The Wealthy Barber Podcast - Robin Taub: How To Teach Your Kids About Money | The Wealthy Barber Podcast #2

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

Our guest this episode is Robin Taub—a financial educator focused on helping parents teach their kids to be responsible, independent and money-smart for life through her award winning book “The Wisest Investment” and public speaking engagements. In this episode we discuss all things parents should know when teaching their kids about money, from allowances, to piggy banks, to how much kids should save, and much more. You'll enjoy this discussion with Robin Taub. —---- The Wealthy Barber Podcast is Canada’s go-to source for approachable, entertaining, and free financial education. Hosted by none other than David Chilton—former Dragon on CBC’s ”Dragons’ Den” and the best-selling author of ”The Wealthy Barber” and ”The Wealthy Barber Returns”—this podcast is here to help Canadians manage their money better. Much better. Find all episodes and more Canadian personal finance content at https://thewealthybarber.com. —---- Show Notes: (00:00:00) Introduction (00:01:11) How Do You Teach Kids About Money? (00:07:38) Allowances (00:11:41) Robin's Book & Framework (00:15:52) Teaching Kids About Investing  (00:18:55) People Are Having Fewer Kids  (00:20:00) Young People More Affected by Inflation  (00:22:42) Piggy Banks  (00:24:04) Spending in the Digital Era  (00:26:01) "Cooling-Off" Periods (00:27:25) How Much Kids Should Save (00:28:59) Grandparents More Financially Involved Now  (00:31:58) Biggest Money Mistakes Parents Make (00:35:08) Money Stress is the Worst Stress (00:37:14) The Importance of Sharing (00:41:09) Dave & Robin's Kids  (00:45:01) Other Resources for Parents (00:47:08) Conclusion

Hey, it's Dave Chilton, The Wealthy Barber and former Dragon on Dragon's Den. Welcome to The Wealthy Barber Podcast, where we'll be hosting some of the top minds in the world of personal finance. Yes, that's to balance me out. The podcast is about making the subject not just easy to understand, but dare I say, even fun, honest. Whether you're trying to fund your retirement, figure out how to build a down payment, save for your kids' education, manage debts, whatever, we'll be here to help you do it. Over the past 35 years, I've assisted millions of Canadians in getting their financial lives in order through books and speeches, and now I'm bringing that same approachable, no-nonsense advice to your favorite podcast platforms. Again, complimented by the top thinkers and

communicators in this space. Before we jump in, a quick but important note. Nothing we discuss here should be taken as investment advice. We don't know you and your personal financial situation, so we're not here to tell you we're specifically to put your investment dollars. We're here to educate, get you thinking, and we hope entertain. But please do your own research and or consult with your financial advisor before taking any action. Hey, it's Dave Chilton, The Wealthy Barber. I'm here for podcast number two. We have a fantastic guest, Robin Tobe. I've known Robin for years. She's brilliant. CA, CPA, worked at KPMG, Citibank, and Derivatives. And now she's focused on financial literacy. And a big part of where she spends her time is helping parents to help

their kids to understand the world of money so that when they go into adulthood, they're well prepared. Let's be honest. That's something as a society we haven't done particularly well. In fact, until recently, our education system didn't even try to do it well. So Robin is fantastic. She's an outstanding communicator. And let's get going. Here's my first question. You know, I think normally when you're interviewed, they talk about the framework you've come up with. We'll get to that for certain. But how do you first teach kids what is money? Okay, so first of all, Dave, thank you again so much for having me as your second guest. I feel a little bit like Barack Obama going after Michelle Obama, going after Preet. But I'm so delighted to be here.

Okay, so to answer your first question, how do you even explain what money is, especially in this digital world that we're in? I think with young children, when you're introducing it, it still really does begin with cash. So in my book, I explain about how money evolved, how initially we would barter for things. And then we developed currencies. At one point, currencies were giant rocks or stones and eventually evolved into paper and coins. So just to explain that it's a way to make exchanging for goods and services easier. And again, little kids, they need concrete examples of this. So I think starting with cash, showing them bills and coins and showing them how you use it.

I know we don't use it very much anymore, but when you do use cash, just explaining what the different amounts are for, playing games with coins, counting games, making change, that kind of thing. Robin, you'll love it, but I still use cash a lot. I'm one of the few people who- Yeah, it, but I still use cash a lot. I'm one of the few people who, yeah, I really do. I use cash a lot. I think that we've learned how much that a pain doesn't register when you use a credit card. You tend to be more careless, more aggressive with your

spending. I've always used a lot of cash when it runs out of my wallet. I'm in trouble type thing. So I go that route, but I meant not just explaining money and the concept of a medium exchange, et cetera, but how do you get money? So do you talk to the kids about how you get money initially because you've traded something for it, your work, your value add, your input. Do you talk to them a lot about that? And at what age do you start tackling tougher subjects like that? Right. So even young kids are going to earn money if they get gifts for their birthdays or holidays or visits from the Tooth Fairy, or even if they set up like a little lemonade stand, they're going to experience what it takes to earn money. of childhood, as they become preteens, then they may start doing real work like babysitting, where they get to earn actual money from someone other than their parents. And then if they become teenagers, they can get real jobs where they have a boss and they get a paycheck and on and on it goes. So that experience of doing something in exchange for money is so critical because kids will always find it easier to spend your money and much harder to spend their own.

Even if you've given it to them as an allowance or even if they've received it as a gift, they're still, as you just described, parting with it. And there's that visceral pain of loss. But if they've worked hard for it, it becomes even harder to make those choices about, do I save it, spend it, share it, or invest it? Yeah, that all makes a lot of sense. I find that a lot of the kids I meet when they're 18 to 22 and they're handling their money well, their parents have done a very good job of teaching them that money is finite and that you don't have unlimited supply and every decision you make in essence is a trade-off. If you buy X, you can't buy Y.

If you buy X, you can't save for the future at least as much as you could have, etc. When do you start preaching those types of lessons? And do you do it so early you're basing it more on the parents' income? So you've got little Johnny at the store and he says to mom, I want that. And she says, we can't buy that. We have a limited resource here. Does she start talking through infusion about those types of things. Yes. Keeping in mind that anytime you talk to your kids about money, you want to make sure the

information that you share is age appropriate. So you're talking about making trade-offs with a finite resource. And often I tell parents to use their values as the framework to help them make those trade-offs and to prioritize. So thinking about what's most important to you in life and the things that are meaningful and that you're willing to take a stand for and to use those and keep your values top of mind when you're making these decisions. When you're with a young child at the grocery store and they want certain treats, but you have a shopping list that's focusing more on the needs right now,

and especially with food prices up like 25% since pre-COVID times, that's a really good opportunity to explain that you have a job, you bring a certain amount of money into the house, and it has to cover everything, the needs and the wants for the whole family and not just them. So a good example would be buying like the meat and the

proteins and the vegetables and stuff that you need rather than like ice cream or cookies. And as your kids get older, they can relate to more sophisticated examples of needs versus wants. When you talked about buying meat and protein over ice cream and cookies, my father just turned off the podcast. We just lost my father as a viewer. All right. He has a different set of values and priorities on the food chain front than you do. Clearly, clearly. I think you said all that wonderfully well. And I think that's such a key message to kids is that we bring in so much to the family. It has to cover all the expenses, not just for you, but for everybody. We have to make decisions.

It's all about making decisions. It's all about the trade-offs and all of the costs associated with that, etc. So you're doing that at a relatively young age. They start earning an income. Let's jump right to, of course, one of the hottest subjects in your field, allowances. Do you believe in allowances? And do you believe there has to be work associated with getting the money? What's your thinking there? I do believe in allowances

as a teaching tool. Again, as I said, kids will think a lot harder about spending their own money than they do when they're spending yours. And that's true with an allowance as well, because they have accountability over it and responsibility over it, especially as they get a bit older. So I think it does give them an opportunity to learn how to save and spend and share and invest. And a lot of families do feel like it should be tied to chores or doing something for it, because that's how it works in the real world. But other families want their kids to do those things out of a sense of family responsibility. And I understand that too.

So it's one of those personal finance things where there's like no right answer. You really have to do what feels right for your family, what's within your means and you know, what aligns with your values. But I think if these, this is probably money your kids are going to be spending anyway. use. But I think if these, this is probably money your kids are going to be spending anyway. And if you don't give them some opportunity to make the decisions and make mistakes and learn from them when the stakes are low, and that can be difficult to teach those lessons as they get older, because you do want them to fail a bit. You do want them to make mistakes with money, to blow it, to not be able to go out with their friends because

they've already spent their money and not rescue them. And if they don't have any of their own money and you're always just doing it, giving them money when they ask for it or letting them use your cards, it's just, they're just not going to learn. Love all that. And you're right. It comes back to choices again. Now, I laughed.

I listened to you in another interview and you talked about how you, the ultimate expert, literally the most famous voice in this area, forgot to give her kids their allowance on several occasions. And I like that because basically you taught your kids, trust no one. You can't even trust your mom for heaven's sakes. That's a good, valuable lesson that you're bringing to them. I think the lesson for that too, is that everyone makes mistakes, including me. Yeah. I'm a financial professional. I being in this world, my, you know, as, is that everyone makes mistakes, including me. Yeah, I'm a financial professional. I've been in this world as an accountant and finance professional my whole life. And I even make mistakes.

I'm not perfect. And I think that prevents a lot of parents from tackling this because they feel like, how can I teach my kids if I'm not even good at this myself or if I made a lot of money mistakes? But you and your kids can learn together and you can share your mistakes because every mistake is an opportunity to learn. How do you determine the amount of the allowance? The amount of the allowance,

again, it's going to be what's within your means. I think inflation has really increased what kids need or want now for an allowance. I used to say the rule of thumb for a young child might be like a dollar per week per year of age. So a seven-year-old might get like $7 or $10 a week, something like that. So a 10-year-old gets $10 a week, but now with inflation affecting the cost of movies, the cost of snacks, the cost of everything, have you taken that up by 50 to

100% over the years? And now you're up to kind of $2 per year per week for young kids. I think that you can use a dollar to $2 per year per week for young kids as a rule of thumb. But again, it has to fit within your family's budget, your means, and the system has to align with your values about the chores and the rest of it. But as your kids get older, becoming preteens, they're becoming more independent, they're doing more things on their own with their friends, then the budget really has to be a little bit more based on their needs and wants. And, you know, a discussion has to happen about what are they responsible for most, you know, preteen, you're going to be paying for most of it through an allowance.

But as your kids become teenagers, some families expect their kids to be working and paying for most of their own expenses. So that's really important to have a conversation and drop like a really simple budget with your teen or preteen and just go over where do they spend their money in a typical week? How much are they responsible for and how much are you willing to supplement that with an allowance? I'm just going to hold up your book for a second. You've seen the cover before. Wonderful book, cover quote by me. I'm a big believer in this book. And we did not know each other at that time, did we? That was not a personal favor. No, I had taken your course on nonfiction book creation and marketing. And it was just, it's, you know, I advocate to authors all

the time that it is the best thing. I learned so much about it. And yes, we met through that process because you were generous enough to respond and answer some questions I had, especially when I was trying to come up with the title and subtitle and cover, which we know are so important. They are. And I want to give you credit because I had dropped out of giving testimonials at that point because we are sent a thousand to two thousand books a year. And I had said no, even to some close friends,

didn't know you, but I gave you the testimonial because I thought the book was wonderful. And we just aren't tackling this enough. And you speak in a very understandable fashion, but I really like the framework you used. I like the fact that you broke it down to the different age levels. You brought the framework,

and I'm going to let you describe in a moment, and then you kept it constant, but you upgraded what needed to be done with that framework as the kids got older and older. So walk us through the framework first. Okay. So the frame and the reason I developed this framework was because this topic can feel very overwhelming to parents. Like luckily, because I was a financial professional, I always felt comfortable talking about money with my kids. as a financial professional, I always felt comfortable talking about money with my kids. But for many parents and research backs this up, they just don't know how to go about it. They

don't know how to what to talk about with kids of different ages. They feel like they don't have the time or the knowledge. So I was like, if I can come up with a framework that will make this whole topic feel more accessible and approachable. So the framework is this. There are five pillars of money. Earn, save, spend, share, and invest. And then I've made four stages. And they were young kids, 5 to 8, preteens, 9 to 12, teenagers, 13 to 18, and emerging adults 19 and over. So each chapter, there's five chapters

in the book. The first chapter is for parents to help them get their own financial house in order so they can lead by example. After that, there are four distinct chapters for those four distinct age groups, and each chapter goes through those five pillars of money. I'll repeat them, earn, save, spend, share, and invest. And it provides specific topics and examples within each of those five pillars that are age appropriate. And that is the key is to ensure that you're sharing information at that stage that your kids are going to care about, that's going to be relevant to their life stage. I'm surprised somebody hadn't done it this way before, because I'd seen other books tackle this subject, but they wrote about it all kind of in a generic way that it was the same advice for the

17-year-old and the 7-year-old. And frankly, it didn't work. And I think the way you did it made so much more sense. And as somebody reads it with young kids and walks through the years reading the book and refreshing what you've said, it's fantastic. So I really enjoyed it. You used some humor. You've got some interesting quotes, interesting examples. Do you get a lot of feedback about what people have done, how they've applied it, the successes that they've had, et cetera? Yes. I've gotten such wonderful notes from readers and reviews on Amazon as well that just emphasize how they felt that the book helped them get this conversation started, but to continue to have it as their kids grew up. And that was the idea. I wanted to

create a foundation. Hopefully you start when your kids are young and you build on that foundation as they get older. Parents have told me they've opened youth accounts or investing accounts and trust for their kids or their kids have wanted to start a business or have paid more attention to their spending as a result. Then I wanted the book to like sit out on people's kitchen tables and it's something that they would refer to again and again and really get their money's worth. No, you've done a great job. Now you said emerging adults are 19 plus. And so I would be technically an emerging adult. I like that.

I like to think of myself that way. And I'm emerging. I'm telling you, I'm coming on. I really am. You know, when we have people listening to the podcast, I think one of the things that's kept parents away is they're very uncomfortable with the investment part of educating their kids. So here's some good news.

I have found over and over again that if you teach your kids about the other money aspects, how to earn a little bit, most importantly, how to save, they tend to have a vested interest in learning later in life how to invest. They read books like The Wealthy Barber. They read the other books. Your big job is to teach them again about the big picture concepts of money and saving. Would you agree with that? I would. And I think that at a younger age, it's a little trickier to get into like the technical aspects of investing.

For sure. I focus on products at the earlier stages, like a guaranteed investment certificate. I don't really get into the stock, stocks, bonds, asset allocation, that type of stuff until the emerging adults chapter because it's just a little more sophisticated. Some kids are going to get it in high school as teenagers. They might be interested in the markets and interested in investing at an early age.

But I think I'm trying to create the awareness that there are different choices you can make with your money. You have to live within really below your means in order to save and you have to save in order to have anything available to invest. And I think the cool thing is that one of the only great things that came out of COVID was more interest in young people in investing. People were stuck at home. They got interested in the markets. And I mean, I don't think meme stocks are necessarily the best way to teach kids about investing, but it got them interested. And I think that's always been a great way in for kids is to pick a company that they know and can relate to. A story I like to tell is my brother bought my daughter shares of

Disney when she was born as a gift. And it came with a framed stock certificate. And she used to get paper checks with like five cent dividends and the annual report with all the photos of all the characters. It was a great way for her to learn a little bit about investing. And as you say, it's so important to start that early because kids have time on their sides. They have decades ahead of them to take advantage of the power of compounding to grow their wealth. So it's encouraging to see more young people get into investing. And I hope it just continues to accelerate. I love the Disney story. And I really believe in that. I think later in life,

you want to be buying index funds and you want to be buying pooled capital to avoid, you know, too much risk and diversify. But I think when kids are young, buying stock in a company or two or three that they know well, they like, they use the products of, it's such a great learning experience. A&W is a good example. You know, you buy the publicly traded shares in A&W. When you go there, you realize that they're getting revenue from your visit and you start thinking about business in general and all of that is extremely positive. But I also agree with you. That's more for later in life, you know, 14 and up and you focused on a lot in the emerging adult category. This is a little bit of a strange question, but are you seeing the trend I am that people are having fewer and fewer kids,

not just the general trend we've seen downward for fertility rates, et cetera, having fewer and fewer kids, not just the general trend we've seen downward for fertility rates, et cetera, but we're seeing it with the inflation now and the housing costs are pushing people to think even more about, do I really want number three? Do I really want number four? In some cases, do I really want number two? I know. I like when I had Mike, I have two kids and there was lots of families that my kids went to school with, I had three and even four kids. I always used to joke around that I was like an underachiever. But now it feels like two is manageable. And even as my kids are now, you know, young adults, two still feels like a lot.

There's always a lot going on when you have children that, you know, the job never ends in a way. And when I speak to young people, many of them, they don't necessarily want to have any children. So for sure, smaller families and some are making the decision or they think they have decided that they don't want to have any kids. And I think, yes, a lot of it right now is about the cost of living. This young millennial Gen Z cohort is really struggling and they've had a hard time if you think about COVID and having to live through that. And now the financial ramifications long-term of COVID are like elevated interest rates and high prices lingering and inflation's down to 2%. But as you and Preet talked talked about that just means prices are going up less quickly it doesn't mean prices are falling and we're all living with

that so and especially things that young people spend their money on which is housing like rent and food and going out and doing stuff it's all so much more expensive and i know you guys talked about this too like we preach to save to save to pay yourself first but it's really tough when it's so hard to make ends meet it is I I can't believe all these selfish people are going to have no kids and therefore you're going to sell no books this is not appropriate okay this is not a lot of that yeah yeah this is not appropriate we will push those people to have kids at least one and I and I do think most people will continue to have kids, but they are having fewer. And I think it is stepping up.

And of course, the housing costs are playing such a huge role. You made an interesting point there that a lot of the things that young kids focus on most, people in their 20s, from housing to going out more, et cetera, those have risen at a greater than inflation rate pace in many instances. Look at rent in a lot of these areas. So as I rewrite The Wealthy Barber right now, and I'm working through the math for a lot of people in their twenties, it's tight. It's easy for us to stand back and be critical and say, you're not saving enough. It's tough because the needs have overwhelmed the budgets and they don't have enough

left for the savings and for the wants. Yes. I'm hearing this firsthand from my kids, from their friends, from Lauren, who works with me. I mean, especially in a city like Toronto, I'm finding that even when you make a good salary, you're still, it's still a struggle to find a place. And a lot of them are still living with roommates in order to make it work. But you get to a certain point in your life where you don't really want that lifestyle anymore. You want your own place. Some people are still working from home and they need a quiet place to work. So it's just, it's really, it's really difficult. And I don't know what the solution is for the housing shortage. Yeah, it's interesting. We made some changes last week, as you know, to the mortgage rules, et cetera.

The problem is that's going to help on the demand front. But really, the problem is more on the supply side. We don't have enough housing to deal with the demand we have. We need to get more houses up and the governments at all levels are looking into ways to do that, but the solutions won't come quickly. And gaining cooperation between a federal government, a municipal government, that's always been a very difficult task. All right, change up here. Going to something I love. You may roll your eyes and think it's too old-fashioned. I still love piggy banks for little kids. I still think they're a great way to teach.

They see the money growing. It's physical. Well, look, even at your age, you have a piggy bank. Like this? Yeah, you're a fan. Now, I notice that's one of the ones I like because it's got the four slots. Love those because it's teaching, again, your framework to some extent. Is that something you have? Is that a branded product you're holding in your

hand? I wish, I wish. I think it's sort of inspired the framework, but no, it's, it's from a company called money savvy generation. And I found out about it, I guess, when I first started doing this work and I used to give it as birthday gifts, it's available at stores and online. Like it's just, I wish I'd come up with this still for young kids, a great way to make those choices tangible because with young kids, you are probably still giving them some allowance in cash and then they can deposit the coins into the little slots

and see, you know, seeing it grow. So I know you're a cash advocate, so I can see why you like piggy banks. But I think, Dave, you got to face that we are mostly in a digital world. I know. I still have a BlackBerry. Okay. So this is who you're dealing with. All right. I'll be watching this whole podcast on my VHS later when Aiden's prepared the edited version. So yeah, I'm a little backward. I think the digital era, you know, it's positive and negative on the education front. There's so many more tools. There's great YouTube videos. There's the podcasts that we're doing right now. But the money leaving, the physical money makes it a little bit more difficult to teach kids when it's tangible,

when they can see it. That was easier in my mind. Do you agree? Completely. And I feel like we're talking about friction here. Like they've taken the friction out of spending. It is now so easy just to tap your phone, your card. Yeah, you don't even need your car with you. As long as you have a digital wallet, you're just using your phone or your watch to pay for things. And it doesn't feel like you're spending real money. So that is a problem, whereas saving is still hard. There's still more friction around it, although you can do things like set up an automatic transfer

to a savings or an investing account, and I really encourage people to do that. But, you know, it's a trade-off because on the one hand, now with the banks in Canada, they all have these mobile banking apps with built-in tracking tools that create budgets. And you can have a notification sent to you every time you use your debit or credit card. So you can build some of that friction and some of that awareness back in using these tools. But it's a little different when you're handing over cash.

For sure. In fact, remember the research out of the States on that? It was extreme. Like that research paper came out, the big one in the US about the pain that people feel when they use cash over using a credit card. It was bigger than even I thought it was going to be. And I think that's one of the dangers.

A lot of people come to me and they say, look, I pay my credit card off every month. I earn the points. It's all positive, but they don't realize they're more likely to have overspent using the credit card. Subconsciously, they're drawn to getting the points, but more importantly, they don't feel the pain of loss with the credit card they do with cash. And so they may be overspending. Now, a lot of people who are great at monitoring this and using spending summaries, they're fine, but lots of others

are falling victim to that. Interesting conversation I had on the beach this weekend. You can see I'm very tanned. I was on the beach all weekend, very tanned. And a fellow was talking to me about money and about kids. And one of the things they did was when their kids would save up enough money to buy whatever it is they wanted. So let's say they're buying some electronic device. They would take them to the store. They would pick the device out and they would say, we'll bring you back in 24 hours. And if you still want it, buy it with your money or buy it with your money and the money we're helping you with, whatever. In 60% of cases, his figure, not mine, the child did not buy it 24 hours later. I think that would hold for adults. I think if we all did that and delayed almost any

purchase 24 hours, we would go, you know what? I really don't need it. Or I'm not that excited about it anymore. And we move on. Do you teach things like those types of techniques? Yes, that's in the book too. And I call it like a cooling off period or a waiting period. Just sleep on it and ask yourself, do I really need this? Or would it just be nice to have? It's just a really good way to remind ourselves of the difference between needs and wants and just to bring back some of that friction, cool off a bit because, you know, it's just, it's so easy to let the bills rack up. Well, you and I would agree on one thing though, and that is that impulse purchases of books, you and I are fine with that. I'm all for that. If people are buying books and just doing that,

then go ahead, buy multiple copies. I have no problem with that. Going back to allowances, do you mandate or believe in a parent mandating how much of a child's allowance, how much of a child's gift money should be set aside for savings? Or do you leave that in their hands? I mean, a lot of the parents I've run into, I think have done this well. They've said it has to be 20, 25%. You're setting aside. They're trying to build that habit. They don't want to leave it to the child's discipline.

They're very young, obviously. What are your thoughts on that? Yes. Especially with younger kids, they need guidance. Like you're talking about paying yourself first, essentially. So setting some aside automatically every time you get money in. So 10%, 20%, 25%, like whatever the family feels is appropriate for them to save. And then the rest can go towards other things like spending on something that they really want or sharing or in the long run investing.

So, yes, I think as kids get older, they're going to want to make these decisions more on their own, using their own values. Let's say a teenager has thought about their own values or maybe use the values validator on my website or in the book to help figure out what's important to them. Like maybe it's security and they want to start building up like a little nest egg. Or maybe they want, they value adventure and they want to do some traveling before they go to university or start working. So it's going to be a little different for everyone. I agree with all of that. And by the way, your example is an interesting one because when I've helped young kids, travel does seem to be the thing that they most want to save for, which makes sense.

Get out and see the world, do those things before you go to university. It makes a lot of sense. I'm also seeing grandparents more involved now than ever. And in a way, that surprises me because people are having kids later kids later and therefore the grandparents logically are often a little bit older than they were in my generation and previous generations. But a lot of the grandparents are getting involved on the education front and on the money giving front. They're helping out the grandkids more than the parents are directly. A, are you seeing the same thing? And B, were they big users of your book? Did you have a lot of grandparents get the book as opposed to parents? I did. I even have a great little photo

on Instagram of a grandfather in BC that had bought a bunch of copies for all his kids and then sent me a Christmas picture. It was so great. So yes, I do find a lot of grandparents read the book, use the book, buy it for their kids. It's often one of the most gifted in its categories. So on the grandparent front, it's interesting. I actually have a funny story about this. So when my son, Justin, graduated from high school, we had like a little barbecue dinner. And unbeknownst to me, my mother gave him an envelope with cash. Justin was supposed to be looking for a job that summer, but basically spent the whole summer reading Game of Thrones. And I was always thinking, and even though I was bugging him, I was like, aren't you supposed to be working? Aren't you

supposed to be looking for a job? He's like always reading Game of Thrones. And I don't mean the first, like all the books and they're huge. And after a while, I realized that he was living off the money that my mom gave him and I know she meant well and it was you know she was being generous but it's interesting grandparents are motivated by like spoiling their grandkids and being generous and all that and sometimes that can undermine the lessons that as parents we're trying to teach like here's a great example of me making a mistake again. Like I'm this expert and my kid did not work that summer before university. So, you know, I think there has to be communication between the grandparents and the parents. But I also think

when everything's so expensive, if they're helping pay for things like education, and I see that one a lot. So university setting up RESP, sometimes even paying for private school And I see that one a lot. For sure. So universities setting up RESP, sometimes even paying for private school. I see that one a lot because that's a big value for a lot of families. And down payments. They're helping with down payments

more and more too. I was going to say that was my next example. Exactly. So now you're going to see it a lot or we're already seeing it with, yeah, with money for down payments. Now, is your son,

has he gone on to work or did he go on to school or is he just still at home reading i'm a little worried about him okay so he did he did go on to university he did a philosophy degree at queens and he now works as a live sound engineer but i can tell you he still reads those game of throne books in fact i'm using it to prop up my microphone. He rereads those books and he's proud of it. And he literally said to me, I don't regret that summer. You know, this is a sore spot. I think we should move on. This is clearly a sore spot and we don't want to get involved in any kind of family strife. What are the biggest mistakes you're seeing out

there? I mean, obviously one of the big ones is the conversations aren't held, period. But if conversations are held, is there an area you would see parents educating poorly, for example, or steering kids down the wrong path occasionally? Well, I think waiting too long to have the money talk or not having it at all because you feel like you're so busy is the biggest mistake I see. And I actually read a really interesting article that talked about teaching your kids about money is important, but it feels non-urgent because you can't see future them, or they seem to be doing okay right now. And, and their future selves where they're going to have to make all kinds of complicated financial decisions through different life stages just seem so far off and not realistic. Like

there's a present or recency bias there. So I always wonder, like, why aren't more parents taking this seriously? And I think it just feels so far off and, you know, not urgent, but important. Again, another struggle is that they just feel like they don't have the knowledge or the time. And that's why I really encourage parents to look for teachable moments, opportunities to build a money lesson into their daily lives. That deals with the lack of time or opportunity because we're always transacting with money. There's just every single day you're doing something with money, whether it's tapping with your phone and explaining to a young child what that actually means or talking to your kid about the difference between a credit card and a debit card. So there's

so many examples doing your taxes. Like I could go on and on. And if you're creative, you'll find them everywhere. I don't think parents are like intentionally steering their kids wrong. I think they want their kids to learn from their mistakes and avoid some of the consequences of bad money habits, like the stress that it causes. And, you know, research shows that money stress is the number one source of stress. All different demographics. It's higher than work stress or health stress or relationship stress. So it can cause physical health problems. It can cause mental health problems like stress and anxiety. So I think parents really want their kids to avoid those consequences, especially if they've experienced them.

So I don't think they're steering their kids wrong. I think they're just not talking about it. You know, you made so many great points there. My father, by the way, 92 now, he and I spoke about this last year. He never had the money talk with me and he never had the sex talk with me. And I brought that up to him. He said, it's not too late. It's not too late. Let's sit down and chat these things through now. But I was uncomfortable at this point in doing that. So I passed. You know, you made so many good points there. I think

your observation that you have nonstop opportunity for infusion, for discussions around money, your examples of the tap, your examples of the debit versus credit. Remember, these are things we all do understand. These are not complicated investment strategies. I think parents can do their kids a huge favor by talking those things through on an ongoing basis, going back to what we spoke of earlier too. It's all about choices.

It's all about trade-offs. Money is finite. You can do that over and over and over again. And the long-term impact you have on the kids is wonderful. And that leads me to the point you made that I think is the key point of this entire podcast. Money stress is the worst stress. It's pervasive. It overwhelms people. It eats away at them. I've been in a lucky position of doing this for decades now. And I've seen what's happened when people have straightened out their finances. Instead of missing the things they were overspending on, they've become much happier, much less stressed, all of those types of things. So I couldn't agree

with you more. And that's why I think parents really do owe it to the kids to start them on the right path, build those habits early. Yeah. We're talking like financial literacy, which is, as you know, defined as having the knowledge, skills and confidence to make responsible decisions at every life stage is a basic life skill. You cannot get through life without knowing how to manage money, knowing about these five pillars. And I think parents know this and they want they want their kids to avoid those, you know, the physical stresses, it can lead to high blood pressure and heart disease and anxiety and depression.

And it can even make you more vulnerable to fraud when you have money stress. And I think parents want their kids to have good habits and start these good habits at an early age because they know that the rewards are there, but there's just this feeling that it's important but not urgent, that they don't have the time. But you don't need to set aside specific blocks of time. This will crop up if you're willing to talk about it. And again, that's why I structured the book the way

I did, so that parents would know what specific topics and examples to discuss in an age-appropriate way at all these different stages. It's interesting all the research talking about how money stress compounds the other stresses. And so when you have true relationship stress, if you're also dealing with money stress, it makes the relationship stress much worse. Now, I think that's kind of common sense. We intuitively go, yeah, I agree with that. But I don't think we step back and think, wow, that's actually a very important point. That if I can get my finances under control, a lot of my other stresses will seem less large. I'll be able to tackle them more efficiently,

et cetera, et cetera. You know, you've done a great job in interviews and in the book, bringing up something that I think we should talk about more. You've got your money coming in, as we've mentioned, it's finite, but you can also look at how much you're going to give to charity, how much are you going to share in some way back with society, whether it's friends and family or directly to charities. You do a good job of talking about that and making sure people understand that's one of the options they have to consider. Yes, because I think it's often overlooked that the share or the donate piece. And it's so it's such a valuable lesson for young people for so many reasons. And it doesn't always have to be giving of your money or treasure. It can also be giving of your time.

And kids have so many great opportunities to give their time and give back to the community as they go through school. And I always found volunteering personally to be incredibly fulfilling. A great way to get real world experience. I was the chair of CPA Canada's Women's Leadership Initiative for many years and met wonderful CPAs from across the country that I'm still in touch with to this day. And so it helps build your network. It does so many great things. The other thing that's so amazing about the share lessons is no parent wants their kid to be spoiled or entitled. And bringing the sharing lesson in just reminds kids that not

everybody is fortunate enough to live the way they do. It puts things into perspective. And if they are starting to become demanding about things by doing some kind of a family philanthropy project or just doing some volunteering like at a soup kitchen in your neighborhood or uh you know like a homeless shelter or something like that it can really teach kids that you know they should be grateful for what they have. I think gratitude is also underrated. So that's why I feel so strongly about share. It really deals with this. You want your kids to have a sense of purpose, not a sense of entitlement.

Whether you're rich or poor, I think every parent would feel that way. Do you agree? Well, totally. I mean, Doris Day once said, gratitude is riches, complaint is poverty. And that's my favorite financial quote and nothing links more directly to happiness than gratitude and nothing links more directly to gratitude than perspective and i would argue community involvement getting involved with disadvantaged people etc nothing gives you perspective more effective within that and to your point earlier when you get involved in the community when you

volunteer selfishly it's the best thing you can do because you tend to feel very good about your own personality, what you're doing to add value, but you meet so many wonderful people. By nature, the kinds of other people getting involved tend to be giving, kind, caring, empathetic people. And a lot of my best friendships have resulted from charity involvement. So I agree with everything you're saying, but it's something we do need to teach kids at a younger age. We have the community involvement mandate in schools now. I think that's a positive, but I'd love parents to get more involved in pushing kids to get involved in different charities. My mother was wonderful that way. She was always pushing us to get involved in the community and it's a habit you build. And again, you reap the benefits of it.

So it's easy to keep that habit going as you go through. Even a small thing with young kids, like if they've outgrown some of their toys or some of their clothes just and they're still in good condition, just gathering those together and taking them somewhere where somebody like a newcomer to Canada or just homeless shelter or, you know, sometimes there's shelters for women, you know, who are suffering from domestic abuse. My daughter and I used to volunteer at Soup Sisters when she was in high school. They used to have like an in-person events making soup for women's shelters. There's so many, I've heard from so many families, great stories of volunteering. And just like, yeah, look and see what's going on at your church, your synagogue, your community, local community center. All of it. Couldn't agree more. I think it's the best investment you can make, as corny as that sounds. You made an interesting point earlier about grandparents spoiling kids. It's always been that way. But my argument is it's gotten not only worse, but it's gone too far. And there was a great article in the States a few years ago, a collection of photos of gifts under Christmas

trees, 40s, 50s, 60s, up to today. There's like five times more gifts under the trees now, but there's fewer kids per family. And it's crazy what some families are giving for Christmas or for any holiday related season. And I think, again, the grandparents are trying to be generous. They're trying to be kind. They're trying to ingratiate themselves and deepen the relationship. But I really do think it's gone too far. Do you not agree? Yeah, I think it becomes an arms race. And I blame Instagram.

They're doing it for the gram. Everyone wants to have that photo under the tree with all their unboxing videos. Oh, my God. I feel like social media has made all of that so much like the stakes are just raised so high for everything for weddings for holidays for engagements for I'm like I feel like we grew up in a simpler time like I feel lucky for that but I really worry about my kids because they are growing up in these times where everything is for um social media consumption and everyone gets FOMO, the fear of missing out. My kids are going to watch this part and just laugh because I'm the worst.

I never remember their birthdays, ever, ever. Like, Courtney says, Dad, you forgot my birthday for like the fourth straight year, and I'm in my pocket. Well, here's 20 bucks. Like, that's all I have on me. No card, no nothing. I'm horrible for giving gifts. Yeah, exactly.

I always say to the kids, oh, whatever. You know, who cares? It's all about I love you. It's not about the gift. And that excuse is not cutting it anymore. I'm going to have to step up at some point. So, yeah, I do not spoil my kids that way at all. Yeah, I think like this year with my son, we happened to be in New York around the time of his birthday and we went to see a Broadway show together. It was called An Enemy of the People. It was with Jeremy Strong and he he was in succession that we both loved. So that was such an amazing birthday gift for me to buy tickets for us to see that show together. Like that, I think is, and they say experiences,

people value them so much more than stuff. So, but unfortunately those experiences are also very expensive as we said. Well, that's what I said when my kids complained about no birthday gifts, I said, let's go for a walk. That experience, I think, will bond us more than any kind of good. I'm surprised you guys didn't go see Game of Thrones, the musical. That's got to be coming out soon. Your son should be front row center for that, baby. I'm sure he will be.

But we did watch House of the Dragons obsessively. Yeah, I wonder if they're going to make a musical out of that. I wouldn't. You're right. It's such great IP. I would not be surprised. Now, we wonder if they're going to make a musical out of that. I wouldn't, you're right. It's such great IP. I would not be surprised. Now, we don't, we haven't mentioned your daughter much. Is she out of the family and doesn't speak to people at all?

She doesn't even come up in conversation. No, she is definitely in the family. So she seems to have taken these lessons to heart. So she went to Western. She did a BMOS degree. Then she became a CPA and then a CFA. Wow. So her name's Natalie. So she has now surpassed both my husband and myself, her only CPAs. And I mean, she likes to have a good time. She likes to travel. I mean, she she you know,

she had a bit one of those summers where she had been studying for like the last five summers for all those designations. And she did some travel this summer with her friends to, you know, just to be able to enjoy herself. But I, you know, I do joke around that my kids are mostly money smart, but they are, I mean, they're, they do have good values. They do understand the value of a dollar. Um, she, she has a good career. She's working at CIBC. Like she, I don't have as many like gory stories about her. Well, you tell her that I speak for the CFAs a lot and I always take the stage and say, that's a lot of coursework and a lot of material to go through to learn. You can't be at an index fund.

And half of them laugh and half of them kind of go, I wish you hadn't said that. What, what would you suggest as you look out there in the landscape you've got great material obviously but are there any other resources that you think yes people should be paying attention to these anybody on youtube any courses anything in this area you think could help parents yeah and i think i actually got this um from your course which is i have a web page on our website called further resources that i'm constantly updating and adding to where we do list out some of the some of the books we like some of the courses that we like I mean your your first guest as I mentioned the Michelle Obama personal finance creed has

amazing stuff like I I've always been a huge fan of his and yours so you know the the videos that you both create um explaining personal finance topics are something i highly recommend um so yeah we're constantly adding to that list you know some things you have to pay for some books obviously some courses are paid but there are good free resources out there you just have to vet them and that's one of the problems with these like we didn't really talk about influencers, financial influencers, but there's so much like entertaining content out there that is just not good, solid financial advice. Like, did you hear about this recent thing where they were telling people to deposit checks to an account and then withdraw the cash before the bank could kind of figure out that there was no funds in there to cover it. Like kiting checks, which is like something I learned about when I was an auditor. Like you

can't do that. And that's a great example. Or Canadians that are getting advice to open 401ks or Roth IRAs, which we don't have in Canada. It's American. There's a lot of American influencers. So you have to really vet the content. And I mean, I think our financial institutions, the securities exchanges, some of the investment companies and banks are doing a good job educating their consumers about these financial topics and products, et cetera. Well, I regret putting out

the Wealthy Barber's Guide to Check Kiting. In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have put that video out. I'm pulling that video. I assure you, Robin, that was a mistake. I've got spectacular news for you. This may be the best news you've had in a long time for appearing as a guest on the wealthy barber podcast.

You in fact are going to be receiving a wealthy barber hat. And this is, yeah, this is, it's a baseball hat. It doesn't get any bigger. I would expect you may wear it everywhere. Weddings, funerals, we'll take it off at a funeral, obviously be appropriate, but they're, they're amazing. We love getting swag. Oh yeah. This is all the swag we have.

I love getting swag. Yeah. There's no, there's no other swag to have, but there's going to be a wealthy barber hat coming your way. You've been a fantastic guest. I knew you would be, and it is tough following up to Preet because he is a master communicator and a fine fine person and I think that's one of the reasons people like him so much but as are you and it's been a pleasure getting to know you and you've really helped so much yeah you've been great today and hopefully you and I'll be able to do another one of these relatively soon and uh give my best to your family okay thank you so much again for having me I've loved talking to you.

I knew I would, and I was very excited about this. So thanks, Dave. All right. My pleasure. Talk to you soon.