then in the hot state, when you wake up at 6 a.m., when your alarms are off, you think, who made the decision to go to the gym this early? Oh, yes, me and the future, you know, me and the path. I was going to mistake. We have a hard time imagining how we'll behave in the future when things are not perfect, right? So one of the hacks that you need to do, I'll give you two. One of them is you have to decide what you're going to do before it happens.

So if you think, you know what, I don't know if I'm going to be in the great place to save money at the end of the month, then the best thing to do is have automation, which I know you're a huge proponent of, which just takes the, it takes the willpower out of it. You're not making decision. You've already made the decision. It's like when my husband says, hey, can you save me some chips? And I think, yeah, but then I look at the bottom of the bowl and it's empty. If I really wanted to save some chips, I would have put chips aside at the beginning and not had the temptation take over me and just, you know, just emotionally eating, whatever it is. I've already taken the time and the effort to automate a savings plan that is so much more effective. And the second thing is your brain needs time.

It needs time to process the long term repercussions of your actions and so much of consumers. or isn't today has to happen in a moment, right? The retail industry calls it frictionless spending because they want you to, you know, click the button and it arrives at your house tomorrow. So you do need to tell yourself, you know what, I'm a conscious spender. I am going to institute a 24-hour waiting period before I purchase anything unplanned over, say, X, $50, $100, whatever it is. And this is something that you adopt as a value and an identity. And hopefully that will guide you a little bit further than just saying, I'm not going to impulse spend in 2026 because that rule is, it's difficult to follow. Okay, I love it. No, let me start by saying that we don't normally

give gifts to our guests, but in your case, we're sending you away for a weekend. I mean, your kids are peeing their pants. Your husband is stealing your chips. This sounds like very challenging living arrangement you have. We're going to send you away to a beautiful hotel for two days just to get you away from this family, get you to get grounded here. But, No, okay, I want to say to all of our listeners, this advice to inject some time between the stimulation and the response is old fashioned, but it works. And there's recent research in the states that says it works even better than we thought it did, that when people do that to slow down their spending, they often don't go back and do their spending or they do it in

much more intentional way. It is a great move to do that. And I love Melissa's thing saying, don't just say I'm not going to impulse spend. That's not good enough. If you promised the 24-hour waiting period, by the way, especially for online purchases, it's been proven to be even more impactful there. That alone can make a huge difference in your savings efforts. I think that giving yourself some sort of space, and it doesn't have to be a walk, you know, we're not necessarily, I'm not necessarily saying that you're going to walk around the mall. It could just be texting a friend. It just needs time. It needs to even if it's not 24 hours, some time is better than nothing.

So I might text a friend. I have a WhatsApp group that I text whenever I think I'm thinking of buying something. And we laugh about it. We joke about it. It gives me a little bit of time. Or what I've taught my kids is take a photo of it. It will relieve the itch of wanting something and it will trick your brain. You might still get that burst of dopamine because, ooh, we're going to take a picture of this.

We're going to add it to our wish list. My phone, it did, is just a camera roll of stuff my kids have. scene that they want to buy. Interesting. And my Instagram folder is filled with screen grabs and things that I saved because I thought, oh, that looks good. That would be helpful to me and I might save it. And then when I go back to it, I realized that I didn't need any of that.

No, I think that is a great move. Talked about it actually in the redo of the wealthy barber is this whole process makes such a difference. Beyond that, I'm meeting a lot more people now who say, I just can't stop in certain environment. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to get one credit card with an ultra low limit. And when I go out to some of these environments, I'm only taking the credit card with the $200 or the $300 limit, whatever that number is. And I'm leaving the other ones at home. Then they can't give in the temptation and make those mistakes. These are all, again, basic piece of

advice, but they truly do work. For me, when I was, it might obviously now, my finance is a little more complicated with the kids and my husband. But when I was younger, I did something similar where I just siphoned money out in my checking of account into a separate account that was associated with a no fee debit card. And I would just, you know, give myself an amount of fun money to spend every week. I know people are doing this now in TikTok with cash envelopes. This is still another tangible way, like you were saying, with a credit card saying, you know what, this is the hard limit. Once there is no more money in here, there really isn't money. Because sometimes I think, you can you can tell yourself a story. You can say, oh, there's no more money, but you know what,

future self, my future me will pay for this and it'll be fine. You used a great word earlier, frictionless. And people in the industry have come up with these frictionless ways to buy, these great tech advances, they're always bragging about them. They've been a net negative for the vast majority of consumers. It was better when we had the friction of pulling money out of your wallet, pulling money out of your purse, seeing it leave. You felt pain, in fact, it registered according to the functional magnetic resonance imaging, it registered in your head. It doesn't now with the one click and the one touch. So, yeah, this is all so, so important.

So you have to put those systems in yourself because the industry is out there trying to get us to spend everything we can at all times. Speaking of which, when you look at social media now and all the algorithms, that makes even things harder. We are not built to withstand the torrential downpour of information. that we're getting on social media when it comes to consumerism, when it comes to marketing messages, when it comes to influencer marketing and the algorithm that's just designed to keep you on and looking at other people. And I talk about this stat. I know Preet has talked

about Preet Banergy, another fabulous. Fantastic guy. In Canada, we quoted this study before what's fascinating, where the neighbors of lottery winners are more likely to go bankrupt because they are comparing themselves to what they see next door. Their neighbors spending on visible assets. And so the same thing is happening online. But now your neighbor is a Kardashian. Everybody. Your neighbor is anyone and everyone who is showing you this, this perfectly curated wish list of things that now you think you need to buy. And that's perfectly normal. And that's something that I do talk about a lot for people. I think people beat themselves up a lot about, oh, I saw this thing on Instagram. And then I did bought it. And it was just unplanned and I feel

terrible, but we as human beings are designed to gauge what is appropriate by looking at our peers. We do not have absolute numbers for salaries. We don't know how much we need to be truly successful or what we believe is enough. There are no numbers. We gauge that by looking at the people beside us. And so if your friend or somebody online has something, your brain is going to think this is something that I also should have or need. And there are lots of studies and research, especially for young people, that show that after a little while, they feel FOMO, they feel, you know, in hours of scrolling on the internet, they feel anxiety, they feel depression, they feel down on their own financial situation. And that is something that we can

curate for ourselves. I do a annual cleanse of my feed where I will just go and try to find things that I find that are affirming, things that are aspirational. But I will unsubscribe from all my my retail emails. I will unsubscribe from retail Instagram posts or profiles and just find more things that I feel make me truly happy. You know, you've done a great job over time, I think of talking about how a line I saw you give once, money should support happiness, not compete with it. And that was such a great line because it is so, so true. Just expand on that a little bit for people. Well, money is just, it doesn't have any meeting, right? It's a tool. And we have to decide how we use that tool to so-called buy happiness. But I think what I think is happening

is people are not spending enough time thinking actively about what it is that makes them happy. And I can tell you the research. I wrote a book about how to buy happiness. I can tell you the research about what you can spend your money on in order to optimize joy in your life. But personal finance is personal. And a lot of that needs to be done with starting with you. And so one of the things that I do at the beginning of the years. I do an audit. I will sit down with my family. I actually just did it. And I will ask them, you know what, let's look over the calendar of 2025 going into 2026. And let's figure out what is, what were the things that gave us the most joy in 2025? And everyone will say something. And we'll make a list of the things that brought us the most joy.

Because we're not going to remember every time we brushed our teeth. Our brain will not remember the routine. But we'll remember the novelty. We'll remember the time we spent with our families. and we make that list and then we plan our savings and spending around that list. So smart. So I know that next year, guess what, we are planning a big trip to Japan. The Leongs are going to go to Tokyo. I'm very excited. And that meant that this holiday season, I could talk to my boys about either or language,

which more of us need to do in our everyday lives. They said, hey, Mom, I really want this. I really want this. And I said, we'll take a picture of it and add to my camera roll. But remember, we are saving for Japan. So you wanted to go and buy Pokemon cards in Japan. Well, you need money for that. So no, we're not buying this thing in December.

We're going to save it for the future. I love all this. I mean, you're teaching the kids in my mind by far the biggest, most important message. Money is finite. And every choice you make has repercussions. If you do this, you can't necessarily do that. These are the biggest most important things for kids to learn. Then they start understanding it's about tradeoffs.

and you have to start training yourself to think that way. But you're right, we can kid ourselves that we can kind of do it all. I'm, you know, I'm really congratulating you and building you up here because there's another point that you've made that I like. You don't shame people to the same extent that some financial educators do. In fact, I've seen you talk about how if you're overspending in one area, you may be getting commissary joy there. And so it's fine, as long as you're making the adjustments in other areas.

And this is something I've said for years. when I used to sit down and see the spending summaries of well-to-do people, people who were saving well, I had assumed ahead of time they were going to be quite stingy in all areas of life. It's not like that at all. They also weigh overspend in certain areas, but they make to require cutbacks in others. And this goes back to your what gives us joy. Actually thinking that through auditing to use your word, that's a very, very sharp way to do it. I mean, it's not an easy thing to do. I mean, the research around tradeoffs and the language that use around tradeoff is, very effective. So you are, you're more likely to save if you say, you know what, rather than saying,

I'm going to buy this or not spend my money, you're going to be more effective. You say, I'm going to buy this or I'm going to save my money and do this. So even that simple language, which is going to be better when it comes to science. However, because we are disassociated from ourselves, according to research, our future selves are strangers, you know, our prefrontal cortex, the part of our brain just doesn't have as much activity when we think of ourselves in the future. And there's all these really great, weird experiments where, you know, people have given researches have given people some sort of nasty concoction or soy sauce and ketchup and said, do you want to drink this? And people say, no, future me. You have more to future me. And I think that's you. But, you know, it's really hard to make decisions when the tradeoff is now or save for future you. And so sometimes I try to, I try to remind people that it's not really a question of should I spend or should I save. It's really a question of, should I spend now or should I spend later? Because the money is going to be spent in some way.

Maybe not by you if you're hoarding it and maybe your family members will be able to send if you're lucky enough to pass something on. But it's going to be spent later. And it's really important that you are connected with yourself in the future. And for me, I think one of the gifts that I've had in my life is during difficult times, which all of us have run into. but during hardships, when during illness in my family, one of the things that I've tried to do is to connect with a future version of me. And I will get comfort that way. I will think a future version of me, Melissa, five years from now, would say this. And that kind of language that I've used has helped me also with money. Because I've thought future Melissa also is connected to me.

It's easier for me to save for her. It's easier for me to save for her. It's easier for me to make decisions that will not punish her with debt, you know, I'm going to buy this, but FutureMe is going to pay for it. You know, it's easier when you do those exercises. And I found that before I even saw the research, which showed that if you just saw an aged rendering of yourself, I don't know, you're on Snapchat and maybe saw an aged version of you, you were more likely to save money. Or if you just named your bank account, money for FutureMe, you were more likely to put money into that account. Big believer in all of that. I really am. I like forkinghouse was framing around.

independence. That for him, that's very important. So when he doesn't spend now, he's building up this war chest and essence to give him more independence later. But yeah, you're right. We don't think of the future me. Even when you're old like I am, it's very tough to envision yourself even older. And so I'm old. And I think, okay, what's it going to be like in 10 years? And I kind of just forget the thought and move on and I get right back into the present. So all of that is tricky. I like the ideas that you're advancing. Now, when you go to spend money and you're trying to see, where do we get joy? I was not surprised when you talked about the trip to Japan because over and over again, it seems to come from experiences more than it does stuff. Has that been

your feeling as well? This generation is great at it, actually. I agree. A lot of retailers have capitalized on that by trying to make experiences around retail or trying to market something through an experience. But, you know, when happy people get a windfall of cash, they spend 40% benefit on experiences. Experiences bond you usually to other people, whereas material goods are usually enjoyed alone. You know, you get more bang for your buck because I'm going to come back and I'm going to tell you stories of things that we did in Japan, Dave. And I'll get, you know, I'll have goodwill of being with my, my loved ones. And maybe I will have learned some new skills. I'm going to try to learn some Japanese. And that will pay dividends in terms of expanding the

ways that I experience happiness. So yes, if you have money and you have a choice, I tell my kids, you know what? Let's save our money for some sort of experience. We've done that instead of gift exchanges with our friends. We'll say, hey, guys, we're all going to go to the spa together instead of, you know, exchanging presents or whatever it is. Couldn't agree with you more. And I think you're right about the younger generation. They tend to love travel. And some of the older people criticize them for that, although I find an amazing number of younger people are adept at traveling very efficiently, booking flights that are less expensive than we tend to take on, staying in very inexpensive places, having five of them packed into a room when they go away for a weekend,

et cetera, and saving a lot of money. But they get such joy from it. And to your point, you get the anticipation leading into it. You get the memories from it. And of course, there's this great bonding. Plus, I find with travel, with experiences, you don't have the comparisons to others where you feel, well, their trip was even better than ours. People don't tend to think that way, which is great. Whereas with things like cars and homes, unfortunately, people fall into that trap. I think there's still a lot of comparison when it comes to travel, especially with social media. I think you can look on and see somebody picture perfect vacation and think that you need to have something very, very similar. When if you, like you said, if you look back on your own

travel, some of the best times are just really just making some fun memories with the people that you care about. But absolutely, there are ways to travel on a budget. But I think what I love what you said about the anticipation of it because so many people assume that it's the thing. The thing is going to make me happy. But it's actually the lead-up. You're missing all this great lead-up to it if you're not enjoying that. And so what I like about travel is that you often pay for it and then enjoy it later, which is the opposite of what most of us are doing. Very good point. Which is enjoying it and then paying for it later on our credit card. And so the anticipation is important. You know, they did that study where they asked people, okay, you get to smooch

the celebrity of your choice. I mean, this is a fantasy, right? With concerns. You get to smooch the celebrity with good said. Of course. And, you know, how long would you wait? How much would you pay and how long would you wait? And people were willing to pay the most for three days later. So not right away, not, you know, a couple hours later. It was they wanted the anticipation of, oh my goodness, this is going to happen. And people are often happier before the vacation than they are after. And so make sure that you play that up. If you've got something that you are looking forward to, write your friends. Write your friends. Right? Your friends every other day. Send them, you know, I don't know, ideas of what you're going to do. Send them your itinerary, even if you're just going to go for brunch with your friends. Send some funny messages or means. It's the anticipation that also adds to the joy. I agree. Now, you're not going to like this, but there was some research that came out last year that said the anticipation for a trip goes down if you have to travel a long distance because your mind tends to think about the horrible travel day before more than it thinks about the actual. trip. And so the trips that are, yeah, the trips that are 18, 24 hours away, we don't get the same anticipatory joy for. And that actually made sense to me. When I read that paper, I went, yeah, I think that's a lot of us that we're more worried about that darn day of getting there than we are thinking about the wonderful trip. Are you in that camp? Dave, I have motion sickness. So

Oh, well, then it's understandable. The entire traveling part is an ordeal for me. But I need to tell you a story. So I've always had motion sickness. You know, I used to hang my head out the window of the car like a dog when I was a little kid. And when I go to, you know, Wonderland or any kind of park now, I'm just the coat hanger. I just stand, you know, with my arms up and my kids just come and they hang their coats on me for eight hours while they ride all the rides. And when I was at the National Post, my editor came up to me and he said, hey, Melissa, Leon, do you think you could write a feature about aerobatic racing planes? You know, they go 250 miles per hour. They hit upwards of 10 G's. And I thought, oh, yes. Yes, I could do that. And so I wrote a really great article. I got to tell you, but I did almost pass out and had they had to emergency land the airplane. I just started to be oxygen. They suck it from the G4, sucks it from your brain. And then you just start to pass out. Now, I want to know why did your editor call you by your full name? So when he came up or she came up and said, I would have just gone, hey, Melissa. But if you want to go, hey, Melissa, Leong. That's very formal. He probably called me Leong, to be honest. Back in the day, in the

newsroom, we all just called each other by our laughing. But I'm in a loop this back to personal finance. So the next time I was offered an opportunity to get on some sort of vehicle, it was an eight-hour sailing tour of Paros in Greece. And I did get on that boat. I was sick for seven and a half hours, but for half an hour, it was okay. And I think the idea of like, why did I do that? Why do I keep putting myself in this situation where I say yes to long flights to Japan, for example? And there are a lot of things happening. And they're called heuristics. They're just shortcuts that our brain use. And our brain will use those when we make financial decisions well. So I'm faced with this decision. Should I get on this airplane? And I had the pleasure of

interviewing the late and great Daniel Kahneman who loved his book, thinking fast, thinking slow. Yes. My dad's favorite. Great. Yes, one of my favorites too. And he talked about, you know, this overconfident optimism that deludes you. And I constantly have that. I have FOMO. I say, if I don't get on this airplane, they're going to have fun without me. And I say, you know, I have that hot, cold empathy gap where I think, well, I feel fine now. So I think I should be fine on an airplane. And there's all these things happening. And the same thing happens when you make a money decision. You know, you think you're going to be rational. But there's a lot of irrational. thought that happens, which is why I'm so glad we're having a conversation about taking some time to put in place a plan, you know, looking at your money situation, getting clarity, maybe even doing something simple as calculating your net worth and deciding, you know what, maybe I'm going to start doing that four times a year just to see if I'm making progress, you know, some kind of benchmark. And I'm not saying you show your mom or, you know, wear it on a t-shirt, but this is

something just for you to think, you know what, how am I going to track my progress in terms of building wealth. How am I going to make better decisions? Do I need to have a conversation with my wealth advisor? Or do I need to send my my budget spreadsheets to David Chilton and ask him for some feedback, something that doesn't just rely on, you know what? Resolution, it'll be fine. But you're so right. I mean, those kinds of things jumpstart the financial planning process. So anytime you do that, it's funny, when I've gotten younger people to go get a will, I mean, obviously it's great that they got the will and the powers of attorney, but it's also jump started the financial planning process, much like your recommendation to do a regular visit

with your net worth statement. So I couldn't agree more. You know what you find interesting is I don't battle FOMO ever. And it's not that I can give tips. No. And it's not that I can give tips to people about how I've done it. I just don't get it. I never have FOMO. In fact, I have fear of being invited. I like just to be by myself and stay at home. I have phobia. And I never have FOMO. And it's the same thing with other people buy beautiful boats. So they have a nicer house than I. I do, I couldn't care less. I'm never pulled toward that. But the FOMO is funny because I couldn't care less when people do.

It never affects me. I don't know why I'm wired that way, but I guess it's lucky because I'm not always tempted to try to keep up with everybody else and what they're doing. I just basically want to go home, play with my dog and work on my hockey pool. Nice and simple. No desires to do anything dramatic. It's beautiful. That's great.

Yeah, I know. It's beautiful. You mentioned Preet, by the way, earlier. You know that Preet was a motor car racer? Yes. At one point. Yes. He's a very talented guy.

He still drives. It's not fair. You just cannot have all of those talents and the great hair and all of those things. It is just, it doesn't make sense. It's not fair. I really, really wish you hadn't said that. I do. That deeply hurt me because we had preed on our first podcast.

And of course, the feedback I got from everybody, he has even better hair than you do. That really bothered me. And also then people started following them. They started to follow him. They said, Dave, why don't you dress like that? He's such a better dresser than you are. I'm hearing all this. I'm never having.

pre-back on the show. In fact, I haven't spoken to him since. You are having a little bit of FOMO now. Yeah, FOMO towards his hair. I've always had what I thought was the best. Remember, I'm 88 years old. Okay, at 88, this is rock, solid hair. Okay, I want to go a different direction. And proud, definitely. And proud, exactly. You know, over the years, I've been, you know, wrong about some things in finance, we all are, but I've never been more wrong than I was initially about spending summaries. You know, I gave them a very short look in the original wealthy barber on stage. I never discussed them. Then over the years, I watched people do them. and came to realize, wow, the impact of these is huge.

It's what you said. It jumpstarts the financial planning process, but also when they see where the money is going, they see where the leaks are. They tend to make subconscious changes, but you made a more important point earlier. They see what they're getting joy from spending. So in a lot of cases, they're spending a lot of money, let's say going up for lunch, and they do get some joy, but not joy that matches up to the amount being spent. There's better places they can use the money to get more joy units.

And so I think spending summaries are a phenomenal way to go about things. I much prefer them to budgets. I think a three-month look back where you've chronicled everything tends to be more impactful. What are your thoughts on those? Well, you better not say anything negative now after that build-up. You'll crush me. I've given you no choice, but you just fall in line now. Yeah, exactly.

Well, luckily, I agree because I believe in clarity. I believe that if you're going to be intentional, and there are a lot of surveys that showed over the past season, especially with what Canadians were dealing with with economic uncertainty, some strange geopolitical issues and, you know, terrorists on, on, off, off, whatever. You know, people are feeling uncertain about their money and people are feeling the pressure of rising grocery prices and inflation. And so they were being more intentional when it comes to their spending. And I love that.

I love, I don't love the anxiety part, but I love being more conscious about what you're spending your money on. And you can't do that if you haven't looked. I think there's a lot of, you know, a lot of my colleagues, a lot of my friends, they are, they tell me, it stresses me out, Melissa. That's why I don't look. I don't do the spending summary. I don't look at my bank app. I don't do those things because it stresses me out.

And I get it. I get that we as human beings try to run from whatever causes discomfort. But I promise that if you just turn the lights on, you're not going to find scary monsters. You're going to see where you can be more intentional and where you can make conscious choices. And that is so empowering, right? Like where you say you have the spending summer, we can look back and say, oh, geez, you know, I can do an exercise of saying, you know, let me think of the most important things in my life. What are my top five values? What do I want in my life and how do I get fulfillment? And then when I look at my spending summary, how many of these things in this category, in my discretionary category, actually go to those things? You know, I did that a few years ago. And I realized that I was really out of lying with some of my values. Very interesting. And I thought, oh my gosh, I say that I am somebody who values family,

but look at me not assigning more money to going to visit my family across Canada and different places. Or even not sharing your potato chips. I mean, you've got a lot of issues there. I mean, I love potato chips. Are you even taking your husband to Japan? Or is he out and it's just you and the boys? Everybody.

Melissa Leong has allocated money to potato chips because that makes me happy. I've decided. But that's interesting. So it's a great way to align with your values to make sure your spending is matching up. And that's just another way of saying, are you getting the proper joy units and the proper happiness levels achieved by your spending? I find it's interesting when you have people do these, how often they subconsciously make changes. So yes, they become intentional in some instances, but a lot of the decisions just kind of naturally flow. And three and four months later, they'll say, yeah, I'm doing a better job on that front and I'm actually saving more, etc.

But they haven't really written down a firm or budget or throwing themselves into this. it's taken care of itself to some extent through the spending summary. That goes back to your point about clarity, shining a light on things, actually seeing it. In fact, it's funny. I don't like the apps. They're better than nothing. But I actually like when people write it out because it tends to get internalized more and it's more meaningful that way. I still will do my budgets and my spending summaries on paper.

Like I will write it out. Yeah. I mean, that's old school. I'm a journalist. I used to do tick shorthand. And so that used me pleasure. understand that that is not everybody's cup of tea, but it makes it more tangible for me. And I do, I have tried over the years to divert more of my money to things that where science has said

would make me happier. One of those things is charity. Worldwide survey show that whether you're rich, whether you're poor, when you donate money to other people or when you spend money on charity, you are not only feeling more wealthy, but you feel more satisfied with life. And so this season, we've really tried to gear even the kids, their minds around what they really value about the holiday season, which is people, gratitude, sharing what we can. So we've done a lot of experiences that involve charities. So I'm supersizing the good feelings there. There was this great study in 2020, it's one of my favor, where they asked 200 people to sign up for a mystery experiment. And I mean, I was going to sign up for a mystery experiment. What's going to happen to me?

But those 200 people received $10,000 to spend on absolutely anything. There was just one They had to spend it within three months. Oh, interesting. All $10,000. And what they found was, you know, people spent an average of $6,000 of it on others. It just gave them joy to do that. And that study is so interesting. I mean, the more money that you had to begin with, the less happy that $10,000 made you.

Yeah, everything's relative of the life. Yes, I love all the studies about sort of magic numbers and how much money you need to be happy and reflecting on that in my own life. But you know what's interesting is even if you just look at your own circle of friends, the people who are happiest tend to be very involved in their communities. Now, my father would say cause and effect can be confused here. Maybe they got more involved in their communities because they were by nature happy and therefore felt good about things and wanted to get back. But I would argue it goes both ways that if you get involved in your community, it raises your happiness level as well. And I think the research supports that. So everything you're saying is bang on.

The good news is over the last several years, I've seen more and more people conscious of this. And you're seeing people, say, in the family environment, instead of swapping gifts as adults, let's all pool some money together and give it to a local charity or buy toys for a family in need, et cetera. We're seeing more than that than we ever have. I'm so happy to hear that. I know that charities have been struggling, actually, with lower volunteer hours from people. And so I'm just, I love any opportunity to encourage people to get out there. And yes, it's good for the world, but it's really good for you. You know, one of my favorite things that we've done every single year is that me and my best friends and all of our children, we, you know, get dressed up as little elves and we volunteer with a charity that goes around and delivers Christmas gifts to underprivileged neighborhoods.

And it is the thing that has created some really deep core memories. And so if you can not only, yes, do good, but do good with your loved ones, that will bring you so much joy. And I like that point you made about, you know, what is it? The chicken, the egg thing. What is really going to make you happy? But sometimes it's sort of a cycle. So the same thing with time. To be happier, you have to value your time.

There is a connection between valuing your time and money. And the people who value their time over money, they are happier people. And their studies show that if you start to value your time, you will be a happier person. And that takes different forms. You know, maybe that's the direct flight, cost a little bit more and more money. I mean, the direct flights of Japan would be much better from Melissa Leong. I need to stop talking about myself and the third person. Everybody uses your last name.

Even you. I like it. Yeah. And so, you know, that could also be not taking a job that pays you more money because you know that it's going to take more time away from your family or the commute is longer. People underestimate how unhappy a commute makes you. Oh. I mean, have you ever seen those studies on the base rate of happiness?

And obviously something dramatic like losing a loved one can affect your base rate. But commuting, having to commute long lengths is right near the top with caregiving. Those are kind of the two that. And people don't, you're right, they don't recognize what it's doing to their happiness because it slowly erodes it as opposed to hitting it all in one smack. But yeah, long commutes to and from work are a killer for happiness. I like to say, I know you're telling me that buying this car will make you happier. but just think about this, you're going to be stuck in traffic in Toronto on the Don Valley Parkway, but just in a nice car, and eventually it just won't make it different.

It's true. This is not according to me, it's according to research. You know, you're just, now you're just late for work, but in a slightly nicer car that you don't appreciate anymore, because as human beings, we just kind of get used to whatever we have. You and I are so aligned. And, you know, with 90% of people, not 100, there are 10% of people who for some reason just get such thrills from cars that they don't habituate the same, to the same extent,

most of us do. But 90% of people, you know that you can hit habituation on a new car within three weeks? Not through muds or three years. Within three weeks, you get accustomed to having it and kind of take it for granted again, and you're right back to the same feelings you had with the car you traded in to get it in the first place. Yeah, you're leaning on the horn because some guy cut you off and just mad. Yeah, no, it's true.

And you know, it's funny. Like, when I'm helping people or looking at spending summaries, I'm honestly never judgmental. everything you've said I agree with, that life comes at you. We all make mistakes and it's just the nature of the beast. But I am a little judgmental on what a lot of people spend on cars. And I've said that for 30 years. I don't apologize for it.

It is so tough when the cost of living is as crazy as it is, the cost of real estate out of bounds. But then you look at what a lot of people, young people, old people, middle income people, all over the place, spend on cars relative to their income. You're going, holy smokers, that one kills me. Not everybody, but way to a higher percentage of people. But what a tangible example of what you believe will make you happy. You know, I look at that and I see the stories that people tell around their vehicle. You know, it's the, I grew up saying that I would get this for me for myself when I was a success. You know, I'm doing that in air quotes.

You can't hear it in the podcast. But it's easier to measure your life in square footage. in a vehicle. It's less easy to say, you know, I'm a really good dad. It's hard to measure that kind of success that you have in other ways. But I try not to judge other people's choices. They're just different than mine. But what I would ask is that people take the time to reflect on those choices. And also on the idea that what if no one ever saw it? What if nobody ever saw you're driving that car. Would you really like that car? Would you, would you love the payments? That's true. And try to figure out what it is about this car. What does it mean? That's a little bit of deep

dive. I mean, there's an entire subsect of personal finance that is around trauma, that is around, you know, therapy based. And, and I think that has holds a lot of validity for people. But, you know, that's hard. That's a hard one. It's hard. I have that conversation with my husband and I, I don't, I didn't win. Now, you know, I know our listeners, viewers are going to want to know this. How did you end up becoming a regular on the Drew Barrymore show? It's a U.S.-based show, obviously, and it's a big show, and how did you pull that off and you've done wonderfully well? It's quite exciting.

So I've had the great privilege of being the resident money expert on CTVs, the Social, which is Canada's leading daytime talk show, since week one. So for 14 years, I've been able to go on that show and to try to break money down in, you know, a really digestible, hopefully fun and accessible way for Canadian. And so when there was an opportunity to do that for the Drew Barrymore show, it was actually during the pandemic. I just, I mean, that was a great, great, great opportunity. Because even though it's U.S. space, my book has U.S. and Canadian formation. And so much of what we've talked about even today is universal.

It's just trying to be human. And so, yeah, people love to ask me about. But then I flew, Drew, can I call her Drew? I call myself Melissa Leong, but then I got to call her, Yeah, you're much more casual with her name. She flew me down to the CBS studios to appear in person when we were starting to open up again. And that was such a gift. And is it based in New York?

Did you go down to the CBS New York Studios? It is based in New York. Yeah, that's exciting. Good for you. Well, honestly, I congratulate you. And you've done very well. And you always come across as very genuine and very careful. And you fake that extremely well.

Oh, thank you. Wilson Leong, Wissol Leong fakes things well. No, you're wonderful on all of those. And I think that you do make it much more digestible. Now, over the last few years, you focused a lot on challenges that women deal with specifically. Obviously, the one that jumps to everybody's mind is they tend to live longer. I don't think that gets enough attention.

That's a big deal. If you're living X years longer, your money has to last longer, et cetera. But beyond that, what issues do you see women coming up against in the financial sphere that maybe men don't face. Well, you hit the nail on the head there where you just said, I mean, we have different needs. And so much of personal finance over the years is you have these rules of thumb, which don't really take into account whether you are a woman, whether you're a woman of color, whether you're going to take time away to raise a family. Because, you know, there's lots of studies including, you know, Stats Can has done reports where if you take, say, four years off to

be with your family, it dramatically reduces your earth power. And so you have that. But you were also paid a little bit less than men for the same job. And you're less likely to have the same opportunities to move up upwards into higher paying jobs. And you live longer. So you need more money. That's right. No, it's very true. So there are a lot of challenges.

There's also something that I've felt we need more marketing around investing that is unisex. because I have been in spaces where there was a, you know, industry event, but it was all around golf. I know you love golf, but not everybody loves golf. You know, there will be an event and it's just a bunch of bros in a room. And you've got the content is here to a specific audience. But women, according to research, and I know you've talked about this, there are some researchers that we are more cautious investors.

and hence more patient investors and more successful investors of the long term. Absolutely. All the data supports that, by the way. But there is no, there's just not enough spaces to make that encouraging and to make it seem that it is a woman's space. And so sometimes you see the banks kind of trot out these studies that say women lack confidence. You know, it's our fault. We lack confidence in in finances and investing in the long term. And I think, do we lack confidence? Or do we feel what society is reflecting back to us? Do we feel like our, do we have imposter syndrome?

Or by the fact that we go to the office and there's only one woman at the table of, you know, 20 men, do we feel slightly like we don't belong? And that fuels some of what other people call imposter syndrome. So sometimes I think that there's an onus put on women that you just need to step up. And we don't have the spaces. We don't have the support. You know, the office can say, yeah, you take time off. That's great. But I've spoken to many, many, many women in many articles that I've written for the national posts that talked about how there's a penalty.

There's a mom penalty. You know, you take time off. But guess what? You're not invited to some of these meetings. You haven't been traveling for work in the last few years. Your career has just not advanced the way some other people have. And you don't have the same childcare opportunities. So I think that is one of the things that I feel most passionate about.

Just when we talk about empowering women, it's inviting everybody into this conversation. It's not just, you know, me and what I can do. It's what can we all do to make this space empowering. I agree with everything you just said. You know where I see it a lot is in venture capital space and the private equity space where you're still 80 and 90 and 95 percent in some companies' cases male dominated. And so as a young founder goes in, a young female founder, it is more challenging, or at least you may perceive it to be, et cetera.

So to your point, creating more spaces where you have more females involved, a better environment and all those fronts, it makes perfect sense to me. And we all win when that's the case. I will say this, and I've taken some criticism for men, but it's all backed up by the data. If people come at investing with equal knowledge, women do tend to be better. And you hit on the major reason why they tend to be more. patient. And so they're holding periods for things like index funds have always been significantly longer. And that's the key. They're not trying to time the market. And I've talked in previous

podcasts about testosterone levels and now how a lot of scientists think that, especially with the younger men, the reason they're being so aggressive and gamplifying everything is because of testosterone levels. That may or may not be the case, but the science is saying it is. But everything you've said is so true. So it's great to see that you're jumping into that area. Are you running courses on that? Are you looking at writing a book more specific to that? I've been, a lot of my content is geared toward, not necessarily, and I'm not saying that it's for women, but I'm just talking about things that I think that I care about,

that I hope are relatable to people who are finding themselves in this strange perimenopausal era. So hopefully if I create things, if I use my voice in a way that is relatable, people will realize that that it's not as difficult or challenging or intimidating as it sounds. And a lot of, I do really great work at women's conferences where we have the opportunity to talk to large-scale audiences about how, I mean, money has been in my space, in my family space for generations. And I didn't even realize it until I just sort of did bidsom digging. And my great grandmothers were entrepreneurs. They were solo entrepreneurs in China. during the Second World War.

And so the men were far away. They were working in Canada. And so the women were by themselves separated from, you know, across this ocean, unable to communicate because of war. And they were running businesses. They were working household finances. They were taking care of the family. And so, you know, women's financial leadership has always been there.

We just have to celebrate. We need to talk about it more. We all just need to talk about money more, which is why this is such a gift. Okay, let's go. One more thing. I mean, I've obviously kept you a long time, but let's go to couples. My argument has always been that just sitting back and watching, couples who manage their money together tend to prosper. They're more likely to do well than couples where they manage each of their monies independently. Also, the more the couple talks about finances for the most part, the better. The rule really is that simple.

Do you agree with both those arguments? If not, you know, feel free to argue. We'll edit out all your points. I'm just kidding. Okay. I agree wholeheartedly with the second one. The first one, there is some nuance. And you can't see this if you're listening on the podcast, but I stretched my face. I stuck my hands to my cheeks and just squished my cheeks when you started talking about couples because there are no two different. You cannot find a couple that is more on opposing ends when it comes to money. My husband loves. Okay, he was very excited when the whole gangstop thing was happening. He wants to talk to me about mean coins. So, you know, when it comes to marrying your opposite, it requires a lot of communication and a lot of curiosity, lead with curiosity,

and your most generous interpretation of what is happening. And so when you said, couples who work on things together. I think that's important, but I think it's important that if you decide to meld your finances, that you don't give up agency or control. You've meld you to your finances, but you still know the passwords. You know and understand the spending summaries, for example, because I think, think what happens is when couples combine their finances, they become siloed with

responsibilities. So typically the women do their budgeting in the household, but then the men do the long-term planning. And that does a disservice to say women and their opportunities if things go awry. If the husband... Right. Fair point. If the marriage experiences and challenges. And many do. Yes. And women and men need to understand what's happening so that when they separate, if they separate, they still have some independence as well as you're not afraid to leave a difficult

situation, a scary situation, unhealthy situation. Or when your husband passes away, your wife passes away, you need to understand what's going on so you're not lost. I have seen many experiences in many cases, even in my own, you know, family and friends situation where, you know, there was a dissolution, the marriage dissolved, or somebody did pass away. And the person who was, you know, the person who did not have a handle on the finances was left in such an operation.

Yeah, see it all the time. And that's why I do agree in putting the finances together, but both people being involved in all aspects of the management. And that's why the second part of that, the conversation about, you know, here's the current net worth statement, here are our goals, here's how we're going to achieve them, the spending summary being done together. I think that leads to the best result. For some strange reason, you don't see it that often. A lot of the younger couples, when I've sat down with them and worked with their spending, they are doing a lot of this together now. They're getting the fact that it doesn't make much sense to be doing it all on their own. And for example, one person

to have credit card debt, well, another person has $20,000 sitting in the bank, etc. So figuring out how to strike all those balances is tricky, but your points are well taken. You certainly don't want to meld it together and have one person and not up on top of it or ignorant of all the facts and figures because going forward that could lead to a very problematic situation. It's always made me feel independent to have my own money. And so, you know, Sean and I, we have a joint checking account where money gets pooled and that pays all of our bills and our family expenses. But we each have our own accounts where we are. people do it that way. Yeah, and I don't want to know what he's spending on because I'm going to be upset. And I can't be upset on a daily basis. I'm going to just be over there with my chips, you know, just sewing the holes on my purses while my husband decides he wants to build a racing simulator in the basement. You know, I just, I just, you know, we've set aside the money for that. We've already had the conversation. You do you. No, I think that's the exact right way to do it, is that you have separate accounts along with the joint. account and however that person chooses to spend that money, they're called. And you don't interfere and

they don't interfere with yours. We do have it. We do have an agreed upon amount or we must have a conversation. Any purchases above X number of dollars require a conversation. I didn't say permission. Right, but a conversation. Check some balances. For me, you know, but I just, you know, now the fact that you put Sean, you've put Sean's limit at $28. That does seem a little low. and unfair. But, I mean, the guy was a game stop guy. So, I mean, you got to be careful. I mean, you've got to watch this fellow, no doubt about it. Okay, one last question. Somebody's listening. They're loving what you're saying, but they still have that overwhelmed feeling right now. We've mentioned the cost of living is through the roof. It's the holiday season. Everybody's

been spending. What do you do to start them? What's their first step to try to get grounded and feel better about their financial future? Is it the aforementioned spending summary? What would tell them to do first? I think that is going to change depending on who you are. I think that if there is just a small, it could be absurdly small step that you can take to build momentum, I think that that is incredibly important. And so just the fact that you're listening to this podcast that you've listened to the end, it may be absurdly small, but what a tremendous beat. You have listened and are trying to empower yourself with financial information beyond a 60 second TikTok, you know. So doing something for yourself and acknowledging that and

celebrating that win. We get this burst of dopamine when we buy something, but we're not going to get the same burst of dopamine from saving or, you know, putting and automating a goal or writing down your goals or maybe calling your bank and discussing your credit card interest or or maybe looking into a non-profit credit counseling agency, whatever small moves that you make should be celebrated. So whatever it is that you choose to do, if a spending summary or just opening your bank app, putting your bank app on the first page of your phone maybe

and opening it, taking a look, it should be celebrated. So you also get that reward, that burst of dopamine, right? Text your friend and say, hey, you know what? I'm going to tackle my debt in January. Saw awesome. You know, something that acknowledges that you're on your way.

Okay, well, listen, all I took out of that was you just told our audience, if you can listen to a full Dave Chilton podcast, that's a tremendous feat. That's all I heard there. And I'm just, I'm a little bit upset. And I can tell you, Melissa Leong, Melissa Leong will not be back. Okay, so get a good look at her because this is it for her. It's a treat. I don't know how Sean does it.

I don't know how he does it. Anyway, you've been great. I mean, yeah, exactly. He's not going to Japan either. He's out. He's out, period. But you've been great. I mean, you're a tremendous communicator.

You come across as such a warm, caring person, which I think is one of the reasons why people have gravitated to you. And I really did enjoy having you on. Hopefully we can have you back at some point. Thank you, Dave. I'll tell you all about Japan. Yes, make sure you do. And I hope you don't get too sick on the flight over and the flight back. Seriously, that's horrible.

No, nope. I'm telling myself a story. be fine. I don't think it is, but thanks so much for saying that. Okay, be well. Thank you.