The Wellness Scoop - Coffee, Calories, Cancer Risk & Real-Life Wellness

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

Welcome to a very special episode of The Wellness Scoop, recorded live with our amazing community. In today’s show, we’re asking whether coffee could help you age better, if cutting calories might actually harm your mental health, and why new research says exercise could be more effective than drugs in stopping cancer from returning. We’re also diving into the latest concerns around microplastics and tampons, the truth about step counts, and the role of food in supporting hormones, energy and emotional wellbeing. Plus, we’re taking brilliant questions from our live audience, from fasting and kids’ food language to organic veg and the pressure to be perfect. Whether you were in the room with us for the event or you’re listening for the first time from home, thank you for being part of this incredible community. To get the exclusive gift box from Shokz, order via this link: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/44MSOxI⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to The Wellness Scoop, your weekly dose of health and wellness inspiration. And as always, we're here as your hosts. I'm Elamel. And I'm Rhianna Lambert. And after a decade in the wellness industry, we know how overwhelming and confusing health advice can be. So that's why we created this podcast to cut through the noise and make healthier living simple, fun and personal. Oh, we just love it here guys.

Okay, so we have gone on our little summer break and we would not leave you high and dry. So you guys have all been asking for the live show. Will we be able to share it? You missed out, you wished you could be there. It was amazing. And I think community is so important to both of us and we just as we always say we so appreciate every single person who listens to this show who interacts with us. And so we've been working on finding a way to share some of that live show with you. So here is the Wellness

Scoop Live. Oh, what a welcome. Welcome everybody to the Wellness Scoop Live. We are so thrilled to be here. Quite emotional about it. I think when Rhi and I first started talking about this podcast, only eight months or so ago, we just would never imagine we'd be where we are today with this unbelievable community. We are so grateful to you all. And we have both just consistently loved the world of wellness, but found it busy, difficult to navigate, all sorts of contradictory opinions.

And we just felt we could come together and create something that really created community, sifted through all that noise and to just be able to do that live is absolutely everything. So welcome, I just hope you leave this evening feeling inspired, empowered and with a few little extra nuggets of knowledge. We will start the podcast first of all by moving on to our headlines that matter. OK. Now, this is where you need to scan that lovely QR code that

we're going to get on the screen. And we're going to be doing a few quizzes and questions. So we get to get you involved. We don't often get the opportunity and we often sit there don't we Ella between us and say what would they say? Exactly every week when we're recording we sit there and we look at each other and we're like I wonder if this is just us that's worried about this or just us that finds this a bit overwhelming or stressful and what do our audience think? So I hope you don't mind but we really want to get you

involved and understand a little bit more on what you think about each headline as we go. So please scan the code. These are all anonymous. Don't worry. And let us know the answers. I knew it was coming. So first up, we've got, are you a coffee or match a green tea drinker?

Do you know what? I knew this was going to happen. I knew I'm in the minority. Interesting. Okay. So, so far, we've got coffee polling way higher but green tea is not doing bad and matcha and a mix of the two. And I've got good news. We have got some interesting new headlines to show that actually there

are so many benefits to coffee but I think lots of us would love to hear this one. Our first headline today is that women who drink coffee age better Says a 30 year old study from Harvard Do we love to hear that? Maybe I should start drinking it more. Okay, it's not a miracle drug, but researchers who track nearly 50,000 women found very clear benefits and as an avid coffee drinker, I was thrilled to see this. I definitely wanted to get it in the script for today. So this team at Harvard School of Public Health

followed nearly 50,000 women for more than 30 years as part of the nurses' health study. And the women were aged between 45 and 60 when they joined. This is all the way back in 1984, and the research has just come out recently. They tracked their diet and lifestyle as well as their physical and mental health for three decades. So we're looking at people into their 70s at the end of this. Yeah. And I think what's so interesting is this isn't decaf, guys. Just, you know, this

is the full caffeinated coffee. And what we had here was that the outcomes that we've got are way more than just the aging here. So we're looking here was that the outcomes that we've got are way more than just the aging here. So we're looking at aging in a way where we feel well, not where we're feeling poorly. So it includes major chronic diseases like cancer, stroke, type 2 diabetes, memory. I mean, that would be great for me. I have a terrible memory at the moment. Mental wellbeing, physical function, but the standard was really high. So out of those 50,000 women, fewer than 4,000 met the full criteria for healthy aging. I mean, out of 50,000, just 4,000.

So the fact that coffee, Ella, consistently stood out, I think it makes it really striking. But it was three caps a day. So again, if anyone likes coffee, this is just more good news here. Which is more than I would actually recommend in clinic. Yeah, three small cups a day and every additional cup in midlife was linked to a two to five percent greater chance of healthy aging, but no more than five cups. A 2022 study as well that I've got that found that those people that drank the three cups a day, so they're 12% less likely to die over an 11-year period and 48% less likely to develop multiple cardiometabolic diseases. So like I said before, heart disease, stroke. But

you know, while coffee has that benefit, let's talk about the other things and the reasons why perhaps that coffee is doing this. It's because the polyphenols and what we do know is that these components in coffee, and this does vary obviously and I'll get into that in a bit on the quality of coffee, obviously it's not a miracle, but these antioxidants are good for our gut health and then our gut health in turn, which is constantly sending signals to our brain from our gut, they're constantly in communication, could be the actual reason why. So is it the coffee? Is it a healthy gut? Ella, I think there's, you know, research from Harvard was clear, you know, coffee was the reason for the ageing, it said.

But I think there might be more to it. Yes, but it's always good to find the positive headlines, isn't it? And I think you guys probably might remember, well, certainly it really stood out to the two of us. A few months ago, we were talking about that other study in Nature Medicine that was tracking almost 500,000 UK adults to understand the impact of diet on life expectancy for this reason because the researchers from Harvard were very keen to overemphasize that coffee

is not a miracle drug, unfortunately. And they were looking at, again, exactly that, that it's the diet full of the Mediterranean's diet, nuts, legumes, all your beans, pulses, fruit, veg, and that's what's really making the difference on top of your coffee to aging. Yeah, exactly. And it brings us back to ultra-processed foods, which we're going to get onto later. But these are the items obviously aren't associated with them, but they are the cheaper items and the more convenient items.

So notably I've got here that the benefits of the higher quality diet obviously weren't linked to weight or calorie restriction, which we are also delving into later on today, but these gains were independent of BMI. So what mattered most was the nutrient density of the diet, the overall quality like Ella said, fewer UPS which I think is important. But re-talk to us about the quality of coffee because you can get any type of coffee, you know Starbucks now making protein coffee, it's a kind of pretty wide range. I saw a lavender matcha as well.

What's the difference in terms of the impact on our health? So I made a few notes for this one and I think it's pretty safe to say, I'm sure most of you would know this, isn't your instant coffee you'd probably have at home out of the jar. The quality of the coffee bean matters. Now, I didn't actually know this, but it depends on the grade and the label grades. Has anyone worked in a coffee house before? We've got someone here. Yes, yes. Don't worry, I'm not going to put you on the grade and the label grades. Has anyone worked in a coffee house before? We've got some in there.

Yes, yes. Don't worry, I'm not going to put you on the spot. Very, very interesting because it says here, lighter roast, so those labeled as grades one to two, tend to have the more polyphenols, so more of those antioxidants that are linked to the health benefits that we're describing now. The processing and the chemicals. I don't think we realize how much processing goes through your regular coffee bean to create the outcome of the coffee itself. So instant coffee contained levels that were lower, obviously, of those antioxidants,

but higher levels of aclamide, a chemical found during roasting that had been linked to health concerns. So this is another flip side here. Pesticides also came into question. I wouldn't actually have thought of coffee as being a huge culprit, would you, of pesticides? No, I wouldn't. No. It totally threw me. And I think organic coffee, it's one of those few examples where choosing organic might be

a good example. But who buys coffee and looks for organic on the label? I don't, but maybe I should. Three cups of light roast organic coffee. That's the that's the tip from today's headline. That's that's the gold standard. So you see the nuance comes in again here. Like I was I wouldn't normally recommend people to have so much caffeine

throughout the day. But again, when you take a particular food item in isolation, you can claim all sorts of health benefits. But ultimately, if we age better, maybe we should do it. A UPF-free diet, three cups of light roast, a coffee, and we're absolutely golden, apparently. Yeah, I know, I know. And then the one other fact that I've got, guys, that might be interesting for you is darker roasts may have higher levels of the harmful aclamide that we don't want.

That's the chemical that's formed during the roasting. Look on your packet for the label grades. You want one to two. Label grade coffee, if you have a notepad or a phone with you, that's what you need to look for because that contains more antioxidants. If you're looking for coffee for aging, grade one to two. It's a funny one though because this one was picked up absolutely everywhere. We always talk about this when there's headlines that the kind of headlines people want to see,

they go so viral versus the slightly more mundane ones. And this one had a big spotlight because everyone wants to know it's good. We all drink coffee. Look at our stats at the beginning. Whereas I am a matcha drinker still and I'm still not, I don't know. I'll think about this one. I'll think about it, Ella. Ella, what's on our next headline? Okay, our next headline is quite different and actually it was, I think, a really, really important one and something that was very important to the both of us in terms of trying to create this community where we're feeling it's all about positive nutrition, it's all about empowerment, it's what are we adding

into our diets and not trying to create a kind of quick fix a six-week plan Something that makes us feel deprived or like we're constantly compromising and this was just a really interesting headline that showed a new study Suggesting calorie restriction may be linked to worsening depression and it's actually one of the first times we've seen something like that So we have a few questions again. It's completely anonymous I appreciate these ones are a bit more personal than like do you like match or coffee? But we're just interested to see how commonplace actually these sorts of diets are so have you ever tried Heavily or quite heavily calorie restricted diet again. It's completely anonymous and by the way most people have Again, if you look at the general population, so there's nothing shameful about it.

Yeah, so we're about two-thirds of people have, which I would say, as I said, it's nothing to be ashamed of. It's so completely normal. I guess our curiosity is just anecdotally speaking, how did that diet improve or detract from your mental health? So, of course, this is the thing is that every journey is very individual when you discuss relationships with food and the outcome that you want to gain from embarking upon a diet. But today, I think we're going to focus on more of the mental health link.

Absolutely. Yeah, between the two. So we had this headline because a new study suggested that calorie restriction is linked to worsening depression. And it was actually published in the BMJ, so a big journal on nutrition, preventative, and health. And it analyzed data from more than 28,000 adults. And it was actually taken, so it's quite a good sample size, very good, via the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. So

it looked at the diet quality and depressive symptoms, and it found that people who were actively restricting their calories reported significantly, and in research, if you say anything significant, it's crossed a barrier of being kind of a legitimate outcome. So significant high levels of low mood, fatigue, disturbed sleep compared to those who weren't dieting at all. Yeah, it's really interesting. The link between diet and mental health feels like it's getting stronger and stronger and it's very nuanced. But actually this is so meaningful again in terms of how we really reiterate the need for positive nutrition. And I think interestingly,

although maybe not surprisingly to some extent, the effects were more pronounced in people living already with excess body weight, but also interestingly in men, which I don't know if anyone would have expected that. But Ria, I wondered if you could talk us through a bit of that longstanding link between diet and mood, like the SMILES trials and things like that. Yeah, absolutely. Because when we're restricting our energy intake, we've also got to remember we get a depletion of nutrition because your overall nutritional intake has changed. So your omega-3 levels would be questionable again, magnesium,

iron, all sorts of areas can be depleted. But the SMILES trials was really groundbreaking for the nutrition industry, purely because it was the first randomized control trial that we had that had a significant concrete link that, hang on a minute, diet can actually make a difference in how we feel because we'd all been saying it for so many years,

but we hadn't got the actual study and the actual data there. And again, it's linked to gut health and it followed the Mediterranean diet. So to be concrete, there. And again, it's linked to gut health and it followed the Mediterranean diet. So to be concrete, the participants were all experiencing some sort of clinical depression that were in the trial group. And they were given several different options of conventional therapy or the Mediterranean diet. And those in the group with the Mediterranean diet had

better outcomes for their mental health than conventional therapy Now this doesn't mean that therapy doesn't work. It just means hang on a minute If a Mediterranean diet feeds our gut health, it feeds our heart. It helps us feel better We need to be taking this seriously because let's be honest I mean, it's not like we're being supported in our diet anywhere else in the world. If we don't take on us on ourselves, sometimes it can feel that way. So that would be what I would say is that it's really opened the conversation for nutrition professionals and scientists to say, let's get more fiber and

diversity and follow a Mediterranean diet. Absolutely. And I think it's so easy, isn't it? When you're so busy and that's something I'm sure everyone here can relate to and you're juggling your job and all sorts of other commitments to think, oh it doesn't really matter what I make for dinner tonight, but actually all those incremental changes add up and it's not just a physical impact or an aesthetic impact of what you choose to cook and choose to eat, it's actually that impact on your mental health as well. And I think on the flip side, this study was showing where people were just restricting

calories and they weren't changing their diet. So they were low in B vitamins and all those other vitamins and minerals that you mentioned, Rui. They were then seeing actually their mental health really declined, whereas we're seeing positive nutrition can really, really boost mental health. Yeah, it's really hard. If you're on an energy restricted diet, so I like to use the word energy instead of calories a lot of the time, just purely because

I think it's a nicer way to look at it. We know calories aren't fully accurate anyway when you're doing calculations. They're a rough estimation or equation that was created that's quite outdated, 150 years to be outdated to be precise. But if you look at the impact on your gut from not getting the amount of diversity. Every time you eat it's an opportunity to give your body something and if you're literally minimizing that, the knock-on effect on cultivating that incredible gut microbiota and all that living bacteria that lives towards the bottom end of your digestive

tract in the colon area, there's a lot of it down there. And I saw research this morning, Ella, on the train on the way to Ella's today. And it said that those in tribes that aren't touched by Western civilization, like the Hadza tribe, had these unique strains of bacteria in their guts that have never been seen in other communities. And they looked at Italy, they looked at the UK, all these different countries that even have the other communities. And they looked at Italy, they looked at the UK, all these different countries that even have the Mediterranean diet. And that's because of the amount of fiber they have.

And they're not surrounded by diet culture. And it's so interesting, isn't it? Because at the moment, we're seeing so many headlines around like, yeah, get ripped for summer, kind of bikini bod in six weeks type thing, where it really feels about that restrictive message again, or your carnival diet, and where again, you're really removingore diet, and where again you're

really removing the fiber, which is the absolute opposite of all the evidence that's mounting in terms of how you improve your mental health through food. I think interestingly, again, not probably completely surprisingly, but just in this conversation around ultra-processed food and how fast it's changing, this was just another example where the people who were restricting their calories and that restriction focused even more on what they were eating actually being ultra processed food, refined carbs, saturated fats, ultra processed meats, sweets. They were even more likely to report depressive symptoms on top of just the impact of the calorie restriction.

A hundred percent. And I think it's important to remember that everyone can fall into these traps. And I did chat to Ella and I said, should I share this, should I not? I think I've shared it with someone once before. I experienced definitely when I used to be a singer before becoming a nutritionist and studying in this area, I remember I ate very poorly. I used to buy Weight Watcher's products because I thought they were the gold standard of health. I honestly had no idea. it was all about calorie counting

It was all about restriction and I remember going to my doctor because my mood was so low and instead of even Questioning my lifestyle. I mean this is many years ago. I'm sure today and I hope there would be more Discussion about mental health. I was just subscribed not subscribed. I was prescribed imagine subscription to antidepressants. Great. No, I was very young as well, very young. Instead of getting any concrete advice or anywhere to go to, I was just given antidepressants. There was no question of my gut health, there was no question of my food, of my diet, of

the support system I had in place. I think it really goes to show that you can look at people and not know what they've been through. And equally, the calorie-counting message is so outdated but still so strong. And the subliminal messages that crop in everywhere, and TV advertising, and this is the lighter option on the packet,

or it comes in different shapes and forms. now we have this data Ella about mental health I think that's going to change so many people's views on calories that it's not just about weight loss calories can impact how you feel. Absolutely gosh I hope it does although I think we've all been having this conversation for quite a long time now but hopefully it does keep moving on and again I think that's why we're so passionate about building community and trying to spread this message of a different way of talking about health. It doesn't need to be a six-week diet.

It doesn't need to be something really dogmatic or restrictive or that makes you feel like you're not living your life to the fullest because food is such an important part of the way that we all live, the way we socialize, the way we come together. And it's such an important part of our health and the way we marry that just feels so incredibly important. It really is. Now Ella has done some deep diving in terms of diet culture and doesn't it go back a hundred years this messaging of low calorie diets? So I don't know if this was just news to me but it fascinated me and I wanted to share a little bit more of it so we started to work on a different project around the same time

that Rhi and I started talking about this show and about creating a way of creating a positive, supportive, non-judgmental community where we really encourage healthy habits. And I was looking at where did this kind of really restrictive view of diet culture and these plans and these just completely unrealistic ways of living. Where did it come from and how does it... Because I think one of our big frustrations is that wellness is so inherently linked to

aesthetics now and it's very difficult to, I think in so many people's minds, albeit oftentimes subconsciously, remove that image of it's about how you look from actually how you feel and your mental health and all your physiological well-being. And again, I don't know if anyone else didn't know this, but some of it absolutely boggled my mind. And the first kind of core diet that came into the kind of Western Hemisphere, this is more in the US though, was in the 1920s.

And it was the cigarette diet. I don't know if that's news to anyone else? It was news to me and I was so shocked by it. I told everyone I knew for a little while. And there was a brand called Lucky Strike, again, I'm sure lots of you know them, but they ran a campaign, well, several campaigns, but the slogans were things like,

reach for a lucky instead of a sweet, and they were all targeted at women, often with quite derogatory imagery. And it was all about promoting smoking as a way to suppress your appetite. And it worked. Apparently their sales almost tripled, and they had a lot more female consumers come into the brand. But it was one of those first kind of very subliminal messaging, again, about the link

between what you eat and how you look as opposed to what you eat and what your health is. We then had the grapefruit diet. That was 1930s, half a grapefruit diet before every meal. And the idea was that it contained, Rhi will myth bust this quickly, a magical fat burning enzyme, true or false? Well, I think we know it's a false. But my grandma used to have grapefruit every meal.

I wonder if she'd read that. It went on for a long time. 1950s, that's where the cabbage soup diet came in. And a very big magazine that I won't name and shame here, even five years ago, ran an article promoting it. And that was, again, simple cabbage soup, three times a day for a week. That's it. And that was again, simple cabbage soup, three times a day for a week, that's it. I mean, can you imagine the nutrient deficiencies from just having cabbage? But also like quite a lot of fart in it.

Well, it makes me think of, yeah. It's not very nice. It's not good. It's like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory vibes when they're on the bed with soup. Yeah, no deliciousness there. No. 1963, that was Weight Watchers. So again, that was kind of the first time calorie counting gets really big. As we've talked about recently, obviously in the era of Zempig and GLP1s, they have

very much lost their footing, filed for bankruptcy, restructuring, and bringing those weight loss drugs into their ecosystem. 1970s, that was the time that carbs became the absolute villain. Obviously, again, that's still going today in a different guise, but that's Atkins, which is absolutely huge. And then 1980s, which was, I think, the second to last one that I wanted to mention, that was when meal replacements really took off. Obviously now you've got brands like Huel, which are huge, but that was Slim Fast and Optifast. And in 1988, I watched this clip because it was absolutely extraordinary. Oprah, who had lost 67 pounds on Optifast, wheeled a wagon onto stage of the fat that she'd lost and the pair of jeans that she'd had before and what she was wearing now to

show how much weight she'd lost. And then a few years later, she said it completely ruined her metabolism, caused so much damage and was one of the worst things she'd ever done for her health. Oh, it makes me really sad. her metabolism caused so much damage and was one of the worst things she'd ever done for her health. Oh, it makes me really sad. It's just, it goes to show, I think when you're in Oprah's position, obviously no one can pass. I think she's fantastic.

I love Oprah. I think she's so cool. But I don't think that's cool. It reminds me of almost when you see the clip of Victoria Beckham being weighed on the Chris Evans show. I don't know if anyone saw that doing the rounds. She just had a baby and he gets the scales out and he makes her stand on the scales and says,

are you still the same weight as you were before you had the baby? I think it's just really toxic. And also you wouldn't get that, it was mainly women. You don't get male hosts having to showcase their weight and size. It was also on women. So I think a lot of this advertising, like you said, was really targeted at women.

Yeah. And I think the more I looked at it, you had things like the master cleanse that Beyonce then did. You had the special K diet. I'm sure everyone remembers the red swimsuit lady wafting around two bowls of special K a day. And I think it's just been based... I think what really struck me the more I went back through it was just how long it's a hundred years Essentially of the same messaging being reinforced and it doesn't work like our health is only worse It's only got worse and worse and worse by the decade our diets have got poorer and poorer and poorer As has our health and I think we just had this subliminal consistent barrage of diets that don't work that are all about restriction that are all about restriction, that are all about low calorie, they're quick fix and the effect is so poor but yet it's become

it's really subliminal and I think it's very difficult and important to acknowledge that in order to move away from it and again just to go back to where the headline took us in the beginning was ultimately it's just showing that actually these sorts of diets they're quite tempting when you're not feeling great and the headlines really catch you have kind of looked great in a bikini in six weeks but ultimately they're not healthy, they don't build great mental health and there's no long-term benefit to them essentially. No and you know we've had a hundred years of which macronutrient can we pick on next you

know we started with low carb and and then we went to high fat and then we went to low fat again and then we went to high fat, and then we went to low fat again, and now it's high protein, because you can't say low protein. And I feel like we're just going round and round and round in a circle of restriction and craziness, which is awful because 100 years ago, we didn't have the availability to food that we now have today, which is why the Ultra Processed Food conversation, our food environment comes into play here.

Anyway, we want to help everyone get off that wagon and just build a genuinely healthy diet for the long term. A hundred percent. And I think also when we look at our mental health, it's something that's really spoken about now, but it really wasn't 10 years ago. So if we put this conversation on the stage even 10 years ago, 20 years ago, we just wouldn't have been addressing people. We wouldn't have been having this conversation in the same way that we are today now. Because if you look back at the cigarette diet at the start of what Ella nicely introduced with,

I found that really, really shocking. But I remember, I think more 1950s housewife images being used for that type of advertising You know when they bought the ready million as well with cigarette the side as well And when I used to watch Greece that film it was very fashionable to like, you know Sandy does the little thing with the with the cigarette, but it's really important to say we now can discuss these things We can discuss our mental health. We have the facts We have the knowledge and we can make our own decisions and it can be very very difficult when you're looking on social media and places where calories are listed on every meal.

I would say unfollow that advice now. Yeah I totally agree, just move away from it. So let's ask another question, we're going to move on to our next headline which is a good one and we'll discuss why. So, do you think you get the NHS recommendation of exercise, and that's 150 minutes of exercise a week? Really, do you? No, I'm just going to be honest. I don't sometimes, just so you know.

I'm pretty sure I have weeks where I'm bound at a desk and maybe I do one session at the gym. It's definitely not 150 minutes. Oh, you guys are doing well though. Is it hit or miss for you as well? Super hit or miss. But you guys are very much beating, probably unsurprisingly given the collective interest in health and wellness, but you are beating the UK average.

Because actually only one in three, so about 34% of men, and one in two, about 42% of women in the UK get enough exercise. So well done, guys. Yeah, I know. Well done. The reason we are asking is because the next headline we've got, I'm sure you've seen it in the media

over the last two weeks, was about the link between exercise and cancer. And I think everybody in this room is touched in some way by cancer. And I think everybody in this room is touched in some way by cancer. And I think if there's something we could do that's in our control. It was a really interesting and emotive headline to come out. So the exact phrasing, just so I can give that to you correctly, is exercise, better than drugs to stop cancer returning after treatment is what the trial found.

So it was a landmark trial, the first randomized controlled trial of its kind. The RCT, like I said before, is the top of the top and the results were published in the New England Journal of Medicine. And it clearly showed structured exercise can transform cancer outcomes. Ella, I mean, wow.

It was such a positive headline. I think sometimes we get really bogged down, don't we, in the world of health and wellness, that it all feels a bit depressing and a bit kind of difficult to navigate. And this is so amazing. So this trial followed 889 colon cancer patients across the US, the UK, Australia, France, Canada, and Israel. These patients had completed chemotherapy and surgery for advanced colon cancer.

And then they were put into two groups, so a controlled group, and then the group of patients who began a structured, supported exercise program. And that was done with either a personal trainer or a health coach. And they were coached to hit these weekly targets. And that was the equivalent to them of two to three, three to four, sorry, 45 to 60 minute walks. But they could also change it to hiking, kayaking, skiing, a whole range of bits of exercise.

But essentially the key thing here was that they were doing very, very regular, very supportive movement over a sustained period so the trial followed them for three years of doing this program. And the outcomes are absolutely staggering. It's amazing. So the first three years in total,

and then after five years following up, 80% of those who regularly exercise remained cancer-free compared to 74% in the control group who were just given general healthy lifestyle booklet, you know, like you could dish out at the surgery. And after eight years, Ella, the survival rate was 90% in the exercise group versus 83% in the control. So that means that a 37% lower risk of death. I mean, fewer patients in the active group developed breast cancer too, and that was compared to just 12 in the control. So it's really, wow.

So extraordinary, isn't it? It really is. And I think, again, I mean, I don't know if you guys have listened to Monday's episode yet, but we were talking about how difficult, again, nutrition advice is to navigate about 97.3% of information shared online on Instagram and on TikTok didn't follow public health guidance. It was essentially wrong or deeply misleading. And with cancer, they had done some real research and they were looking at it, for example, with prostate cancer and up to 100% of the information being shared on TikTok was either misleading or incorrect in terms of things you could do to support your cancer recovery.

And I think what's amazing is then when you get this piece of research and actually it shows there's such amazing, amazing things more in people's control that we can all be doing to support our health but then it has such powerful impacts it's yeah trying to get that message across to everyone. I mean I think also it would help if just going off tangent a little bit but if we had more social support with exercise because it's so hard this study isn't saying you have to go to the gym a certain amount of times every week. It was saying everything you enjoyed that is movement basically. It could be anything.

And I know that if we had more of an infrastructure in this country where we took time or we had a designated hour break where you're encouraged to go for, what do we call it, a fart walk in the USA. A fart walk. Has that come out? Yeah, we did do that, didn't we? Yeah, we did we call it a fart walk? A fart walk. Has that come out? Yeah, we did do that, didn't we? Yeah, we did do fart walks. We did do the fart walk.

But you know, encourage, sorry to be crude, but encourage to do some exercise together or part of your job, then it would be so much better. So a review of the evidence in 2019 also found physically active women recovering from breast cancer were up to 40% less likely to die from the disease than less active women. We just need to support people and help people because when you read that you just think, yes. Do you know what? They interviewed a few different people who had been in this trial in some of the pieces in the papers on this report. There were some amazing stories. There was this lovely woman in her late 60s from Wales, and she had never exercised before

in her life. She was on this trial, and she had obviously been through such a difficult time with her colon cancer, but she was loving it. She was going to the gym regularly, and she said she never felt better in her life, and she was so strong, and she was so happy, and she wished she hadn't waited so long to exercise and the impact it had on her life and as you said I think it's just a really tangible example but you think like Joe Wicks in lockdown I mean it was extraordinary from his living room he was getting the nation moving and I think yeah these are the big questions of how we really have that impact in terms of

getting us all I mean we all find it difficult, but to really start to prioritise it because goodness me it makes a difference. And it's true in men as well, so I'm not just saying it's for females, so we've got the data that around 30% in men it helped with prostate cancer, so I think being still basically reduces the chances of developing the cancer in the first place, being active rather than still I mean and in 2016 here a meta analysis of a hundred and twenty six studies They looked at all the studies grouped it together Looked at all the data in one go and they found that people who did the most exercise were 20% less likely to develop

Colon cancer than their sedentary peers and another this also rings true in breast cancer bladder womb stomach and another, this also rings true in breast cancer, bladder, womb, stomach, esophageal, and kidney cancers. And that's just astounding, Ella. Absolutely amazing. It really is. And I think, yeah, fitting in structured exercise is really difficult in a busy life, but the impact comes, as you said, from just a 20-minute walk, a 20-minute HIIT class or yoga class or whatever it is that you like to do. And I think we always hold on to the fact that there was that amazing study looking at whether or not dancing in your kitchen got your heart rate going enough to technically

meet those NHS guidance for 150 minutes, and it does. So you could dance for 20 minutes in your kitchen every day, and you would get your heart rate going enough to meet the NHS weekly requirements for exercise, which again it just shows like health doesn't need to be complicated and expensive and yes there's a discipline element but equally it can fit into life. Yeah it is interesting because I don't know how in tune you all are with how you feel in your body but I do notice, it might be because it might be my age, I don't know, but my joints ache when I don't move.

If I've been sat down at my desk for a prolonged period of time for a week or two and I haven't got out for a walk, I really feel it. My head feels like I've got a thunder cloud over it. And I have to say the minute I take a quick break or I can go for a walk around the block or I'm headed into London I even I even enjoy now the walk to the train station because I feel obviously it's hard when you've got the kids at home to get out but that makes such a difference to how I feel when I'm going to sleep at night I don't sleep well without exercise no me neither it's like the ultimate mood transformer and I love how many people I

think it was from one of our very first episodes and we were talking about the hot girl walk and what a positive trend that was and how many people still tag us every week saying they're on their hot girl walk with the podcast. Didn't we have a hot dad walk? Didn't we say that was a weird name to call it? Yeah that wasn't a name. It can be a hot anyone walk. It's better than the fart walk. It is better than the fart walk. Anyway that's a good motivation for everybody to get more exercise. all of it, giving your customers more ways to order, whether that's in person with Square Kiosk or online. Instant access to your sales, plus the funding you need to go even bigger. And real-time insights so you know what's working, what's not, and what's next.

Because when you're doing big things, your tools should too. Visit square.ca to get started. Fandool Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, to get started. where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. We have one more headline here for this part segment of the show today. I was really excited to delve into this one.

Excited in the fact that I think I definitely used all these products. Absolutely. Okay, so our question into this one, excited in the fact that I think I definitely used all these products. Absolutely. Okay, so our question for this one is whether or not you are, as you say, like us, concerned, worried about your exposure to environmental toxins, microplastics, this conversation that's going on at the moment in terms of how these other facets of our lifestyle impact our health. Yeah, it's very, very current and it's something that's coming out week on week, it feels like. Yeah, it looks like we're largely aligned on feeling a bit concerned about that. I think it's something that we both definitely share in terms of a bit of...

I'd say that's the most concrete vote we've had so far so it's definitely of interest. Ella do you want to delve into the headline there? Yeah well we've been talking a lot over the last, particularly I think over the last six weeks or so, about the impact of microplastics of these different environmental toxins that are around us because I think it's so important it's so easy when you're thinking about health to think about broccoli to think about carrots to think about a HIIT workout. But actually when you zoom out, health is so much more than that.

There's a facet of different foundations, be that sleep, be that stress management, be that your diet, be that exercise. But it's also the world around us and I think that's difficult because that's so much harder to control or to have any kind of input on But I think it's something that we're both very aware of we both definitely did a plastic clean out the first time we were talking About microplastics and how they're starting use a lot of data coming out to show they're starting to really accumulate in very critical human Organs, and I think the one that stuck with me was that our brains now according to one study are an average 99.5% brain and 0.5% plastic.

That's the best part of a spoonful of plastic in all of our brains, which is absolutely terrifying. They've also seen on all sorts of other organs, livers, kidneys, knee and elbow joints randomly, blood vessels, reproductive organs, lungs, placentas, bowed marrow. But it just starts to feel quite terrifying. And I think this headline really links into it, which is about toxic tampons. So, Rhee, tell us a bit about this one. So, we saw this and I thought straight away, oh, wow, I've definitely probably used toxic

tampons in my life. You know, I'm sure everybody feels like this is a conversation we don't fully have enough answers or anybody speaking about and of course the impact of this could be much larger than we initially thought. We don't want to fear Munger and by the way I still have plastic items in my house I haven't just gone and done not everything in my house is made of wood but I was very conscious. I've got this image of you living in like a Hansel and Gretel cottage in the forest. It would be nice, wouldn't it?

A gingerbread house. But no, I couldn't tear the kids away from their favorite plastic cups, so that did have to stay. But I have the stats here. We wanted to bring this research to the show. A study by the Pesticide Action Network UK, so the Women's Environmental Network and the Pesticide Collaboration discovered that some tampons contain a pesticide called glyphosate, which is something we've actually discussed as well in relation to oats, believe it or not.

And I was like, oh, glyphosate is back in the headlines. So at levels of 40 times higher than the legal limit for drinking water. Yes, so that's in some mainstream tampon brands. The glyphosate is levels 40 times higher than the legal limit for drinking water, which is quite something because it's an area that doesn't have really any regulation on it. No, and it is classified, this particular pesticide, as a probable carcinogen for humans by the International Agency for Research on Cancer.

So whenever we discuss things like processed meat or it's all by this IRAC, that's how they classify what's carcinogenic or not. And it's based on probable risk. So it's not saying it is, it's saying your risk of cancer is higher. And that's a really important definition to make. But it is part of the World Health Organization, this particular governing body, and it's been linked to the development of Parkinson's, Ella,

and emerging research is raising concerns about links to other serious health conditions because the chemicals are obviously absorbed through the vagina, can directly enter the bloodstream, bypassing our body's detoxification systems. Of course, you don't go via the liver. And this means that even small traces of chemicals in direct contact with us pose health risks. Yeah, it's really...

I think we were both quite startled when we saw this. And obviously, yeah, the core of what we talk about is very related to, yeah, those more obvious parts of health and wellness. But as we said, you can't negate these other facets that exist around us. And I think it's just a really interesting example of how complex actually taking care of your health fundamentally is. And in this case, it's entering the tampon essentially through the cotton, and that's where the glyphosate is used and then ends up in the product.

But I think we're just so increasingly aware of the impact of all these facets of modern lifestyle and how it's collectively accumulating and impacting our health and how do we best look after ourselves? Because we didn't know. I think the thing is, you know, if you've used ready mills in the past we didn't know heating the plastic in the microwave potentially. There's all these different elements of our lifestyle that I feel it's only just coming to fruition as we make these podcast episodes every week. And there's actually no regulation, this is a fact for you, in the UK for chemicals in period products. None.

Unlike cosmetics. So cosmetics are regulated in the EU to avoid harmful substances going in but women's health of course we don't have anything. Tampons and pads here just don't have the same scrutiny as everything else. Yeah and I think we couldn't help but think when we were looking at this headline as well I think it shows a the complexity of health and wellness today but B actually the kind of discrepancy of what you now need to do in terms of day-to-day looking after your health and how expensive it is.

If we go all the way back to months ago when we were talking about this year's broken plate report looking about essentially the broken state of our nation's food system in this instance, but it was how actually healthier food is now almost three times as expensive per calorie as less healthy options, first as a few years ago. And that means now that one in four families in the UK would need to spend more than 25% of their disposable income just to follow the government's recommended diet. And obviously then when you start to take into account buying organic period products for example to be avoiding these chemicals it becomes

completely implausible and just really really Challenging really challenging and actually that broken plate report which I wrote about in in the new book the unprocessed plate I'll go into later But it's actually the figure for a lower income household with a family is 70% of their income would have to go on food to even eat well I know one has that so it is a real big concern, but the fact that we have no regulation again as women Maybe maybe I'm not surprised. Maybe maybe I'm not and hopefully opening this conversation We will start to see changes. Yeah, but I think it's's also easy I think when we first thought about microplastics we both got a bit

overwhelmed by it and I think again if anyone else feels that or they feel that kind of health anxiety creeping in it's not about being perfect it's not about getting everything right it's not about to a point where you like getting rid of anything plastic etc or anything ultra-prose is ever from your diet it's just about trying to find the right balance that supports your health but also lets you live an enjoyable and fun life. Can I give you a fun fact? Yeah. So with plastic, this really reassured me, it's actually the diet you eat with the more fibre helps because what fibre does in certain fibre strains flushes out the plastic residue in your system. So apparently the more fibre

we have, which we should be getting at 30 grams a day, it also helps excrete and push out all the plastic. That's one way of looking at it. But 90% of people in the country aren't getting their 30 grams a day. There we go. So let's eat more plants. More plants. There's someone in the audience wearing the most amazing t-shirt that says more plants on it. Yeah. So cool.

So go for her. Okay. So as always with the wellness scoop, we will segue from our headlines into our trends. Okay, so for this question, we are curious. Step counts feels like one of the big trends at the moment. I'm seeing people wanting 20,000 steps a day, which is quite something. Okay, hands up if we track our steps. Oh, that's enthusiastic. Whoa. Can I just ask quickly?

It's not on there, but who uses their phone to do that? So that means quite a few of you have helped tech wear. Yeah, do you use like a wearable device? Yeah, interesting, interesting. We're a high tech audience. Okay, and do we think 10,000 steps a day is fact or fiction? Hands up if you think that there's robust science that it's 10,000 steps. Oh no, okay, no, that's fine. You don't have to say. You don't have to say. Okay, so we wanted to talk about step counts

tonight because, as I said, it is literally everywhere. So the question is how far do you really need to walk for better health as we said a second ago that hot girl walk trend seemed to be one of your absolute favorites I certainly have always found the 10,000 steps a little bit confusing do you guys know where it comes from no it surprised me as well when I started to look into it but interestingly 58% of Brits are trying to hit the 10,000 step a day goal. So if you guys, everyone who raised their hands,

you are in good company. Well, Idanzo is literally the most amazing example of wellness marketing trumping fact, like 100%. There was absolutely no science whatsoever behind the 10,000 steps. Nothing. It was in fact made up by a Japanese brand ahead of the 1964 Tokyo Olympics to promote a pedometer called

a Manpoké, which I'm sorry, it's probably not the right pronunciation. But 10,000 steps comes from a Japanese marketing campaign in the 60s. And goodness me, they must be proud of their work because it's pretty effective. It is so effective because I think all of us know it's one of those subliminal things that does everybody knows but the good news is you don't have to hit 10,000. What a relief because research shows that much lower step counts do work as

well so we've got solid data now that the more we walk just the better for us and it doesn't have to be 10,000. I was so reassured when we were looking into this because I find, I don't know about anyone else, I just find getting in, it's that to-do list, isn't it? You want to get your fiber day, you want to get your 30 grams of fiber, you want to eat a balanced diet, you want to get sleep, you want to do something for your stress, you have to go to work, you have other responsibilities. And then I just don't understand how you get 10,000 steps in there.

Everyone on social doing 20,000. Hats off to them. I don't understand that. Maybe they just walk all day for work. Yeah, or a treadmill desk, maybe. A walking desk, yes. Anyway, I was really relieved to hear that actually there is such amazing evidence that even just two or three thousand steps a day, which is roughly a mile,

so not too far, just that. And this was a huge study over 100,000 people showing that just 2,000 to 3,000 steps a day was enough to start reducing the risk of cardiovascular disease, which I think is so reassuring. And literally every extra step count, so just five more minutes on your lunch break, just increasing 2000 to 2700 steps, so nothing at all, was linked to an 11% lower risk of cardiovascular disease and when you get up to 7100 steps, so when you're really winning at life, you've got over 50,000% lower risk compared to your less active group of cardiovascular disease. I love it, but, but, there's always a but. A separate meta-analysis of more than 226,000 people, it's our largest sample size so far, found that around 4,000 steps a day was the tipping point.

Okay, so if you do up to 4,000, that is great, but that's where the risk of dying begins to decline in a meaningful way. So larger studies across all age groups, obviously keep doing your steps, keep doing everything, but another meta-analysis said out of 47,000 people that those walking around 10,900, I mean, what a number, random again, steps a day had a 40 to 53% lower risk of early death compared to those with the lowest step count So I think people are very very confused and I think everyone's trying to get again a magic number of steps Ella Totally and all of this is looking at all sorts of different steps and quite random numbers like 7100

What's your what's your gate? What's your what are your biometrics? You know, what's your stance? What's your the width of step? But I definitely know people who would walk around in circles to close the ring to get 10,000. I did it for a bit. Did you? Yeah. I had an Apple Watch, which was a gift, very kindly, for an event I had done there.

And I got quite into it for a very short period of time. And I found it really, I can see why it becomes quite obsessive to track, because it was so satisfying to close the rings and so demoralising not to. I have to say in clinic, this actually dates back, I would say this step trend, obviously it was developed in the 60s by the marketing genius, but we always have a correlation between poor relationships with food

and addictive natures of tracking. So calorie counting, one method of numerical focus to link away from whatever is happening at that moment, or you're tracking the steps, another numerical focus. We seem to want to pin a number on so many things in order to gain a sense of control or relieve a sense of anxiety? I think that's why, I mean, I don't know the number of interviews I've done where the journalist will say, but what's the one thing we need to eat for better health? And you're like, nothing.

There's no one thing. Broccoli alone can't save the world. And I think it comes back to the same thing, isn't it? We want to be told what to do and we want therefore a magic answer. And there is none. But we obviously were talking about mood earlier. Around 7,000 steps a day, there again was a major analysis to show that that was associated with a 31% lower risk of depression. But that doesn't surprise me.

I don't think that's the step count. I think that's just the exercise that we said before. For sure. But I think it's when you start again, putting these things together in terms of the impact on a healthy diet or movement, it just shows it's so meaningful and it's so easy in people's busy lives

and when there's so much going on to forget that, oh, it doesn't really matter if I just eat toast for dinner or I get a takeaway or I skip going out for a walk or my lunch break, actually these things add up to such a meaningful impact on your longevity, your long-term health. Do you know what is linked is in the Mediterranean, so when we look at data of healthy populations in the Mediterranean, it's because the weather is better that most people do a walk after dinner versus what we do in this country.

So this links to so many things. I'm going off on a slight tangent, but it relates back to steps Obviously, but if you've had a meal in the UK this country as an example We just tend to sit and then we'll watch Netflix or prime or sky or whatever it is that you want to watch and then We just go to bed. Well, we scroll our phones and we scroll our phones We do scroll and we're not setting ourself up. I mean we do these things by the way, we do exactly this but if we lived in a different climate perhaps if we had more of a culture of steps and walking and it's more social This would become a norm if we all just got up after dinner and just went for a walk before bed There's so many factors here to consider

No, there really are but I think it's just yeah So minded this it's so easy to get overwhelmed by it all, but the evidence is all around these really simple things. 100%. So I've got one last bit here that we're all meant to obviously fluctuate in weight. And that's something to remember here, because I think people online are saying that these 20,000 steps, is that what you've been seeing? Yeah, it's kind of like how to be hot for summer, walk 20,000 steps a day.

This is quite an ask. How to get blisters for summer is what I would say on that one because I would need proper plasters on my heels. But we all fluctuate in weight every single day between two to three kilos naturally. Every day, two to three kilos? Yeah, every day. It can vary around the cycle, the stage of menstruation or perimenopause, menopause,

a female is in, for a man as well, with water retention. All these issues happen. The meal you had the night before, the diet that day, have you had a bowel movement? There's so many factors, but I wanted to just raise a little theory, and I put this theory in the Science of Nutrition books. It's called set point theory. And it's not something all scientists agree with, again. But most of us nutrition professionals

believe we have a set weight that our body uniquely is meant to sit at. And that is a range of 0 to 3 or 4 kilos, either way, depending on where we're at. And that particular set point isn't based on what the magazine tells you, what a celebrity weighs, what someone else says it should be. It is where you are healthiest. It's where you are less likely to get sick, where your immune system's well, where you

function and feel better every single day. And I think if we all just knew about this, we could embrace the fact we're all meant to be different shapes and sizes as well. And these toxic trends that say 20,000 steps that shed the pounds, it just doesn't work that way. It doesn't. And it's also quite unrealistic. And I think when you put it all together again, it just goes back to it's too much pressure.

And instead, let's just dial it back. Let's focus on the things that we love, that we enjoy, that we can do. And just remember remember like a 20-minute walk on your lunch break is a massive win if you did that every day Wow, that's a massive win Oh, it's so good. I mean I don't do that and I really need to get more steps in I probably only get 3,000 steps a day sometimes. Yeah, me too. It's not bad. Yeah, okay So, okay, we've got some listeners questions next we. So we have listener questions in the audience and our first with the back. Hello.

What are your views on organic versus non-organic fruit and veg and are the nutritional benefits any different? I mean, I can definitely start on that one. Thank you so much. So organic, if you'd have asked me this question 10 years ago, I'd have said, don't worry about it at all because nutritionally speaking, and it's still the same nutritionally speaking today, the nutrient profiles of the two are very similar. There's a few marginal differences.

I think studied in organic dairy versus non-organic dairy, some of the components like the natural fatty acids you find in the milk or the phosphorus and certain levels of amigas vary. But I'd rather you eat the vegetables than worry if they're organic or not because you're still going to get the fiber, you're still going to get the nutrition. But flip it into 2025. And now we have a Climate where as we've discussed already with pesticide use and different things We are now learning a little bit more as scientists and there is a difference between Certain fruits and vegetables with their protective barrier, you know a banana I wouldn't mind so much because it's protected by its thick coating. But if you have a strawberry, obviously British grown fresh in season is the way to probably go over organic because things that

are out of season often require a lot more help, artificially speaking. Farming is very, very complex and is a real emotive issue I know as well. But some foods and fruits absorb more chemicals than others and we have to be aware of that. But some foods and fruits absorb more chemicals than others and we have to be aware of that. But most of the time if we just wash them really thoroughly we're totally fine and I would rather you all focus on getting more wouldn't you agree? A hundred percent I think it always comes back to the idea of like done is better than perfect. And again in terms of health and wellness I think it's really easy to try and do it perfectly and tick all the

boxes and exactly that go to a farmers market and that's lovely if you can do that. But again, time is generally speaking everyone's number one restriction, cost is another huge impact. The cost of organic food is actually outrageous. So I think do your best and that's again, that's a massive win. I think we should all be really proud of every step we take in terms of supporting our health and our family's health. 100%. So I think to conclude, I would just try and opt for more in-season over worrying about organic at this point in time.

And as much diversity as you can getting those 30 different plants a week, again, above and beyond a focus on that. Absolutely. Great question. Sorry, it's a bit of a long question. I need to read it. So I have a two and a five year old and I'd love your take on healthy and unhealthy foods. My daughter's been coming home from school talking about certain foods being unhealthy or healthy, which she's been taught that day. I try really hard to explain this about balance and moderation, but would love some other guidance and suggestions.

I want my kids to have a good healthy relationship with foods, whatever that may look like, and I work really hard to make sure that they have home-cooked, balanced meals, and I don't want my efforts to be undone by school. Well, first of all, they're really lucky that they have you as their mum to do that. My daughter has been doing something quite similar in terms of coming back exactly and being like Coca-Cola is bad, but now she's desperate to try it. And it's like so curious about what it is and when she can have it, which I've also found interesting because I think it's created a bit more of a lure around these sorts of foods than existed before

where she just wasn't really interested or wasn't talking about them. And we talk a lot about this because I think it extends way beyond kids and I think, I think Rui wouldn't mind me saying both of us had quite a difficult time kind of in the press and in the public eye, maybe 2017-ish, when we had been really enthusiastic about how important it is to eat well and the huge impact that obviously we know exists between what we eat and our health. And we were given a very hard time for being pretty clear on how important it was and how important it was to shift our diets. And I found it really interesting because people really attach to the idea of what you can and can't eat. And I think it's like we talked about a minute ago,

it's like everyone's desperate for rules and we like to live with a series of rules and I think we all find anything vaguely uncertain, difficult, so we don't really like nuance. And I think that's why it's this conversation, this is good and that's bad, but that's not really how anyone's life looks. And I think, again, it's this one thing to kind of do it perfectly,

but you can't really live in the real world and do it perfectly and go to birthday parties and your kids instance or you know go out for pizza and margaritas with your friends and then maybe an adult instance and I think it is about certainly for me it's really trying to get rid of that kind of vocabulary and instead thinking about what do you root your diet in and what do you root your lifestyle in and then everything else is an add-on and it's a treat and that's great, but if we only eat that, it's not great for our energy and it's not great for our sleep. And that's how I try and explain it to them.

So not to, I don't want them to be demonizing it. I don't want them to be scared of it, but equally I don't think it's right for me to raise our children thinking that like they should be eating those foods foods all day every day and I think it is a difficult balance I think it's difficult for bad and difficult balance for adults as well But I think it is about being honest I think that's something we talk about a lot that actually it is quite difficult to be honest and say like I know no one Particularly wants to hear it but like, you know processed red meat is like inherently really bad for us. We shouldn't really eat it.

That's kind of a fact. It's the same with alcohol. Like, it's really bad for us. That doesn't mean you can't ever eat it, but there's no evidence to show anything different and I think that we find it quite hard to be quite honest because we all like these things and, or generally speaking, and they're very much part of the British diet, and it's such a huge change to move to the diet that we all desperately need in terms of this much more natural approach. We can add as parents as well, if you are a parent,

I would rather be the one to introduce these items myself, so I can explain the setting. I've always let my, I say my eldest, he's five now, he's still very young, but have chocolate because I can choose the type of chocolate at home. So chocolate isn't suddenly an item, but I have drawn the line at things like Coke and I've drawn the line at things like barbecue sauce, I guess. I think you really have to choose what your boundaries are. And I'd rather do that myself with them than have them suddenly at a birthday party, have something they've never had before and go, Oh, really want that again.

And then you're like, Oh, no, it's hard. It's so difficult. There's no right or wrong really, is there? No. And I think the same applies for adults, but it goes back to, I think, A, as adults, is very much about having an honest conversation around the nutritional value of food, but I think it is B, about, yeah,

it's just trying to find the right balance. Good question, really good question, deep thinking. One more, down the front, Annie? Hi, so I'll rephrase it a bit. There are a lot of trends online, especially targeted women on Instagram, and I like some of it, like under the clean girl routine or aesthetic. And I know it's, you know, if everyone could have such a nice routine that nourished their bodies, their minds like that every day, it'd be great. But some people are spontaneous. And I know wellness is better when you incorporate it into your routine like in small bursts

across your days. But how do you deal with that pressure that comes with sticking to a routine like once you have one and it's coming into shape? How do you let go of that need to control everything to feel adequate, you know? I think that's such a great question. I think that phrase you had at the end of letting go of everything to be adequate, I think it's... I've always loved the idea that good enough is brilliant, and I don't think... I think we all collectively put so much pressure on ourselves, and I think particularly women

tend to put so much pressure on themselves and to try and achieve a kind of totally implausible, especially implausible for the long-term level of perfection. And the online world, obviously, there's lots of benefits, but I think one of the biggest drawbacks is you're slightly made to feel that everybody else is living this image of perfection, and they're not. They're just fundamentally not. It's not plausible, and it's particularly not plausible when you've got a job and all sorts of other commitments and

And I think it's as much as possible It's trying to tune out everyone else's noise and tune into into you and I know that's that's infinitely easier said than done I think we all feel those pressures. I'd definitely be the first to say sometimes I'll go online I'll see you have someone else's routine or the way they live that life and I'm like I should be doing that I'm like, I can't I don't have the time. I don't have the resource like I can't do that That's not plausible for me, but it's really easy to feel that pressure and I think same goes for wellness like yes, everything we've talked about today, you know eating properly exercising looking at the Lifestyle that you need in the environment around you. It's all really important. There's no two ways around that

I think we do as we said have to be honest about it but equally we have to enjoy our life and You know that means not sticking to something a hundred percent at the time and whenever I think if ever you feel like you're So hemmed in by some dogmatic rules that mean you're stopping meeting someone for doing this or that on the next thing I think that's probably the moment to take a step back and also life ebbs and flows like What's right for you today or what's plausible for you today? It's going to be different to everybody else sitting in this hall to me to re and it will be different next week as it will Be next year life has different demands life goes up and it goes down and I think your health and well-being

Has to go up and down with it and flex and contract accordingly. We're the total opposites. Ella's had a morning routine and always is so good at it. I love a morning routine. Whereas I still cannot get up half an hour earlier. And that's okay for me. And I just accept the fact that I won't be doing that and that's okay. And I think it works so well. We're very honest about the little things that we both do. Because we're different. You know?

I think, you know, you're an early bird or a, what was it called? A lark or a night owl. Night owl. We're all very unique and we're very different. And it can feel like sometimes we all have to conform and be the same. And that's really hard. It's like what you were saying a minute ago about weight. You know? Everybody's body is so fundamentally hard. It's like what you were saying a minute ago about weight.

Everybody's body is so fundamentally different. Everyone's lifestyle is so fundamentally different. So this idea that we could all emulate each other is kind of total nonsense. I know Ree's like number one bugbear is what I eat in a day because it's this idea that again we would all eat the same thing. Our lifestyles are all different. Our needs, our requirements, our time, it's so different. And so I think it's, a routine is lovely if it's flexible,

and I think if it's not flexible, it's probably... That's the word. I think flexibility. If you're able to be flexible, I think that's a really good word to sum up the answer to the question. And celebrate the small wins. There you go. OK, guys, that is the end of the first half. So take some time, grab a drink.

We're going to come back with a very, very different act two. Okay. So thank you so much for listening to our first half of the Wellness Scoop Live. We are coming back next Monday with part two. We are. And part two was a deep dive into all of Ree's research around ultra processed foods. I got to interview her, which I loved. So if you're curious about ultra processed foods,

additive stabilizers, emulsifiers, all the buzzwords guys, next Monday, we'll be covering that. It's a great, great show. We can't wait for you to listen to it.