The Wealthy Barber Podcast - #39 — Shannon Lee Simmons: Financial Planning for Everyday Canadians

Episode Date: January 13, 2026

Our guest this episode is Shannon Lee Simmons — Certified Financial Planner®, Chartered Investment Manager®, bestselling author, media personality and founder of the New School of Finance™. Shannon is widely recognized as a trailblazer in Canada’s fee-only financial planning movement and her latest book is “Making Bank,” a financial guide for teens.  In this conversation, Dave and Shannon explore what real-world financial planning looks like for everyday Canadians. They dive into fee-only and modular financial planning, budgeting in real life, turning advice into action and how rising housing prices, down payments and “financial dysmorphia” are reshaping how Canadians think about money. Whether you’re just getting started with your finances or feeling squeezed by today’s economic realities, this episode is full of perspective, practical advice and much-needed hope.   Show Notes (00:00) Intro & Disclaimer (00:55) Intro to Shannon Lee Simmons (02:22) Leaving Bay Street to Serve Everyday Canadians (04:10) The Barter Babes Project (08:01) Writing “Making Bank” for Teenagers (11:59) What is Fee-Only Financial Planning? (14:06) Modular Financial Planning for Real Life (15:30) The Importance of Knowing How Much Money is Coming In and Going Out (18:49) Who Typically Seeks Fee-Only Financial Planning? (20:19) Turning Financial Advice Into Action (22:26) Why Fee-Only Financial Planners Are Starting to Specialize (25:58) Software vs. Spreadsheets (26:55) Scaling a Fee-Only Practice (28:43) Housing Prices are Squeezing Canada’s Middle Class (32:15) More People Are Risking Their Own Retirement to Help Their Adult Children Financially (34:33) Down Payments Squeeze All Other Savings (36:20) Financial Dysmorphia and “Normal” Spending (38:50) Hope is Your Biggest Asset  (41:23) Real Estate Prices and Divorce (43:03) Some Young People Are Still Doing Well Financially (44:19) Retirement Planning is a Different Beast (49:43) Reasons for Optimism and Hope

Hey, it's Dave Chilten, the wealthy barber and former Dragon on Dragon's Dent. Welcome to the Wealthy Barber podcast. Well, we'll be hosting some of the top minds in the world of personal finance. Yes, that's to balance me out. The podcast is about making this subject not just easy to understand, but dare I say, even fun, honest. Whether you're trying to fund your retirement, figure out how to build a down payment, save for your kids' education, manage debts, whatever, will be here to help you. you do it. Before we jump in, a quick but important note, nothing we discuss here should be taken

as investment advice. We don't know you and your personal financial situation. So we're not here to tell you we're specifically to put your investment dollars. We're here to educate, get you thinking, and we hope entertain. But please do your own research and or consult with your financial advisor before taking any action. Hey, it's Dave Chilton, The Wealthy Barber with the Wealthy Barber podcast. No idea again what episode it is. Nice to see everybody. Although, of course, I don't. But nice for you to see me, although not really. I am very excited about today. We've got a guest, an outstanding communicator. I'm looking forward to talking about all the things she's involved with Shannon Lee Simmons. And Shannon is an author of four books. I own

three of them and I've enjoyed three of them very much. I've read the first three. The one that's just come out this year, making bank, I have not purchased yet. It's aimed primarily at teenagers in early 20s, and our audience knows that I'm now in my mid-30s, and therefore a little out of that demographic. However, I am going to purchase it after this interview to support the cause, but also to read it. I understand, by the way, it uses fictional conversation, which I think, obviously, is a very effective way to teach. Shannon's background in the industry is quite fascinating, and we're going to touch on that right away, but let me first say, welcome to the show. Well, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. Your reputation precedes you. You are very highly

thought of in the industry. I should have said and didn't that you also won Canada's top 30 under 30, which is a very prestigious award in this country. It definitely is, but that was a while ago. I'm no longer in my 30s at this point. But at the time, it was very exciting. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I still talk about awards I won a long time ago. That's all I've got. I don't win any now. So that's all I've got. No, congratulations. I mean, you've had a great career. But your career took an interesting turn early. You were in a more traditional role in finance working for one of the boutique investment advisors, I believe. And then you moved out of that into a very unusual circumstance. Tell us about that transition. Yeah. So I was working with high-net-earth clients doing

asset center management at Phillips Hager North. And it was wonderful. It was great. But, you know, cut my teeth in the investment industry there. We were bought out, worked within that for a while. And then in about 2010, just after the big crash, I started realizing that sort of like an everyday Canadian who maybe not isn't a high net worth client with assets under management, where are they going for financial planning advice? Where are they going? And the answer was like, well, there isn't really a market for that. There isn't, there's this niche. I felt really strongly about fee only, but it was just starting. I couldn't find lots of people who were doing it.

There was lots of doubt. So I quit my job into my big wonderful Bay Street job and that whole trajectory in 2010. And I launched into my sort of self-employment journey. And here we are 15 years later, New School Finance, and we're still going strong as one of the, you know, I like to call New School Finance one of the OGs in the fee-only space in Canada. But you are right to do that. So that's not false bragging or poor marketing.

You really are one of the OGs in the fee-only space, one that's gaining momentum. And you've done a lot on that front. I mean, you've done a lot of interviews over the years to draw attention to it. Now, I should say, because again, you're quite modest. You have your CFP, you have your CIM, your chartered investment manager. A lot of people have that designation. And you're bringing a lot to the table here in terms of knowledge.

I've talked about your communication skills. But your communication skills just let us down. You left out the most interesting part. You didn't tell everybody what you did when you first left. Oh, you're talking about the Barter Babes project. Yes, before you opened up. I want to hear about that. So go ahead. Okay. So yes, I was very, I was 25 at the time and no mortgage or kids at the time.

And really wanting to experiment in this space of getting financial planning, good quality financial planning in the hands of Canadians. And everyone said that no one would pay for it. So I believed them at the time. And I did this thing where I said, you know what? There's got to be a way. I'll take one year out of my life. I'll quit my job. I will barter financial planning advice in exchange for, you know, a good or service from someone. And so I made a goal to do one year, 300 women. And I gave, I was a CFP at the time too, and I gave personal financial planning advice to 300 women in one year. And I didn't charge money for it. I did it in exchange for everything from like a new bike to head shots to, like a drain ticket.

Like it was wild. It was a wild year. And my plan at the beginning was always. was to sort of see if I liked working with this demographic of people and delivering financial planning only instead of having the wealth management side as well. And at the end, I was like, well, I'll just go back into my Bay Street role or I'll find another job. And I was totally hooked. And then that's actually what led to the dawn of the new school of finances that I was like, I can't I can't go back. I'm in love with it. So that was what launched it.

Well, good for you. I mean, what a spirit of adventure to go out and do that. What did your parents which you told them by quitting my job of PHNN, one of the more reputable firms out of the street. It was lovely. Everyone's like, was it the worst? I'm like, no, it was beautiful. No, I know the principles there. They're all fantastic. And so you leave your job there and you tell them, not only am I leaving this job, but I'm going to set up this business where I'm swapping financial plans for pens and combs and whatever. How did they react? I grew up in a family business. So when you grow up, no one in my family is employed traditionally with a T-4. So when you grow up in an entrepreneurial up and down world and everyone's sort of part of a family business, the idea that you, I was the weird one out by getting this traditional job on Bay Street.

And they were like, wow, she's really, it's really different from us. And then I was like, no, I'm not. And then I just jumped shit. So my parents are very supportive of it. I think the worry, if I had done something like that now in my 40s, is totally different than when I was younger. I was only 25. And so the stakes of life weren't there, but my colleagues were very weirded out by it. At my going away party, everyone was like, are you sure that you're going to do this?

Like, are you absolutely sure? And I was just so reckless at the time. But it was the greatest launching pad I could have asked for. Well, I mean, I think instinctively you weren't reckless. You knew what you were doing. I mean, you were laying the foundation for where you were headed. I mean, what an experience to deal with 300 different women that first year, see all their trials, their tribulations, figure out how to help them to get where they want to be.

I mean, what a training ground for what you've gone on to do. It was the best trading ground and also the greatest marketing tool to springboard from because each of those 300 women told a friend, told a friend, told a friend, told a friend, told a friend. And so in my first year of business, when I officially opened New School of Finance, the book was built. It was just so miraculous. So I'm very grateful. And if anyone's listening to this, it's one of those original 300 women. Thank you.

It's wonderful. Well, you've built a reputation quite early for being a very good communicator. I think the book obviously getting out in the marketplace, shown a light on that, but also for being very nice. And I think you can see you come across to somebody who cares and wants to make a difference and wants to help people. I mean,

you have to be like that to do what you did on that rather odd journey. So good for you. Now, before we talk about the only financial planning, the new school of finance, I want to go out of order and just speak for a moment about the new book, making bank. And so it's done well. You've had it out in the marketplace for a few months.

What's it all about? What's the point of difference? Why are you so excited about it? Yeah. I mean, in my day-to-day life, I give financial planning advice to, you know, older people, mostly Gen X and boomers and retirement planning. And then this was very different to write for teenagers. And it came about because a lot of my Gen X clients were talking about their teenagers at

home and the troubles and the worries and the anxieties. And so many of my Gen X clients were like, would you just sit down? with my teenager and talk to them. I feel like they don't understand money. They don't know what's going on. They have all these new questions. So I started sitting down with a few of the families and their kids naturally, sort of organically through the business. And I quickly, quickly realized after dealing with, you know, not that many of these teenagers that they are dealt a hand that is unprecedented and so different than any other generation. And I know that every, you know, each generation is different than the one previous, but I find this exponentially different. And so I was fascinated by it, started getting

curious and was like, they need a new handbug. This hit, like they, they need a different set of ways to learn about this because the patchwork system of financial education in Canada is not streamlined, it's not consistent. And I always say that with smartphones, these kids are turning 18 and they now have access from the palm of their hand. They can day trade if they want to. They can frictionless payment from the touch of a button. They can go into credit card debt. So it's kind of like being handed the keys to a Ferrari with like a learner's permit. And so we don't need to be scared of it, but we need to teach them how to drive a supercar. And I don't know that that was happening. So that's what really got me excited about it. And then, you know, once there was a book deal,

then that launched into me working with teenagers on the side of my day job. for two years as I was writing this book. So I did, the conversations in the book are fictional, that they are based on the hundreds of conversations that I was having. So they're composite conversations more than fictional. Yeah, well, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. No, that's a great way to teach.

Obviously, it draws people in a little bit more and you can cover off a wide variety of subjects. Now, it's not a novel per se where you've got an overriding story. It's chapter by chapter the composite's conversations. Yes and no. So it's both. There's four characters and you sort of follow them through each part of the book. book, but each, it's only the four, and they all have their own little story arc as well.

And they are a composite of all the different things that, you know, I sort of had four stock teen experiences as I was going through. And I wanted to map those out each one. Most of my books are like what you just explored, like each, each chapter is its own composite story in itself. But this one is a bit different. And I, I specifically structured it like that too, because while I was talking to the teenagers, one of the biggest complaints was like any of the financial, literacy stuff besides influencers. I mean from like the traditional places that they're learning. He's structured

like a textbook and I was like well I'm going to make a financial planning page turner. So it reads like a story for them and that keeps them engaged in it while they're also learning and following along and one of the cool things was getting emails and messages from the teenagers who have read it in high schools being like oh I'm

such a Tanya or my brother such an Oliver and they really identified with these kids. characters. It was cool. Well, good for you. And again, that training you did ahead of time, speaking to so many, that's absolutely pivotal. I mean, in essence, you're testing your material and trying to learn from them, what they need to know, what examples resonate, how to take the story. Without that, I don't care how good a communicator you are. It's very tough to do all this and do it. So congratulations. I'm looking forward to buying and reading it. I enjoy the other books. Thank you. As I said, you're a very strong communicator and you've done, you've done very well.

Okay, let's go to the primary thrust of the conversation. Let's talk a little bit about your company, the industry, some of the challenges you're seeing out there, where does the average Canadian turn for advice? So talk to us a little bit about the fee model, the fee only model. Because most Canadians aren't very familiar with that model. I know. It is changing. I do find now, when I used to, like 15 years ago, if I told someone I was a fee only financial planner, they're just their eyes would just glaze over and they'd be like, what are you talking about? And it felt very niche. Like someone found out about it and they were these hyper-focused personal finance nerds who would find us. That's in the beginning. And now I do feel like it's becoming

more mainstream. And that's because of financial educators and podcasts like yours. Also, I feel like the media, you know, has been talking about fee only. And for anyone also listening, sometimes it's called advice only. And they're the very same thing in my mind. And so that, what that means is we are 100% unbiased in our advice. And so you pay a fee only for our time or for the advice only. And that to me means when you're unbiased and you're holistic in your financial planning. So if someone comes and says, should I pay off my mortgage or put a big chunk on it or should I invest it and we crunch all the numbers, I don't, you know, we don't make more or less money off of you depending on what that decision is. And so for me, that was always something that really frustrated me when I was giving advice when I did have assets under management. And that's not to say that if you have that bias, you're getting bad advice, there's lots and lots of places where you're,

the two of them live beautifully together. Just for me. And so that's what the fee only or advice only space is, is that unbiased, completely you're paying for time and usually paying on a sort of set fee for a project. Right. And again, in Canada, a lot of people tend to default to thinking of advice as investment advice.

But this is a much more holistic approach where you're helping them to develop the portfolio approach, but also tax planning, estate planning, insurance needs analysis, the whole shebang. Yeah, absolutely. It's very comprehensive. and it is holistic. And something that we've done at New School Finance,

which I think is unique in itself, is that, again, when I started in the fee-only space, it really felt like you pay $3,000 or $3,500 for a massive financial plan, which I think is amazing, and it's all retirement, and it's got these 40-year projections. But what if you're in your 40s,

and you just need to get through the next five years because your kids are going to school soon, or you want to know if you can or you've just done a renovation and then interest rates went up and how do you do all this? Real life. Real life. Real people. Real life.

And so sometimes you don't always need the 40 page documents. So we created something called sort of modular financial planning, which is, you know, hence the 30 under 30. It was like a new way of thinking about fee only financial planning where you can still do a comprehensive financial plan for someone, but you can use a timeline that's a lot more focused on like the next five years with cash flow planning. And I find so much of that cash flow planning helpful because at the end of the day, we can look at these projections. But if we don't know how much money is going to go into these accounts every month and where's it going and that support, none of those bigger plans happen. So that's really where we've niched it out too. It all starts

with saving. It's all there. I mean, at the end of the day, it all starts with saving because as you say, you don't know how much is going to the accounts until you know how much you're going to save. I'm getting off topic a bit, but I was very wrong early in my career. about spending summaries. In fact, in the original wealthy barber, I kind of had a couple of the characters roll their eyes and say, I'm not going to write out everything I spend.

It's too much work, blah, blah, blah. Over the years, I've learned that they are incredibly impactful. That when people chronicle everything they spend for a two and three months period, total it up, see where the money is going, where the leaks are, where they're not getting enough joy, et cetera. That tends to be a very important part of this process. Do you guys believe in spending summaries?

Do you use them? And what is the process? So a client comes in the door, he, she, they're 37. What does it look like? I think it depends on the service, but let's just say your typical person who's like, I'm midlife and I want to know if I'm on track for the long run. What do I do?

I think that we do have a spending summary. I will get to my hate of budgets in a second. I don't like budgets either. I hate them. It's like the word diet. I hate it. It feels restrictive. And most people, unless they're engineers or Virgos,

don't love to chronicle every single thing that they're spending money on every single day unless it's for a specific reason. But what you do is we do take a snapshot of cash flow because at the end of the day, this is ultimately what it comes down to because you can know everything there is about investing. But if you don't have cash flow at the end of the day, this is moot. So we take a hard look at what's coming in. You would fill it out for us based on your own, like we have a spreadsheet that you would fill out. And we really break things into like, what are your fixed expenses, the things you have to pay whether you like it or not. And I'm not talking about groceries because groceries are optional in the sense of like you could spend

$100 or $150, right. But I'm talking about mortgage, rent, insurance, car payment, those things. Then we really get people to think long and hard about what those big sort of spikes in spending are. And this is an area that I don't think most people spend enough time on when they're forecasting out spending is like hockey camp for your kid in seven months. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And like those things. So we really do a lot of prompting about forecasting. And then the actual day to day sort of cash flow of your house, that's where groceries, gas. if you take a taxi, if you go for dinner, like all that stuff. And we do that so we can get a snapshot of like what's coming in and what's going

out, where are you at? And this is hugely enlightening for so many people. I would say weekly we get with our clients. I'd say 90% of people are, wow, the homework was like so terrifying and also enlightening because we didn't even realize what was happening. Couldn't agree more. So that's the jumping off point for every meeting. And that's even for clients who are coming in and they're like,

I want to retire in five years, it is still the jumping off point because if you want to know your projected spending in retirement, we need to know what your current lifestyle is and then what's going to change for you when you turn off the income tap. So it's the same for everybody. No, I couldn't agree more. You said that very well. And I agree that when people go through and do, in you case you're called at homework, spending some, whatever, they look at all the ways the money are going out. They're often shocked. Chalked. I mean, they really are surprised. You mentioned a very important point about people tend to forget lump sum obligations that are coming up that aren't a car and house.

So your example I loved, which is the summer hockey school for the daughter or for the son, whomever, those tend to get forgotten, not budgeted for, then impact the cash flow, affect the savings rate and so on and so forth. I mean, you can see why for years I've advocated for pay yourself first. Because I just like taking it off the top and then kind of people have to wing it with what they do going forward. What is the average age of the person that walks in? I mean, obviously average probably is misleading here, but is a wide range of people coming

to see you? Yeah, I would say that our bread and butter is. 37 to 60. So it's a wide range. And I, but it's like that sort of midlife. And I do have a lot of clients who are retiring within the next five years, like in their 60s. But we really excel at that sort of, I were tiring in 10 to 15. I've got everything. I've got everything being thrown at me. And I want to know that I'm okay in the long run. What do I do? And that is like, that is what I would say we are most of the time, but we have lots of clients who are, I'm retiring in five years. Can you run the numbers and make sure this is fine?

I'm retiring next year. And I haven't ever sat down to run these numbers. Are we okay? So there's a lot of that stuff too. And we do get clients who are in their 20s and early 30s. When I was in my 30s, that was predominantly who we were working with people in their 30s and 40s. So we're sort of aging with our clientele, which has been really lovely. You know, we're all, I always don't, we're growing old together.

And every now and then I get people in their 20s, but I, I find that, again, that sort of Gen Z clientele, they're going to other, I would say that they're using a lot of technology first. And so if they're doing it themselves, which is totally great. And only the ones who are really, who really want that sort of deep dive comprehensive plan, it tends to be when the stakes are a little bit higher. No, I agree. One of the criticisms of this industry has been that a lot of times people get outstanding financial plans from people like yourself. but when they go out, they don't implement. They don't go forward with the changes to their saving

and they don't go forward with the investment, the recommendations. How do you get around that? How do you handhold to make sure that takes place? Yeah, there's a couple of things. So number one, we make action item lists, which are like a to-do list. And I find this, we've always done this. And I find it to be so helpful because it's not just like we have the meeting and there's a summary of like what it is.

It's literally a to-do list. It says to-do and there's like one, two, three, four. So when you give someone an action item list like that, it feels more sort of motivating. Like, oh, this is what, it breaks it down instead of just save more or like lower your fees. It's very specific. So these are very specific, very specific and time frames too. Very specific. And then with the review and the monitoring and like follow up, we would just reach out if there was like a timeline.

Hey, how are you doing? The fee only place is difficult for that though because some clients will be like, I'll see you in three years. And some will be like, I want to see you in three months. and it really depends on what they're going through in their life and sort of what they need at that time. Because I don't want someone to pay me in three months to tell them the exact same thing I just said three months ago, right? So you really want to make sure that the next time someone comes in, there's something new to be told or if they need support because they can't, they didn't hit those deadlines. They're like something's not working. Then they'll come in.

Is there a model where they come in and they get the comprehensive financial plan for X dollars, but they're able to come back annually for a lower amount just to, continually have you upgrade, and also to do a little handholding and soothe it. Yes, that would be, I think we'd go out of business without it. I joke, but like, yes, the big plan coming in the door is absolutely the starting off point because from, you know, even from a fiduciary point, you have to look at everything. But if someone wants to come back as an existing client and we don't need to do a full retirement financial plan again, there is absolutely a different price point for that. And in fact, sometimes we would just bill by the hour and it would be very, very, very, very affordable if someone just needed a quick call in.

You know, when you look at the U.S., they tend to be a little ahead of us on the model front when it comes to giving financial advice. You know, 25, 30 years ago, you saw a lot of the advisors on the investment front spin over to the model where they charge 60, 70, 80 basis points a year. And they provided comprehensive financial planning primarily used index funds. They moved away from, you know, mutual funds or stock picking, whatever else. And that model is now making its way to Canada in a pretty big way. on the fee only, the advice only model, what I'm seeing state side is a lot of the people are starting to specialize. So I own a practice, it's fee only financial planning for teachers. Yeah.

I own a practice, it's fee only financial planning for dentists or even it's not occupation for people 55 and up transitioning to retirement. Do you think we'll see that come out in Canada? Yes, I do. I think as a marketplace gets more and more flooded or busy, like there's more fee only planners now than there was 15 years ago. you got to make yourself different as in any industry, right? And so if you're really good at something to what I've noticed, like we don't advertise. Everything is word of mouth.

And I find that the most powerful form of marketing. And so if you're able to have a sort of niche, then you're likely to get more referrals because if you're, let's say that you're a fee only planner for teachers, they're going to tell their teacher friends, right? Oh, you have to see this person. Or if you're the only person that specializes in actors, is that they're going to tell all their friends.

And so I find that the word of mouth is much more likely to happen if you are specializing in something rather than being an overall generalist because you just have that word of mouth factor. You know, in Canada, a lot of people outside of the retirement areas, so let's say under 50, have been loath to part with the money. They have not wanted to write the check for a few thousand dollars to get the comprehensive financial plan. you obviously probably like me because I've tended to say to people, I think in many cases it's worthwhile.

Like it gets you on track and it's often a very good investment that pays for itself over the years. And to your point, you're getting unbiased advice, etc. But how do you get past that? And do you run into it a lot with the 35 and 40 year olds? They say, you know, I don't want to write a check for $3,000, $4,000, whatever. I mean, we are more, nuclear finances is affordable. So number one, I don't know that we get as much pushback if we're in that sort of upper tier of the high net worth financial plan fees. So we are very known for being affordable in the fee only space. Number one.

So we get a lot of yeses that we, I mean, that's our business. But the other thing that I would say is because we offered sort of that modular financial planning, a lot of times clients who were in their 30s and 40s who maybe don't need the, you know, the $2,500 retirement plan, that would be where they would come to us, right? So it's not as expensive. And we could, and then when they need that longer term plan, they can do it then. So we have that offering for them. And we had a lot of people in their 40s come in and get retirement planning in the last five years. It started with the fire movement. I really noticed it. And people who are 40, they're tired, they're mid career. And they're like, how long can I do this until I can slow down? Yeah. And I love those plans because I mean, I'm in my 40s and I'm running them for myself. I'm tired.

But like I love that sort of long term lens and then breaking it into phases for them because It's not necessarily like an income cliff where you just stop working one day. It's more about slowing down, living off other assets for a while. Like, what's the minimum I can make for these years? That's sort of that planning is happening with the 40-year-olds, which is cool. Yeah, I agree. Okay, a couple more questions on the part of the industry you're involved with, and then we'll go to broad financial planning.

Great. Is this very software-oriented? Are you using more and more software as you develop the plans over the last five to 10 years? Yeah. So we use software that does a lot of the cash flow projections, especially for any of the retirement planning and that kind of thing, obviously. The cash flow piece that we're doing, like the jumping off point with some of the homework, is still very basic Excel.

And like, I love a spreadsheet. I love a spreadsheet. And most people can, is really accessible, right? So they like to be in there. They can do it. And I have this philosophy where, you know, while we're in the session, I'll be updating any changes from projections and whatnot live in that spreadsheet. And then I flip it back over.

So there's also like, here's how you use this for yourself as well going forward. if you want to like change something or something in your life changes, you can also adapt it and change the inputs yourself, which is great. But for any of the sort of comprehensive financial planning where we're doing long-term cash flow, we use software for sure. Now, in your industry, as companies have tried to grow as they've tried to scale, the challenge has been labor. Yeah.

It's been finding the people who have your educational background, the CFP, etc. And getting them to come over this direction. Have you tried to scale? Have you run into that same challenge? Yep. So yes, I have definitely, I mean, we have nine people in our office, which for a fee-only shop, I think it's very exciting. So even though we're a micro business, and I often say that in a fee-only space, scaling looks like a staircase because of the labor costs, right? So you go, you jump up with a person and it takes a long time to fill them up and then everyone's busting at the seams and you're, you don't want to cannibalize your own sales and you do it again.

And so it's been a long haul, I mean, I'm 15 years in. And yes, scaling is possible, but it takes time. It's not instant. And you have to have the right people. So something else about being in the fee only space is you need to have passionate professionals who are not going to compare the trajectory of income and lifestyle to those who are in the assets and their management world. It is very different. And you will like, I look at some of my former colleagues and I'm like, they have a boat. I do not. And that's okay. You know what I mean? It's, okay. And so if you're interested in the family space, you're probably a certain type of person. And so that to me has been, I feel like I've been very lucky with my team. I'm very grateful for all of them. They are passionate. They are smart. And I also hired people who weren't necessarily like a financial planner. And then we trained them and paid for their education while they were being a junior over the years. And so I also feel like that was necessary to happen in order to sort of make it doable. Let's spin over to financial planning and the state of Canadians' finances

right now. And let's look at the younger people. I've talked a lot recently on the podcast about what a challenging situation they're up against. And a lot of boomers don't recognize that the cost of living has gone up much more dramatically than wages have, especially in the last five and six years, but with real estate the last 25 to 30 years, are you seeing the same thing? And then it comes down not to complex financial planning, but basic arithmetic. It's hard for a lot of the people in the lower 50% of income to make ends meet now. Yes. I would even say in that like the middle class is getting squeezed and squeezed and squeezed and squeezed. I'm seeing this all the time every single day. I do think there's a disconnect. People love a story about avocado toast or or like Uber

eating a cookie. People love to make fun. I think that those are symptoms of just like, what's the point in trying? There's a hopelessness that's kind of happened if I can't buy a house. What's the point? Like, I'm going to do it anyways. I'm going to spend my money on the small luxuries. And I completely understand the want to do that. Yes, I'm seeing it.

I think housing is the most crippling thing in any budget, whether it's rent or high mortgages. When I started in this business 20 years ago, retiring with a mortgage was unheard of. And now I'm running numbers for people. They still have a few hundred thousand dollars outstanding on their mortgage or maybe more, depending on when they bought their house because they bought later. Houses were more expensive. And so a lot of the other planning that I'm doing with people who are in their 30s and 40s that were working on setting them up for success is like trying to balance most of the cash flow being.

And these are people with on paper decent incomes. Right. And they're feeling broke. and they're like, look what's going to groceries now. Look what's going to housing. And even my kids' swimming lessons. Like, what am I, how am I supposed to save? And so it is really becoming difficult unless you have generational wealth and to buy a home

in the first place or not have a giant mortgage. And if you have a giant mortgage, you better have the income to back it up. And this is something that's nerve-wracking because I think that's leading to generalized anxiety because I have so many people who are like, if I lose my, my job, I don't know if I'd replace the income that I'm at, and I'm not, I'm not sure what we would do. And this is a conversation that's happening. And this is with people who have great incomes. And it's just where the sort of economy has landed them with all the housing prices and with interest rates and inflation. You said all that very well. And I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, it is tight for a lot of people.

And again, a lot of boomers love to point at some of the wasteful spending. And by the way, some of it's true. like I look at what people spend on weddings now, including a lot of pinched people and I go, holy smokers. And of course, I've complained about cars for 40 years. But all that aside, come on, even people handling their money responsibly now, it's very difficult. And you're on the front line. And by the way, I give you a lot of credit.

You can really see with your answers that you're not dealing in the world of theory and you are out there on the front line as you talk about examples like the swimming lessons because that's what I see when I look at all the people spending summaries. It's those things adding up now. that are killing people. We go back to home ownership. It's not just the mortgage, and they're often hugely expensive. Property taxes, home insurance, slight upkeep expenses, they've all risen much more quickly than inflation in the last five, six, seven years. And you add it all up together. It is tight. And you know, you use the expression generational wealth. What's interesting to me is we're

now seeing a lot of parents give kids money or grandkids in some instances. Where you wouldn't describe them as having generational wealth, but they're doing it because they know if they don't, don't, the kids are probably blocked out from achieving some of their goals. And so to your point about going into retirement with a mortgage, look at all the people going to retire with lines of credit because they're bored to help their kids buy a house. You are so right. You are so right. Another thing that I'm running a lot of numbers on too is how much can I gift my adult children and still be okay for retirement. And again, we're not talking about someone that I would consider in an ultra high net worth or anything like this. We're talking about the middle class. The middle

class, getting ready for retirement. Can I give my kid, you know, six figures and still be okay? And, and, you know, again, just in relation to what I used to see, it used to be like, you know, maybe the parents would help out with like $5,000 and everyone was thrilled about this. And now it's like, parents are wanting to light themselves on fire financially to keep their kids warm. And, and their adult children warm because they're blocked out and there's no other way. And they're, they're so nervous for this, the next generation. And so I have a lot of empathy and a lot of care for that too. I agree. And I loved your example when you said to 5,000 because you're right. It used to be those types of amounts. And now oftentimes you're seeing people who don't have

the retirement, the well at hand, it's 80,000. It's 100,000. Remember a couple years ago, the one bank study came out and they said they thought up to 21 or 24% if they get the exact figure of parents were helping their kids out. Every realtor I know laughed at that and said, are you kidding? It's 75%. It's not showing up officially because they're not co-signing on the loan, but they're giving them the money. And of course, there's no. tracking of that. But 75% of the time when the markets were hot in 21, early 22, you had parents involved to some extent. My dad has joked that we all need to start dying at 75. Because if we know exactly what we're going to die, we can plan. Plus, we don't have all those extra years. And of course,

he's kidding. But I get his point. We're living to be older and older and older at a time when things are more and more pinched. By the way, you were saying you had asked a lot about can't a parent afford to give it to the kids. My kids ask me that all the time. They say, dad, run those numbers again. There's no way you can't be giving us more. There's got to be some way you can figure this out. So, yeah, no, it is, it is tight. And it upsets me the boomers don't see it. And, you know, a lot of the boomers say to me, well, Dave, it's always been tough.

That is true. It's always been tough to buy a home. And that interest rates are lower now than they have been at many other times and on average. And that takes away some of the pain. That's true. Not all of it, but some of it. But what they don't get is the down payment challenge.

Yeah. When you've had home prices go up two or three times as fast as income is over a 30-year period, if you buy a home and, Toronto, a starter home can be $700,000, $800,000. Yeah. You have to save $140 to $160,000 for the down payment debt to 20% bar. How do people do that after tax? Right.

And if you do do that, you're doing nothing else. Yes. You're not saving in a TFSA, RSP for your futures and so on and so forth. So, you know, the point I'm trying to make now and I'm kind of taking over, I apologize. I will stop in a second is we as a country, I think, have to start viewing housing as infrastructure, that affordable housing is as important to our future as the electric grid. as clean water, et cetera. So when you view it that way and you think it's got to be one of your top priorities,

then maybe we can garner more cooperation between the three levels of government. We can have more innovative solutions, et cetera, to addressing this. Now, on a good news front, rents are coming down in a lot of the markets across Canada. And it's making a big difference. Like if your rent goes down two, three, four hundred a month, well, that all of a sudden is a help with the TFSA, et cetera. But, you know, I'm sure you're seeing it. I'm seeing people have even fewer kids.

We were trending down. and now it's trending now a little more because of costs. Yeah. Like it's crazy. It's starting to impact every part of these young people's lives. Yeah, I have the conversation a lot around, should I even, like, when I do talk to some of the younger people, it's like, should I even have kids because I can't afford it?

And that breaks my heart as a mom. I'm like, you'll make it work. Like I get so emotional about it. I think there's also something to be said to. And this is sort of maybe that middle ground between where people are, you know, getting judgmental about the types of expenditures, but also, yes, it's always been tough, but then what's changed, I have noticed, as well with housing, that our expectations around what's normal has really changed as well. So I grew up in the suburbs and, you know, we had

weird tiles for a long time and like, and like ugly cabinets. Like my parents didn't like rush to redo the basement and like fix the, fix the weird tiles and that you just like had them. And no one else, everyone else's house had weird things in them and it was fine. And now if you buy a new house, you're like expected to sort of like make sure that the floors match and that the cabinets aren't, aren't, are not dated. And that's just like sort of part of the zygist. Like I had a, I had a friend buy a first time home and in her 40s and we, you know, we had a housewarming and someone was like, so what are you going to do?

What are you going to do with the kitchen? And it was meant as a loving question. It was not meant to insult. And so we just have these expectations now, I blame social media, that's really shifted and ratcheted up the cost of living for us. And we think it's normal. We have like a financial dysmorphia happening as well. You said that very well.

And I think social media has compounded it. But interestingly, I think it goes back to what HGTV took off. I think even before social media, that started this problem. I saw it in Reynolds because what I would see is friends spending way too much on rentals relative to their incomes. And it's because, again, we've normalized those kinds of high-end things. I loved your point about having strange things in all the houses when we grew up. Like my best friend was Jeff Garrett and we would go over and play in his basement. He and his brother and I all the time. And his dad got sick of us coming upstairs. And right in the

middle of the basement, he put a urinal on the wall, not even in a bathroom. He just stuck a urinal in the wall. Can you imagine doing that now? They'd take you away. And so everything has changed. Our expectations have gone up. In fact, that's one of the few boomer criticisms of the younger generation, that's probably true. Yes. That we do have higher expectations on what that first home should look like. And same with travel. There's a higher expectation now that travel is going to be a bigger part of our lives.

There's lots of good to that too, though. I like people spending money on experiences. I also find a lot of young people are very adept at traveling inexpensively. They're very good at finding discounted flights and staying in inexpensive places. But no, your point about expectations is bang on. And of course, that compounds are already existing. problem. But going back, you're in Toronto and so you'll see it. And again, a lot of Canadians have lost track of this. If you have two young teachers in Toronto and they get married and they're

early on that pay scale in Toronto and they're trying to buy home and they're trying to, holy smoke, it's hard to make it. And remember, we're not talking about two minimum wage jobs here. That would be impossible. We're talking about two young teachers. And it's hard to get through. And so you can see why they're coming to you and saying, I'm not sure about kids. It's basic arithmetic. I don't know if I can add a child or two to the math mix here and get where I want to get. That's correct. And the other question is around, sure, I can afford it. But what is going to be given up in exchange for?

And is that the kind of parent that I always imagined that I would be? The one that couldn't, you know, that had to struggle for everything, worried about money, like all that. And there's this anxiety about being stressed out about that stuff. And I think that this younger generation, even below mine, has grown up with their eyes, wide open to the economic reality. Like I was, I'm, I'm an elder millennial. I'm on the cusp. And I grew up thinking everything was going to be hunky dory. And then, and then I was like, oh, wow, this is really way harder than I was sort of like, quote, promise or thought it was going to be. The generation below me is like, oh, they saw that coming a mile away. And so I do feel like the,

they're looking at things. Do I go to school? Is it worth it? Do I have kids? Is it worth it? Is it worth it? Is it to live in this country? Like they're having these sort of conversations about is it worth it in a way that I was so blindsided by reality when I reached my 20s. And I feel for them, but also maybe it will lead to, you know, good decisions or maybe they won't get themselves into trouble. But it makes me sad when people feel like they can't afford the life that they ever wanted. Because I feel like hope is like the biggest asset that we have in our finances.

And when you don't have it. it, you're much more likely not to get ahead because you're going to give up. No, I agree with all of that. You know, some of this thinking, though, that's being forced on people is quite healthy. I think in the next five to 10 years, the examination of whether I think I should go on to a post-secondary school and spend all of that money is going to be looked at very closely. And in some cases, the answer will be a resounding yes. But in many cases, people say with all the alternative ways to learn now, and of course,

with AI coming on fast, there'll be way more alternative ways. and also the way people are going to hire going forward, where it's going to be more about testing to see if they match up to the needs of the company, et cetera. I could see education being hit on a lot of fronts. You know, talking about all the ripple impacts of this, we're seeing it with a slightly declining divorce rate in the last few years too,

because a lot of people are going, quite, go up to the reality of the real estate market, and we are not going to be living in places we want to live in. If we end up separating, let's either figure out a way to improve this marriage or let's separate but live together. I see that all the time. Yeah, that's so close.

common now. In fact, it's funny, the number of people who say, well, I went on a date and I picked up my date and the husband or wife answered the door. And it's a little jarring, but it's the current reality. This is not something you see one in a million times anymore. This is fairly commonplace. Yep. I see all kinds of creative solutions to get around it. And obviously the housing market and the rental market is like directly related to that. It is so expensive to separate because you're running two houses now, but you're now running a full place on your own with one income or you could share it and divide. So people, you know, constraints breed innovation. And so we are, it's a whole new, it's a whole new landscape out there. You know, you're saying about constraints breed innovation. One of the ideas I've seen is that they're renting a small, they stay in the house. And then they also rent a, you know, small one bedroomer and they flip back and forth between the two. And then the kids can stay in the house all the time, can stay in the same school, surrounded by the same friends.

They don't have to go through a discombobulating time. That actually makes a lot of sense. I just ran a plan with that last week. That's exactly the solution. And it does make it. But you know, it's funny because you're again front line here is even these small one bedroom apartments are so expensive now that they impact the personal finances dramatically. So it seems like it's a great idea. And it is a solid idea to research. But it's no easy path to getting through all of this. It's, yeah, it's challenging out there. I do want to point out there are still lots of younger people doing very well. I mean, I hear from them all the time. There's lots of people. High income people tend to marry high income people more now than they used to. And so that group is doing. well. In fact, I made a point the other day that if you look at, say, the top 10%, they're always doing well by income, obviously. The next 30% tends to always be doing well. The next 30 you can't define. Some have help from parents. Some don't. Some bought before 2015 and got in before the big leg

up. Others didn't. Others are very good. It gets all over the map. Who lives in an expensive city? Who lives in a relatively inexpensive area? There's no way to summarize those people in any kind of neat package like economists tried to do. They're all over the map. But there are still lots of young people doing well. We should note that. But unfortunately, there's more as a percentage not doing well than there ever have been. Yes, I would agree with that. And I think I have an unfair view into the ones that are doing well because I am a fee-only financial planner. The ones that are coming to see me are ones who can, you have incomes that are feeling overwhelmed, but there are options, right? No, that's exactly right. Whereas I tend to be in the other front, the people get in

in touch with me a lot or scrambling. And they're saying, you know, what would you do? Of course, in a lot of cases, there's no answer. Because when you're expensive, even your basic expenses are exceeding your income, that's a challenging situation. There's no easy response to that. Let's go to retirement planning. You know, it's interesting that people kind of forget the fact that when you're retired, you have all these sources of income now.

Instead of just getting your employer income, your T4, you've got pension income, you're drawing from your RSP, you may be drawing from your TFSA, you've got CPP, you've got OAS. Navigating all of that and optimizing on the tax front is very challenging. Is that one of the big offerings of a fee-only financial planner? Yes. I mean, I think it's the offering of any financial planner worth their salt. I think that's one of the greatest gifts that you can give someone in the retirement planning. How do you pull money out of all these places and when? Right. How do you, when do you take the CPP in the old age security? Do you wait till 70 so you get the boost? How much inflation protected income do you have in your house? What's that going to do the taxes? What's the clawback? Are you ripping? Are you lipping? Are you TFSA and what is happening? And so you need someone to look at your specific advice. not to something you Google, put it all together and see sort of like what's that sort of optimal place and what makes sense for you too. This is, I often refer to retirement as like a portal

because it is one of life's major life transitions to go from someone who's earning and saving to someone who's no longer earning and you're withdrawing. It is really scary to see money come out of your riff and that's your grocery money and your housing money. And if you hear about stock market volatility, it just can send you into such a tizzy. And so if you know that you've got that financial plan and you know what it's supposed to be, you can, like at 3 a.m., you can breathe because you're like, no, no, this was supposed to happen. And I know I'm doing it in the way that makes the most sense. No, you said all that well. Isn't it fascinating how the difference psychologically between the people with the defined benefit pension plans and the people drawing even more money in many cases

from this great pool of capital they've built up, but they ever trouble sleeping for obvious reason. There's no guarantees, there's no inflation adjustments. And it's just a different scenario completely when you're dealing with the people in those two camps. There's a lot of good research out of the states about how much more peace of mind people have when they have a regular amount of monthly income coming in. It's one of the reasons why for most, not all, but for most, I think delaying CPP is often a very good move because it fights that longevity risk, but it's also inflation protected. As it goes on, that's a dream come true product for most Canadians. I completely agree. and we really specialize in self-employed people.

I just go finance. I don't know what it is about me. I'm like a self-employed magnet. And so I'm often having lots of questions about, you know, making sure people are paying into CPP. I'm a big believer in it because of the longevity risk and because of the inflation protected nature. And if you're self-employed, you might have one of those special gifts

of sort of working in your 60s because you've got a business that you can pull back, but you still have some income. And you can play with it in a little bit more of a way rather than this income cliff that you kind of jump off of into the unknown. And so I'm a big fan of, you know, if we're taking CPP at 65 or earlier, there better be a darn good reason. That's usually what I go into it because I completely agree with the longevity.

And it's such a nice boost of inflation-protected income for someone who may not have any in their portfolio at all. But I was laughing saying to a couple other people we've had on the show that you've got all these experts like you saying that. And I think you said that really well. You better have a darn good reason. I like that phrasing. And we're all saying more or less the same thing. We've all crunched the numbers extremely carefully. And I find a lot of people say, I get it.

I know you're right. I'm taking it right now. 100%. If my parents are listening, them. Like, I mean, even my closest friends who think I'm very good at all this stuff. They know my math backer. They'll say, Dave, yeah, yeah, you've got that right, but I've still taken it. You know what are you going to do?

It's, it's, I paid into it, especially with CPP. Yeah. I paid into it. What if I die? And at 75, and I just got a. for five years after paying into it my whole life. So there is, I think it's that I'm going to enjoy it while I have it. And to say no to money, especially old age security, which feels like free money, even

that we all know it's not, but you know what I'm saying, is difficult to do, right? You really got to have a long-term lens for that. And I think it also goes into that fear of pulling from the portfolio. So if you have CPP and OAS coming in at 65, you're going to rely less on it because people really want to cling to their savings for as long as possible. and so it's something to coach through or they just do it and we're just like, we're going to yolo, we're going for it. So it's fine.

A lot of my friends have gone through exactly what you're talking about. I'm old as you know and a lot of them are even a little older than I am. And they've really gone through that nerve-wracking adjustment to taking money out and then starting to panic of do I have enough. People are living to be 98. And then they're thinking, what about assisted living and its costs have gone way up? And I always say to them, those are very natural fears. Like they're very hard in themselves for being nervous.

I said, I'd be nervous too. Like, that makes perfect sense. So let's just kind of talk it all through and you go to see an expert like you and as you say, develop the best possible plan you can. They're still nervous, though, because of course, every plan has assumption decks. Totally. And they're worried what if something happens outside of the assumption deck that throws things off? And so I get all of that.

It is tricky. It really is. Let's go back to my dad's theory. We just all need to die at 75. By the way, what a hypocrite. This guy's like 114. Yeah, right? So he just wants to keep, yeah.

He wants to keep living forever, but he wants to keep. all of us to die at 75. One of the most selfish people I've ever crossed fast with. All right. And wrapping up, you know, kind of what's your big thought right now? What's a worry that you have? And what's something that gives you some hope and optimism as you look at everything? Great question. Something that I worry about is sort of wage stagnation over time and not keeping pace with the cost of living for generations of people. And the expectational squeeze and the emotional part of that and how that's going to, we're going to have, we're almost like reverting to the mean a little bit of what's normal. And I think it's going to be painful if it happens that way. However, what gives me

hope in that is that people are creative resourceful and whole. And even though some of this adjustments that we might be going through in the next 10 years, there's lots of uncertainty, the job market is, you know, wages are unknown, cost of living might be going. We don't know exactly what's going to happen. We are resilient. and there have been dark times financially before in the world, right? Sure. And we can look back at those, remember how we felt during them, and then say, you know what, there's a long, like keep that long term lens and that long term hope.

And even though things are hard and painful sometimes, we can pull together and we can make it work. So I've seen so many people make things work, including myself. And it makes me very hopeful that life is going to. throw us all lemons and you can still make maybe not as sweet as you'd like but you can still make lemonade no that's very well said and you wrapped the answers together there you gave us concerns but also some reason for optimism and hope and i i really like that response and i i i i go back and forth some days i'm incredibly optimistic about the impact it's going to have and some days i'm beyond

fearful for my kids grandkids etc and so it's all over the map i don't know if you have looked at the new wealthy barber when i was writing the preface one of a testers one of the testers got in touch with me and said, you know, what happens if AI comes along and wipes out 30 to 40 percent of jobs? What would your position be then? And I said, fetal. Like, I don't have any answers to that. If we lose 30 to 40 percent of jobs, you know, for an extended period, that's going to be beyond tough for everybody. So, no, your answer was wonderful. So was the interview. And I can see why you've broken through and done as well in your career as you have. You have my word. I will be buying the new book within the next week. And I will read through it. I enjoyed the first three very much.

So thank you so so much for coming on. Oh, thank you so much for having me. All right, stay in touch.