The Wellness Scoop - Are Two Meals a Day Enough? Eating Well for Less & Coffee

Episode Date: August 10, 2026

This week, we unpack the growing debate around meal timing and whether constant snacking is really helping our health, explore the latest report on the rising cost of healthy food, and take a look at the evidence behind coffee and heart health. Plus, we dive into the banana smoothie controversy that's taken over social media, discuss why prevention could be Britain's greatest economic investment and share our latest recommendations, from blackberry crumble to pickled cucumbers.  The Way code: https://www.thewayapp.com/wellnessscoop Send your questions for our weekly Q&A to ⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠ For more from Rhi and Ella:  Order your copy of Ella's new book: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quick Wins: Healthy Cooking for Busy Lives⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Order your copy of Rhi's new book: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Fibre Formula⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sign up to ⁠Rhitrition+⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I am genuinely so excited about today's sponsor because it's the way. Honestly, if you have listened to me any time over the last few months, you know I have become a little bit evangelical about this app. And I honestly recommend it to everyone. My friends, my family, people on Instagram, everyone. And she recommended it to me, so it's true. I've heard so much about it. It's just because it has had such a big impact on me.

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which is led by Henry, the founder, who's just the most amazing teacher. And he makes it seem somehow just incredibly simple, but exceptionally profound at the same time, which is a very rare skill. And I've been using it too. Yes, I've now finally begun a meditation journey and I've been doing some of the shorter practices on busy days because I completely understand why you talk about it so much, Ella. It really is a nice intro in for me. Yeah, it is and I'm so glad. Anyway, it's helped me feel so much calmer, less reactive, more present. It all sounds like huge claims, but I just say, please, please, please try it if you're struggling with stress or overwhelm.

You've just got to give it a go. And the lovely thing is that everyone listening can definitely try it themselves. Exactly. So you can get a 30-day free trial, so just try it every day for a month. It'll change your life. All you do is head to the way app.com forward slash wellness scoop. Yeah, that's thewayapp.com forward slash wellness scoop. Welcome to the Wellness Scoop, your weekly dose of health and wellness inspiration

hosted by us. I'm Ella Mills. And I'm Rihanna Lambert. And after a decade in the wellness industry, we know that it can be very overwhelming, confusing. And that's why we're here with our podcast to cut through the noise and make healthier living, simple, fun and personal. So Ella, what have you been up to? Yeah, we are, gosh, like five weeks into the school holidays now.

I feel like it is that kind of middle of summer. I'm not really sure what day it is, what time it is, if I'm the right way up or not. But no, things are good. I mean, it's that bizarre feeling that I bet most of us have been having over the last few weeks where, like, I am loving this weather. We're having so much fun outside, picnics, playing outside all day. but also equally so alarmed by it the grass is so crispy

it sounds like you're standing on like crunchy packets of something it's just nuts anyway but really some of my garden destroyed by it like kale and caviloneira and things like that which I was quite soised about literally burnt to a crisp but then other things gone nuts like I planted some cucumbers outside

honestly I didn't have like huge hope for them I just had a few extra seeds so I did one in the greenhouse but I had two more. So you should planted them outside to see what happens. I had been away for five days and I had 12 cucumbers to harvest. I mean, it's absolutely insane. I think I've got like a hundred quagettes. They're just going bananas squashes. So many squashes already. I mean, tomatoes anyway, it's absolutely nuts. But I am having, that is my main thing. I've never grown anything before in my life. And as I said, some things haven't worked. I found like salad leaves type produce really hard. But, I've got my first cut flowers. I grew some cosmos, some dahlias, and I was catching them yesterday and put them in a bar. And I honestly, so in the proudest moments. Anyway, it's been really fun.

So that's really how I am. That's so positive. Do you know, I think it's really, really nice. There's two things there to reflect on from that. The fact that anybody can start. But the second thing is obviously the fact that we are having unprecedented weather. I feel like I want to do like some kind of like rain dance ritual. I'm just desperate for it to rain for everybody.

It's absolutely crazy. We know and we probably, I don't know, it might be headlines that we are going to have to cover in the coming year, but we're probably going to be seeing a massive impact on food chain supplies. So this will come up, I'm sure. Yeah, I think it will. We've already seen some things about how some crops actually bananas. I saw a headline about. So we'll have a look at all of that because I think it will certainly be affected because so much of what we eat in the UK doesn't actually come from the UK, unfortunately,

and so many other countries have actually been worse affected by these various different changes in climate anyway. It's, you know, the other thing, though, that I was thinking yesterday when I was in the garden, I also just kind of for personal curiosity, planted different types of things. So I did like a yellow corgette plant, a kind of striped corgette plant, and then just your normal green corgette plan or zucchini for our American friends. And that's so cool because that's three different plants for my 30. and I've been enjoying that. Oh, she's in her plant point game, which I absolutely love. Ella, I feel like it's a very unusual time, like you've said,

but it's been incredibly busy and manic. And if we move on to the health headlines that matter today, we're talking about cost, aren't we? We are talking about cost, unsurprisingly, given what a huge kind of economic wave, tumble, whatever you want to call it, we've ridden over the last few years. It's not shocking that these are big headlines at the moment,

but there are a lot of headlines about cost and diet at the moment. I think the big one, I'm pretty sure we actually mentioned it as a top line last week, is a huge report that's just come out of the UN showing that one in three people around the world cannot afford to eat a healthy diet. Absolutely. Now, I think what's really staggering here is that's around 2.7 billion people that still can't afford a healthy diet. And I think we have to really remember

when we're discussing this, that we need to get rid of that old, you know, I've had misconception that you can eat healthfully on a budget because it did used to be like that. It really did. Cost of living. It used to be that we could calculate at universities

that if you cooked everything from scratch, you can eat well, but it's just not as simple today. And global hunger, a positive thing is that global hunger has fallen, yet costs have gone up. So hunger does not equate to the health status of what you're eating. And I think we have to remember this as well, that while we can feed more people, potentially, are we feeding them the right things? Yeah, exactly. I think that's what's really interesting

as there's this strained contradiction at play. So it's actually the third year in the row that global hunger has fallen. Obviously, that's inherently such a positive thing. And I don't want to, or neither us would want to detract from there. But it's interesting. because there's new report and it was collated by five different agencies within the UN and that includes the World Health Organization. What that shows is that whilst obviously that's inherently positive, as we said, simply having enough calories is not the same as access to nutritious food. And it is this sort of strange world that we live in in that sense.

Anyway, I think we need to just sort of break it down a little bit more and talk about and get you if you can answering this question. Like, it probably is fair to say now that healthy eating is too expensive, right? Yeah. I mean, there's two stories just to summarize. So on average, the UN has estimated that the equivalent of 4.28 international dollars per person per day is above the international poverty threshold. So in many countries for people, if you put this, you know, more simply, we just don't have the income or access. I think we have to discuss access just as much as money here.

You know, where you live, there are areas that are described as food deserts in some places. You know, it depends. You know, not everyone has a garden where they can grow fresh produce. Not everybody has access to supermarkets and different places. And I think it's really, really important that we discuss income and access together. But then there's the second conversation about what does this actually mean for us in countries in the UK. And what we also now need to factor in is climate change and what we've discussed at the beginning of this podcast. So let's not oversimplify it too much, but yes, food prices have increased dramatically.

It does absolutely impact families. But I also think there's a confusing topic, Ella, because healthy eating doesn't have to mean you have to buy everything organic or wellness. And I think that's also something that applies perhaps to the Wellness Group podcast in particular here is that you do not have to buy exotic foods. You do not have to buy avocados to be healthy. and that's such a cliche wellness food, I suppose. I mean, it shouldn't be. It's just a beautiful fruit, but it's important. And you don't have to eat pomegranates to be healthy and have glowing skin.

Yet, you know, we forget about the humble peas and carrots and potatoes. Sadly, we'll probably get shortages of this year. You know, we forget about all the simple foods in our cupboards, the oats that have been demonized online unfairly that shouldn't be, which are the most cost-effective way to. feed your family in the morning if you buy in bulk. I mean, you can do so many overnight oat dishes, porridge, pancakes,

so bread, recipes with oats, beans, pulses. And I just think it's so important that we don't lose sight of that. Yeah, I think that's such an interesting point, actually, because as you said, so the cost now of a healthy diet on average across the world is 4.28 international dollars per person per day. But that doesn't necessarily equate to exactly what it costs in the UK.

what we know and we've seen from the Food Foundation reports, etc, the broken plate we've seen over the last few years is it's now clear that healthy eating is out of reach, unfortunately for certain people even within this country. And interestingly, like I was reading, the Wellness Scoop inbox last night, and we had a lovely listener who's based up in quite rural Scotland. And she was saying, you know, it's really difficult

because she's got two very small supermarkets near her, Tesco's and the same sprees. And what she's saying is like the amount of fresh produce in those shops, is so, so tiny versus, you know, all sorts of rubbish, basically. You know, you can't get an online delivery service like an Accado or something like that. And so actually there isn't this huge amount of choice, which actually if you live in London or the surrounding areas you do see, which is interesting. But then there's also the issue of players you said, which is that what healthy is now

equated to things that are inherently more expensive and kind of more, glossy or aesthetic or TikToky or whatever it is. And actually, TikToky. TikToky. Just made me talk on. But it's true. But exactly where it's actually like a humongous bag of like dried red lentils is

incredibly cost effective and incredibly nutritious. And you can make a huge, you know, huge pot of doll or something like that. And can be really quite cost effective. But, you know, A, it requires time. B, it requires confidence. in the kitchen and see it really isn't, I don't think, what we equate top of mind with healthy. When we think healthy, we do kind of think wellness world, Gwyneth Poutreau, powders, rainbow bowls, exotic fruits, influences in Bali.

In bras, sports bras and gym equipment or in their kitchen doing what I eat in a day. The cost of all of that is very different, isn't it? It is. I think you summarised it beautifully. And that's what I love about the wellness scoopers. We'll keep trying to bring it back to base. that some of the healthiest meals like Ella said are made with your lentils, your pulses, your beans, your produce that you have at home.

You do not need to be eating all of these powders, potions, exotic things in your diet. It is literally, well, what's the old saying that there was like meat and two veg or, you know, there was like a saying, like, but it could be like beans and two veg. Anyone please, our brains are clearly frazzled this morning. Please send over what these old sayings are. Hook a gal up. But no, what's interesting as well is so we're moving house in two weeks a week after this episode comes out. And I'm therefore really trying not to buy lots of new things and actually cook with,

because it's obviously just unnecessary to pack up things and move them from one house or another if we could just eat them in the next couple of weeks. And so I'm trying hard not to kind of really buy a huge amount over the next couple of weeks. Obviously, I'll buy bananas and apples and stuff for the kids. But otherwise, like make our main meals from bits. I have in the cupboard. Freezer stash, Ella. Exactly.

And it's, you know, I just have like, you know, I don't know, yesterday for lunch, I just found a pack of old Orzo and I had literally like, I don't know, 15% of the pack left. But I was like, great, this is just wasteful if I don't use this. And I made from the freezer, I had edamame, I had some leftover pasto. I had this Orzo. And I just did a really simple edamame and Orzo salad. It was delicious. But it did make me think as well.

I think probably collectively we're not always amazing at being creative. We're always like, oh, it's the newness thing, isn't it? Like, oh, I'm going to make this recipe, but actually we often have really good ideas at the back of the cupboard. And there's one more thing I would say totally separate to the headline, but I guess on the back of using your cupboard. I know we have lots of people listening who will be looking after children over the summer holidays. cooking three meals a day for children over summer holidays is exhausting, I think it's fair to say. Even packing lunchboxes Ella for camps is exhausting every single day. And having ideas for it. And the one thing I would say as well, I said this to myself the other day.

And if it's helpful for anyone, this goes for adults though as well, like and feeding ourselves. I think also sometimes they take the pressure off to this whole point of meals not having to be perfect. Like we've done loads of, so it's hot, like picky bits. You know, the girls really like hot chocolate and, you know, they drink milks or do like whole milk with dark chocolate, hot chocolate. They had crackers with peanut butter on them. They had fruit. They had some dried mango. It's some seaweed.

They thought it was like the best dinner ever. And actually, like, if I broke it down, it was like, it's actually still quite nutritious. There was no washing up. There was no effort. Anyway, I think some things we put a lot. of pressure on ourselves to keep pulling rabbits out of hats when it comes to eating well and looking after ourselves. And actually, you know what? Remember, like toast with a topper is a great meal. Even just getting a can of baked beans out sometimes. If that's what you've got in your

cupboard, just put some cucumber sticks next to it alongside the toast or something. It's all about those picnicy items and not everything has to be a gourmet home-cooked meal and a big one-pot dish, not every single day. Thank you for reminding us about that, Alex. I feel like it you know, it can become, you just have this guilt feeling. Yeah, I think we often feel like we've got to do it all perfectly. And you just don't. No, we really don't. Which moves us on to headline too.

Could better health be the UK's best economic investment? Now, I actually think this is something that we try to talk about a lot on the podcast, but preventative measures are very difficult at the moment with current climate. but restoring Britain's health to the levels that we saw back in 2014 could add 2% to GDP, and that's according to Think Tank. Now, the Health Foundation paper argues that health is an economic asset, which we know and improving it could generate Ella $72 billion for public finances. Yeah, it's so interesting this.

And obviously, like, it's an interesting one I always think, right, for us on this show, which is like, I am a big believer within reason. bear with me, guys, of like, stay in your lane, you know, as in like, be, be an expert in what you are an expert in and leave other things for the people. But with health, there are, you know, there's always the lane next to you. And the reality is, as there isn't anything, the reality is the cost of health has such a huge impact on us all. And so not looking after ourselves obviously has an impact on us, but it doesn't just have an impact on us, has an impact on everybody and the taxes we pay and the access to health care that everyone's

able to get. And so I do think it's really, really interesting when you look at this. And what I think is particularly interesting is they're just comparing the health of the UK today to health of 2014. So we're only talking about 12, 12 and a half years ago. But if we could revert back to our health in 2014 versus today, that could increase GDP by around 2%. So this is actually. This is adding tens and tens of billions in economic output, which is absolutely extraordinary. I mean, how have we gone wrong in 10, 12 years? I mean, well, I know how we've gone wrong. It's just the fact that I just do not feel like there is enough focus on it. And I understand there's constant battles in different areas. COVID happened.

And then people talked about Brexit in this country. And now we're looking at climate change. And there's in so many other priorities. But I just feel like it gets pushed to the bottom. It gets spoken about and then push down further and further down the priority list. Whereas you're right, Ella, all of our health impacts us as we age. And also we know that we don't have a large population to follow suit. So the younger generation's birth rates are also declining massively for a variety of reasons. We're not going to have a population that can support the elderly population at some point too. It's a big...

Yeah, it's a huge topic. And there is just this kind of fundamental issue here that I think we often, as a collective, I don't mean as any of us as individuals, but as a collective don't, I think in some ways want to be honest about, which is the reality of the fact that how we eat and our collective lifestyles has a huge impact on our health. And what we have seen in that time, as we know, as we've talked about, is the UK is one of the only countries in the Western world where our health span has declined. And during this period, this 12 years, we're talking about the number of working age adults who are living with long-term health conditions has increased from 11.7 million to 15.7 million. And that is, again, we talk about this often, but like that is alarm bells. And that is also huge sympathy to each and every one of those people who are suffering.

But equally, like, we have, we have just got to turn the tide when it comes to our health. And I think it's so interesting because then you have this pushback from people. don't regulate industries, don't be in an in any state, don't tell people what to do. But equally, it's a really interesting dilemma because I also think we should look after ourselves and look after each other, as we always talk about and as we just talked about a second ago, when the environment we live in is the abysogenic environment that people talk about where UPFs are absolutely everywhere, where it's incredibly difficult and expensive to access proper food, it becomes incredibly difficult not to over time develop these health conditions because

they are inherently linked to our lifestyle and to our diet. So there are many different facets that would normally hold people accountable that we now lack in this country. You've got the food culture, which we no longer have, which we know we have sort of lost. Some cultures in the world have strong family values around food, you know, different cultural celebrations around food. They just respect. nutrition and diet in a very different way and the way they live their lives. We lack that here. We also, I mean, that in the UK, we have lots of different religions and we all cohabit beautifully and peacefully, hopefully most of the time, forever and always. But what happens here is that we all

share different food values. We share different life values. And without a sort of nanny state, there is no one kind of overarching almost, I don't want to use the word rule, but guide to abide too because healthy living is no longer seen as a necessity whereas you know decades ago we had more food poverty food was more scarce it was really seen as a luxury i feel we just look at food in such a different way now because of convenience food there's so many elements i want to go into here because i think it really stems into the psychosocial aspect of our food world how we view the world of food how we grow up with food how we respect it how we respect movement lifestyle and our health and also our self-esteem.

Our mental health plays a massive role here, Ella, because we have low mental health rates now. I actually have an incredible clip that I'm going to play to you, probably this Thursday on the extra scoop, so remind me to come back to this, because it was the most amazing speech, and I really feel that we should play it. But the fact that we could generate $72 billion

to public finances if we just returned to what we did in 2014. When we weren't necessarily the picture of health. It was just before social media, though. Do you see what I mean? Social media ruined it. The thing is, the impact on our mental health year has been absolutely cataclysmic. Anyway, it's so interesting. Someone actually really told me off on this on our email inbox for repeating myself. So I apologize for this. But I'm going to repeat myself again here, just to add on to it one more time, which is that I've been talking about doing this screen free summer too much. So I apologize to that person. But I have been just for, finding it the most interesting exercise because the more that we kind of really zone in on these things, the more, I guess you notice people around you. And like, we're five weeks into it now, and I'm going to say my kid's behavior is unrecognizable. Absolutely unrecognizable. And equally, we were on holiday for a few days this week. And I was watching, and I don't say this

with judgment because I know this is the norm. And I know it can be overwhelming and over stimulating, parenting children and there are specific reasons that parents need to use this. So I understand I'm just talking about as a general norm. But we're sitting by the pool and there were three children and a family, very similar age to my children. And they were all on their own screen. And I just was thinking, I'm not talking about them specifically. I'm just talking about a generation of people. If you can't be entertained sitting by a pool, which was a super busy pool as well,

it's like lots to watch and, you know, lots going on with two siblings, and you and your parents in a new place with a swimming pool on holiday like if you can't be stimulated then are we setting up a generation of people who could never be interested in entertained like if that is

so boring you need a screen like what is fun and that really like I'd be really stuck on that where like if we can't and I'm not talking about an aeroplane or like a long journey where like you are stuck in a seat for a long time it's very different but like I was walking around the park

in London the other day and you've got all these babies watching a screen. I'm like, isn't the duck in the pond and the people on the path and the bicycles and the other children? Like, isn't that the entertainment? Like, if you can't be entertained, then, like, and I just honestly, I keep looking at it. I'm like, what kind of generation are we going to have? I think we're learning that that's exactly the issue. And also, I don't think parent, well, this is a whole other topic, but having the confidence to realize, like you said, the duck is enough. And I, I, obviously completely agree. My bug bear from my area is food and screens. You know, I'm saying it to adults just as much to children in clinic. Every time they come in the retreatition clinic,

are you eating lunch with your laptop on? You are breaking those digestive signals. You know, you're not absorbing the food effectively. And I think we've all realized, it's interesting in my local David Lloyd, it was one of my bug bears. I really couldn't stand it. They had screens in the kids' soft play area, all these tablets, like lined up in the corner. And I've never let my kids go on because I've always been a bit strict. Well, I've always been very strict on screens. I've never really let them play with them. But my boys would always be so upset. Why can't I go and sit over there? And I was always the parent that said no. And now, last week, they took them away. They've just vanished Ella. And I'm wondering if it's because of this new ban and they're realizing

finally, hey, we're a health and fitness company. Why are we putting screens in the kids soft play? Oh my gosh, if anyone listening works with David Lloyd, let us know because that is so interesting. Okay, so I find that there's a coffee headline probably every month, but one that rears its head every few months that's quite a big topic that Ella and I can dive into. Yeah, this really made me laugh, actually, when I saw it, I think if this really makes me laugh, it sounds like I don't have much going on in my life. It's more just that people love a coffee headline. Anyway, this one said five cups of coffee a day. is safe, heart experts

weigh in. And I was like, five cups of coffee is, I love coffee, you guys probably know this for now, but five cups of coffee it is quite a lot, but it probably made a lot of people very, very happy. Anyway, Re, tell us what was happening here. This was

a new statement, right, from the American Heart Association. Look, can I first of all just say, most portion sizes of cups of coffee are about three and one. If you go to a Starbucks, even if you order a small, you've probably had more than what they are classifying as an average cup of coffee. Could we just remember that there's a lot of nuance behind these?

Now, I understand why cardiologists aren't trained in nutrition, but would potentially say this, because, of course, you know, moderate coffee consumption, I use the word moderate as associated with good cardiovascular outcomes. So, right, the stats here are that after looking at all of the research, they concluded that 400 milligrams of caffeine a day is the safe amount. Now, in pregnancy, and I know this obviously at the moment, being pregnant, you can have up to 200 milligrams of coffee a day, which is usually one cup for most average people,

one cup, maybe one and a half. They say 400 milligrams is roughly 4 to 5 small 8 ounce cups of coffee. Now, to most adults, you're probably having two cups and you're going to be making 400 depending on the barista. So I find this a really deceptive headline. I just want to caveat by saying that. So just to conclude, if I understand correctly, really, what we're saying here, the headlines all said five cups.

Most people are like, yes, I can feed my coffee addiction. But really, if you actually break it down with the amount of caffeine that we're considering in terms of the scientific statement made by the American Heart Association, what we're actually talking about for the majority of adults, is two, possibly three, but it's not really five cups because no one drinks coffee that small. Yeah, and if you're buying your coffee, it's like 40 quid a day on coffee. So let's just have a think about what we're doing here. Look, it's associated. Let's use the word associated.

Imagine seeing that on a piece of paper underline. That doesn't mean concretely concludes it's good for you. It's associated with a lower risk. So a lower risk is good. Of cardiovascular disease, stroke, heart failure and type 2 diabetes. but that doesn't then make coffee a panacea against how you're living your life. If you're already highly stressed, working in an environment where your cortisol's raised consistently, summer holidays, you're probably just stressed because you're parenting or it's very hot

and the heat wave stressing you out, especially for women in this weather. The heat and the caffeine is also a bit of a concern. We know that women's struggle more than men in the heat. So just having those extra cups of coffees probably isn't going to lower your risk if you're already not acting. living a lifestyle that already supports this. The science comes from the polyphenols, Ellis. So it comes from the actual coffee bean itself, also the quality of the coffee here,

also dictates the outcome. So all the bioactive compounds, they have the anti-inflammatory properties, and they support our blood vessels. And also coffee helps vasodilate our blood vessels. So actually, if you're already stressed, you're helping an inflammatory response sometimes that you don't want. I really think it's really important to remember that how we individually react to coffee also matters here.

Some people are really sensitive. Obviously, it can increase chance of miscarriage in pregnancy. I actually advise if you're trying for a baby or you're getting frequent miscarriages and you're going through that awful period in your life, caffeine's definitely not recommended because it can increase the risk of those sorts of things. for some people, anxiety, palpitations, reflux. So as much as I'm all for coffee drinkers having their usual one or two cups a day, you can tell, you can hear it. I'm so concerned when I see these headlines. So like, go on everyone.

It's like saying, oh, that Mars bar is great for you. Let's just have five, whereas one is probably really good if it's what you fancied and made you feel happy. And it really, the endorphins you had from feeling happy and allowing yourself an enjoyed item is great. But actually, when you start to have more, more than just that one, it really is counterintuitive. That was a bad example using a Mars bar, sorry. No, but that was such a helpful breakdown of the headline because I think what it does

says, if you enjoy coffee, you know, your two cups that you enjoy each day, actually, if, you know, as part of a general balanced diet, as you said, it's not panacea, actually are potentially quite health-enhancing and you should feel great about drinking them and they're inherently very positive, but five cups is a little bit of a misnomer and slightly misleading headline. We have so much to talk about what's trending today. So I'm really excited. We've got there a little bit quicker than normal. So we're just a little pumped to be here.

Okay, Rhee, should we talk about why bananas in our smoothies are going to kill us? Or should we talk about two meals a day? Which one first? Let's do the smoothie because we could play the Instagram clip. So I just want you all to hear exactly what has been said about bananas. So this was a clip from a guest on the Mel Robbins podcast. It went viral. It's going to keep going viral.

But interestingly, on this, so I was, I was looking it up yesterday, ahead of talking to you today, and I was watching. And the thing that's so interesting is the original clip with this woman and Mel Robbins has around one million views. This is on Instagram, on TikToky. I'm not so sure. But interestingly, you know how you can now like respond to something. You know, you see those clips where it's like the original video and then ahead talking about it. Such a copy of TikToky, isn't it? That's what I was going to do. Do you remember? and I said, I don't want to get into bashing. I'd rather educate in a different way. Yeah. And we'll do it here. So thank you for that as well. For all of us. Anyways, but the interesting thing is, all of people's responses to it have made it go so much more viral.

And so, like, there was a response to it that I was watching, which has had over three million views. So this has gone very viral. I'm sure lots of you seen it. It's all about what happens when you put a banana in a smoothie. One thing I do not add to my smoothie is a banana. Uh-oh. I used to put them in my smoothie. these. Dr. Patrick, what happens when you put a banana in a smoothie? What happens is there's a,

there's something in the banana called polyphenol oxidase. That doesn't sound good. Doesn't sound good. Polyphenols are what I just said are beneficial. Yes. Oxidase, polyphenol oxidase is essentially an enzyme that's breaking down the polyphenols. And there have now been studies that have come out showing if you add bananas to blueberries, you're not getting as many polyphenols. In fact, it's quite a bit lower. So the banana, is killing the benefit of the... See, this is why I need you, because I am sitting here making smoothies

thinking I like the texture of the banana in it. It gives a little heft, creams it out a little bit. But then I'm putting in my blueberries and I just blew it because the banana canceled the blueberries. It's true. I also used to add it to my blueberries

for the exact reason, plus the taste. If you go to any smoothie place, you'll see they always add bananas to any blueberry smoothies. Yes, of course. But that's where the avocado comes in. Because now you're going to get the creamy texture that you want,

which is what I also want. Yes. And on top of that, there have been studies showing that the fat, so this mono-unsaturated fat in this avocado, it actually increases the bioavailability of the lutein and another carotenoid called zanthan in the kale by fourfold. Right. Over to you. I mean, the idea polyphenol oxidase and bananas

is going to break down the polyphenols of blueberries, and then you're going to reduce the amount of polyphenols. And I think they said, didn't they? I just blew it up because the banana cancels the blueberries, the banana reduces the benefits. What is going on? What's true? What's not true?

I don't think any of it's true, is it? Well, before I move on to the science behind the banana and the blueberry, I just want to say I thought this was one of the most silly, unprocessed, thought process of anybody to conduct. an interview, for any scientists of this caliber to deliver a public health statement so sweepingly, it was just a really silly thing to say and do. It's just as pointless. Why? Why bring up this actual tiny study that doesn't actually have the outcome? It blew my mind, Ella, to think that somebody on that, you know, the Mal Robbins podcast, how many listens does

that get? I mean, it's huge, right? But for any. any nutrition or scientists or anyone of an interest in nutrition, I find it really irresponsible, which was firstly probably why I never go viral on Instagram. It was anything that stupid. What I was actually trying to find for you, which I thought was so interesting before we get into the internet out of it, was there something I sent you last night, which was another response to it. And actually, I thought this was really, really good.

This was from a nutrition PhD doctor on Instagram. And he was saying, if you don't. don't eat at least 30 grams of fiber per day, you probably shouldn't be worried about combining bananas and blueberries. If you drink alcohol several times a week, you probably shouldn't be worried about combining blueberries and bananas. If you don't eat at least three servings of fruit each day, you should probably not be worried about combining blueberries and bananas if you get under 6,000 steps. If 50% of your calories come from nutrient poor ultra-processed foods, if you have a 400 calorie coffee with 30 grams of sugar for breakfast. Which is 96% of the population,

because 96% don't get enough fibre. So all of those things, and I thought it was really interesting. And then we'll go into ins and outs now of why this was obviously complete nonsense. But I think that this actually, that post, really contextualised it for me, which is like, it's honestly the idea that for the vast majority of people who don't get their fibre who don't eat enough fibre, who are lacking in general kind of health and wellness building blocks that we all need, this is just the last thing you should. should be worried about. In a cost of living crisis and the world is literally on fire, it definitely

is the last thing we should be worried about. So research has compared smoothies that contained ingredients with high what we call polyphenol oxidase. So we call it PPO activity, Papa, Papa, Oscar activity of a banana versus the PPO of the smoothies overall. And they measured the flavanols and the blood after you consumed it. So first of all, no one really does that. You don't have a smoothie and then measure what's in your blood. They found substantially lower circulating flavanols

when you had the banana in the smoothie. But look, they weren't measuring the overall health outcome like the impact of that smoothie on your brain function, your memory or disease risk. They were just measuring one group of compounds in the bloodstream after a single meal. And also it's really, really important to... This is going to make you laugh.

There were eight people in this study, Ella. There were eight men right. And also, as you said, it was looking at one type of antioxins. There are loads and loads in there. So it's just, this is what we always say, though, isn't it? Is that complete misinformation stems from somewhere. And it doesn't mean that she was wrong. So it's nonsense, but it's not nonsense. Exactly. Yeah, it doesn't mean the doctor was wrong, but it definitely, she shouldn't have even brought it up. It was just so, so unrelatable. It was also funded, I think it's important to say, that one. teeny tiny study of almost no people where you're looking at a single anti-oxygen

as opposed to the whole was also funded by a very large conglomerate who sell very unhealthy food. So I think that when you put the whole thing together it's nonsense but I also think so first of all if you've seen that please don't worry if you put blueberries and bananas together in a smoothie. I just did it

about 20 minutes ago. Yeah so it doesn't cancel out the positive benefits. Let's just say what it does contains. People don't you know blueberries have so many flavanols. They, also, vitamin C, fibre, the amphicinides, please remember that like the purple pigments, they're really good for brain health. And also, cost of living crisis, many people aren't getting enough of these anyways. If you can add them in, I want you to, manganese, other polyphenols, you know, and bananas also contain their own. Bananas also can contain

resistant starch through or gut health if they're a little bit greener. They've got their own polyphenols, including dopamine in different areas. You know, we don't talk about. this enough and I think bananas actually unless you were that weird account years ago on Instagram that was obsessed with them I think bananas are... Oh my God, those people who'd eat like 20 bananas for one single meal. That was mad but I think bananas are demonised because I feel like people only see them as something tennis players eat before a tennis match

and I think people forget they contain you know, fibre B6, potassium, all sorts of useful nutrients. I also think it makes me that's really yummy. And I would say, you know what? Where like I feel wellness goes mad is people are like, it's just the same with an avocado in. No, it's not. Oh, that's what she tried to say.

So everyone, she said, so what I do, I replace the banana with an avocado, an expensive avocado because that- But avocados aren't sweet. Bananas is sweet. So yes, an avocado is creamy. But first of all, I actually think, and I have, you know, at peak wellness,

but avocados and smoothies, I wouldn't do it again. I think it's a bit of a waste. I don't think it tastes good. I still put a little bit in sometimes. I just love eating them. So I'm like, it's not like I'm lacking in that food group, if you know what I mean. Anyways, yeah. So if you've seen that, it's nonsense, but it's also the best example of misinformation to me,

which is that she did cite a study. It's absolutely correct. It's just when you really look at the study, it's lacking context. It's lacking nuance. The funding is important. The whole thing is like, so it's not inherently wrong, but actually to most people's lives is completely wrong. I also think it's a classic example of health professionals. You know, you said the lanes can be blurred of staying in your lane.

It's a really good example of I am on a public health platform delivering a message. I need to stay in my lane here and actually remember who I'm speaking to. And it was incredibly unhelpful. And it will have triggered lots of people with disorders. eating as well. We must remember that aspect. And lots of people jump on things for clicks and likes, which we'll talk about in a minute. It's always why I'm so disappointed in the nutrition community online in general. I think there's a massive lack of compassion and empathy. But spreading dangerous messages like this, because it can be dangerous for some people,

and I think that's also forgotten about. Yeah, I totally, totally agree. We actually mentioned this the other day, and again, totally off topic, but very interesting, rhetoric online on Ariana a grand date and yeah i sent it to you last night it was yeah it's extraordinary anyways um if interesting to delve deeper into that we we can do that another day but um let's talk about more things taken out of context today in our trending which is tim specter completely viral and people very cross and again interesting when you see the context accused of um being inherently negative for recommending two meals a day so there's a clip that that Tim had, what it was called, a big thinkers or something, he was obviously asked the question,

what is the evidence and research that supports two meals a day? And then he just answered it. But because the clip was made on Instagram, it was edited as if to suggest he was giving information saying that everybody in the public should be on two meals a day, which is not what he said. It's so interesting. And by the way, this is just our personal opinion. This is not influenced by him or, you know, anything. But it was so interesting to see. So I saw lots of like, oh, M.G. Can you believe Tim Specter's telling us all to eat two meals today?

This is so bad. And so he went and watched the clip. And if you actually watch the clip, what he's asked about is kind of main meals versus grazing. And essentially what he's talking about is, again, the microbiome and our gut health. And what he says is that constant grazing is not what our microbiome likes. So I think they used to be this idea, didn't there, of like mini meals all day. But actually what we've learned since is that our, and this is exactly what he's saying in the clip, that our microbiomes have their own circadian rhythm, you know, the various different organisms in there,

they go to sleep and they need time to repair the gut while you're asleep. So if you're having late night snacks, as we often talk about here, or you're constantly grazing all day, you're not getting the time that your microbes actually need to clean up your gut, especially the gut lining, where the immune barrier is. This is exactly what he says in the clip. And the healthier your gut lining is, the healthier you are. And that's the basis of time restricted eating. So then he goes on to say that for people wanting to give that a go to support their gut health, you can start with some simple rules. He says this is the first part, i.e. don't eat for two hours before bed.

Or you could extend that to 12 hours overnight. if that's comfortable for you. Then he says after that, some people do well with two main meals a day, maybe combining breakfast and lunch, and basically that actually realizing that three meals a day, three snack events actually comes from the food industry,

what we should do is try and have moments of each day and each night where we give our gut a rest. That's what he says. So when you watch all of that, it doesn't sound like he's promoted disorders eating in the site. No, but this is enough example. This is why these two trendy clips link really nicely this week, because it's an example. The first example was irresponsible from the doctor giving and choosing to discuss this,

whereas Tim was asked a question about an area of science he actively researches and explores and has looked at thoroughly and intensively. And I feel like there's almost this nutrition army and health professional army that cannot wait to, you know, take people down. take people down and get traction on a video and post about it. And do you know what's awful? It's that whenever I seem to give this kind of response, I also get almost trolled in response for defending people. I would not defend anybody that said everyone needs to do two meals a day. It's nonsense. Of course they don't. That's not what he's not what he said. And people don't take the time. And it really, it's infuriating, Ella, because they're just desperate for clicks, likes to sell whatever they want to sell.

on their page and promote things. And they almost want to believe the bad in everything. I find it absolutely astounding. You can go and listen to the clip. The other thing that's really challenging, I think, interesting to hear what you think on this, really and curious everyone listening, is that obviously for the vast majority of people,

and, you know, this show is a good example of that, as much as that clip is a good example of that. We can only give broad spectrum advice, Like we are here talking about, you know, coffee for, you know, your average healthy adult. We cannot specifically delve into the nuances that exist for all of us as individuals, our life stage, our various different component parts that input into our history and whether certain things would affect us or not affect us as a result. And I think what I find difficult is then sometimes in something like this,

where actually he's giving pretty good general advice about looking after your microbiome, People are like, well, that's not healthy if you had disordered eating. But he's speaking to a general population here. And we have to be able, I believe, to speak to general population without taking everything as a personal issue. Do you know what's so hard, Ella, is that a lot of these, right, first of all, I'm reading comments now. Someone has said, no, F you, Tim, I want three meals a day in snacks. I'm not in war. I mean, some of these comments are unbelievably disgusting and outrageous.

And what you've just said, Ella, I completely and utterly agree. And I think what's so interesting is you, when you're a scientist, it's very difficult to become a media savvy interviewee. And I'm not excusing it. And perhaps there is a way of always cab. Otherwise, you end up caveatting everything you say. So when I'm giving interviews. You don't say anything. You're just pointless.

Yeah. I'm constantly having to say, well, research suggests this. but actually it doesn't apply to the general public every single day. We're all unique. And, you know, when clips are made on social media, that is taken out. No one keeps that nuance in. But it's this interesting thing, right? And I think this is an interesting place to kind of end the episode, actually, if I think

about it. Because what we talked about at the beginning is that we have this, like, as we all know, but more and more evidence every day. This fundamental health crisis in the UK where over the last just 12 years, we have had such a significant reduction in our health that by just returning to 2014, we could add over 70 billion back to the economy. We now have an additional 4 million adults out of work as a result of this. It's huge. And so we do need strong advice. We need strong, clear health advice as a general population in order to genuinely turn the tide. And if every time people give

clear advice on what we need to do, they have to caveat it with a thousand and one asterisk to make it relevant to each individual person. There is no good health advice out there. And I think this is a great example. We now know we shouldn't grace. You might want to grace, but it's not the right thing for your gut help. I know you might not like it. But for the vast majority of adults,

constant grazing is not good for your microbiome. Eating to your full bed is not good for your microbiome. You might not like it. That doesn't mean it's not true. And I know I sound really bossy as my children always say. but like I think we have to get comfortable with hearing things we don't like. No, we do. We absolutely do.

And I think this is where there's these camps and pockets on the internet that forget this, that it's you can't possibly talk to every single person in the country. You can't respect eating disorders all the time. You can't respect. It's like, I've just seen another clip he put up that went viral, Ella, that didn't go as big as this one. And it's what's been put on the title is different to what's said again. It says, why you should only buy or get. Oats. He's actually raising a really valid point, the Soar Association raise, about the amount

of glyphosphate pre-harvest that we use to dry things out in this country. And we're just trying to get things changed environmentally in terms of pesticides. It doesn't make them harmful. But once again, it's been blown out of proportion because the title says, why you, it says you, why you should buy organic oats. And the title on the other video is try eating two males per day. But he didn't say that at all. And like you've said, it's social media pushing things out and it just gets to get a reaction from everybody. And you're right, we can't caveat everything. But we are in a moment where like we need strong and clear health advice. And if we have to caveat, and I don't mean it in a cruel way. I just mean like take screens as we talked about earlier, take, you know, UPFs and supermarkets.

Like there will always be people to whom this advice isn't right. Of course there will. And that needs to be absolutely respected with huge compassion. But for the vast majority of people, we have to be able to have clear, strong messaging in order to actually make a tangible difference that we desperately need as a country for a whole multitude of different reasons. And that's what I think so interesting. But then on the flip side, we now have people who won't ever put banana in a smoothie ever again or eat a banana and a bloomer in the same meal. So it's an incredibly difficult job for nutrition professionals like myself at the moment, navigate. the online space and navigating health messaging and public health messaging.

But you're right. I think from a high level in this country when it comes to dictating policies and all sorts of things, we do need to be stronger. And this whole nanny state argument, I find it really difficult. Like I said, people need guidance. And I think these two clips are perfect examples of what makes the online world such an absolute head F to navigate. I totally agree.

and why we're so glad to have this show. It's so funny. I couldn't wait to log on this morning. I know we like say it a lot, but we just really appreciate you guys. It's such, we just love being able to do this. We love that you love listening. It's such a great space.

Like I just, I just really, really love the wellness scoop. I really appreciate it. It's like the best thing that's happened to me, workwise in so long. And I'm just so grateful that you guys are enjoying it so much. So thank you. that is it. It's the best thing to happen to us, I'd say work-wise, in a very long time. It's so meaningful. When I said me, I just couldn't speak for you in there. No, I know she couldn't.

That's why I've popped in. Like, Rhee, you must say it's the best thing ever happened to. No, no, she'd never do that to me. I know you never would, but I want to reiterate. But we are incredibly, incredibly grateful. It's honestly an honour. And that's why we want, we want to record all the time. I actually had, just before we say goodbye, quite a few messages. and I know Ella has as well, and I'm sure they're in the inbox of, are we continuing the podcast when Ree has a baby? Of course we are. How else am I going to be happy every week? And when I'm so sleep deprived, obviously I love my little baby, but the wellness group is continuing. And I'm not under any pressure. Ella would never, ever make me do something that I don't want to do. I genuinely

want to keep showing up here because it's our favourite place. I promise, I have said to her so many times, I don't mind if you want to pause. But also, Ray, I don't want to. speak for you in this bit and you can you can tell me to be quiet but you know I've done it and lots of listeners have done it also when you're self-employed it isn't straightforward maternity and I think that's an important note to say I know we both really love doing this and you love doing it so you also want to do it because it's a really lovely part of your week and and I kind of I just love that for you us for all our listeners but it's also I think it's a fair and important piece of transparency like when you are self-employed, taking like a long maternity in every part of your job, it's not really an

option. It's really difficult. And there's, as we all know in this country, which is why birth rates are declining, it's really difficult to have children now and be supported. And if you're self-employed, you literally get nothing. So I think all I've ever known is being self-employed and having my children. And I've written books through every single pregnancy in birth I've ever had. And this will be my third time. maybe perhaps having done the same thing. So thank you for sharing that, Ella, because to everyone listening, yeah, when you don't get a mat leave, things are 100% not straightforward. But I'm in a very fortunate situation that I thoroughly enjoy my work. And for that, I feel very blessed. So we will be back on Thursday with our extra scoop. Yes, we will. We're going to be talking about whether

we can trust our hunger. We've had lots of questions on that. We're going to be talking about some myths around BBQs. I love saying the word BBQ. BBQ. We are going to be talking about my, not magic mushrooms, like medicinal mushrooms, berberine, sort of weight loss supplements around that. You might have seen things about that. So lots and lots of different things. Recipe boxes. Anyways, loads to chat about.

So we will see you. We have loads of good recommendations as well. So we will see you guys on Thursday. We can't wait. We'll see you Thursday for BBQs of magic mushrooms. Bye everyone. Bye.