The Wellness Scoop - How Laughter Can Be The Best Medicine

Episode Date: October 20, 2020

With the world feeling increasingly uncertain and scary, finding the humour in life can often be a struggle but in this week's episode, Ella talks to author Naomi Bagdonas about why it's more important than ever. Despite seeming like a frivolous thing, they explore how humour has the power to actually connect us more as humans as well as the science on why it can impact our physical and mental health and ultimately our wellbeing. Jennifer Aaker and Naomi Bagdonas: Humour, Seriously See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Samsung Galaxy. Ever captured a great night video only for it to be ruined by that one noisy talker? With Audio Erase on the new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, you can reduce or remove unwanted noise and relive your favorite moments without the distractions. And that's not all. New Galaxy AI features like NowBrief will give you personalized insights based on your day schedule so that you're prepared no matter what. Buy the Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra now at Samsung.com. Hi and welcome to the Deliciously Ella podcast with me Ella Mills. So today we're talking to Naomi Bagdonas about the importance of laughter, of finding lightness and joy in the everyday,

which to be honest although in some ways feels a bit silly with how much is going on in the world and how serious and heavy that is, it does in a way feel more important than ever to find that bit of joy and laughter and try and find the good stuff with so many humongous issues and those terrifying news cycles that are happening at the moment and of course so much uncertainty and Naomi teaches a course at Stanford University on humor and she's co-written a book on the subject which just came out and it's really interesting her and her co-author orchestrated a study of 1.5 million people to get more answers on how humor deeply connects us and the huge physical and mental benefits of having a good time and it's just absolutely fascinating it's just not

something you would have really thought of in terms of science or of having a massive impact on our health but actually losing some of the seriousness and finding more laughter actually impacts on everything from our neuroscience to behavioral science connectivity stress huge impact in the workplace and so much. And basically the answer is we all need so much more of it. We need to laugh so much more. So welcome, Naomi. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. The thing that I keep coming back to is, of course, we need humor in our lives, but it's not something that probably many of us have really thought about. And I just would love to ask, like, how did you come to study this and realize the importance of humor in our

lives? Well, for me, humor is really in the ethos of my family. So as an example, during the depression, my grandparents hosted skit nights for the neighborhood kids every week in the suburbs of Chicago to sort of bring a sense of play and togetherness. And then growing up in my family for any family birthday, you always got a custom written song about yourself, which was inevitably funny and totally ridiculous. So growing up and in my family, it was sort of our baseline. I didn't think much of it. But when I started working, things completely changed. In a lot of ways, I felt like I was leading a double life. So at work, I felt all this pressure to be serious and polished and professional.

All the while, I was doing comedy on my nights and weekends, you know, in improv theaters in Los Angeles. And this dichotomy, this sort of double life was exhausting and completely unsustainable. I wasn't having fun at work. I wasn't building meaningful relationships with my colleagues, which at the time I didn't think had to do with humor, but now I really believe it did. And I felt like my work world was really in shades of gray. So for me personally, it wasn't until humor went missing that I started realizing its importance. And so when I went back to graduate school at Stanford, that's when I started diving into the

research. So experimenting with merging these two selves, but also understanding what's the behavioral science of what's happening here. How does humor drive creativity, connection, resilience, and ultimately joy in what people do? And so as that experimentation happened, as I started, you know, trying to bring more humor into work and trying to merge these two selves, I started seeing it as a really powerful tool at work and also in our lives. Not only could I have more joy at the office and feel more authentic, but it could actually be a real asset for me at work. Yeah. I mean, it's so clear reading your book that we have as a collective completely misunderstood estimated humor's potential to transform our life. And there's three areas that

you really talk about that I'm keen to talk about today. And I'd actually love to start with the health because I know you've gone deeply into the empirical research in psychology, sociology, neuroscience, biology. And I wondered just as a kind of overview, what were the key lessons you found? And I wondered if there was anything that surprised you or you didn't really expect to find? Yeah, well, research shows that laughing has unparalleled effects on our neurochemistry and behavior. It changes the chemistry of our brains to make us more primed for connection, more creative and resourceful and more resilient to stress.

And if you think about well-being, and especially well-being in this moment in time, with the shift to remote work and with all that's going on in the world, many of us have never felt more disconnected from our colleagues and from our loved ones. Rates of depression and loneliness are on the rise. And while humor may seem totally frivolous in the context of a global pandemic, a climate crisis, the other things that are going on in our world right now, it's actually in these moments of gravity and disconnection when levity can be so powerful. So when we laugh with someone, we connect in a really powerful way. Neurochemically, laughing together gives you more bang for your buck when it comes to interpersonal

connection than just about anything else. And part of this is our brains release the hormone oxytocin when we laugh, which makes us more bonded and feel more trusting of the person that we're with. And this is true whether we're in person or whether we're over screens from six feet apart in lawn chairs on our driveways, it works the same way. And what we find is that not only is this powerful and important in the moment, but this helps to solidify our relationships and our support systems over time. And so we know that, for example, Ella, if you and I are, let's say a year from now, telling a story about a moment that we laughed together, right? So that's condition one. In condition two, you and I are, again,

sitting over coffee together, recalling just a moment that was really positive. Doesn't have to do with laughter, but a really positive moment that was really positive, you know, doesn't have to do with laughter, but a really positive moment that we shared together. Well, statistically speaking, that first condition where we talked about a moment that we laughed together, we will later report being 23% more satisfied in our relationship, just because we recall these moments of laughter. So what happens is not only do these moments make us more resilient, make us feel better, they actually result in something similar in our brains to a runner's high. So we release oxytocin, endorphins, dopamine, but it also primes us for connection and stronger

relationships down the line. That's incredible, honestly. And it makes sense. I actually remember talking to someone before I went into labor last year, and they were saying, you know, do something fun at the beginning as like early labor starts to release the oxytocin, like watch a funny movie. And yeah, it worked. One of the other things you talk about in terms of behavioral research is unlocking creativity, which I was really interested in the link there and how humor allows us to kind of access, I guess, that part of our brain and that part of ourselves. So first, I want to applaud whoever told you to watch a funny clip before labor. There have been studies that laughing increases pain tolerance. I hadn't heard that specific use before, but I love it. And yeah,

so creativity, absolutely. And there are a couple of different things that are working in our favor here. When we laugh, our brains are more primed to see connections that we had previously missed. And so part of this is it sort of relaxes us, it loosens us up. But the other part is that laughter makes us feel more psychologically safe to share risky or unconventional ideas. So when we laugh, our brain suppresses the release of cortisol, which you could think of, it's a stress hormone, and it's also our fight or flight hormone.

And so when cortisol is high, it's really hard for us to access higher order thinking, which makes sense, right? If we're in a burning building, we don't need to be thinking creatively about what our strategy should be for the next quarter. We just need to be thinking really, really simply about where is the exit and how do I get there as quickly as possible. But what researchers have found is that when you have people watch comedy clips before trying to solve a creativity challenge, in this one study, they found that it made people more than twice as likely to get the creativity challenge right. And again, this is in part because it reduces cortisol, but in part because it sort

of relaxes us and unlocks this more creative and flexible mode of thinking. It's absolutely incredible that and I think it's one of those things and you talk about it and we'll come on to it later on, but about the fact that like, we always think we need to take things quite seriously. And, and in order for other people to take us seriously, but actually, there's such power in allowing ourselves to relax and the bonding that takes place through that. I mean, it makes so much sense, but it's really interesting when you start to get the science behind it. And why is it that we are so kind of afraid of this humour? Because I think you're right, there was one stat that completely terrified me, which was that the average four-year-old laughs as many as 300 times a day.

And in comparison, the average 40-year year old laughs 300 times every two and a half months. That sense of play is gone as we get older. And why are we doing that? Like, why are we afraid to kind of open up in that sense? Yeah, absolutely. It's a it's a shocking stat, isn't it makes you look at your your daughter differently as a role model in some ways. Totally. So yeah, I mean, as kids, we are programmed, we are hardwired to find joy in the world. And we find joy and delight everywhere we turn. And what happens is that as we grow up, we are in many ways conditioned out of our sense

of humor. So if you think about little kids, right, class clowns get detention. You know, we enter serious jobs, and we think that we need to take ourselves seriously all the time to do well. And, you know, what we find is that around age 23, people drop off a humor cliff. This is based on a global data set of 1.4 million people all over the world that when people are asked, did you smile or laugh a lot yesterday? You know, kids, definitely. Yes. Teenagers, definitely. Yes. You know, 18 year olds and in college still laughing and smiling a lot. And then right around 23, right when people enter

the workforce, this response plummets. People stop laughing. People stop thinking that humor is appropriate at work. And it has real detrimental effects on our health, on our well-being, on our ability to form meaningful connections with our colleagues. So obviously, we think this is a real false belief that you don't have to be serious all the time to be taken seriously. And in fact, when you refuse to take yourself so seriously, you can remove a lot of the barriers that are standing in the way of important work. And do you find that, you know, that need to look serious and appear serious and, and therefore become serious when we're at work then sort of spills out into our personal life because we just start behaving

in a certain way. And we do lose this kind of connection to joy and fun and a more lighthearted approach. Yeah, I do. I mean, we, we spend so much of our waking lives at work. And so inevitably, the mindset that we have there seeps into everywhere else. And I think this is a really important distinction to make actually is the distinction between levity, humor, and comedy. So we talk about how levity is a mindset. And that's really what we're trying to get people to practice is a mindset of being on the lookout for joy, walking around, navigating your life on the precipice of a smile, expecting to be delighted rather than disappointed. And this is something that anyone can practice doing. Anyone can practice going through an hour of their day

and picking out reasons that they might smile or reasons that they might be delighted. And what we find is that when people start practicing this, they find joy much more easily. So this is in part because of a psychological principle called the priming effect, which essentially says, quite simply, when your brain is primed to look for something, you are more likely to find it. And so when we are actively navigating our lives, looking for reasons to be delighted, we will find ourselves delighted much more often. And on the flip side, when we're navigating our professional lives, completely devoid of humor, looking for reasons to be serious and professional, and quite non frivolous, then we get in that habit as well. We go home, and we continue taking that mindset, you know, at home with our families. And it can really lead to this sort of rigidity

that's detrimental to us, especially when we come across harder times. Completely. And one thing I was very interested in, because when I was reading your book, this was something that really struck me, that I think people, and you talked about a link to a fear of failure. I think people have a kind of, sometimes I think if you're struggling with self-confidence or self-esteem and kind of putting yourself out there there's a fear of you know I'm not funny I'll say the wrong things I'm just not going to crack a joke I'm not going to kind of be the person that brings the joy and the laughter into the room because yeah I don't want to get it wrong I don't want to look like an idiot and do you feel like there is that link with self-confidence and a concern of getting it wrong?

Yeah, absolutely. So this is a really interesting area because we find that people get failure wrong when it comes to humor. That exactly as you said, we fear if we're not confident about our humor, especially we fear that if we say something that we think will be funny and it fails, it'll have hugely detrimental impact on other people's perceptions of us, on our own self-confidence. And actually that's not quite the case. So what a group of researchers at Harvard and Wharton, this is Brad Bitterly, Maury Schweitzer, and Alison Woodbrooks ran a series of experiments

over the last couple of years to understand how humor impacts others' perceptions of our status, competence, and confidence. And what they found was, as you might expect, if you make a joke and someone else laughs, then that person will view you as more confident, more competent, and higher in status. But what they also found, which is even more important in the topic you were just raising, and a lot of the fears that many of our students and executives

have is if you fail, if you try and make a joke, no one laughs, as long as that joke is viewed as appropriate, as long as you're not offending or going wildly out of bounds, then actually people's perceptions of your confidence will still increase and there will be no meaningful impact on perceptions of status. And what happens is when people view us as more confident, right? We are deeply intuitive creatures. We understand the outputs that people are putting towards us and we internalize those things. And so when people view us as more confident, it actually can boost our own self-confidence. So that's the first thing I'll say on that is, you know, we get failure wrong. And in particular, failed humor can still

have a positive impact on us. And the second thing I'll say here, and this is one of our four humor myths. First is the failure myth. And then the other is the idea that it's about being funny. That in order to have the benefits of humor and levity in work or in life, you have to be the funny one. And in fact, there are tremendous benefits that just come from signaling that you have a sense of humor, right? Starting with a smile, that's often enough to move the needle, to warm up a room, to make other people feel more comfortable and confident using their own senses of humor, which then shifts the dynamic and can really change your own psychology and change whoever's psychology you're with.

So in a way, it's less about viewing it as becoming like incredibly funny in yourself and more about just learning to be open to the humor and to the levity and to just not take life as seriously as we take it these days. Yeah, absolutely. It's being more generous with laughter. And it's looking for reasons to smile rather than reasons to scowl. And one of the things that I was really curious about, you said you studied, I think it was over 1.5 million people across 166 countries, which is astonishing with the goal of understanding how and why humor works or or of course doesn't and how it sort of differs across a lifespan across different cultures and the nuanced relationships between humor and status and what's unfunny and then what then becomes funny and I wondered if there were any key findings like does humor really change across the world like are there some things we find funny when we're young or

when we're old and that really change or is there a universal collectiveness in it? So we do find that there are four distinct styles of humor. And these four humor styles show up across geographies, across age, across demographics. And those four styles are the magnet, the sniper, the sweetheart, and the standup. And actually, I would be very curious what you think you are. So maybe I'll give a really quick overview. Okay, you can tell me what you think you are. Okay. So magnet, those are outgoing, charismatic, tend to be more sort of goofy, or they use a lot of body movement and a lot of facial expressions with their humor, tend to be very sort of bonding in their style of humor. That's the magnet. We have the sniper, which is sort of the opposite side

of the spectrum, understated, often flies under the radar, a sharp quip or one liner, not afraid to ruffle feathers to get a laugh, a little bit dry and deadpan. Then you've got your sweetheart, which similar to the sniper is a little bit more introverted, but very bonding in their humor. So they'll only use humor that makes someone feel good or that connects someone. They'll often make the target of their humor a shared pain or a shared reality that everyone can relate to. And again, pretty understated. And then the last one is the stand up. So stand ups are really, those are like the roasters. Again, very outgoing, not afraid to tear you down in front of a crowd to get a laugh. They actually view teasing as a

bonding form of humor, which can be alienating to others, but that's definitely something that they're more inclined towards. And again, like their sniper counterpart, they are not afraid to ruffle feathers to get a laugh. So with those four, what do you think you are? I think I would have to definitely be number three. And I would say my husband was a hundred percent number one, the magnet. He's definitely the one that like, and I remember when we met like him and his dad would literally, every time they were together, they would just be laughing for hours and hours. And it was one of my favorite things about them because it just made you feel so good like no matter what was going on they had a joke and I remember something you talk about in the book as well like even his his mother passed away

two years ago from brain cancer and I remember sitting in the hospital the year before that when she was diagnosed and obviously it was like the most traumatic stressful emotional time understanding where we were at and what the diagnosis was but his dad kept cracking these jokes and everyone you know his sister and him and I were just laughing so much and it was just unbelievable what it brought to the situation and I'd never really met anyone who was able to look at life in that way. And I have to say from personal experience, it gave me such an appreciation of what humor can do to bond people and to change your mindset. And I know that's something that you talked about, that because it keeps our cortisol levels in check, it can truly bolster our emotional resilience, which is incredible.

That's beautiful. I love that. Wow. There's a powerful link too between humor and memory. And so we tend to remember our lives as a series of snapshots, not as a roll of film. And what we find is that in these heightened emotional moments, whether they're moments of joy or moments of real hardship and tragedy, these heightened emotional moments are the ones that we remember. And we, in many ways, have the power to color them. I remember reading, what matters in life is not what happens to you, but how you remember it. And so, you know, I remember when I was little, my dad was very sick for a number of years when I was growing up, and he's fine now. Thank goodness. But there was one Christmas where he was pretty sick, and he couldn't go downstairs, which is normally where we kept our Christmas tree.

And so we didn't have a Christmas tree that year. And that was fine. You know, we were, my sister and I were ready to not have presents and there were bigger fish to fry at the moment. Things were pretty hard with what was going on in my family. And so we woke up on Christmas morning, you know, my sister and I, we always slept in the same bed together the night before Christmas because it was just too exciting. So we slept in the same bed. We woke up and walked down into the living room and we found that my parents had decorated my dad's IV pole like a Christmas tree. You know, there was tinsel everywhere and there were lights and my dad was wearing the tree skirt around his stomach, you know, as he was lying down and we just were crying, laughing. I mean, it was just this moment of pure joy amidst what was a really, really hard time,

you know, and it's those moments, it's those moments of us relentlessly finding humor and joy. And this is really my parents really relentlessly finding humor and joy amidst those hard times that, you know, that helped us get through them and helped us bond as a family, but also just, just get through what was some really, really challenging times. I mean, that's incredible. Honestly, I had the biggest smile on my face while you were saying that. No, I couldn't agree more because you got to get through them. So any way to make it a little bit easier seems incredible. And I know you said there's also, you know, just on the every day as well,

the last kind of serious, for want of a better word, moments, but just like the daily stress, like workplace stress, you feel by like long hours and bad balance between work and life. And I think you said it contributes to at least 120,000 deaths every year. And it counts for 190 billion in healthcare costs. And this is what I find so fascinating about things like what we're talking about today. And we did a very interesting podcast a couple of weeks ago about happiness. And it was the same conversation that we- I know. I love, by the way, I loved that podcast. We sent it out

to our students. Oh, I'm so- It was fabulous. Yeah. Oh, thank you. But I just think that we don't take these topics seriously enough. We see them as like frivolous Yeah. Oh, thank you. I just think that we don't take these topics seriously enough. We see them as like frivolous, I think, as you said earlier, and we don't, we don't kind of put gravity on them. We think we need to go to school and we need to study chemistry and biology and, you know, be, as you said, kind of be really serious. And actually then these, these things are having such a humongous impact, both on our health, but therefore as a result also on our economy. And it just feels like we need to start to understand, for example, the link to stress and what we can do to change that, to change our lives, because ultimately we will be happier. That's going to have a positive impact on those around us economically. Like it is actually,

it sounds like it's not serious, but it feels like it actually is serious to some extent that we need, like we actually need these in our lives. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, one of my favorite research studies, if you can say you have favorite research studies, which I'll say you can, was this 15 year longitudinal study done by Norwegian researchers. And what they found in a study of more than 50,000 people over the course of 15 years was that both women and men with a strong sense of humor lived longer, even in spite of illness and infection. So, you know, women who scored high in humor had a 73% lower risk of death from heart disease.

You know, men had a 74% lower risk of death from heart disease. You know, men had a 74% lower chance of death from infection. And you think that maybe this is, as you said, this is something frivolous, but in fact, there are physiological benefits that laughter gives us increases blood flow, muscle relaxation, you know, studies have found that it reduces arterial wall stiffness. So I mean, this is physiologically, this is an incredibly powerful tool that we have to counter some of those impacts of workplace stress. who make humor a part of their everyday lives, that they treat it like a skill that can be taught. They treat it like a mindset that they can improve, right? Think about it like exercise. You know if you don't exercise for a week how that makes your body feel.

And yet we don't necessarily think about what happens to our psychology when we don't laugh for a week. And what researchers have found over this, they actually did an eight-week program where each week students had to participate in a one-hour learning module around things like becoming less serious and cultivating a more playful attitude or developing a more hearty and healthy belly laugh, right? So every week for eight weeks, they had this one hour long module

that you would think like, huh, that seems odd. Why do I need to develop a belly laugh? But what they found was that at the end of these eight weeks, those who were in the humor skills group versus other skills group reported fewer instances of depression,

lower stress, a higher proportion of positive to negative feelings, and even increased perceptions of control over their lives. So it's really, I mean, physiologically and psychologically, humor is incredibly powerful for people. It's unbelievable. And I think everyone feels too much stress in the modern day. And I just think this is exactly what we need. I mean, the stat that blew me away the most in the book was that there was a study, I think you mentioned by researchers, you found that women undergoing fertility treatment was 16% more likely to get pregnant when entertained by a clown dressed as a chef, which is, it's

extraordinary. It is extraordinary. You also kind of want to meet those researchers, right? A hundred percent. And I want to see the chef clown. Right, exactly. Who does, who is like, I know the perfect research experiment. We'll dress up a chef as a clown and we'll have that, you know, clown entertain a pregnant woman and we'll see what happens. I mean, it's just, it's ludicrous, but it's, it is true. It's so powerful. It's, it's absolutely unbelievable. And I think for everyone listening that they're going to be thinking the same. They're going to be like,

look, yeah, my life is too stressful. I need to take life less seriously. I need to, I need to have more fun. I need to be more open to fun and to humor. And if you had any kind of top learnings, like how do we start to shift that attitude? How do we be more open to this, to having more fun, to laughing? And it's not that you can't go have a serious career or have a serious conversation, but how do you just bring a lightheartedness and a less serious attitude to the world? Yeah. Well, one really practical thing that I would recommend is keeping a levity list. So for 10 days, at the end of each day, write down three moments of humor. So they can be little things that you noticed, a street sign that was a little bit weird or funny. The other

day I was driving down the road and I saw on the right hand side of the road, I saw a chapel that had a wedding sign, like, you know, Mary and John are getting married today. And then right next door was a sign for a divorce lawyer. You know, just these little oddities or incongruities in the world that you can look for. Or a moment that you shared with your husband where he and his dad were laughing and you just found it to be so funny or your daughter does something totally ridiculous. Just at the end of each day for 10 days, jot down three funny moments from that day. And what we find and what our students find is that

at first it can be kind of hard to do this because we're not programmed to see that those colors in the world. You know, we see all these other kinds of colors, but we don't see the colors of humor. And so what does it look like to actually be on the lookout for those things? But what we find is that by the end of 10 days, people are writing down five things, they're writing down seven things. At 10am, they're grabbing their notebook because the funny thing happened outside and they're sort of overflowing with what these funny things are. And again, it's not that people are changing necessarily what's happening in the world

around them. Instead, they're just changing their view of it. Mel Brooks says, life literally abounds in comedy if you just look around you. So that would be one thing. And then even better than that, you get a buddy and you share those things with a buddy. So laughter is unique. Psychologists say that it has high emotional contagion. So laughter is literally contagious. So the second best thing is to not only write down those three things, but share them with a buddy and tell stories about them. It feels a bit like one of the things that I feel like became very popular for the exact same reason is a gratitude list. And we said the same thing, you know,

it's hard when you start but then suddenly that's as you said it's a kind of primer your brain starts to think like that and look out for like yes ding ding ding positive positive positive and I can see totally it's the same concept here like you'd start with it might feel a bit awkward and a bit difficult but then suddenly you start to see the world in a different way absolutely and. And it's exactly what you said about, you know, this is a, it's something that we can train our brains to do, right? Similar to how, to the happiness conversation that you had a few weeks ago, it's, we don't think of humor and joy and levity as something that we can train into our lives, right? We think of it as these serendipitous,

beautiful moments that we have that we remember, but they're sort of magical and mystical. And the reality is we can train our brains to find more of them, to create more of them. And it's just, it's a choice. It's choosing to navigate your life, looking for reasons to be delighted on the precipice of a smile, you know, choosing to call a friend and tell a story of a moment of shared laughter, you know, or choosing to, if you have a challenging or difficult moment, choosing to try and find some little semblance of joy that you can infuse into it. Completely. I mean, I couldn't agree more.

I think you're so right. And I've so appreciated everything you've shared today. It's just absolutely brilliant. I love that you're teaching a class at Stanford, you know, on humor. It just shows it matters. And we've got to take these things more lightly and more seriously at the same time. And I just love it. And I really recommend the book to everyone. It's called Humor Seriously. And it's just absolutely brilliant. I'll put all the details in the show notes below. But Naomi, thank you so much for your time today. It's been just so insightful. I'm definitely off home to watch a funny movie. I'll definitely something funny on before my next labor and get that oxytocin flowing. And yeah,

just so appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you. And thank oxytocin flowing. And yeah, just so appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you. And thank you for what you do. I just, you, you are wonderful. You're doing such important work in the world and bringing a lot of joy to a lot of people. So it is a delight. And, um, and thank you so much for having me on. Biggest pleasure. And we will be back again next Tuesday. I hope you've enjoyed it. Go laugh, go have a brilliant fun happy day and thanks so much bye you're a podcast listener and this is a podcast ad heard only in canada reach great canadian

listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from lisyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn Ads. Email bob at libsyn.com to learn more. That's b-o-b at l-i-b-s-y-n dot com.