The Wellness Scoop - Creating Healthy Relationships

Episode Date: February 23, 2021

Clinical psychologist and couples therapist, Michaela Thomas, talks to us about how to build a healthy relationship, why our relationship with ourself is the cornerstone of true connection and how to navigate the pressure for perfection. From embracing our vulnerability to asking for what we need, understanding the impact of technology and how to understand and then unpick the ways in which our upbringing shapes the way we form future connections.    Michaela Thomas - www.thethomasconnection.co.uk/thelastingconnection See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi and welcome to the Delicious Ways to Feel Better podcast by Deliciously Ella, hosted by me, Ella Mills, and my husband and business partner, Matthew Mills. Hi everyone. Our podcast is a weekly podcast focused on everything that matters to us at Deliciously Ella. We really believe that feeling good is a holistic 360 degree approach to our lifestyles and that wellness is about so much more than just what we eat or how we exercise. It's also our relationships both with ourselves

and with other people, our mindset, mindfulness, our sleep patterns, our stress levels and how we look after ourselves more generally on a day-to-day basis. On this podcast, we'll be breaking all these topics down, looking at everything that impacts our mental and our physical health and sharing small, simple changes that will hopefully inspire you to feel better. So this week, I've got something very exciting to say, which is that as of last Monday, so eight days ago, we reached 15 million listens, which is just an unbelievable milestone and something we're so, so grateful for. So just wanted to start today's episode with a massive thank you to everyone that's tuned in and that's downloaded it. And I so hope it has genuinely been really helpful in finding those

small everyday changes and has had that positive impact on your life. It's been an exciting week, actually, all round at Delicious Yellow, because yesterday, the 22nd of Feb, we launched our chocolate bars, which have been making me so happy. Yeah, it's been a long process getting these things right. We've been doing everything from trying to find the perfect bit of machinery to use in our factory. So we before Covid, we were able to go to this absolutely amazing manufacturer in northern Italy where we were able to source this great piece of equipment, where we really do believe that we're able to make the best vegan chocolate around and so it's been quite a long process it's a year of testing last year but we're really really happy. As Matt said it is I think genuinely the best vegan chocolate ever it's insane and I am

like a self-confessed genuine chocolate addict and I have tried every bar on the market but the first one has salted toasted hazelnuts, cashews and almonds on. And then the second one's a bit fruitier. So it's toasted almonds and hazelnuts with raspberries and black currants. And that fruitiness is absolutely delicious. So they're available now in Waitrose, in Whole Foods and our webshop, www.deliciouslyella.com. The box they come in in the webshop is also my favourite bit of branding we've ever done. So a bit nerdy that part but i'm so proud of it so i'm very excited to hear what anyone thinks if you do order it so all the chocolate talk um leads me on very nicely to the first of our three questions today and as always please do get in touch any questions podcast at delicious

liella.com so the first question and it is our most common question both across the podcast inbox and our social media inboxes and the hello inbox as well, is when are you launching internationally? There is a growing demand for America, Canada, Australia and many other countries. Yeah, so you're already able to buy our products in Europe. We've registered ourselves for VAT in six or seven different countries now. So lots of you will be able to get them there. And our US launches had to be postponed, one because of a baby, which was great. And then the second reason, because of the pandemic, which wasn't so great. So we definitely plan on launching our products in the US at some point, but we've just had to really focus on our UK business and getting our products into Europe

initially, but they definitely will be coming. But we are going to be making a much more concerted push on our app and we're going to be adding some localised features to it. So it's much more user friendly for our American users. And we're really, really excited about that. Yeah, we're going to have a translation of every recipe into cups, which I think is going to be the big thing. So I hope that's very helpful for any of our American listeners. Our second question, which I thought was lovely, is are there any habits that we've taken up during lockdown that you hope to continue? And I have to say one of mine really comes from this. A few weeks ago when we were speaking to our friend, the Buddhist monk, Gelong Thubten, about the best

ways and tools in which to get through kind of more challenging times that many of us are feeling at the moment is really just taking a moment every day or maybe even multiple times a day on more challenging days to just acknowledge or say out loud what you're feeling grateful for and that's a practice that we've been making a really concerted effort to do in the evenings and I was finding lockdown really quite challenging a couple of weeks ago and you kept pushing me to focus on that and I found it a really really invaluable exercise so I'd really like to keep doing that and as the girls get bigger we've been talking about being able to make that a part of our family dinner which I absolutely love the idea of and I think the second thing for me is I know we always talk about it and we're talking about it a lot in the episode with Dr Chatterjee but about

you know our wellness being about the small everyday things. And obviously between running the business and also having the girls, I've been really just trying to find 10, 15 minutes to exercise when I can. And it's not long, but it's really adding up to a big change and really enjoying actually doing that at home rather than feeling I need to go to a studio and using the classes on our app for that has just been great and allowed more of a kind of daily practice so I really think that will be a big part of what I do post lockdown as well. Yeah routine for me I had a really interesting day yesterday actually where yesterday was Sunday and I just had a really lazy day I didn't exercise I didn't eat quite as well. I had a long nap in the afternoon when the girls were asleep

and I had the worst night's sleep last night that I think I've had in months. And that was just because I've been so good at really trying to stick to a routine throughout lockdown. I find if I don't stick to a routine in lockdown, it's easy just to get into bad habits. So I've really been trying to focus on waking up early and exercising in the morning and eating well. And I felt the best I felt in a

long, long, long time because of it. And yesterday I just had one day where I slipped out of it and I slept so badly last night. And so it's just a really great reminder and great lesson of how important those little habits are and definitely something that I want to keep going in lockdown or not. Yeah me too and there's two questions we can roll up into one which lead us so beautifully into today's episode so it's how did we meet and then what is it like working as husband and wife? So we met I suppose in a very old-fashioned way which is that our parents introduced us and shortly after Ella's first book came out, I actually happened to be lying on the sofa reading the Sunday Times on my iPad. And I read this story about this amazing girl called Ella who had just published this incredibly

successful book. And I was working on a project at the time in a social enterprise in West Africa. And we were looking for a brand ambassador to help us the region had been very badly affected after Ebola and our projects were focused on food and I reached out to Sean Ella's dad to see if he put us in touch and we met and we had a couple of business meetings but I think it became very clear to us very quickly that this could be something more and we then went out on our first date and a week later we moved in together and it was kind of love at first sight really wasn't it yeah it really actually genuinely was which isn't a concept I'd ever kind of actually believed in before but it totally swayed my view of it and I think in terms of working together what helps us we're very very very different in that sense and we do very different things Matt's

the CEO so he's technically the boss, but he looks after all the team on a day-to-day basis, our supply chain, our finance, the kind of actual functioning of the business. And I'm much more involved in, I guess, everything that you see and feel and touch and eat. Most importantly, the recipes, the books, the content, the brand. I run all our social media channels. I do all the research for the podcast. And so that's much more what I do. But obviously, like everyone, it's all encompassing at the moment because we're not just working together. We're working together and living together all basically in one room at the moment. So today on the podcast, we're talking about relationships,

but we're going to be talking about them in a more holistic sense. So I'm hoping this episode is going to feel relevant to everyone, no matter what stage you're in, in a relationship or not in a relationship at the moment. Our guest today, Michaela Thomas, is a clinical psychologist and a couples therapist, and she very much believes that a positive relationship starts with our relationship with ourselves. So welcome, Michaela. Thank you so much for joining us. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's a real honour. So Michaela McCain so I know one of your big passions and I think I really like and I think it speaks to a lot of what we

talk about on Delicious Yellow and I think probably what we both agree with personally as well is that our relationship with ourselves is is really the kind of cornerstone as well of a positive relationship and I wondered if you could explain a little bit more about how you see that and why that is the case. I think that is crucial because if you don't have a good relationship with yourself, it can be really difficult to send that love outwards. If you don't have a sense of worth, if you don't think very highly of yourself, you're probably, well, first off, quite likely to enter relationships with people who don't treat you well. And that's going to be a boomerang effect of then making you think even worse about yourself because you've been treated

really badly. So that must mean that I'm not worth anything. So if we then have that sense of relationship with ourself, that I'm not worth any better, I don't deserve love, I don't deserve compassion, it's going to be really hard for you to ask for your needs to be met as well. And as someone who specializes in anxiety and perfectionism, I obviously see that quite a lot, especially women who are quite anxious about their own self-worth and don't actually give a message out to the world that I want something that is more sustainable. So that can be really difficult. You really do have to start with a relationship with yourself and developing a sense of compassion for yourself of what you need and what you deserve to thrive. Otherwise, you might find yourself staying in relationships

way longer than their best before date, where you're being, you know, maybe facilitating someone to treat you really badly. It can be really difficult to set an assertive boundary around that saying, I don't want this to happen anymore. So it's not when I meet someone and when I have this perfect relationship I'll be happy it's I need to be happy before I have any chance of creating the relationship that I want. I would even soften that word happy because there's a lot of pressure around happiness and you know almost that the pursuit of happiness can make us unhappy in itself because we think I need to feel always happy we're not really setting ourselves up for the the ups and downs that life actually brings us and I guess 2020 has really shown us

that that if you're always expecting to be happy in your relationship you might feel really disappointed and think there's something wrong with us there's something wrong with our love maybe we're not meant to be together maybe this is not going to work out. Whereas if you have more of a content relationship with yourself, that actually I'm content with who I am, it's a lot easier to find yourself forming a good connection with someone else, because that means you can ask for what you need. It means you can say, I don't like when you do this and set boundaries when they don't respect you or treat you well. So I think you're right that it's not about waiting to meet that special someone to then find yourself feeling happy it's a classic Jerry Maguire quote of you complete me that's

actually not really how it works you're not looking for someone else to be the missing part that fills you up so that you then are complete it's much more about you finding a sense of being content with who you are before you then meet someone. Michaela, circling back to what we were just talking about in terms of the relationship with yourself. And it's very interesting that you said that you see it more often with women, am I correct in saying them, with men to see a low self-esteem and a poor self-worth. And obviously, these are really complex topics, but it seems like they very often stem from the relationships that we have around us as children that form that kind of attachment style and that way of viewing relationships. How can we look to remedy that as adults and work on those attributes to create the view of ourselves that's probably more accurate than we're currently seeing it?

I guess it depends on the extent of it, how deep that has gone for you. If you've had nourishing relationships around you growing up, if you've had maybe a household atmosphere where love was modelled, where your parents were able to express emotion and show you what that looked like, where you maybe saw your parents negotiate, maybe even saw your parents argue and then, you know, make up and repair any problems, where you saw things like forgiveness being given, where you saw your parents perhaps work together well as a team, then you've grown up with a working model of relationships that is way healthier than someone who hasn't had all of

those things. That's not to say that if you've grown up in a difficult or even toxic environment that you don't have the capacity for love, because love and nurture is something that's programmed into most of us simply by being human. So we want to make sure we don't give that as a sense of hopelessness, that if you had a tough time in an early start in life that was not very compassionate or nurturing or loving, of course you can then go on to meet someone in your adult life and form a good bond and, you know, repair some of those ruptures. But it may be that you need to work that through with someone if you had a particularly difficult start in life. That's maybe not enough to just read self-help literature. It might be that you want to work with a therapist to help you understand some of the issues around abandonment, or maybe you've been treated badly,

or maybe you haven't had emotionally unavailable parents so you don't replicate any of these patterns in your adult relationship and that's not to say that the only way would be the way your parents treated you of course there's lots of different early life experiences like being treated badly in school or having had friends around you you know other adult caregivers who are around you like grandparents good teachers so all of these early patterns form you and shape the person you are today and give fuel for the fire in your current relationship and do they form the different attachment styles yeah so attachment styles are laid down very early so that that is when we're talking about primary caregivers so it could have been your parents or anyone else who was looking after you,

the more you felt that they were available for you, that you could kind of walk away from them, explore the world, and then come back to the warm arms when you returned, basically like a safe haven, then you would have felt that the world is safe, that I am safe, and that I can explore the world

and people would believe in me. But if you then otherwise had a working model where the world didn't feel safe, people weren't there to support you, and other people might be out to hurt you in any way, then obviously we can imagine that that could lead to things like suspicion in adult life or feeling anxious about being left when you come into an adult relationship. Maybe you're worried that your partner is not going to be faithful. Maybe you're worried that you're not good enough for your partner. Maybe they're going to fancy someone else. Maybe they were going to break up with you if you voice your opinion of what you need.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I can definitely relate to that. I still to this day have these moments where Matt would say, can we just talk about something? And my heart would stop. And I think he's going to say, let's get divorced, even though we're so happy. And actually he's saying like, oh sweetheart, when you go food shopping, can you get some more cashews? Yeah. But your mind is prepared for the worst, isn't it? Just jump into conclusion. Yeah. And it's so illogical. And I know that like we're genuinely, I'm not just saying this because we're on a public platform, like we couldn't be more happily married, but having had a, I guess, a more turbulent childhood and a less consistent relationship to look up to as a child it's just not my norm to to think in the way that Matt does and so Matt never even crosses his mind whereas yeah when he's like I'm Ella do you have two minutes I'm he literally wants to talk about like the gas bill like the most mundane thing on earth

or even be like oh you look nice but instead I'm like he obviously wants to get divorced I mean you've had a lot of dreams where you imagine that I've gone off somewhere or or done something or I've fallen out of love with you and it it has been an insecurity that you've really had to to work on and to to try and improve it yeah and you don't you don't have that no I was incredibly fortunate growing up I had my parents were had an absolutely amazing relationship and they were incredibly loving with each other they're incredibly loving with us they were incredibly present and they set an absolutely I think amazing example of what I could hope to have in my relationship and what they so showed me is the power of vulnerability, the power of genuine support, even when things go very, very wrong. And I think they show me as well that marriage is something that has to be.

It's an everyday thing. And all of the little things that you do in a marriage really, really add up. And if you are considerate and if you are kind and if when someone's being slightly irritating you don't egg them on further you stop at that point then these are all the things that keep the bind between you strong whereas if you start to chip away at each other and you chip away and you chip away that's the thing that really creates the big break in the end and I've just always been incredibly conscious of that and I've been incredibly fortunate in my life to have had to have had great relationships and obviously the best one with you but there's something there which I think is what I as far as I understand from Michaela from reading your book and listening to your work is that you you

know you're very passionate about the importance of compassion in relationships but there was something else that that really got me thinking here is and it was something you said at the beginning as well Michaela is I wondered whether you felt there was too much focus on perfection. And I guess that stems as well from our kind of online culture and being able to see snippets into other people's lives. But do you think that one of the challenges at the moment is this ideal of a perfect relationship? And obviously, as we know, perfect, it's not even a definable concept in anything in life, alone in a relationship but therefore we've got the grass is always greener concept going on because you see other people's relationships and you think oh mine's not perfect it's just happy well as you know from from the interview

you did with tom curran about perfectionism that this is something that is on the rise and that's really detrimental to relationships especially where there might be like in your case where you might have had very different backgrounds one of you having more of a stable secure background being provided the relationship skills I mean those things are basically things to bulletproof your relationship with where the other ones may be being on the lookout for danger and then your brain is going to jump to that conclusion when Matt is saying, oh, she would just have a chat about something. Ella's thinking, oh, goodness me, he's going to break up. And actually, that's where we bring compassion to that to soften and help soothe those moments to help make sure that the connection stays strong.

Because neither of you have chosen that. You know, Matt didn't choose that kind of secure upbringing any more than Ella did choose a kind of more turbulent upbringing that's neither of your faults so obviously I don't want to make this into a couple therapy session for you guys but this is something that I see a lot that you know these things are laid down so early for us we didn't choose this so when we bring compassion to these things it starts with a reality check of saying this was not my fault that doesn't mean we're not accountable for dealing with the the repercussions of it that actually I can be responsible for saying to my partner actually you know when you say those things I get really anxious and my mind jumps to the worst case

scenario I know that's not what you're asking for but I'll just do get that little gulp first and it's communicating that and saying that actually my brain works on the better safe than sorry like it does for all of us can really facilitate for better conversations going forward where we're like well actually that's not my fault and no wonder that I will be on the lookout for danger given everything that has shaped me thus far in my life and that to me is where we're starting with compassion absolutely and it goes it pinpoints back to what we were saying right at the beginning which is that it starts with you first which is is that each person, whether you're in a relationship or not in a relationship, identifying your attachment style and any insecurities that you may have is really important going into it. So you said then you can be vulnerable and you can communicate to your partner.

These are my insecurities. These are my shortcomings. And you can both be on the same page. And I think that seems something that's incredibly important and I definitely would say I have found that we have found that really important for our communication yeah because that means that you're laying the pieces of the puzzle that makes you so if you then meet another person or people we've been with previously before you met each other that those pieces of the puzzle might have fit differently and it's not

about finding someone that you're utterly compatible with to kind of come back to one of matt's previous questions it's not about finding someone is that you completely fit like hand in glove with it's more about how you deal with your incompatibilities that really matters so having different backgrounds means that you bring different fuel to the fire having compassion for that means that you can over bridge any gaps you have in between your different interests, your different personalities, your different life stories. All of that is overbridgeable, that we actually don't need to be fully compatible to have a lasting connection. It's more important how we deal with that incompatibility with compassion and

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And what are the main tools of that? Yeah, I mean, obviously, any relationship expert or couple therapist is always going to talk about communication. So I'm obviously going to mention that the talking about what's going on for each of you is really important. But what a lot of people miss is that they do communication in just a verbal way, we're just talking, and they miss out the nonverbal, that actually not checking in what's going on with within you you know if you've having that notion of you're all catching your breath when matt is suggesting talking about something that might mean that you need to soothe your nervous system before you can talk about it so you're going to get a better conversation so i think about compassionate communication as being one where you also tune into your body and not just your words you're checking in with what's going on for the other person what can you see in their posture

what can you see in their facial expression and also tuning in mindfully to your own inner world what am i feeling what am i thinking what urges am i having what's going on within me at the moment so mindfulness is a key element there being mindful of what your stuff is being mindful of your partner's stuff and then finding a way to communicate in between those and for anyone wrestling who I think a lot of relationships have gone through massive litmus tests through lockdown and some people moved in with each other very quickly through lockdown or they have only been able to see their partner or something they were dating very sporadically what what's the absolute telltale sign i know relationships oftentimes aren't something where it's oh 100 wrong it could be something where it might be just be not quite right and you you've got

questions what's typically the the thing that you really think says or if you were to advise someone that if a relationship isn't working actually you know what you should get out and this this isn't right because as you say with so much temptation of social media and lots of access to lots of people alongside that grass is greener approach compared to just working hard at it and you might just get through this little bump what do you think is the is the time when when it is right just to say this this is enough I think we have to really keep in mind that sometimes the most compassionate thing for each partner is actually to leave and obviously i really think about that carefully when i work with people in therapy because there might be dependents involved it

might be young children involved that will have an impact and sometimes will have more of an impact from the partners staying together than from them going separate ways and being able to co-parent in an amicable way. But I think it's really key there, the element of actually working on this. Do we feel like we've given this our best shot? Is this just a sign of what we're going through at the moment? Is this strain in our connection from the strain that's placed on us? So I would really urge anyone to look at your life stresses first. So is it situational or is it a general thing? Yeah, so is it situational? Because that means we can kind of ride through that. Is this just

a tough time because of the storms we're going through? You know, people will be made redundant, struggling with homeschooling. There's lots of things going on for people. You know, has that kind of exacerbated the rupture that was already there? Was that kind of cracks in the facade already there and this has just made it crack faster or is it just actually this is just hard right now if we have that reality check that anyone who's under strain you know each of you individually if you're stressed it has a you know greater likelihood to make your relationship stressed too there's a huge correlation between how well you feel in yourself and how well your relationship feels and vice versa. That when your relationship is distressed, you as an individual, each partner

is more likely to feel a risk of depression or anxiety as well. So we do really want to check in with that. Is just life hard at the moment or is it that we are not meant to be together? Because those two are not the same thing. If life is hard at the moment, we can work on that. If we're not meant to be together, and we've never worked together, and we've never had that foundation of friendship, like you mentioned, we don't even like each other and we never have.

Yeah, that's probably not a relationship that is worth building on. It's really interesting because I think, as you said, there's so many different components always to think about. But do you think there's too much shame in ending a relationship and calling time on things almost as though you failed and a fear of failure in that think there's too much shame in ending a relationship and calling time on things almost as though you failed and a fear of of failure in that and seeming like a failure when as you said

actually so often it is the healthier thing and I guess that possibly fits into the conversation where we're saying earlier where there's this possibly unrealistic sense of perfection that we're trying to achieve across all our lives, our relationship being one part of that. And we feel we're not going to reach that if we actually put our hands up and say, this isn't right. Yeah, I think there's a huge stigma around that. I think divorce is still seen as something like, oh, you didn't work hard at it. And I think we never know the behind the scenes there. We don't know all the things a couple has tried before they've decided to call it a day. We don't know by any relationship trauma must have happened to them, like if they experienced infidelity, baby loss, it could be, you know, illness within the couple's

relationship. There are lots of these strains that could have actually torn a big crack in between them and it just wasn't possible to repair it. I also have to advocate for the polar opposite, which is actually couples who are able to overcome obstacles that you wouldn't imagine they would. You know, I've worked with people who've had, you know, years of infidelities and affairs, and when we properly worked through it in therapy, found themselves closer together than they ever thought possible and closer together than they ever were long before the affair started. So that's not to say that we should forgive and forget because it's not how it works sometimes it's possible to forgive and move forward with compassion and forgiveness but sometimes it's just actually no I've been hurt too much this is not possible to

to move beyond and it's better that we we go separate ways and heal that way absolutely and I guess if you're if you're looking at a healthy relationship, what do you see as the key elements of a healthy relationship? I definitely think that's one where you are able to lean on each other. And I talked about this with a friend the other day about how the 50-50 split needs to work. That, you know, we're taking turns leaning on each other, taking turns getting but not 50 50 in kind of completely any given moment it might be that that's across longer periods of time so there might be a few months where one partner is supporting the other one a little bit more they're going through redundancy or whatever and then you know the next year might be the the other partner is going through a tough time with some health complaints so it's more about

you have a feeling that your relationship is about 50-50 across a longer period of time, so that you feel that you're getting as much support as you are giving. And that equal split is really important because it means that you feel that I'm worthwhile, I'm seen, I am appreciated. And I also think that you are worthwhile. I also see you and I appreciate you that might not be in every sort of given moment of every given day because that's not really realistic based on how life treats us and each partner might be having ebbs and flows in themselves as well on how they're feeling so that's where I think that it's almost like an equal split between how much frustration and irritation and difficulties we have to hold, maybe sometimes

even doing things we don't like doing for the sake of our partner, versus how much reward and meaning and vitality we get. Those two have to be quite in good balance for a healthy relationship. But it's really important to acknowledge that a healthy relationship is not a perfect one where we're always happy and we don't have disagreements we never argue and we're always on the same page that is not a healthy relationship in my books that one that never argues in my experience that's that's usually because one or both partners self-silence they don't say what they actually think and feel they might fold in any disagreement and they would sacrifice instead of going for a compromise when it comes to any dilemmas or decisions. So that's not, in my books, very healthy.

And what fuels that self-silencing and not speaking out? I know you said before that you feel like often there is a kind of, that women do that, again, more than men, and perhaps that sort of societal pressure is put on women to not necessarily speak up about their needs in the same way. Yeah, I definitely see a lot of people pleasing from women, but it does happen from men as well. So I don't have the actual sort of gender numbers of that from statistics, but it's something that I definitely see someone doing when they're worried. Like we mentioned before, maybe having an insecure attachment, maybe feeling quite anxious in their attachment. They might then feel

that they have to please the other partner or, you know, submit to their wishes, because otherwise, there might be a sense of threat, they might feel worried that they're going to be left, they're going to be criticised, or that their opinion would not be respected. So that could be real, based on how that relationship has been in the past. Or it could be based on previous relationships in the past. Or it can be imagined that we have such a fear of being criticized or disliked that we we take that out in advance so we might self silence or hold back or even sort of fear being vulnerable with another person because that might mean that I'm taking a risk here that you might not be there for me so kind of maybe fearing

opening up and sharing opinions sharing sharing preferences, and that can definitely creep all the way into the bedroom as well, where there might be feeling that I can't say to you what I like and dislike in the bedroom, because maybe you'll ridicule me, or maybe I won't be good enough for you. So that definitely does creep in that sense of self silencing. And the interesting thing is that we know that that is really detrimental to relationships. So the very thing you're trying to achieve by self-silencing and maybe pleasing your partner actually does not please the other partner at all, because they don't get to know you. They don't know what you want. That's really difficult for them to please you when you never

say what you want. So it's actually a lot harder than if you're a little bit more forthcoming. Even if 10-15% more than you currently do your partner would have more of a clue on how to make you happy and content you know vulnerability is such a massive topic and I appreciate that totally but how do you embrace your vulnerability I mean I think there's such a fear of being totally transparent and of instead being rejected and not being liked or being ridiculed and I think it's something so many of us not not just in relationships and romantic relationships but in friendships with our colleagues you know in being totally

honest it feels like something that lots of us can often struggle to do for fear of of standing out and putting yourself out there because if you put yourself out there you you do stand to risk something although of course you stand to gain a lot as well I was just going to say actually having this discussion and I was thinking about through relationships that I've had and the ones that I've had really great relationships and the ones that I haven't been happy in and almost invariably for me it's been ones where I felt I could be vulnerable with a person and if the person embraced my vulnerabilities then we've had great relationships and if that if I couldn't be vulnerable in front of that person then typically it's ended badly and it really does feel to me like that's the that's the divide of ones that have worked or haven't I totally agree in that

that's I mean having written a book called The Lasting Connection I had to think about what feeds connection and what erodes connection. And we know that vulnerability actually feeds connection. Because when you are vulnerable with someone, that means that you're sharing your inner world with them. And that means that they're able to share their inner world with you. And you can build joint experiences that way in a way that it's not possible when you're not letting your guard down, when you're not sharing things.

And I guess that authenticity or vulnerability we talk a lot about in the media today, that does come with fear for a lot of people. And I've just had to work through all of that by writing a book and putting that out there. It feels very vulnerable. I've put some of my personal stories in it from my own marriage. And that could be, like you're saying, open for ridicule. So we almost have to think about what's the risk and what's the reward. If I lower my guard, if I take off a little bit of my suit of armor that is there to protect me, you know, as long as I'm wearing my suit of armor, nobody can hurt me, no arrows can shoot me down. But what happens in a relationship is we're wearing a suit of armor like one of those medieval knights, it's pretty clunky, pretty heavy, and you don't get particularly close so that's one

of the things I often work with with couples where I help them to be more compassionate with themselves finding a safe way of peeling off some of the layers lowering the guard and seeing actually what will happen if you're with the right person who is secure and is able to be a safe space for you then actually that's going to mean a lot more meaningful conversations, a lot more enjoyable times together. There's so much joy that opens up when we're able to be vulnerable. And that's, I guess, coming back to how to be kind of vulnerable with each other requires trust. And trust means that I tolerate that there's no guarantee that you won't hurt me. If I had a guarantee that you wouldn't hurt me, I wouldn't need trust. So that's not the same thing. So I think trust and connection and vulnerability really link

all together. And the more vulnerable you are, we actually feel that the other person is more likable and I trust them more because there's no like and trust. If I know you, I get to figure out if I like you. And if I like you, I can figure out if I trust you. And are there any kind of practical tools or exercises that you use to embrace that vulnerability to kind of, I guess, allow you to take the deep breath and step forward and say, okay, this is who I am. And you said be authentic in that. When I work with people pleasing in relationships, I help people start really small, because this can be, as you can imagine, really anxiety provoking. Stepping out and saying, I want you to pleasure me this way in the bedroom is very, very difficult.

So you might start with like, oh, actually, do you mind if we watch this on TV instead of that? You know, we'd start with something that does not give us much of an emotional response or as much of embarrassment or doesn't trigger the same amount of shame. I would start with something small like that, like the person who would self-silence normally can then maybe choose which restaurant to go to or what to watch on TV and something like that we can get into daily practices. And when we've done that and seen that actually with these experiments, we see that nothing bad really happens. If you're with a person who is saying,

I'm willing to accept you as you are, obviously, I don't help people do these kind of practices. If I think that the other person is not in a safe bet, you know, if the other person is likely to ridicule, shame the person or any of those things that I don't recommend these kind of habits and practices, of course, this is where I think there's a strong enough connection and a safe space for the self silencing partner to start to step into their wishes a bit more, step into what they want and express themselves more. And knowing that the other partner is probably likely to meet their needs as much as they can, because that's something we all want to do. We are all programmed to try to nurture other people to be there for others. We do want that most partners feel a sense of

satisfaction when they're pleased their partner it's just kind of nice right I mean I'm sure you feel that for yourselves as well when you've done something nice cooked a nice meal for each other or you know given each other a nice massage or something it feels good to do good and that's the bit I help partners to facilitate a bit more which is really difficult to do when your partner doesn't say what they think is good yeah no absolutely it's so true it feels really nice when you feel you're able to support the other person and make their day just that little bit easier but again as you say it's a lot easier to do that if they say oh I really love it when you cook this or Matt literally made it so clear

at the beginning of lockdown he's like I just love it when you bring me a cup of coffee and I just know it's so small but just making him that second cup of coffee and I make coffee for us every morning and we drink it in bed and we just have quiet coffee together and I just know it's such a small thing takes me five minutes but I know it like changes his day and selfishly that makes me feel really good as well because it makes me feel like I'm doing a good job and and I love that it is amazing to me the power of little gestures. And so Ella, bless her, she literally brings me a coffee in bed every morning

and it is an utter highlight. And I just think there's something so amazing about waking up in the morning and having that coffee in bed. And each night I bring up tea for us both in bed. And so we swap them on that. And it is, it's just these little gestures that you do for

each other that I really do feel create they create the actual bond don't they rather than anything kind of massive and it just gestures it enables you the space to then have a really nice five or ten minute chat about what's happened in the day or what you're planning in the day or to talk about the girls and it just creates the moments to have the space to be able to have a further nice time as a result of it and the science again is on your side there it's it's the little things that count more towards connection than the really big grand gestures so keep those little things going and you know it's all tapping into our creativity as well of how can we find little ways in a way that doesn't overstretch ourselves in the current times because people are tired people

are fatigued and demotivated so I never try to get people to step into things that are not realistic to do for the long haul if you're thinking I'm going to sort of woo my partner now and rekindle that love by doing all these mad gestures you're never going to keep that up so I always encourage people to do little things and you said that's what the science supports are there any interesting studies there gosh there's so many things I've been reading in terms of research for my books but the person who's done the most research around what keeps couples together and kind of what looks at relationship satisfaction is definitely John Gottman and his love lab and he's looked at a lot of things that make couples facilitate for

a healthier relationship sort of the the make factors And he's looked at a lot of things that go into the break factors. And we know that when you collaborate, when you communicate, when you treat each other with respect, when you make joint decisions, all of those things make relationships work better. Whereas things like hostility, contempt, ridicule, those kind of things where you have conversations where you then roll your eyes those are the things that are more like corrosive to the relationship so we want to really make sure that we we're trying to reduce the negatives between us and increase the positives and that sounds really really simple but it's actually harder to do than that it sounds like not comparing yourself is absolutely critical as well because as as you say, every relationship is so different, both in terms of your nature and also your current situation.

Yeah. My mum used to say to me that she said it was the nine o'clock on a Sunday morning test and the four o'clock on a Wednesday test. And are they someone that you would want to wake up with and just hang out with on a Sunday morning and just have breakfast with and lie around with? And also, are they someone who if you were woken up in the middle of the week at four o'clock in the morning by a screaming baby are they someone that you'd want to be with in that moment as well and you feel like you would support each other and if those two things are right then you've probably got the right mix and I've always found that that was a that was a good acid test for me good wisdom from your from your parents definitely for sure yeah I totally agree M Michaela something there was a study that you

mentioned which I just thought was so interesting and I guess it begs the question of whether or not we focus sometimes on the wrong things and not necessarily kind of what truly matters at the core and it was the study on the size of a wedding ring and the cost of a wedding ring versus the actual satisfaction of the marriage I wondered if you could tell us a bit about that yeah I actually had to really cling on to that piece. It was the editors wanted to edit it out. And I was clinging on to this piece because I think it's so relevant for how we put so much pressure on our relationships to have it all, to be it all. You know, looking at the flashy wedding magazines and we even they're even called things like perfect wedding or a perfect day and I think that

beyond that one day lies the rest of your marriage together which needs to be good enough to make each of you feel fulfilled not perfect but good enough to make you feel like this is meaningful and what I kind of signed up for and this really interesting study was looking at that actually the bigger the rock on your ring you know the more money you spent on your diamond the less likely you were to have a satisfying relationship long term. So what is the direction of travel for relationships like how do you see marriage looking in 25 years time I know the divorce rates are increasing I always get so depressed when you walk into a restaurant you see a couple together and they're both on their phones instead of talking to each other and the amount of distractions that people have do you think that relationships will look very different in the future or do you think that the

conventional sense that we have if there is such a thing will continue I definitely see that digital distraction is a huge threat to relationship intimacy and obviously not just sexual intimacy but there's a joke that says that a lot of couples are kind of more intimate with their smartphones in bed than they are with their partner so So that's just a big no-go for us. We don't bring our phones into our bedroom whatsoever. It's not to say that I'm not digitally kind of distracted and don't do doom scrolling on Instagram. Of course I do. But it's about catching yourself when you do, because this is where society is moving. This is what's happening to all of us.

It's very powerful as a distraction. So rather than saying, oh, I shouldn't be doing any of it, catch yourself when you do and then choose wisely what's most important to me in this moment. Is it me being on the smartphone? Is that giving me more reward and meaning than it does to talk to my partner? And then choosing to park your phone in a different room. Because I do think you're right that there's there's a risk I mean maybe in a few years to come I don't know how quickly this is going to go but if we don't kick back against this there is a real risk that we get so absorbed by these quite quick reward things that we get from social media and we forget the longer slower burner

rewards we might have from being with another person that we love. So it's hard for me to predict where couples' relationships are going to go. And it's not always that we want to see divorce rates as something bad. Because like Ella said, some relationships really should have ended. And sometimes they haven't because of the stigma that's been going through older generations. And certainly for women where they might not have had the financial means to leave a relationship, they wouldn't have had the capacity to go with maybe them being single mother of young children. So actually, we know that financial independence can also lead to women voting with their feet in a relationship and leaving a bad one. So I think not want to

be dogmatic about divorce rates, but more think about actually how can we salvage relationships that weren't meant to go sour and actually could have been rewarding but we were too busy and too distracted to give it the attention it deserved yeah no I think that's that's such a good point I actually made a commitment about a month ago now to always leave my phone and my computer downstairs and I put them away when I'm finished with work in the evening and I don't look at them so this morning I didn't actually turn on my phone till 10 to 9 when I was starting work after breakfast with the girls and things and it was it's just been a game changer not just for our relationship but also in terms of actually relationship with myself for waking up and just

waking up and that tiny bit slower more of a relationship builder with my kids instead of looking at my phone screen which I think you know any parent can hold their hand up and just waking up that tiny bit slower, more of a relationship builder with my kids instead of looking at my phone screen, which I think, you know, any parent can hold their hand up and say we probably do too often. And just also waking up a bit slower, having a gentler start to the day, because you're not so distracted by 100 other things. And it's across the board, actually really been a game changer for me. And it's really difficult to resist that urge as well, that we want to kind of go kind to ourselves they're actually it's understandable if you've got big projects on network that you get drawn towards picking up the phone and checking that's you know it's just human nature but maybe it's talking together how can we have a plan around this and why would this be

important for us maybe it's what to do with what we want to teach our children if they see us constantly glued to our screens what does that teach them about connection but again not going dogmatic there's nothing more with being on your smartphone occasionally but just choosing when and where do I want to do it so having kind of like a guideline like you do there then don't turn it on until I've finished the the routines in the morning with the kids perhaps can be quite a nice thing and then having it parked in the box can be quite helpful you know I've even got a box where I've got a little hole for the charger cable so I can properly put it away put a lid on it and then think actually it's going to be there in the morning but it's much harder if you have to go in there and open the box and consciously take it out so I try to make these

things like almost like little hurdles to make it more difficult and that's where you have to just work with your own psychology this is just what the brain will do it will want those reward kicks it's not your fault yeah but what's going to be helpful rather than harmful for me to do right now to also protect my connection with my partner is probably to pop my phone occasionally absolutely oh well Michaela thank you so much for your time today I wondered if you could just leave us with one two three nuggets of wisdom if there were just a couple of things you wanted people to know about relationships, you know, with themselves, with their partners, about fostering connection. Well, one of the things I think is important to keep in mind is that if you're able to own your own difficulties, own your own shortcomings, and if you're able to tolerate and accept your partner's shortcomings you've got a pretty good start for building a lasting connection because that means you can take responsibility for

your own stuff through no fault of your own you've been shaped by this stuff and it also means that you're able to be accepting and compassionate towards your partner's stuff that they didn't choose any more than you chose your stuff and you're able to then not waste all your energy raging and being angry with each other pointing blame but instead just thinking what's going to be helpful rather than harmful for us to do right now how can we be sensitive to these things that we're going through but also still treat each other with respect and the last thing to think about is to have a little mantra for yourself of what's the intention here why are we doing this why are we choosing to work on

improving our relationship? Maybe we want a more meaningful love together or we want to show our kids what a loving relationship could look like. So setting a little intention for yourself, maybe a mantra like connection, not perfection can be quite a helpful one if you put a lot of pressure on yourself to have that social media highlight reel kind of love but instead it's what works for us if it's workable for us it's good enough for us it doesn't matter if we don't go on holiday abroad every year or we don't do romantic trips to Paris and these kind of connection things that some people might you might see them do if you go on slow walks and you feel content that is what matters not everything has to be broadcast on the 10 o'clock news for it to be a romantic thing it's what romance means to you

that really matters I love that Michaela thank you so so much and I'll put all Michaela's details in the show notes her book The Lasting Connections brilliant for anyone wanting to learn a little bit more and otherwise please do share this episode with anyone you think it'll be helpful for. And we'll be back again next Tuesday. Thank you so much, everyone. Have a lovely day. Bye. You're a podcast listener, and this is a podcast ad heard only in Canada. Reach great Canadian listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn ads. Email bob at libsyn.com to learn more. That's B-O-B at L-I-B-S-Y-N dot com.