The Wellness Scoop - Could Eating Less Protein Help Us Age Better? Body Image & Burnout

Episode Date: August 24, 2026

Could eating less protein actually help us to age better? Where is the line between genuine concern and harmful scrutiny when it comes to someone's body? And why are so many of us feeling burnt out by the pressure to optimise every aspect of our lives? This week, we unpack the growing debate around protein and longevity, explore the complicated conversation surrounding Ariana Grande and body image, and discuss the increasing pressure to constantly improve, optimise and perform. We also look at Gen Z's changing relationship with alcohol, the rise of tea as the new "Dutch courage", and what happens when social media leaves both creators and consumers feeling exhausted. Plus, we discuss the return of "What I Eat in a Day" videos and share our latest television recommendations. The Way app link: https://www.thewayapp.com/wellnessscoop For more from Rhi and Ella:  Order your copy of Ella's new book: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quick Wins: Healthy Cooking for Busy Lives⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Order your copy of Rhi's new book: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Fibre Formula⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sign up to Rhitrition+ and join Beat The Bloat HERE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I am genuinely so excited about today's sponsor because it's the way. Honestly, if you have listened to me any time over the last few months, you know I have become a little bit evangelical about this app. And I honestly recommend it to everyone. My friends, my family, people on Instagram, everyone. And she recommended it to me, so it's true. I've heard so much about it. It's just because it has had such a big impact on me.

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which is led by Henry, the founder, who's just the most amazing teacher. And he makes it seem somehow just incredibly simple, but exceptionally profound at the same time, which is a very rare skill. And I've been using it too. Yes, I've now finally begun a meditation journey and I've been doing some of the shorter practices on busy days because I completely understand why you talk about it so much, Ella. It really is a nice intro in for me. Yeah, it is, and I'm so glad. Anyway, it's helped me feel so much calmer, less reactive, more present. It all sounds like huge claims, but I just say, please, please, please try it if you're struggling with stress or overwhelm.

You've just got to give it a go. And the lovely thing is that everyone listening can definitely try it themselves. Exactly. So you can get a 30-day free trial, so just try it every day for a month. It'll change your life. All you do is head to theway app.com forward slash wellness scoop. Yeah, that's theway app.com forward slash wellness scoop. Welcome to the Wellness Scoop, your weekly dose of health and wellness inspiration.

As always hosted by us, I'm Ella Mills. And I'm Rihanna Lambert. And after a decade in this wellness industry, we both know how overwhelming and confusing health information can be. And that's why we're here to cut through the noise with our podcast. I have to be honest and say I'm pretending that that headline we can't covered the other day about five cups of coffee. It was all true and I should be drinking five cups of coffee because we are like mid move. We are in full chaos. I can't really sleep at the

moment because I'm so wired about just like all the newness and the change and making new friends and new school and where the Barbie dream house is going to go where we're moving to. I know it's insane. I do know that I spend a lot of my life overthinking things. Anyways, I'm so tired and I'm so over caffeinated, so I'm going to preface the episode with that. That's why we needed the wellness group today. I feel like sometimes life throws things at you. And apparently moving house is one of the most stressful events you can go through. I read that somewhere.

You know, alongside, what do they say? Is it marriage, no, not marriage, divorce, moving house? And grief, but I don't think you can compare those to. It's a very different scale, isn't it? Well, all of them are very different. Really different. Also, like, certainly in this case, I'm excited. It's just the chaos in between.

Anyways, it's really nice to hide from everyone for a couple of hours. So let's make this as long as possible. We've got Ella here today. I came back from Ella's the other day. We were fresh cucumbers in my bag, as promised. And then the 38 degree heat hit us, and that's probably not helping anyone's mood. So we're here to guide you through.

So Ella, apart from moving house, I'm guessing that's kind of surrounding your life right now. That's the core part of my life today. but we had such a nice day with Ray this week and her boys, which was so sweet. And the kids were all building dens and it was so lovely. But I also went to see Mama Mia in London at the West End. Never seen it before. And we had a really old family, not really old, sorry, an old as in they've been friends for a long time,

family friend of my husbands. But she is a little bit olderish in her 70s. And then so I was trying to find something that would be really fun for someone visiting London who's in their 70s and also a 5 and 7 year. old. So we went to Mamma Mia. It was unbelievable. And this isn't a spoiler because it's in the movie too, but like at the end, they just sing three songs. And like the whole, I mean, they sing the whole time, but as in three songs that you can like dance to and sing along to and the whole audience is standing up and the girls are standing on their chairs. Oh my gosh, it's so joyful.

You know, the world is quite heavy and it's quite like, oh my gosh, it's on fire and we're all at war and oh my gosh. And then to just to be in a room of hundreds of people. people like clapping and singing along to Waterloo. I just felt good. I mean, Abba is a classic encore kind of act. How many hits? I just, I cannot get over it. I'm so glad you saw it.

It's so good. Yeah, the name, Donna, the actress of Donna, she's like, you want one more? And everyone was like, yes. Anyway, it was very feel good. Oh, I'm so pleased because I think you're right, Ella. When I've also been struggling with this, the world is very, very heavy.

And sometimes we have. to remember what control we have over things. And I keep reminding myself, all I can do is put water out for the animals at night and try and look after what I've got to look after in life. And yeah, we've got to try and ground it. I have been very busy, Ella, because I have a big announcement on the 5th September. So look out for that with big projects. And then work is going crazy. But we've had lots of questions from you before we go into the bulk of today's main episode because what have we got coming up today Ella it's a lot isn't it okay the big one today um i'm sure you all saw it is about two weeks ago now so many headlines on could eating less

protein help us age better polar opposite obviously of all the um proteinification we've seen recently so we're going to unpack that for you we're going to do an interesting conversation um on whether it's okay to talk about someone else's bodies some big headlines on that at the moment um and the way some of celebrity culture can affect the way that we see ourselves. A little bit about young people and alcohol and tea, the rise of tea. Is social media leaving us all burnt out? Some things about what I eat in the day with a couple of viral clips that we're going to unpack. We're going to just revisit Banana Gate one more time because we've had more questions on there.

And we have a few recommendations and personal updates for you. But, re, before we get into all of that, which is a lot, thank God, because I'm trying to hide for as long as possible this morning. we had two questions that keep coming up. So, Rie, I think you covered this recently, but one more time because we've had more questions. What is happening to you when you have your baby? Is the podcast going to be paused for Matt leave? Am I going to fly solo? Someone said, I'm genuinely worried it will disappear for months on end as I rely on it so much for my weekly joy.

Oh, my goodness. No, don't worry. First of all, what's going to happen to me? I mean, I hope it all goes well. But aside from the fact I've got a lot. give birth again. No, we are maintaining the podcast throughout. It will be my also escapism and time. And Ella has put zero pressure on me to do that. She said I can do basically what I like. But for me, what I like is the wellness scoop. And it brings us both such clarity. And I feel like a

real sense of not just purpose, but headspace. And for Ella and I, this podcast is great. So yeah, We will still be here. Don't worry, you're not going to miss anything. We'll just be cocking off at Christmas, like everyone else, the usual time, that everybody's off on the festive holidays. And we're here. We're here throughout all of September, October, November, December, bits of it, January. Don't you worry?

Yeah, we will be here. I have to say, pausing it, I'm like, I'm so on board with us, as really just said, flying solo, I couldn't do it by myself. I think you could, but it wouldn't be fun because when you've got no one to bounce off of and talk about things, it's a very different vibe. but we both adore this podcast and this community and I think we just feel very, very grateful to be here. So don't worry, we're not going anywhere.

Okay, and then we've also had lots of questions on please tell us more about your house move. If you feel comfortable, lots of people in the comments section, very curious myself, this listener included. I appreciate this is very dozy, but I've loved hearing about your move and your gardens, so I'm wondering if we'll get more of the same. Okay, in a nutshell, I actually wrote, it's free to read, quite a long substack just explaining the whole shebang. So I will pop the link in the show notes, but really, really long story short, essentially, when we decided to move the country two years ago,

we fell in love with this house, which is not our current house, it's our new house. And it's in the exact area we want to live. It's actually a bit more rural. It's much closer to the coast. It's right by the school that I always dreamt of the girls going to. And it's really just where we were desperate to live. We've got lots of friends near. by from where my husband used to live. Anyways, the house fell through two years ago and we decided after a little bit of umming and aaring we really needed to and wanted to get out of London for a multitude of reasons. Our house right now came up the week later and we thought, okay, we just got to go. We bought it. Then the old house came back around to us and we would like to live there forever for the rest of our

lives. My husband keeps saying I want to die there and I keep saying if we could rephrase that. but we would like to live there forever and ever and ever. We have sold this house. And so we've just decided, although in some ways it's mad, it's really our dream house and our dream location. And so we've made the move. But yes, there will be full garden, even more garden than before. I can't wait.

I can't wait to be even more in the countryside. It's actually right, like by the South Downs National Parks. We're going to be hiking loads. We're going down to the beach with the dogs. I cannot wait. The only thing is we actually don't get to move into the main house. that we've bought until next year. So we're actually moving next door for the interim.

So we're doing a double move, which is insane. I know, but it's the long-term plan for our life. It's worked out, everyone. And actually, it's quite a sweeping statement to make, isn't it? That's where I want. I mean, to know where you want to die, Ella, is actually quite, I was thinking about that. That really stuck with me.

Yeah, we really want to live there forever and ever and ever. So let's see. Let's see. And also, I'm sure Ella will keep you updated and all of us. and I will be able to get more cucumbers. So don't worry, I'm sure she will. She'll have everything sorted in the new house. Talking of farming and gardening,

it moves us on to a lovely note that we had because we were asking any of you listening. Are you farmers? What's happening right now with the droughts, with climate change? How is it impacting you? And I believe you received in our inbox, Ella, this message. Yeah, so Kate from a organisation called Farm Ed,

so Farm Education, got in touch to tell us a little bit more, so thank you so much, Kay. She said, I heard you talking about farming on last week's episode and asking farmers to get in touch about how the heat and the drought was affecting them. This year's harvest was really early as the crops ripened very quickly due to the heat. Some farmers had finished harvesting their crops before they would usually have even started. The yields were low last year, but they are even lower this year, as we were talking about last week. Farmers are having to feed sheep and cattle with feed that they'd preserve for winter, hay and silage as the grass stopped growing weeks ago

and many are struggling to find enough shade for their animals. It's also too hot for the dung beetles to function as the ground is so hard so we've got lots of sheep muck in the fields that hasn't been broken down. New trees are struggling with the drought and we all wish we had planted them years ago as we now have had three really dry summers in the last five years so it's very hard for these new trees to get established. Vegetables are requiring a lot more irrigation and water supplies are limited so those farms are really struggling.

We found that our polytunnels in the kitchen garden here are reaching over 50 degrees. They have to be covered in netting to shade them from the sun, which has never happened before. Farming today on Radio 4 this week is talking about the effect of the heat waves on salad production in the UK, which is also worth a lesson. So, as we said, I think we're going to see so much more of this over the next few months because I think in terms of consumers, we haven't actually seen the impact yet. I'm immensely frustrated that our government haven't put out any guidance to the public or anything about food really in production chains. And I do feel like there's a level of responsibility for us all to be prepared for what is to come. We had a quote from Liddle last week, didn't we? Liddle, the supermarket here in the UK that said from July the 25th we were living beyond our means.

So thank you so much, Kate, for sharing that because it really is all the ins and outs of everything. As Kate quite rightly said, growing anything is immensely difficult. My garden beds this year, the soil obviously was radiating down. The heat was just insane and it was very, very unsuccessful with any crop. So I think it's just really hard at the moment. But we're now going to discuss something that I feel like I've waited a long time to come around, but it's not black and white. The first headline that we are going to discuss this week is called

Could Eating Less Protein Slow Aging? Yes. As I said, I'm sure loads of you guys saw this. We always talk about how the world of health and wellness is so confusing. It's full of conflicting information on that. By the way, I realized I mentioned Banana Gate. We're actually going to pick that up on Thursdays. So come back for that one.

But this is another one where all we've heard for the last few years, all you guys, I'm sure, have seen on social media is more protein, more protein, eat more protein, eat more protein. You must just sustain yourself on protein. We've seen this crazy protification of foods as we talked about this. obsession with protein. Then you open the papers and it's could eating less protein slow aging. It is so confusing. This headline itself, we took it from the new scientist, but it was absolutely everywhere asking the same question from a new study, could eating less protein help us live longer?

Read, break this down for us. Yes, it was absolutely everywhere and quite rightly so, but how confusing for you all. And I completely hear that. For me, I just wanted to laugh, going, well, yeah, I think finally we're discussing this, but the study isn't everything, it seems. And I have got a note actually from a very respected researcher in this area for us as well, which I'll read after. So the story was based on a new review that was published in Cell Press. So it analyzed more than 350 studies that looked at protein intake in aging. And the research has actually found that reducing overall protein intake, particularly reducing reducing particular amino acids, which is interesting, the building blocks of protein,

could support healthier aging. And they're suggesting this is happening because it lowers inflammation, reduces cellular damage. So the idea that, of course, eating too much protein could be not helping with these areas of health. And that in itself is something I've always, you know, we've both kind of caveat it and said, you know, it's just about getting the right amount for you. But people have been consuming excess because of marketing and,

all sorts of things. But before everyone starts getting too much into it, I think this was the biggest shock Ella that they ran this headline and the research was on animal studies. And for me, I just wanted to bang my head on the wall because now people won't take it seriously. It wasn't on humans. This is exactly that where something gets so blown out of proportion. I think we could say exactly as you said, I think the kind of core premise that they're looking at is the idea that eating less protein can affect the way that our body is using energy, improve our cells' ability to clear away damage material, which can impact our aging and the rate of which we age.

So it's really interesting, as you said, but the caveat is an enormous caveat. Almost all of the studies looked at to reach these conclusions, which are really interesting. No one is diminishing these as interesting things to look at, but that doesn't mean you need to act on them today, because they were conducted on mice, rats, flies, even on yeast, and done in very tightly controlled laboratory settings. And although in those settings, in these various different animals and yeast as well,

lower protein diets were linked with longer lifespans, healthier aging, in one, for example, restricting a certain amino acid called valine, could increase lifespan and middle-aged male mice by 23%. And so this is super interesting, but does it mean it translate to humans? We just can't say that today. No, we can't say that. You can never translate animal studies into human studies. What we do have is research from blue zones around the world and places that suggest moderate intake.

Like basically the boring line we say all the time, a healthy balanced diet that shouldn't be boring. Let's celebrate it is linked to long health. And I think excess of anything and aiming for a high percentage of one particular macronutrient is not going to be beneficial for everybody. But, you know, we cannot dispute the fact, of course, protein is still important. But I just think when you're looking at these sorts of things, you have to remember that the body, when it absorbs food, so protein, and it can go through something that we call gluconeogenesis. And I always think when you break down words, think glucose means creating glucose. Neo means something new genesis, like a new cycle of life. So,

you know, even having excess calories from protein as a macronutrient means that can be converted into sugar still in your body and can cause insulin to be released. And I think lots of people assume if you only eat protein and you reduce carbs, because we're going on to keto diets here and all those sorts of things that you don't have any insulin issues in the body. And I just want to try and explain before I waffle on about biochemistry is that all these macronutrients, protein, fats, carbs, they have a place in our diet. And we shouldn't be hailing one as more important than the other because they're all very important. They're essential for our health, ourselves to do the job they need to do. You know, we need to be healthy and we're so lucky to have access to food in this country.

So I thought we could get some commentary from Dr. Richard McKenzie. Now, he is one of the leading metabolic health scientists and he has just written a book which I was really happy to write forward for because it's really comprehensive which is called the protein myth. Ella, do you want to read out what he has written for us here on his response to these drastic headlines about low protein diets? Yes, exactly. So huge thank you. He's written this specifically for us at the Wellness School, which is amazing, noting exactly

what we said, which of these are very catchy titles and headlines. but he says, I think there are a few things going on that we need to explain. Firstly, there's no doubt we're living in a very protein-obsessed world where protein is marketed as a superfood that provides the cure a solution to most health-related problems as well as preventative health, improving our longevity and improving our general health, ensuring that we are less likely to succumb to certain diseases such as diabetes and cardiovascular disease. The second thing we need to touch on is that carbohydrates and fats have, over the last 40 years or so, being viewed as the villains for most health-related conditions.

Fat was the villain before low-fat products were replaced with low-sugar products that have now been replaced with high-protein foods. So that is where we are today. My background is in human metabolism. I've been working on research that tries to better understand disease processes and how environment interacts with these disease processes. Specifically over the last 20 years, I've been researching the starting point of type 2 diabetes, insulin resistance.

Insulin resistance promotes chronic, hypoglycemia, inflammation, endothelial, destruction and metabolic stress, which can accelerate cellular aging. Over time, these processes increase the risk of cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes and other age-related conditions contributing to poor longevity. I would argue that in someone that is in a calorie surplus, consuming more protein than the body needs is likely to contribute to insulin resistance. There have been a few studies that have linked branched chain amino acids to insulin resistance. In one of our studies, we found that the best predicator of those that progress to type 2 diabetes from pre-diabetes is the amount of amino acids, those building blocks of proteins, as we said,

in the blood sample at the beginning of a nine-month intervention. And in cell culture studies, and they've seen this a lot of times, amino acids can interfere with the molecular pathways that then contribute to insulin resistance. So back to this paper, I think it is an informative paper. It's a very catchy headline, and there are certainly links to, surplus protein when combined with nutrient overload on disease processes, and specifically insulin resistance and so reduced longevity. This paper is quite a large paper reviewing a lot of different studies in coming up with some conclusions that in animal and insect models, there is a link

to reducing protein with increased lifespan in animals. However, like most things, when you try and go too far from an animal study up to a human, it doesn't always translate and that's where they essentially conclude that the link between protein restriction and increased longevity is a bit more broad. So whilst they conclude more work needs to be done in humans, which is often the case, research to date is limited. I still don't think it's an issue that we can just flatly ignore, though. It's clear from research that if we eat too much fat, we get stick. If we eat too much sugar, we are likely to get sick. I argue that in a situation with excessive energy intake and low physical activity, and a large part of that comes from protein, we will likely get sick in the same way.

That does not forget the protein is also an energy source, and in excess the body converts the protein you eat into the fat or sugar that can be used as energy. So if you eat too much in the form of protein, I'd argue that some of the research that has been done today supports the statement. And it's worth highlighting that in a physically active, healthy individual, eating a good amount of protein to meet their needs, there is little to worry about. I could not thank you enough for taking the time to send that to us. he is completely correct. And in this new book, he gives a complete background into the fact that we fixate on nutrients as human beings. Excess of anything is not great. We really have lost touch, haven't we?

And the facade just seems to continue again and again. Do you remember that time when everyone, and it's still happening, are bringing out high protein books, high protein books because they sell? Do you remember there was that whole emphasis on this one nutrient? and it's the only nutrient that most of us are not struggling to get hold of Ella. That's what I find so remarkable about the whole thing. I totally agree. Do you remember that Michael Pollan quote, eat food, not too much, mostly plants? I still think that's like one of the best.

If you're going to just simply summarize what to do, because we can get so down a rabbit hole that there's that. And I think this is just a really nice moment to rethink the obsession with protein. Protein's important. We know protein's important. just like healthy fats are important, just like fruits and vegetables and fiber are important, good carbohydrates are important, it's all important, but it's important in a balance. And I think, again, that note that we just had is exactly that if we eat too much sugar,

we'll likely get sick. If we have too much fat, we'll likely get sick with too much protein. Like, it's just balance, which also is more joyful. Like how much yumlier to eat in a kind of balanced way than it is to have 100 grams of, you know, protein at every meal? Oh, I completely absolutely agree. And so many of you, thank you so much for sharing. I read the reviews and the Spotify comments.

And even on social media on our Instagram accounts, somebody sent us a lovely picture of their dad the other day creating a diversity jar and going, oh, I'm getting more fiber in. Or, you know, just they're the nutrients, the plants, like Ella said, the fiber containing foods that as a nation, we are not getting. 4% of us get enough. Honestly, let's just celebrate food a bit more.

So we have a very different headline number two. Ella. And it's one that Ella and I think have sat back on and watched and observed how it's escalated. And as women, there's also a discussion here on how we approach it. But of course, this is the discussion that's surrounding somebody very famous and very talented. My goodness me, what an absolute talent, Ariana Grande. Yeah. And I think, you know, just as Re said, like we've gone back and forth on this is everywhere in the news when it comes to kind of health, wellness, body. image. Should we include it? Should we not? We've decided to include it this week and we've decided to include it, not because we want to have a discussion on one individual and her body in any shape or form, but because the headlines that we feel were very relevant and interesting for that wellness scoop is the question of the dangerous line between body scrutiny and genuine concern. And that was a headline in the independent. The BBC ran something called Is It Okay to talk about Ariana Grande's body.

There was a fantastic episode on BBC Sounds on that. And it is everywhere, though, whether you open the Wall Street Journal or The Guardian or CNN online, or you're looking at BuzzFeed or the Daily Mail, kind of wherever you look, there are headlines on this. And everyone's discussing the same question, what is the line between body shaming, scrutiny, genuine concern? And this debate on kind of when, if ever, the public should weigh in on. this sort of thing. And it's a really interesting question. But I felt personally, and really obviously has our own opinions on all of this, but I think it was a shared feeling that actually there is a moment where I think we have to talk about these things, not because we want to shame,

embarrass point fingers at any individual, but because the collective view of what is normal for body image has a huge impact, even subconsciously, on so many people. And I think it's really important that we talk about kind of what a healthy body looks like because the influence of shrinking bodies, and that's not one individual. So many headlines again over the last few weeks in light of this about the number of shrinking, and we don't need to name all the names, but the number of shrinking size double zero bodies in the media at the moment. If we don't say it out loud, I just really worry that over time we will think it's normal.

My children will think it's normal. Everyone, you know, other people's nieces, nephews, neighbours, children around them, they will think that that's a normal body image and aspire to it. And that to me is really concerning and an important thing to talk about. Thank you, Ella, for relaying that. And this is also something that I feel applies to both genders, although we have a, we'll go on to men's body image after we've just started here because I feel women have been up against it from the test of time, you know, the dawn of

Hollywood stars, women, their appearance, sex cells, all these sorts of lines, how much of your body should you expose, how much shouldn't you expose? The music industry in particular, so cutthroat, you go back to that time, the circle of shame, which single-handedly made Heat magazine a success back in the day. It's so interesting that this was picked up, wasn't it? We both really enjoyed that BBC sounds. We'll link it for you guys to listen to. And they were saying exactly that pre-heat introducing, do you remember guys, those circles of shames where they'd like take picks of celebs on the beach or something and like circle their cellulite, yeah, or like a body, like a tummy roll or whatever,

all these normal, normal things. Before that, it wasn't anywhere near as successful as it was. once they started body shaming women. Women, specifically women. And this is where Ella and I stand really firm together, knowing that women face far too much scrutiny as it is. I think what's really important to hear as well is that we do need to be concerned as a society. And when do we stop caring about one another?

When does that happen? Because clearly mental health is linked to body shape and size. Everyone is meant to be a different body shape and size. I've said this before. We store fat, differently around our body in different areas. We don't all look the same. The bloating question.

You know, I talk about that on our beat, the bloat journey on Reeve Plus, that some people's wombs are positioned differently in their stomachs, which creates more of a protruding stomach than somebody else that you may associate as having a washboard stomach. Ria, saw a really good thing on that on Instagram the other day where someone was like, the only place of washboard stomachs and like six-pack summer bodies is your Instagram.

Go to a real beach. you won't see that. And it's so true. Like, you know, I don't mean it in a mean way, but it's just like, that's not what real people look like, even slim and healthy and, you know, go to the chip. Everyone has cellulay. Everyone has a role. Like, this is so normal. And I think that was why, as I said, we didn't want to talk about all the Ariana Grande headlines because we want to talk about her. We really don't. It's not our business. We don't know anything about her. And all we can hope is that if she is struggling that she has the best help available to her. But I think we wanted to talk about this because in this world where GLP-1s are having a huge

impact on culture as bodies are shrinking, I think we have to say nothing to do necessarily with her, but that it isn't a conventional healthy body for most people to look like that. And I think there's a moment where we have to say, if this is affecting you or you feel like subconsciously, like you're absorbing it, it's not the norm to look that way or to aspire to look that way. We have two extremes. We have a GLP world, but that also comes down to a privileged world when it comes to cost of access to drugs. But then secondly, access to maintain a physique equally that's that small, either comes at the consequence, the majority of an eating disorder, severe dietary restriction or immense, it seems to be wealth.

There is definitely something linking the societal discrepancies with body image as well and where we're ending up and that's access to food and all sorts of things. But there's many angles that we can delve into here. But let's talk about her music video petal because I think as an expression, as an artist, I really felt that it was such a fantastic idea. It was such a beautiful video. But what was so dystopian about it was, of course, we don't want to comment individually on what she's going through,

but it was sending a message that was very confused. I think that's where the media picked up on it. It's very confused to say, don't talk about my body, but I'm going to highlight my body. That's a very confusing message. And there was a very interesting quote, which I think is very apt from Jamelia Jamil. Some people liked it. Some people didn't. I liked it. She said, if we comment on her body, we could harm her mental health. And I think everybody feels that so strongly,

which would be awful. Of course it would. And nobody wants that. But if we don't comment on her body, we run the risk of normalizing that image, this image was talking about in petal, very emaciated, to hundreds of millions of teenage girls, kids and even impressionable adults consuming her content. And we have to remember even on Instagram alone, we're talking about over 350 million people that follow that single account. And so everybody is subconsciously, because this has been picked up everywhere absorbing this. And that was why I think we wanted to pick it up today, right? Yeah, we absolutely did. And of course, you can't make an assumption even. This is why I think the media go straight to, oh, eating disorder. You know, they link things together without much thought or care

and forgetting the eating disorders are psychological illnesses, of course. And not everybody with an eating disorder is stick thin and has that appearance. Eating disorders cover a wide spectrum and can impact everybody to those on GLP1s, just as much as those on the other end of the spectrum and everybody in the middle. You know, I think we need to be very, very clear here in society, though, that it is not healthy to be creating these thin spiration accounts. And do you remember we picked up Ella last year on those? It was called, was it, I hate saying out loud because I don't want to promote it.

Skinny Talk accounts. These aspirational lifestyles I sent Ella one last night that I'd seen of, it was more of a like morning routine, but she was clearly in that camp. And it was the most overwhelming amount of things to do in the morning. And I feel like these generations that have grown up with social media are exposed massively to that world without intentionally doing so. I was just curious. I went on to Daily Mail online, not because I wasn't listening to you, because I was just curious. And like the first thing that comes up in the sidebar of shame is about Emily Atec and her weight loss and pictures of her before and after. And like we are just quite

obsessed with it as a culture. And I and I think that's why we wanted to bring it up today. So look, that was, I think that's enough. I want to have a better word on this. But we just wanted to call out it's normal for us all to subconsciously be absorbing. of this and we wanted to highlight yeah I guess that it's not necessarily the norm for a healthy body or i think we just don't want this to become the norm again we don't want to go back to the 90s and naughty size zero double zero obsession um because it's very difficult for most people to eat adequate nutrition and be well in themselves and be that small so we have a voice note don't we read today to talk a little bit about this pressure

a celebrity image about body dysmorphia, because I think it does in some way, and it's a continuum, affect so many people, not just people diagnosed with eating disorders, but just a pressure to look a certain way because that becomes the norm of a culture. I think the cultural when is enough enough comes into question here. And that's why I have a voice note here from one of our experts in the clinic. And I just think it's really, really important that we have these discussions, we shouldn't shy away from them, like Ella said. For me, it's gosh, the compassion. When you're in a dark place and you're stuck in body dysmorphic negative arenas and spaces and it's a miserable place to be and I'm sure lots of you sadly can relate with that. So

let's just play what we have here from our expert today. Hi. My name is Dr. Suki Bielke. I'm a clinical psychologist and I work for the Retrition Clinic. Just, oh, I can say a doubt about this, just body image and, you know, the effects it's having. I think, like in today's society, I think for me, one of the main things is it's a bigger epidemic than what was before wasn't, partly because I guess there's so much out there in media, we're so much more exposed to each other because now we have another community, which is the online world, And when we have the online world, it's not just a community, another community we've created in our own inner, inner communities. It's a community where we're seeing each other more.

We're seeing bodies more. We're seeing people eat food more. We're seeing people shopping more. We're seeing so much. We're consuming so much more than what our brain is designed to see. We have so many mirrors now. We have so many, you know, selfies, everything's and selfie. now, so many mirrors all around us.

I think I was away abroad. And honestly, there was a mirror everywhere where I was going. But I always say we weren't meant as a species to look at ourselves or each other this much. So there is an overconsumption of what I call the mirrored effect,

which is seeing ourselves and seeing others a lot more. And I do think that has a detrimental effect. How would it not on ourselves and each other too? You know, because we're being mirrored. And comparison culture, that's innate within us anyway, and it's fine. But when it becomes too much, it's been it becomes a lot more toxic.

I think there's something about just, you know, where young people are these days. When we think about body image, they're struggling. People are struggling because, again, just that kind of comparison with each other. And fat boba exists as well. This is just my random thoughts, but fat boba definitely exists. I see it all the time. when you look around and you notice in this world, a lot of it is designed for thin bodies,

you know, going into waiting rooms in hospitals, going into schools, everything is designed for thinner, framed, or middle-framed bodies. They're not framed for bigger proportioned bodies whatsoever. Classic example is flights isn't in things where people have to, who are bigger in proportion, have to sit on seats and stuff like that. But you can imagine the effect that has on ourselves

and for those struggling with kind of bigger bodies too. Also, I just forgot to add just, you know, how body image links in on our sense of, you know, self and who we are. Obviously, I can name the typical kind of mental health difficulties that we can experience when we're constantly in that comparative culture, eating disorders, low self-esteem, anxiety and depression, self-harming, they're all on the rise.

For me, the major, major issue is we are disconnecting from our, our bodies and from each other. The last point is we're not taught as a society, you know, growing up, our schooling system, educational system, even ourselves at home. We're taught about, you know, major curriculums like English maths, I don't know, geography, history, but there's not a curriculum. There's not a, there's not a manifest for how we learn to take care of ourselves, how we learn to kind of nurture our bodies and our minds. It's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, not a given in schools and it really should be, it should be given in households, in early years, education and earlier experiences. You know, nothing was mentioned to me when I was, you know,

pregnant and with kids and things about how bodies change and bodies evolve. And that's the way they are designed. But we're not really taught about that for our lives, and especially in the schooling system too. So I do think there needs to be a bit of a big, big overall really, in the health and social care and education departments. Thank you so much. much for that. I think it's so important. And also to reiterate, this isn't just a female story. This is a male story as well. And actually recently, I think it's well worth a watch, especially I'm a mom of two boys at the moment. And it was a 26-minute Channel 4 documentary. And one of the characters, I don't actually watch it, but from the new maid in Chelsea cast, Miles, he investigates

something called Muscle Dysmorphia, which is called Big Erexia, Ella. And he explained that he was so all consumed with body image to the point it was impacting his everyday life. And there was one really pivotal clip that I saw with his sister where he, you know, on Christmas day, he'd got up at two in the morning, two or three in the morning to go to the gym so he could fit it in and then have his protein shakes and all the things he believed he had to have to look a certain way to live the life. And it was miserable. And he's raising awareness on that side as well. And I think it's called untold, obsessed with my muscles on Channel 4. And we might be a female predominant podcast here, but we are well aware that body image can impact everyone. That sounds like an absolutely amazing

watch, Free. Thank you so, so much for highlighting that. Okay, right, headline three, totally different, sure and snappy, Dutch courage, Gen Z. I would never know whether we're meant to say Gen Z or Gen Z. I say Gen Z, but I'm not American. It just doesn't feel right. Yeah, you guys, tell us what you think. Okay, Gen Z, Gen Z, reach for a different type of brew. Okay, so there was a new survey. Now, I think, let's just be honest, this survey was done by twining. So they're a tea company. They probably want things to look a certain way. But this is just fun, which is that 47% of 18 to 27-year-olds said tea was their favorite drink instead of alcohol when preparing for daunting occasions, like a first date or a job interview. Anyway, I thought that was really cool because people know

normally talk about Dutch courage and having a drink to get themselves ready. I hear it's hilarious. They said, yeah, 60% of Gen Z respondents said they made a cup of tea to mentally prepare for an important event. I think it speaks volumes with the shifting culture, Ella. I mean, there's nothing wrong with it at all. It's absolutely remarkable. I will still say there's caffeine in tea guys if you're having it later in the evening. Just remember that. I think this was like all sorts of different teas, like chamomiles and mince and like a lovely little brew. I loved it. Wow, a positive fact, see, of what a time to live through, that there are positive changes coming. The alcohol, oh, go on, what is it? Debbie Downer in the corner

over here. Well, interestingly, then doing a bit of reading around this, there was a report that came out from the University of Leeds titled, What's Behind Gen Zed, Gen Z's, drinking decline. And this was actually, I mean, whilst the drinking decline is inherently positive, we know alcohol's incredibly bad for us, so we should drink less. This is quite sad because, as we know, there has been this sharp shift in drinking culture. For example, 26 to 28% of Gen Z a T total. I mean, that's really high versus older generations. But as I said, very clear that drinking less is positive health outcomes. But their research in this paper was showing that actually what it also signifies is growing generational anxiety and insecurity around the world. So it's sort of a good news

story in one way for our health, but actually not such a good news story in terms of mental well-being. And that this declining alcohol consumption coincides with worsening mental health and increased loneliness. And also a feeling of insecurity that's exacerbated by the wider world issues that we know about the moment, job insecurity, cost of living crisis, climate crisis. So actually, I think it adds to this pressure to maximize health, productivity, control what you can control. And drinking less was seen as one of a series of actions that gives this sense of control against these overwhelming societal, economic, environmental challenges.

That is very true. To go back to tea, it is relaxing. If you have a traditional black tea or even a green tea, you've got the L-theonine benefits. We've discussed that before with Gabra in the brain. but I mean cost of living it makes perfect sense because alcohol businesses we were discussing this the other day weren't we Ella have literally plummeted and there's obviously a huge rise in alternative drinks category I saw Jay Shetty promoting a can of I don't even know what's in Jay Shetty's I can't remember what's in his but yeah he has his own one Junie I think

Junie yeah he's created one there's lots of people lots of influencers and celebrity culture are bringing out non-alcoholic drinks and wines because the market's booming. Is that correct, Ella? You're my guru in all areas. The market is growing. Yeah, it's very interesting. Anyway, I like the idea of drinking tea because you're nervous as a place to a drink. Also, so British.

I mean, you could not get a more classic stereotype. Oh, a cup of tea. Yeah, exactly. Terrified the world's on fire. Cam our tea will fix it. Our next trend was in vogue, Ella. I actually just nodded my head when I saw this. consumers are fatigued. Influencers are burnt out. What now? Yeah, this was in vogue business and it's a very

long piece. A lot of it says what lots of us probably already know, but there were a couple of interesting things worth picking up, which is basically, as we know, it's getting, even with the best will in the world, it's getting really, really hard for influencers, content creators, brands to cut through the algorithm, competitions fier and fiercer, the algorithm's more and more difficult. And consumers, unsurprisingly, just feel like they're being sold to all the time. And that feels a little bit frustrating. I think we did know that. But a couple of interesting things, the global creator economy, so influencer economy essentially, hovers around 250 billion. It's enormous. Goldman Sachs is forecasting that to grow to about $480 billion by 2027. So it is a

fast growing sector. But 73%, this was a bit that I thought was interesting to point out, 73% of social media users believe influences promote a lifestyle that's unrealistic to most. I mean, re-send me this video last night. It's like a three-hour morning routine. It's just, it's so unrealistic. It's unbelievable. And 58% of us, consumers, get bored quickly and they move on to new influencers. And I think that is also worth pointing out. So there's, The first one I think is interesting in terms of people feeling not great about themselves versus influencers. And we have to remember that their job is to be interesting and have newness because, as the second point says, we get bored so quickly. So if you don't have clickbait, if you don't have newness, if you don't have something that even creates that rage bait or that, oh my God, this is insane.

As per that contiguous. Not bad news. It doesn't spiral. It's not unrealistic. It doesn't go viral. Exactly. And I just think those two stats really explain. your feed basically. It's a saturated world. I think what's also happened is it used to be,

I mean, those of us that can remember the start, it used to be quite a small space and it was quite interesting. But now, because it's just being replicated, everyone's doing the same trends, the same things. There's no substance. So it's an enormous market. So there is so much money to be made. And that is why people are so busy creating content for us to consume. They know that we get bored really quickly, so it's got to have an element of clickbait in. And if you feel bad about yourself when you look at social media, basically everyone does because they promote a completely unrealistic lifestyle, whether that's time, whether that's money, whether that's kind of beauty standards. There's so much to it. But I just think it really explains why your feed can get wacky,

which I think leads on to point number two. It does lead on to point number two. Just before we go there, I saw this video from, I think it was Danielle Pisa, an old friend, and she created a video that said, Instagram's now got so boring that the people that are going viral are the ones that are telling you how to make content to go viral. And they're the ones with these accounts that are growing are the ones telling you. These are the trends of the month. This is what you've got to do. This is how I went viral. And then they're the ones that are growing.

It's insane. But it's also because it's such a big market, as we just said, it's worth so much money. No wonder everyone wants a piece of the park. They want a piece of the pie. Talking of pie or rather no pie. Like that. Go to Miranda Kerr, who I thought, before we do go into this, came across very well on one of my other favorite podcasts. The We Need to Talk one with Paul Brunson.

You know, the one I've recommended before where Kerry Ketona did an interview. But this, I felt was completely unrealistic and maybe she should have kept it to herself. Anyway, Ella, you go for it. Look, this is one of those things that's so interesting. in the sense of the virality. Because, yeah, I don't have any issue with Miranda Kerr as a general role. She seems like a nice lady. She said to nice things. But when these clips go viral, they're just really difficult for people to understand what to do and what not to do. So she went on to a podcast hosted by Kirsten Cavaleri. Anyone used to watch the hills? She was on the hills.

Oh my God, did you not watch the hills? When I was singing, I didn't have a TV in London. I missed the see I missed the hills like all these shows oh my gosh you got to go back and watch them exactly right extra scoot conversation for Thursday re when you're like breastfeeding and you know yeah I mean when I was breastfeeding May over her first few weeks I watched the whole of Game of Thrones that is such a weird thing to do when you've got like a two-day old baby an unoxetocin stimulating show Ella it's so unhinged but these are good like the OC is so good but my husband loves them obsessed okay so she's from the hills I think she was on the one before the hills as well. It's called like Laguna Beach. It was like, anyways, I loved

all that stuff. Right. She has a podcast, didn't know this, but it's called, let's be honest, and she had Miranda Kerr on it. Now, I haven't listened full disclosure to the whole episode. I have to say, I don't feel a burning desire to do it. But I always think it is so important to note that what we're talking about has been taken wildly out of context because it's a 30 second clip from a one hour interview. And we don't know what else she said. And I always think, that's so important because that's how we're consuming it and understanding it, but we're not understanding it because she might have said something, she might have said that she's Harry Bo every other day a minute later.

And I always think that's one of the issues on Instagram, isn't it? Anyway. Same as the Tim Specter quotes that got blown out of proportion and all those sorts of things. Yeah, so you don't know what's been said. People could take anything. Do you remember I said the other day, like, I let my girls have Coca-Cola? You could take that and make it look like all I feed my children is Coca-Cola, whereas actually they've had it once in their life.

That could get turned into a newspaper article very easily. That's what happens to my friend. I won't say that now, but I have a few friends. It happens to them all the time. Do you know what? Really deliberately, and I love the show because I feel like this is a bit private. But like I stopped sharing basically anything remotely interesting essentially online so many years ago because I just didn't want to be relevant.

I don't want to be relevant. I actually want to be really unrelevant. I just want to talk to a community of people who are genuinely interesting. because I don't want any part of that world. And it was so miserable. And there was a moment of like peak relevancy for me. And I remember I was traveling loads for work after like in the early days my books. The first book came out in like 35 languages.

And I was traveling so much to promote the book. And I remember the Daily Mail ran a headline about how it was like the world's worst dog owner because I kept leaving my puppy. I owned the dog with my husband who was at home with the dog and I was traveling for work. Anyway, I just remember things like that I'm being like, I just don't want any part in this. Anyways, this is not about me. But she was talking about her kind of health and wellness routines.

Should we just play the clip? Yeah, play the clip. Oh, I don't do eggs. Okay, so what's a breakfast for you? I do protein. So I eat meats like venison, bison, yeah. Lamb.

I eat all the meats that aren't mass produced. So you're not doing sushi? Oh, never. Never. Parasites. I know. I do love caviar. I know, me too

Kavios good, there's no parasites there No, there's no parasites It is good for you, isn't it? Yeah, it's good for you It's a good fat. Personally, no dairy, no wheat Will you eat sourdough? No. We do rice. Do you do any carbs? I really eat a lot of squash. Okay. And carrots and parsnips. I don't eat kale. You don't eat kale? Hey, we eat spinach?

Mm-mm. So you really, I mean, you are super healthy. Mm-hmm. Right. So when I first watched it the clip but had about 4 million plays on Instagram, I'm sure it's had loads on TikTok. But then, because people are doing all these like stitch up versions, the stitch up versions have also had many millions of views. Yeah, they've made them comical, some of them really laughing at it.

Because of course, what Miranda Kerr's describing as a classic summary of what she does. And of course, it lacks, she's not a nutrition professional or health professional. She's just saying what she thinks is healthy. And I think what's quite amusing is when the person interviewing her goes, wow, so you're so healthy. And she's like, yeah. That's the bit that's crazy. Because actually, she's just saying what she does, right? So she's not saying you should do it. She's saying what she does. And she basically says exactly that. She says, I don't eat kale and I don't eat spinach. And then Kirstid says, so you're really healthy. I know. And it's like, sorry, wait a second. Let's just backtrack.

Let's just understand. Sorry, so she's really healthy because she eats a lot of bice. and she doesn't eat any kale and spinach. Also, that's not healthy for so many people to consume that much red meat. But she was basically emphasizing in her own words that she lives a very low processed way of living. So foods that have gone for a minimal degree of alteration in a factory. And the reason in America, pesticide use is very different. And that's why I'm assuming she says that she eats lots of squashes and carrots, Ella. And she doesn't eat a lot of salad-like produce.

or cales or spinach because the amount of spray. Well, I'm not sure if that's why, or if it's like... Maybe oxalates, maybe she's concerned about oxalates. I mean, who knows what myth and misconception. There's nothing wrong with kale or spinach. They're really good for you. But it's so unrelatable to the general public that can't even get five a day to say,

I'd eat these very rare meats that literally probably have to... Oh, it breaks my heart, shoot in the forest, then bring it over to my plate in the morning, and then I'll just eat the squash that's grown in my garden. and carrots because there is season and then that's it. I mean, live from the land, but that is not something you want to be promoting on social media. It's everything wrong with what I eat in a day. No other carbohydrates.

Instead, it's the squash carrot and parsnets. And again, look, each other's own. And parasites. She said parasites. She said no sushi because of parasites. But caviar. Yeah. But then she eats fish eggs caviar.

It was a very bizarre conversation. And I think it really wraps the episode up quite nicely with what we talked about at the beginning, which is eat food, mostly plants, not too much, or words to that effect from Michael Pollan. Because it is exactly right. And we just get down, these clips go viral. And people suddenly think, okay, I can't eat rice, I can't eat bread, I can't eat squash, kale's really bad for me, can never have sushi again, I need to eat caviar instead and bison. And then shall I have loads of protein or no protein, am I meant to be on GLP-1s and be a double-zero or am I not meant to be? And it's just so overwhelming and confusing.

It's just another classic example of our fascination with women's diets and celebrity culture, because actually, once again, you don't see many male podcasts or male podcasters or celebrities being asked what they eat in the day unless they're an action hero movie. We're still at that typical stereotype of let's ask every woman. and what she eats so she can look the way she does. But, oh, let's just let the men talk about the work of the art that they produce. That's still very frustrating to me. Do you know what, Rhea, I see all the time on my Instagram feeder, like,

spend 24 hours eating like Kendall Jenner with me or spend 24 hours eating like Zendaya with me. I have never seen spend 24 hours eating like Tom Holland or spent 24 hours eating like Ryan Gosling. No, no. And in fact, the only ones I see were the classic Hugh Jackman for Wolverine. There's a lot of that that still circulates, you know, Marvel action hero type. Let's emulate your action hero. Because there seems to just be this emphasis on the female body being all about how you look. It's not that we can contribute in any other way to society, but body image. And that, I think, is what is the most immensely frustrating. No, and this constant conflation between aesthetics and how your body looks and health. And they are not the same thing. Within reason, they are not. the same thing. And I think that's probably a really nice way to end today's episode. The reason people end up eating so much protein, generally speaking, it's much less for health and it's much more

for a lean physique. You know, the reason we follow certain people's advice online is often because we just want to look like them. And ultimately, that doesn't necessarily equate to great health. No, exactly. So please do pop us in email and tune in on Thursday this week because we've got a really good show, Ella. We've got, can you eat your way to better skin? is Berberine really nature's a Zempic. I think that's something that's been doing the rounds over to probiotics and cholesterol. We even go into Marmite, Ella,

alongside the Mediterranean Principles. So tune in on Thursday. Yes, we have lots of recommendations, and we are going to unpick a little bit more from Banana Gake because we've had a couple more questions on that. Perfect. So thank you, everybody, once again, and we're not going anywhere.

We will be here with you this year and beyond. We love it. Thank you for listening. See you soon. Real Canadian Superstore has everything you need this back-to-school season. Save on lunchbox savers like Ziggy's sliced deli-meat products for always 375. And get Life Brand Pure Vita shampoo or conditioner for $8 each. At Real Canadian Superstore, when you're ready, we're ready, with a whole world and more.