The Wellness Scoop - Caggie Dunlop: perfectionism, wanting to fit in and delaying happiness

Episode Date: February 8, 2023

This week Ella is joined by Caggie Dunlop who openly shares her experiences with perfectionism, low self-esteem and the push and pull between fitting in and being true to herself. They candidly discuss Caggie’s experience with perfectionism, delaying happiness, her relationship with alcohol and her body and the challenges of being in the public eye at a young age. Looking at how Caggie moved through this, transforming her relationship with herself.    They discuss: Being torn between wanting to fit in and to be your authentic self The process to understanding the root behind less healthy behaviours The toxic side of a perfectionist mindset and delaying happiness Feelings of unworthiness and self-sabotage Caggie’s catalyst for change and the next steps forwards Finding what lights you up and the tools that help you  Why there’s no one-size-fits-all approach to personal development   Links: Caggie’s book Saturn Returns: Your Cosmic Coming of Age Saturn Returns with Caggie Podcast For new subscribers, use code podcast20 to get 20% off the Feel Better App  Wellness Toolkit from this episode Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit BetterHelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com. Welcome to Wellness with Ella, the Deliciously Ella podcast. This is a podcast that aims to inspire you, to empower you, to leave you feeling uplifted. And each week I want to share what wellness really looks like as we unpack the simple tools that have helped each one of our guests turn a negative into a positive and unlock true happiness and genuine health and by health I don't mean how they look I mean their energy their excitement their fulfillment the question is how can we all get more from life? Our guest today is Kagi Dunlop, who is someone I've been very excited to get on the show. I've been listening to her podcast Saturn Returns for a

while. And I think Kagi is extraordinarily vulnerable in the way that she talks about perfectionism and in delaying happiness until you feel like you're good enough for other people to accept you. So you might know Kagi if you're in the UK as an early cast member of Made in Chelsea, which is the E4 show that set out to shine a light on the lives of affluent 20-somethings living in London's most exclusive postcodes. And at a very young age, she was thrust into the public eye. Almost overnight, it was one of the first reality TV shows in the mainstream, certainly in this country. And she said that was an experience that contributed

to some of her most self-destructive behaviour. And at 27, she moved to America and that's where she started to realise that something wasn't right, that her self-esteem was at rock bottom, that her self-worth was at rock bottom and something started to need to change she describes this period as something that turned her world upside down and she decided that was the moment to address her relationship with herself and unpack these perfectionist traits she was incredibly

honest in this episode i was very very moved when I was re-listening to it, particularly about this sense of waiting to be loved, waiting to be accepted. I think there's a huge amount in this push and pull between fitting in and being who we really are that so many of us can relate to. I think it's a very thought-provoking episode. I know I really did genuinely take a lot from it on a personal level and I'm just very grateful for how vulnerable and how honest she was with us. So I hope you enjoy it and Kagi, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I've listened to a lot of your podcasts. I've been in quite a journey of self-development and self-discovery kind of back end of 2022. And there was a lot of wisdom in your show that was so apt for a lot of what I was thinking about.

So I've got a lot of questions for you. But before we kind of go into that, I wondered if you could introduce yourself to our listeners, obviously from the outside, people might know you from your podcast, hosting your show as an author, as a former TV star and so on. But who do you feel you really are? What would you want people to know about you? That's a really good question. In a shorthand version, I am the host and founder of Saturn Returns, which is a podcast and author of the Saturn Returns book, which is all about kind of initiating into adulthood. And your Saturn Return is something that happens in your late 20s as Saturn returns back to the same place in the

sky it was when you were born. And with it brings this cosmic coming of age really, and a lot of trials and tribulations, a lot of questions, and it can be a challenging time, but it's ultimately one that kind of brings you out the other side a more authentic version of yourself and for those that you know followed me since then I did tv in my early 20s and then I was doing music and so it's been an interesting journey of shifting in identity and careers and then kind of landing on something after my Saturn return that actually happened to be around your Saturn return so yeah today's one of the first days where I feel like I'm emerging and communicating that

version of myself I think because I'm you know speaking with people about the book and everything and it's it's an interesting moment because I felt very disconnected from myself for a large part of my 20s and so kind of after doing all this work and communicating about it is it's kind of quite exciting it's interesting because when I first started listening to your show I didn't know anything at all about astrology I'd never heard of Saturn Returns but I felt that what it represented this moment in your kind of later 20s where you've maybe not quite known who you were and been working through a lot of things and you kind of almost got to confront that to create the life that you really want I felt that was very apt for almost anyone I know it feels like such a transitional period and a really kind of succinct way to talk about

it so you've kind of touched on it there but how are you today how a really kind of succinct way to talk about it so you've kind of touched on it there but how are you today how do you kind of really feel in yourself well what you just mentioned that I call it like the fertile void it's like in our 20s we're kind of trying on different things for size and then we kind of know who we're not but we don't necessarily know who we are annual Saturn return is kind of the unfolding of that and a lot of it is about death and rebirth and letting go of past versions of ourselves so yeah I feel very grounded in who I am today but for the majority of my 20s that was not the case and it was I guess my journey to become you know a more fixed anchored person

really which is ultimately I think what so many people want and what I so want this show to be about because we've spent so long sort of five years or so talking to different doctors and scientists about all the kind of ins and outs of the science of wellness and well-being and why sleep is good for you and what meditation does science of wellness and well-being and why sleep is good for you and what meditation does to your brain and it's been absolutely fascinating but I think what I feel so strongly now and what I really want to kind of delve into is the fact that people are so inspired by people and we all have difficult periods in our life whether it's with our physical health our mental health our emotional health with grief and so on. Sometimes it's kind of cataclysmic and sometimes it's just a series of small events that build up

to a moment where we want to make a change. But I think it sounds to me like you didn't necessarily have one kind of catalyst as opposed to maybe a sort of series of events that led to a fundamental shift in your life. But I wondered if you could kind of take us back to the beginning of, as you said, that period where you're starting to realise this isn't who you are, but you can't quite figure out what that person is. I mean, we could go to school,

we could start in the sort of TV days. Where do we want to go? Let's go all the way back. To school. Let's go, yeah. Okay, because that's quite, well, that's very formative for anyone. When I was 14, I was very introspective. I used to love writing poetry. I was quite, there was a sort of melancholy about me. But intuitively, I kept that quite hidden because I didn't really see other kids or teenagers kind of operating that way and the way that I internalized and

viewed the world I was like there are certain people that seem to have like that are happy that that are aspirational that people that the boys like that the girls want to be and did you feel you weren't one of those people I did not feel like I was one of those people at all and then but I longed to be you know and and the aspects of myself that didn't fit into that I kind of wanted to cut away and the reason this is all important is because I think a lot of us feel that way and we kind of spend the next part of our life trying to fit in and as human beings we these very, like two often polarizing desires. One is to be our authentic self, to be our, you know, to live our truth. And the other is to,

to belong. And we will sacrifice our authenticity in order to, to belong. And that means that we'll, we'll kind of deny who we truly are to fit into certain situations, certain social groups. And then I would say the sort of manifestation of this was in my early 20s, where I started going out in London quite early in my sort of teenage years. And I didn't really go through, so like 14 and then like those teenage years. I was 16 I suddenly you know my braces came off suddenly boys started like looking at me a tiny bit and I wanted to just be this person again this person that I'd observed but it wasn't who I truly was but I would say the manifestation of that was you know doing Made in Chelsea that represented who I thought I needed to be to fit in and who was that someone that was kind of really outgoing how do I say this delicately it was a sort of perhaps a more watered-down version

you know more one-dimensional because again those like melancholic aspects those the darker like aspects of myself and I don't mean that in like a negative way but in the sort of emotional sense I kind of thought that that wasn't acceptable and I thought that like going out all the time and being liked and loved by everyone was what would make me happy and have a sense of belonging. And then that just wasn't the case because I think that those versions of myself became more polarized. And the way I write about it in the book, it's like almost like a Jekyll and Heidi thing. I was behaving out of alignment with I guess my true nature in many ways but I think that's something I certainly can relate to so deeply but I imagine everybody

listening can which is that I think when especially when you're younger but I think it's a very difficult thing to shake and I think certainly I feel like I'm always working on that in that sense of you know I felt very similar to you growing up that I needed to be a certain person that I just fundamentally wasn't and I found it quite difficult to accept the fact that I never you know I never liked going to parties I never wanted to go out and I remember even my mum saying to me like it's a bit sad that you just want to stay at home and watch x-factor with me you know I was like 16 I was like I know but that's what I love you know and like an absolute homebody and I think that kind of continues and you keep thinking I've got to be this person then

people will like me and as you said I think you can end up feeling more and more and more lost in yourself and I think your kind of late teens and 20s are really difficult period for saying honestly I don't really enjoy these activities or being with these people I want to do things differently but finding the inner confidence to start to look at that it's certainly easier said than done exactly and we sort of make our our sense of self as often how we think people perceive us so it's like you know we at school and that that's just become quite a lot more complex with social media at the moment because our measure of like our identity is based off like the sometimes illusion that we create online but if you know when I was growing up it's based on how people

respond and react to you and then for me going out and partying was like yeah how I felt I just did a lot of that but then I would become quite unhappy as a consequence and you've talked you know I think very openly very honestly about the fact that kind of in that period when you feel like you're not being yourself and again I think this is just something I feel everyone would relate to you so deeply almost not necessarily at that point confronting it and instead looking at sort of escapism and various different coping mechanisms and being quite honest about kind of alcohol or, but I can't think there's anyone in the world who hasn't had periods of time where we don't want to confront challenges or moments where we know we kind of need to change or make big changes in our life. But it feels so difficult to do that and a lot easier to turn to one of those sorts of things well it's you know we'll find ways of alleviating the pain they just might not be healthy ones or necessarily constructive to yeah shaping it for the long term well we don't i don't even think we have that awareness most

of the time you know i don't think people necessarily know that they're drinking because they're in pain in some way i don't necessarily people necessarily know that they're drinking because they're in pain in some way. I don't necessarily think people have that awareness sometimes ever. Yeah, we just create these strategies or tools to get us by. And then hopefully through life and through introspection and self-awareness, you can actually say, okay, and it was really important for, I think it's important for everyone to acknowledge that all their perhaps toxic coping mechanisms don't make them bad people. And those things aren't trying to harm you, they're trying to protect you. And I don't know if you've ever heard of internal family system therapy, but it's kind of this idea of like owning all parts of you

and recognizing that you're behaving in that way because you're trying to stop something from happening to protect yourself and when you kind of make peace with that you can then reprogram it and use something healthier one of the things that resonates to me so deeply is that talking about changing habits that we feel potentially aren't helping us and our kind of ways of numbing out or avoiding things so often when we look at making these changes we know we kind of deep down know we need to make them we do it from such a negative place to your point we do it because we think that we're useless or we're failing that we keep turning to this or that we can't make the change

and we do it from such a low place of self-esteem as opposed to really kind of doing it in a very very self-compassionate way and I'm very conscious this episode's coming out in kind of early part of the year and I think that kind of like January February time is sort of rife with those sorts of conversations where you don't sort of you're not good enough as you are change every fundamental part of yourself and you're doing that from such a negative place but I wondered if you wouldn't mind almost taking us back to that time and kind of how you were sort of like using things like alcohol as a way of escapism potentially so people's relationship with alcohol is obviously very unique and personal and it's not a one-size-fits-all thing by any means even though I feel it's often sold that way.

But for me, I sort of at some point started using it as a means not only for escapism, but for sort of shape shifting. So that sort of notion of be whoever you need to be to fit in alcohol was the way that I could be a chameleon in that sense. Did you feel like it gave you the confidence to do that yeah and also I I remember um one of my best friends I think Maddy Shaw do you know Maddy she I think it was Maddy he's because I've known Maddy since I was about three and for those listening she's also works in the nutrition space and And she was like, there's different versions of Kagi. And she was like, you have like Maddy Kagi. And then, you know, would name various friends.

And I would sort of alter myself based off whoever I was around and kind of mold myself to them, to their personality. And I didn't even realize or recognize that I was doing it. And alcohol was just a way that I could sort of, could do that even more. And like I said, it also was something that began to be a form of escapism. And that's when I started to recognize, I was like, okay, you know,

I guess I'm an extremist by nature. So for me, remaining kind of neutral was so, so, so foreign. I foreign I was one you know it was sort of and that was related to the way I approached my body and and food as well it was this kind of like indulging or deprivation or sort of it was all very extreme and that was the same with my relationship with alcohol so that that took a lot of effort to reprogram and kind of unpack what was going on. And, you know, like I said at the beginning, it's a deeply personal thing for everyone and there's a whole spectrum. of sovereignty around your behavior and so I I knew that for me abstaining from that was the only way that I was going to stop that coping strategy one of the things I'm so interested in there is and I've just been feeling this very very strongly over the last few months which is

that I think I think as a kind of total we simplify wellness and the wellness industry and well-being so much. It's just so oversimplified in a way that's inherently incredibly unhelpful to people. But I think that in that simplification, we so often look at, okay, I want to make a change. I want more energy, or I want to feel clearer or calmer, whatever it is. And we're like, right, I'm going to eat more broccoli or, you know, something along those lines. And I think I just starting to feel so so strongly and this is certainly my own experience as well that ultimately unless you change your self-esteem

and for so many people myself very much included in the past and it sounds like it was the case for you low self-esteem is really driving so many of the like trickier habits that aren't making us happier and actually approaching anything with a semblance of balance things are good for our well-being and we can incorporate them but in a way that feels like genuinely balanced and healthy and this has a sense of ease is is nigh on impossible if you're doing everything from a kind of quite negative place of low self-esteem and I don't know if that's how you felt and that addressing kind of who you really were as like to be really honest with yourself started to make kind of taking care of yourself

in a way that was enjoyable and natural as opposed to kind of going to extremes became a lot easier yeah and I think you you also can't bypass the sort of dark underworld that you have to go through and to get to the core and the heart of things and get to your to the rawness of why you are behaving that way in the first place or why that belief is there and where it stems from that's not it's not easy work and that like you said the sort of wellness industry is awash with sort of painting things over with you know quite toxic positivity sometimes and then people are like why am I repeating this again and again you know I had these great intentions and why have they all gone

out the window why have I gone back to that behavior and then start berating themselves for that toxic cycle and then it becomes this sort of huge shame thing rather than actually addressing like the core belief that's under it. For me, a big thing was also perfectionism. It was like if I aspired to be, and it kind of goes back to what I was saying at the beginning, these, these girls that I would look at and I would think they're perfect. That's what I need to be. I need to be perfect. And so what would happen is I would try and control my body. I would try and control everything. I would try and be liked and loved by all. And then once I wasn't really reaching any point of real

satisfaction because that's an impossible thing to try and achieve. And I remember when people would say, you know, you can't be for everybody. You know, that's just the set. And I remember thinking, being pained by that, being like, I have have to be I can't bear the idea of people not liking me and so unpacking like the perfectionism because what would you know what I was saying was what would happen was that there was a part of me that knew it was unachievable the ego and like my ego knew it was unachievable but didn't want to admit that because it was what it was trying to achieve so then I would go back into the destruction so it would just like start again so I would like go and eat lots or going like get out of my head and then feel terrible

about myself and then it would be like well you've got to go back to trying to be perfect again because you just ruined it all because it was like it knew that that wasn't possible you know and so when I really looked at that I was like why do I think I need to be perfect and under that was like I felt like I needed to be perfect in order to be loved and usually it's it's different for you know how that manifests for people and whatever you know know, perfectionism, whatever it might be. I believe that at the core of that is usually one of the few things. And that's a belief that we aren't worthy of love and belonging and that we aren't enough. It kind of boils down to like that simplicity. But you actually admit that it's it's a lot

because you realize how much that's kind of driven you through life and perfectionism is often something that gets applauded you know when people have interviews and they have to say like what the negative thing is they're like oh I'm a complete perfectionist about everything but actually it's a really it can be quite toxic and honestly I think it's really brave the way that you talk about it and I think it would mean a lot to a lot of people because I think that's the cycle so many people will have been in and I'm curious with that kind of perfectionist mindset that you had did you kind of feel that you always had to delay your happiness you know when I'm perfect when I look like this when I've got this relationship or people view me in this way then I can be happy it's almost like not allowing yourself to be happy and actually enjoy whatever moment you were in because you weren't perfect and by the way perfect doesn't

even exist does it it's like such an impossibly elusive and intangible concept that you can't even quantify. 100%. And it makes me sad thinking about that because there were so many things that I told myself I couldn't have. And it stalled me a lot in my 20s because I kept pushing the can down the road you know and I would sabotage situations because there was this feeling of unworthiness even with good opportunities that came by it would be like no no I need to do this and you know on a smaller scale it would be like you can't go to that party because you don't look good or the bigger scale of like sabotaging an opportunity in work because you don't feel worthy of deserving it and that's that's kind of heartbreaking I think

it is it really is and I think it's I feel quite strongly that I think a lot of people probably and like I've definitely had periods like this as well you're kind of missing your life because you're missing there's so many amazing things even the tiny little things that happen every day or potential opportunities or just moments for joy and we're so busy thinking about the difficult bits or the things that aren't quite right or aren't quite kind of quote-unquote perfect that it we're not really necessarily appreciating what we have and everything I feel like I've learned is that being able to find ways to live in the present and appreciate where you are is like the really the only route to happiness but again I appreciate it's so much easier said than done but I wondered this moment where you started to realize okay this is how I've been

living I've been kind of turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms I've not been kind of totally honest with myself I'm trying to be perfect and perfect doesn't exist I need to accept myself what was what was that kind of moment that like aha moment I'd say there were a few get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started.

You're a podcast listener, and this is a podcast ad heard only in Canada. Reach great Canadian listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn Ads. Email bob at libsyn.com to learn more. That's B-O-B at L-I-b-s-y-n dot com. I'd say there were a few. And I, you know, I always, when people say they're at a rock bottom, I always have this sort of quiet excitement because I view them as synonymous with spiritual awakenings. And when people suddenly kind of have that aha moment and for me

I did my time in LA was quite pivotal but how old were you then I was 27 and what took you there so I was kind of chasing a dream like many other hopeless romantics that moved to LA I you know I too had big dreams and I was working in the music industry and again to go into that perfectionism I had this idea of like what I needed to achieve in my life looking back it wasn't coming from the right place and my time there you know I kept subcontracting my authority over to other people people I was working with wanting them to tell me what to do and who to be and how to sort of navigate the world and and of course when you have that mentality people will come in and tell you what to do but they're not necessarily the right people and you then kind of go off path and I I remember just feeling this sense of time

and like the window was closing on that moment of opportunity. And I was just sort of stood in front of it motionless and frozen. And it was one moment there where I was desperately trying to control everything. And the more I did, the more out of control everything felt. And I was trying to put this project together and I was driving to the studio in Burbank which is a place in LA and I had a panic attack I uh had to pull over the car I was on the phone to my mom and I couldn't breathe it's making me struggle to breathe thinking about it and I just felt like everything around me was closing and that was a big catalyst for me coming home and even within coming home I think was an act of surrender of just like okay I'm trying to force something and it's just not feeling it's really not feeling good and then when I was home I did

actually start putting out music and it was going well but something still felt like slightly off I would say it's intention behind it was still this like seeking validation and approval and like do people like me is this enough am I enough I went to see, so I then had a very rough breakup. So this was all during my Saturn return. This is going down and I'm back in London, just turned 30. And I went to see a healer and I went to see her about the breakup because I was very heartbroken and I was still in love with this person at the time and I guess I wanted clarity over what was going to happen and it ended up the session ended up being nothing to do with the breakup and she started talking to me about my career and she said you know what do you do and I was like I'm a singer I work in music and

she she'd been she was reading the energy from my feet. And she just looked at me and she said, it's not resonating in your body. And it was such a direct thing. It was like, there was a sense of relief because I was like, I know, but of course no one had said that to me. And I hadn't even admitted it to myself. And I was like, but I'm 30 and that's what I've been pursuing. And I don't know, I don't know what to do. And she was like's like well tell me the things that you love to do so I was like well I love poetry I love truth seeking I love astrology I love spirituality I love community I love holding space and was listing all these things and she was like these are all true for you and these are the things you should be doing and I was like how's that gonna make a career she was like you need to just open up your language around what you're doing because you're so trying to control things that it's narrowing everything

and you're missing the opportunities and I remember after that experience leaving feeling like the biggest weight had been taken off my shoulders. And like suddenly for the first time I was kind of running downhill again and felt free. But also I realized that the only person, I felt like I had all these opinions of people pushing me up this hill, but it was actually just me. It's just all this pressure I was putting on myself. So a big sort of mission statement of mine is like don't be afraid if you don't know what you want to do with your life or that you feel you're at a certain age and that everything has to be sorted and I think that

that's this this lie that we're told around being 30 that everything has to have filed itself into some kind of meaning already and it's fixed I think that sense of almost needing to have permission to make a change is so interesting because I think for so many of us we can often get I'm quite curious about this with you but I think we can all often get kind of pigeonholed both by ourselves but then it becomes kind of reinforced by people around us you know we we kind of sometimes consciously or unconsciously end up in a certain place maybe it's a certain career a certain relationship you know a certain way of defining ourselves or describing ourselves and we think it's what we want and we're in it and I think we all know that nagging feeling where

it's like I don't think this is right I'm not really happy I think that sense of kind of burnout you start to feel emotionally when every day you're doing something that's so disingenuous to who you kind of really are and where your interests and skills actually lie I think everyone can relate to that but you sometimes need someone to kind of almost like unscrew the pressure valve and say like, it's okay. Not everyone needs you to be this person. But I imagine that was quite difficult, especially at this point. Like, you know, if anyone listening around the world, Made in Chelsea, the show you were on was kind of one of the first massive reality TV shows.

So imagine you felt that people thought this was caggy. And so I need to be this caggy and how are people going to react when I say I don't really want to be that person or do that anymore because I think that's quite a scary thing to do it is especially as it's it's packaged and presented as like everyone's going you're so lucky you know this is amazing and you're like yeah I'm aware that it is and you know I feel often people's Saturn return falls into sometimes they've got the facade or this sort of illusion of success and I say illusion because it's not necessarily emotionally fulfilling for them but everyone from the outside is like you've won at life you've got all the things you've ticked all the boxes but you just have this kind

of deep intuitive knowing that something's slightly off. And it's a brave thing to kind of be able to say, actually, that's not my path. That's not what I'm supposed to be doing. Or the other end is when things just kind of come crumbling down and you're just forced into this surrender and you're like, okay, I give up up like tell me tell me what's what's next what am I supposed to be doing so these are big questions and that's what I wanted to ask you because I think that sense of realizing okay this is my moment I need to change something I need to find that kind of success actually starting to equal happiness again and the kind of ways of executing that what did you

do you know like obviously it sounds very much to me and from everything I've ever heard you talk about or write about in your book it sounds like addressing a relationship with yourself and your self-esteem and your self-belief was a kind of fundamental pillar of really trying to kind of change everything around well you mentioned a moment ago about when we have that knowing that internal niggling thing and we all possess that and it's sort of one of the challenges of being human because we have language and a linear thought that those two can often run in conflict with each other so it was like this sort of analogy of, you know, animals will sense danger and they'll just run. Whereas we'll sort of sense danger as something is wrong and call up our girlfriends

and like convince each other it's a good idea. And so that's how we can end up staying in things that aren't right for us. And the more we kind of lean into that more masculine sort of energy of being more logical we're kind of disengaging from our intuition so perhaps the biggest catalyst for me was reclaiming that sort of intuitive knowing that's innate and exists in all of us and that was during this breakup that I went through that fell exactly on my Saturn return. And when the relationship ended, I had this or before it ended, I had this sort of that niggling feeling that something was off. But again, I was like, you know, you're 30. This makes sense. You'll probably get married and have children because that's what we're all doing and was denying this feeling. And looking back, it was just rearing up and it was manifesting in this like emotional outpour

where I just had this sort of continuous feeling of anxiety, especially towards the end. And without going into the finer details, I then realized that actually that was my body's knowing that this was not a safe situation and that something was really, really wrong. And then when that sort of came to the surface, I made a bit of a vow to myself. I was like, I'll never not listen to my body. I then also, you know, that disharmony between my body and my mind that had been there throughout, you know, that perfectionistic thing, that sort of not really listening to what my body wanted intuitively I then really began that path and that's when

things kind of started to open up and fall into place we aren't taught to listen to that we're actually more conditioned to not no and it's scary to kind of go against the grain or go as you said there's a lot of kind of societal norms and pressures and I think feeling like you're going against that takes a lot of courage and I wondered in terms of like starting to put these steps in to get to know yourself and get to trust yourself like were there any kind of daily tools that you started to use or things that you started to do kind of therapy or different wellness tools to help you start to kind of unlock all these questions that you had well I'd been dipping my toe into so I'd already been doing about six months of therapy before that breakup happened

so I already had quite a healthy infrastructure and someone to go to that definitely, definitely helped. And then I ended up taking myself to Australia, which I appreciate is not accessible to everyone, but I was like, I just need to get out of here. And, and I went on my own and I did yoga every day and just had the most soul nourishing time and it was just really about healing and then I really just lent into all these practices so I don't do them daily now but at the time I was going to a lot of breath work classes I was going to a lot of sound baths I was going to you know I was doing a lot of free movement which for those that don't know, it's basically just put on music and you dance. And again, that's something that really connects you back into your body. It also releases a lot of

emotion that gets stored in the body. And I found a lot of comfort in esoteric things like tarot and working with the moon. And then, yeah, that made me feel a lot more anchored and grounded and I kind of felt I found a community and a language to speak that resonated with me and if you don't mind me asking do you feel like if you take yourself back to that time in LA say or like the year loading up to that do you feel looking back on that that you ever would have believed you'd feel was kind of happy and balanced and at ease with yourself as you do today that's a really good question I don't know if I do I don't know if I would have I never would have imagined I'd be working in the space doing what I'm doing now and my goal then was very different my goal then was very different. My goal then was far more based on external validation,

whereas my Saturn return really made me recognize that actually doing what lights you up independently, that's how you find your purpose. It doesn't have to necessarily be this huge thing, an accolade. It can just be, it's just about being more authentically you. Yeah, I mean, I just, I only ask because I certainly feel different, but have been on a kind of, as I said, different but similar journey. And I definitely feel kind of looking back at periods of my life, I think I was so much less happy than I realized or wanted to admit at the time and I don't think I realized that I could have this sense of kind of

ease and contentment and just really feeling yeah it's not happy and they're like jumping up and down all day every day contentment but it's just yeah and it's just ease it's like it's okay like difficult things can happen it's okay like trains can be late and it's okay you know and and I just having lived very much and you said where like my tendency is to go to extremes my tendency is to kind of catastrophize and think the worst and I definitely had incredibly low self-esteem and a really difficult relationship with myself and as I said probably looking back on it more than I kind of was able to admit at the time. And it wasn't until I was in a better place and in what I felt was a kind of safe space

to really start to understand it and unpack it. But I look at how I feel now, like how I wake up in the morning, even when I don't feel amazing or like physically I don't feel great. And I feel this sense of contentment and ease I just didn't know was possible and I only say that just because I'm sure people are listening or in a difficult period and I think there's something you know you're just sitting in front of me you do you just seem so comfortable in yourself and comfortable kind of expressing what matters to you whether or not people resonate with it or not to an extent and I think that's such a gift yeah because I think we feel that the way that we are especially in our 20s I was like this is

fundamentally who I am and who I'll always be and I feel that I've changed a lot it's not to say that I'm not immune from the fears that I always had but they just have they don't take center stage anymore you know when I was writing the book or even like doing this, I'm like, people are really strange or something. But then I'm just like, no, no, we're just speaking authentically and that's all we're going to do. And whatever the outcome of that is fine. Because again, it's been my journey to know that the victory of things is in the doing it's not conditional on the outcome of how things land because when it when it is we don't do it we let fear get in the way and we try and control and but as you said even if people

are listening and like who are they they're not as you know I think there's still I think there's something in just like giving because I think if we give ourselves permission to just genuinely be who we are and express ourselves in whichever way that is and maybe it's in a kind of more esoteric way and maybe it's in a deeply conventional way and you know whatever your belief systems are I think that we we put ourselves in boxes but I think we put each other in boxes as well and I think if we the more I think what I feel passionately about is the more we can talk about this and just remove any judgment from each other from the way anyone communicates about what it is that really makes them happy in their life I think we probably create a very different society but I think we're so quick to judge other people yeah you know astrology is not for me so this isn't for me as opposed to oh that's

interesting that really resonates value here exactly and ultimately like I see all these things yeah you know astrology is not for me so this isn't for me as opposed to oh that's interesting that really resonates value exactly and ultimately like i see all these things as different tools like fundamentally as human beings like we all want to be happy like that's kind of what we're all on a universal quest for and i think in half being happier we've kind of feel healthier and it supports every aspect of our well-being and if we keep feeling like there's one path to do that we've all got to do it one way we're never ever going to get there and whatever tool it is that resonates with you maybe it's astrology maybe it's manifesting maybe it's like hit training or you know whatever it is it doesn't it doesn't really matter it's some it's tools to help you

understand yourself and live in a way where you feel really kind of alive and genuinely happy yeah but it takes a happy person to be able to you know I kind of say at the beginning of the book if it has meaning to someone it matters and its significance lies in the fact that that helps give them a structure or an infrastructure to live their life you know in a more grounded way but you have to have that yourself I think to appreciate and recognize that someone else might hold a different set of beliefs or operate differently and and that's that's okay and also to go back to what I was saying earlier about you know I hated this idea of not being liked and loved by all even if people don't agree with my thoughts or ideas or like what I have to

say I'm like well at least I have I have like a self that's you know more fixed now and that for me is something that I struggled with yeah and I think as we said that's kind of the gift of all gifts isn't it and if it helps anyone else believe they can get to that place too it's kind of the ultimate inspiration and i wanted almost to close like for people who are quite new to astrology obviously we've talked about kind of saturn return and what that means could you give us a sort of astrology i don't want to put you on the spot but an astrology sort of 101 i mean if you want an astrology one so nor who does the astrology for Saturn Returns is kind of a good girl for that. But I personally find it as a useful tool for self-awareness and personal

development. And it's sort of like a blueprint of your life, your birth charts, like a snapshot of how it's not fixed in the sense of when, if we see a psychic or something like that, it might be a bit more like this is going to happen. Whereas astrology is not like that. It's more like these are the trouble spots. This is where there's going to be turbulence. It's kind of like a navigation system. And then says these are the things that, you know, you'll do really well at. They're quite broad.

And so for me, a thing is about communicating, but in what capacity I choose to bring that to the world is for me to decide. It's sort of that dance between fate and free will really. The big three in astrology are your sun, moon and rising. And your sun sign is like, the way I view it is your sun sign is kind of who you're destined to be in this world and who you're kind of navigating through stuff to become so my sun sign is taurus and your moon sign is more your internal landscape so mine's pisces so i very much resonate with that i'm in the fields a lot of the time and then your rising sign my rising sign is Libra and that people either say that that's how you are viewed so that's who

people meet so people might meet a more like sociable outgoing person whereas I often feel quite shy and introspective but it's also how you kind of get to that sun sign so like for me people being sociable connecting is how I kind of reach that point so those are kind of the useful ones but it can get very complex and it's fast in terms of what you can know so for anyone intrigued I would suggest that they do a reading what I like about it as you said it's like to expect turbulence it's just to expect the fact that like life won't always be straightforward and that self-compassion in the fact that that's okay and you're probably just doing your absolute best I think is so key and I want to just round it out what's kind of what's next what's your next chapter well like kind of

ties into what I just mentioned about the sort of sun, moon rising. And, you know, when you have that indication that something, not that something's off, but that you need to adjust or things don't feel in flow. And I feel I'm still doing a lot of service to Saturn. And that's been perhaps because the Saturnian lessons for me felt so foreign because I was so unanchored and undisciplined that actually I've benefited a lot from them and also found it important to share those lessons but now that I'm kind of coming out the other side of that I feel that I'm going to move into a more sort of Venusian, Taurian energy which is going to be more about self-expression creativity i have a couple of other projects that i want to bring to life and i feel that the area personally that i'm going into and also i feel that will be professionally too is sort of love and relationships amazing you can see the confidence that you have in it and it's it's really inspiring so yeah just a huge thank you

for being so vulnerable and so open because I think it will have meant a lot to a huge number of people listening thank you so much for having me I really hope you enjoyed listening to that. I really enjoyed, not enjoyed, but took so much from and felt very inspired and empowered and moved by the level to which Kagi has clearly accepted every part of herself. And I think working on that self-acceptance is incredibly challenging at times, moving away from self-sabotage avoidance numbing out and realizing that you are deserving you can let go of perfectionism and the elusive concept that that is and instead tune into your body listen to yourself realize it's okay to be whoever you are whatever that looks like even if that's not what everyone expects of you or wants from you and having the courage to make those changes. It was a really

insightful episode. So if you did enjoy it, please do share it, rate it, review it, makes a big difference. Subscribe to the podcast so you can get all the episodes when they come out. Get in touch over social media at Deliciously Ella or podcast at deliciouslyella.com if you want to send us an email. And every week we will be collating the tools from the toolkit that we've been talking about with our guests. So with Kagi, we've got tools like a self-love mantra meditation, a moonscape soundscape.

It's a very calming soundtrack that you can put on and various other tools for improving your self-esteem, your self-worth. So you can find those all on feel better which is the deliciously ella app and if you've not got it you can have a seven day free trial and download it now onto android ios or head to deliciously ella.com or via the show notes and get all the details so you can implement those tools into your life too otherwise just huge thank you for listening and as always the details so you can implement those tools into your life too. Otherwise, just huge thank you for listening. And as always, a big thank you to Curly Media who are partners in this podcast production. Actuaries are truly global. Wherever there's risk to manage,

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