The Wealthy Barber Podcast - Barry Choi: Credit Cards and Loyalty Points—How to Get the Most Value | TWB Podcast #6

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

Our guest this episode is Barry Choi, the ultimate expert on all things credit card points and loyalty programs in Canada. You may also know him from his frequent TV appearances or his personal finance website www.moneywehave.com. In this episode Dave asks Barry everything Canadians need to know about credit card points and loyalty programs including which programs offer the most lucrative sign-up bonuses, tips for how to maximize the value of your points, which card is best for travel and much, much more.  This is a highly informative episode and you’ll be sure to take away a few valuable tips by listening.   Show Notes 00:00 – Intro & Disclaimer 00:56 – Intro to Barry Choi 03:02 – Loyalty Programs and Data 06:35 – Learn a Few Programs Inside Out 08:51 – Transferring Points to Increase Value 10:47 – Credit Card Points as an Employee Benefit 12:04 – Tips to Maximize Points 14:39 – How to Optimize Points for Travel 17:12 – Which Credit Card is Right for You 18:56 – Sign-Up Bonuses 22:16 – Dave’s Reservations About Credit Cards 25:32 – High-Income Canadians with Credit-Card Balances 28:01 – Barry’s Spending 30:02 – When Barry Took His Family to Hong Kong 34:09 – American Express 37:37 – Dave Doesn't Use Airport Lounges 38:26 – Non-Point Benefits 41:20 – The Lifecycle of a Fintech Company 42:25 – Consumerism & Stuff 45:49 – Donating Loyalty Points 46:58 – Fraud with Loyalty Points 48:37 – Conclusion

Hey, it's Dave Chilton, The Wealthy Barber and former Dragon on Dragon's Den. Welcome to The Wealthy Barber Podcast, where we'll be hosting some of the top minds in the world of personal finance. Yes, that's to balance me out. The podcast is about making the subject not just easy to understand, but dare I say, even fun, honest. Whether you're trying to fund your retirement, figure out how to build a you're trying to fund your retirement, figure out how to build a down payment, save for your kids' education, manage debts, whatever, we'll be here to help you do it. Before we jump in, a quick but important note, nothing we discuss here should be taken as investment advice. We don't know you and your

personal financial situation, so we're not here to tell you we're specifically to put your investment dollars. We're here to educate, get you thinking, and we hope entertain. But please do your own research and or consult with your financial advisor before taking any action. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Wealthy Barber podcast, episode six. We're on a roll right now. The podcast is picking up a lot of momentum, a lot of positive feedback. I'm enjoying doing it immensely and sounds funny. I'm learning a lot. We've had such great guests that I've really learned a lot from them, the way they think, new things that are happening out there, the problems they're running into. It's been very, very good for me and I think very good for the listeners as well. Excited about today's guest. I've known him for a long time, Barry Choi. Barry and I first met

eight, nine years ago. We were discussing at a symposium and he introduced me and we had a chance to chat after. And of course, a lot of you've seen Barry. He does a tremendous amount of TV. He was in the TV business at one time as a producer. Now he's on there normally talking about his two areas of expertise that we'll be delving into today, credit cards, loyalty points, travel, and how they all tie together and some tips of the trade, some things to watch out for and so on and so forth. Barry has a website, moneywehave.com, but probably he's most often seen on his Instagram account, which is Barry underscore Choi, where he puts out videos and great information and keeps you up to date on all things loyalty point related, all things credit card related. Very credible guy. Nobody knows this area more

than he does. And I mean that. He is viewed as the guy. Nobody knows this area more than he does. And I mean that. He is viewed as the number one expert in this area by the Canadian media. That's why he's brought on so often. So we're thrilled that he found time for us. Barry, how are you? Good. Thanks for having me. That is quite the praise, especially for your previous guests. It's funny because all of us say the same thing about you. We've learned so much from you. You're one of the reasons we all got into this. So it's great to see you back in some form on this podcast. Yeah, thank you.

I thought I should come back before I died. And it's getting close. I don't want to age myself, but we're all feeling it once you get to a certain age, right? Well, you look great and we both have good hair. In fact, I was saying we really are only having guests on with good hair. That's our filter. Definitely a requirement. And I've got makeup and everything. So, you know, I try to put on appearances just for you.

No, you look great. So lots, lots of talk about here. And, you know, this is an area that I haven't spent much time in. So if you read The Wealthy Barber, if you listen to me on stage, I don't tend to talk about this area a lot. So it'll be interesting for me to hear from you all of the different perspectives. But the thing I want to start with, walk our audience through the difference between loyalty points, loyalty programs, and typical credit card programs. What's the distinction? They're all very different. They're all kind of loyalty programs in one way or another. So you could say like loyalty programs are store, airlines, merchants, things like that. So to give you an example, Aeroplan, PC Optim PC optimum air miles, those are very specific. And, and this is interesting from a consumer and a merchant perspective, because

they can see exactly what you're buying. So it's no coincidence that Metro is prompting you with a butter coupon two weeks after you purchased it, like, I don't know how often they think you're using butter, but two weeks seems a bit extreme to go through an entire entire stick of butter. But when you look at credit card companies, you know, American Express, RBC, they can see how much you're spending overall

on your credit card. And this is relevant to them because they want to lock you in as a customer. So if they're seeing this person is spending $100,000 on their credit card, always paying it off, probably implies you make a lot of money or you have high net worth. They're going to start pushing you higher credit limits, personal banking, if you're already in the banking system. So in the end right now,

it's all data. So obviously when you started this, loyalty programs existed, but they weren't as unique as they are now. So they've gotten better. But the question is, is it actually better for consumers? Because the reality is that all these merchants, these banks, they've already factored in the costs. So it is costing you something. And more importantly, if you do not participate in loyalty points,

you're essentially losing money. So let's just get this out of the way before people ask. Loyalty programs are not going to cancel it and give you discounts. So just get that idea out of your head. Like ask. Loyalty programs are not going to cancel it and give you discounts. So just get that idea out of your head. Like it's just never going to happen. Someone always leaves a comment when I talk about loyalty programs.

Like, oh, why don't they just get rid of them and we all save money. It's just not happening, guys. So let's just move on. Well, and it's partially because of what you said. They want the data. Data is... So it's not just to lock you in the loyalty. They want the data.

That's today's oil, as is often said. And I think it's exactly right. Yeah, it's actually fascinating. As someone who writes about loyalty, so first I participated in loyalty because I wanted to get free hotel stays. It was just that simple in my early 20s. I was looking for cheap ways to save. Back then, loyalty programs, it was the wild, wild west because they're with outstanding value and obviously an internet. It wasn't new, but it wasn't as easy to really learn about where the outstanding value was and some loyalty programs they were just worth a lot because not everyone was into loyalty but these days now I'm more than happy to give up my data if it relates to how I'm going to spend in certain ways right so I'm okay

if like you know here's my data you're going to pop me with ways, right? So I'm okay if like, you know, here's my data. You're going to pop me with a coupon or whatever, come back, or you know certain areas I'm looking for, like a certain flight, like, you know, your cookies on a web browser. It's no different. So to me, it's all good, but I certainly understand why some people feel creeped out by the whole process. I agree.

Because it is really weird when you think about it. Now, going back to something you said earlier, I think is a key point. They are factoring all this into the prices of the goods and the prices of the services. We're in essence paying for them ourselves. Therefore, if we don't use the loyalty points that we have access to, that we should be using, we're paying prices above what we normally would. And I don't think enough people think that through. You've got to throw yourself into these programs to some extent. That's exactly it. If you don't participate, you're losing money. It's that simple. So you've got to participate. And more importantly, you've got to be actively engaged. And I'm not saying you need to know

every single program inside out. But for me, most people, if you know two or three loyalty programs, just really how to earn those points and how to redeem them, it's good value. So like one grocery, one gas, one travel. And even in an ideal scenario, if you can get into a program where you can earn similar points, even better, right? So for example, PC Optum, Love Lost on grocery stores. I happen to shop a lot of no frills because I find it to be the cheapest place. It's a joke. A certain family member of mine, I can't say who, works for this company. But she's like, oh, let's shop here.

I get 10% off. I'm like, yo, it's still cheaper. I couldn't know. And I get my loyalty points. But the point is also, I also fill up at Esso gas stations because it happens to be the closest to me. So I also earn up at Esso gas stations because this happens to be the closest to me. So I also earn PC Optum points. But knowing the programs inside out, it can be very valuable. So one good example is PC Optum.

10,000 points normally gets you $10 in groceries. However, 10,000 points also gets you any car wash at Esso gas stations, which includes deluxe car washes, you know, with the underwash and everything, right? And what's the retail value of that? $22. Yeah, that's pretty good. Exactly. You're doubling the value of your loyalty points. So come winter, which we're just around the corner, it's like, I wash my car every single week just because I can't.

You know what I mean? But you know, those are just some really easy things to look at. And on top of that, Shoppers Drug Mart, yes, very expensive. No doubt about that. But they just had a Black Friday redemption event where if you redeem 400,000 points, this is just an example.

They had different tiers. Normally, that's worth $400. They were giving $700 off. So you're getting an additional $300. So it's crazy when you start to learn about these programs. No different from travel.

If you have a general idea of what your loyalty program is worth. So we're talking about bank programs versus merchant programs. So Aeroplan obviously is owned by Air Canada. And one point is worth roughly 1.5 to 2 cents each. It obviously differs depending on what flight you're redeeming for. But let's just say you're using CIBC, BMO, RBC, whatever points, right? One point is typically worth only one cent. So knowing the different partners or different airlines where you can get increased value, it's very valuable. Is there a way to

transfer points from one program to another where they have a higher value or is that forbidden? It is allowed, but it really depends on the individual program. So American Express has two really great, valuable partners. Number one is Aeroplan. You can transfer your points one-to-one. And like I was just saying, one Aeroplan point is worth 1.5 to 2 cents each. So you can potentially double the value of your points. Potentially even more if you really dive deep into Aeroplan. We don't need to talk about that now. We'll talk about it later. They also have MirrorUp Envoy. You can transfer your points to one-to-one. Now, the funny thing is MirrorUp Envoy points are typically worth about 0.9 cents each. So the value is about the same. However, with mirror up on void, when you book five nights on points, you only pay for four nights on point. So you can get value when you're

thinking about the bigger aspect of things. And this is where it really ties back to what I'm saying. Really trying to understand two or three programs inside out. And that's where you start to see your value RBC. They've got a few partners in WestJet and British Airways. So there are ways to get increased value. But again, it comes down to knowing the programs and what you can use them for. So again, just a little bit of knowledge goes a long way. We do the Scene Plus card, and then my assistant Marine steals the points, puts them on gift certificates and gives them to her kids. So from a financial planning perspective, that is not ideal.

Well, it depends on how you look at it, right? So SYNCLUS is good if it happens to be the closest grocery store for you. Like I would never tell people, oh, this loyalty program is better for you. Drive 20 minutes, go to this grocery store. Or if there's a local independent grocery store that just has the lowest prices, yeah, go there, right? But, you know, you're talking about those gift cards. From a financial planning perspective, it's arguably a good thing because if you're maximizing the game, earning those points, using them for gift cards, whether it be for groceries, restaurants, or movies, they're still saving money. Yeah, but Barry, you're missing it. Mo's saving the money. I'm not still saving money. Yeah, but Barry, you're missing it. Mo's saving the money. I'm not saving the money. Well, so it's not so good for you, but it actually ties back to something that I talk to a lot with companies, right? With big businesses, organizations where

I do a lot of guest speaking. And I tell people, it's like, you know what? It's one thing to have a corporate credit card. And I totally understand that it's very easy for accounting purposes to do so. But one really low paying for employee benefits is let them book their travel expenses on their own credit card because they know they're going to get their points. You reimburse them in a reasonable amount of time and they'll be absolutely thrilled with that, especially if they have high expenses. And they'll be absolutely thrilled with that, especially if they have high expenses. It doesn't really cost the company anything, but the employee engagement that makes them so happy is absolutely crazy. And let's be fair. Let's just say you want to be greedy and you want to keep all those points.

Nothing wrong with that, especially if you've only got two or three employees. At least sign up with a program that's going to give you a lot of points. Don't just sign up with your first bank because they offered you a good banking package and you take their business credit card. Find out which program benefits you the most, especially if you're a small business owner that say is buying $20,000, $30,000 worth of products or expenses every single month. That's a lot of points you can earn.

You want them to be points that are actually valuable to you. So when you take that well-deserved vacation, it's pretty much free. When I listened to you talk about all this, I realized there's a lot of information I need to you. So when you take that well-deserved vacation, it's pretty much free. When I listened to you talk about all this, I realized there's a lot of information I need to know. Even to stay on top of one, two, three programs, are there, in essence, tip sheets put out, summary sheets? Do you do that type of thing on your website or on your Instagram account where you say, hey, here are the four or five key things you need to know about each of these programs? Yeah. So on Instagram, I talk about it all the time, but we'll talk about it right now really, really quickly.

And so number one thing I tell people is like, think about your goals, number one. So for a lot of people, it's travel. They want to earn points to travel for cheap. The question is, where do you want to go? What's your actual goal? Do you want to go to Europe? Do you want to go to Asia?

Do you want to go somewhere all-inclusive, right? So once you've established that, you need to ask yourself, what kind of points will get you there? In most cases, Aeroplan will be the best option. Even if you're in Alberta and you fly WestJet regularly, WestJet has a limited fleet. So if you want to go to a very specific place in ancient Europe, it's going to be very difficult on WestJet. But with Aeroplan, because they basically fly to 180 plus destinations, you can get almost anywhere, plus they have 45 plus partners. So you focus on those points, then you know what points to get. Next question is, what credit card do I need to sign up for

to get me those Aeroplan points? Right, to optimize. Right? And then simply, it's a matter of how many points do I need for that redemption? How long is it going to take me to get there? Are there other ways to earn? So it's really just a three or four step process. And for other people, sometimes it's really simple. I just want to save money on grocery. So like you said, you collect 10 plus points. If it happens to be the closest grocery store, of course, it makes sense. Shop there, right?

At Metro. But for PC Optum, Superstore, Love Laws, No Frails. What other partners? What other ways can you earn points? Quite often, it's a credit card. Does that credit card paying an annual fee make sense if you're earning more points? So specifically for ScenePlus, if you have the Scotiabank Gold AMAC, it gives you six times the points at Empire All Grocery Store. So you can rack up those points very, very quickly. And then, you know, are you playing it with your partner? Are you each getting a credit card to maximize signup bonuses? You know, I give my wife grief all the time whenever she

shops on Amazon, because Amazon is an Aeroplan partner. So if you go through the e-store, you get two bonus points. And every single time I get an alert because it's tied to my account, it's like, oh, item has to be in order. Item has to be shipped. I go to my wife, I'm like, did you go through the e-store so I can get those extra points? It's like, oh no, I forgot. And I'm like, Dave, I've been married to her 14 years. She still doesn't get it. Would you ever just leave her? Would you just, would this end it ever? You know what? Sometimes it depends on what we're talking about. Right. But to tie back in, like, you know, I don't expect everyone to do what I do, but I do know that the earlier you plan for verification,

the more opportunity there is for you to get a good redemption and to earn more points. So the name of the game for travel points to maximize or minimize how many points you're using is to plan a year ahead, or to plan 10 days in advance. So I'm always on my wife, I was just like, listen, we need to know where we're going next year, we need to go next year. And this is a very practical example. We had finally decided in 2025, we're going to go to Amsterdam. I have family in Holland. It's a new place I love. I've gone many, many times and my daughter's finally old enough to take her. So it's great. So literally about 360 days out, I immediately booked a flight and I specifically wanted business class because I'm fancy like that.

wanted business class because I'm fancy like that. Well, it's like... Right? So I booked it right away and I booked it fully flexible and it cost me 160,000 arrow plan points. And to be perfectly honest, that is a lot. Dynamic pricing is crazy. There's three of us and this is one way I'm talking about here. So that's almost a million points, right?

One way. But because I've been accumulating these points nonstop, fair disclosure, because I read about credit cards, I signed up for a lot of credit cards, more than the average person. It's like in between the two of us head, I always knew I had this one flight book. So guaranteed we're getting there. But I also know Air Canada has a lot of partners. Swiss Air, TAP Portugal. So there's different ways I could potentially get to Amsterdam with a stopover. And this is relevant because with partner airlines, it would only cost me 75 to 90,000 points. So I could potentially save 70,000 points per person if I kept an eye out for things.

And guess what? I was paying attention. I saw Swiss Air release some business class seats. I literally booked the flights. And I didn't even consult my wife because it's one of those things who's like, book now, think later. Save 270,000 points. I told my wife, guess what? We're going to Switzerland.

We're still going to Amsterdam, but we're going to Switzerland first. It saves 270,000 points. So again, it's just one of those things where it can be valuable. But understandably, Dave, I'm talking about some really fancy flights, but here's a more common solution for just a regular person who wants to go to Europe. From Toronto to say London, and just a regular economy fare, it's 40,000 points one way. So 80,000 points return is actually not very difficult to earn. You know, one or two credit cards. So this is what I mean. If you collect the points, you can easily travel, stretch out your dollars and save money.

You know, when I listen to you, it's clear to me that there's no one best credit card. There's a credit card that may be best for one person, but not for another based on their goals, based on where they shop and so on and so forth. How does the average listener to this podcast figure out what credit card should I be emphasizing? Which one matches up to me best? Is there again, a grid type thing where they can go through and answer a few questions and then be tipped off to this may be your best card? Yeah. So I'll say this, unfortunately, almost every single credit card comparison tool out there is not very good. They're all... I'll develop a good one.

The Globe and Mail is a good one in the sense that it's unbiased and uses strictly data, but it does not factor in where do you want to travel? This is exactly what we're talking about. What points will get you there? It's strictly based on how much you're spending. And it's a good guide, but it's not like a definite ranking. Like you said, it's all for each individual person. But a lot of other websites, especially those websites where it's clear that they're making

money off of affiliates, they are biased in one way or another. Some of them are absolutely crazy. They'll say, oh, we use thousands of data points to come up with this ranking. And it's like, that is complete crap. Like, come on, guys. Like, you did not use a thousand data points. Like, what? Like, really?

Like a thousand data points to come up with this definite ranking? And yet, by coincidence, the number one card is the one that's giving you the biggest payout this month? Like, I know that from the back end, right? But, again, it really ties back to what I was just telling people. Think about where you want to go, what points will get you there, and then which credit card will earn you those points. And once you actually start breaking down those things, it actually narrows down things very, very quickly, right? So I want to go to Asia, Air Canada will get me there, I'm going to collect Aeroplan points, which Aeroplan credit card should I get? It depends on my spending and what the current welcome bonuses are. So at any given

time, if there's a really rich offer, that should sway your decision making because if that's an easy way to earn 50,000 points, then of course, get that card. That said, every single program has its own rules. Generally speaking, every single credit card gives you the bonus once per lifetime. So you can't sign up for five of the same card and expect the bonus. So as long as you play within the rules, it's really easy. But again, if there's two people in your family, like two parents, and you're each getting, say, two credit cards a year, which is pretty reasonable, right? Like it's not crazy. You could easily earn 150 to 200,000 points without much effort, just like that. And that pays for two flights to Europe. With this signup bonus you were talking about, are there any rules where

you have to spend a certain amount for it to vest, for example, or you, it's given this once a lifetime to use your sentence and you get to keep it no matter what? Oh my goodness, Dave. Now you have to spend so much money. Back in the day, we're talking about this earlier in the podcast, how it was a wild, wild west. You could just line up and they would just literally give you 50,000 points. It was like, sign me up for everything. And then it was also reasonable. It's like, oh, you only spend $1,000 and I get 50,000 points. I can do that. Like, like in two minutes right now with all my daughter's classes. Right.

But now they've gotten smarter. A lot of them are tiered bonuses. You get like 10,000 points when you apply for the card, you get another 15,000 points when you spend $6,000 and another 15,000 points on your anniversary. So all in, you've only made like 40,000 points, but you got to pay the annual fee twice. You got to spend $6,000. But a lot of other credit cards are like, you know, spend $1,000 a month, you get X amount of points.

And to be fair, some of them are actually fair, right? Like to me, it's like, listen, if you want me to spend $1,000 a month and you're going to give me a good welcome bonus, say 5,000 points each month for 12 months. So that's 60,000 points. Yes, I'm spending $ spend $1,000 a month and you're going to give me a good welcome bonus, say 5,000 points each month for 12 months. So that's 60,000 points. Yes, I'm spending $12,000, but that is something I can recently do as a regular consumer. And I don't need to stick around for an anniversary bonus. To me, that is a good deal. I just really hate it. And this is a real case scenario. It's like one credit card was like, you'll get like 150 000 points right

but the annual fee was like 600 and then 150 000 points were actually only worth 750 and you had to spend something like 45 000 and it was absolutely ridiculous but this one bank and if people researchers i'm not going to say it out loud, because I might do business with them in a few. But it's like, their whole mentality is, oh, by by telling people they have to spend more, they're going to spend more, they're gonna get these points. And we talked about this off camera. And I want to talk about it right now really quickly. It's very obvious when a loyalty program is run by a banker. And when it's run by someone who is really loyal and understand loyalty, because the general public understands that loyalty isn't about giving things away. You know, I give you something, you give me something in return, and it's fair, we're all happy.

There will be devaluations now and then. But if you give me something that benefits me in return, I can look the other way. But when you've got a loyalty program that just encourages you to spend, spend, spend, and you get nothing in return, that is run by a banker, and they only care about profit, and they're just using you, and that's where I'd be like, abandon that program as soon as you...

Do you worry in general as you talk about that with credit cards? I'm very reserved about credit cards because I feel that people don't have any kind of inkling of pain when they use a credit card, and they kind of inkling of pain when they use a credit card and they just tap as opposed to when they take cash out of their wallet. And yes, you don't see that much anymore in IMO fashion, but people are overspending on credit cards.

There's no doubt about that. You can see it with all the spending summaries I get. People freely admit that. We can see it in the consumer debt figures that as we try to optimize for points, it makes us careless on the discipline we need to decide what we actually should be buying in the first place. It is 100% a game and I'm 100% guilty of that, right? Like, sure, of course, using cash, seeing it come out of your wallet, seeing the last $5 bill, you're like, oh yeah, maybe I shouldn't buy that drink. Then again, $5 doesn't even buy me a drink these days, right? No, water.

Yeah, yeah. Not even a water. But yeah, it's true. Credit card spending is on the rise. You know, Canadians have record debt levels. I think the last survey I saw was like trillions in debt. It's absolutely crazy how much debt we have. And yes, people will spend more with credit cards. So you really need to be disciplined in this game. So let's be clear. If you're in debt or you're carrying a balance whatsoever, loyalty points are not worth it. It's just the math. That's not math. You're paying 20% interest to earn 2% in points. Like you're not coming out

ahead. It's crazy what people will do, but you know, sometimes like, you know, we can talk about these so much. And I think people who are listening to us, they want to get better or they already understand. And they just like listening to this stuff. And I don't want to single people out, but sometimes people just do it themselves. And there's nothing you can say or do to help them unless they want to make a change. You know, I read about travel. I saw a travel article where the writer basically said she cashed out her RRSP to take this once in a lifetime trip with their girlfriends.

I was like, that is the craziest thing I've ever heard in my life. But there was nothing you or I could have ever have said that would have changed your mind. Right. Right. So I, I think it is fun to talk about loyalty points, but even like we're seeing earlier, explain to people that if you don't use loyalty points, you're losing money. Right.

Right. But yeah, we definitely got to acknowledge that spending is up. I'm very guilty of it. Like too often, I'm not looking at the dollar amount. I'm looking at how many loyalty points I'm earning. Which credit card do I... I literally have stickers on my credit cards telling me where to use them. There, you're everything I'm against.

And you know what? But it's different mentalities. And to be fair, like I said, I write about credit cards. This is my job. Yeah, it's your research. And you have to know it inside out. And you're also doing well. And your wife's doing well.

And you can afford it. I mean, I know you well enough to guess you're not carrying credit card balances at the end of the month. Yeah, that's exactly it, right? Yeah, but people are. And interestingly, I have a lot of people come to me and say, Dave, I think you're not carrying credit card balances at the end of the month. Yeah, that's exactly it, right? Yeah, but people are. And, you know, interestingly, I have a lot of people come to me and say, Dave, I think you're wrong on some of the credit card criticisms you've laid out because I do pay my balance off at the end of every month.

I'm therefore not paying the 20 and 22 and 24% interest rates and I'm getting the loyalty points. But my counter argument is, even if that's the case, you're still spending more on the credit card than you should be. I'm not going to put that with you on that one. Yeah, you're sabotaging your savings on the far end. I see it over and over and over again. The other thing that I find fascinating seeing people's personal financial summaries as much as I do is how many fairly high income Canadians are carrying big credit card balances.

That part would surprise most people. are carrying big credit card balances. That part would surprise most people. We naturally listen to this and go, yeah, Dave, times are top, costs are high, food costs are crazy, rent costs are crazy. People are just trying to survive. And sometimes they end up creating a credit card balance they can't pay off.

I understand all that, but I see as much of it with families making 250, 300, 350,000 a year, they're still carrying a credit card balance. It's nutty. And for some reason, people rationalize it and justify it. They make the minimum payment each month. They forget they're paying 20% interest. It drives me crazy. I even see it when people have cash in the bank, earning 1%, 2%, and 3%, and yet they're paying the credit card company 22%, 23%. In fact, in Canada,

that's a very common mistake. And to me, that really comes down to financial education, right? And obviously, a little bit of it comes down to, you know, keeping up with Joneses, right? People say it's like, you know, I recently became a landlord, you know, I moved to Houston, we rented out a condo and similar thing. It's like seeing some of these applications and I'm not trying to single people out, but it's like, you know, you just look at their financial picture. It's like, oh yeah, you're single income their financial picture. It's like, oh, yeah, you're single income. But like, why are you guys driving a Lexus? Like you got a credit card debt.

But it's like my realtor was like, yeah, it's the culture. If they don't drive a Lexus in that culture, they're seen as like not doing well. But it's like, yeah, but clearly they're not doing well. Exactly. Yeah. Not doing well. And, you know, Rob Carrick brought this up right at the top of the podcast is how he just shakes his head at what people are willing to spend on cars relative to their income, relative to their financial position. I've been saying the same thing for years. And funnily enough, I actually think it's gotten worse in the last five to 10 years based on the summaries I'm seeing. A lot of younger people, exactly to your point, Barry, they want to look much wealthier than they are. And the car is one of the best symbols they can grab a hold of. And they look at it in the monthly payments, but you're often seeing it times two. Both spouses are spending a tremendous amount of

cars. You add an increased cost on insurance, parking, gas, and everything else. The total expenditures on cars for some families relative to their incomes are wacky by any common sense measure. But you made a great point earlier about that woman who took the trip. No matter what I say to a lot of these people, including sitting across from their kitchen table, I can't convince them to change their ways. I can get them to make other changes, but they love their fancy cars. They do. Right.

And to me, when we go back to all the points, and I certainly understand people are like, listen, I'm like you, Barry. I pay off all my debt all the time. I never carry a balance. I'm all into points. And to me, there is good value. But you're not wrong. Like I said, I really admit that I definitely spend more on my credit card now. But I also wonder if it's part of an age thing. So without a debt in my 20s, I was super, super frugal, right? Tried to save every penny, didn't really use credit cards at all. In my 30s, you know, I started to make better income. I was just kind of much better. Started spending a little bit more, very natural thing. And now, you know, we're in our early 40s. We've got established home. Our net worth is significantly higher than obviously when we're in our 20s. So I'm a little bit looser with my spending. And I think that's part of the mentality

too now, because, you know, my parents immigrated from Hong Kong and you'll laugh at this day. Maybe you've heard people, hopefully not with similar stories. My dad will not turn on the air conditioning unless like it's 40 degrees. And like, unless it's minus 30, he's not turning on the heat. And like, you know, now as a homeowner, it's like you do the math. It's like, yo, it's like $2 a day for heat. Like it's like a double ethic. It's actually not that expensive. But what's really funny is like I was saying, I have a daughter now when his granddaughter visits, the heat's on, the air con's on. But if it's just me coming, it's like, it's not on. You know where you sit. You know where you sit. That's exactly what it is. But what I'm getting at is it is a mentality.

But hey, even I've been trying to encourage my parents to spend more money. They're not going to go crazy on credit cards. I don't expect them to. They don't need you because when they want something, they just get me to book it. That's smart. I would too. I'm going to do that. In fact, I'm suggesting to all of our listeners to have you do all of their bookings going forward to match up to their goals. We won't do that, but I will help listeners definitely maximize their credit cards.

And sometimes it's something very, very basic. Like I get it. Like my dad has been with his bank since he immigrated to Canada. This is nearly 50 years ago, right? And then my dad is like all the time is like, oh, how do you have so many points? It's like, just because I have a different credit card. It's that simple. But this is a one funny story I love telling.

It's like, my mom kind of knows what I mean. Like, my parents are old Chinese people. They don't really understand, like, personal finance. Like, they're totally like you in the sense that cash, cash, cash, cash, pay off everything. Right, right? But they've gotten better. They've seen how I'm doing. Like, my dad doesn't understand.

My dad doesn't think I have a job because I don't go to an office 9 to 5. And my mom's like, yo, like he's on TV talking about money. I think he's doing fine. Right. Anyways, last year we, we went to Hong Kong. Uh, my parents hadn't been back. This is where they they're from in a few years because of the pandemic. Uh, my parents are getting older. They've got health issues. And my mom's like, you know, it'd be really nice if you and your brother came back with us, come back to the village, see where your grandparents are buried one last time. And my mom was like, this is probably going to be the last trip we ever take together as a family. And we're like, okay, I go to my brother.

Let's make it work. This is the last trip. We're going to go all out. We'll, we'll, I'll book everything. We'll take business class flights there. We'll get fancy hotels because, you know, i was once in a lifetime 41 last year and the last time i had traveled with my parents like with my brother all together as a family i was 16 took 25 years for that's cool very cool right some things are worth spending on and this sounds

like one of them yeah so all in dave it cost me uh for the flights it was was 400,000 points per person. And then the hotels were another 300,000 points. So you can kind of do it. You're all in. We're close to 2 million points I burned. But here's the story. And did you pay for your parents as well?

I paid for everyone. You're a fine young man. No, you are. That's fantastic. But this is the story I love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you are. That's fantastic. But this is the story I love. We landed in Hong Kong. My parents went earlier. Me and my brother came later. We get to a restaurant.

My cousin's there. And he decides to pay the bill because he wants to put it on his credit card. And my aunt is there. She had come from England and go, yeah, Adrian's going to pay because he wants the points.

And then my dad looks over at me and goes, do you have a credit card that earns points? Like so confused. And my mom's like, without saying it, it's like, how do you think we got here? I think business class. And we literally just came from a fancy hotel. It's like, do you think you paid cash?

I think your dad loves you very much, but he's not following your career too closely. And I don't know if the love is even there. He's just like, he's just said it in his old ways. But even then, my mom was like, this is going to be a once in a lifetime opportunity. We're never going to do it again. We're flying home from Japan day, man. Like we're in the business pod.

It's like three in the morning. Right. We just happen to be awake. I'm just eating. My mom's like reclined. She's like this. She's like, oh, Barry, this was so nice. We could do it again.

So just like mommy told me like everything was the last time. So we burnt two million. I don't just have two million points. I only had it because we hadn't traveled during the pandemic. So it was banked up and I burned almost all my reserves. I think if you were a good son, you'd do it again in five years.

You know what? If they're healthy enough, I do actually encourage it. And now I actually prefer to just like, I keep saying to my mom, it's like, you want anything you want? You just tell me. I'll book it for you. I'll book it for you. I don't care. Right?

Like we don't have to go together. But she's still old school. Sometimes she just, she feels weird sitting in business class because she knows it's a luxury. She'd rather just sit in an economy with her friends. She's going to Taiwan at the end of this month. And she's like, no, I'd rather just sit with my friends in an economy. I'm like, I'll pay for business.

But I get it. She doesn't want to look weird sitting in business while her friends are at the back of the plane, right? See, I think there's no greater joy in life than sitting in business when your friends are back in economy. You know what? That is the greatest joy in life. And then you go back and visit them and give them peanuts.

I love all that stuff. My wife complains to me. She goes, you know, it's your fault that our daughter is used to fancy hotels and business class flights. And I responded back with like, well, if you'd like, I can book you and her in economy and I'll stay in business. So the decision is yours. And she's like, no, business is fine. I'm a little worried about your marriage right now. I think we're going to have to get your wife on the next episode. Hey, this is an interesting question. I just watch people when we're at restaurants, et cetera, a lot of business meals when I travel and speak. I could be wrong here.

And if I am, don't be afraid to be blunt. Am I seeing the American Express card more now than I was among business users, among higher income people five and 10 years ago? I seem to be running into that card a tremendous amount. American Express has just done a phenomenal job with their cards, especially even in Canada, right? Simply put, they have the best cards on the market and they have the best rewards program. We were talking earlier how you can transfer your points to Aeroplan and Marriott Bonvoy. Like, they're the only one that allows you to do that. And Air Canada is the number one airline in Canada.

Marriott Bonvoy is the largest hotel chain in the world. Um, and on top of that, they've just have really good cards. The American Express Cobalt card, when it came out like six, seven years ago, it was, it was offering five times the points on groceries. And that was unheard of at the time. People were like, oh my goodness, I can't believe they're offering five times the points. And they set that standard. A few other card companies, including Scotiabank, have copied.

And I don't want to say copied because the person who was running Scotiabank at the time came from American Express and straight out news like, no, this is just a really good card that makes sense for consumers and for the line of business so yeah our american express cards better out there yeah they have a lot of perks that aren't necessarily directly tied to like say the earn rate they give you most every single card holder has front of the line access so you american express partners with a lot of venues and artists so you can pre-buy tickets. Right. That's cool. Right. Theater, concerts, even restaurants, right? They also have other great benefits for travelers like hotel status. They have their own lounge collection. They also have something called the fine hotels and resorts where basically about the same price

or maybe $50 more if you booked it, let's say Expedia or Direct, but you get a free room upgrade, early check-in, late checkout, meal credits. So again, they're just giving so much back to consumers. And part of that was because back in the day, obviously American Express wasn't accepted by as many merchants. That's right. And that is still the case. But overall, if you're giving me more overall benefits, then obviously it's worth it.

But of course, if you're shopping at a place that doesn't take American Express, most of your places, then yeah, don't get an American Express. What percentage of conventional places do accept American Express? Like if you're looking at high-end restaurants, I'm sure it's high. But if you're looking at grocery stores, what percentage accept American Express? I think it's still pretty high overall. Like you said, almost every single restaurant will take American Express. But in the's still pretty high overall. Like you said, almost every single restaurant will take American Express. But in the end, a lot of the grocery stores have their own partnership.

So with Love Laws, because they're pushing their own MasterCard, they don't accept American Express. But at certain stores, they will accept Visa. So it's kind of a one-sided thing. Same thing at Costco. They have a specific partnership with CIBC with their MasterCard. So they only

accept MasterCard. So yeah, if you mainly shop at say, Loblaws, grocery stores and Costco, then American Express may not benefit you, right? But to me, a lot of programs like you know, I live in Toronto, City of Toronto, a lot of organizations, they take American Express, obviously, every single gas station takes it. But again, it comes down to what we were saying earlier. Think about your shopping habits and where you spend, and that will kind of help you determine what credit card makes sense for you. Again, I'm worried about all of this. As you know, I'm always nervous about credit cards and people overusing them and driving

up balances. You brought up a very interesting point there when you talked about non-point benefits. I don't think that gets enough attention. You made some great examples with American Express with front-of-line access to concert tickets, et cetera, the lounges at a lot of the airports, which people covet. You know, it's funny. I don't go in the lounges. Isn't that weird? And that tells me so many things about you. I know I'm a man of the people. You are a man of the people, but it also, to me, it's like, you got to start charging your clients more, get you those business classes. I fly all business class because I am flying to speak.

But then you can lounge at the default. The lounge is more crowded now and more of a pain than the normal spot where you go sit at the gate. You know what? I will disagree with you, especially on certain times of the day, but I don't want to sound like snob here, but once you've sat in a lounge, I don't want to sit with the common people anymore.

You know what? You are a snob, and I am a man of the people. This is very clear, the difference between us. But when you look at the other non-point benefits, the two that jump to mind, of course, are return privileges in some cases and travel insurance. Can you talk a little bit about the importance of those? Do all cards give them to you or is that a point of difference between cards? Most cards have extended warranty, which is one of my favorite things. You pay for the full purchase on that card, extended warranty, which is one of my favorite things. You know, you pay for the full purchase on that card, extended warranty, usually the doubles the warranty

up to one edition of where manufacturer's warranty. And I've actually been able to take advantage of that a few times. Maybe monitor broke my wireless earphones broke. I was able to get those back and it was all legit. So it was no big deal. Travel insurance, generally speaking, comes from most high-end credit cards, like travel credit cards, any travel points credit card. And they're very clear. So the good thing is if you have travel medical insurance, you get it no matter what. You don't have to make a purchase. That is actually a law in Canada, where if your credit card includes travel medical insurance, you're covered, which is really good. Of course, there are insurance, you're covered, right? Which is really good. Of course, there are restrictions, how many days, age, pre-existing conditions.

Extended insurance, travel insurance, where it gets a bit complicated, like delayed luggage, trip cancellation. There's certain timeframes, like four hours, or to cancel a trip. You can't cancel for any reason. It has to be something specific, like you got laid off or there's a health issue, right? And quite often, you also need to look at the rules. You have to pay 100% for the purchase of your flight for the insurance supply. But what if you use points to pay for that flight for it to qualify for, let's say, RBC Avion. Let's say you've claimed half of the flight on points on RBC. If you pay with that RBC Avion points

for the rest of that purchase, then you're completely good. So that's where the double-ed comes into detail. But I do want to talk about another benefit, non-points benefit that's really relevant and it really ties back to what you were saying about people overspending these days. You know, one of the best credit cards these days

is just a balance transfer credit card, right? Where you sign up for a new credit card, you can transfer the balance to a new credit card with a low interest rate. And the theory is that if you could pay off that entire balance in that time, not using it for additional purchases, you're essentially lowering your interest rate to like anywhere from zero to 4%. Of course, the fact is that if you don't pay off the balance, you still got a debt. And also in theory, you've got access to more credit, right? So it does require a lot of discipline. And again, it ties back to your goals.

So if you've got debt or you want to reduce debt, you should not be looking at points cards, right? But kind of like you were also saying about gamifying, there are some companies now that say, hey, do the balance transfer and we'll give you points, right? So they're just trying to lock them in. And it's like, to me, it's like, do you more harm than good sometimes? Or it's kind of like, I am that points guy. And I do want to maximize those points by 100% see it sometimes, but like, no, you're just trying to lure people in. And this is not a good product, especially in Canada, we've got a lot of fintech companies, they always come into the game. And I'm sure you've probably saw this when you're working at Dragon Center, people have approached you separately. Like, we're going to disrupt the market. We're going to offer this product that's really good. Canadians have been missing it. The

banks don't give Canadians anything. And then like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It sounds like a great product. And eventually the investors are like, guys, you got to start making money. You can't like, and that's fair, right? Yeah. And then all of a sudden these fintech companies, okay, we're going to launch a new product, loans. It's, you know what I mean? So it's just like you lured them in

and then you're basically catching them in that same trap that you claimed that you were trying to get them out of when you started. It's absolutely true what you say there. That the way you laid out kind of the way the history of these fintech companies has gone. It's let's compete with the banks. Let's compete with the banks. Let's offer new products. Let's offer better deals. Then six months in, it's let's do exactly what the banks do.

And then six months later, sometimes let's sell to the banks. And we've now seen this pattern in North America and Europe play out less so lately than it was a few years ago. But no, your points are bang on. Do you use your debit card at all? Or is someone like you so obsessed by points and you know you're going to pay it off, you've got the discipline to do that, you're always using your credit card?

So you know what? My mentality has changed over the years. Almost every small business, I will use debit. Just because I understand that if I were you... You don't want to cost them money. Exactly. And especially if it's businesses that I want to see grow and I don't want to slam big businesses but there was a recent Netflix documentary talking about just consumerism and overall and I'm trying to reduce my own personal

impact and I know it's very difficult because we've just been ingrained into that system right it's easy to order online and sometimes it's like it's way cheaper to order online versus the local store but if i can help in small ways i will try and admittedly i don't know if i'm making any impact whatsoever and maybe this is just me getting old and realizing like we just don't need so much stuff it's like you know my daughter's seven it's great seeing her grow up. But I don't remember getting all these gifts when I was a kid. Right. And like, she's still got like, she's she turned seven this year. She still has gifts.

She hasn't opened when she was three. But it's funny, Dave, because a few things that I used to swear off, I would tell people is like, cancel all your subscriptions. You've got too many. You're spending too much money. But now when my wife was asking me, like, what do you want for Christmas? I actually thought like, you know what? A subscription would actually be good for a year because I don't want something physical that's just going to take up space.

But like a subscription that I'm going to use even for a year. So you'll laugh at this. Like I told my wife, get me, I want a Marvel comics subscription. That's cool. Yeah. It was like on sale for black Friday. It was 45 us, but it gives me access to the entire catalog.

So it's like, I love that. Yeah. It's like, you know, I'm reading these old comics from the sixties. It's really funny how bad some of the writing was back then, but it's also the same time.

It was something I remember enjoying reading when I was a teenager and I'm enjoying it again now. So it's like, Oh yeah, it's, it's really nice to have that then like a chess set that i'm just not going to play with you know this is one of the big messages i've always delivered is that i'm very anti-stuff yeah and again not just for environmental reasons or anything else i think it

weighs people down and it becomes almost a burden and a clutter and an annoyance and i think you're best to emphasize relationships and experiences obviously and the And I think you're best to emphasize relationships and experiences, obviously, and the kinds of things you're doing at the Marvel Comics. In fact, people who handle their money well tend to have inexpensive hobbies they're passionate about because they put a lot of time into those hobbies without giving up a lot of money. So the comic book can be a good idea. You mentioned that the writing of the 60s.

Can you believe how, when you look back at the 60s and 70s, how sexist everyday writing was? It's crazy. Terrible. It's absolutely crazy. Even being politically correct, it's like, I don't know how familiar with the Marvel comics and the characters, but some of the stuff Wolverine

was saying is like, oh, that would not fly. Not flying out, nor should it. No, no, no. But even like, to be fair, like I said, I used to be a former news producer director. Even some of the stuff that was said in the news 10 years ago would not be what you get these days. But, you know, you were talking about experiences, and this really ties back to loyalty points.

The nice thing about loyalty points is it allows me to take experiences, subsidize experiences. Like, I obviously still need to budget for my vacations, but it allows me to stretch my travel budget a lot further. I agree. And, I mean, look at the experience with your parents budget a lot further. I agree. And I mean, look at the experience with your parents. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a once in a lifetime. Yeah, it allows you to other things. So if I've got a ton of loyalty points,

and you can donate loyalty points, which is really lovely, right? So, you know, because I'm rich in the Aeroplan points, I'd be fortunate to donate to some programs like Miles for Migrants, right? Which basically they take yourane points, I'd be fortunate to donate to some programs like Miles for Migrants, right? Which basically they take your loyalty points, they're partnering with some major airlines, and they're able to fly people who are in war zones out because of your points.

And that's like one way to make a real difference, right? Sometimes, you know, it's hard to tell which charities, how much money is actually going to the people. But when you kind of do the betting, right, you're like, oh, the points I'm giving is like, yeah, it could have got me a trip to Florida or whatever. But for me to say that, oh, I've been able to give these points and potentially it's gotten someone out of a war zone. It's very meaningful. I couldn't agree more. I remember when Canadian Airlines went away, you were very young.

I gave all my points with Canadian Airlines and it was hundreds of thousands of points to the Wish Foundation. And my family's still mad at me. This is how shallow and selfish my family is. They would rather have the points than the Wish Foundation. Horrible people, my family, horrible people. one more thing before I let you go. Fraud. Talk about what's happening out there with the fraud now. Is the consumer ever liable? Is there anything that the average person should be watching out for? Is this more or less covered in your costs and the interest rate and everything else? There's a few ways of looking at fraud. Obviously, a lot of the consumer standpoint, a lot of people are attempting fraud, right? And intentionally, unintentionally, we're talking about signup bonuses with credit cards. People will sign up for many, many credit cards. And to be fair, that was the game that was played. A lot of people were doing it because no one was enforcing it. But I would be more concerned about the fraud on your own points. The security

is very easy to be broken these days. PC Optimum has had issues for many years. I personally lost 500,000 points. I got them locked out. 500,000? Yeah. That's crazy. 500 bucks, right? There are always hackers because people are willing to take advantage of it or people think it's an innocent thing. It's like, oh, this website's basically offering me a cheap plan.

I'm going to book it because they're hacking people's accounts and stealing those points. So I recommend people like just be aware, have two factor authentication whenever you can. And unfortunately, the sad thing is a lot of these websites or programs that claim they have two factor authentication. It's not true to FAA. So your points are still able to be stolen. So you really got to be on top of things. And also, you got to make sure you kind of have some kind of spreadsheet that just tracks your points so you also just don't lose your points due to inactivity.

A lot of programs, 18 months, 24 months inactivity. So that's what I tell people. Just pay attention. Fraud is no longer just your identity or bank accounts. Your loyalty points have real value. The programs will say they have no monetary value, but they do have a real value. Interesting. Okay, well, listen, I never thought the wealthy barber would interview someone on how to use

a credit card more effectively. This is an odd match, but you've done a wonderful job. You're very well-spoken, interesting stories, and a lot of good tips. So I want to thank you very much for coming on the podcast. And hopefully you and I will see each other again soon. Hopefully it's not another 10 years. Yeah, I won't be here. Hopefully you will be.

All right. Be well, Barry. No problem. Anytime.