The Wellness Scoop - Baby Mills! What to Expect When You are Expecting

Episode Date: February 5, 2019

In this very special episode Matt and Ella talk with Marina Fogle, author and co-founder of the bump class, about the exciting and daunting prospects of early parenthood and beyond.  See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Samsung Galaxy. Ever captured a great night video only for it to be ruined by that one noisy talker? With Audio Erase on the new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, you can reduce or remove unwanted noise and relive your favorite moments without the distractions. And that's not all. New Galaxy AI features like NowBrief will give you personalized insights based on your day schedule so that you're prepared no matter what. Buy the Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra now at Samsung.com. Hi everyone and welcome to the Deliciously Ella podcast with me, Matthew Mills, and my wife and business partner, Ella Mills. Hi, everyone. So today's episode is a really special episode for us, actually.

You may follow us on other forms of social media. And if you do, you may have seen, but we have recently discovered that we are pregnant, which is a kind of completely amazing, mind-blowing, overwhelming kind of sense, really, that I've never had before. And we're beyond excited about it. But you quickly learn that there is so much to learn and there's so much you don't know. We were incredibly fortunate and got pregnant very, very quickly. And as a result, I think hadn't had a minute to do any homework. So we thought, how's the best way to get started?

And as soon as I told my mum I was pregnant, she was so sweet. And it's her first grandchild, so she's really excited. And she rushed right out and she said, all my friends say this is the best book. You need this book. And she gave us a book. And we devoured the book. It was absolutely brilliant. And I thought, well, these are the people we need to be talking to. So today on the podcast, we've got Marina Fogel. And she's been hosting something called The Bump Class,

which she founded with her sister, Dr. Kiara Hunt, in 2013. So for the last six years, she has been working with so many different women throughout their pregnancy, but then also finding all the specialists in all the different areas, psychology, breastfeeding, you name it. And so I feel like she's our guru to distill all the information that's out there. And she also hosts a podcast, The Parenthood Podcast. So basically, we're hoping you can shine light on this fascinating completely new topic for us and welcome and thank you for coming well thank you for having me and congratulations it's so exciting isn't it finding out you're pregnant it's crazy do you know what like and and everyone I've told this to kind of looks at me like I'm a bit of a nutter and maybe I am and I'm overly in

touch with with myself anyway but I was I knew within like six days that we were pregnant and I really I just started to have all these funny things going on and Matt was out that day and he came back and I thought shall I tell him is he just gonna think I've lost my mind and I was like okay no I think we're pregnant but it was you know I had to wait another two weeks or so to take the test and I so I asked my mom and I asked a few people and everyone said, oh, I really don't think you'll know now. I really don't think you'll know now. So it was such anticipation to take the test as well.

And then we finally took it. And I got up at like four o'clock in the morning to take it because I was so excited and curious. And we took it and then I almost didn't believe it. So I took three more on the follow-up each day after that we then went to see the GP and he was like why did you take three because I obviously am that nutser that I just described myself as but it was the most crazy surreal feeling really yeah it's one of these things that you hear lots about lots of our friends have have had babies but when

you actually find out you genuinely feel a shift within yourself um and a new responsibility absolutely and a new focus as well i think yeah and then you often think because it's quite evil actually that you don't know you're pregnant until you're four weeks pregnant and you think oh my god did i eat something bad did i did i drink something bad did I breathe in too much exhaust fumes? Or did I go to a smoky party? And suddenly think, have I sort of done something bad to my baby

before I've even started? And I think there the guilt begins. Totally. Is there actually any proof that any of those things can have an effect on a baby? Or is it? It's really difficult to know. And I think so often with,

when it comes to sort of pregnancy and health messages. Not that Ella's been out, I mean, not that Ella's been out like boogying until four o'clock in the morning. It's difficult because I think with health messages around pregnancy, it's unethical to trial new drugs or old drugs on pregnant women. So generally, if you look on the back of any packet of even paracetamol, do not take or seek advice from your GP if you're pregnant or breastfeeding. And it says that's pretty much on everything. And medicine is all about weighing up risk versus benefit. And ultimately, a lot of pregnant women do have to take medication that isn't ideal, but the risk to them if they didn't take the medication and treat their symptoms or treat their illness would

be greater to the baby than potentially taking the medication. So for example, if you're really sick during your early first trimester, if you have really bad morning sickness, hyperemesis, you run the risk of becoming severely dehydrated and malnourished. And in that case, it's better for you and safer for your baby for you to be taking the anti-sickness medication. But if you had a normal pregnancy or feeling a little bit sick, then the risk of taking the medication would be higher.

So it's about weighing up that fine balance. I had this panic when I suddenly found out and I thought oh my goodness okay you can't have this you can't have that or you're not meant to have too much vitamin a and I was like have I taken anything with vitamin a and or do I have I was literally like going through all my cupboards all my face creams everything and it is amazing you suddenly have this sense of guilt and then I was also given this book on nutrition. I remember reading it and like, to be totally honest with you, and it's very un-deliciously Ella, but the first, you know, the first 12 weeks, like I, I've only eaten beige food. I just could not stomach. I remember this when I was like, I must be pregnant. So I saw broccoli and gagged and I was like, whoa, what's going on here? And again, then I started to feel really guilty and I was like well I either eat

let's be honest quite a lot of chips or I don't eat anything and it's much better to be doing that and it's amazing how you start having this guilt being like I need to be doing this I need to be doing that and you it's fascinating and there is a theory that our bodies will tell us what we need yeah and so you know if you have a craving I mean women have extraordinary cravings for things like toothpaste and charcoal when they're pregnant. So chips is probably okay. I was literally doing a bump class the other day. This girl said, I have been eating McDonald's the entire pregnancy, but that's all I crave.

And I'm so against eating McDonald's. She said, I'm really at odds with this, but that's all I could eat. And I slightly think you have to listen to your body. Our bodies are so much more sophisticated than we give them credit for. And we're just understanding, starting to understand more and more about our bodies. So I think a lot of pregnancy is listening to your own body. If you are tired, don't think I'm being lightweight. I'm not being tough enough. I'm not got my finger on the ball. Think my body is telling me I need to sleep. If you're feeling like you do want to run, then run. If you feel that you don't want to exercise at all then don't and i think it's really

important to be able to strip back what we're feeling and try and listen to our body and trust our gut that's been something that i think though that i think so far we've we've managed to balance well is that ella's had really really bad nausea for the last 12 weeks and for the first eight or nine weeks uh that ella's pregnant we didn't want to tell anyone we don't want to tell so we didn't tell our team and so ella's usually the hardest working person she's just always up for anything in any meeting any event anything and then so for ella to back off those and be like oh i can't do that but not be able to say why was was a bit of a challenge yeah i found it really hard i said to you know you actually got you were really firm with me about it and I actually really needed

someone to say I was like I feel like I'm failing at the moment this is around like week 10 because I felt like you have that kind of I guess slight sense of removal from the pregnancy because you haven't had your 12-week scan yet and you're just kind of waiting for those sorts of moments but at the same time you feel like you're doing your normal life. But I felt like I wasn't doing as well as work. Also, we work in food. So it'd be like, do you want to try this? I was like, no, I can't. I really can't try it. I was taking lots of time off. I was so exhausted. And then I don't know, like I would go to my yoga class and you know, you're doing like 30% of the class and it's really interesting having that conversation with yourself saying it's okay to slow down. It's okay not to be performing at 100% of the class and it's really interesting having that conversation with yourself saying it's

okay to slow down it's okay not to be performing at 100% of where you normally are you're doing something else that's incredible and it's almost like we can't give ourselves credit for that and so I said I feel like I'm failing at the moment you were like are you joking which thank you but it is interesting how tuning in to your body is actually harder than you would expect it to be. I mean, it's literally the opposite of failing and doing the most remarkable thing that you can do. And it's so great that you reminded her of that, because I think you're right. 21st century women are used to being amazing and it feels like they need to be given permission to slow down. But if you think about what your body's doing you're creating a whole new human and by 12 weeks your baby is fully formed yeah is it true

that it has fingerprints by 12 weeks yeah yeah it's extraordinary i mean tiny weenies but your body has done all of that and because they're about the size of a lemon now right 13 weeks it's a lemon so we're currently a lemon when we record this i think next week when this comes out will be a peach and then we navigate to an orange but you know it's not even just the physicality of you know we often think of a baby as a sort of doll it's not it's a human with a brain it with the lungs with a spleen with you know kidneys all of these incredibly sophisticated organs are being created, not by anyone else, but you. And if you think about the energy that's taken up, I mean,

there's definitely doctors always say, you know, be most careful about what you drink and eat in the first 12 weeks, because that's when all these vital changes are taking part in the baby. After that, you can definitely be a little bit more relaxed. I mean, I'm not saying drink, but at the same time, if you're going to be careful, be careful for those first 12 weeks. And I think that when it comes to looking after yourself, I think it should be okay to take the time to sleep and to rest and not to be on form. And I slightly think, I mean, I was exactly like you with my first pregnancy, I didn't want to tell anyone before 12 weeks. My first pregnancy ended in a miscarriage. And actually, I then told everyone because I felt that, you know, A, if I told them, it would tell them a little bit about how I was

feeling. It wasn't like I was being a bad friend or useless at work. I was pregnant. I was feeling pretty ropey and I was not hungover, which I was terrified that everyone thought I was going to be the whole time. But also, if you do have to make a difficult decision, or if you do have a miscarriage, that's when you need your friends the most. And almost at work, I'm not saying, you know, broadcast it to the whole world, but even your work colleagues, just say to them,

you know, it's not official yet, but I do want to let you know I'm pregnant. Because if I'm not on form, you know why. It's not that I'm not taking the job seriously anymore. But also, if I have to take time off for tests, or I have to, you know, have to take a few days off because I'm having an emotional time, you understand why. And actually, I think that's not a bad sort of sentiment when it comes to sort of that first trimester. So one question I have is, I definitely felt for me, the first thing I did was Google. I Googled everything. I'd never been

on Mumsnet before. I have spent so long on Mumsnet in the last few months. It's unbelievable. Because there's all these crazy things happening in your body. And you're like, is this normal? Is this not normal? Should I be worried about this? Should I not be worried about that? And there is so much information out there. And it's really fascinating. And I found it quite intimidating trying to distill it. You've obviously kind of really cut through that by finding experts to talk to and people to work with. How do you go about that process of kind of finding out what to listen to, what's potentially just making you overly nervous, overly cautious, and where to kind of glean your information from?

I must say, when I start the bump class and the girl sits down and says, I know nothing, I always think, because it's so much easier than someone who has done loads and loads of research. And the problem is with the internet is that there is a lot of great information on the internet, but there's a lot of incorrect information. There's a lot of theory. And what we try and do on the bump class is listen to professionals who are accountable. You know, a lot of people that write stuff on Mumsnet, they'll say something, but you know, there's no accountability. So if they say something that potentially is fatal, well, they're no one, you know, they're just a name behind a facade on a forum. So I think it's quite scary. Like I had when this is what made me think we're pregnant. So I had

implantation bleeding, and I've never bleed between my cycles. And so I start Googling it. And then some people are saying, oh, it's a miscarriage. Other people are saying it's this, other people are saying it's that. And you suddenly get really scared of something that turned out to be as harmless and actually a really positive sign. Absolutely. And probably the worst thing in all that was the anxiety you felt because actually we're beginning to understand so much more about how anxiety and stress, even in the very early stages of pregnancy can affect, you know, an unborn baby. So I think just making sure that you're listening to someone that you trust, making sure ideally, it's a face, if you publish a book, there are legal requirements behind the evidence of the book. And that person who's written a book is has a sort of public image

and is accountable. I think also trying to speak to one person so if it's your midwife or it's your GP rather than you know everyone as soon as you're pregnant everyone has an opinion on your pregnancy and that's quite exhausting you know and and it continues then when your baby's born are you going to breastfeed for and that's too long or that's not long enough or that's's, you know, and it's just really overwhelming. So I'd say, you know, stick to one person's advice. Maybe, you know, I would really, really advise against Googling stuff. You can find anything you want to find. If you want to sort of find justifications for some crazy theory, you'll be able to find it somewhere on the internet. It's all very well to have a theory, but if it's not backed up by evidence, then it

could potentially be sort of damaging. Yeah, completely. So in terms of all the experience you've had, all the people you've met, we've had a lot of messages from people who are pregnant at the moment, probably kind of going through the same thing. In terms of things to learn, things to know, things to kind of swat up on, what are your kind of top tips? I think looking after yourself is really important, as we mentioned before, just that acknowledgement that your body is probably doing the most physically and mentally. Yeah, it's doing the most phenomenal thing

any human ever does is to create, I mean, forget Olympic athletes, this is your Olympics. So I think listening to your body and maybe tuning into your body a little bit. I was doing a podcast with a psychiatrist the other day, and she was saying how we're talking about the first 1001 days of a baby's life. And we now know that those are the most important days of a child's life. And that

basically shapes the adult they become. And interestingly, those 1000 days begin at conception. So I think a lot of people think, well, the baby's not a baby. It's a sort of lump in my tummy and it's getting bigger. And only when it's born does it, you know, start to understand. And even then, they're sort of blobs that can't really see very much. And you sort of think, well, they're sort of a bit unresponsive, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Babies are very aware of sound, of noise. You know, we now know talking to your baby and singing to your baby, and this might sound a bit crazy, but actually that is all really, really positive. When a baby is born, they'll recognize your voice because they're used to hearing it. They've done studies on people exposed to acute stress and the impact that has on the baby. And I totally understand

that there are people who are in stressful situations and it's not something they can control, but there is stuff you can do about it. So things like acknowledging when you've got a stressful situation, maybe taking a bit of time out each day to do even five or 10 minutes of mindfulness. And that could be a mindfulness app. That could be your yoga class. It could be coloring or sewing or just sitting down and just thinking about your body and trying to connect with your baby. Honestly, when I think when I first got pregnant, I slightly thought, you know, you just carry on normal life. And then I'll plop this baby out. And, you know, I'll be a mother.

But actually, the more time I spend around pregnant women, and the more I get to know my children and understand a little bit more about how complex we are as humans, but also how powerful we are as parents. I think that's probably the most important thing. Just that connection is so important. And we talked about it earlier, but the guilt is quite a big thing we have to deal with. I think as soon as you become pregnant, you're wracked by the feeling that you're maybe not quite good enough a parent. Did I eat the wrong thing? Did I eat too much? Did I rest too little? And then when your babies are born, you're sort of constantly wondering whether or not you're wracked by the feeling that you're maybe not quite good enough a parent. Did I eat the wrong thing? Did I eat too much? Did I rest too little? And then when your babies are born,

you're sort of constantly wondering whether or not you're a good enough parent. And if you can connect with your child, then that is being the best possible parent there is to be. That's so much more important than sort of anything else. So I think taking the time to acknowledge the magnitude of what your body is doing and to connect with that and to prepare emotionally is really, really important. And for any other guys listening or another partner in a relationship, what's the best tips you have as a support mechanism for the person who's pregnant? I think acknowledging, you know, having that conversation about that permissiveness to slow down.

I think what you said to Ella was just so great. And, you know, we do these father's evenings. And one of the first things that we talk about is, you know, by the time she's in her third trimester, life becomes really hard. There's a statistic that by the time you're in your third trimester of pregnancy, with every step you're taking, 100% extra force is exerted on your joints. Okay, that's just physically, you know, you're carting around a huge amount of extra weight. It's up to 20 kilos. Now, if I pick up two 10-kilo weights in the gym, I'm staggering around that gym.

That's every day, every step that woman is carrying that extra weight. And I'll say to them, listen, bending down, emptying the dishwasher, taking the rubbish out at the end of the day, that's quite a hard task. And if you could just sort of muck in there, that makes all the difference. I would say it's way better than jewellery, just having someone sort of practical. And I think that really, really helps. And that resting too, you know, often it's the guys that will say to the girls or the partners that will say, come on, it's the weekend, put your feet up. You know, maternity leave is not about seeing all your friends and redecorating the nursery and

resorting through the clothes. Maternity leave is time to rest up for those last few weeks of pregnancy. We know there's a direct correlation between how big your baby is and how much the mother rests during the final trimester. And you want nice big babies. Big babies feed better, they sleep better, they are healthier. You want nice big babies. And so we know, and you'll probably find that once your bump starts growing, you'll hopefully have the chance to go away, you know, for a week on holiday, and you'll notice that your bump will get really big during that week away. And that's because you're resting, because you're not racing around London, recording podcasts. And so I think, you know, and often women just need that permission. So being supportive and being

that reminder that they're growing a baby, and it's okay to take, you know, life easy. And then I think once the baby's born, just jumping in at the deep end. I remember when Ludo, my eldest, was born, I was in hospital for quite a long time and I wasn't very well. And my husband ended up doing all the nappies. And actually he loved it. And I think by the time we left hospital 10 days later, he'd done every single nappy, hadn't done one. And it wasn't ideal that I was ill. But at the same time, it gave him the confidence to handle Ludo, to change his nappies, to burp him, to do all those things that he could do. And I think that was the best possible start for him. And I think determined his relationship as a very hands-on father which is often defined in those first

days and weeks of of your child's life yeah no I definitely definitely want to be a really hands-on dad I want to be deeply involved I don't want it to feel like it's it's just Ella who's who's doing any of that and it's something I'm really excited about as well and it is it's one of the like with any relationship you more you invest in it the more rewarding it is and It's one of the, like with any relationship, the more you invest in it, the more rewarding it is. And nothing I can say will prepare you for how mind-blowingly amazing it is to be a parent. And yes, there are tough times. It's like the hardest job you'll ever do. But my God, it's such a privilege. It's such fun. There are these moments when we've been at scans and you just literally want to burst like you just cannot quite believe that you just see this little thing and this is at the moment it's a little blurry image just wait until they smile at you and they make you laugh and i'm so excited i really really am just over the moon yeah it's unbelievable i actually have a very important question okay which is which is we have a very important question which is we have a young hound here

who is in the studio with us now who has actually very much been the centre point of our life he's hugely spoiled and indulged how do you ease pets into bringing a baby home this is such a common question

because I think very often couples have their baby in the form of a dog. He has been a baby. He's now, he'll be four in April. But he comes everywhere with us. Like, he comes to work with us. First thing he does when he wakes, like, he does actually sleep outside our room. But he comes in and, like, literally gets into bed. Tucks himself under the duvet. Yeah, like, he is our child. Like, he is a complete and utter part of our of our family and he actually i think it's one of the reasons we knew ella was pregnant is he just started going a

bit mad when ella first got pregnant because i guess he could smell the hormones he cried all day and he as matt said he sleeps outside a room and he never makes a noise and that week he cried every night he'd wake us up at like three o'clock in the morning he'd just be outside outside the room crying. So I really do think he knew something was happening. So how do we ease him into it? I think, you know, the thing to remember is that dogs tend to love having children around. And, you know, you're their pack and it's quite normal for them to have additions to the pack.

I actually did a really interesting podcast about this with my father-in-law, Bruce Fogel, who's a vet. And I wanted to ask him exactly this question. And he said, actually, smell's really important. He said one of the best pieces of advice is to bring a dirty nappy, so a pooey nappy home from the hospital and let them have a really good smell of it. You will love that. I have to be honest, bit gross, but Austin will love that i have to be honest bit gross but austin will love that austin does love to roll and poo and things like that and you know he'll love having a baby around there's suddenly lots of people around yeah you know you have lots of time to go for walks babies often sleep best when they're on the go so taking them for a sort of lunchtime sleep he started wagging his tail licking me saying yes i like the idea of the walks. There'll be loads of treats. Do you like treats? I mean, that's the joy.

When your baby starts eating solids, they are delighted. I was going through all the photos the other day. I saw a picture of Ludo in his high chair eating something. And there were five Labradors around him, literally all sitting there sort of looking at him expectantly. And I remember when my children were little, they'd be eating a rice cake and they'd chew it a bit. And then they'd put it down and the dogs would all have a chew and then they'd put it back into their mouth.

There is, again, loads of good research that shows that children that grow up in households that aren't too perfectly clean, that have dogs, are at much lower risk of allergies. Their immune system gets a sort of real boost. So, you know, there are so many benefits. And, as they get older, growing up with dogs is such a privilege. You know, it teaches them responsibility. You know, my son now gets up every morning and feeds our dog. It teaches them about responsibility. You know, you're having to walk your dog, even if it's pouring with rain and you really don't want to go out, you do have to go out. I did a really interesting podcast on grief and death. And it's a sort of way of introducing the idea that we're all mortal. And that's quite a difficult thing to introduce to a child. But actually, it's a sort of way of introducing the idea that we're all mortal. And that's quite a difficult thing to introduce to a child.

But actually, it's a really good lesson sometimes. So to care for other things, to have them, you know, dependent on you. I think, you know, there's so many aspects of having not necessarily any dog, but all sorts of pets that give so many learning opportunities to children. So lucky, you're a lucky baby growing up in a house with a loving dog so i have to ask one question as well is there so many other things out there in terms of like hypnobirthing water births you know all these sorts of different options what are your kind of experiences with all these things what what is it that we should be looking for looking at

exploring yeah well i think it's really good to start exploring the different ways to give birth and i don't think there is a right and wrong way to give birth really everyone should just want a safe birth and luckily thanks to modern medicine and hospitals and midwives and qualified doctors that is very very very very very likely to happen certainly if you compare it to other parts of the world or, you know, even Britain 100, 200 years ago. I think that birth, it's a very emotive subject. And that's one of the reasons that we started the bump class. You know, again, people are going to tell you how you should give birth. I think the key is to have an open mind. And what I hope that most people leave the bump class thinking is that I really hope I'm going to have a straightforward birth, you know, thinking about the fact that this is what we are born to do. This is what we've evolved to do. Giving birth is something

our bodies are designed to do. It's the most important thing. And we're all built with so much fear of it now. I think it's crazy. I think from movies and the kind of general conversation around at the moment, it feels like it's the opposite of that yeah and i think there's so much of it is to do with positivity you know you look at elite athletes and part of their training significant part of their training is the belief that they can win the race and if you go into labor thinking or into your pregnancy thinking oh it's going to be awful it was awful for my mother it was awful for my sister i'm going to end up with an awful birth that's not doing you any favors There's no research to show that

if your parents have had difficult births or your family have, that that's going to be the same for you. But if you go into it with a negative frame of mind, that's really not going to help you. So I think, you know, go to see your midwife, have a chat through it. You know, some people love the idea of being in water and some people hate it. I encourage people to try it because actually, you know, the NHS has paid a lot of money for these water, the birth pools, and they wouldn't have done it unless they'd seen firsthand that, you know, it's a really great environment in which to give birth. But I think have an open mind. You know, we're often sort of encouraged to make a

birth plan. And I think people misinterpret this, that you write a plan and that's how it's going to be. Well, you can't plan your birth in the same way that you can't plan your life. You can write as detailed a plan and laminate it as much as you like for your life, but doesn't mean that's going to happen. And it's the same thing with your birth. So I think if you think, I'd really love to give natural birth ago, and I'm going to, you think, I'd really love to give natural birth a go and I'm going to, you know, I'd love to know a little bit more about hypnosis and I'm going to go and do a course

and I'm going to try and get my head around it and I'd love to use the water. Basically, it's about controlling your anxiety. This is hypnobirthing. Yeah, so using hypnosis to control. A lot of people say that because we have so much fear of birth and because we have so much fear of birth and because we have so

much fear of pain, you know, we usually associate pain with something negative, that as soon as we feel the pain of contractions, we sort of tense and fight it. The adrenaline levels increase in our body, which directly suppress the oxytocin, which is the kind of love hormone, the sort of hormone that triggers labor. So if you've got high adrenaline levels, your labor is likely to last a little bit longer and be a little bit more painful. Whereas if you can trick your brain to be like, no, this pain is fantastic. It's what's meant to happen. This is what my body's meant to be doing. Your adrenaline levels go down, which allows the oxytocin to flow all over your body, which allows your labor to kind of progress nicely and quickly and effectively. That's sort of the idea around it.

And if you're going to do hypnobirthing, how far into the pregnancy do you need to start doing classes? I think it's worth, you know, potentially getting downloads at this stage, you know, because, you know, hypnosis will encourage you to relax. If you can control your anxiety and your emotions through your mind, through hypnosis, I mean, that's an amazing skill to have, whether or not you use it in labor or not. So if you spent, you know, half an hour a day or an hour a few times a week, you know, listening to a sort of a birth hypnosis, a hypnobirthing download, that is going to do you nothing but good. Even if you end up having to have an emergency cesarean, I guarantee you won't look back and think, well, what a wasted.

It's tough to believe that exactly that there's any downside to it but you never know it might really really help and some people said that even though they ended i've heard some people saying even though they ended up having to have an emergency c-section or something like that they went into it a bit calmer you know when the contractions first started they didn't have that deep sense of rooted fear that that's what they were able to control so it still made the process as a whole more enjoyable so i think we'll definitely and if it can take you through for an hour or even if you end up knowing that you've got to have an elective cesarean because of whatever reason you know actually lying in an operating theater and having major abdominal surgery while you're awake and knowing it's kind of the happiest day of your life is a bit weird

too yeah and a lot of people lying of your life is a bit weird too. And a lot of people lying there thinking, I'm a bit scared. Well, you could use your hypnosis then. And quite frankly, then when you're driving along in the car and your baby's screaming in the back seat, but you're on the motorway so you can't stop, your anxiety levels are quite high, using breathing, using natural techniques to control your anxiety

is also going to be really useful. I think where a lot of people think, oh, well, it's kind of like having an epidural. It's not. It doesn't take the pain of contractions away, but it is a technique that really, really helps with labor. But it doesn't help everyone. And, you know, there are some people

that do a little bit of hypnosis and find it super useful in labor. There are some women that really focus on it. And then in the end, for whatever reason, they use it for a certain amount of time and then they do need an epidural. But But you know, you don't need to choose. It's not like when you write your birth plan, whatever's not on the birth plan is not going to be offered to you. If you say, I want to use hypnosis, I want to use the water, I want to have a natural birth,

and then you decide, you know, six hours into your labor that that's not for you. There's anesthetists at every hospital that can give you the pain relief that is appropriate to do. But there's no way of you being able to anticipate that. It's a bit like if I said to you, are you going to need to take some paracetamol at four o'clock on Tuesday afternoon? You're like, well, I don't know. If I have a headache, then yes. But if I don't, and I think, you know, pregnant women are asked to sort of make that decision. Are you going to need medicalised pain relief in your labour? Well, how on earth are you meant to answer that question? And I think the purpose of a birth plan is really to think about your options. Think about, do you want to try hypnosis? Do you want to try water? But also to regard it as a preference rather than a plan. I think the plan is sort of

the wrong word. And in an ideal world, this is what I want, but let's see how it goes. And ultimately, I want the safe delivery of my baby and that's kind of the most important thing you can't pass or fail your labor no exactly and that's what we keep saying like all we're interested in is like we keep saying 10 fingers 10 toes like that's obviously the focus of everything but it's it's interesting to start kind of exploring what you need to do and other people say like you've definitely got to get breastfeeding specialists and all of that. And I think that's when it starts to feel scary because it starts to feel like there's this whole world out there that you've got to explore and you've got to know everything.

And how on earth can you learn everything in the next six months? Yeah, well, you will learn, you know, you will you will learn a lot. But also, you know, if you think every mother got chucked in at the deep end and we almost overthink it, you know, our instinct is very powerful as parents. When pediatricians are being trained, they are told one of the biggest sort of red flags is a mother's instinct. And if a mother comes in with a baby and she says, you know what, I can't put my finger on it, don't know what's wrong, but something is, that raises alarm bells because our instinct

is so strong. And all mothers are first time mothers once. And you all come home with this precious baby and you think well i'm not trained what now i suddenly have left hospital with the most precious thing in the world and realize it comes with no operating instructions but you will make the right decisions even though you're plagued by doubt even though every time you do something you doubt whether or not it's enough or too much or too hot or too cold what you're doing will do the right thing. Were you terrified the first time? I was. I was quite scared. But I think you just have to just go with it. A bit like when you've

got a new puppy. I'm sure when Austin arrived. When we first got Austin, we were like, oh my God, this is absolutely insane. But then you adjust and you learn and you keep going and he's turned out great. At least the baby poos in nappies. Austin just pooed all over the house. But you haven't heard of the poonami yet. Oh, no. What's the poonami?

The explosive poo that comes out of the nappy. Babies are notorious for doing really explosive poos. And very often the nappy does not catch what comes out. So it's affectionately called the poonami. Oh, perfect. But, you know, you will also become very kind of au fait with bodily fluids. If it's your baby's, it's fine. And nature is a great way of easing you into it.

You know, baby poo, baby vomit doesn't smell like grown-up vomit. It will smell better than Austin's, for sure. It will. And to be honest, by the time your baby baby you know is is eating spaghetti bolognese and those poos are revolting um you'll do anything for that child it doesn't matter what happens how large the punami is yeah you you'll do anything for them so when i announced i was pregnant lots of lovely people messaged and said they were pregnant as well and quite a lot of people said this and. And I found the same thing, that they felt quite lonely. And it's crazy because you're going through this kind of really intense, surreal experience. But unless kind of your close

friends or family or something are going through it at a similar time, you can feel quite on your own on it. And imagine, especially first time time I definitely felt quite lonely in those first few weeks and quite kind of overwhelmed and couldn't quite figure out what was going on and there's so much changing and you kind of feel a bit nervous about this and as you said that kind of sense am I good enough to do this am I ready and I wondered whether or not that was something you you find a lot in in the kind of women that you work with and also whether there was anything in particular you found that's kind of really supported that? Yeah, no, I think you're not alone. I remember I was the first of my sisters, the first of my friends to have a baby. And I remember

definitely the first two trimester for my pregnancy, it tended to be more about the things I couldn't do. And when it was a sort of negativity, which is, I think, looking back at a real shame. It was really when I started doing antenatal classes, and I was surrounded by a group of women who were in the same position as me that I started really embracing it and started really to look forward to it and realize I've always been quite a social person. I've always liked having friends and people to talk to. And that for me was a real turning point. And again, one of the reasons that I really wanted to start the bump class, because you make an amazing group of friends, and I'm still in touch with some of them nowadays. And I see that bond grow on the bump class. I see them come in as sort of 12 girls who sort of come into a room and they sort of look around going, oh, these people are meant to be my

best friends. I'm not so sure. And they leave after eight classes, and they're definitely good mates. Like they enjoy chatting to each other. But the real difference comes after the first year of their baby's lives when they've had a year of this extraordinary time together. And being able to have a group of women who are going through the same thing at the same time as you, whose babies are experiencing the same challenges. And, you know, even if you've got a friend whose baby is four months older or six months younger, what they're experiencing in that first year is going to be totally, totally different to you. So I think having a group of women and being able to, you know, nowadays you can communicate on WhatsApp, you can chat at three o'clock in the morning when you feel like you're the only person in London awake. And a lot of the loneliness is

sort of around that. So I think that's really common. But I also think it's interesting, when I meet the women that come and do the bump class, everyone's got a slightly different outlook. And I always say this to them. And I say, you know, some of you will be sitting here thinking, I'm so glad I have wanted this for so long. And it has been such a struggle to get here. And now I feel like my world is perfect. But there'll be others thinking, well, I was really excited, but actually now I'm a bit nervous because I've heard all these horrible stories about birth and tearing and, you know, bleeding and all of this kind of stuff that's freaked me out a little bit. And I'm not sure whether I should have gone down this route. And there will be some women in that room thinking, maybe I should have just stuck with dogs.

And I kind of wish I wasn't pregnant. And you're sort of resenting it. And actually, I think going to a good antenatal class to give you evidence-based information, to empower you to make the right decisions for you, because there isn't a one-size-fits-all. It's not like I can say, everyone should have this kind of birth.

Different decisions and different options are right for different people. Because I think you should enjoy it. It's the day your baby's born. It's the day that you will celebrate forever. So, Maureen, to end each episode, we always ask our guests what a daily routine, a ritual, a saying, a motto or something that you live by, what's yours? Well, a little routine that I've started doing, and I know this sounds so cheesy, is just remembering how grateful I am for what I've got. And I do this with my kids. I have a little notebook that sits by my bed. And every night before I go to sleep, I will just write a couple of things that made me happy. And that might be the delicious soup I cooked for lunch. Or it might be something that my children said. or it might be that I went to Zara and bought myself a new dress, but something that I felt grateful for. And in the morning when I wake up, in that kind of, you know, those sort of fuddled moments when you just don't want to get out of bed, I think of three things I'm looking forward to in the morning. And I think

that is so important. You know, we're understanding so much more about our mind and, you know, mental health problems are an increasing problem, especially amongst the younger generation. And I think that positivity is really important. And I do that with the kids. And it's such a nice way to reflect and cement those positive memories of the day. And to start that day off with a sort of positive frame of mind. I think that's a really lovely ritual. Yeah, it brings you back to solid ground.

Yeah. I love that. So tables are turned. Matt, what are you most looking forward to? Gosh, so I came from and come from an incredibly close family. And the times I've been happiest, honestly, have just been Sunday afternoons or Saturday mornings lying in bed when I was a kid with mum and dad and um I and my sister Jess and I'm just looking forward to it sounds so kind of silly and cheesy but it's just the kind of the

mundaneness of just being a family I can't wait just to have our little one lying around in bed with us or um seeing them do their first thing and um I it's just it's just going to be just being us at home as a family is what I'm looking forward to most. I mean, I know that those have been the happiest moments in my life. And I hope that with our family, we can replicate just that complete sense of happiness and solidarity and warmth and peace at home that I've been so fortunate to have. That unconditional love. Absolutely. So Marina, thank you so, so much for coming today. Honestly, it's been amazing. And I think,

yeah, it's just made us even more excited about it. And also good to know it's just important to be open-minded, learn as much as we can, but also not get kind of too set in our ways and go to antenatal classes and make pregnant friends. I feel like that's going to be top of my to-do list. Thank you all so much for listening. As always, if you've enjoyed it, please do rate it, review it, share it with friends. It makes all the difference.

We'll be back again next week. Next Tuesday, we're actually talking all things skin health, hormones, acne, you name it, popping your spots. I'm pretty excited about this episode. And otherwise, again, massive thank you, Marina. And you can find everything about Marina acne you name it popping your spots I'm pretty excited about this episode and otherwise again massive thank you Marina and you can find

everything about Marina around The Bump Class the book's called The Bump Class the classes are called The Bump Class thanks everyone You're a podcast listener, and this is a podcast ad heard only in Canada. Reach great Canadian listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn ads.

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