The Wellness Scoop - Building Exceptional Relationships

Episode Date: April 27, 2021

We talk to Stanford lecturers David Bradford and Carole Robin about the six characteristics of an exceptional relationship and their relevance to all relationships in our lives from friends to family and colleagues. We look at how to shift out relationships along the continuum towards exceptions, how to foster interpersonal mindfulness, the importance of becoming both more curious and more vulnerable and the role of technology.   David Bradford and Carole Robin: Connect See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Samsung Galaxy. Ever captured a great night video only for it to be ruined by that one noisy talker? With Audio Erase on the new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, you can reduce or remove unwanted noise and relive your favorite moments without the distractions. And that's not all. New Galaxy AI features like NowBrief will give you personalized insights based on your day schedule so that you're prepared no matter what. Buy the Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra now at samsung.com. Hi and welcome to our podcast with me Ella Mills. Delicious Ways to Feel Better is a weekly show

focused on everything that matters to us at Deliciously Ella. And we really believe that feeling good is about a holistic 360 degree approach to our lifestyles. And that in that wellness is about so much more than just simply what we eat or how we exercise. It's also about our relationships, both with others and ourselves, our mindset, our sleep patterns, managing our stress levels, meditation, mindfulness and just how we start to look after ourselves on a day-to-day basis. So on this podcast each week we'll be breaking down all of these different topics, looking at absolutely everything that impacts on both our mental and our physical health and sharing small simple changes that'll hopefully inspire you to feel that bit better. And so today that means looking at our relationships, which is going to be an absolutely brilliant topic. I'm very excited to get into it. To give you a little bit of an update of what we've been up to at Delicious Ciela, actually this week marks our five-year wedding anniversary, which is extraordinary.

I can't quite believe how much has happened in five years, but that's been absolutely lovely to celebrate. We were meant to be up in Scotland in Skye, which our daughter's named after, but unfortunately with lockdown that wasn't to be. So we're going to go in July instead. And instead we've been just in London, but we have been able to mark the first bit of construction work on our new cafe plans. So we have been working on a cocktail menu. We are really getting the menu plans up and running. So we're going to be switching and having proper table service, proper dinner service. We've got an alcohol license, an outdoor seating license. So it's going to be a proper full plant-based experience. And we're really hoping that it's going to be this way of showcasing to everybody

that plant-based food can be so delicious, so interesting, so diverse, so abundant, so much more than just what you think when you think about plant-based food. So we're really excited to try and get really innovative there. And then the other bit of news, which we haven't been able to get out to go and see, but we're hoping to do this summer is actually we have been really doing some exciting things with Delicious Cielo internationally. We had to change quite a lot of plans last year because of the pandemic, but we've been working on some smaller things. So we've got some new products launching into super value in Ireland.

So you'll find our dipped almonds there very soon as well and our crackers. And then there's already our breakfast cereals and lots of our other products. And then in Switzerland, you will now find us in Co-op, but also Migros, which is a really big launch for us,

something we're really proud of. So it's exciting to see those steps start to come to fruition. And anyone else across the EU, you can also shop on our EU shop on DeliciousCielo.com. You can get things like our letterbox snacks, our best of EU box, oat bars, caramel cups, lots and lots and lots of delicious things, which is very exciting. So getting into today's episode, today we're going to be looking, as I said, about the importance of relationships. And this has come up time and time again on the podcast, and actually lots of different interesting studies and experts that we've spoken to as well have showed the extent to which these

relationships are so important to the point that they can be the number one predicator of our long-term health, which is absolutely extraordinary. So our guests today David Bradford and Carol Robin have been teaching a transformational course on the subject of relationships at Stanford University. I think I'm right in saying it's actually the most popular MBA course there and it's actually called the touchy-feely course but as we'll come on to later although it sounds like a soft subject it's such an important meaty deep and meaningful topic. And we're going to be looking at how we can build deeper, stronger, more robust and more meaningful relationships with family, friends and colleagues, because that's their view that the relationships across our life should be meaningful and purposeful and exceptional. So welcome to the podcast, David and Carol. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you, Ella. Glad to be here. So can we just start right at the beginning? First of all, love the book. I think it's absolutely brilliant. And I think feels very topical at the moment after a year of Zoom conversations, which is ironic, given the fact that we're talking to each other online. Connect feels really an important topic. You talk about in Connect the importance of an exceptional relationship. Can we just start with how you define an exceptional relationship? Yes, we define it in terms of six characteristics, and this is what we

have seen in working with clients, working with students. One is, to what extent could I be myself rather than having to spin an image? Second one is, to what extent could I build conditions where you can be yourself, where we can really get to know each other? The third is, in doing that, can we have the sort of understanding that the information I share, you won't use against me, and I won't use against you, so it builds trust. Can we really be honest with each other and not pussyfoot around, not beat around the bush?

Fifth, can we disagree? Because in any relationship, there's going to be disagreements, even conflict. Can we not only disagree, but can we resolve it in a way that further strengthens the relationship? And sixth, are each of us committed to the other's growth and development? Now, each of these are on a continuum. All relationships are on a continuum. But when you're high on these six, you get into what we call exceptional. Why build exceptional relationships? Why does finding relationships in which those six characteristics exist, why does that matter? where I can trust you, where I can be myself, in essence, it takes less effort. It's freer. But not only that, it's validating. Because in being myself and being accepted by you, the real me is, in a sense, approved and accepted. We don't need to be accepted by everybody. That's

too high a bar. But if I know that the David, the real David, is accepted by Carol, because I think we have that sort of relationship, then I can show more of myself and I can also take risks and I can learn and I can grow. So I think that we can learn from all relationships. But when it's exceptional, Carol tells me what I screw up, what I do something wrong. And I don't feel hurt because I feel cared for by Carol. And in that, I guess, as far as I'm understanding it, that means on a personal and a professional level, allowing these exceptional relationships to exist then allows us all to progress further with goals, with where we want to get to because we're able to feel comfortable enough and vulnerable enough to push ourselves to the next level. Yes, I think that's a wonderful add. I grow more.

I learn more about myself when I'm in an exceptional relationship. That's part of what's magical about it. Not only do I feel seen and known and accepted and not judged, but it frees me up to grow and learn more. Because as you just noted, I feel safe enough to experiment and to show more parts of myself and to learn more. David and I used to use this in the classes. You know, a lobster, when it hatches, this little baby lobster, it grows a shell. But it can't continue to grow unless it molts. And when it molts, it's very vulnerable because it doesn't have a shell and has to go find a little cave to hang out in and then grow and then grow a new shell and then swim around until it's time to grow again. And that's kind of what comes to mind for me when I'm in an exceptional relationship, I feel I can mold. So if we look at these six hallmarks and shifting along the continuum

towards exceptional, can we break each one of them down and understand a little bit more about what they mean and how we progress through them? Sure. Why don't we start with becoming more known? You know, how do I become more known to you? And how do I create conditions where you can become more known to me? So we have to start with disclosure. I have to be willing to tell you a little bit about me. And that's why one of the things we talk about in the book a lot is that the experiment is to allow you to know me a little bit more and see how that goes. That's why we talk about the 15% rule in the book. So I have my comfort zone where I don't think twice about what I say to you. I can say I went whitewater rafting. And that's a fact.

And it tells you a little bit about me. It's not very risky. I don't think twice about it. And then I can tell you that I went whitewater rafting and it was terrifying. Now I've included a feeling. It's a little riskier because maybe you saw me as the kind of person who would never feel fear. So one of the things that we talk a lot about in the book is A, the importance of feelings, because naming feelings and telling you how I'm feeling, especially right now, is a way of you knowing me better, not just facts about me. As David likes to say, most people think of disclosure as something that's fattening, illegal, or immoral.

On the other hand, you know, we think about disclosure as learning something about me that actually is important to me and matters to me, tells you a little bit more about who I am. And often that includes feelings. And so we're probably not well advised to just tell you everything because A, I'm going to freak myself out and B, I'm probably going to freak you out. But I can tell you a little bit more about me than I might be comfortable. And then we call that 15% outside our comfort zone. And then depending on how that goes, I didn't freak myself out. I didn't freak you out. Maybe you reciprocated with 15%. And now I feel comfortable going 15% beyond that. And that's how we both learn and grow and how we grow our relationship incrementally.

When we used to ask students, what's the first word that comes to mind when we say disclosure? They say vulnerability. And then we say, so what are the words that come to mind when we say vulnerability? Now they come up with, you know, weak, scary, all kinds of words. And then occasionally, after a while, one of them will say, courage. Bingo. Sometimes if we can shift the way we think about vulnerability and risk-taking as coming from a place of courage in the service of building trust, then we hold it very differently. So where does your relationship with yourself fit into that? Because obviously this is all about building relationships with others, but it seems to me listening to what you're saying, Carol, that it's to come to vulnerability,

which I think is something that often holds a level of fear, as you said, does take this sense of courage and this ability to be open and to be comfortable enough in your own skin to take a leap of faith and step forward and expose parts of yourself, as you said, that, you know, even if it's 15%, I'm sure there's still fears of judgment and nervousness of what people think as you start to label those emotions. As you said, maybe people think you're someone that never feels fear. And then you bring this vulnerability to the table and you say, yes, of course I do. How does your relationship with yourself fit into that? Well, this goes back to something David said a moment ago, which is when I take the risk of showing you a part of me that I'm worried will make you think less of me and you think more of me because of that part of me, then my relationship with myself changes and grows. A part of me that I thought I should keep hidden turns out to be a part of me that I

should actually share more of. And I've developed a mental model, a belief that I have to keep this part secret or hidden away. And there's nothing more freeing and liberating than to have someone else say, oh, gosh, Carol, I'm so glad you trusted me enough to tell me that. But I don't discover that unless I take a little risk. And then based on that, another risk. And if I could add on that, every time we share a little bit, we become very dependent on that person's reaction. But one of the wonderful things about getting a lot of feedback is that I see how many

people, not everybody, responds to me. And I build what we call an internal gyroscope that I know myself. So if I say something and Ella, you don't like it, I'm not devastated. I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's me and I can't please everybody. So the wonderful thing about the risk-taking that Carol's talking about, the more you do it, the more you get other people's reactions, the more you get a fuller picture of yourself and are therefore resilient to the times when you are rejected or disapproved of. And the more data you collect, the more choices you have. So an underlying theme in the book is the more skill and competence you have, and the bigger your toolbox is, the bigger the range of choices you have in an interaction with another human being. And every interaction with another human being is an opportunity to learn about yourself about

them about what builds relationship that's what's so cool and exciting i completely agree and i think i have a question on kind of both of your points there so you know david you said we share so little and carrie you're talking about these these interactions and it was a question for later on but i think we have to ask it now which is about how this works in the digital age that we live in because as as David said which I think was I found very interesting is we actually do share so little but I think especially perhaps for people who spend a lot of their time online have online profiles across various social media platforms there's a sense that we share a lot and we share a lot. And we share a lot because perhaps we see a lot from people, you know, I see photos of friends and people I used to go to school with and, you know, so on and so forth all the time on Instagram. So I think that they're sharing lots and I know

everything about them. And we're having these constant interactions with people. But the depth is so minimal. But it's easy to forget that because there's such a, actually such an intense number of interactions within an unbelievable number of people that I wonder if we're kind of going for quantity versus quality there. How do you see this coming in? I actually think the digital era has really made things worse for two reasons. One is, I think I know what's going on for Ella because I see her Instagram and I see her Twitter and I see her Facebook and occasionally I get on

a Zoom call with her. And what the quantity does is it distracts me and it lulls me into thinking I know what's going on for Ella when I really don't know what's going on for Ella. We could have a five-minute conversation in which you pulled out the vocabulary of feelings from the appendix in the book, and you told me how you were feeling right now or how you were feeling about that picture that you just posted. And I would learn more about you in those five minutes than I could possibly learn from reading 100 posts. So that's the first thing I'll say. The second thing I'll say is that in the era of Zoom and 17 other platforms, what I call Hollywood squares, I don't know, you're probably not old enough to even know what that means. In the era of Hollywood squares, we have to double down on what we're talking about. It's even more

important to do this because the fact that we can't be in person means we're not having the benefit of picking up as much of the nonverbal signals that normally inform us about what's going on with someone else. And so we have to rely even more on what we say, on the words. I just want to share an experience that happened recently. We had friends, couples, we thought we knew them well. And they'd talk about going skiing and they seemed happy. They talked about their kids. They talked about this. And we were shocked to learn when they got a divorce, we had no sense of what was really going on with them. And not even a hint that there had been some conflict or they're dealing with it.

And I wonder to what extent we think we have to present this image. And I think that's part of what Facebook does, which makes us, as you were saying, Ella, a series of superficial relationships, which at least I find not very satisfying. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings.

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and well, I mean, not that the concept of perfect exists, but striving towards perfectionism is replacing the vulnerability. It's interesting when you said perfection, there's some imagined image of what you're going to like, or what you're going to be attracted to, or what you're going to find something that results in you investing more time in our relationship. And it turns out that a lot of times I'm wrong. And that being me is way more attractive and compelling than this image that I'm spinning that David talked about.

And for CEOs and founders in the valley where I work, this is especially difficult because they think they always have to present an image of crushing it. Everything's just fantastic. They have to tell their investors they're crushing it. They have to tell their people they're crushing it. They have to tell their wife they're crushing it. They have to tell their people they're crushing it. They have to tell their wife they're crushing it or their husband or their partner. And then that leaves them in a place where nobody in their life really knows what's going on for them. And that leads to tremendous loneliness and a sense of depression, actually. I think also what it speaks to is, back to the question you asked

before, Ella, about why relationships. Do I want a relationship with Carol so that I can talk about myself and get my own approval? Or do I want to do that because I want to know Carol? And if I want to know Carol, I'm going to be more curious. I'm going to be less concerned about myself. And I think it's in the Zen of tennis where they say that in playing tennis, if you pay all your attention, are my feet right? Is my arm cocked? The ball goes by you. What you want to look at is you want to look at that spot in the other court. And I think that if we focused more on, gee, you look like an interesting person. I'd like to get to know you, not I want to get your approval of me. We'd have different sorts of relationships. It's funny when you're saying this, because I totally agree. I think there's

a lot we can learn about how we can be better friends, colleagues, more open to the people around us. But one question on technology that must drive you absolutely nuts when you see people just standing there in coffee shops and on their phone and not even noticing people around them. I've made a very conscious effort over the last two, three months now to not take my phone with me. Do you know what? It's really embarrassing to tell you, but the reason is, is that my my daughter my elder daughter's 20 months and the other day this is what prompted it she literally took my phone out my hand and went no no no no no and threw it and I just thought do you know what she's I mean I was writing an email for work and I just thought do you know what you're completely right

I'm not being present with you whatsoever I'm here but I'm not building a relationship because I'm not focused on it and that was was a turning point for me. And I've found it so interesting. Having put it down, I use it for work, I use it for making a phone call, and that is it. And it is so interesting to notice how many more interactions that you have as a result. It's a great observation. Yeah, it is. It's extraordinary. It's just all these little conversations with the barista in the coffee shop or just, you know, on the bus, whatever it is, but when you're not just so in your own world, how you open up to others. And it's the word curiosity because you've got a little bit more time to think because you're just staring into space perhaps at moments and it gets that going. So how do we be better friends on the other side?

How do we do that sense of kind of active listening, of self-reflection when people say things rather than jumping at it and taking things personally so you can have those honest conversations and create a space in which people feel they can be vulnerable with us? Well, I think you've put your finger on it in terms of to what extent do we really listen or do I wait until you finish so that I can talk? And so many conversations are like that. So just what you had shared, if we had time, you know, there's about five or six things I'd like to know. I'd like to know about your relationship to your children and see what it's like these days with you working and having

children and all the stuff that you do. There's a lot that you allude to that if I were truly curious, I could ask these sort of questions which get to know you. And I think that if I really want to know you, that's going to come over and you're going to be more likely to share even more personal things, which is going to gender even more questions on my part. Lyndon Johnson once made the observation, he said, when I'm talking, I don't learn anything. And I always like to learn. I want to also go back to as a kindred spirit on the mindfulness practice and meditation, which I personally find a lifesaver. Some of what we're talking about is interpersonal mindfulness. So the more I can slow myself down and be present with you, the more I learn about

you and me. We talk in the book about these two antenna, one that's oriented towards picking up signals on what might be happening for you and one that picks up signals on what's happening for me. And the more I slow myself down and the more mindful I am, the more I can pick up the more nuanced signals from both those antenna. And here again, technology is not our friend. Because sometimes we rely on sensing something that's going on for someone else when we're with them in person, it's harder to sense when we're on a screen together. Yeah, I hear that. I completely, completely agree. And one of the questions I had in that is, I guess, to me, that feels especially true when you're maybe having more challenging conversations where it's more emotional. It's about a more complex topic, maybe with someone in your family or even at work where you have very, very different opinions and someone effectively needs to win because a decision needs

to be made. How do you feel that that comes in there? Because to me, that feels particularly important for us to be able to listen to for us to be able to kind of take a step back and process the information. But I think, you know, you talk a bit about constructive criticism and how we can respond well to criticism and take feedback on board. And I think that's an area that people often struggle with and brings potentially a lot of conflict into a relationship that maybe doesn't need to be there because we can be quite quick to respond and create these barriers and the sense of defense of no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So I wondered if you had any thoughts there or advice on how to,

because we need to have difficult conversations to be honest with each other. I feel that's important. I like that you say it's a touchy-feely course, but actually these soft skills, they're difficult and they're important and they can have difficult conversations attached to them. Well, I think, again, I think you put your finger on it when you said how often we need to win. So you have a different opinion than I do. Rather than my jumping right in to try to point out why you're wrong, could I again get curious? I mean, why does a bright person like you have that different opinion? That would be interesting. And we don't always have to reach a conclusion, reach an agreement, or show that my position is right. And I may learn

something, or we may see how we see the world differently. So I think that's the first thing of can we get away from having to win, having to prove that my belief is right. I think also in terms of the feedback, at Stanford in the GSB, we say feedback is a gift. And so often we use it as a bludgeon, not as a gift. And I think that if you define feedback like we do in the book of saying, I have crucial information that you need to be more effective, because you don't know the impact of your behavior. And if I can have the concern that I want to make our relationships better, I want to make sure that you meet your goals, then feedback is a gift. It may not immediately feel like a gift, but if I could have that

orientation, I can be more likely to raise it and raise it in an appropriate way. That is, on your behavior and the impact on me and not make attributions about your motives or intentions or personality. That's where we get into trouble. And in fact, there's a model in the book, which is a little cumbersome to describe, especially if you don't have the benefit of the picture. But the essence of it is that in any interaction between two people, there are three realities, which means I know my intent in doing something and saying something. And I also know what I do and say. So reality number one, my intent, how I see things.

Reality number two, my behavior. Reality number three is the impact of that on you. But I don't know that until you tell me. And the minute I think I know, and in fact, worse yet, say that I know and am wrong, what I'm really going to do is make you defensive and move us away from wanting to figure out what the real problem is. You know, a classic example of this is I'm talking and you're not making eye contact and I see that you're distracted, you know, you're looking around and I don't get much back other than, so behavior, you didn't make eye contact and you said, when I say you're not listening, I don't know whether you're listening or not. I'm not in your head. When I say, I feel that you don't care. That's A, not a feeling. And B,

I don't know whether you care or not. That's reality number three, the one that is unknown to me. All I know is that your behavior is having an impact on me, but the impact on me is that I'm not feeling heard or I'm feeling dismissed. This is why it's called touchy-feely. The course is called Touchy Feely because the emphasis is on expressing emotion and feelings, both in the disclosure part of what we've been talking about in creating closer relationships and in providing feedback effectively. on the other thing David said is, if I'm doing something that's annoying you, or that is distancing you, or is this creating a problem, and you don't tell me, what's going to happen? I'm just going to keep doing it. And it's going to get worse. That's why we also talk about pinches in the book. You're sitting with data, to David's point, important data for me. Because by the way, if I'm doing this and it's annoying

you, chances are it's annoying someone else in my life, maybe many other people in my life. And boy, aren't you giving me a gift by saying, you know, Carol, when you interrupt me, I feel more and more irritated and less and less inclined to continue to engage in the conversation. That's the impact. And then you can add, and I'm telling you this because, always a nice idea to include your intent. I'm telling you this because I don't want to feel irritated and have less inclination to engage in a conversation with you. I care about our relationship. And I think I owe it to you for you to know that when you do this, it has this impact. Imagine what would happen if more people spoke to each other that way. Imagine the difference in families, in communities, in schools, and certainly in organizations. I mean, maybe even in the government. It's a whole different

way of interacting. Yeah. Particularly if you're able're able as you said to be able to then take that feedback on board is constructive and meant with kindness and intent and therefore you're not you're not reacting to it Carrie you just mentioned pinches and I know it's something that you wrote about a lot as far as I understood that's those little kind of bugbears that build up. So those things that we were just saying that, you know, maybe you keep doing that become frustrating and that we're not great at letting out and then they build up and they build up and they build up and suddenly, perhaps not feeling heard that often by your partner or feeling a little bit dismissed by someone that you work with.

Once it's not a problem, but it keeps building up. And then suddenly it goes from you having a good relationship to actually having a bad relationship and no longer just that one thing annoys you, but actually everything annoys you. And it feels like we probably all too easily that our relationships get to that point. Yep. You're absolutely right. That's why we say pinches, sometimes it's fine to let them go. But again, you hit it on the nail, which is if the behavior continues to bug you and other stuff starts getting attached to it, then the pinch becomes a crunch. And now you've got a problem. You've got a much bigger problem that could have been much more easily resolved when it was smaller. And so that's why in the book,

we talk about how often we say, ah, it's not worth it. It's a small thing. It's not worth it. Substitute the pronoun. Substitute the it for I, you, or we. I'm not worth it. You're not worth it. We're not worth it. And then ask yourself again, whether it's not worth it. You're not worth it. We're not worth it. And then ask yourself again, whether it's not worth raising. Love that. That is such a great way of looking at it. I know. I mean, obviously for so many people where they've just been at home with maybe their partner, flatmate for a year, I think it's been, it's been an interesting test on relationships, hasn't it? And I definitely, I really like that because I think it's so easy to say, you know what, I'm busy. I'm not going to have the conversation. And then a few weeks go by and you find yourself just, they're just annoying you.

And actually, it was just this tiny little thing you could have nipped in the bud on day one if you were kind of comfortable to have the conversation. And as we just start to wrap this up, from what I've heard from everything you're saying, there's kind of just a few key ingredients in a relationship which is curiosity vulnerability courage to have that vulnerability and then haven't quite decided what the word is the best summary is the fourth thing that I keep hearing but it feels it's a kind of mindful active listening role to make space for the other person and and kind of really engage in how they may feel and make space for that. Was there anything else that you feel really are, or whether you agree with that summary, of those kind of key words that really sum up exactly what we should be really aware of in building these exceptional relationships? Well, I think that's a good summary.

The one I would add is being willing to take risks, being willing to make mistakes. I've had more than one executive who said, I've never made any mistakes. I've only had learning experiences. And if we have this image of perfection, I can't allow myself to take the risk where I might fail. And so I would urge people to relax a bit and be themselves a little bit more and take the risks of doing that and of it not working out, but of learning. I think the other thing to talk about is relationships are all specific. That is, what works with you may not work with somebody else. So it's not that I get a book of how I ought to act in general. It's how I ought to act in this situation. And so let me give an example. We've been trying to be

on good behavior, but Carol and I interrupt each other all the time. And it works out well because she interrupts me and I interrupt her. And we see it as a sign of involvement, engagement, listening to the other, wanting to connect. I had another colleague, but I'll never forget the time, he frowned. And I said, Daniel, what's going on? He said, you interrupted me. I said, so? He said, that's inconsiderate. I went, ooh. Now, is interrupting good or bad? It's a useless statement. It's great with Carol. It's bad with Daniel. So we need to learn to have these conversations so I can adapt how I am with you, which is different than how I am with my wife, Eva, how I am with my kids, how I am with a colleague,

then that's the sort of connection, which is much more personal rather than just instrumental. It's interesting because the concept that I was going to add was growth, a growth mindset. And the idea that, first of all, instead of saying I can't in the immortal words of Carol Dweck, I can't yet, changes the entire meaning. Or I don't do that. I've never done that so far. That's not me, actually. That's not me, actually. That's not me yet. And then embedded in that, and what David was just saying is that not only does one size not fit all across all people with regard to how I need to show up in order to create

a better connection with you, but it changes over time because we're all works in progress. So what might have worked with you 10 years ago may not work as well with you now. So we're back to the more mindful I can, the more aware I can be, and the more constantly we're being real with each other and telling each other what works and what doesn't work. The more our relationship is constantly growing and deepening and becoming more and more fulfilling. I love what you just said in relation to what you said previously, in terms of replacing something with we're not worth it, you're not worth it. Because I think that's a great example of that is if you start to think we're not worth it and I'm not back yet,

or I have not done that before. It's interesting, you can start to see how you can shift the relationships forward. Because do you know what, we are worth it. And I haven't done that before. But I could do it in the future. If you start to have that curiosity, that openness. Well, thank you both so much for your time. I'll put the details of the book Connect in the show notes below for everyone. But so appreciate everyone listening. I hope you enjoyed it. Please do share it with anyone you feel it would be beneficial with. And we'll be back again next Tuesday. And Carol and David, thank you so much for your time today.

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