The Wellness Scoop - How to beat stress, build resilience and the lowdown on collagen with Dr Sam Akbar

Episode Date: September 13, 2022

I’m joined by clinical psychologist, trauma expert and author, Dr Sam Akbar. From understanding how your brain works and challenging your thought-processes to having more self-compassion, Sam’s work centres around providing sensitive and realistic guidance and tools to feel calmer, less stressed, and more resilient to life challenges. We discuss: How to find psychological flourishing Why your thoughts are not the boss of you How to change your relationship with your thoughts Exercises to cultivate self-awareness How to beat stress & build resilience The importance of living life in line your values Each week I unpack a wellness trend with GP Gemma Newman. This week on Fact or Fad we’re looking at collagen supplements.   More about Sam:   ‘Stressilient: How to Build Stree and Build Resilience’ https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0008448043/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_dl_AF3DXW7323ERQZ4G7XN7 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. Wellness. What on earth does it mean? And why would we need to unpack it? With over 58 million hashtags on Instagram, the topic has really never been more prominent. But, and there is a but here, three in five of us feel that wellness

is incredibly confusing. We want to feel healthier, we want to feel happier, but we have no idea what's clickbait and what's genuinely health enhancing, who's an expert and who's peddling absolute nonsense. And look, I am right here with you on this. At times, I've also found this world really hard to navigate. So welcome to Wellness Unpacked, our new podcast hosted by me, Ella Mills, author author entrepreneur and founder of Deliciously Ella. This series aims to do just as it states unpack the world of wellness with expert guests. These guests will be sharing with me and with you their three pieces of advice for a better life, to feel healthier and happier. This is a show and a conversation that's about progress. It is not about perfection.

It's about helping you make small, simple, sustainable changes. And within that, I'm going to be testing out a different wellness trend every single week. Intermittent fasting, celery juice, collagen, ketogenic diets, CBD, you name it, I'll try it. I'll then unpick the trend separating fact from fad with my friend and NHS GP Dr Gemma Newman and together we'll be equipping you with the tools that can genuinely make a difference to your life and well-'ll be equipping you with the tools that can genuinely make a difference to your life and well-being and equally helping you potentially put to one side the trends that may make a little bit less difference. So are you ready for episode six? Our sixth guest on Wellness Unpacked is clinical psychologist Dr. Sam Akbar. Sam is a trauma specialist and her work focuses on treating refugees with PTSD

who've survived things like war or sexual abuse. But Sam has also written and researched extensively the topic of stress, why we feel it from an evolutionary perspective, and crucially for most of us listening how we can become more stress resilient because let's be honest stress is a natural part of life today Dr. Akbar's three piece of advice center around taking control of that stress understanding that our thoughts are not the boss of us and that no feeling lasts forever. We also touch on values and why identifying those values, who you are, what you stand for, can help with what Sam describes

as psychological flourishing, which might be my new favourite expression. There are also a few exercises in this episode which you can do along with us, which I hope you find as helpful as I do. So feel free to pause the episode at any time and join in. Hi, Sam, and thank you so much for joining me today. I'm absolutely delighted to be here. Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure. I absolutely love your work, loved the book. And I just, yeah, have a sense that everything you're going to say today is going to resonate very, very deeply with our listeners and all the things that they would love to know in their life. But I wondered before we get started, can we start

with the question that we ask all our guests, which is what does wellness mean to you? How do you define that word? Okay. So I feel like we know all the things, or at least most of us know all the things about diet or exercise or sleeping well. But what I felt I wanted to add to that into the sphere of wellness is the idea of kind of psychological flourishing and understanding how your brain works, how we've evolved to think. So you're working with what you've got so you can understand yourself better, how you think, how you feel. And then if you can understand that, you can be much more authentic with yourself and the choices that you make. So it's really about wellness to me is really about navigating your internal world much more effectively. I absolutely love that because I think so often with this industry, with this narrative, we look so much at the external, you know, and all these external

tools that will make our lives what we want it to be. And so often we kind of disregard actually that more internal working, which I think from everything, certainly I've learned over the last 10 years from all the experts I've got to speak to in my own personal journey is that actually like fundamentally that's what makes you happy and by being happy that makes you kind of healthier and feel better and it's harder to navigate your internal world because it's messy and sticky and has the past in it and your concerns about the future and it feels overwhelming doesn't it when you think about. And we aren't taught any of those skills. We're sort of just thought, kind of be positive, don't think negative thoughts. And actually, when you realize how you're built and you can really learn to, like I say,

navigate that more effectively, you have so many more choices available to you. And the one thing I really think is with a lot of wellness things it's well I'll eat better I'll do this practice but actually there's a step before that which is understanding what your brain or your mind will say to you when you try and do anything new it's going to hijack you yeah yeah it's interesting a few weeks ago we were speaking to another expert shrew and that's was such a big part of her message as well, which is that fundamentally, we often want to make these changes, but these changes are impossible to make if we don't have that positive relationship with ourself. As you said, you've got to take a step back to take a step forward.

Absolutely. And who teaches us to do that? You're going to do that today? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay, good point. Okay, so that actually leads us on so perfectly that couldn't have worked out better to your first piece of advice. I love the framing of these three pieces of advice of psychological flourishing. I think it is just such a really inspiring way to look at it. So we're thinking about that first piece of advice to find your psychological flourishing. What would that look like?

Okay, so the first thing and the first step for me would be to understand that your thoughts are not the boss of you. And I really remember the moment when I kind of learned about this. I was on a plane on the way to Trinidad for a last holiday before having my daughter. And I was reading a book about our relationship with our thoughts. And I suddenly read the sentence that said, you know, you can change your relationship with your thoughts. You don't have to challenge them. So you're not your thoughts. And I almost stood up in the plane and went, do you all know this? Do you all know this? Because it's news to me because we're so, I don't know about you, but I feel like I'm in my head a lot of the time. I'm a horrible, horrible overthinker.

Me too. Yeah, it's like my hobby. I really want to say it's running marathons, but it's not. It's just overthinking. And I felt like that was a real revelation that I didn't have to outrun my mind. I could just change my relationship with it. And so understanding that you do not have to do what your mind tells you all the time is a massive, massive release and really liberating. I totally agree. And I totally resonate as a

chronic overthinker myself. I think anyone listening would say, I hear you, I think you're right, that really resonates. But how do you do it? So there are lots of different ways. So it's not about the content of the thought, okay. So a lot of kind of traditional cognitive behavioral therapy, which my book is based, is about challenging thoughts. And that, if that works for you, that's fine. But I really prefer another way of looking at it, which is you change your relationship with your thoughts. So you need to just see your thoughts as thoughts. So if you want to try and exercise with me now, if you're up for that. 100%. Okay. So Ella, I want you to get yourself a thought that really, really kind of gets to you. So a self-judgment. Yeah. So, you know, for a lot of us, it's going to be, I'm unsuccessful.

I'm a failure. I'm fat. I'm worthless. We've all got it, right? And I think the key thing, that's part of being human. For sure. Do you want to know what mine is? Go on, please.

Is that part of the exercise? Yeah, go on. If you're willing to say. Oh, yeah, I'm an open book. Being a good therapist, checking in. I'm an overthinker and an oversharer by nature. Okay. So mine at the moment is definitely feeling guilty for not spending enough time with my children.

Okay. So that's getting to you. So if you had to distill that down, what would it be? Would it be I'm a bad mum? I'm not giving them what they want. And that makes me feel guilty. Okay. So distill it further.

If you could give it just I'm one word, what would you go for? What does it distill down to for you? I think you could just really distill it down to I'm failing in that regard for them. Okay. So I'm failing in that regard. Okay. So I'm failing in that regard. Okay. So I want you to really, and if it helps you to close your eyes, for a few seconds, I want you to really, really bring up that thought, I'm failing. I'm failing in that regard. And bring up the images that come with them of you not being there with them.

And really kind of like get it up in your grill. Do you feel it? Yeah. Yeah, okay, so it feels quite raw. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's quite visceral for you. Okay, so just notice how intense that feels, that thought. And now I just want you to say, just see what happens if you say to yourself, instead of I'm failing them, I'm having the thought I'm failing them. I'm just having the thought I'm failing them.

What does that do? I think it lets you take one step back. Because you suddenly, I guess you question the thought a little bit and it stops being quite so definitive. And I guess you could see it maybe in more context. Yeah. So you feel like you've got a bit of distance. So there's a bit of distance between you, the thinker, and the thought.

Okay. If you want to go to Jedi levels, right, try, I'm noticing I'm having the thought I'm failing in that regard. What happens now? Just a lot more forgiving, isn't it? You feel everything just feels a lot softer. Yeah. So it's not about whether that's true or not, right? We're not getting into. But I came home early yesterday and I was there all weekend

because your brain's always going to outrun you with, oh, but you didn't do this, but you didn't do that, but you didn't do this, especially if you're feeling kind of a bit sensitive and raw about it. But when you can take a step back from that, you can think, okay, I'm not so caught up in that thought. What can I do now that's in line with my values? It might be that you show yourself some self-compassion.

It might be that you say, no, actually, I want to change something. I do want to spend more time with them. I feel that that isn't right. Or actually, I see that that's my brain giving me a kicking. It's the thing I really care about. Yeah, it's the thing you really care about that your brain will go for, your mind will go for. So maybe I could just take a step back and think, what do I do now? What's it like for you when you're really caught up in that thought? Yeah, you get a negative spiral, spiral don't you and you said you kind of lose that context and the ability to look at it almost in a rational way. So exactly you're caught up with it and when you're caught up with it and you're really in it are you being

the kind of parent you want to be? No and it's no one's benefiting from it. I hope for people listening they've maybe done this exercise with us and are resonating with this, the way in which our brains can act and taking a step back. But I really want to understand why do our brains have this need to go to the negative as opposed to sometimes seeing these thoughts within the context to which they exist and the fact that they're often not actually the reality? Well, the bad news is that we are given over to more negative thoughts and noticing negative things because of how we're evolved. So it makes sense to spot potential danger. It's how we survived. So we didn't survive by being all like chilled out and like having a really good time and sitting outside our caves lying down with a cocktail we'd be dead so what we've evolved to do is to be pretty hyper vigilant

for things now what happens in modern society is you know we're not on the lookout for wolves or bears or whatever's roaming around trying to kill us. We are worried about, are we like other people? Are we fitting in with the group? Are we going to be rejected by the group? What if I'm failing? Because if I'm failing, I'm not going to survive. And inside of you, that means you're going to die. Now you're sort of running this quite old hardware in your brain that's making you

look for the negative because it had an advantage at one point. What's happening now is we're not in danger of being eaten, one hopes, but we have a sort of new threat which are, am I successful enough? Am I fitting into the group? Am I achieving enough? And I'm sure we'll come on to success later and the issues around that. But we're sort of programmed to look for that. When you feel that you're not fitting into that, you get anxious or tense about it.

And that's where stress can come in. So whilst it was helpful at one time to be like this it's slightly less helpful now and that's and so we're geared to be like that but it's good to know that because again one of my big passions and one of the reasons I want to do this podcast is to help people understand that it's not them failing or them not having willpower or them not having follow-through it's understanding like our natural physiology and so understanding it's really normal to think this way it's very normal to overthink it's very normal to catastrophize it's very normal to have these anxious thoughts you're not strange you're not doing it wrong I think that really speaks to your piece of advice which is that don't

let that define you a it's normal but b if you understand it and notice it, then we have a greater chance at potentially redefining it. 100%. I feel like that is the single most useful thing I could have learned in my 20s. So I remember thinking, why am I not happy all the time? What is wrong with me? And actually, we're not supposed to be happy all the time, what is wrong with me? And actually, we're not supposed to be happy all the time. And I really struggle with this because I'd hate for your listeners to think I'm sitting around being zen and I've got it all right. I am screwing it up all over the place, all over my life. But that is normal. Just because I know it doesn't mean I practice it perfectly all the time. But I understand what's happening in my mind or why my mind is behaving in a certain way.

And once you know that, it's so much easier. It's like when you've got a bit of an old computer and you're like, I know it doesn't run as well as it could sometimes. So I'm just going to be a little patient with it. If I had known that 20 years ago, I feel like life could have been a lot easier. Sam, I think that actually leads us really perfectly onto your second piece of advice. Could you tell us a little bit more about that? Okay, so there's a quote by the poet Rilke that actually I wish I'd put in the book because I tell myself this all the time,

which is no feeling is final. Again, news I could have used when I was 25 because I used to feel like, my gosh, these sort of feelings of anxiety or sadness would last forever. And actually, a really, really useful thing is to know that everything ebbs and flows, positive feelings as well. But to know that you can go up and down through that, anxiety, anger, sadness, joy, frustration, whatever emotion you are feeling will come and go. And again, I think that is quite a liberating thing to know because when you're sitting in it or you're in the valley yeah you just see yourself at the bottom of the valley but actually don't know that there's a there are peaks and troughs yet to come it's honestly been my biggest learning from the last 10 years or so this fact that and you just never know what's coming when but that it is such an extraordinary cycle and you can go

from the kind of darkest of days to the best days in quite quick succession um I guess there's two parts to that question one how do you continue to remind yourself of that when you're in I think especially when you're sitting more with the negative emotions um but I guess also with the positive emotions so that you kind of keep a sense of groundedness to an extent but I guess more than that how do you support yourself to have the resilience to kind of chop and change between the ebbs and flows because that's not that easy either no and it's and it's exhausting isn't it to sort of be going between things so intensely. There's a metaphor that I really like that I often remind myself of. So first of all, I go around muttering to myself, no feeling is final, no feeling is final.

I find that helps. And it is just actually one of the things I think has really helped is the noticing that this is what happens. This is normal. It goes up, it goes down, um, and trying to pull back and take some perspective on it. And honestly, I can reassure your listeners. I am someone who gets very caught up in my feelings and my thoughts. So it's a real journey for me as well that I have to go on, but being able to just notice that is the first stage in anything. So just noticing I'm having this feeling of sadness. Where do I feel it in my body? But one exercise I really,

really like, it's a perspective taking exercise. And it's thinking about yourself as the sky, right? Bear with me. It's not as weird as it sounds. But when you experience emotions, if you think about yourself as the sky, think about your emotions as the weather. And sometimes the weather is beautiful, and it's sunny, and it's clement. And sometimes it's a bit rainy and overcast. And sometimes there's a massive, massive storm and there's lightning and thunder and noise. Whatever happens with the weather, the sky is not harmed by the weather. The sky can contain the weather. There's a part of you that isn't your feelings, yes? I know that sounds a bit kind of meta, but you can observe them. You can make room for them.

You can contain them. They will not overwhelm you. And just being able to think of that in that way, I find really helpful because it allows you to say, I can make room for this. Not that I have to push it away. Not that I have to suppress it. Not that I have to drink my way out of it or distract my way out of it. I can let it be, but it can't hurt me. So within that, thinking about the need to actually genuinely understand it and not run away from it, so you can realize it doesn't last forever, but you do have to realize what it is first. Absolutely. So I talk about caging feelings in the book. So controlling, avoiding, getting rid of or eliminating feelings, you're caging them. All of them are ultimately unhelpful. We can do them in the short term, but ultimately they become

unhelpful. Instead, what would happen if you didn't put all your energy into getting rid of the stuff you don't want, but you made room for it, right? That doesn't mean you have to like it, but if you make room for it and you notice it, then you're free to do other things because you're not busy fighting your emotions. You're free to do more useful things with your time that really matter to you. Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. So if we could maybe spend a bit of time thinking about some of the feelings that people really fixate on. And I know stress is obviously one of those feelings and something that you are such an expert in. How do we take that as an example of a feeling that we could manage, observe, appreciate, but also

move on from? Well, I guess it's a good question as to whether stress is actually a feeling. There are, what I would say is stress is a constellation of things. It's a feeling of probably anxiety, anger, frustration. But also there'll be some beliefs around that, that I can't cope with this. And therefore I'm getting overwhelmed. So how do people best deal with that? Well, I think first of all, it's about noticing those things. Because rather than thinking about moving on from a feeling think about letting it flow through you what would happen if you just let it flow through you and let it be there and it might move on with you and it might not so but are you willing to take it long for the ride now the

handy side effect of taking this approach is often the feeling goes away. But we shouldn't have that as a, and of course we want that, but we shouldn't have that as our end goal. The end goal, and what I think resilience really is, is being able to live by your values. And sometimes that's going to be quite stressful. And sometimes that's going to be quite sad. So one of your values might be being caring, and maybe that's going to be about looking after a parent with Alzheimer's. That's probably not going to be the most fun in the world, but it's really important to you, for example. So thinking about stress as something that is, rather than a feeling, maybe it's feelings plus thoughts plus physiology and a belief that you can't cope with that or you're overwhelmed I just really want to pick up on something you said there Sam because

this is my second obsession if my first is that it's not all about willpower my second is that feeling really good in yourself is not easy is that what you said there is say you were looking after a parent with Alzheimer's that's not going to be easy but that's something that's incredibly important to you and I just wanted to kind of hone in on that a little bit further in the sense of that feelings don't last forever that you're not your feelings but that it's okay that sometimes our feelings are really negative and stressed and kind of overwhelmed and wondering whether you can cope. And it's okay to sit there and it doesn't, just reaffirming the fact that it doesn't all have to be perfect and good

and focus of joy and positivity, but actually our long-term well-being and sense of happiness and being truly fulfilled in our lives sometimes comes with being in the more challenging emotions. A hundred percent. And maybe the way to think about this is often we think about wellness or well-being. It gets conflated with pleasure. And actually, I'm all for pleasure. I love it. But if we can't have it all the time,

I was having lunch with a friend the other day and he said, well, it can't all be rainbows and puppies. And I was like, why not? I really want it to be rainbows and puppies all the time. Of course we do. We want it to all be nice all the time. But actually, the reality is, if we care about anything or there's anything that's important to us, it can't be because the flip side of all of those things is you might lose them. We might lose our jobs, our partners, we might lose our health. If you care about things, there's always the risk of losing them. In the book, I call them, it's like having hedgehogs, you've got to have the prickly bit to get the soft underbelly as well. But I agree, I think there's something about you do what's important to you. It isn't always easy and it's not always pleasurable and happy as in the state of I feel happy like I feel happy when I go on roller coasters. that because and I am given in personality to wanting those things but my job is treating refugees with post-traumatic stress disorder who've been tortured now I'm not doing that

because it's great fun I love my work it's an enormous privilege but I do it because it's really important to me to help and to stand up for human rights and women's rights. It is really, really important to me. And sometimes that is incredibly hard. It can wear you down sometimes. But I don't want to ever do anything else. But that is, it's not a feeling of pleasure, but it's something really much deeper than that. It's like purpose or meaning. And I think those are the things that actually really motivate you. As you were saying, willpower, meh. It's knowing what really matters to you deep in your heart that is the most motivating thing.

It allows you to flourish psychologically. Yeah, absolutely. Because you've got a why. Yeah, no, I subscribe to that 1000 million percent. That's kind of my life very much for that. Literally, again, segues so perfectly onto your third piece of advice. You're a podcast listener, and this is a podcast ad heard only in Canada. Reach great Canadian listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn Ads. Email bob at libsyn.com to learn more. That's b-o-b at l-i-b-s-y-n dot com.

Okay, so my third piece of advice is know your values, know your why. So as I alluded to sort of when I kind of began to know about this way of working many years ago, I suddenly thought, well, oh my God, if I am not my thoughts and feelings, then what am I? You know, what guides me if I'm not just the mercy of my brain being totally random all the time? And actually, what guides us or what is a beautiful guide in life are your values, what you want to stand for in this world. And we don't often ask ourselves those quite deep questions or feel like we have time to really think about not just what do I want to achieve? And there's nothing wrong with that. I care about whether my book does well. I care about whether I do well at work. We're also programmed to want to achieve, and that's fine, but hold it lightly. What if we can also think about

what do I want to stand for in this life? How do I want to treat other people? How do I want to treat myself? How do I want to treat the planet? That is a really nice way to guide you into what matters to you. So if you start to think about really unpacking and clarifying those personal values, I'm sure everyone listening is thinking, well, I'd like to be kind, I'd like to be remembered as a really thoughtful person, I'd like people to think of me as generous. You know, these, to be totally frank, these quite general sweeping statements of niceties, how do you actually sit down and realize what are the values that truly make me tick? Because those are going to be

different for all of us. And what are the values that really give me that sense of fulfillment, of purpose, that my life has real meaning to it? So another exercise? Why not? Why not? I really set myself up for it, to be honest. Okay, so yeah, absolutely. So I've got a few in the book that I really like, but I really often come back to this one because I think it's a really powerful one. So this is about imagining your own funeral, which isn't as grim as it sounds, but actually quite life-affirming. So imagine that you've reached a ripe old age and it's your funeral and you can look down and see what's going on. Imagine that there are three people who get up to speak from different areas of your life. So it might be someone from your family, a friend and a colleague, but try to find different spheres of your life

represented. And really bring to mind what they would say. If they were talking about your life from now to when you die, what would you like them to say about you? What would you want them to remember? And if you really, really want to go into it, which I would encourage you to do. What words do they use to describe you? What are the stories that they would tell about you? And that's a really powerful way to think about how you want to be remembered and what matters to you. Because no one I've ever done this exercise with says, my best friend got up and said, I had a really nice house with lovely parquet floors and designer paint. All the things that we're busy thinking about or stuff,

no one ever talks about the stuff you have. They talk about the times when you were there for them or when you showed your humanity or when you made them laugh. What do those words tell you about what your values are? Very, very powerful exercise. I really am sure everyone listening is thinking the exact same. So if we do this exercise and you have those few really key points that you'd like people to remember you for you know think about it for me honestly the first thing this brings to mind after being incredibly

present for my family my family most important thing in the world to me by a million miles which is why my brain I think it's always yeah playing tricks on me as per our first exercise is I made a meaningful difference that that is the thing that matters to me most in the world other than that that truly helped people to feel better in their lives that is the most important thing but for people listening and they've done this exercise too again how do you go about taking those sense of values that sense of purpose in your life and actually translate it into your day-to-day because as you said I think for everybody those qualities that they'll be thinking about weren't had these really really nice shoes or um this really fancy coat or

you said the parquet floors it's very unlikely it might be that you're a very generous host and really warm and and gave your friends a lovely time but it wouldn't be about the specific material things involved in that. But our lives are so busy. And I think for most people, it's almost like you're in a constant sort of tumble dryer cycle. You know, the days start and they go and they go and they go. And it's almost like it's so easy to get swept up in the materialistic or kind of more transactional elements.

And those really core parts of your values can sometimes get swallowed in a lack of time, I think. How do you translate them into real life? Well, first of all, I wouldn't want anyone to beat themselves up for thinking, I want to have nice shoes or I like to have nice things. There's nothing wrong with that at all. But I suppose it's about sometimes looking a little deeper than that so I guess I'm always wary of we often take a binary position which is oh I shouldn't um I was listening to that podcast and oh my god I shouldn't want more material things I must be uh thinking about my values all the time we can hold these things together, right? And actually, that's the skill

of being, of psychologically flourishing often, I think, is holding lots of these things together, not using one new thing to become a stick with which to beat yourself with, because often that's what happens. So first of all, I'd just say, you know, of course, you're stuck in the tumble dryer cycle. It's busy. It's hard. Everything's expensive. You're worried about money. You're worried about your kids. You're worried about your future.

You're worried about your parents. Where do I find the time? What I love about values is it can be the teeniest, tiniest thing that you do. If something like creativity is really important for you, you could get off this podcast and write in a journal for a minute or draw a small picture. It doesn't have to be life changing and it won't be. People look often for, and this is where I see them fall off their intentions all the time, the goals are too big. Set very small achievable goals.

So if you value that, do a little bit each day is much better than trying to go, I'm going to be Picasso by next Tuesday afternoon. You know, it won't happen. It's tiny little things, increments build. If you want to be kind, you could go into the office today and make an effort to speak to a colleague, maybe you don't know very well, and ask them how their evening was yesterday. Or you could be nice to the stranger in the coffee shop. It's open to you to act on those values all the time. And you don't have to choose the nice ones where you're kind and caring and honest. You know, ultimately, you can try different ones, right? You can try them on like new fashion trends and see what fits for you.

It's a process of exploration. There's an exercise I really like in the book, which is secret values. Choose a value and act on it secretly. Yeah. And don't tell anyone and see if that fits for you, because then it gets you off the order. Other people think this is I'm being kind or caring. What do you want to be? Maybe you don't value honesty. All right. You don't value it. That's fine. Try something that you do. But the point is, because it's a way of being, it's a verb rather than a state that you're in. It's always open to you to do that action. And that's what I really like about values even the smallest thing is you acting

on it I love that and as you said it can be such small things doesn't need to be these kind of massive moments you know I love the analogy they're not going to be Picasso next Tuesday I think that's phenomenal and within, understanding your values and trying to live by them moment by moment, do you feel like this kind of, not just on an individual level, but on a kind of collective societal level, redefining success, you did touch on it earlier, is an important part of really knowing your values? Yes, I think it's, so how do we define success as a society? Well, probably, I think

we're more open to different ways of doing it. And, you know, I don't want to be a fraud. I, as I said before, I care about success in the traditional ways that other people care about. Would I be happy if no one read my book? Of course I wouldn't. You know, I want success in certain ways and that's fine. So again, it's, I think you can have both, but hold it all lightly. That's like, I think my takeaway thing is holding lots of these things lightly. And what if we redefine success, not just as the stuff that we get or the jobs that we have, have those by all means. But what if you redefined it as, I live by my values. I was authentic as much as I could be.

And I treated myself and other people and the world in a way that was true to me. What if we redefined it in that way? I think that's a pretty big ask, but I think it's worth a try. Yeah, I totally agree. I have to say my takeaway, just thinking about it from everything you've said, Sam, is this need for total vulnerability almost with ourselves, that we have a true sense of what our values actually are you said doesn't really matter what they are don't have to be the kind of generic ones we may all pick it's okay to feel however we feel but equally none of that is permanent and almost having that truly kind of vulnerable genuine authentic conversation with ourselves allows that to be the case as opposed

to the sense of I almost feel like so many of us are trying to be someone every single day because we feel like that's that person we all need to be it's that kind of quote-unquote perfect image and actually potentially as a result we're letting our thoughts run away with us we're not really acknowledging how we actually feel we're potentially continuing to run away from that as well and we're not really acknowledging how we actually feel we're potentially continuing to run away from that as well and we're not necessarily living by who we really are and as a result it's an impossible place to be it is and that's why you keep super busy or you don't think about it because sometimes when you start thinking about your values it's's not, oh, hey, great, I'm going to do this.

It's like, oh, my God, I haven't been living the way that's important to me for a really long time or maybe my whole life. And what does that mean now, now that I know that? So it's not easy work. And they don't necessarily make you happy in that internal way that I feel pleasure. And I think that you're right about vulnerability because there's some difficult conversations to be had when you learn to navigate your internal world. Ultimately, they might lead to some amazing changes, but difficult changes for you. And I think the other thing I would say is we think about these things probably quite a lot when we're teenagers or young adults. And then we set our path and we

get busy and then we don't recalibrate. Actually, maybe what fitted for you in terms of your values when you're 25 is not what fits when you're 45. And that's's okay but we don't look at how we've changed or what we've learned and how we might be different not better not worse just different so we don't go on that sort of journey and I think that's actually quite I find that quite a useful way because what I thought I was at 25 is not what I am 20 years later, and that's okay. That's fine. So I think sometimes we are, you know, not willing to be vulnerable. It's an uncomfortable thing. But I think the benefits of it are huge for your wellness, well-being. If you want to look at not living necessarily just a more pleasurable life, but a much more authentic and meaningful life. And do you think if you find that authenticity

and that meaning, you can be more content in your life? It's not that external kind of extreme that happiness is to some extent, but you almost have a bit more ease I think so because I think you can you can ride through those difficult emotions a bit more my view on resilience is not that you are this wall off which things bounce and you are completely unaffected by it you know know, like a wall in a squash court or something. It's that you will fall down, but you will get up. And each time you get up, you will access those things that help you more and more. It's not that you will never fall down. You will fall down all your life because that's the nature of being human, I think. But you will get better at making those,

at slowly recalibrating yourself rather than hoping for an amazing epiphany, which we'd all love. But sadly, I don't think it happens that way. What a perfect, perfect way to close the conversation, that permission for messiness, but also the hope that the messiness becomes a little easier to detangle a little faster as we grow. Thank you so, so much, Sam.

I honestly, I so appreciate it. I think, yeah, I certainly have taken a lot away from it and I hope everyone listening has as well. Thank you so much for having me. I hope you enjoyed listening to Sam as much as I did speaking to her. It's one of those conversations that has just sat with me for a long time now. It resonated very, very deeply and I took a huge amount from it. I think in particular from everything Sam said, the thing that really stuck with me is this sense that we can often feel we live in a rat race where we're running towards success or achievement in the conventional senses of those words. And I think it's so easy to forget within that that genuine wellness, genuine fulfillment doesn't come from when you achieve those very external goals. It comes from genuinely knowing who you are, what matters to you and acting in accordance with that. And it'd be very easy to say that aligning the way you live your days with your values isn't wellness.

But I think actually Sam really hit the nail on the head and fundamentally being in tune with who you are and knowing who you are and living by that day to day is almost the definition of what wellness should be. So I think I just really enjoyed the way that she reframed that. And I think that's a crucial part of moving this industry on. And in line with moving the industry on, we will be looking at whether or not today's topic is a fact or a fad. As you know, every week, Dr. Gemma Newman and I put to the test various different wellness trends to find out if they've got lots of basis in fact and science or they're passing fads. And this week we're going to be looking at collagen, collagen pills, collagen supplements. They can be incredibly expensive, but are they worth it for everlasting youth? Who knows? Is it a fact? Is it a fad? Let's find out what Gemma thinks.

Gemma, I'm really excited about this fact or fad today. Today we are going to be unpacking collagen and I would love, before we get into fact or fad, just to explain to our listeners what collagen actually is because it's such a buzzword I think in this world. You it a lot quite a marketing claim Hayley Bieber just did a very viral smoothie on Instagram with collagen in I'd love to understand what it is what might it do for us yeah well collagen is the most abundant protein in the body and it's used by our bodies to make connective tissues so tissues that connect together so we have it in our nails and in our hair and in our cartilage and in our tendons and of course in our skin, which is where all the beauty claims come from because collagen is the protein structure that keeps our skin looking youthful. And our bodies make it and the beauty industry obviously uses collagen to help us think

that we can have young looking skin forever and that's where I think a lot of the marketing stuff comes from. And how given that our bodies make it I guess two parts to that question one why would we then need to supplement it and two if we do supplement it can we be more youthful and dewy and glowy or is there not a huge amount in there oh well there's i mean there's so much i could say but basically yes our bodies make it our bodies make it less over time so as we get older we have less collagen production in the body um and there are other things that slow it down or break it down so um in terms of lifestyle, if you are having excess sun exposure, if you're having a lot of alcohol, if you smoke, if you don't have enough sleep, if you don't exercise,

if you eat unhealthily, a lot of these things could potentially contribute to reducing collagen in the body generally. So yes, we make it, but we don't make it as much as we're older, as when we're younger, which is why these supplements are so popular, because people think, well, if I consume it, then I'm more likely to get it. Interestingly, when you consume it, your body breaks down those amino acids, and then your body uses those amino acids where they're needed. So you can't guarantee that the collagen supplement that you consume is actually going to end up giving you healthier, dewy skin because your body's going to use it where it thinks it needs it. But having said that, the particular amino acids that we use to make collagen are sort of variable in different foods. So it's helpful to have them easily accessible for your body to make it if your body chooses to.

So just to pick up on that, first of all, when you say it's popular, you know how much I love to look at hashtags for these wellness trends 9.6 million hashtag collagen so this is a big one yeah I actually love this idea that you could be buying this not sorry that sounds a bit mean it's not that I love it but I think it just highlights the kind of madness sometimes of this world which is that you could spend a huge amount of money on something to transform your skin but actually your body could use it for your knee yes you're more likely to use it for your foot if you've had a foot injury you need to rebuild your your cartilage or yeah exactly your body uses it as your body chooses and so what and it's so expensive you're right

collagen supplements are ridiculously perhaps even prohibitively for most people expensive and there's not that much science so I think what makes it quite cloudy is that there are studies but they're all pretty much all industry funded studies so you can't sort of say that all industry funded studies are bad you know obviously you need to look at the the pros and cons the merits but there is a huge amount of inherent bias when a company is paying for research about collagen and they're a collagen company. That's going to be a bit tricky to sort of read through. And so when you look at big sort of systematic reviews of the evidence available, there is potential benefit, but we're a long way from really understanding objectively if it's actually going to make much difference. So given the fact that collagen is really important, obviously for our foot and our knee, but also for our skin, and that's something that, you know, I think lots of us are really aware of,

and you know, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with being, you know, conscious about the way you look. If we were thinking about supporting collagen production without needing a supplement, is that something that we can do? 100% yes. And I think also one of the other risks if you take a collagen supplement is that it may sort of make you take for granted doing the other stuff that's not great for collagen sustenance. So you'd have a collagen supplement, which means, oh, well, I'm just going to go out in the sun without sunscreen and I'm going to smoke those extra cigarettes or maybe have extra booze this Saturday night.

And I know I've got my collagen supplement, whereas actually those lifestyle changes are far more important in the long term to maintain adequate collagen production in the body than taking a supplement. So, yeah, I think looking after yourself is important. Wearing sunscreen if you want to or limiting your time in the sun once you've had enough of your vitamin D requirements, making sure that you don't drink excessively, making sure that you don't smoke. These are all really, really helpful. Other things in terms of food are protein-rich foods. Now, obviously, animal products are the only thing that will actually contain collagen, but you can get plenty of rich sources of protein from plants as well. Things like legumes and soy and nuts and pumpkin, chia, flax seeds, quinoa, spirulina. These are all sources of the right kinds of amino acids that your body will use to make collagen. And omega-3s for good skin health. You can take an algae oil

supplement or you can have your oily fish. Sulfur aids collagen production, so sulfur-rich veggies. Things like broccoli, those cruciferous veggies are really helpful. Leafy greens for vitamin C and folate as well. Vitamin C helps to form collagen and prevents its breakdown. So things like kiwis and bell peppers, berries. And beta-carotene as well is a really sort of skin-protecting nutrient. So think sort of sweet potatoes, apricots, all of these kinds of things are going to be amazing for your skin health

and your overall health too. It does seem to me the ultimate example of the fact that we're quite often sold these sort of magic answers, silver bullets, quick fixes. And actually, if it is working for you, that's fantastic. Clearly, as as you said there's some evidence to show that that really might be the case and that might really be grounded in science so that

is great but equally there are lots of other options yeah you don't have to do that exactly and as you said just taking the supplement alone won't be enough that won't give you the results that you're potentially looking for and spending quite a lot of money to try and get actually there isn't a magic answer you could take the supplements but you would still need to and benefit from eating that very healthy balanced diet loads of plants loads of you know fruit and veg loads of fiber reducing alcohol etc etc yeah and also I think the other thing that's not really talked about is the potential risks because there was a 2020 clean label project study where they tested 28

collagen supplements and 64% of them contained arsenic, 17% had cadmium, 33% were positive for lead and obviously most levels are very low so it's not going to be something that's harmful if you take it every now and then if you are somebody that's investing in collagen supplements week after week month after month you have to be quite careful to make sure that you're sourcing it somewhere where you're not likely to get those contaminants and perhaps use a company where they will provide a certificate of analysis say where they've got an independent third party to test their product to make sure that it doesn't have those contaminants. So I think you could be loading up on collagen supplements and then increasing your heavy metal exposure, which is obviously not great.

And not going to help your skin either. No, not going to help your skin. So would you say fact or fad for this one? I think reluctantly fad because we don't yet have the data definitively, objectively to show that it's definitely going to help people. But I think that there are some potential benefits that we haven't yet to study. And there we go. That's the end of today's episode. As always, thank you so much for listening thank you for coming on this journey into the world of wellness with me and cutting through all the confusion it's been amazing

just to say six episodes in to see your feedback so far I can't tell you how much it means to know that what we're sharing is resonating and it's helping you so if you are enjoying it please do get in touch either via email podcast at deliciouslyella.com or on social at deliciouslyella always do let us know if there's someone you want us to get on the show a trend you want us to unpick and just remember if you are going to make any big changes please do consult your doctor beforehand. Next week, I will be joined by Sarah Stein-Lobrano from the School of Life to discuss failure and why failure is actually such an important part of our lives. And then in Fact or Fad,

we're going to be looking at daily gratitudes, my favorite practice in the world. So I've got my fingers crossed for the evidence on that side. So I will see you back here next week. Just a massive thank you for listening. And also a big thank you to our partners. Reach great Canadian listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn ads. Email bob at libsyn.com to learn more.

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