The Wellness Scoop - Can a Plant-Based Diet Revolutionise Your Health?

Episode Date: January 26, 2021

Dr Alan Desmond, an NHS consultant with over twenty years of clinical experience, joins us to talk about the science behind a plant-based diet, the latest research and how it can help all of our wellbeing. Dr Desmond specialises in gastroenterology and the effect what we eat has both on our gut health and our overall wellbeing, he’s revolutionary in the sense that he prescribes a plant-based diet to his patients and he’s seen first-hand the extraordinary impact it can have.   Dr Alan Desmond, The Plant Based Diet Revolution See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit BetterHelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com. Hi, and welcome to the Deliciously Ella podcast with me, Ella Mills. I'm afraid I have actually lost my co-host already. We're only three episodes in and he's already missing in action he's actually up at our factory today we are doing a trial run for a new product that we're going to be launching very soon which not to be annoying and not give away spoilers but it is so delicious and I'm very excited to tell you all about it soon it's the kind of thing that we very much need in dark lockdown kind of days so I've got three questions again from our listeners this week. Don't forget, if you want us to answer your questions or there's anything you want to know about us or Delicious Yellow,

please email us at podcast at deliciousyellow.com. But the first question was one that we got a lot of, which is what is helping us get through lockdown. And I have to say, we are really just trying to use the time to be kind to ourselves and just try and appreciate the extra downtime that we have in the evenings as much as we possibly can. We have been watching a lot of TV shows. If anyone hasn't seen the show, This Is Us, it is absolutely incredible. We started it at the back end of last year and became completely addicted every time the girls were napping or whenever they went to sleep in the evening. We've been binge watching it. We've already caught up with the new season five and it's just absolutely amazing. I feel like it's

the dream lockdown viewing. We've been watching it on Amazon, but I'm sure it's available in other places as well. And we've been doing lots of face masks, Epsom salt baths, generally kind of just as much self-care as we can. And also cooking a lot. I've been really trying to try new recipes and challenging myself to use new ingredients and just varying things up a little bit. I've actually been really enjoying tofu recently. I've been doing a lot of stir-fried teriyaki tofu. I did a recipe the other day with teriyaki tofu, veggie fried rice and some broccoli with crispy seaweed, which was so delicious. And again, something that I don't make all the time. So you're trying to take new inspiration and new ideas, which then obviously we can share with you, which is brilliant.

So lots of those will go onto the app soon. One of the other questions I have, which I guess relates to a lot of people struggle during lockdown in general but I think for parents of young children is how do we find time for ourselves between parenting and work and it's such a good question I mean having two under two is no small feat but it's just trying to capture those 20 minutes when you can either when they're napping or when they go down in the evening and we are really lucky they're both really good sleepers. Touch wood, I don't want to jinx anything. And that does make the world of difference. But it's just about being kind of overly organized so that when you do get those moments, you can just really appreciate them, even if it's just five minutes a day. And then the third question I had was,

what are my thoughts on vegan urine as we approach the end of January? We've obviously missed the first few weeks of it, but I think it's a really interesting one. I think it's amazing for encouraging people to maybe try making more plant-based meals. I know for myself, and I'm sure I think for a lot of our readers as well, is there's sometimes a preconception that vegan or plant-based food, veggie food in general is a bit boring, a bit uninspiring. So it's really nice to have the opportunity to try it and maybe get friends and family involved. But at the same time, I think sometimes that all or nothing approach can be a bit intimidating for people. So I guess it's trying to find that middle ground between trying new things, changing those preconceptions

and realising that veggie food can actually be so abundant and delicious, but without making it too kind of forceful to all or nothing, that it turns you away from enjoying some of this food. And I think that leads us on really nicely to our episode today. And we're going to be talking about the benefits of including more veggies, more plants in our diets. Our guest today is Dr. Alan Desmond, who is an NHS consultant. He's got over 20 years of clinical experience and he specialises in gastroenterology and the effect that what we eat has both on our gut health and our overall wellbeing. And Alan is actually absolutely so excited to speak to him because he's incredibly revolutionary in the sense that he actually prescribes a plant-based diet to his patients,

which is, you know, obviously quite a novel approach and he therefore has really seen firsthand the extraordinary impact that having a very plant-rich diet can have. So he's joining us today to talk about all the science behind it, all the latest research, what he's seen in his patients, and just to help us get a bit more understanding of how eating more of this sort of food can really help our well-being. It's not all or nothing. It's not about being vegan tomorrow. It's just about incorporating more of this sort of food in your diet. So welcome, Alan. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today. How are you finding lockdown? Everything's okay, your end? We're okay. So I'm talking to you from Southwest Devon and it's okay. Schools are shut. We're

homeschooling again. You know, obviously I've had this conversation with you in the diary for a little while and I'd cleared my schedule so I could have a nice clear morning and reflect on what I should discuss with you today. But in reality, I've just been wrestling three young children between their school books and food. And so it's been a very hectic morning, but it's been fun. It's been fun. Good. I'm really glad. I know it's kind of complete chaos working at home with tiny children around around but much more fun as well I completely agree so look you do the most incredible things and I've followed your work for ages and incredibly inspired by it and I'd love to just also I guess taking you back

a bit what inspired you first of all to start looking at the benefit of a plant-based diet but actually what's inspired you to start looking at the power of food when it comes to your work as a doctor and medicine in general? Because obviously that isn't something that is always commonplace in medicine. Well, it was my patients, Ella. So I'm a gastroenterologist, so I specialize in treating people with digestive health problems. So things like Crohn's, colitis, even colorectal cancer, irritable bowel syndrome, celiac disease. That's the sort of thing that I deal with on a day-to-day basis. Now, I qualified medical school in 2001. And by 2003 or 2004, I was in my first rotation as the most junior person on a team of gastroenterologists. So taking care of people

who are hospitalized with very severe gastrointestinal problems. And I remember, it must have been about 2003, 2004, being at the bedside of a young man with a condition called Crohn's disease, a form of inflammatory bowel disease, a condition that causes parts of your bowel to become very seriously inflamed. And we can talk a bit more about that later if you'd like. But this young gentleman, you know, in his early 20s had been on powerful immune suppressing medications for a few days and things were improving. His symptoms were improving. The lab markers were improving.

And we were on the ward round. I was there with my boss, the consultant, and we went to see the patient and reassured him, said, look, we don't think you're going to need surgery. The immune suppressants are working. We've got another medication to start tomorrow. We'd already told him about the nature of Crohn's disease. His mum was sitting at the bedside to support him. And his appetite was coming back, Ella. And he asked a question. He asked us, is there anything that I should eat? Is there any foods you'd recommend to help me to get better? And the answer that he was given was, it doesn't

matter. Calories are calories. Eat whatever you like. And I remember my boss turning to his mom and saying, calories are important, so bring in whatever he likes. And then turning back to the young man saying, do you like McDonald's? We could get you some McDonald's. And that answer sounds quite shocking to you, I presume, and it'll shock a lot of your listeners. And I think it shocked that young man's mother as well. And it didn't make sense to me, this idea that calories are just calories. So as I became convinced that I wanted to be a specialist and I wanted to be the senior doctor giving the answers to that question to my patients, I looked at the medical evidence. And in gastroenterology, Ella, every patient asks you, what should I eat? There's such

an immediate connection between food and health. It's intuitive. People know that food has a role to play in helping them to maximize their health and maximize their prospects. And I remember about 2004, around the same time, there was an article, I think it was in the British Medical Journal or Gastroenterology, looking at inflammatory bowel disease. It was one of the first papers that described how individuals who ate less meat had a better prognosis. And it was the first time I'd seen that in a major medical journal. And of course, it referenced a lot of the science behind why that was so, and led me to read more papers. And throughout my training, I a lot of the science behind why that was so and led me to

read more papers. And throughout my training, I kept an eye out for these papers. So by the time I'd qualified as a consultant gastroenterologist myself and become the senior member of the team in 2012, I'd looked at the science in detail. And it was very evident to me that whether we want to maximize our gastrointestinal or gut health or our overall health, then the fewer processed foods and the more plant-based foods in our diet and on our plate, the better for our health. And the logical conclusion is a whole food plant-based diet. And as I became the consultant and from 2012, I started speaking openly with my patients about this and I started seeing some remarkable improvements among my patients. And from 2012, I started speaking openly with my patients about this. And I started

seeing some remarkable improvements among my patients. And so it was really my patients' questions, my patients who were willing to embrace the change, and the results that they achieved that convinced me that I should be talking to more people about this. And that's led me to be a very public advocate, to speak at medical conferences, educational sessions, teaching students, even sharing on social media and now writing a book because I just want to get that message out to as many people as possible. It's such a powerful message and one question I have, I mean I know we've experienced this and it's a question actually that I get from readers and listeners a lot is that you know whether or not you take up a solely plant-based diet,

or you just start to incorporate a lot more of these foods into your life, a lot of people can sometimes look at you like you're a little bit mad. There's a lot of confusion and kind of mixed messaging about the way we eat. And there definitely is a skepticism about the possible power of this sort of thing. And I wondered how you approach that. Well, I talked about a question earlier, Ella, what should I eat? And you're asking the same question, right? What should people eat? And that's what people ask all the time. What should I eat? Is this whole food plant-based thing for me? Well, a couple of years ago, February 2019, the Lancet Medical Journal, one of the biggest and

most respected medical journals in the world, commissioned a group of international experts to answer that exact question, what should I eat? And they were led from world-class researchers, doctors, dieticians, health experts, epidemiologists, but also food production experts from around the world. So they hand-selected a panel of experts and asked them to answer that question, not just for you and for me, but for everybody on the planet. So the 3.2 billion people who are living in high-income countries and suffering from the effects of over-alimentation, too many calories, and the 700 or 800 million people in the world who are living in food poverty. And they just can't access enough food to optimize their health. So what should we all eat? And they came up with this

concept called the Planetary Health Plate or the Eat Lancet Report. I mean, it's a huge scientific report, but in a nutshell, they concluded that for a healthy diet, half of your food should be fruits and vegetables, just a big mix of fruit and veggies. And the remainder should be made up of healthy whole grains, plant protein sources, so protein rich plants, and unsaturated plant oils. And they concluded that meat, eggs, and dairy are optional. And when you read through that report, they're very clear that if you live in a country where you basically have unlimited food options, like here in the UK and the US and other high income countries, if you live in a country with unlimited food options, your best bet is to build

your diet like that and regard meat, eggs, and dairy as optional. And they were very clear that based on the health benefits of this approach to eating, that if you do opt for eating animal products, you should keep your consumption pretty low. 30 grams of chicken or fish a day, half an egg, seven grams of red meat a day, which is probably eating one serving of red meat every few weeks. And they said, just don't eat processed meat at all. Just don't eat bacon. Don't eat sausage. It's so bad for you. And if you are consuming those small amounts of animal products, just bear in mind that if you're having a beef burrito for lunch, it's still healthier to eat

a bean burrito because they were very clear that plant-based sources are the optimal. And in fact, when they issued that report, they estimated that a global switch to this healthier, completely plant-based or very plant-predominant approach for food would prevent almost 12 million deaths per year, 12 million deaths, not to mention hundreds of millions of trips to the coronary angiography suite or the chemotherapy unit or the doctor's office or billions of prescriptions for antihypertensives and cholesterol medications. Because the benefits of taking this approach to food, completely plant-based or 95% plant-based are pretty undeniable. And in recent years, we've seen this approach to food really entering the mainstream. And a plant-based diet, a

completely plant-based diet is endorsed as a healthy option by the British Dietetic Association, the American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the Canadian Healthy Eating Guidelines, the American Cancer Society, the World Health Organization. In fact, last year in 2020, the American Medical Association, which is one of the oldest, most respected professional organizations for doctors in the world, wrote a letter to the U.S. Department of Agriculture and asked them to stop having meat and dairy as mandatory food groups within the dietary guidelines for America. And the reason they asked them to do that, and their letter was very clear, is because these foods are not essential for health. And in fact, they drive

diseases like colorectal cancer, obesity, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, prostate cancer, breast cancer. And that by recommending that people eat these foods and making them appear mandatory, you're not taking care of your health. Wow. It's just so interesting. And I'm sure there's a lot of people listening to this. And I know that was my feeling when I first started researching a plant-based diet. If this is the case, why don't we all know this and and I think cutting through that confusion is is such a big part of it one thing I wanted to pick you up on because it's something I find very interesting and it's a debate we had at Delicious Yellow a lot is the kind of terminology because you see a lot of the word vegan around especially obviously January and you've got veganuary but generally it's a word that's used a lot but you

use plant-based as do we and it's a very I think it's quite an interesting distinction because a secondary question I had on what you were saying is kind of why why is it that these plant-based foods do that for your body versus some of the other foods and I think it's interesting with the rise of veganism even if it's not full-blown veganism but people incorporating more veganism into their life is it often can be kind of quite highly processed meat alternatives. And how does that fit into this conversation? Well, I guess, Ella, it depends on your goals and your reasons for making the change. My personal reasons for recommending this approach to food, and you're right, I use the terminology

whole food plant-based. So that's about eating meals which will be very familiar to anybody who's used any of your cookbooks. So relatively unprocessed or mildly processed foods. So fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, seeds, legumes, beans, peas, chickpeas and lentils, pretty close to their natural state, served up on a plate. And that's a really healthy way to eat. As I described earlier, it's evidence-based. This really helps reduce the risk of heart disease, type 2 diabetes, stroke, bowel cancer, inflammatory bowel disease, and will add

years of health to your life. Not to mention the food tastes great, right? So, you know, it's not like you're missing out on anything from a culinary perspective. If anything, you're eating more food and more flavors and more plants, which is really important for your gut and your gut microbial diversity as well. So, I mean, the name of my book, as you know, is The Plant-Based Diet Revolution. But of course, this revolution has already started. It's been going on for quite some time. Even before COVID, we knew that about 40% of people were looking at reducing the animal products in their diet and getting more interested in a plant-based approach to food.

And that's thanks to people like you and other very high-profile people who've been talking about it, like Lewis Hamilton, the F1 driver. Even so, David Beckham posting about the fact that he'd taken a vegetarian approach to food recently. And people see that and they're inspired to make the change. But it also means that within our supermarkets, we're seeing a lot of highly processed foods that are now being labeled vegan or plant based to give them the aura of healthy so that people will choose them. And maybe the supermarkets can put a few extra pence on the price tag because these are now plant-based and they're healthy. And I think that's a pitfall really, because if you're going to get the health benefits of this approach to

eating, I would put the emphasis almost equally on whole food as I do on plant-based. It's so important because junk food is still junk food, even if it's vegan junk food. And it's like the difference between an apple and an apple pop tart. So how do you turn an apple into an apple pop tart? Well, you take out all the fiber, you reduce the content of the antioxidants and phytonutrients, and then you add in processed sugar and you add in oil. All of these are unhealthy things. You might even add in some salt. And then you add in these junk food chemicals that are designed to make junk foods taste like something you might like to eat. And if you ever flip over and look at the back of a highly processed junk food, you'll see things like carrageenan and polysorbate and maltodextrin and carboxymethyl cellulose. And the reason those words are so hard to read is because these are chemicals. They're not foods.

They're made in a factory. They're powders and liquids that are added to junk foods to give them the aura of being food so that you'll eat them. And they're just not healthy for you. They're particularly not healthy for your gut health and your gut microbial health. And we know that the more of those junk foods you consume, the more likely you are to experience poor health. And Ella, right now in the UK, those junk foods, sadly, make up about 50 to 60% of calories consumed in the UK now come from highly processed junk foods. So although it's nice to see all these plant-based things popping up at the supermarkets, I really want people to spend more time in the fruit and vegetable section,

and maybe the aisle of the supermarket where they sell all the beans and grains, and to just kind of steer clear of all that junk. Yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, when we started making our food products back in 2015, that was our kind of absolute non-negotiable red line. We were not adding any emulsifiers, additives, preservatives, etc. And speaking to various different manufacturers, they were so flabbergasted at this approach. And so it's not possible. You won't be able to do it. You can't work with us and so on and so forth. And so far, the experiment is working, but it's really interesting to see how established that has become and what a huge change it is. You know, I'm being honest, it's not been easy to go against the grain but it's um hopefully we'll see more of that one one stat actually in line with that that you had in your book which i kind of was really shocked

by but i guess in a way shouldn't be was that one in three european adults doesn't consume fruits and vegetables on a daily basis absolutely i mean that's the sadly that is the state of human nutrition at the moment. The standard Western diet, which I guess originated in the US, is a high meat, high dairy, high processed food, high junk food approach to food. It's low in fruits and vegetables and beans, legumes, nuts and seeds. Those are the foods that are super beneficial to human health. It's low in fiber, which does our gut no favours, does our gut microbiome no favours. And junk food have become the convenience, simple,

appealing thing. I mean, I've got young kids, you know, so my children are aged from four up to nine and they all eat a plant-based diet, but it's so hard to steer them away from the colourful junk foods because they're packaged nicely. They always taste the same, which is important for kids. They like consistency in the flavour of their foods. So we get hooked on these things in childhood and they remain a part of our dietary intakes for the rest of our life. And society endorses that. They're described as treats or special foods or foods for happy occasions, and they become completely linked. So it doesn't surprise me these days, Ella, that these foods are so common and that fruits and vegetables have been pushed out. And kudos to you guys at Deliciously Ella for pushing back against that trend to put all these funny additives and

preservatives in snack foods. It's interesting. A few months ago, I was sent a sample of some healthy plant-based snack foods by a company. It was a porridge product. So just a porridge, add hot water, and you're good to go, that sort of product. I think you have a similar product. And it had maltodextrin in it. And we know that maltodextrin is not good for your gut microbiome. It has some pretty pernicious effects. It kind of weaponizes your gut microbiome, promoting the growth of harmful bacteria, reduces your intestinal defenses against this harmful bacteria. It's been implicated in causing Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis and metabolic syndrome.

It is no business in the human diet. But when I messaged them and said, well, thanks for the porridge, but can you tell me why you have maltodextrin in each pot of porridge? And the person who'd sent me, it said, I don't know. I don't know why that's in there. I'm sorry. Anyway, you're right. It's become the norm, I guess, in the food industry, right? Are you crushing your bills? Defeating your monthly payments? Sounds like you're at the top of your financial game. Rise to it with the BMO Eclipse Rise Visa Card, the credit card that rewards your good financial habits. Earn points for paying your credit card bill in full and on time every month.

Level up from bill payer to reward slayer. Terms and conditions apply. You're a podcast listener, and this is a podcast ad heard only in Canada. Reach great Canadian listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn ads. Email bob at libsyn.com to learn more. That's b-o-b at l-i-b-s-y-n.com. Oh, absolutely. There were products we were making and, you know, we wanted to find a coconut milk that was just coconut. And I think it took us almost a year to be able to source that. And

you know, that we're not going to make anything that we can't do that for. But it's been a really eye opening experience of how difficult it is. And it obviously is more expensive as well, because it's difficult, and it's not commonplace. And so it gives me a better appreciation of some of the red tape that exists. And one thing I wanted to ask you, there's two questions I've got from that, but the first is, and it's a question we get all the time at Delicious Cielo, and I see a lot now that we've had our little girls, is about a plant-based diet for children, because I think there's a huge amount of nervousness around it.

I wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about that. Well, so I'm not a pediatrician. I'm not a doctor who treats children. I'm a doctor who treats adults. But I am a dad. I've got three children. So, of course, I've read the literature around this. And, you know, I wouldn't recommend a plant-based diet to my kids if I didn't know that it was a healthy thing to do. Now, I spoke earlier about how the British Dietetic Association and numerous other professional organizations

have endorsed a completely plant-based diet as a healthy option. And it is a healthy option. And the British Dietetic Association has been very clear on this, that a completely plant-based diet is healthy for all ages and all stages. So that includes children, that includes women in pregnancy, that includes 25-year-old rugby players and 85-year-old retirees and 52-year-old CEOs of huge companies. So a completely whole food plant-based diet is a healthy option for everybody. I think when people ask about a plant-based diet for children, they're worried that their child is going to experience a deficiency and that their child is going to somehow miss out on something that they need for optimal health. But as you and I both know, a plant-based diet has been consistently rated as one of the nutrient-dense dietary patterns available to humans. So in fact, most of the common deficiencies that drive poor health in countries like the UK and the US and Australia are actually far less likely to occur. So a healthy plant-based diet contains more fiber, more folate, more vitamins A,

vitamin C, vitamin E, more thiamine, more riboflavin, magnesium, copper, even iron than a diet that includes meat and dairy. And I mean, when I say that, people might think, okay, he's just making that up, but it's true. And that's something that we cover in my book as well. And whenever I make a statement like that in the book, I reference the science. So people can look at the little number, go onto the website that accompanies the book, and look at the data to support that statement. So I think maybe, are there mistakes that people make when they have their children eating a completely plant-based diet?

Sure. But people make mistakes in the food they give their children all the time, right? You might not realize it's a mistake to give your child a hot dog made out of processed pork, but it is a mistake. You're giving them a taste for a food that has been graded by the World Health Organization as a class one carcinogenic substance that is going to significantly increase the risk of getting colorectal cancer. So you feed your kid a hot dog, they develop a taste for hot dogs, they eat hot dogs for the rest of their life. And I'm reluctant to say this, it increases the risk of getting colorectal cancer. And if they develop colorectal cancer in adulthood, there's a reasonable chance that they've done so because they consume hot dogs and ham and processed meat and bacon

as a regular part of their diet. In the UK, we see 42,000 cases of colorectal cancer diagnosed every year. This is something that's very close to me. It's something that's affected members of my family. I sit down with patients maybe once or twice a week, and I have to have that very difficult conversation, Ella, where I tell them that I've just diagnosed them with colorectal cancer. It's a devastating conversation. It's a life-changing conversation. Even if the cancer is in an early stage and very treatable, it's still life-changing. You're looking at surgery, maybe chemotherapy. So these food choices that we teach our children when they are children can do so much good for them in the long

term. We know the children who are brought up in a plant-based or vegan household, if you want to use that terminology, are less likely to suffer from obesity, less likely to suffer from asthma. I think I've seen some studies on that. Young girls are less likely to have premature menarche and start their periods early, which is actually important because that has health benefits later in life. So if you are choosing to raise your kids on a plant-based diet, you're really setting them up for long-term success. The usual things about vitamin B12 supplementation, super important. If you live in a country where you don't get 20 to 40 minutes of

bright sunlight every day, you may wish to think about vitamin D supplementation, but that's not a vegan thing or a plant-based thing. That's for everybody living in the UK. And yeah, I have no hesitation. My children eat a plant-based diet. They're thriving. They're smart, funny, intelligent, tough kids. And the evidence supports that choice for sure. I find it quite fascinating because I get so many questions about it and I know some people think it's not necessarily the right thing to do and I but I see what Sky eats I mean she's only 17 months but I see what she eats and she eats the most amazing mix of different fruit and veg and she eats things like chia pudding for breakfast and I feel like she's getting this unbelievable abundance of things as you said like fiber phytonutrients antioxidants and I kind of think it's so good for her and yet there's this kind

of nervousness and it always makes me laugh when people approach and they say well aren't you going to be deficient in protein and you think well I ate let's be honest not a very good kind of a classic standard western diet for the first 21 years of my life and no one ever asked me whether or not I might be deficient in fiber or vitamin a or so on and so forth and yet I almost certainly was and I just it's very interesting how this initial reaction of oh you must be missing x because you're not eating meat but you never you never get the questions the other way around that is such a a good point. You know, recently, because we see these scare stories in the media episodically, newspapers want to sell copy, websites want to generate clicks. So every few

months we see a scare story about the risks of adopting a plant-based diet. And I posted on Instagram recently, like this fake post where the theme of the post was, you know, doctors warn against the dangers of not adopting a plant-based diet. And we don't see those stories in the news. So let's flip the coin around, right? Let's say by not opting for plant-based meals three times a day, people are placing themselves at serious increased risk of problems like high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, cancer, and heart disease. And every time you choose beef instead of beans, you're making yourself more likely to develop obesity, a condition that can reduce your life expectancy. When you compare the risk of meat eaters to those

who've gotten switched on to a plant-based diet, you can see that the meat eaters in some studies have about double the risk of dying from heart disease. So you can flip this coin the other way. But of course, we never see those headlines in the newspapers because they probably don't generate clicks. But for me, it's difficult to explain why so many people are sticking to a meat-based diet when you look at the undeniable benefits of a plant-based approach. And so just give us a kind of summary of why it is so good. Why do we need these antioxidants, the phytonutrients, the fiber, all the different vitamins and minerals that the plants give us? What do they do that's so beneficial, so preventative?

Well, I guess you talked earlier about protein and people worrying about where you get your protein. And I guess that's a good point to start off on answering that question. People ask me that question all the time. Will I get enough protein? And I've had a lot of people since we announced the book messaging me saying, oh, you know, I like to eat X grams of protein with every meal. So will your book suit me? And in every single recipe, we've included the protein content of every single meal. And it's 25 grams for the main meals just to reassure people. But why is substituting plants for animal protein such a good move? Well, let's look at

animal protein. If you consume animal protein, a piece of beef or bacon or chicken, you are getting the protein that your body needs because protein is important for human health. That is undeniable. We all need to eat a certain amount of protein every day. If you get it in a piece of meat or an egg, you're getting your protein in a package where it's wrapped up with cholesterol and saturated fats, which are main drivers of heart disease. When you cook the animal product, particularly meat, you're generating all these chemicals with confusing names like polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and heterocyclic amines. And these chemicals are pro-inflammatory and promote oxidation and aging and can be potentially carcinogenic. You're also choosing to get your protein in a bundle with heme iron rather than the non-heme iron that you get from plants. Heme iron, again, pro-inflammatory, significantly increases your risk of developing problems like

bowel cancer. If you're choosing to get your protein from meat and eggs, you're also going to give yourself a relatively high intake of chemicals called carnithine and choline. Now, carnithine and choline are necessary for human health, particularly choline, which is necessary for neurological health and development, particularly important for children. We talked about children earlier, but you get a lot of those substances from meat and eggs. You get enough to sustain a healthy body and a healthy mind and a healthy neurological development by eating beans and other vegetables. And I think Brussels sprouts or cauliflower might be a good source of choline. But on a whole food plant-based diet, you get more than enough. And when you consume carnitine and choline in excess from meat and eggs, your gut microbiome

turns that carnitine and choline into a substance called TMA. And by feeding your gut microbiome meat and eggs, you get more bacteria that enjoy digesting that chemical and turning it into TMA. The TMA is absorbed into your bloodstream, your liver converts it into TMAO, which runs through your body, runs through your bloodstream, and it increases systemic inflammation. It promotes atherosclerosis, the furring up of your arteries that contribute to heart disease, cerebrovascular disease, stroke, kidney disease. On that particular topic, we know that people who eat a completely plant-based diet, after six to 12 months, the bugs that enjoy the carnitine and choline and turn it into TMAO die off because you're not eating those substances in excess amounts. So vegetarians and vegans lose the

ability to produce TMAO, which may be just one of the reasons why we have lower risks of heart disease. Now, on the other side of that, so instead of the beef burrito, you're choosing the bean burrito. So you're choosing plant protein rather than animal protein. So you're still getting protein, you're getting the same amino acids, you're getting the same stuff that your body needs to thrive. But now you're getting it in a different package. You're getting it wrapped up with fiber. Number one, fiber, the structural carbohydrates that we get only from plants that our gut microbiome and our body absolutely thrive on. You're also getting your protein wrapped up with vitamins A, vitamin C, vitamin E, plenty of B vitamins, folate, potassium, magnesium, all of these beneficial substances that are really essential to human health. And every time you choose the beef instead of the beans, you're missing out on a lot of those. And that's part of the reason. But also in plants, we get these wonderful phytonutrients.

So phytonutrients, the clue is in the name. Phyto is the Greek word for plant. So these are chemicals that we get from plants. And they're not maybe needed to keep you alive day to day. They're not like protein, carbohydrates and oils, for example. They're not like iron and calcium and copper, for example. They're not like iron and calcium and copper, for example, but they are very beneficial. They help to prevent disease and improve our health. So all of our plant foods contain phytonutrients, but brightly colored fruits

and vegetables are really good sources. And also these brightly colored foods are great sources of antioxidants, substances that help the body to prevent or slow the damage that our cells experience every day. So occasionally you might read an article online or you might see a story on your feed talking about the benefits of vitamin C or beta carotene or flavonoids or phenols or polyphenols. So those are all sorts of antioxidants. And you don't need to go out and buy these things in supplement form. Please don't do that. You don't need to do that. Just by filling your diet with a variety of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, seeds, and legumes, you will automatically be eating a diet that is super rich in all of those substances.

So hopefully that answers the question, or partly partly answers the question as to why plants beat animals hands down when it comes to protein and maximising your health. Absolutely. And one question that comes up all the time, and I'm sure some people have in the back of their mind when they're listening to this, especially there may be a little bit newer to it is, but haven't we always eaten this way? You know, we were okay, you know, our ancestors, you know, the cavemen didn't know. I'm sure you get that question a lot too. It's a reasonable question, I guess. So we do see a lot of people coming up with that discussion about, well, how did ancient humans eat? And it's kind of hard to figure out how they eat. And you'll occasionally see papers showing that ancient human settlements contain a lot of animal bones. Therefore, they ate a lot of animals. And you'll see studies. I mean, I'm a gastroenterologist, and we haven't mentioned poop yet. I'm about to mention it. So all your listeners, brace yourselves. I'm about to mention poop. There's been studies looking at fossilized human poop from the Paleolithic era.

And it shows that many of our ancient ancestors consumed a huge amount of plants and a huge amount of fiber. So it's very difficult to know exactly what our ancient ancestors consumed. But it's a very reasonable thing to say that really our ancient ancestors lived in a different planet than we do right now. Certainly when it comes really our ancient ancestors lived in a different planet than we do right now. Certainly when it comes to food, they lived on a different planet. And for our ancient ancestors, a happy, long life and retirement and walking their children and their grandchildren to school and secondary school and university was never on the cards. They were in a daily battle for

survival. Their only goal was to make it to reproductive age, pass on their genes and ensure the survival of the family, their tribe, their social unit. And for them, whatever looked like food was probably food, whether that was animal, vegetable, or mineral. So it's very difficult to look back in history and see, well, look, at a time when the human experience was so different to the 21st century, and when life expectancy was like 25 years, should we be eating like those people ate? Even though it's very difficult to determine how exactly they did eat. But when you look at the wealth of the evidence in the 21st century, we see that taking a whole food plant-based approach is hugely beneficial. So I'm sure many of your listeners will be familiar with

the blue zones concept, and I'm sure you've heard about it before on your podcast. And when we look at these really healthy populations scattered around the world, for example, in Loma Linda, California, among the Seventh-day Adventists. So this is a modern-day 20th, 21st-century population that take a very plant-based approach to life. About half are vegetarian. One in 12 are completely plant-based, and this is all for faith and religious reasons. Even the meat eaters amongst the Adventists only consume about 50 grams of meat per day, or maybe 18 or 20 grams of meat per year compared to the UK, where we eat 82 kilos per person per year. In the US, over 100 kilos per person per year. And with that approach to food, we see people who live for 10 or 11 years longer than the US average. They have 65% fewer cases of type 2 diabetes, half as much heart disease and stroke, one

third fewer digestive cancers. So it is interesting to speculate on what our ancestors consumed. But right now we're living in the 21st century, Ella, and we need to look at our 21st century humans to see what a healthy diet should look like. Yeah, no, I think that's a very, very good answer. I'll definitely be quoting that. And I guess, you know, as we start to kind of conclude this, I'm a massive believer in the idea that for anything to be sustainable in our lives and to last over the long term it's got to be enjoyable it's got to feel doable it's got to be unapproachable

for a lot of people that's not changing everything overnight for people who've been eating and living in a certain way for a certain length of time that's probably a bit overwhelming and I guess it's you know some is better than nothing isn? You know, it's not about changing absolutely everything you do in the next five minutes. It's about slowly starting to just incorporate significantly more of these sorts of foods rather than feeling that it has to be all or nothing. No, you're absolutely right. But you know, Ella, I'm really hoping that people will pick up the book, read the science, they'll be inspired, they'll try the food, they'll enjoy eating and sharing the food. With that, I hope that many, many, many of the people who do pick up the book will then commit to trying 28 days eating a

completely plant-based diet. So within the book, we've got a 28-day revolution where we give 28 days of meal plans and cookery guides and tips for making it a success and a day-to-day cooking guide, because I really want people to discover that by adopting a whole food plant-based diet, that what they'll experience is exactly what the science shows, that you can kickstart healthy weight loss if that's a goal. You can reverse high blood pressure and hypercholesterolemia. You can generate benefits to your gut microbiome and your digestive health. And you can really realize very, very, very significant health benefits even by just adopting a plant-based diet, a completely plant-based diet for just 28 days. The last year has placed a really grim spotlight on just how

common poor underlying health has become in high-income countries. We know now in the US, heart disease affects more than one in 12 working adults. More than one in five are affected by multiple long-term medical conditions. Here in the UK, over 4 million people are now living with type 2 diabetes, a condition that barely even existed 50 years ago. But those are worrying and sobering statistics. But really, the book is about a message of hope because not only is the food delicious, but many of the chronic health conditions that reduce our quality of life and deprive us of productive years can actually be prevented, halted, and even reversed by a

healthy lifestyle and a healthier plant-based approach to food. And plus the food is delicious. So what have you got to lose? It is delicious. I completely agree. That's the thing that surprised me most when I decided I would start doing this for my health. I was one of the skeptics that thought it was weird and thought it was hippie and thought it would be bland and boring and unsatisfying. And it is the polar opposite. And I think that's a huge, huge part of it. And and so alan you have shared so much unbelievable information with us and i i'm absolutely certain that people feel really inspired having listened to you and i just wondered if we could finish with your top pieces of advice you know what is it if listeners are just going to remember two three four things or points that they would then maybe share with

friends and family what what are your number one messages? Well, my number one thing is if you are adopting a plant-based diet, go out there and explore. Look, you can pick up my book. It explains all the science. We've got 80 wonderful recipes. You've got incredible recipes out there. But if you don't want to buy a book, there is literally millions of healthy plant-based recipes online. Go onto YouTube and just look for healthy plant-based recipe, and you'll find an immense number of food choices. Find meals that are appealing to you. You spoke earlier about how people can be intimidated and they don't want to make the change. Just make some simple changes. If you like cottage pie made with chicken, why not make a cottage pie made with lentils?

If you like having pizza three times a week, why not explore making a pizza without using animal products? So find foods that are familiar and comforting to you and make a plant-based version of them. And you'll find that not only are they tasty and enjoyable and have interesting new flavors that your palate will enjoy, you'll actually find yourself feeling better and having more energy and less bloating and less abdominal discomfort and better digestive health. So go out and explore. The second thing I would say, Ellis, don't put too much pressure on yourself. If you're making this change, this is one of the things that we talk about within the book, within the 28-Day Revolution meal plan, is don't let perfection be the enemy of progress. So if you're jumping into this thing and you decide you're going to be plant-based, and then after a week you sneak out and have a bacon butty, that's not a disaster. Don't be

hard on yourself. Give yourself a break. Be kind to yourself. Maybe go back and read a little bit more science. Have a little bit of think about it., you know, get back on it whenever you feel ready. So don't put a lot of pressure on you. And the third thing I would say is pull in support when you're making any healthy change in your life, whether that's your diet or your lifestyle. It's really, really helpful to have support. So explain to your family why you're doing this. Maybe pull in a friend or a buddy who can take the challenge with you. You know, back in 2016, when my wife and I decided, finally, look, we're doing this. We are going to be completely plant

based. The science is undeniable. This is a healthy option for us, for my patients, for our family. We joined up with another couple, some of our best friends, and we all did it together. And it made it such a really enjoyable experience because we were swapping recipes and cooking extra and dropping it up to each other's houses and sharing great resources with each other. So make made it such a really enjoyable experience because we were swapping recipes and cooking extra and dropping it up to each other's houses and sharing great resources with each other. So make it fun. It shouldn't be about deprivation. It should be about fun and pulling in the support of your friends. I absolutely love that. I couldn't agree with those points more. I think that was so, so well said. Alan, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.

Ella, thanks so much. It was a real pleasure speaking with you. It was. That was absolutely brilliant. I'll pop the link to your book and all the details of it in the show notes for everyone who wants to follow up for more information. Otherwise, please do share the episode with friends and family if you've enjoyed it. And have a lovely, lovely Tuesday. Have a brilliant week.

And we will see you back here next week. Thank you so, so much. Bye. You're a podcast listener, and this is a podcast ad heard only in Canada. Reach great Canadian listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad Thank you.