The Wellness Scoop - 10 Years of Deliciously Ella: A Candid Conversation with Founder Ella Mills and CEO Matthew Mills

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

This special episode celebrates the 10-year anniversary of Deliciously Ella and is also the first ever live recording of the feel better podcast. Founder, Ella Mills, and CEO, Matthew Mills, are joined by journalist Laura Jackson for a candid conversation reflecting on the past 10 years, the highs and lows of the company’s journey, and to discuss what they’ve learnt in the process.   They discuss: How plant-based and wellness went from niche to mainstream Why the brand has stayed relevant Being a nimble business The evolution of Deliciously Ella over the last 10 years Challenging times and learnings Staying true to Deliciously Ella’s values From a recipe blog to 6 books, a podcast, plant-based food products, a restaurant, and a holistic wellness app Advice and learnings from growing and running a company Finding a work-life balance Looking ahead to the future of Deliciously Ella See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hi, I'm Ella Mills, the founder of Deliciously Ella, and this is our podcast, Delicious Ways to Feel Better. Each episode explores various aspects of our mental and our physical health to help you make small simple changes to your life to feel both happier and healthier and today we have an extra special episode. It is our first ever live recording and this is live from a beautiful room within the Royal Albert Hall in London to celebrate our 10 year anniversary, 10 years since I founded the company and started writing the recipe website www.deliciouslyella.com. So I hope you enjoy this episode. It's a very candid, very honest interview about the last 10 years with myself and Matthew, my husband and our CEO about what's gone wrong and

very much also what's gone right. It's hosted by the absolutely brilliant Laura Jackson. And thank you so much for listening. Well, hello, everyone. Thank you so much for coming this evening. This is actually our first live event in it must be about three and a half years now so yes a bit nerve-wracking um I was worried no one was going to come an hour ago so it's really nice to see it's so full and really really special occasion as well as being our first live event in um quite some time it is also in honor of the fact that in two weeks time Delicious

Cielo as a brand will celebrate its 10th anniversary. And I'm really pleased to say that we are joined tonight by Laura Jackson, a brilliant founder, broadcaster and author from presenting on the BBC, ITV and Channel 5, to running her own company, Glassette, recently dubbed the net supporter of interiors and raising two small children, all among a host of other extraordinary accomplishments. Laura also knows what it's like to juggle

one billion million things at one time, and we are honoured to have her here. Oh, thanks. billion million things at one time and we are honoured to have her here oh thanks well I'm so happy that I am your host I can't wait to talk to you about the past 10 years and about your kind of dynamic duo as now the Deliciously Ella brand I mean first of all can you believe it's been 10 years since you wrote your first recipe? No, honestly, it feels like one of those things that the last decade has moved so fast. I mean, I look back, we were actually filming a little video yesterday as part of this 10 year celebration. And we were talking about these old pictures of ourselves. I mean, we have, let's be honest, we've aged quite a lot in the last 10 years.

Just so much has happened. We look like such babies. And, you know, we were in so many ways. I was doing traditional salad for three years before we started doing it together. And at that point, there was no aim to be here today. There was no kind of true ambition. Also, at that point as well, what we're doing now, which is about health and well-being and plant based food was so niche so strange the very first recipe and it's almost embarrassing to admit what it was was for roasted sweet potatoes which now what were these instructions it was revolutionary

chopped potato yeah put in oven with paprika and cinnamon okay fine I'll give you that but I think that was so kind of wild about it was okay that was like extra basic but you know at that point and then there was the sweet potato brownies which was one of the kind of recipes that really actually made the brand go kind of semi-viral but it was at this point no one was cooking this way no one was having these conversations even saying to people and incredibly intelligent people around me saying you know what we eat can really change our health seemed weird quite far out and certainly received our fair share of criticism for that opinion whereas now it's so mainstream plant-based absolutely everywhere I think it's almost 50% of households are buying into it so it's a kind of extraordinary change I think both

personally and professionally so it feels like it's been forever and ever and ever. And yet it's been such a whirlwind. 10 years ago, we didn't even know each other existed. Now we've got company, two children. So yeah, mad. How can you summarize the evolution of the brand in 10 years, if you can? Like you were saying,

it kind of started in your bedroom and now you're celebrating your 10th year. You've got products and Adeli and so many other amazing things how how could you kind of summarize the last 10 years what do you think i think that first and foremost we've always been a plant-based food and wellness company and i think it's just the things that we've done underneath that that have changed so having a restaurant having food products having our app that's what's changed but i think the actual foundations of what delicious deli always has been is what's carried us through. I mean, did you have any clear goals at the beginning, Ella, when you started? Did you think,

God, I'd just love to have a deli or I'd love to kind of make my own products? Did you have those thoughts? No, I just really didn't want people to think I was weird that was that was really fundamentally what I wanted to achieve because it felt so niche it felt so strange and I really wanted to get people on board with eating this way cooking in this way feeling like this was actually a really exciting and brilliant way to live your life and could potentially have transformative effects on your health your well-being I really wanted it to be something you know I was in such a desperate place when I started to let you see I was so ill but I was also really depressed I was so isolated I was so lost I was so confused and discovering what felt at this point like this whole new world of well-being

truly changed my life but it didn't feel accessible it didn't seem available and I felt that this would be beneficial for so many other people and I wanted to kind of untap it and unlock it and say you know what we could make really really simple things that could genuinely change the way you feel like why aren't we all doing this and in that sense you're absolutely right like it's the same today as it was then as I really wanted to change the preconceptions around this type of food. I mean wellness and health has been on a real journey over the past 10 years and I feel like you've transcended all of those trends. How have you stayed relevant? I think that we've stayed relevant because we haven't lent too far into a kind of what felt like a hot trend. I think that

we really believe that plant-based food is important and that it is the future. And that in 20 years, in 30 years, probably sooner than that, it will be really unusual not to have a fully plant-based diet, at least a heavily, heavily plant-rich diet. And so I think that what we've tried to do is stay away from things that we felt like they were just going to be too hot or they were something too of the moment. And we've just tried to do something- Like what? Well i think you you see it in all the books that can come out in january where they're promising a diet that might help you lose loads of weight really quickly or suddenly give you instant happiness or something like that and it just doesn't i want that book and i think that all of these um things that offer easy answers can be incredibly seductive but i

don't think they're credible. I don't think that they're really serious. I think that what we've really, really tried to focus in on and it's something that we really think about in detail every day is doing stuff that we don't think is just going to be something that just comes and goes. We want this to be something that can last. And the only way that you can do that is if you're doing something

that is actually long-term credible. And I think also beyond that, I guess it's probably both of our personalities as well as being quite genuine with what we do. I'll never forget this, the most amazing trade show in the US every year called Expo West and walking around it together

looking at the most extraordinary array of new products. And it's so innovative, it's so exciting, but it's also so ridiculous because it's taking every single trend and like putting it in steroids so you had like probiotic ketogenic pop tarts because i'm pretty sure if you put your probiotics in the toaster you've got no live bacteria and deep fat fry it yeah and so i think that we've always felt i guess because it's the brand's always been really rooted in like a very true story I think we both felt quite a personal responsibility to be really genuine with it and

never put our name to something that's like yeah just of the moment in that sense but I also think probably staying relevant's been because we've evolved a lot I do think even though we had this amazing opportunity when the first book came out in 2015, and that was the kind of moment the brand really launched. I think if we just kept writing cookbooks, I don't think we'd be here having these conversations today. I think we probably kept a more interesting story by keeping evolving. Yeah, I mean, we talked earlier about, as a business, being as nimble as possible. I mean, how do you do that?

Yeah, I think when you're starting, I think action definitely beats strategy. I think you just need to start, you know, I think if you go into a supermarket and you look at the shelves, it'd be difficult to really spot something that just doesn't exist. And so I think that you have to have the boldness just to start. And I think that with that, you learn and you get better and you really, really understand in detail what kind of consumer need you're really trying to solve with what you do. And I think that as a business, as we've grown, that is the thing that we know now so much more than we did when we started. And I think that there's a benefit to being kind of a buzzword of nimble or agile. I think that what that really comes down to

is not letting ego get in the way of something that you've done wrong. And so not doubling down on something where it's not going well and insisting that that's right. I think it's having the courage to accept that if something's wrong, you want to get out of it.

But equally, when you have huge confidence that it's the Netflix story of 99% of their sales were coming from, I think, from videos or from DVDs, sorry, but they took their business completely online because the founders and the senior team there really believed that that was the future and you see what's happened to Netflix. And I think it's also that boldness of judgment that you have when you're so intricately involved in all of the small details of what you see that you're able to make those big decisions. Ella, just before you met Matt because you'd obviously started the business

three years before you you guys met how was the business then and how kind of did you start the brand from the recipe site we talked earlier you had a app yeah I mean honestly I always think it's like a really careful balance I know you want to come across as overly self-deprecating but equally my god none of this would have been here today even a teeny tiny bit if we weren't doing it together I mean he's led the business as it is today a thousand percent and I think up until we started working together it was all quite reactionary so I had started the website and then people started reading it somehow and then they say oh can you do this recipe can you do this recipe oh could you do cooking classes like oh it'd be really nice to meet more like-minded people would you get together so I started doing

supper clubs and so in that sense it was all really led and what people were asking for and a few people said oh would you ever put it into an app? I did an app. And so it didn't have a strategy at all. It was really exciting and it was really fun, but it wasn't particularly strategic. And it was also quite niche, but it was when the first book came out and it kind of really snowballed that I was actually really, really overwhelmed by it. I mean, it was incredible and obviously, you know, so grateful for the opportunity but equally I was 23 24 I had just come out of a really difficult period of my life I had no idea what I was doing truly no idea and I felt so kind of crippled with anxiety with it because I felt really vulnerable

like people thought you had the answers to things that I did not have the answer to, you know, suddenly like, she's the guru, I'm not a guru. And yeah, you know, the queen of this, and it was a very overwhelming moment, actually. And it was really your kind of braveness and boldness to say, okay, well, let's completely change the way you're doing it, then let's do it together. And instead of waiting on other people, and reacting to everyone, let's do it together and instead of waiting on other people and reacting to everyone let's create our own business let's put ourselves in the driving seat and that was that was what really changed everything I think Ella's incredibly humble in this but you know the thing is the 23 year old to suddenly be cast into a spotlight and be on front page of newspapers is a really difficult thing for anyone to go through and it happened very very quickly but it equally happened at an amazing time in my life where I was

doing a job that I really did not enjoy and I was desperate to leave and but I had gained some skills I thought I'd be able to transfer into what we're doing I was working finance and so it also happened at just the most amazing time in our lives for each other as well both in meeting each other because I think that we were incredible stabilizing forces just for each other immediately as people but then that evolved professionally very very quickly I mean you reached out to Ella via her dad because you saw an article on her I mean that's amazing I did I mean what did you really think when you received that email who is this guy what does he want I know honestly I was in a meeting because all of this was

exploding and it was you know opportunities left right and center and I was quite kind of deer in headlights because this is the time so your book had come out yeah yeah it was about a month later and it was number one on Amazon across all categories it'd been the fastest selling debut cookbook ever. It's suddenly been in like every media outlet. And so I was in a meeting with my literary agent at that point, Amazing Women Still Works, her trust with my life. And I was really trying to focus on everything she was saying.

My phone just kept beeping. It was my dad. And at this point, my dad and I weren't that close. And so I was quite surprised to be getting a lot of messages from him. He had gone on Google, taken pictures of Matt and was quite surprised to be getting a lot of messages from him he had gone on google taking pictures of Matt and sending them to me I had also just broken up with a boyfriend about four and a half years and so I like really wasn't looking for anything and he was just saying like this is the most charming man you'll meet in your whole life you're gonna love him so much he also wasn't trying to take me on a date. So it's also a bit awkward.

He just wants to make you into a massive business. Have you ever had a message like that on Tinder? Hi, do you want to make a brand? Exactly. So anyway, he was right because we met three times for work and then went on three dates in the course of a week. Did you drink wine on any of those meetings? No, we didn't. I did offer you a glass of wine on the third time that we met.

And they stood you up on the second time. And she stood me up on the second time. Sure, okay, so this is going well. I mean, you talked about the first book was massive. I'm sure we all remember that book coming out and with all of the good press. Unfortunately, in the UK, we just love to kind of crush the people

that are doing really well. So when you get good press press you get the bad press because we find it very hard in this country to celebrate people I don't really know why how did you find that time when the press weren't being that kind yeah it was I had kind of two really good years it was it was overwhelming but it was good yeah and then it all changed quite suddenly. We had a really bad year in 2017. And I have to say that was, it was rough looking back at it. I remember there was one day, there was one article that someone wrote comparing me to Donald Trump. And I was like, oh, come on.

Feel free to name that journalist, by the way. I can't be that bad. No offence. No, that's okay okay you are definitely not definitely not Donald Trump yeah and that got really personal as well and I've always felt so strongly like I totally appreciate there's an element like I put myself out there and I think even though I didn't really know I was doing that and what I was doing when I did it I kept doing it like absolutely I could have quit at any point to some extent and I kept doing that so I think you know you've absolutely got to take responsibility for that but I've always felt

so strongly I don't mind anyone who has professional criticism of me or our brand or what we do I think that's more than fair enough and that's a great conversation to have but some of it then started to get really really personal and there was a big attack on kind of any woman I have to say it was only women who were working within the health and well-being space you didn't see it for any of the very very successful men that work in the space as well and it was really kind of quite nasty vitriol and that was a challenging six months to say the least but equally I think it was quite good in learning a bit of less attachment I've never ever read an interview I've done back since I just don't want to know not even now no oh my

gosh I can't believe that I'm shocked um I mean how important was it at that time to surround yourself with people who really understood you and your brand and what you wanted to do and just supported you yeah I think I mean we've always been so lucky because we've had the most amazing team at delicious the ella since day one and you was so brilliant in your hiring of everyone because you've always said like i remember on day one saying you know we've got to be the dumbest people in the room we've got to hire people that know what we don't know and like really lean into all our weaknesses all our blind spots and I think having that extraordinary structure internally within the team was kind of has been what's allowed the business to grow and evolve and us to have that strength and courage to keep going as you create this brilliant network of of trust yeah it was

the only time ever as well we talked earlier about kind of fads we were pigeonholed into this thing about Ella being this clean of queen of clean sorry and about clean eating and it was never a term that Ella had used and had associated with but it was something that I think because the press were looking to pigeonhole Ella into something that was the kind of the neatest way of doing it and so it just became this thing that it wasn't really and I think that was the reason ultimately that it blew over and we were able to get through it okay. But it was, it was challenging for us at the time because we were, that was the point when the brand was really growing. And we were hiring a team and people had left really stable jobs at great companies to come work for this business that was really just promising them a potential dream of what we could do.

It was a really nerve-wracking moment, but it was a moment that I think that because we felt like the values that we were communicating externally to people, we believed in so deeply, it was something that really carried us through that. Whereas I feel like if you are focused on a kind of fad type thing, it's the kind of thing that can just knock you over. What's been the biggest challenge, would you say, that you've faced so far? 2017 was difficult when all of that was happening and we were also kind of semi-victims of our own success because in late 2017 early 2018 we had opened three cafes and we shut two of them and one of the reasons we had done that was because our products business was doing so well and it was growing so fast and it just we didn't have the

internal capacity to do lots of things really well at that point and so our cafe business was was kind of subscale for what it was and it was losing money at the time but our products business was was growing so such great guns and so again it was something when when we shut that down two of our sites down it becomes this whole kind of failing business thing that was really latched on to and people took a lot of joy in yeah some people can't take joy in that but but it was actually, we were doing it, it felt, from a position of strength. And it was also happening when my mum was passing away. So it was a really crappy time.

So how did you get through those times that were really difficult, just being together? Yeah, 100%. I always think people always ask what it's like to work together. And you know it's good no because I think someone asked me about it this week actually in a podcast I was doing and they were saying surely that pushes you guys to the edge because it's so consuming but actually I don't think we could have ever done it if we weren't in it together because I think we've got

such a I mean we literally I wouldn't say we live in each other's pockets at all because we are quite separate but we are like continuously side by side I reckon we spend 80 percent of our time within like we spend a lot of time 15 meters of each other but you're both very different people I mean I only met you together to talk about this but you're both very different people. I mean, I only met you together to talk about this, but you're both very different brains and very different people. So coming together, I think is really quite powerful. What are your personality types within the business? That's a great question. We actually had a big team day today. And we had some good discovery insights where they put you into kind of different colors, and you start to understand your

personality type. And I think that sometimes I have a different personality type in the business from what I am personally because I feel like that's what the business needs at this time and I think Ella's kind of the opposite personality type in that way and I think that it's a good combination for us in a business and I think it's a good combination for us as people because I think we are able to fill in the gaps where each of us are and support each other in the areas that they need it and I think it's one of the reasons that it's worked so well working together as we do incredibly different things in the business I think if we were both really focused on the same thing it would be really really tricky because we would just be

invariably having different opinions on stuff but I think because we have complete trust in each other and we do very very different things I think it works to enhance what each other does versus take away. But you're very logical and methodical. And I am not. I like a big picture and kind of excitement and an energy. And it works quite well together. Yeah, it works quite well. So what is the business

now like you talked about you've got plants you've got the product business how like tell us all what the business is right now so we have four different businesses the first part of the business which is the kind of really original part of the business which is kind of exclusively ella with the support of a couple of really fantastic people in our team but i'm not so much involved as is the podcast and ella's books. And then we have three different businesses, which I'm the CEO of. So we have our food products business that we launched in 2016. And we're now in a lot of distribution here in the UK. And we just tomorrow we're launching into the largest retailer in Austria, which we're really excited about. And then launching to

Germany in May and then the US later in the year. We then have our restaurant, which is the kind of non-scalable part of our business. We like having one site where we can hopefully create a really great brand experience for people and have a home for our brand, but we're not looking to open multi-sites. And then we have our app, which is the other really scalable part of our business. So we started a new app in 2019 under a subscription model, and it's got 800 recipes and 250 exercise videos. And we think it's an absolutely amazing tool for holistic health. And we've got massive, massive ambition to really, really grow that as well. So I'd say that they're kind of the two big growth focuses of our products and our app and the brand home, which needs as much attention is our restaurant.

And was it a conscious decision to not name all of the different parts of the business Deliciously Ella? Yeah, I think Deliciously Ella is our platform. It's where we consolidate everything within plant-based food and kind of holistic wellness that we do. But we don't feel like it has to be the absolute kind of must for each thing that we do. So all of our products at the moment are branded under delicious yellow we have ambitions to launch a new brand that would have a lot of the same values it'd still be all using natural ingredients all completely plant based ingredients potentially targeting some different parts within the store and we're really

excited we're working on that at the moment. Our restaurant, Plants, we just felt for a restaurant, we thought it would be a more kind of aspirational place that you might be able to drag your boyfriend to come if it's called Plants versus Delicious Yellow. And then our app is called Feel Better. And it was called Delicious. Our app was called Delicious Yellow, but as it became this much more kind of holistic tool,

we felt Feel Better encompasses it better. So Delicious Yellow is our home, but we're really proud of these other brands and streams that we're developing. What do you think the definition of wellness is and has it changed in your opinion? I think it has. I think it's been on its own little journey

over the last 10 years, definitely. As we said at the beginning, I think certainly 10 years ago it was quite niche quite weird no one was really using the term wellness no one was really thinking about holistic health as a total outlet thinking about kind of meditation and mindfulness and looking after our mental health in those sorts of capacities about sleep about the connection to sleep and our appetite and etc and then I think we went on this kind of explosion around 2015 2016 2017 where healthy food came to the forefront and there was more healthy cookbooks published than anyone could ever have in their kitchen it felt quite trendy

and I think that's kind of calmed down in some ways. And it sort of settles into a rhythm where there is now an acceptance that eating natural, unprocessed food is the future and does absolutely impact our health. But I think that we are slowly starting to collectively piece the pieces of the puzzle together and understand the fact that we should never really look at food in isolation, which I think, A, is kind of a healthier mental approach. But also, I think for our genuine health, we need to look at it in combination with how we look after our mental health through practices like mindfulness and meditation, our sleep and our movement, because ultimately, eating broccoli can only do so much. And I think we've probably put too much pressure on that in the past. I think this is a healthier approach generally to look at it as a total. But I also think, particularly in the Western world, we do drastically need to rethink our health strategies, the way we're looking at what we eat, about what's available to eat for the country. And we do need to start putting natural plant-based food at the absolute forefront

of that as a founder very early in my journey i'm sure there's lots of pudding entrepreneurs out there what would you say is the best advice that you could pass on from your 10 years in business i always ask him for one piece of advice and he always says it's too hard to get this one you can give lots of pieces i'm making some notes I have on my iPhone I have some I have notes where each day I make a note with something that I may have learned but I would say um one is never seek easy answers um within what you do I'd say there's a very big difference between being right and being popular and I think that having a focus on that throughout is really important. And I think that just from a lifestyle perspective, I think to grow a company, it is all-encompassing.

And I don't think you can read about how to build a company. I think you have to do it. And I think that you have to accept that it will take over your life and your life will be so full in so many ways from all of the incredible things you get to do when you lead a company, but it will equally shrink. And I've really focused, and particularly the last kind of two years, in this sense of essentialism where I can only do so many things well. And I think that I can be a great leader of our business.

I think I can be a great dad. I think I can be a great husband. I think I can be a great dad I think I can be a great husband I think I can be a great friend to the people I really really care about but there's there's really not much else that I can do um I'm just kind of full and I mean that's a lot yeah and it is and I think I think having that acceptance that you know I can't be everything to everyone I have to just focus on the stuff that really really matters has actually it's been a really empowering thing it's made me much happier yeah I also think nothing's ever been quite as bad as we thought you know you go through that cycle where something seems kind of catastrophic and especially at the very early stages and you think oh my gosh that could be it we could be closed tomorrow lights could be off you know you do try and find a way to always find a solution put one foot in

front of the other and we are still here and I feel like to me that's been really testament to it and I think it's probably lowered the stress levels now when something bad happens you think okay actually like we got through that we got through that we got through that and some of them have been like worse than others and funnier than others but definitely like in retrospect you realize if you want to find the solution, nothing ever has to be quite as bad as it seems at the time. Yeah. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore

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Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn Ads. Email bob at libsyn.com to learn more. That's B-O-B at L-I-B-S-Y-N dot com. What would you say then has been your biggest learning, your biggest lesson? Gosh, that's a great question. I learned a really valuable lesson.

I said to the team earlier again, actually, when I was 16 and I went to school in America and I was a complete homebody and I was complete kind of fish out of water at this school. And after my first semester there, where I was really, really struggling, the teacher, my parents came over and we had a parent's evening. The teacher said to my parents, Matthew really needs to internalize the solution. And it was such an empowering thing to tell this kind of fish out of water kid that was there. And for me, what that means is that I don't shift blame. I don't expect other people to fix my stuff. I take responsibility for it. And I think that if you're going to start a business, you have to take responsibility.

The business is a reflection, it feels like, of us. And if there's something wrong in the business, then it is absolutely down to us to take responsibility. The business is a reflection, it feels like, of us. And if there's something wrong in the business, then it is absolutely down to us to fix it. And I think it is that sense of personal responsibility throughout everything that we do. We try and take such pride in. We want Delicious the Ella to be something that customers are proud of, our consumers are proud of, our team are proud of. of and obviously we're not going to get everything right all of the time but we we really care we really want to and i think that having that sense of internal empowerment to create the changes that you want to create within yourselves or within to support the people around you has been something that's been really helpful for me and

has it helped me from as a 16 year old it's definitely helped me in in my journey to this but has there ever been a point where you have gone, I hold my hands up, guys. This is absolutely not work. I'm going to take this. Has there been a situation like that? Oh, my gosh, yeah. No, there has.

There's been a couple of product launches where we had one product where we were about to launch it, and we were at the first production of the product. We sat on the line and we were like, this doesn't taste quite right. And then we're like, maybe it will taste good in two days' time. And so we went and we tasted in two days' time and it still didn't taste good. And so we had to pull the lorries. We've had stuff like that.

I mean, closing two of our cafes was a massive thing. I mean, going through COVID was mad. Even the last, you know, it's really difficult running a business at the moment with hyperinflation and changing work habits and dislocated supply chains around the place. It now is difficult. But to Ella's point, I don't think anything's ever quite as bad as you think it might be, but it's also never quite as good as you think it might be. It typically exists in that gray area. And I think with through this kind of sandwich that you have throughout time of running a business of failure and success I think within that you have experience and you have humility and you have the knowledge I hope to melt to be

able to make much better decisions Ella is there anything that's happened on your journey in the business that you've gone oh I can't believe this oh my god there's been just so many like I think a little bit less now there's probably more order to the chaos but in those first few years there was just so many times I'll never ever forget it was one of the most kind of exciting moments but also like what are we doing moments when we were first launching and it was our very very first products and they were our energy balls and I think as I kind of alluded to I've always been probably a bit more cautious and nervous and you're kind of braver and bolder naturally and you said well if we're going to launch these the place we need to have them is Starbucks and I was like okay but nice idea but like obviously that's

not going to happen like why would they take our product and they didn't even exist at this point and you went on linkedin and you got the name of the md and you sent like 20 different variations of the email out hoping one would land and it did and somehow he replied immediately and we got a meeting with him and we were so prepped for this to be terrifying and colleagues of ours had said you know it could be a really daunting experience and they were so nice and we came out of it and they were like yeah we want to list it but we want to list it and it was in about two weeks time or something was that we didn't have a product like we didn't have a finished

product and we were also going that day to Wilderness Festival with the cafe and again we thought this would be quite a small thing it turned out we did 1.5 tons of avocado toast that first day oh my goodness like it was and then people like you ran out because this was the tipping point when healthy food became cool no one else in the festival made avocado toast believe it or not it's like a mad thought now because it's everywhere and so there we were so we were in a field at a festival surrounded by everyone who goes to a festival. So they're having a really good time. And there we are, you're on the phone

to like various different factories, suppliers, being like, we've got to get them to Starbucks tomorrow. We've got 1.5 tons of avocado going out the door and people are like, where's the avocado? And it was just complete chaos, like a bit exciting chaos because it was like oh my god here's our pipe dream and it's taking flight like my god this might work like there really might be something here but whoa we're out of our depth and so it was a kind of brilliant

chaos I guess we had quite a few of those sorts of moments in those first few years which was exhilarating but also exhausting Matthew Ella always says that you are forever the entrepreneur always thinking about ideas a bit crazy with them so how do you decide what you want to do within the business and who who holds you back oh my gosh yeah I mean our team is very entrepreneurial which which really helps i think that as we've grown there's been less need to be thinking of completely wacky things because we now have enough knowledge enough data enough understanding of what of what really really works but equally i mean typically throughout the life of the business we started a new business every two years and our restaurant will have its

second anniversary in mid-2023 so and i've already got an itch to start something else and a couple of ideas of things i want to do some which i think are terrible ideas and i've come around to them being terrible ideas a couple of other things i think might have legs but we want to be a business that can facilitate opportunities for the team to have these new experiences as well of being able to have that kind of startup within also the growth side of the business that we have now. And I think our business has also got to a size now where when you're first starting, it's just complete chaos, where you get to a certain size where there's enough people doing great things that you can stop the things kind of slightly more outside of the box on these things too.

So I think that will, unfortunately for you for you I'm afraid that will linger talking of chaos how do you manage being parents to two beautiful girls and run a business together I mean honestly is it stressful of course it's hell it's amazing. But yeah, it is chaos. I mean, our girls are one and a half and almost three. The worst age. I'm sorry. They're just honestly so annoying. Love them, but annoying.

Yeah, so go on. How do you manage everything at home, the juggle? I think, again, it's probably accepting, like, you absolutely can't do it all. Like, we really need help and we've got the most amazing lady janet who lives with us she was meant to come for eight weeks and she'd been with us for about 12 hours and he said she can't leave we'll have nothing janet she's not leaving the building i was like we just met her she's gotta be about to be three and she's still

with us and yeah there's again i think it's like whether it's at home whether it's at work like I do think sometimes I certainly feel this because my name's in the title of of the business that people give you a lot of credit and not trying to be kind of like overly self-deprecating I don't mean we've done nothing but equally like oh my god it's been a team effort and I think that is both personally and professionally and I also feel like as a woman and as mum and I'm sure you feel this too and I'm sure lots of people feel so I do feel like there is this extraordinary pressure to achieve it all to do it all to be the kind of perfect mum and have this huge career and that's that's not plausible like within a certain bandwidth like if you're going to be working seven days a week you're not

going to be able to be with your children seven days a week like when Sakai was born which isn't something I would recommend in retrospect one of my worst ideas ever but I was back at work after four weeks and I remember someone saying oh that made me feel like I was doing a bad job when I had a similar age child and I was like no in a way I feel like I wasn't doing my best job it's just an interesting and I do think it's so important to acknowledge that like you you cannot do everything it is impossible I I would love to spend a bit more time with the girls and that's something I hope we can kind of get a better balance of going forwards we both have though a kind of it's pretty much a non-negotiable sometimes work will get in the way but every morning we get our girls out of bed

and we have breakfast with them and we get them ready and every morning we get our girls out of bed and we have breakfast with them and we get them ready and every evening we give them a bath and we put them to bed and it's kind of a non-negotiable in my day that there's nothing more important in work than getting to have that time with the girls and I think that by having that time and knowing that I'm there in those intimate moments where we can get them out of bed and we can put them in at the end of the night that makes the rest of work feel worthwhile I mean we never used to do that we used to work really late each night and oftentimes most of the time we go back to work after we've put the girls to bed but having those moments and making sure we have that those points in our day I think keeps us sane. Well though Skye who's the three-year-old

now her favorite game is to pretend that she's going to the office because she's been to the office once and when she came we were having a bake sale so she thinks all you do when you go to the office is eat cake. I mean that sounds like a great job. Best office ever so she every day pretends that she's going to the office and she like packs up all her bags and she says bye I'm going to the office and you say what are you going to do she says eat cake. oh my gosh I mean there is so much pressure isn't there especially when you live out your life on Instagram and you are really honest that people think that you've got it all and everything's really sussed out how do you cope with that with people thinking that you do have it all and you're always happy now and I think it was a little bit like what we were saying

earlier I feel like I started out sharing like what we were saying earlier I feel like I started out sharing like absolutely anything and everything I was doing felt kind of quite intimate and quite personal because it was a small audience and then I think as the audience grows you suddenly realize like there's a level of vulnerability there that's quite terrifying and you're kind of yeah telling people things and people know quite a lot about you which is you I don't know it was kind of incredible because you have this sense of allowing people to feel seen and connected and I think that's a kind of extraordinary experience and privilege but equally it's quite

daunting and I remember feeling as well like as the team grew I was like gosh I would say you know I'd say something online perhaps about how you're feeling and then you walk into the office and you're like oh everyone knows this which is quite an it was quite an interesting experience but I think then as as the brand grew and as we had more some more negative experiences I definitely kind of pulled back a bit and felt I needed a bit more personal space for much better work but I also think did I should see Ellen now as a brand like in so many ways when it started I think it was a pseudonym I never intended it to be that wasn't I wasn't trying to be kind of very clever in that sense but I do think it was a kind

of alter ego in lots of ways and it was kind of trying to create something I was so unhappy and I was trying to change my life and Delicious Yellow became the absolute vehicle for that and it felt I think in in lots of ways this first few years I was inextricably linked to it like who the person was and what a brand was I don't I don't think you could really tell but I feel as well as as we've grown and you know as you came in and then we got kind of a bigger and bigger team and and and the company grew and grew it really started to feel to me almost like quite jarring in the sense that like I am not a delicious yellow anymore like I feel like we both grown up we both kind of had this like evolution and actually that is now a standalone brand and I think the foundations

of it the DNA of it are everything that I set in place 10 years ago but I very much feel now like I'm Ella Mills delicious Yellow is brand that's representative of everybody here today everybody's interested in this space anyone that wants to be a part of the community it's almost no more representative of me as it is of them. Did you ever think of changing the name because like you say when you have got your name above the door people just associate you being the brand was there ever a discussion to to change it yeah at the first branding agency we actually ever went and spoke to they said they're like delicious yellow is a brand name for food products terrible name don't hold back guys what do you really think

and so we we kind of flirted with the idea then but i think we've always had slightly different names i mean when we first launched our cafes they were called the then, but I think we've always had slightly different names. I mean, when we first launched our cafes, they were called the May Deli. And so we've always felt happy to have specific names within the different things that we've done. So our app is called Feel Better, our restaurant is called Plants. So I think Delicious D'Ela is our North Star. It's where all of our values are kept. And I think it's part of this entrepreneurial nature of our business is that we feel like sometimes it's better to have different names for the different activities that we do to really kind of more clearly delineate them. I mean but your vulnerability and the fact that you have shared

so many things has built this really engaged community I'm going to have to read this so I don't get it wrong you've got three million followers on social media and 180,000 subscribers on your app. So how do you stay connected to so many people without telling them everything that you're doing all of the time? So up until, well, actually still a little bit after Sky was born, who's our older daughter, I used to still read every single Instagram message every single day. Sometimes at like 5 a.m, I'd stay up really late doing it because I was like, I must reply to everyone. I must help them. I must help them. Then after she was born, and I think like two or three months afterwards, when I realised like how

exhausted, trying to go back to work with a four week old, and then trying to do all these other things on top, I realised I was mad. And I was was slightly losing it I think I needed to kind of take a little step back which is a shame because actually I used to love reading every single message and really feeling like I knew absolutely everything that anyone in our community was thinking or feeling about what we were doing what they were liking and also what they were not liking because it's the most amazing thing to learn from but even still we're so lucky because it has always had this kind of community element to it. People so clear on feedback and thoughts. And actually, as a person, that's amazing because you can sense the hard work you're putting into something has an element of value.

But then equally also as a business, it's been amazing to be guided by such clear feedback. Has being a parent changed the way that you ran the business or your thoughts about the business or how you grew it? Yeah because I think well before I got pregnant with Sky again it was just literally 24 7 seven days a week and in a way it was still after she was born and then we went into lockdown and I think that for me I was nine weeks pregnant with May who's our second daughter when we went into lockdown and I feel like I hadn't caught my breath at all since Guy was born and actually I think I was really really burnt out and not in a great place retrospectively and it was a really important moment to kind of reflect and

be like what was I thinking that six months was such an intense anxiety provoking experience in many ways I look back on it now actually I know it was a really really difficult time in lots of ways and it was a really difficult time at work but selfishly on a personal level it was quite a good check-in point actually trying to have a little bit more perspective and I think we had really clear and great conversations about that and I've definitely had a kind of different relationship with work ever since I think we've also felt as well one of us needs to be a bit more available if they're ill. I mean, you're so available for them. But trying to find out, because before that we were literally both, it felt like on call 24-7, seven days a week.

And that just didn't feel feasible anymore with both of them. Yeah, I think it clarifies a couple of things on that we want our business to be a really good business we want it to be something that when our girls grow up they're really proud of what it is and I think it's the other thing that's really reinforced to me just from from the business standpoint is we've always wanted or I've certainly always wanted this business to exist in 100 years time that's success for for me and I think that having kids you start to get that kind of lens of longevity of what stuff could look like and so I think it's definitely clarified that for me too so this is a big question what can we expect in the next 10 years gosh I think that we'll be doing I hope a lot of the same things at least from the existing business activities that

we have I hope that we continue to do those on much much larger scale I really believe that what Ella started when she started writing her her first recipes there I think it was like many entrepreneurs journeys where you try and fix a problem for yourself and actually find there's lots of other people who are searching for the same thing in searching for this type of food and I think Ella has played such a pivotal role in the growth of plant-based in the UK, and I'm so proud of her for it. I hope that in 10 years' time, we've played an even more important role. And I think that we will probably see some kind of divergence within plant-based as well, of stuff that is

heavily synthetic and heavily, heavily processed and perhaps really not good for you and I hope that we can as a company be the plant-based brand that is usually using really high quality natural ingredients who is genuinely really really good for you I think that we will probably have one or two more businesses as well by one or two you mean 10 yes Ella I'm going to say the absolute opposite I turned 30 last year and I feel like that was my kind of 20s was building deliciously Ella and it has been such a whirlwind both personally and professionally you know in the last seven years we've met we've got married we've had two kids we've launched four businesses we've written six cookbooks you know there's now going to launch in four countries this year.

Like, it's been busy. And I quite want to find a little bit kind of more space to be. I think we've cancelled 18 holidays in the last seven years. And I would love us to be able to find, with these new businesses, it might be hard. But I would love us to find a little bit more time and space as well to kind of be and breathe and enjoy it well thank you guys so much honestly you're such good people and I don't think you really realize because you are so good how much you have done for so many people and the fact that you've paved the way for lots of people in this space so a personal thank you and I'm sure

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