The Wellness Scoop - Finding Work Life Balance

Episode Date: August 18, 2020

We spend about a third of our lives at work so finding joy, balance, purpose and structure is so important. Yet so many of us feel instead that our jobs are a daily grind that have a negative impact on our mental wellbeing, so today we’re asking Samantha Clarke how we can change that. From tips on working from home to the myth of the overnight success, finding inspiration, dealing with burn out, the over glamorisation of entrepreneurship and truly switching on and off at the start and the end of the day, we look at creating better relationships at work, reconciling work life balance and taking control of our everyday. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for Total Fund Savings Adventure, maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. investing. Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Deliciously Ella podcast with me, Ella Mills. So just a little reminder that this week we have free live workouts on our Instagram page every single day at 7.30 Monday to Friday and 8.30 on the weekend to celebrate all the amazing new content on our app so please come join us I have said I'm very very pregnant so we'll not be doing the more hip style stuff but we'll be doing the yoga which I'm very excited about so yeah 7.30 and you can find the full schedule on our Instagram page as well and it is is a month of big news, which is brilliant. I'm trying to get as much big news done in August so that I can start to slow down in

September when the baby comes. But we've got four amazing new products launching this month. We've got Dipped Almonds, which are actually a product we've been working on for like three years now, just trying to get them right for so many different reasons. But they're basically like really thinly dipped almonds so you still get that crunch and that delicious flavor of the almonds but then they've got this amazing layer of chocolate on the top and there's a salted chocolate version and a chocolate orange one and they're just so moorish and addictive Matt's having to ration me because we didn't have that many at home and we

needed to send them out to different buyers and yeah yeah, I'm addicted and obsessed. We've also for our cereal range wanted to do more of, I guess, a classic kind of everyday cereal. So we've done a multi-grain flake, which is super, super crunchy and delicious. And it's got hazelnuts, raisins and coconut chips in there as well. And it's amazing. And then a fruit and nut oat bar, which is so crunchy and chewy with like nice big chunks of nuts. And a sea salt, black pepper and olive oil cracker for our baked cracker range. So we've basically been working on these almonds for like three or four years, but the others over the last six months or so. So lockdown has been quite delicious in the Mills household. But yeah,

more details coming exactly where and when you can find them. They'll be going on our web shop, though, ASAP, www.deliciousiella.com and lots of other stockists. So yeah, I'll keep you guys updated, but very excited to have some really positive news to share today. And I guess testament to how much we love our work, which is exactly what we're talking about today. We spent a third of our lives on average at work, which totals just over three and a half thousand weeks of most people's lives, which is an absurd amount of time, really. But sadly, so many of us aren't actually that happy at work. And one poll I saw recently showed that British people think about quitting their jobs up to 16 times a year, which is a huge amount. So today, I really wanted to get into creating a positive relationship with our career because we do spend so much time at work and with our

colleagues. And so trying to find more joy, satisfaction and meaning in what we do and get out of that sense of a daily grind feels really important for creating a better positive relationship with our mental health in general. So we're asking today's guest, how do we find agency and autonomy in our careers and truly find that happiness in our every single day? Our guest is Samantha Clark, who is a happiness consultant. I'm pretty sure that's the best title I've ever heard for a job. And she's focused on exactly this. She's worked with all kinds of big companies from LVMH to the NHS, Nespresso, Innocent and Virgin, delivering masterclasses for places like The Guardian and Soho House. And she's just got a brilliant, pragmatic approach on what we can change today.

So I hope it's going to be really, really helpful again, because all these things make up such a big part of our health because mental health is so important and where we spend our time and who we spend our time with directly impacts that. So I'd love to start with, I guess, the most basic question of all is why do we need to enjoy work? And I know that sounds so mad because obviously we spend so much time at our work and with our colleagues and that obviously impacts our happiness. But what is it do you feel like is the fundamental thing when you think about your job that you want to address for people? Yeah, so we do spend a lot of time at work. And I think for us to really be in a place where we're feeling like, what am I actually contributing to this place that I'm entering into day in, day out? How is it helping me as an individual as well the friends that I'm connecting

with the co-workers that I'm also helping to elevate and you know am I making that worthwhile contribution and I think when we think about work it's a holistic understanding of who you are who you want to become the place that you're working in is it shaping you for the better or worse and you know what else is it giving you by way of friendships connections and that community development and I think if we're missing that on a day-to-day it can be feel like such a slog and it does feel like a bit of a privilege to say yes I want to be happy in my work but I think it's just a deep understanding of if I'm going to show up somewhere, whether it's behind my laptop working from home or I'm going into a company, I want to

feel like I'm adding value. And that's what I help people do is to find work that really helps them feel meaningful, purposeful, and that they are working towards their own version of fulfilling their purpose. I absolutely love that. And one of the things that I really like about your approach and everything I've heard from you is you're incredibly pragmatic and practical, which I definitely really appreciate. And I know running our own business, there can be a grass is greener, like don't get me wrong. I feel so privileged and incredibly lucky to do something that I love and to work in an industry that I love and that I feel passion and excitement for. But that doesn't

mean that you enjoy every single day and that you don't have a huge amount of stress and worry. And obviously also having your own business requires a kind of always on attitude, which is quite different. And I'd like to just start with that grass is greener requires a kind of always on attitude, which is quite different. And I'd like to just start with that grass is greener and the kind of idealism versus creating a genuinely happy every day and how you kind of approach that. Because I think sometimes it's almost like, oh, if we don't enjoy it, we should quit. And that's not necessarily the answer or your approach. Yeah, totally. I think you've hit the nail on the head. I really do try to be practical and pragmatic because, you know, in life, I think happiness is also being able to have the strength to ride the waves of when things aren't working. And it's a false sense of security to think that we need to fungineer our work environment as

Oliver Berkman talks about you know I think we should really be able to navigate stress and look at what isn't working and how do we start to unpick that versus just throw it away we could be in you know it says a lot about our culture at the moment in that we can just cancel something or throw it away or disregard it and I really want people to sit with themselves and to reflect and sit with intention about how am I working and what is actually causing that niggling anxiety is it the people that I'm working with is it that I haven't really understood the relationships around me and and also my triggers or is it more a case of actually the job role itself doesn't play to my strengths or perhaps there's an area that I would like to upskill and learn more about or maybe you've just

grown a little bit tired of the industry itself and there is some deeper searching there to figure out you know where do I want to make a better contribution or like you know I was in advertising and branding and I just felt that there were parts of me that wanted to work with people on a deeper relationship. I wanted to work with products that I cared about even more. So by allowing yourself that space to really sit with what's coming up, then we can start to walk towards happiness versus just papering over the cracks or running away from stuff because it will always follow you. You are the constant in every situation, in all your relationships. And unless you take the time to sit with yourself and unpick that and do the reflection work and be comfortable with what comes up in the silence, you're never going to be truly happy. So with your love it or leave it kind of

masterclass as an approach, you know, I'm sure most people have felt or possibly are currently feeling some discontent to some extent in their work. And we know that that's common. You know, where do you recommend you start? What are the first questions to ask yourself? So I get everybody doing first and foremost, a sweet spot exercise because I think it's important to look at four key areas in your life and to see how work is really impacting that so we look at yourself so I'm asking people some really interesting questions around you know what how are they looking after themselves are you nurturing yourself are you really taking the time to to play and discover how your body and your spirit is feeling?

I then get them to look at their relationships. Which relationships are they perhaps neglected in their lives? Do they have the support system that they require? And also looking at work itself. You know, what are the wider goals and the visions that you had for work? And where do you feel you're slightly coming up short? And the last one is your home life because I think if you have all of these different areas and have a critical understanding of what's

going on with all of them when you think about your home life your home is that place where you can have peace and serenity and if that isn't helping you to be successful in work or you're not feeling refreshed as you go into your working day, then something's a little bit off. And so by understanding what's going on in each of these four areas, we can then start to dissect work and think, okay, if I'm solid elsewhere in terms of myself and my relationships and my home life with work, where is the pain? Is it to do with people? Is it to do with the job role? Is it to do with the job role is it to do with the industry is it more about me not feeling authentic in the space either so I'm not able to talk about what I do with confidence or I don't want to or perhaps I don't feel valued by way of money or

respect and so I get people to really unpick and think, where is the pain? And doing these entry level kind of reflections and exercises, people start to realize, oh, do you know what? My job's pretty cool, but maybe I need to have a few more out of work indulgences, or maybe I need to start to think about work as a portfolio of things that I'm doing. So there is the main job that I go to, and maybe I'm doing some other things like I want to volunteer or I want to pick up a new hobby. Or for some people, they might think, actually, do you know what? The actual role itself is really getting me down. And maybe I'd like a sideways move in the industry I'm in, or perhaps I'd love to just jump ship entirely and move into a completely different sector, completely different role and

start afresh. But you won't really know where you're going. I think a lot of people do a very scattergun approach, like, oh, I'm fed up, I'm just going to leave, I'm going to apply for lots of different things. And you end up jumping from one fire into another. So having that critical awareness of, you know, each of these, what I call our happiness pillars there are six of them really underpinning you know what's working in each of those areas and what am I comfortable being okay with because I think you know we have to be honest that as you've mentioned before work can't be everything just like your partner your husband your wife cannot be your everything there are ways in which that relationship is so fulfilling and nurturing but you also have friends that fulfill another part of your relationships. And so

there is that rich understanding, okay, if work gives me 80% of everything I'm needing, there are some other boxes I could tick elsewhere through volunteering hobbies, or maybe starting a side business. Yeah, absolutely. I love the holistic approach you bring because I think it's so incredibly important and I'm a massive advocate for it across everything that we do in our lives. I think that it's so easy to segregate stuff and have, as you said, a big focus. Okay, work's not making me happy. I'm going to quit and I'm going to do the next thing. And ultimately, if you're not addressing the other things in your life, which possibly are making you unhappy and dragging you down, then that's not necessarily going to be the answer. And I think I was going to touch on this later, but

you've brought it up. So it seems like a good time to touch on it is obviously work-life balance is we hear all the time. And it's definitely a question I get a lot from people about creating that work-life balance. And as you said, you know, with everything in life, you can't get everything from one person or one thing. And how do you approach your work-life balance? I mean, I've definitely found, and I've sensed that lots of people have, that the last few months have really thrown that quite a lot as well, because of working from home, it's been much harder to have like clear boundaries and stopping points and times to turn your computer on or off. And do you know what, the word balance always just jars me a little bit, because I feel like it means that we're constantly in this place of weird flux. And when we think about David White, he's a poet and he talks about how we need to

constantly be in conversation with different areas of our lives. And I know that, you know, the last couple of months have been massively disruptive for people. I mean, I don't personally have kids, but I know that, you know, suddenly you had your set routines with your children and your partner, and then suddenly everything is thrown into chaos and you're trying to balance, you know, business building with, you know, somebody might be working in a business quite senior up, and then you've got to switch roles and switch hats all the time. And I think it's about how do we go back to creating some sort of harmony and also being present with what's happening right now. And I really hope that people can

kind of take a step back and think, okay, if there are times where I need to be a little bit busy, can I embrace that and lean into it? And then there are other times where actually I need to be stricter with myself and a bit more disciplined with how I'm going to be working throughout the day. So I know for me to avoid the overwhelm and to avoid that feeling of burning out, I'm very particular about how I wind up into my day and how I wind down. And I think that taking that time to just be present in the morning with, okay, what is today going to look like? What energy do I want to kind of have at this point in the day? And how can I really make sure that I ring fence this type of work? And then in the afternoon, I'm going to switch off or I'm going to do what I need to do here. And if I want to work a couple of hours in the evening, how could I take maybe the morning off tomorrow? And getting a bit stricter with my

routine that way, because it can be very difficult to just say, actually, I'm just going to do one more email, I'm going to send off one more proposal. And that impacts on your relationships, it impacts on your children, probably not seeing you often enough. So we need to get stricter with ourselves and draw some clear lines. And also, I guess the work that I do with companies is getting them to think about, from a culture perspective, how do we create the environment where we're allowing people to feel it's okay to work to your biorhythms or to not feel like we're checking or being on top of you every five minutes. So I think it's a two-way thing. I think individuals need to be very clear about their boundaries and to think about what's important and how they will shape shift between the different roles that they need to play throughout the day and also how they

want to start and end their day. And I think companies also need to play their part as well in terms of really redefining what culture and working patterns look like now we are going to be part remote part in the office yeah absolutely I definitely used to have I couldn't switch off for the end of the day until I'd emptied my inbox and then every single time I emptied my inbox 700 new emails came in and it was just it was so so pointless. And it was, it honestly wasn't until recently. And I used to do it with our Instagram direct message inbox as well, which is literally like thousands a day. And it wasn't until after I had my daughter, you know, she was like, I don't know, six weeks old and you're in that kind of crazy, like never sleeping,

everything's upside down phase. And I was still trying to reply to every single person. And I felt that I couldn't be calm because I hadn't finished until I did that. And I realized that you're setting yourself up for the impossible because it's a never ending cycle. Like your work will never be done because there's something else to do. And creating that ability to stop is so important. I was very interested in, and I think it's something that we probably all benefit from. I definitely feel I would benefit from having that kind of, I guess, start and end sort of routine and a way of bookmarking. And I wondered if you'd share what, what it is that you do and find helpful. For me, I really think that how you, you launch into the

day, I think a lot of people kind of get in to the day and some people are great checking their email straight away and then they feel I'm on top of the day before it's even started. But we have to remember we're not machines. And even your phone, your laptop, everything needs recharging and winding down and it will let you know when it's run out of battery completely. And so we have to really think about what is the energy I want to bring into my day. So for me, it is a mixture of things. So I'll, you know, start in the morning. I'm very sensory, so I need different fragrances in the morning. I'll put on my diffuser and that kind of really helps me start into my day. There'll be my gratitude sessions that I do. I have different guided meditations that I listen to. So that spans from anything from Jodie Spencer to

Lauren Ash to Mujai and listen to on Insight Timer. I'll then take some time to read. I think because of the work that I do, I really like to stay on top of what I'm learning in the coaching realm or in happiness and the different principles there psychology and so I try to spend at least 30 to 40 minutes reading even if it's just a chapter and then I will do a bit of movement at the moment that's a bit hampered because I've hurt my shoulder so I'm not really doing as much either yoga or Pilates in the morning, but just something or a bit of rowing. And then I'll choose like, what is today going to be? I have like a compass. And I choose, is today going to be about knowledge seeking? Is today going to be more about finding my joy and my bliss? Is it going to be about self-leadership today and really honing something personally for myself? Or am I going to be a bit brave today? So I try not to look at my phone first thing, because that's a rabbit hole that never ends. And I'm just not that productive. So I will try and do everything that, you know, for me is about creating for myself before I start consuming

anybody else's energy or time or agenda. And then I get into what it is that I'm doing. I appreciate that that all sounds great because also I don't have kids. So I know that that is probably quite a long routine, but I think there are choiceful elements that perhaps people could just think, could I have some time in the morning to sit with myself and create something for me, whether that is voice noting. it's another thing that I love if I if I haven't done any movement maybe I'll voice know just walking and in the evening I like to take a moment to kind of review what I've done in the day and write down the kind of next top three things I love my Michael Hyatt planner and for me it's it's like a sensory thing again. So there's a clear

line in the evening where there's a different selection of fragrances that go into my evening wind down routine. So it's a lot more kind of sandalwoods and vetiver and stuff like that. And then music and food and preparing for bed, really. What I absolutely love about what you've said, and of course, as you said, it's different for everyone, depending on, you know, what's currently possible, you know, especially if you've got kids, you're homeschooling, things like that. And I so appreciate that. But what I love about the sentiment that you've just shared is that you are taking such control, you are taking such such autonomy and you are pushing yourself but in

a very as you said we're not machines we shouldn't see ourselves machines you're pushing yourself in a very inspired way to be learning more to to kind of get the best from the day and be your most productive and I think we can autopilot so easily from one day to the next. And actually, I think for lots of us, maybe working from home has slightly intensified that because you've got to kind of push yourself a bit more and take a bit more personal responsibility for finding that oomph every day. But I absolutely love how everything you're talking there really alludes to a kind of change in mindset to create that opportunity and create that abundance and push yourself forward. And this is obviously in

our work because that's where most of us spend five days a week, which is a huge amount of time, but in everything in life, like not letting life just happen to you, but kind of taking some semblance of kind of control and what your day is going to be. Of course, you don't know what's going to happen at work or what your boss is going to say or, you know, what events might arise, but you can control the feeling you have as you go into it. A hundred percent. You know, I love what you said there about that sense of agency. And I think, you know, writing the book, I was really almost quite militant about it. I want people to really believe that and take action with their lives. We only get one life. And, you know, this past couple of months have shown us how illness and the different kinds of regimes that we're trying to break down and change.

Everyone has a sense of agency. And I think we've just forgotten that either we've gone into a routine or we become very set to a certain way of like, oh, well, this is how it is, you know, works pretty grim. And who am I to try and change things? Or actually, I don't have the money to make the changes that I want. And we can just slip into this, this mindset of it's not possible. And we really have to think, okay, there are realms of things that we can't change. You know, fair enough, nobody was coming into this year thinking that we'd be in the middle of a pandemic or that certain governmental changes are happening in

different ways. There are things that we have some control of, but not a lot. So what can we really distill and make an effort to control? And that is us. What is going to be our internal anchor, our internal guidance system that is going to control our day? And if we allow things to happen to us and to push us from pillar to post every day, it's no wonder we end up exhausted, burnt out and stressed. We have to think, I need to be stronger, leaning into this headwind of life. And, you know, steering my ship

in the direction that I want to and knowing that there are some things you're going to come up with that you can't control, but what's going to be your reaction to that? What is your emotion around that? What's your mindset? And just setting yourself up every day and thinking what can I do for me to make sure that you know if the project doesn't go the way that I wanted it at work or you know suddenly I've finding out that my whole department's being made redundant how can I put myself in a good place mentally emotionally spiritually to know okay right I've got this it might not be how I planned it, but I have the tools to walk towards what I want, or I have a support system around me that

will help me and that we're not just going to crumble. And I think for me, a lot of this stems from definitely having a chronic illness. So with my sickle cell, I've always had to think about what I can do to make sure that I stay well and that I can continue with the work that I want to do. And when I eat well and I look after myself, my body shows me gratitude and I'm not in pain. So I feel like we all can play a role in developing our own agency because we reap the benefits when we do. Yeah, absolutely. And I love as well exactly that. And you talk a lot about kind of, you can't cut corners.

You know, sometimes you've got to put in the tough times to get where you want. And I think finding enjoyment and satisfaction at work isn't about turning everything into like a fairy rainbow day where everything's easy and everything's magic and everything's positive. You know, you're going to have difficult times in order to succeed in the end.

And actually the overnight success is a complete myth, which I fundamentally think we need to talk about so much more. It's a complete myth. You know, I know when I started Delicious Yellow, people always looked at it as an overnight success. But I think my mum was the only person that read the blog for a very, very time and you know you had like four people in our first cooking classes and you know everything takes time but one thing I wanted to ask you about is I guess exactly that how do you know change and create that balance between the tough times and and putting in the hours to get to where you want in the career that you'd like

to have and getting stuck and feeling that kind of energy really drain. And then in that kind of creating, you know, because I think so often people's kind of stickiness at work is often with colleagues or bosses or people they're surrounded by, obviously who we're surrounded by has such a huge impact on our mental health. And whilst, you know, we can have some say in that outside of work, inside work, that can be obviously really challenging. You know, that's again, one of those things she says out of your control. How do you start to kind of look at those factors and create that positive day to day? So, okay, maybe if I start with your first question about the work, and I think it's important to really understand where you are in terms of your

career. Like, are you in a job, a calling or, you know, a career? And I think that it's okay also to say, actually, this is just a job right now. This is probably what I need to fund my further education or to fund this other business I'm building on the side and to make peace with the fact that it might not tick all of the visionary value perspectives, but actually it's a good bread and butter opportunity. I like the people I work with and it's fueling me to get to the next stage. Am I in a career where actually I am very keen to climb the ladder and to get to my boss's office, you know, and I am going to put in the hours and I'm going to talk about my success and I'm going to build my achievement diary and I'm going to put in the hours because I know that that's what

it takes to succeed, to get to the next level, to get to VP, to get to CEO. And I'm reading the books and I'm doing whatever it takes. And then there is the calling where there is this thing inside of you where you're like, I have to do this work. And I knew from when I was working back in agency days that my calling wasn't to be an account manager. I definitely had an innate love of just helping people transform and being a great listener. I think Samantha generally in Hebrew means great listener. And I knew that I wanted to help people and support them to be better. I just couldn't figure out what it was. And I definitely went on that journey of discovery and still, you know, I deviated through making shoes and personal styling and branding until I get to this point where I'm coaching people. And then suddenly my hearts are flutter and I'm like, God, I love this. I need to figure out how to do more of this.

And suddenly when you're in that place where you have a calling or you're finding something and you get fixated on this thing and I need to figure out how to make it work you will be putting in the long dark nights and the long hours and making it work and like you I think I had my friends listening uh you know to or reading my first blog articles, or practicing my coaching sessions with me, because they believed, because I had the power, and I had that supercharged energy about me to take me through working till maybe 1am, 3am, creating websites, you know, building out my own WordPress or whatever. And that carried me through. And I think if you are embarking on something new, and it has to be that candle inside you that you will continue to safeguard and not put out, even when everything

is against you, even when you're not making money straight away, or you haven't found the audience yet. It's that consistency of purpose that rolls on continuously to create the magic. And I think we've been blindsided by a lot of things on Instagram, people blowing up, oh my God, I got 10 million first round, da da da. You know, it doesn't happen like that. And I think when we can get this kind of inflated overnight success, it can also disappear very quickly. Whereas I think there was something about that consistency, that excellence showing up every day because you believe and the right audience will then gravitate towards you because they see they see that you love this heart and soul and are doing it day by day and want that longevity. That's what I advise, you know, my clients. I'm like, is this the kind of thing that you want to be working on at 3 a.m. in the morning?

You know, if nobody's bought from you, are you still happy to kind of keep going? And then if it is, and you know, keep keep on it, it will develop. And a lot of people who have built successful businesses or successful careers, they know that it doesn't happen without the work and the tenacity and the drive. But when we get knocked at work by circumstances, people, situations, I always say that we have to really take, again, a look at ourselves inwards, but also just think about how we're surveying the landscape. So whether you're building something for yourself, or you're working in an office, we aren't operating in a vacuum. And there are different types of characters that will meet on our journeys. And it's up to you to understand how are you

navigating those relationships? What are you learning? I think every relationship is a chance for you to go on an adventure with somebody and to discover, you know, what are their attributes? How are they showing up? How do I feel when they talk to me? What am I saying in return? And in the book, I talk about the four different character types. So there's like the commander, who's very quite self-assured, very direct, quite authoritarian, might like a certain way of working with numbers and figures and is driven by results. And then there is somebody who is a bit more of a navigator, who really loves the people and the personable interactions and likes to build community, probably a bit more extroverted. And then you've got the pacifier. This is somebody

who really likes to create peace and stability and wants everyone to be on the same table. And then the cautious type, somebody who's a bit more meticulous, likes to get their head down. So you, first of all, identify, where do you sit in all of that? Like, what's your characteristic trait? And it's obvious that a commander type and somebody who is possibly a pacifier

are going to butt heads at some point because the commander will want to get on, will want to be on, will want to be driven towards doing something. Sometimes there is quite a solo attitude and the pacifier is probably like, well, let's just discuss how we'll start on this project. Let's think about how we'll move. What's the consensus for how we should move forward? And so when you realize that there are different types and different traits of personalities, you start to unpick and think, oh, that is probably why I'm butting heads with this person.

Or actually, my tone and my manner can be quite abrupt. Have I actually thought about, you know, how I communicate differently or what I can learn about the tone that I might need to use with somebody else who doesn't interpret my messaging in the same way. It's again, it's that journey of discovery between the two of you, between your team, between your manager, that you can start to unravel and unpick. Don't get me wrong, there are some incredibly toxic characters. There can be some quite narcissistic people in our workplaces. And this is if some relationships are causing you deep stress deep sickness then yes you've got to leave because it's not you know that some things can't be repaired and as much as you try that can also weaken you but I do think that starting that

initial discovery of the people that you work with the ecosystem that you're in and the role that you play in that ecosystem and what you can do to navigate your behavior is key so it's a very long answer there it was absolutely amazing being engrossed in the whole thing I think my biggest takeaway from everything you're saying is actually a really important to say that agency we talked about earlier but but b is the second part is also bringing actually a lot more kind of consciousness and mindfulness almost to our work and just being more aware of all the different character types and what stage of your career is isn't it as you said is it a job is it a calling and and I really like the ways you said you're just bringing a lot more

thoughtfulness to it and I guess just in doing that as an element of stopping it becoming a kind of daily grind and I have to say I just couldn't echo what you said more about if you do feel like you've got a calling my recommendation would be never to even think about starting a business if you didn't think it was your calling because there is so much glamorization of entrepreneurship and kind of hashtag girl boss and female entrepreneurs. And that's fantastic. And no part of me wants to kind of diminish hopes and dreams and ambition because all of those are brilliant attributes. But it is so hard. And I wouldn't change it for the world, but it has been so hard. And we, I've never ridden more ups and downs in my life, moments of thinking you're going under and this and that. And it's all consuming and you will never think about work ever again, whether that's your wedding day or Christmas day or the day that your child's born, you will still be thinking about work. You can't turn it off. And, you know,

I think it's really important to kind of be fully aware of that and signed up for that. And I think, yeah, sometimes the glamorization worries me a little bit. Because also as well, it's that default that if you're leaving your job, you're going to start a business. And not everybody is meant for entrepreneurship. Like I think, you know, there's this whole thing that, okay, if you've been in a job and it everybody is meant for entrepreneurship like I think you know there's this whole thing that okay if you've been in a job and it's not right for you then the next thing is to start your own business and it's all going to be happy days from there that you know it completely dismisses the fact that maybe you want to be entrepreneurial but in the safety of a company ecosystem and you want to hack the way that you work on a product or work cross-functionally

with different departments. Entrepreneurship is, it really does shape you as an individual. It's like a personal growth journey as well. Much like when you get into a relationship with your partner, you know, a lot comes up there because you're suddenly mirrors for each other. And the things that you used to do quite happily as a single person suddenly is magnified intensively with this other person who's just like why are you doing that that's really irritating and it's the same with a business you know you get into it and you suddenly learn oh actually I'm not as disciplined as I thought and my business requires that or suddenly you've got to have a head for figures and that wasn't your thing and and maybe you didn't want to be in the

limelight but actually to sell your products you've got to be out there so it is such a enriching journey and I love it for that but I also think that it's not for the faint-hearted and it is something that continuously I'm growing and learning about myself and as I build my team and I'm learning about myself as a manager now differently versus you know it used to be me and I just action things quickly and I was talking to somebody the other day about you know the the maturity levels or the cycles that you go through as an entrepreneur and then stepping into like the CEO of your business and what that means for you and where you need to also embrace letting go so in the

beginning where it's all you doing everything and controlling and then suddenly you've got systems in place and you have to let people fly with your vision so it's a really magical journey and like yourself I want you to get off a few times off the carpet but then suddenly you come back and you just think this is why I do it. Or you get somebody the other day just sent me a message and said, I read your book and I put some things into practice and I've got a new job and I'm getting paid more. That's crazy. And that's the kind of stuff that I just live for, like the results. Yeah. And that's why it's appalling, isn't it? As you said, because it's a passion there that brings you back, that makes you want to do more, even when it's hard.

Yes, for sure. So one thing I was going to ask, because you said there about a head for figures, and it sparked something in me because I do not have a head for figures. And in that sense, I am very lucky to work with my partner because he does have a head for figures and it works well between us but one thing I definitely learned really quickly but found really hard to learn was the importance of embracing our weaknesses and of taking some time to realize what am I good at and what can I bring to the people that I work with and to the projects that we're working on and where actually should I really step back and acknowledge that actually I'm never gonna massively succeed in this area because it's just not either where any interest lies or where any kind of natural strength lies and actually being

okay with the fact that you're not going to be good at everything, which seems so stupid to say, because of course, you're not going to be good at everything. No one is brilliant at absolutely everything in life. That's impossible. And most of us tend to lean towards one thing or another. But I wondered, I've certainly found in my career, acknowledging and embracing weakness has actually really taught me a lot and allowed me to succeed more. A hundred percent. In the beginning, I think there's this, you try and do everything because it might just be you building it out. And suddenly you realize that there are strengths that you think you have, but actually it's taking you two hours longer to do something.

And is this really the best use of your time? You know, the more that we read about the difference between a $10 task and a $10,000 task, especially when you're running a business, you've got to say to yourself, if my best energy is spent working on a proposal or coming up with the creative ideas for the products and actually the marketing or figuring out the the financial management accounts isn't my thing I need to find partnership and I need to collaborate with people that are going to help me go further you know they always say if you want to go far you go alone if you want to go far, you go alone. If you want to go further, you go together. And I do see the magic in working with people who have different skills to me and who have enabled me to get out of my own way. Because sometimes the resistance builds up, especially if it's an area that you're not confident in and you think, actually, I'm still going to tackle it

anyway because I'd rather get on with it. And just realize that you put it off you procrastinate and it doesn't get done so I'd rather somebody you know who's starting out just think actually in the book as well we do a deep dive into your strengths into your skills your passions and your values and really articulating your love it leave it toolkit is core to you identifying, okay, if I'm a great relationship builder or I'm a great logistical thinker, these are some of my gaps. Who do I know in my network who might be able to help me? Or where could I partner and maybe skill swap or share with somebody if I'm just starting out? Or can I start putting some money towards getting a VA to help me be a bit more organized?

Or somebody who does social media or to bring on an accountant earlier. And I think having that awareness earlier on will help you shortcut any mistakes and differences. And this is often the thing that I see with a lot of creative people who are so visionary, but don't really get to grips with or don't really want to, or don't have the heads for the strategic side of business building. And so it's important. And you see that in fashion, there are so many fashion pairings, where, you know, Mark Jacobs is the creative, and then he has a business partner who does that kind of stuff. So I think it's important to look at what you need and how to collaborate and find it that's exactly how we've done delicious the Ella is Matt is a head for

strategy and finance and business and all things practical and I am the polar opposite and I there's no way we would have done what we've done without each other it's like a yin to a yang it's been so important yeah there's a great book that really changed my opinion on a few things called rocket fuel i think it is and it talks about the difference between you know the ceo and the integrator and like the visionary in the business versus the person who has to help integrate, build the systems, do the operational and strategic stuff. And where businesses fail when there's either two visionary people leading the way or two integrators. And actually, you do need that complete connection between somebody who has the vision, but then somebody who helps to execute the vision. One question that I had for you was obviously so many people have been working from home or probably for the next, you know, for the foreseeable future,

we'll be working at home a lot. And obviously that's a huge shift in our mindset. And again, coming back to finding kind of as much productivity and enjoyment from every day as we can. Do you have any kind of top tips for enjoying this this shift to remote working and you know because I think a lot of people are really missing their colleagues and their kind of camaraderie of of being in a group environment so I think definitely thinking about how you start and end your day is really pivotal to kind of having a good successful day. Thinking about

where you're working in your home, whether you have the dedicated office space that you can actually shut the door. If you don't and you feel like actually I'm working in a place where my dining room is also my working space, how will you create those transitions throughout your day? So you're switching off from work. So, you know, either making sure you get dressed and you head over to your office in some respects, and you kind of switch off for the evening by moving away, putting away your laptop, and that kind of being the close of play or the close of business for you and marking it. Like for me, I mark it with senses, I put on different scents. Sometimes I change

clothes just to kind of be like, right, that's the end of the working day for me. I think taking, you know, restful breaks throughout the day is good to step away from the screen, but also to get a bit grounded, get outdoors and to really reflect on different ways that you kind of want to show up for the afternoon, maybe doing a mini meditation. I like to do little mini holiday meditations where I'm kind of visualizing being somewhere else. And that is a clear marker to me to then go into like the afternoon work, which might be a bit more creative. I think especially now for those who are working in companies, visibility is a thing. So making sure that you feel seen in your company and with your teams.

So check in with people actively. Think about how you'll build your relationships differently across these virtual platforms via Slack. Or maybe you can initiate some gatherings with your team members online or if you want to congregate in person as well think about how you relay your success to your manager around what you've been working on because you know the opportunities for promotion and things like that can often go amiss when we're not seeing each other in the workspace and so I think now it's going to be ever more important for you to be vocal about your wins and what you're working on. And I think actively, you know, really monitoring your support system and thinking if I have the right friends or family, but actually I want to grow in these other areas, how will I actively find communities online and offline that can help me grow and move in the right direction for me? Because I think that's

going to be quite important now we're all kind of working remotely and just taking some restful tech breaks we're not machines so we definitely need to find other joys for me it's definitely cooking love experimenting and playing around in the kitchen and it's just nice to not be in front of a laptop so you know I immerse myself in that and music and find other ways of living and being as well yeah I couldn't agree with that more I think those are those are so on the money just there and as we kind of start to wrap up I just one question I had because I think it's something that everyone can struggle with obviously again to greater and lesser extent but there can be a feeling of burnout from work and and how how do you kind of suggest approaching feeling really burnout so I would identify and I try and do um as part of movement

in the morning it might even just be a body scan meditation. I think it's us getting very aware with our bodies. Sometimes when we're in this burnout stage, we've kind of separated the mental out of the body. And I think we can just think we keep going, but actually our body's been telling us for a while that it's tired or that something just isn't working. So when we do a reflection and we sit with our bodies, you know, are you feeling any pain? Is there any stress? Are you feeling your shoulders are a bit more hunched up, back pain, especially now when people are working from home on chairs that aren't quite built for office working. Suddenly we're getting all of these muscular and skeletal issues, really paying attention to what's going on in your body.

And if you're feeling mentally exhausted, like how could you build in some time now into your week where you are taking some zones of joy and bliss and getting outside and refreshing and hydrating in different ways and looking after your body and taking time for that fitness. And I think we have to actually block it out in our calendar. Like I have a save space series on my YouTube where I talk about saving space for this stuff, whether you're a founder or you're working in a company, mapping out some time in your diary, blocking it and ring fencing it to say, actually this hour, every other day, I'm going to take 30 minutes and I'm just going to go for a walk, or I'm just going to take a moment to do some yoga.

And if you don't have it in your calendar, like it's not going to happen, you'll always say, tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, but really block it out. Educate other people in your life. Actually, do not disturb me between 11 and whatever because I do need to take this time for myself to feel good because if we continue it's very easy for everything to just blur into one and you'll pay for it later your body will tell you or when you actually do get a time to pause that's when you get sick and it often happens with people when we finally take stock or we have a holiday we suddenly end up sick on that holiday because we've just kept going and

going and going and our body's like okay you're not listening and now I'm going to tell you I'm going to unravel in front of your eyes so I'd rather people just think about it incrementally every day what can I do to kind of really safeguard my energy and my attention and awareness in my body? The thing that I've really taken away from this conversation is the importance of stopping seeing your work and your career as something that's isolated. And it's not. Even if you, you know, leave your home and leave all your kind of things that you love and go into a job you don't particularly enjoy, it still is not isolated. Your mentality, your approach, all of it is so connected.

The joy you get outside of work, you can't look at it just in isolation. And I really love your way that you look at it there and just really appreciate you sharing all your insights with us today. Because as I said, you know, it is mad that so many of us spend so much time doing something that we just get so little from. And that potentially has a really negative impact on our mental health that we then have to spend so long trying to rectify. Yeah. And I think that's the thing, you know, it is that intertwining and it's becoming even more blurred and so whatever energy you bring into that situation whether it's work you take it away from you as well and you know we used to be going into these workplaces begrudging and thinking oh god I really don't want to be here and then you have that energy throughout your whole day and then you then bring it back into your home life and that impacts on how you might treat your partner or your kids. And now if it's all bunched into one home life, it's eruptive. And so

we really do have to take stock of how we're living and working and being and what small, subtle tweaks can we make to just live better and be better. And if you were going to leave our listeners today with three takeaways for exactly that what would they be one I think is definitely really think about what's going on in the four areas of your life in your work in your relationship with yourself the relationships you have with other people and in your home and what do you think you're going to make an effort to change. I would really want people to be present with how they're starting and ending their days because I think how you top and tail your day is either a recipe for success or disaster and also I just want to give

people that reassurance that you do have a sense of agency in whatever situation you might be feeling right now whether you're in despair if you've been furloughed or redundant or you're contemplating something new and you're lacking in that confidence just know that just put one foot on the ladder and you don't need to know the whole staircase or where you're going but just make a concerted effort to try and to put yourself out there and be brave and then keep moving from there. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing everything today. I'll put the details for your book and the books you mentioned as well in the show notes below. And I really hope everyone's got as much from today. I know I have got so much from it. Just so appreciate you sharing all your

thoughts. Thank you. And we will be back again next Tuesday. If you have enjoyed it, please do share it with anyone you think might enjoy it as well. Rate it and review it. It makes all the difference. And otherwise, have a lovely day and a lovely week. You're a podcast listener,

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