The Wellness Scoop - Fussy Eaters, BMI Myths & The School Dessert Debate

Episode Date: March 26, 2026

How can you boost nutrition for fussy children without changing the foods they already love? How reliable is BMI as a measure of health, particularly for women or people recovering from disordered eating? And should desserts really be served every day in primary schools? This week we answer your questions on hidden nutrients for picky eaters, navigating BMI without damaging your relationship with food, and the debate around sugary desserts in school meals. We also talk about spotting misleading health claims online and share lots of practical tips to help make everyday wellness feel simpler. Send your questions for our weekly Q&A to ⁠[e-mail]⁠. Order your copy of Ella's new book: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quick Wins: Healthy Cooking for Busy Lives⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Order your copy of Rhi's book: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Fibre Formula⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You'll find the same regular prices online as in-store. Many promotions are available both in-store and online, though some may vary. Welcome to the Wellness Scoop, your weekly doork. of health and wellness inspiration and as always we're both here as your host i'm ella mills and i'm reanna nabbitt and we have got the best questions from you our lovely listeners today on our extra scoop first of all re have you got any good wrecks for us what do we need in our life okay so i've started a court of thorn and roses the book um so now i'm moving on to the akatar series that everybody was talking about as discussed read there's so many emails in

the inbox being like I'm in this phase two this romantasy world has sucked me in oh my goodness and i had to persevere slow burner i have to say this book whereas fourth wing pulled me right in but oh interesting quarterthorn and rose is more of a slow burn such a slow burn i mean i'm halfway through the book and i'm only just getting hooked whereas fourth wing it was like straight away for me so now i am completely invested okay that's good intel it's a very strange world i'd say more strange than the Dragons, Ella. But I also want to recommend, if you want an uplifting moment, this had me in floods of tears. And it's a Britain's Got Talent clip from Shaney Wallace. And she's 92, 92. And Shaney gets up on stage in front of Simon Cowell, you know, Amanda Holden.

Is this an old clip gone viral? I don't know if it's current or old. I didn't see the timestamp on it. I should have had a look. But it's going viral now. So it probably is a case of it being old and going viral, I suppose. But she's 92 and she looks phenomenal. And she starts saying, you know, you'll know me. I was last on the stage in his 70 years ago. And it just had me welling up because it turns out she is Nancy from the film Oliver.

No. But you know the original? Yeah, she was Nancy. And she gets up and sings and, oh, Ella, you know when you watch those types of, I mean, I've got a love-hate relationship with the show because I've been on BGTV. before in the past and had all those yeses and it's all a bit fixed and everything's obviously it's a TV show guys before it's a talent show. Just remember that. But this clip had me welling, like crying. Oh my gosh. I need to connect that up. And then I went to see Lucy Jones, my friend

in Le Mise. She's smashing it. She's heavily pregnant, playing Fonteen, killing it. Ella, you went to see Matilda. Oh my gosh. First of all, I love Le Miz and I'm just counting down till we can do a family trip there because I'm obsessed. It's just unreal. But I went to see Matilda with the family and with my brother and his wife and their kids as well on the weekend. And oh my gosh, can I just say Matilda, the musical, is unreal. It is so good. The little girl that played Matilda was just so beyond in her talent. Ella cried everybody. Oh my gosh. She had a huge standing ovation. and every single person on the theatre was on that I'm like crying again.

Yeah, I know, she's welling up again. About to get me, period. Anyway, I was crying my eyes out. Everyone was standing up, clapping and like shouting at her. And she welled up with emotion as well. And it was all just too much. Anyways, but it's such a great show. Oh my God.

I can't tell how much I know. We all loved it. Matt was crying as well. Probably won't mind me saying. Honestly, Timothy Shalamo, wherever you are, to dismiss. live theatre and performance and we are going to keep going on about it because I think it's absolutely fantastic and it got Matt going too. I also, before I forget Ella, moving on from

Matilda, there is a book that I thought you'd appreciate called The Anti-Burnout Book by Dr. Emma Hepburn and I think it's just been released and that is on my radar. I just thought I'd shout it out. I'll put it on my radar. Yeah, because it's something I now think people are talking about. But I know we both really wanted to talk about the Louis-Thirdreau. through. Oh my gosh. Okay. So Louis Thruh, just in case you on in the UK and don't know him, he's probably, he's by far one of the most prolific, if not kind of just after David Attenborough, the most prolific documentary maker in the UK has been making amazing documentaries for decades. And what he tends to do as a general rule of them is go and spend time with controversial characters, but he does it in a very non-judgmental way. So he gets a lot out of them. And it's a very interesting exploration. of kind of different cults and counterculture movements. He's absolutely fantastic anyway. So he's just made a new one on Netflix called Manosphere

in case you weren't aware of it. It is really interesting. I have to say, well, our producer and I were just talking about this. I watched Ad Lessons when it came out, what was that about a year ago? And obviously thought it was one of the best shows I've seen in ages. It is just, I think, objectively speaking, a phenomenal piece. But I guess there was a tiny part of me that was skeptical that a normal, quote-unquote,

otherwise happy child with nice parents, you know, parents that care about them could do something so awful, could be transformed by such a way by the online world that not knowing what was going on on a teenager's phone could be quite so dangerous. And over the last year, obviously having that awareness, the rise of AI, the change in the online world, have just become increasingly aware of the fact that I was completely wrong on that. And I think this documentary on the Manosphere highlights that to such an extraordinary degree that, I mean, we're all impressionable, but I think we probably could all collectively agree that teenagehood is an incredibly impressionable, vulnerable period. And the exposure that you can have to these figures and their viewpoints of the world

and how that could shape your identity is. absolutely petrifying. It's that phrase, if you say something with confidence and conviction, you will be believed. And I feel... When the guy says, he's looking at the Miami Cityscape and he's like, men built this.

And Louis III is like, so sorry, do you know that that every building we can see was built and like the architect was a man? He was like, he doesn't really answer it, but it's like, how can you like concretely say that the entire Miami Cityscape you can see was built by a man? I mean, he said something like,

one thing that a female has invented and we're like well Wi-Fi everything you know marry and you know the fact is we can find it entertaining and funny but the terrifying like underlight is literally that these men completely and utterly believe in themselves and their messaging and when asked are you a misogynist to one of these male influencers he said no because i don't hate women you're like no but you've just said you want multiple wives one-sided polygamy And also he said, oh, she just cleans up after me. She's happy to do it. It was an unbelievably confusingly terrifying world.

I could not get over what I was watching. And there was a very interesting bit with the mum of one of these men towards the end. I don't know if you've got to yet. I don't think I've got there quite yet. I'm probably two thirds of the way, three quarters the way through. And he definitely wasn't brought up to be that way. And what Louis Theroux exposed was perhaps there's a lack of male rom. models in these men's lives from a young age or lack of parental role modeling in some cases

that shape their beliefs. But there's a huge movement because I'd heard of Andrew Tate obviously and things that he does and says, but I hadn't heard of this world at all either. That's the interesting thing with the online world is you can have things that are enormous, absolutely huge, millions, tens of millions of people even engaging in it. But it still exists in an online niche. And so it doesn't, it's not kind of famous. in the conventional way that I think when things used to be famous,

if that many people were aware of them, they'd exist in kind of common culture as well. I mean, like traditional broadcast media, for example, but now you can have this enormous community that exists online that actually then other people have just never ever heard of. And Jill, what's interesting is I saw Spencer Matthews was berated for speaking out against it, which is so interesting. So he tried to say, this is not okay, you know, being a man in the spotlight, I suppose.

I think I actually appreciate someone like that coming out and saying this is not okay. But he was completely and utterly taken down in the media saying, well, you used to be that type of person in his past, which I think he's very open about. But that's so sad that we're now putting down men that are trying to speak up for women, regardless of their past or not. I also believe strongly everyone should be allowed to change. I agree. I'm interested producer will just for a male opinion on this world. you know, as women, we're obviously outraged, but I'm interested, Ted Will. Willer, do you heard of it? Yeah, I was aware of it. I kind of, obviously, there's the Andrew Tate side, which I think is probably the more famous aspect of it, but I was conscious of the world surrounding that.

I don't think Andrew Tate exists in a vacuum. And also his kind of way of doing it is kind of quite, it's easy to kind of replicate as well, I think. So yes, I was aware of it. Wow, that's so interesting. So see, whereas Ella and I weren't, and I'm worried that as a mother of two boys, I mean, obviously I'm going to be keeping my sons off socials as long as I physically possibly can. That's the last thing I want to pop up on their phones when they're teenagers. Well, that's what's so frightening, I think about it. And we obviously spoke on Monday's episode about this Mum's Net campaign for social media. But I do think in the way that adolescence moved the public conversation forward in terms of a more legislative approach to it, I think that this will take that one step further. But also, again, it comes back to this insane power and to be honest, lack of accountability that these enormous technology companies have, where ultimately, as we know, controversial content is what performs on their algorithm. And so the more controversial they are,

the more click-baity they are, the more effective their marketing is. And it's quite clear in so many ways that lots of them don't actually believe in everything that they're saying. Like you own an on only fan site, but would disown your child if they were on only fans. Like there's some very clear gaps in the rhetoric

and it's exposed pretty quickly, it falls down pretty quickly. but it's so effective online. No, and also there's a huge body dysmorphic issue to discuss here as well because they... Looks maxing. Yes, is that what it's called? Okay, next Monday's trend, looks maxing. We're going to go into that.

It's very interesting. Really affecting men, but I think we'll... It's also just a terrible name. So yeah, looks maxing Monday. Looks maxing. That's so interesting because all of these men were trying to replicate a Ken Barbie doll physique, essentially. I don't know how else to describe it. And if you weren't that, you know, they took a look at Louis through as he walked in and Louis said to the first man, he said, what do you think of

my arms? You know, he was very direct with the guy. And yeah, that's quite disturbing in itself. The body image, the dysmorphia. There's, I mean, I dread to think how many steroids and things are being pumped around. There's a lot of conversation to be had on it, Ella. It's just really disturbing, isn't it? There's also so much on image and peptides as well in the media. I know we've talked about before. So we might sneak that back into looks maxing on Monday for you guys. I've just made a few notes on my phone.

Look maxing, bring it on. We've got some recommendations for my listens today that are actually quite positive. Yes, we have such a nice one from Amy who listens to the Wellness Scoot from Washington, D.C. in the US. She says, I love Rees focus on adding things in as opposed to cutting things out. Me too.

Loading up my oatmeal with yummy fruits, nuts and seeds has become a cherished part of my morning ritual and I've been cooking several of Ella's recipes on repeat to bring to the office for lunch, looking at you, squash and tomato doll. I'm actually writing in with a recommendation for another podcast I think you guys might enjoy. I'm 35, two young boys, four and two,

and relate to so much of what you both share about your lives, including the pressures of jettling parenthood with everything else. Good Inside podcast by Dr. Becky is a great podcast about parenting and wellness and her February 19th episode, just 25 minutes long, talks about rest and guilt in such an interesting way. What struck me the most was the line, rest is not a reward which was so powerful. I immediately thought of Ella's focus on slowing down and living well, now emulated by we highly recommend. I love that. Okay, so we have a good podcast

recommendation, everybody. And also, just to reiterate, Washington, amazing. We've got some lovely listeners all around the world on this podcast and we appreciate your input and what is going on in your society where you are. We love to hear it. Yeah, and it's fun to know where you're from. Okay, question one today comes from Louise. I tried your two. pancake idea for my very fussy five and three year old. I use Greek yogurt, flour, milk, chia, flaxseeds, honey and 70% dark chocolate and they absolutely loved them and I now make them for them every morning, which makes me feel so much better about getting them a nutritious breakfast. And they think I'm the best mom making chocolate pancakes every morning. That really makes me happy.

Okay, my question is, is there anything else I could add to the pancakes? I wouldn't change the taste or texture, but would make them even more nutritious. Fruit or nut butter toppings are a no for them, that's got to be going into the batter. So that's question one. And then she's got a second one, Ella, which is my second question is, do you have any other similar hidden nutrient tips for my fussy children? They're staples at the moment, a spag bowl, spaghetti bolognese. Sorry, I abbreviated that and you didn't even write it.

Homemade pizzas, despite my best efforts to introduce new foods and healthy options, I'm thinking puddings or snacks with disguised nutrients similar to the pancakes or ways I can add things into the meals to boost. Ella, over to you. Oh, I just love for you. your approach. I feel like Louise, you're smashing it in life. And obviously those pancakes such a nice example. You've got Greek yogurt, great for protein sauce, chia and flax for fiber, healthy fats, little deliciousness from your honey, dark chocolate. So lucky kids. I mean, there's obviously

other things you can add in and tweak. I make pancakes for my kids that are often one egg with one overripe banana, a tablespoon of nut butter, normally peanut butter, some jumbo oats and self-raising flour sometimes I'll add hemp seeds or cheer seeds as well and then when I cook them sometimes and this might not be for your children but put blueberries in the batter as I cook them they absolutely love them I just whiz everything up in a mini blender and they love them they're super quick really nutritious but in terms as well if you didn't want to try a new recipe and keep your own things like maybe finely milled oats or oat flour in there would be amazing or ground almonds which you can use as a type of flour a spoonful of nut butter in the batter as well um

Again, just like a teaspoon of almond butter probably won't really change any of the flavor, but obviously we know almond's so good for us or a little bit of mashed banana as well. I love that. And then if you're thinking of getting super duper creative, you can start adding like a bit of the top of the broccoli to pancakes and they don't often see it. It depends on the age of the kids, on terms of nutrients. And isn't squash a good one to do or carrot, you can mix in a little bit? My kids also, we do green pancakes, but more for supper. Because you can do rainbow ones. Yeah, and I'll do a tablespoon or so of just from a jar of pesto, a little bit self-raising flour, and then some just blanched peas and edamame, some spinach and flour, I think I already said, and an egg.

And that's it. It takes me like five minutes. They really like them. So that could be a nice sneak. And then I'll do like a yogurt pesto dip or something for them to put them into. And then you, last week, didn't we cover the legendary pitter pizzas that we were making? Because you can do so many different things with the, the top. tomato sauce, I feel is the key for hiding everything.

Yeah. Or even in the Bolognese, like, even, I know it sounds so simple, but even if you do just switching up the onions, you know, for the diversity, for our gut health, we obviously want 30 different plants. We're using a red onion, white onion, a shallot. Leaks. Those are three different plants for your 30, so you could be switching those up. Or yeah, exactly, you could finally, really finally chop up one leak or a few mushrooms,

super, super diced. They're not really going to know they're there. So that's probably where I would start, is not really fundamentally changing your Bolognese recipe, but switching up the onion, try one extra carrot, finely, finely diced or one league or just three mushrooms finely diced. Blend some beans in any sauce. That's your fibre tip. Just to get a bit more fibre into your meals, you can mix butter beans. They're so soft and mushy.

They blend really nicely into so many different recipes. And sometimes with making your own pizzas, I find again, if my kids are in charge, the things like corn, for example, like just in sweet corn, they'll sprinkle it on because they like the idea of sprinkling on and then they eat it. Wonderful question there. It's making small nutritional wins where we can. Our next question is from Lily. Hi, Wellness Scoop. I hope you're all doing well. I'm obsessed with the pod and I've taken away so many little habits over the past year to add into my daily routine, which feels manageable but also really transformational.

Oh, I love that. That's really nice. I saw the below clip on social media the other the day and I wanted to send it in. Firstly, because it made me pretty irate, this is a public figure who claims to advocate for health and boasts one million followers. I know that this is an advert for a specific product, but I do find this messaging so confusing. I know after listening to hours of the wellness scoop and studying fiber, yay, at university that this can't be true, but I catch myself honestly questioning myself and feeling the need to research whether this is true or not. My question, therefore, is less direct to fibre specifically, but more, how can we manage and limit the consumption of health claims that littered social media?

I'm very careful who I follow, but with paid advertising, there is no escaping it. Any tips or ideas to verify a claim or spot a fake one would be so helpful. Thank you so much for everything you do on the pod. I'm generally grateful to have it as a resource and tool in my back pocket. It's truly inspiring and it's changing lives. She's got in brackets one tin of beans at a time. We're a cliche with our love of beans, aren't we? Such a great question, Lily.

So just to summarize what the ad lily's talking about is, it's basically an ad for supplements brand, and it's got someone from Maiden Chelsea in it. And this person, the premise basically is the celeb asking, what is enough fiber? And then kind of sarcastically say, do I need to eat enough fiber that I don't think he says it quite so politely, poo myself?

So basically kind of slightly poking fun at needing to eat the recommended daily amount and more fibre. And annoys me, Ella. He better does. And then the person who answers a question basically is advertising a probiotic and essentially in a nutshell says, don't bother eating fibre if you're finding this probiotic, you don't need it. So, Lily, I'm not really surprised you're confused. It's insane.

It's completely mad. Shouldn't be allowed. Yeah. That's really unethical and that company should know better. But it's also, it's just not true because probiotics and fibroids. to do different jobs. And I think that's the key crux of the issue. So you can't take a probiotic and not eat any fibre.

Expect your bowel to suddenly improve. Yeah. So just to remind us, Re, what does fibre do and what do probiotics do? Because I think that's very important cementing here. Yeah. This exact question Ella asked at my book launch, actually, the other week, ironically. So fibre is the indigestible part of the plant. And that fibre itself is almost like a pre-bartic.

Fiber helps feed the bacteria within our gut. It also helps us remove cholesterol, it helps us excrete waste products. So fiber could help excrete microplastics. It's also linked to keeping our heart health happy and reducing blood sugar spikes. So fiber has so many different roles and reducing your risk of cancer. It is pivotal. We don't just think of fiber as bowel movements. But of course, we need to be looking at our bowel movements. They are important. So fiber helps nourish that garden. Whereas a pro. Robotic is inserting live bacteria, not the fiber, the live bacteria directly to the gut. And there's also limited research for many different brands as to whether that bacteria reach the gut alive in the place it needs to be at the bottom of the colon. So yes, probiotics have a place. We know that. But fiber is the fundamental, not just for your poo, it's about so many areas of your health. Even your DNA is linked to how much fiber within your gut.

So it frustrates me out that I get really angry messaging like this. Yeah, I mean, fibre is the food, in the most basic way, fiber is the food and the probiotics are inserting more bugs to eat said food. And so it's really odd because ultimately you want both together. Like it would be totally amiss to be spending money on probiotics, but they're not feeding them in the long run. You know what? It sounds like they're just saying, go and eat a load of protein bars, just have a lot of protein bars, just have a are probiotic and don't bother with any actual whole foods or density because it doesn't matter. And that's just, that's kind of the messaging that I think people get from that type of

conversation. And it's really poor. It's really poor. And also really did just, sorry, we'll go on to now how to just kind of critically evaluate ads. But just one quick thing you just raised, which I think is important to say, there are so many probiotics out there. Lots of them don't have the research to show that those probiotics can actually reach the gut alive. And if those probiotics, If the bacteria aren't reaching the gut alive, they aren't going to do anything. Also, how to decipher it. So there are people out there selling probiotics claiming they've got lots of research behind them, whereas actually they've not done any research at all on their own product.

And what they've done is selected studies on individual strains of bacteria, pulled them together to make it sound like because their product contains always different types of strains, that their product's superior to others. it's very effective marketing because you're bashing other products in return. But what it hasn't done is actually studied. Does my probiotic actually work with this formulation? Totally. And the way a capsule's created and the whole thing around it,

it's not as simple as just it contains this strain of bacteria. And you see that with this isn't just limited to probiotics. We see that all the time. Do you know what I like about, so I want to mention, I think it's really important with transparent that Simprove is one of our sponsors. And I just want to say as a health professional, the reason I'm okay about it being our sponsor is because SimProve has clinical research on its own product. And they actually invest in looking into how they can help other areas of health. And we're talking lots of different conditions and constant investigation and research.

But also lots of the research that proves that Simprove work is independent to the brand, which is very important to say as well. Exactly. And we're not saying you all need to go and have that at all. We're just saying, please just eat more fiber. but this conversation is ludicrous, the fibre and probiotic one. Yeah, so that distills the kind of crux of the ad, which is that you don't want to be taking probiotics. I know people across with us for our simplification, but it's no point buying pets to put in your stomach

if you don't then feed the pets. You've got to feed your pets. Got to feed the pets, guys. So basically look for consensus, not outliers. So if a claim goes against the majority of scientific guidance, like this one obviously does, be cautious. You know, check the World Health Organisation, a National Dietary Guidelines,

message, a registered nutritionist, but even that in itself is hard to decipher these days. So beware of miracle claims, if anyone's saying this is the one thing that changed my entire life. And I didn't do anything else. I just took this one thing. That's obviously a humongous red flag.

No single pill, powder, liquid, whatever, can be presented as the solution to complex health issues. That's just ultimate red flag. And fear-based language. The word toxic or never eat this, you just wouldn't hear credible doctors, professionals using that language because it provokes anxiety and instills disordered relationships with food. And our job is to deliver safe messaging, not to fear munga. And then one other thing to add on to that type of messaging is that it's so, so important

that what I eat in a days are not representative of what will work to you. And like we said with the Manasphere stuff at the beginning, people are creating content now purely just to go viral and they will do anything. So it's hard to decipher. The other thing I would just say as a closing point on that, and I think this is true with everything in life, but it's definitely true generally with health and wellness. If something looks too good to be true, it probably is. You know, ultimately, as we said, like health is so nuanced. It's so complex. It's so multifaceted. What works for one person won't necessarily work for another person. It's all sorts of different pillars put together. It's not, you know, even if you had one supplement that would cure everything from your diet,

which as we've seen in all these studies looking at these powders that claim to do that isn't true at the moment, your stress, your sleep, your movement, your relationships, your sense of purpose, of community are all foundational to your health as well. So just never let someone believe that buying one thing can solve all your problems because I wish it could, it can't. And also these people sometimes that are delivering these messages genuinely are convinced by their own messaging. And that's what makes it very difficult to decipher when they are 100% convinced that what they've created or discovered or are pushing via an affiliate link or something, they genuinely believe that that might be the answer. And because they're not trained to understand nuances and they're not scientists, they're not health professionals, this is where the moral compass line comes, Ella, as to how far should influence a marketing go. it's up to companies to actually take an onus on who they align themselves with as well. And you can actually write to these companies.

So for instance, I would probably as a consumer email or write a complaint about that specific ad, for instance, tell the companies what you're seeing. If you have time, is this ethical? Is it right? And hopefully they will take note. Exactly. And hopefully we're here to help. Yes. Always send them to us and we'll help you out.

When Westcham first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion. Inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to WestJetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. This episode is brought to you by FedEx. These days, the power move isn't having a big metallic credit card to drop on the check at a corporate lunch.

The real power move is leveling up your business with FedEx intelligence and accessing one of the biggest data networks powered by one of the biggest delivery networks. Level up your business with FedEx, the new power move. You all know me. I'm about adding more in, not cutting things out, no fads, no diets, just evidence and transparency. And right now in the UK, everyone, 96% of us, that's 96%. are not getting enough fiber. It's one of the lowest figures in the world, and I couldn't ignore it. So we've spent years obsessing over protein and other trends, and I'm delighted to share that after a year in the making, my new book, the fiber formula is available to purchase. I have answered every

question from gut health and energy, cancers and heart disease to aging skin longevity and even microplastics. Built on over a decade of clinical research, it gives you my fiber formula, 30 grams of fiber a day, 30 different plants a week, 30 twos and 30 minute meals, plus 60 delicious minimally processed recipes to make it doable. I've done the hard work, so the protein, fiber and plant points are all laid out for you. So the fiber formula is out. Now everyone, if you head to the link in the show notes, you can purchase it from any bookstore or on Amazon and I'd love to hear your feedback. Let me know how you get on. Question three comes from Esme, who's 23 and living in Falmouth, Cornwall, Beautiful.

She found the podcast at the beginning of the year and it makes her feel shiny all day long. It's so grounding and encourages honest, compassionate approach to wellness. So thank you. Well, thank you, Asme. Esme is super honest, which as we were talking about again in Monday is so important because we all struggle at different points in life. And I think the more honest we are, the more we can support each other and not feel alone in it. She said, I've had a rocky relationship with food for years, as I think many young people, especially girls have. I've been bulimic, but have sat at a comfortable wait for some time now, much steadier. I eat whole foods 80% the time. I'm pescatarian and I exercise a lot because it gives me joy and a pep in my step, long runs and long hiking and the corner coastal path and yoga.

And my heart rate rests at 56. I feel the fittest I've done in maybe all my life. Yay. But after recently going to the pharmacist, I had to step on the scales the first time in many years. and I've learned that my BMI is technically just overweight. I am tall, though, just for reference. How reliable is BMI as an indicator for health? As someone who struggled with disordered eating before,

should I risk a relationship I'm building with food in order to try and lose weight to get into the healthy BMI again range? Is it different for women? Should we be following BMI as a good guideline? It's such a great question because BMI is very confusing, I think. Oh, hello. I mean, it's based off men for so many years, you know, and women just didn't get a look in and this sort of thing.

I think BMI is quite archaic now, to be honest. Interesting. Okay, first of all, before we go into why it's okay, just give our listeners a reminder what is BMI and now tell us please why it's archaic. Yeah, of course. First of all, gosh, I'm so glad you trust us with your experiences and your stories

and thank you for sharing because there will always be somebody that can relate. And we have all ages listening to the wellness scoop. We've had some, you know, from 14 years up to 80 years, we have got a lovely range of people that will have different life experiences that can help. So BMI is a very outdated blunt tool, I think, is a way of using it that really just identifies someone health based on the number of the scales compared to their height. But, you know, that number on the scales doesn't tell a wider picture of muscle mass, bone density, genetics, you know, your composition, your hormone levels, your fitness levels. Your BMI doesn't tell you anything.

And the fact that we use this measure for so many years to define one's health is just highly concerning. And the analogy you're here everywhere when we discuss BMI is probably a rugby player. It's what we used to do at uni. You know, a lot of muscle mass, very tall, would be classified as overweight or even obese in some cases because of the weight on the scales. But actually, they're just holding a lot of muscle. They're very cardiovascularly fit. Most of the time, obviously, that can vary. But clinically, you know, we look at a.

a much broader picture now. I'm more interested in your cholesterol, your blood pressure, your blood sugar response, prospranjol after a meal, your menstrual health, if you're within that age or your menopause symptoms, energy levels, diet quality, you know, where you store fat on the body should be of a GP's concern, fat distribution, physical fitness. And I think ultimately encouraging anything that's around weight, a GP should know or have, I don't know if you've actually shared it actually, but if it's on their file that you've had. an eating disorder or bulimia. GPs have very little training in this area.

Very, very little training. And it's actually something that's also being campaigned for alongside nutrition training. But they shouldn't be bringing up numbers on the scales. And weighing you as an outpatient is also something that I'm very confused why a GP would weigh you, having seen that and knowing your situation, unless it was an annual checkup. Did you say it was an annual health checkup? No, she just said she had to go to the pharmacist. Yeah.

You see, a pharmacist shouldn't be weighing you either unless you were specifically asked to be weighed. So I still think there's this very outdated response from medical professionals that does need a bit of awareness. And this is no shame on medics. There's no real wide training here. But focusing a number on the scales of someone that has a previous history of disorder eating or eating disorders can be very, very damaging. So first of all, BMI, definitely not the one, Ella. No, muscle is denser than fat. And that's such an important point to remember.

And you can be healthy at so many shapes and sizes. You know, this is a rough, remember, numbers are rough estimations. I think as much as possible, I think Re's advice is probably to forget that interaction ever happened. Yeah, pretty much. I definitely wouldn't. It sounds like you're doing really well on your recovery and health journey. Obviously, I can't offer bespoke advice. And if you had a wonderful care team that got you to where you are now,

they're the people you should reach back out to trust in those people that helped you recover to where you are now. But as a nutshell of how reliable BMI is for an indicator for health or whether we should be following it as a good guideline, I think generally the sense is not really it's quite an outdated metric. Very outdated. And remember, it might be useful in a surgical environment where an anesthetist has to work out certain levels or if you are waiting for bariatric surgery and you're living with obesity. And there's various conditions and places. you know, of course, these numbers have a place and a reason. But for broader health terms, for most of us, it's just so arbitrary. It's just so pointless. Love that.

Okay. Interesting question from Chloe for our fourth question today. He said, I want to get your thoughts on the below. I've been watching all the hate. Montana Brown has been getting on TikTok for asking why do we need to give kids at primary school desserts every day. She specifically means the more processed desserts versus fruit and yogurt. I've just enrolled in nursery and was delighted at how healthy the menu is.

However, I've now checked the food menu for the two. primary schools closest to me and have been shocked to suddenly see the fall in nutrition, similar to what Montana mentioned, very sugary processed desserts every day. It seems so contrasting and I wanted to get your thoughts. Now, I'm not like a TikTok person. I actually don't have TikTok. So I wasn't clued up on Montana Brown or this. So if you're not either, she is a British reality TV personality. She became really well known after appearing on Love Island in 2017. I actually that loser the Watchers Love Island now and didn't watch her when it was popular so I miss that bit and she has about 1.1 million followers on Instagram over half a million followers on TikTok and she

talks about food wellness parenting she's also got two young kids and then last week she posted a TikTok I've watched it and she's kind of just chatting to camera discussing desserts and UK school meals the video's heard about nearly two million views and basically she says why do children need desserts day like sticky toffee pudding every day. It would be strange if your colleague at work ate sticky toffee pudding with custard every day. And she went on to say she believes this may contribute to weight struggles later in life, arguing that when children grow up expecting pudding daily, it's hard to wean them off that. And as Chloe said, she suggests yoghurt and fruit instead. I think Montana you are, I think she's actually a very responsible, fantastic person when it comes to speaking

out for women, for children. I don't think there's anything really wrong with the first half of what she said. And I think the emotive issue came in and the second part of her phrase, which she wouldn't know, she's not a health professional. And perhaps she shouldn't have said how it would impact children later on in life. Because she doesn't know that, you know, that's not a fact that most children that eat desserts will shape their behaviour later on in life. That's something only, I think, a health professional should say. Devil's advocate, Harry, we do know that, as we talked about on Monday, one in five children leave primary school now in the UK. And it's just those, if you end up struggling with weight at an early age,

it is difficult to change that later on in life. That's true if you are a child who's overweight or obese, 100%. So I just want to say I can see why it's controversial to the beginning. Because initially, my gut reaction is, yes, you go, girl. Me and Ella, all about that. Thank you for sticking up for children and for the terrible primary school food system. which is archaic, outdated. My kids eat jelly all the time for pudding.

And the list one was like, it's vegetarian. I was like, that doesn't make it better. No. No. And you know what? I'm all for a homemade apple sponge with minimal sugar and less sugar added into it and things that could be nutritionally dense. A jelly, I mean, what's the point?

Yeah, like a flapjack. You know, if it's mostly oats with raisins, a little bit of sugar, but you're getting oats, you're getting dried fruits, etc. You've got fibre. A fruit, quite. crumble even where you again, like if it's an Oaty topping and you've got fruit underneath it. But she's right. It would be weird if your colleague ate sticky toffee pudding with custard every day at work. I just wouldn't expect my colleague to do that. We have a huge issue.

Our food system for children's broken. It's not acceptable at nursery level. It's not acceptable at primary level. Unless you're lucky enough to be in private school education where they make chocolate brownies with beetroot and things and they do think about nutrient dense for state schools in this country, there is huge work to be done. And that's part of my passion project this summer that I'm going to focus on a lot of because there should not be a place or a role for, look, the argument from health freshals that I don't often agree with that are in my campella that I know, you know, where I'm coming from here, is that there are children who don't get any hot meal at home. And their treat of the week and the one thing they really look forward to is

that sticky toffee pudding. But does that need to be every day at the weekend? Could it just be on a Friday or could it just be on a set day? And I think this is where the conversation gets so big and nuanced. Oh, God, it's so difficult because it's so nuanced because in a nutshell, she's completely right. But then when you take that step back, more macro view and you bring in all the complexities and nuances that exist in the world. And as we know, there's too many children living in food poverty in this country and as a result it's really difficult that's what i mean that's why you can't make obesity link with it because it's too we can't just talk about sugar equaling overweight here that this conversation is dental health this conversation is relationships with food it's about

a lack of a missed opportunity to provide something more nourishing for children but then it's hard because we know i mean i can't remember exactly how long this clip was but let's say it's 20 seconds it's very very short but that's what tick tock wants so it's the same weird thing where that's what feeds the algorithm. So that's what gets people to watch it. Whereas if she had a three minute conversation with the nuances, something tells me it would have had like 5,000 views. And that's such the difficult bits. Then people across because she's not bringing new ones. But you're not allowed to bring nuance. It feels like in these platforms. Well, that's just it. You know, if you'd had me get up there and say all of that, it would have

absolutely flopped and died. Yeah. I mean, any of us. But it would have. And I think we do know that now. Whereas that slightly more. And she said, I'm not trying to like rage bait, you know, so I'm not trying to do controversial things for clicks. But it's so complicated. I saw the comments and I was looking for some of the comments. Some people said, but the portions are so small. There was that argument. I hear that argument time and time again with children's nutrition.

It's not about the calories here. We are talking about a missed opportunity to give children nutrition. And you can still provide a nutritious dessert that's delicious, that's chocolate. And that's where our food system's broken because it's ultra-processed. The quality of ingredients is poor. But the food poverty is a whole other issue that it makes me want to cry. Like it's horrendous, bad. And it is to your point, Ray, it is this misopportunity where you could find a bit more middle ground of giving that treat.

But where, as I said, it's an apple crumble or it's a pear crumble. And so it's hot. It's more treaty. It has sugar in the topping. but the topping is also 60% oats. And you've got apple or pear or whichever seasonal fruits in the bays. And so that's my frustration

when my kids are given jelly three times a week. I know. I don't mind. I'm not trying to overly control it, but I feel like there's, or a flapjackie type thing, again, where you're really focused on oats or you could get some seeds in there.

Yeah, things like sunflower seeds aren't too expensive. Kids are so neglected from that age range when they start school. But also we assume they only want really basic things. the frustration with children's menus, we assume they'll only eat sausages and smarties. And if we assume they'll only eat sausages and smarties, that's what they're consistently offered. And therefore, what are we expecting? I know. And then you've got to look at the socioeconomic thing.

Do you know what, Montana, kudos to you. I am, you were so brave to speak out about it. And I think you did a fantastic job. And the only part where it was just the prediction of what happens to children when they're older that would have caused the reaction that I think you had. Because, you know, people were saying she was totally. phone death to demonising sugar. And I think it is purely because like Ella said, the nuance couldn't be discussed to her clip. She's just frustrated to see her kids having chocolate brownies

one day and sticky toffee puddings the next. And I get that. Children's nutrition is wildly neglected Ella. So bring on a summer of focus on that for me. Before we wrap up, we had two more questions, but we're going to have to move them into next week. But I want to ask you one more thing on this. Sorry, really quickly while you're here. Is it not true though? Again, I'm devil's advocating here. that are, it does take work to shift our palettes, children and adults alike. Like if we are used to more sugary food, if we are used to more UPF type foods, you know, if you eat a kind of UPF heavy diet, I'm going to go super extreme here, but assuming we're living mostly on like dominoes, McDonald's, crisps, things like that, sausage rolls.

And, you know, your sugar is more confectionery, traditional kind of cabarets confectionery. and then you're going and you're having carrots and strawberries. They're not going to taste sweet like you're used to and you're not going to get it. That's for all of us, isn't it? Changing your palate is not easy. It's not easy. It's your taste buds and it's your microbiome because actually your diet dictates the gut bugs and the interactions that take place as we know.

And for many people, they just want them full. And I think it's really important to remember. This is why state school food is so controversial. because you want filling hot food that child may not be getting at home. But I'd argue if they're going to be eating convenience foods elsewhere throughout the day, that school meal should not be the place to not help improve their palate or try and do nudges in one direction. That takes funding and investment and it's broken. And you're right, Ella, it's very, very, very difficult.

In fact, your taste buds, when you are a baby are shaped actually from the weaning journey and that can predispose how likely you are to eat vegetables 15 years later. So yeah, it's hard. It's so hard. In Japan, they've got nutritionists in all the schools, and these Asian countries do it so well. It's so much variety in home-cooked foods. Yeah, I'm going to say one last thing,

and then I promise you will stop here. It's a very backwards way of looking at our country because ultimately, like from an economic perspective, a productivity perspective, the healthier we are, the more productive we are as a very general rule. And so we're not setting our future generations up for success. And I find that really frustrating because that affects so many facets of society from a kind of economic and a health perspective.

And it really irks me that we're not investing more because I think it's really short-sighted because we then have to spend huge amounts of money later down the track fixing issues. Anyways. I just want to read out this one that I promised to read out just to give you guys a bit of hope. We have 14-year-old listeners on this podcast as well.

Love that. Yeah, talking to people of all ages. And I just wanted to say here as well, this is from Jessica. Hi guys, I love the podcast so much and I'm a big fan. I really want Rihanna's new book. My birthday's coming up soon.

I'm 14 years old and I'm really into health and wellness. Really hoping you guys will do another live podcast. I really want to go as a birthday gift. Keep up the good work, guys. You're making such a difference. By the way, I got Ella's new Quick Wins book and it's phenomenal. The recipes are so delicious.

And Rihanna's book I'm so excited to get. If all future generations, now I don't know if we're interesting to 14-year-old listeners. I mean, we clearly are to Jessica. But there is hope that if more conversations like Ella and I are having across the age range from 14 all the way up to 100, surely we can unite on some front. And there is a demand. There has to be a demand for better nutrition and health and wellness for all.

I know. And doing it in a way that makes us feel good about ourselves, not sad. Okay, let's leave. Let's be empowered, inspired. Yes, positive. We're brilliant, guys. I mean collectively, not us too. Have a fantastic week, guys.

We'll see on Monday. We'll talk looks maxing. I can't wait.