The Wellness Scoop - Botox, #SkinnyTok & Is All Sugar the Same?

Episode Date: June 16, 2025

This week, we’re diving into the slightly shocking (and sometimes surprisingly wholesome) stories shaping our health and habits. We start with TikTok’s decision to ban the hashtag #SkinnyTok, following a viral exposé revealing the darker side of the “skinny girl” aesthetic and the influencer-led community profiting from it. Then there’s new research showing that smiling might be six times more effective than Botox when it comes to attractiveness, raising big questions about beauty standards, confidence, and connection. We also get into the shrinking length of TED Talks, the red meat industry’s influence on heart health studies, and the surprising truth about coconut sugar, agave, and maple syrup. Are any of them actually better for you? Elsewhere in the episode, we cover Britain’s booming banana obsession (and the waste it’s creating), why Scandinavian saunas are strictly nude, and what’s changing in school food. This week’s recommendations The Cut article The Unprocessed Plate by Rhiannon Lambert Your Friends and Neighbours (Apple TV) Sirens (Netflix) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum Points on your first five orders. Shop now at nofrills.ca. Welcome to the Wellness Scoop, your weekly dose of health and wellness inspiration. And as always, we are your hosts, I'm Elamels. And I'm Rhiannon Lambert. And after a decade in the wellness industry, we know how overwhelming and confusing health advice can be. And that's why we created this podcast to cut through the noise and make healthier living

simple, fun and personal. And if today we sound a teeny bit different, it's because we're doing this remotely. A lovely, lovely producer wasn't feeling well and actually it meant Ria and I both got extra time with our kids this morning. So it's a win. Unfortunately, we're not together today,

but we will be on Saturday because we've got our live show. Oh my goodness me. So when this episode comes out, we'll have done the live show, Ella. How crazy. I know, I feel like I'll be feeling relaxed except for that I then have about 10 days to finish my cookbook. So then will I be relaxed or will I just move from like one worry to another? Do you not think in life everything always comes all at once? Nothing comes drip fed in, does it? There's always like three or four big things that come at the same time.

Yeah, it's like, do you know what? My father-in-law, who's a really sensational man, he's 81 now, and he always says, when you're having a good time, you've got to tell people and tell everyone and tell yourself out loud, I'm having a great time, life is good. Because suddenly, as you said,

things do happen all at once. And when things are stressful, we always say that out loud. But we kind of rarely acknowledge, like, this is a great week. This is a great day. It's a really great day. And actually, we have a humongous episode today for you. Literally humongous. I'm having a hard time ciphering out from the multitude of headlines

that are appearing, Ella. There's too many, aren't there? I know it's funny. When we started the show and we started in January, obviously January is kind of peak wellness month. And I remember we saying, but I'm really worried we're not going to have anything to talk about for the whole year. Like, will the headlines keep coming?

Will wellness, you know, be changing every week in the same way it is when we start? And we obviously weren't really sure. And it feels like the absolute opposite. The longer we've done the show, obviously we're looking out for what's happening in the world of health and wellness, but oh my goodness, the last few weeks we have had more headlines than ever before. So Rhi, talk us through what is coming up in today's show.

Coming up in today's show, we have free school meals, TikTok banning Skinny Tok, our attention spans are getting shorter and therefore Ted Talk talks are being cut. Bananas are booming. Red meat and our heart health, but who funded the study? Is a smile more powerful than Botox? Saunas and plastic and is all sugar the same from coconut to agave? I mean, Ella, we are really going for it again.

I'm just, I'm like, I'm so excited. I'm always so excited. I'm like a broken record, but I just love this show. Rhee, how has your week been? Oh, it's a big week this week. Actually, I'll start by saying, and I think a lot of people might be in the same boat, because we've mentioned nursery food before, and my son's nursery has been taken over by another company company and they own a lot of nurseries in the UK. Sadly, it means the menu that I originally

signed up for has completely changed. I'm not really happy with the meals at all and a lot of parents aren't. So I'm trying to decipher this really confusing and difficult conversation and trying to get to the bottom of who to contact with regard to nutrition at nurseries and schools. But it goes to show everybody is in the same boat. It's such a problem, I think, at the moment in this country. And I just wanted to raise it because I'm sure I'm not alone. I see a lot of comments all the time about school food for kids and nursery food. So I'm in it with you everybody and I'll keep you posted. I think my recommendations

though and things that I've kind of been up to this week, mainly it's dealing with the admin of life. But I've also got a book launched plan and we've got the live show. I feel like my week's just consumed by that Ella, how about you? Just before we get into anything else, I just want to take a second, because I know, obviously, as well, putting a book together is an extraordinary feat. And Rhee's book is coming out on Thursday, so four days after this episode comes out. I just really want to say the biggest congratulations. Obviously, I know you have poured so much. And Rhee, honestly, I'm not just being overly sycophantic.

She has more integrity than anybody I've ever met in this industry. And she has poured so much into this book and the creation of this book. And you should just be so proud of yourself for that. Ella, you're making me well up. No, I know, I know you guys have said before, but it's so lovely that we can support each other. But that means a lot. And I think one of the reasons why it's so lovely to do this show with you, Ella, of course, is that we can relate on different levels because we understand the juggle,

the industry we're in together, the hard work, and yeah, it's been a lot to deal with. And this subject that I'm writing about, it's not an easy subject, guys. Ultra-processed food is very emotive for people because everyone eats and not everyone has the same privilege in life and everyone has an opinion and we're not getting support from our government. So let's be honest, it is a very difficult subject. So thank you,

Ella. I hope everyone likes the book. I can't believe it's out this Thursday. Right, Ella, let me take the attention off myself. Please tell me what you think. I'm going to put it back on you for one second, which is that the book is called The Unprocessed Plate. It's out on Thursday. Go get it. It's amazing. Rhi is brilliant. Thank you guys. Ella, what have you been up to this week? Well, we've been book shooting. I had the kids on set for that, which was so cute. They really, really love it, which honestly kind of completely warms my heart. Although trying to get them to do what they're meant to do, obviously is quite an interesting experience.

But I've got two short recommendations, which is just with, as you said, everything comes at once, a combination of finishing the book, other projects on at work, planning the live show and moving house, just in the midst of all of that, which we're doing at the end of next month, looking for things to switch off at the end of the day. We have just watched two series, Sirens, which is on Netflix with Julianne Moore and Your Friends and Neighbours, which is with Jon Hamm from Mad Men, which is on Apple TV.

Both just fab, really different. Sirens is just, I think it's one of the best shows I've seen in ages. Easy, easy watch it. Ella, I loved it. Did you love it? Sirens is incredible. I just binge watched it. It's fab. So if you haven't seen it, go watch it. Ella, I loved it. Did you love it? It was incredible. I just binge watched it. It's fab.

So if you haven't seen it, go watch it. And Your Friends and Neighbours is this like kind of dark comedy drama about a man's fall from grace and how it can all unravel. But it's really great watching. So if anyone else needs a bit of, it's quite light relief, switch off, turn your brain away from your to-do list at the end of the day. Two shows that I tend to recommend to get on your radar. I love that. That's so good. I'm definitely going to try because I haven't seen your friends and neighbors. And I had a recommendation of hot

chocolate. Now, I know it's summer, but I am a controversially year round hot chocolate drinker, as in I'm obsessed and I have one of those velvetizer things and I do buy the dark hot chocolate but I have a nutrition fact for everyone which I think is amazing. So two cups of hot chocolate a day but it has to be like 85% plus, so I'm talking the dark stuff, the actual chocolate you melt into the hot milk, has been shown to double the number of stem cells that circulate in your body and it improves the resilience of blood vessels in a month. And that's a study. So drinking hot chocolate not only is something that's enjoyable at the end of the day, but it's beneficial for your health if it's 85% plus.

What a great recommendation. I know. And you know, if you need a chocolate fix or you're like me and you love something sweet, I've been doing this for so long. I mean, I knew they were full of flavonols and antioxidants, but I didn't know the stem cell research. Ella, let's move on to the health headlines that matter. So if you're new to the show, this is the section where every week we bring what is going on in the headlines across the board in the media with health and wellbeing. And I've got a really kind of funny, silly little one that I saw to go first today, which is that Britain goes bananas for bananas. So this is a random, quite wellness scoop-esque fact for us all this morning, which is that sales of bananas are booming. The number of

bananas sold in the UK jumped by 70 million last year, taking the total value of the market to nearly 700 million pounds, according to the latest Kantar data. And that means each adult bought an average of more than 80 bananas, making them by far and away the country's favorite fruit. And according to chat GPT, I'm gonna not say that I made this up, laid end to end, those bananas would circle the earth about 16 times. Oh my goodness. Just what you didn't need to know.

But do you know what? I'm delighted it's a fruit. I'm delighted that that's beneficial. But I think I usually buy 80 bananas a year. We get a bunch every week. Yeah, we probably are on more than that. I agree. I think we're buy 80 bananas a year. We get a bunch every week. Yeah, we probably are on more than that. I think we're probably on more than that. I would say they're the most commonly consumed fruit for children by far. And adults because they just travel quite well. And do you know when I worked at the Royal Albert Hall,

my friend Elsie used to have a banana case so it wouldn't get bruised and bashed. I've seen those in Flying Tiger as well. Yes, those foamy cases. Okay, so super interesting, but the number, Ella, is wild. I know, Intesco alone, which is obviously our biggest retailer in this country, sold an extra 15 million bananas last year. So it's quite something. But this is interesting, actually very wellness scoop-esque, which is that

apparently this is very much because there's a huge, obviously, influencer, creator, online economy, and bananas are just being used in everything from milkshakes, banana bread, smoothies, banana ice cream, et cetera. And as a result of this, we've also seen a corresponding spike in blender sales. Last year, UK consumers spent nearly 500 million pounds on blenders, and the UK accounts for nearly a third of the entire blender market for Europe. I mean, I'm full of totally unnecessary facts this morning. But it's a good example of how trends can ripple out and shape our everyday habits because, you know, what we're buying at the supermarket shapes the tools we need. And I will say, lots of people, because bananas are a staple of so many healthy recipes,

they're a great way to sweeten them. So many people do message me saying, what if I don't like bananas? And I always say, try apple puree or something. But bananas are so wonderful. They kind of bind things and they're delicious. Yeah, Matt hates bananas actually. Does he? Yeah, he thinks they're like foul. Well if they're bruised or just in general.

Just in general, both bananas and avocados. Another totally unnecessary fact that no one needed to know this morning. Fair enough. But also in this article was the note that because we're going bananas for bananas, people then don't know what to do with them when they go over ripe. And so more than 1 million bananas are thrown away every single day. Every day over a million bananas are thrown in the bin just in the UK.

Oh no, I can't handle that. Okay, guys, listening, if you throw away bananas, this is what I do with the kids. I quickly slice them up on a plate. I put nut butter on top of each one. I put them in the freezer. Or I save them up for pancakes, or you can put them in porridges, or you can definitely use those ripe bananas in banana bread or a cake, sugar. Or slice them and just freeze them ready for smoothies. Yeah, exactly. So guys, let's stop throwing away the bananas. That actually makes me really sad.

And they're also great items that you can keep and give to people that need the food. You know, very sadly in London, if you walk past someone on the side of the street that's homeless and you've got something in your bag, giving a banana is an easy thing to give. Okay, we're going from totally unnecessary information from me on bananas this morning to a pick up essentially from last week's scandal episode. Just one more scandal to add to the mix.

Is red meat bad for your heart? It may depend on who funded the study. This was making waves last week. Rui, will you tell us about it? Goodness me. So with 98% of online nutrition advice being wrong, let's just be honest, this week is no surprise to me at all really. So a new review that was published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition was led by Dr. Miguel Lopez-Moreno at the Francisco de Victoria University and it analyzed 44 clinical trials from 1980 to 2023 and it looked at

whether so unprocessed red meat affects cardiovascular health because of course a lot of the data that we have that's concrete is on processed meats so we know that that's not great for our health but we're talking here on things like cholesterol, blood pressure, triglycerides, all that sort of thing that's found in the saturated fat of red meat consumption essentially. And the headline really did look at these aspects, but the studies were funded by the red meat industry, Ella. So that's what's crazy is basically what they're looking at spanning over 40 years of research and different pieces of research that's come out exactly is what's the outcome depending on who's funded the study. The studies that were funded by the

red meat industry were nearly four times as likely to report favorable or neutral outcomes on when it came to eating unprocessed red meat compared to those that weren't. And of the 29 industry-funded trials, not one reported harmful effects of eating unprocessed red meat. 79% said red meat had a neutral effect on heart health, and 21% even said it had a beneficial one. But then when you look at the 15 studies that were done that had no industry ties, 73% of those reported harmful cardiovascular effects of eating unprocessed

red meat and not a single one of those studies found any benefits. So just to give you a bit of perspective, there will always be studies funded by somebody because how else do you pay for research? And there's always going to be studies for and against, but you cannot deny a level of bias sometimes when it comes to something that's funded by food that people want to be researched. The author on this, the lead author said that they expected some discrepancy, but they were surprised by how stark the divide was, Ella, because it does highlight that wider issue in nutritional science that food industry funding often asks

different questions to those that are not industry funded. So red meat was usually compared to things like processed meats or refined carbs. So it's hardly surprising that the results came out neutral because in independent studies, red meat was often compared to plant proteins, always the comparison people make. And guess what? The plant protein groups obviously showed better cardiovascular outcomes for your heart health because plants contain fibre and lots of other known factors that support heart health, whereas red meat contains saturated fat. So to me, that makes sense. Tosie, exactly. So I think the point there is just that they're asking Tosie different questions and as a result, they get completely different outcomes for those outcomes then

becomes so misleading to the public. And I just think obviously, we talk about this so much though we read, but it's this complete like cacophony of different noises and shouting and contradictory headlines that makes it just so difficult for people with busy lives trying to do small changes to improve their health, their friends, their family's health, to know actually what to do. Because one day you see a study that says, red meat is really good for you. The next day you see a study in a headline therefore that says, red meat is really, really bad for you. And how on earth are you meant to know what to do? I mean, it's murky. It's so murky for people. And it's not that all the studies were contradicting each other, it's just that they were designed with the questions that you said.

And it's a reminder that when you look at nutrition research in general, I would often leave it to the nutrition professionals to break it down because unless you're trained with a clinical eye to read these independent studies, you know a lot of the time you see influencers quoting one study and saying, this backs up what I'm saying because of this one study. You're often lacking the context, the nuance, the study design, was it a food diary? Was it an observation?

Was it actual methodical data? There's so many different things, but not just if it's funded, but being funded is one aspect to obviously look at in a study because it does make a bit of a difference, but there are so many different factors and that's why nutrition is just confusing. But Ree, for people listening, how do you kind of leave the question of how much red meat to include in a healthy diet? Yeah, absolutely. I don't want people to be fearing food, ultimately.

The one thing I've always said is the processed meats, I would really try and cut out or minimize. But when it comes to actual unprocessed red meat in general, you can have a portion or two of that a week. But in the UK, the guidance that we have is to keep red and processed meat under 70 grams a day. And nobody really weighs meat. if you think about it, you don't look at the quantity on the packet. Most people just serve one portion for a person. So 70 grams is about two rashes of bacon basically or like a really small steak. And it's not about banning it guys. This is literally just about balance and long term heart health. And it's important to understand, I think, and have the knowledge to make the decision.

Yeah, I tell you, Suka, well, thanks for clearing it up for us. And we's important to understand, I think, and have the knowledge to make the decision. Yeah, I totally see. Well, thanks for clearing it up for us. And we can keep going with our scandals because I do think it is really surprising. And again, I'm just so not a conspiracy theorist. I want to just really clarify that before I say what I'm going to say next. But obviously, there is so much money in the food industry. It's a huge industry across the world. And same with pharmaceuticals. And there isn't a huge amount of monetary gain from studying various different things. And so doing a huge study is exceptionally expensive. So it's really unsurprising that therefore it's often like when we're talking about trends where we'll say there's a little

bit of research here, but there's not a huge amount. Everything there is so far, for example, on saunas is positive, but there's not an extraordinary amount of money for many companies to make from funding a sauna study. Whereas these large meat companies, for example, they stand to gain a lot by having a positive headline. And so when you've got huge conglomerates, be that in food, be that in pharmaceuticals, they are generally the ones who are funding studies, which why you get confusion around things like sugar, et cetera, as well. And so I think it is, as I said, not to come across as like a conspiracy theorist. That's not what I'm trying to say.

But I think just in terms of why headlines get confusing or why there's not as much research on almonds, for example, is because there's not really enough for anybody to gain by, generally speaking, by putting massive amounts of money behind that. It's a big ball game, the whole conversation that surrounds food and studies and nutrition, like Ella said. And I think what's so fascinating here is the fact that we just need these headlines. There's such a thirst for headlines on individual items of food rather than looking at a whole diet as well and that also doesn't help the issue here and it's very complex. So let's

move on to a total different subject which I was over the moon to see that you put in because I thought wow wow, this is quite empowering. It's so empowering. It's just a really positive one. Exactly. Is a smile more powerful than Botox? And I don't know, Ria, if you saw it. It's a new study. It came from Tilburg University and it suggests something, as Ria said, just kind of brilliant, which was that smiling might actually make you more attractive than getting Botox. And this study found that Botox increased perceived attractiveness by just 0.07 points on a seven-point scale. But smiling boosted attractiveness by 0.4 points,

making it almost six times more effective and moving you up an attractive scale than Botox. And makeup came up even higher, 0.6 points. Exactly. And remember, 0.07 is a even higher, 0.6 points. Exactly. And remember, 0.07 is a lot smaller than 0.4. And if you look at the stats there, the researchers asked over 3,000 participants to rate before and after photos of people who'd had Botox or dermal fillers. So it's actually a pretty robust sample, isn't it?

Because if you look at the fact that, I don't know, I was watching the Olivia Atwood documentary that she started and I only got halfway through, just being completely honest, because I was so tired last night after a full day of work. I didn't get through the whole thing and I'm going to watch the next half. I really liked what I saw so far, because it's really honest.

But it's really difficult in a world where we're all starting to look very similar. I know that sounds strange, but there's almost a particular look that is perceived as attractive for those people that are potentially, I think, younger than us, Ella. I think there's a lot of pressure on them to feel like they need to look a certain way. I feel like us millennials are just on the cusp of this new era of Botox. But look, Botox doesn't change how competent, intelligent or trustworthy someone is either in the study, thank goodness, or how much they smiled. So Botox just doesn't make someone more romantically desirable is what it said. What do you think?

I don't know. I think it's really, really interesting because as you said, I think there is this, we've talked about the sort of silent pressure that people now may be feeling around the weight loss drugs a lot. And I think that the kind of botox or fillers or, you know, tweakment conversation very much fits the same narrative, which is this just quite silent pressure that I think so many women feel to look at certain way. And ultimately in this world where we're so image-obsessed. If you think two decades ago, we didn't have social media, people weren't looking at themselves all day. You saw yourself when you went to the mirror, but now look, here we are.

We're recording remotely today and for the next two hours, we're staring at an image of ourselves. That's really odd. I don't think we're meant to look at ourselves so much. I don't think that's good for us. In the olden days, they didn't have crystal clear mirrors everywhere. They didn't look. You're just not meant to look at yourself for hours and hours and hours. Are you? So I think anyway, there's this unspoken, silent, probably quite unrelenting pressure that a lot of people feel and also in a world in which youth is so prized. But I think the

fact that the study found that Botox barely moves the needle of how youthful or romantically desirable someone appears, you know, as in it's really, really not moving. It doesn't change how competent, intelligent or trustworthy someone seemed, as you said, and it's barely changing how attractive they are versus smiling. And I just, I don't know, I just think everyone's so welcome to whatever they want to do. But I think, I think think everyone's so welcome to whatever they want to do, but I think it's

all just for me, it's trying to take the pressure off everybody to feel like they have to be a certain person, be a certain way. And it's easier to say that than to do it. But I think when you actually have hard evidence that it's not necessarily even achieving what you want it to achieve, and again, this isn't fear mongering, but obviously, as with anything where you're having a foreign substance put into your body, there are risks involved. I know. I saw a headline, Ella, yesterday of Botox gone wrong on several people. And that was quite scary in itself because I don't think I've ever been, and I'm happy to try

little things like baby Botox. And I know you're trying the microneedling and things, but fillers do scare me and these stories of things that have to be dissolved in your face and I just see the negative side as well. But a positive on smiling, I will say, is that it triggers a release of feel-good neurotransmitters. So that can also lift your mood and I remember us discussing a headline at the very beginning back in January, or might have been early February, where if you put on a smile, you can automatically lift your mood that whole day anyway. But that's a very difficult thing to do, isn't it? Or just be going around like, yay!

Grinning at everybody, like artificially. And then you're called fake. So it's very difficult to navigate. Well, she really is. Anyway, that's not to say do it or don't do it, but I think it is to say that actually, I guess like all the things we talk about, the little things like smiling, putting on some mascara, change your attractiveness more. It's cheaper, it's easier. And obviously that doesn't come with any side effects, which I think it's just a powerful reminder that actually,

maybe we could strip back more of our lives. And then this was just a side note because apparently I'm full of side notes today. I love it. That was another interesting nugget or not. This was in the Times and it said that men are now outspending women on Botox and fillers, which I just, I don't know, didn't expect that. And the report found that 23% of men aged 18 to 34 are now using injectables compared to 20% of women in the same

age group. So obviously, I think often we feel or I certainly perceive that women feel more pressure with their appearance than men. But I think that's a really remarkable stat that men are clearly feeling the same pressure, but maybe not discussing it. Whereas I think there is quite an open conversation in terms of this pressure that we probably collectively feel. I think we as women, like look at Olivia Atwood's documentary, I think we all openly talk about it.

You know, have you had baby Botox? Oh, are you trying this hydrofacial? You know, we discussed these types of treatments because we're ingrained with beauty treatments, I think, from a young age. Getting your nails done or something exciting. For men, they don't have any of that. So I find it really interesting that stat is higher. I'm actually really surprised by it, if I'm being honest, but maybe I shouldn't be because we are in an equal situation and the social media pressures

and media pressures are taking a toll. I was going to say, I know that that age range is 18 to 34, but I think the pressures come in for women when we hit 35 plus or when lines start to appear, you're tired and it becomes almost like the norm for everybody to go and get these treatments. Are you feeling it? Oh gosh, yeah. You know when we did that headline on the aging, dramatic aging bits and I said, when I turned 34,

I really noticed it. The three bursts of aging. I do feel it sometimes. You know, I can see the bags under my eyes and even at school pick up the other day, someone was telling me they'd had those polynuclear tied things under their eyes. Oh, the salmon sperm.

They've had the salmon sperm. And I'm so scared of anything going in that area, you know, the soft bit under your eye. I just don't think I could, I've got to really psych myself up something like that, that close to my eye. But I do feel it, to be honest with you guys. No one is alone in this conversation. I think everybody feels it. Half of me wants to be like Pamela Anderson, warrior and not caring, go out there and just do every media

feature with no makeup on. But I'm not brave enough. And I'm being honest, I do feel more confident when I have a bit of a tan and I've got some mascara. Who doesn't? But then I read an article about plastic and makeup and now I feel like I need to go back through my whole makeup drawer. Ella, this is too overwhelming. Oh, I was going to give you one more tangent because that's apparently my... Do it, do it.

Yeah, yeah. I was listening to a podcast on my way to this podcast after I dropped the girls at school and it was talking about, okay, this really is a tangent, but Kylie Jenner has come out and she has told people exactly what she asked for, for her boob job. What do you mean what she asked for for a boob job? What do you ask for? The reason I said this was that I think one thing that I am personally just desperate for is more transparency. To this whole point that people feel the pressure to look a certain way, and my sense is because so much of it isn't real. What you see so much of people's image online and when it's online, you can apply filters, you've

obviously got hair and makeup, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But also a lot of people having work that they're not saying about opening. Now, it's their prerogative whether or not they openly say it, but I think there's always been a question. Obviously, the Kardashian-Jenner family have been kind of a center point of the conversation in terms of people feel they've had a lot of procedures and work done, but they have always said they haven't. And Kylie Jenner has come out and has said, yeah, I had a boob job, essentially, this is what I asked my surgeon for, because someone asked her for exactly what she asked the surgeon for, so that they could get the same boob job. Wow.

And so she said who the doctor was, and exactly what she asked for. for so that they could get the same boob job. Wow. And so she said who the doctor was and exactly what she asked for. And then Chris Jenner has been all over the papers and the media in the last week for having some kind of mega facelift or something along those lines. I missed all that. And again, she has confirmed, yep, she has had work done. And anyway, I just wanted to say I think that's brilliant because I was listening to a podcast people like is it good is it not good? And I was like yes it is good because again this whole relenting pressure I think people feel

like they should wake up in the morning and look like someone who's had you know a top surgeon perform work on them and have had two hours to do hair and makeup and has had a stylist and has had the clothes fitted to them and again it's like that isn't what real life looks like ever. No, it's not. Do you know, I've got two recommendations for you all on this subject. Catherine Ryan has the most insanely funny, brilliant podcast called What's Your Age or something. And Katie Price was on it. And I was listening to it in the car when I was driving to London yesterday. And Catherine brings this real element of cynicism and humor in such an intelligent way

in the way she discusses. And she's so transparent with work that she's had done the juggles of real life parenthood. And Katie Price still came out, who we know who's very transparent with all her surgeries. I mean, her whole life has been in the press with the plastic surgery she's had. She's so transparent and said, I still don't look at myself in the mirror and think I'm attractive. And she said, I've had so many surgeries done. She said, the problem is,

if I see something I don't like, and I quote, she said, I look in the mirror, I see something on my face I don't like, I know I can book in the next day to get it fixed and get it changed. And it almost becomes this addictive cycle. And then the second podcast that I listen to, even though I'm not in the age range, is Lisa Snowden and Andy's podcast, We're Not Getting Any Younger. And it's targeted at 50 plus, because the first question is, how do you feel at 50? Do you feel young at 50? And it's a really good conversation. So they're two good listens. If you're into this topic, I think they're different. I love that.

Apparently Katie Price has had 17 boob jobs. So yeah, she mentioned the press have the number incorrect and she mentioned that on the podcast. I can't remember how many it is, but I remember her saying that in the car yesterday. So yeah, go and have a listen. Have a listen. simplicity and professionalism, giving you the peace of mind that you've done all you can today to remove any burden from your loved ones tomorrow. We are your local Dignity Memorial provider. Find us at DignityMemorial.ca. The Dignity Memorial brand name is used to identify a network of licensed funeral cremation and cemetery providers owned and operated by affiliates of Service Corporation International. Picture this. You're halfway through a DIY car fix, tools scattered everywhere, and boom, you realize you're missing a part.

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Just a quick moment of your time to share that my new book The Unprocessed Plate will be out this Thursday. It's come round very quickly and this is a book about lifting you up, being positive, empowering you because the more we know, the more we understand the better food choices we can make for our families, for our own individual health. Now the book has 60 recipes in the back and will be your ultimate go-to guide. I even have how to write a shopping list, how to stock your kitchen, what to look out for on the go, so many different areas but I'm so so grateful for all the support I've received about the unprocessed plate so far and I can't wait to see it landing in your hands this Thursday, June the 19th. I hope you like it.

Right. Headline number three. We'll keep this one short and sweet, but TED talks are getting shorter. What does it say about our attention spans? We have talked a lot about our shortening attention spans over the last few months. So many articles about this, remember the ones from the Financial Times we picked up about how we've reached peak intelligence and it's all downhill from there. But I thought this article was just an interesting add-on to that conversation, which is that TED Talks, which obviously were famous for their 18-minute format, and now being trimmed down to as little as three minutes, because it's basically now impossible to hold the world's attention for a full 18 minutes.

I mean, all I can say is I did a TED Talk and I had to memorize an 18-minute long speech. So three minutes sounds way more doable than the 18 minutes I practiced and rehearsed. But you know, you're right, Hella, it's not just TED. We're seeing the shift everywhere. Short form videos online, you know, one minute explainers, soundbites on social. It's so interesting because the article talks about how our brains are being retrained to crave novelty and constantly switching between tabs or feeds and platforms. And we

just can't focus deeply. And I even find it, I posted a video yesterday online about myth-busting for UPS and it was actually really long and I knew it just wouldn't do well but I thought I'm gonna put it out there because this is what I do I want to give interesting content for those that actually want to see it and sure enough it's like a fraction of the reach that you'd get if you did a 20 second clip versus two minutes or three minutes so our our focus is gone. But the big stats, so in the piece two, a 2022 study by King's College London found that 49% of people thought their attention span was shorter than it used to be. I can agree with that. And 50% wrongly

believe the average adult attention span today is just eight seconds. So, Ella, I think it shows we've internalized this idea. And even if the science doesn't fully back it up, we believe it's true. Exactly. We believe we can only concentrate for eight seconds. And actually, there's a neuroscientist they quoted in the article that I was reading. I forget which because this was picked up again everywhere. I forget which one. So I apologize for that. But they called this a cognitive tax. It's basically like the cognitive tax that our brain is paying every single day because

it's processing just way too much information. So we just don't have the time to absorb anything. And I actually just wanted to pick up on what you were saying with your long form video versus like an eight second viral cottage cheese situation, which is that I guess it's just, we talked obviously last week about how much information online is wrong. And I think it's such a great example of that, which is that ultimately, so little in life and nutrition and health science is the same as black and white. Like there's so much nuance in all of this. There's so many caveats.

There isn't like this one simple answer to anything, but an eight second video only gives space for one second. You know, it's like, you can't bring nuance to eight seconds. It's in fact impossible. It's why actually, if we do go back to, you know, I am really proud of my book and the work I'm able to put out there. But how many people get the opportunity to write a book, where you can display a lot more information, if we're so reliant now on these videos in terms of getting health advice as well, it is just really worrying. We're just rushing through information and we don't even get to the point where we can make changes stick anymore.

This is why I'm obsessed with doing this show with you because I think it just, I don't know, it feels so positive and I hope uplifting for you guys listening, but it does feel like we're at give space for nuance, you know, the whole point of like the red meat studies. We're not saying never eat a piece of red meat ever again, but we are saying like, just be conscious of where it comes from. And you know, some of those benefits may not actually be exactly what it says. And I think it's such a great example. And when it's like, please follow the show, rate the show, share the show is because we just love being able to have an hour long conversation with you all about this. And so we just wanted to grow and continue.

OK, Rhee, tell us headline four. This was actually really positive again. We've got some really lovely positive nuggets here in terms of the end goal. So free school meals to expand and what this could mean for families. So, Ella, did you see this in the paper? I feel like it was everywhere. And there's a proposal that basically all children in England whose families are on universal credit, and that basically means it will support up to 1.7 million children

with a free school meal. It's brilliant. It really is. Ultimately, you know, we know that unfortunately far too many children, their kind of core meal, their hot meal, their big meal each day is at school. So to give this to each day is at school. So to give this to more children is absolutely amazing. I mean, not to be like a negative Nancy here, but I think it really highlights the importance of that meal being nutritious and probably

more nutritious than it currently is. Nonetheless, it's a really positive change. And you know what? In a world where headlines, not just in health and wellness, I mean like across the board feel generally quite terrifying at the moment. And there feels like an inherent lack of positivity. Seeing something like this just, it's a good thing, isn't it? I just couldn't agree more. And I know some of the feedback from our scandal episode, which did so well, we reached number two again, how incredible was the political stance on it. I'm not sure if so many people like that. It's very difficult when a headline is linked to politics and obviously for Ella and I, we're just discussing the headline itself. But I do think that despite that, this is so wonderful. We have to remember that every child

deserves access to nutritious food in this country. And when you have a nutritious meal, you can get improved concentration. You know, more people attend school to begin with, you know, stronger long-term health outcomes Ella, it's just such a simple but powerful intervention and I'm so delighted for it. Me too, I really am. And also, just like as a side note, obviously this is definitely not going to become anywhere like the rest is politics, but also like the government politics, like it is interwoven with the industry. And I think it would be remiss, short sighted, deeply reductive, almost like missing the point if we never brought that into the conversation. Certainly that's how I would feel.

Well, this podcast may run through many different governments, guys. So we might have loads of different angles on everything. Let's see how long we go for. different angles on everything. Let's see how long we go for. I was also going to say, Ella, on another pickup, I tried the five minutes of non-doing, which I forgot to say at the beginning, and guess what happened? What? I fell asleep. Love it! I felt like an old lady. I sat on the sofa outside of my garden, thought, you know what, I'm not reaching for my phone. I'm obviously watching the kids, but I think I was so exhausted. I fell asleep and I got woken up. This is an awful story. I don't know why I'm adding this to the podcast today. My cat had jumped on me meowed and put a mouse next to me on the sofa. Dead or alive? Dead mouse. You can imagine my

reaction. That is what happened in my five minutes of non-doing guys. Lovely. But how wonderful the practice of five minutes of non-doing. Let's move on to what's trending in wellness. Okay, we've got just one trend this week because it's a really big one. The headline reads, TikTok Bands Hashtag Skinny Talk and the Cult of the quote unquote skinny girl. Funnily enough, I actually wanted to talk about Skinny Talk and started putting it in the show notes before this band came in, so it was very timely, which is absolutely mad.

There had been this, I don't know if you had come across it, there was this article in an online publication called The Cup, which is part of the New York Times group. They had basically done this deep dive into a 23-year-old model and influencer. She's called Liv Schmidt, I think that's how you say her surname. It basically was a huge expose on Skinny Top and this online skinny culture and what it means. Actually, I took quite a deep dive into her content to understand what it was all about. This was before it got banned after the hashtag ban. It really was absolutely staggering. She had built a subscriber-based Instagram community called the Skinny Society.

It charged $20 a month for access to her food diaries, workout routines, and private group chats. And basically the private group chats is where all the action for Wanted for a Better Word was happening. And you had this huge number of people in there, and they were all sharing with each other skinny inspiration basically and quotes and inspiration to not eat certain things. The cut basically revealed that actually they had done this investigative piece into all

of the different group chats and showed loads of people were underage. There were people posting about their high school graduation in there, sharing super, super restrictive meal plans, competing as to who could eat less, posting about feeling dizzy, fatigued, losing hair. There was once a former subscriber, a woman called Emma, she's a 37-year-old teacher. She was talking directly to the cut about her experience in the group. She said, quote, unquote, they're all so obsessive. So it's hard not to become obsessive too. It's like this little cult of being skinny. And I think obviously it wasn't just this woman,

Liv Schmidt in there. She was huge. She had over 755,000 followers on TikTok, apparently earning more than $130,000 a month for these subscriptions. But I think she was the kind of key driver of Skinny Talk. And it was just, I don't know why I was so surprised by it, I guess, all things considered.

I just feel sad. I just feel so sad. It's clearly disordered eating, you know, and for it to be disguised in a community online in this way, and it attracts vulnerable individuals and young people that really should be focusing on their school, not trying to shrink down. What's so, so disturbing is I wonder, does just banning the hashtag stop the society itself? Probably not, right? I'm guessing she can still function and do this and still profit off it and prey on people's eating disorders. Yes. So her TikTok, as far as I understand, when I looked into this, this was yesterday,

was now a private account. So you have to click to do it. But I saw in Mary Claire yesterday, TikTok banned Skinny Tok, but a different spelling of Skinny Tok, S-K-N-I-Y Tok, quickly took its place, which I think just summarises the whole thing. It's been banned, but people have immediately essentially come back with another thing. I think it's worth noting TikTok has been downloaded more than 3.5 billion times, which in itself is extraordinary. Nearly half of those users, so over one and a half billion of the users, are between 18 and 24 So they are really, really young. And obviously we know again, like one in six children, this is in the UK, but one in six children, young

people in the UK now experience mental health issues. And we all know these different online pressures and these visual pressures we were talking about earlier. And I think when you just put it all together, it's really scary and I think people were campaigning for this to be banned. It has now been banned. Obviously that is inherently positive but obviously as we've seen people have just come in with a different version of the same thing. It's not enough to ban a hashtag, they need to take these accounts down. So not on TikTok but Meta have their spokesperson Andy Stone posted on X saying, X is obviously what Twitter's now called, but he said, this account is no longer able to offer subscriptions or use any of

our monetization tools and we've restricted it so it's only visible to people over 18. I think it's just really shocking how much of this community exists. And I think as you said, it's this really complicated thing where when you first see it on the surface, it's like, certainly what I saw was quotes about like kind of essentially being your best self, which you're like, okay. And then you start to get into it. And as we see, it's like competitive restriction. And that's so disturbing and concerning. Yeah. It's like the diet culture of the noughties and nineties coming back on TikTok, the drive for thinness, the competitive. Like the old magazines, the headlines on which celebrities lost the most weight, putting their weight. You remember that Chris Evans clip where they

weigh Victoria Beckham? It's like, oh, well done, you lost your weight after your baby. It's so, so toxic. But what's so scary to me is that that was a moment on TV, whereas now it's the 24 seven access to the same conversation. And that obviously just ramps up to a totally different degree. Anyway, it's so far from what a health and wellness is meant to be. It is very far from it. Guys, this is a deceptive hashtag and community. I really hope nobody, and I really feel sad.

If you are really struggling, there is help out there. There are so many free outlets as well in this country. You've got Beat, of course, that you can go and check out. They've got the most incredible website. You've got the equivalent to that NIDA, I think it's called in America. And every country should have its own eating disorder charities but will have, I'm sure they're dealing with this and getting issues related to this every day. Body image starts as young as three in children, especially young girls with how they feel about themselves. That's the statistics we have. So I'm glad that you shone a light on this Ella. Thank you for raising our awareness on this.

I'd call it a dangerous trend. It really is. And I have to say, the cut, you can read some articles before it goes behind a paywall. And I really recommend this article on the cult that was behind Skinny Talk. I'll put it in the show notes because it's quite a long, but just a really interesting read and what was going on and how toxic it was. They did a really good investigation into it, which was a huge part of getting this hashtag banned.

Emma Thurman Thank you, Ella. Thank you for bringing that up. Let's move on to listener questions. But first, I've got an interesting comment that we had about the sauna episode. So we had a comment saying, just so you know, I'm from Scandinavia and we're not allowed to wear swimwear in saunas because of the plastic and the temperature. So of course they all go naked with a towel, like we described that clip from Frozen the musical running in and out of the sauna just with your towel covering you. But apparently that's because of the plastic. So I had to delve into Ella and I looked a little bit further. Actually the main reason behind going naked into a sauna is more hygienic than anything else because of the sweat and the body oils accumulating like on a sauna bench. People want you to have a towel around your skin and just with your skin rather than anything

else. But the clothes, because clothes trap heat and clothes obviously trap sweat. But I will say that makes sense to me with the plastic in swimwear. I think a lot of us aren't aware that whilst this comment came from a place about plastics, it just is complete common sense. And part of the culture, so there's a cultural norm that nudity and saunas is deeply ingrained in some cultures like Finland purely because, you know, everyone's meant to be equal in their natural state, regardless of appearance or attire. So it's like a sense of unity and mutual acceptance. I mean, I'm not confident to go into a sauna naked. I'm just throwing that out there. But I love the

philosophy behind it. I love it. Kind of weirdly tracks back to the smile being more effective than Botox and that whole conversation. It's like just, just accepting all of us for who we are. Maybe our headline should be nudity and smile more. Get nude and smile more. But we do have a listener question, which leads on actually, because it was from one of our listeners in Finland. So thank you very much. She said she's a big fan and the podcast has helped her work on her relationship with food,

which is just incredible to hear Ella. But she is confused about sugar because a lot of the recipes she sees, she says, are using maple syrup or coconut sugar. Does it mean they're better? It's a really great question and I'm sure we could spend a deep dive on it, but re-imagine you can give us like a brilliant succinct and then we can probably do a deep dive on it another day. What is the science? Sugar's sugar, Ella. I mean, I think ultimately there's a quality of sugar. So if you use coconut sugar, there's small traces of vitamins and minerals within that. But is it enough to actually say, eat sugar to get those vitamins and minerals? No, you're better off getting it from fruit, veg and whole grains. But if you look at things like agave syrup, which

is marketed as a healthier alternative, it's actually one of the worst sugar alternatives purely because sugar in itself as a molecule is made of 50% glucose and 50% fructose. And I think we need to spend a different episode to go into the science on the reasoning behind that actually, because it's a lot. There's also ethical conversations with sugar. The reason I choose maple syrup predominantly at home is because of the sustainability aspect. But again, there's a quality of maple. It's still the same sugar,

or hit my system in a similar way to regular cane sugar. But maple syrup doesn't involve using the bees. And as we know, bees are becoming endangered in this country. We need to look after our bees. We really need to protect them because nearly, all the food we get is because of bees and pollination. There's a difference again in the type of honey you find in a plastic squeezy bottle versus honey you get in a glass jar purely because things are either polyfloral, meaning the bees have gone to many different flowers, or are they from a monofloral area, which is the

links that people say between hay fever and local honey. There's potential links with how they pollinate. There's some health benefits with manuka honey, but it's really expensive, but there's some antibacterial qualities there. But you don't get those benefits in the regular honey and squeezy jars. And I felt like marketing really goes for it with honey. And honey's really good for you, honey's great for you.

Well, actually it's still sugar and it's not doing our bees any good to be purchasing this highly refined honey. And it's highly dependent on which kind you buy as you're saying. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I'll get into the science another time on sugar, but just so you know, sugar's a way more complex issue as well. But sugar is sugar and my stance is use what you enjoy that tastes good, that's ethical.

What about high fructose corn syrup? Obviously that's not really an issue in the UK or Europe as much, but obviously that's used so widely in the US and the fructose element of that is more of a challenge, right? Oh yeah. I mean, I would say UPF Central there, we're talking about a highly refined source of sugar, which hits your bloodstream really quickly that is not good for our health. We don't use it actually in the UK for that very reason, but the equivalent in the health marketing is agave syrup and golden syrup and things that have gone through a lot of

structural change in the processing of the sugar itself. I would try and steer clear of high fructose corn syrup if you're in the States or other countries that use it a lot when you see them in the ingredients list. And I guess, again, this is where this could become like an hour long conversation in and of itself. But I think one of the things you mentioned when we were talking about that red meat study earlier, that actually, again, we're talking about single food in isolation, which is not how anyone eats, nor is that the kind of indicator of your diet. But I think, again, the same is relevant here, whereas actually, like, what's the food matrix? Because if you're

having healthy fats and lots of fiber, that's what's going to really make a difference in terms of the impact of sugar versus if it's all highly refined, and then you're going to get these much bigger blood sugar spikes, which can make you feel quite tired. 100%. I mean, sometimes, you know, I mean, to give you any reassurance, I'm a nutritionist, I have a very good general diet, I do cook with regular sugar sometimes in recipes, there's no harm in using it. If your diet is good, like Ella said, look at the context of your life and what's working for you. But a lot of these marketing things on sugar alternatives

are just trying to sell you sugar. I will say maple syrup is one of the most delicious flavors in the world. I love maple syrup. And again, you've got to be partial to that taste because it's very distinctive. And it is actually the most, I'd say, ethical option over honey. I would say if you're looking at it from that way and you wanted your bit for the planet, that's probably a better one to pick than honey. I'll tell you what, my sister-in-law is Canadian and she brought that from Canada from where

her brother lives in rural Canada on a farm, fresh maple syrup from their tree. What does she put one of those metal things in it like pours out? It was sensational. Anyway, I am full of unnecessary aside today, but it really was the best. You know what? I think our episode today has been the complete opposite to the one last week with just so many different pickups, but it's been a really interesting one for us to discuss. I've loved it.

Me too. Let us know what you guys think. As always, thank you for being here. And as we've said, we just love doing this show. So the more you can share it, follow us, rate it, review it, post a comment the bigger the reach that we'll get. So thank you guys we really appreciate it and have a brilliant brilliant day.