The Wellness Scoop - How to Live Your Happiest Life with Fearne Cotton

Episode Date: March 2, 2021

With an introduction on our new charitable partnership with the Trussell Trust in support of their work supporting food banks across the UK and their campaign to end hunger; this episode then delves into a conversation with Fearne Cotton on creating boundaries, saying no (without a white lie), being true to who you really are, embracing vulnerability and finding compassion for yourself in order to live your most genuine, happy life. Trussell Trust: https://www.trusselltrust.org   Our mix and match oat bar packs for the £1 donation: https://deliciouslyella.com/product/oat-bars-mix-match/ Fearne Cotton: Speak Your Truth See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit BetterHelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com. Hi, and welcome to the Deliciously Ella podcast with me, Ella Mills, and my husband and business partner, Matthew Mills. Hi, everyone. Our podcast, Delicious Ways to Feel Better Better is a weekly show that's focused on everything that really matters to us at Deliciously Ella. We really believe that feeling good is a holistic 360 degree approach to our lifestyles and that wellness is about so much more than just

what we eat or how we exercise. It's about our relationships both with ourselves and those around us, our mindset, our sleep patterns, our stress levels, and just how we look after ourselves on a day-to-day basis. On this podcast, we'll be breaking down all of these topics, looking at everything that impacts on our mental and our physical health, and sharing the small, simple changes that'll hopefully inspire you to feel that little bit better. So today on the podcast, instead of taking questions at the beginning, we'll do that again next week, I promise. And thank you so much to everyone who sent them in, podcast at deliciousiello.com. We instead wanted to use these few minutes at the beginning to announce a really special new

charitable partnership with the Trussell Trust and shed some light on the amazing work that they're doing. For those of you who aren't familiar with the charity, they support a network of over 1200 food banks within the UK. And through that, they provide emergency food and support for those that need it. Over the last five years, the Trussell Trust has seen a 74% increase in people who are needing their food banks. And the issue has only got worse since the pandemic started. For context, on average, their network gave out over 2,500 parcels to children every single day of the first six months of the pandemic. At Delicious Cielo we're going to be working with the team at the Trussell Trust to both increase awareness of what's going on right now and to help more practically as

well. We're going to be volunteering our time as a team, we're going to be donating to their work and the starting point for this is a one pound donation of every one of our mix and match oat bars that are going to be sold on our website from today. And after that, we're going to be looking to do something similar on each bill from our cafe once we're able to open that in a couple of months time. So to give you a little bit more information on the situation as it stands and the realities of food banks right now, we've got a short interview with the Trust CEO, Emma Revy, to help you understand where we are. And then after that, we'll be delving into our interview with Fern Cotton. So welcome, Emma. Thanks so much for giving up your time to tell us a little bit more about this. Thanks so much for having me and also for this phenomenal partnership. We're

really, really grateful for the support you guys are giving. We're so excited to be working with you, Emma, on what is such an important cause. And I think that the prominence and awareness of food banks has increased enormously. I know for me and reading this shocking statistic that Ella just read about how there's been a 74% increase in people needing food banks over the past five years. For listeners who aren't fully aware, can you explain exactly what food banks do? Sure. We provide three days of emergency food for somebody who's been referred to a food bank for them and their whole household. And people will be referred to a food bank from local services based on the fact they don't have enough money to be able to

afford the essentials such as food. So on a normal day, that could be somebody just not having enough money to put together lunch for their kids or for the family they're living with a situation where they're very worried about how they're going to be able to pay for their next meal and so in those situations and people will be referred to our food banks and our food banks will as well as providing three days of emergency food seek to provide as much wraparound support to help somebody in that situation as they can. And in normal times, we would provide a safe space to sit and have a cup of tea and chat about the difficulties that people are experiencing and just try and provide some

solidarity in the midst of those really difficult times. I know speaking to your team last week, what's really important for the Trust and the campaign that you're doing to end hunger is for us all to understand a little bit more as closely as we can what it's like really to stand in those shoes and hearing a bit more about the fact that so many of the people that come to you are actually also really struggling with more than just that. They're really struggling with things like their mental health, with anxiety and depression. Could you help us understand a little bit more about who it is that you see on a more day-to-day basis? Yeah, no, sure. That harrowing statistic that you read at the beginning about during the first six months of the pandemic, we've been providing over 2,600 food parcels to children every day. And we know that almost a third of our parcels go out to children and families with children. But we also see people who are struggling with both their physical health, about three quarters of people who come to food banks are either struggling themselves or somebody in their household are struggling with long term ill health or with a disability.

And we also know that over half of the people who are coming to food banks are struggling with mental ill health and part of that is just the challenge of working out how you're going to get by without enough money for food and other essentials but also that's definitely a driving factor as to why people find themselves at food banks so it's just not right that when people are unwell or unable to work they're finding themselves having to depend on a food bank in that situation. I really feel we can do better than that to support people who are struggling with those difficulties. Absolutely. And there's so much that we should all be doing more of. And it'd be interesting as well to understand what has the impact of the pandemic, of the challenges of the last year been? Well I think we've all experienced the unprecedented and kind of unimaginable impact of the pandemic in terms of people's lives we've all had to change the way

we work and we live and for many people that has meant losing their jobs and not being able to go to work and not being able to provide for themselves or their families in the way they had done previously and so on top of what has been huge increases in number of people coming to food banks and not being able to provide for themselves or their families in the way they had done previously. And so on top of what has been huge increases in number of people coming to food banks over the last five years, we saw that surge in demand in our food banks just as the pandemic immediately kicked off. We've seen communities pull together to help us meet that demand. If you had asked me in April if there was any way we were going to be able to keep going in the face of the surge of demand we saw, I would have honestly said I wasn't sure we were going to make it through. But actually, communities have stepped forward, they've donated food,

they've stepped forward as volunteers and allowed us to keep going. But none of us ever wants to imagine a situation where our friends or our family, just because they lost their job, or they were too unwell to work, ended up having to turn to a food bank to get an emergency food parcel to get by. And so I think more and more of us have been thinking about that over this last year, as we've become more and more aware of people really experiencing that, losing their jobs, struggling and having to rely on social security security and maybe finding themselves in a situation where they've had to turn to the help of a food bank. I think Emma one of the things I was most surprised by and it wasn't something actually that I was aware of was that 25 years ago food banks didn't even exist so has

it been that this need has just skyrocketed, not only in the last five years, as we said, but actually over the last couple of decades? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's so important, Ella, that we hold that in our minds, because it can feel like food banks are just a normal part of who we are as a society now. And they just weren't there 25 years ago. But also, even 10 years ago, years ago our network distributed 60 000 food parcels last year 1.9 million food parcels this is a new thing a huge surge in people who are experiencing hunger and there's really no room for that in our country in 2021 it is possible to go back to a situation where people have enough money to be able to afford the

essentials and i think as we come through this pandemic it's something we really need to commit to to one another that we will create a hunger-free future create a space where people can rely on our social security system if they can't work or they become too unwell and they shouldn't have to face relying on charity and donated foods to get by to cover those essentials yeah absolutely and so what can we all do we're obviously very proud to to have this partnership with you for anyone who's listening who maybe wants to get involved personally what can people do other than obviously donating what what can people do to help well we have started a campaign for a hunger free future we want to see a uk where there's an end to the need for food banks. And people can go onto our website and join us in that campaign. And there will be lots of information about different ways people can take actions and do things to raise awareness about the need to create a hunger-free future. We've been blown away by the support of the general public. And we know that nobody wants

to see anyone facing hunger in our country. So we believe that together this can change. It is possible. It wasn't here 25 years ago, even 10 years ago. It wasn't anything like it is today. We can change this and we can make a difference. Thank you so much, Emma, for your time today. Honestly, it really means a lot for us for you to take the time to help us all understand a little bit more about what the issue is. And I'm sure it will resonate a lot with our listeners and collectively at Delicious Yellow as part of our community, we can hopefully start to make an impact on this for those who want to learn more. I'll put all the details of everything we've spoken about in our show notes

below. So we're going to now move on towards today's topic. And today we're speaking to one of our lovely friends, Fern Cotton, who is just an absolute breath of fresh air, I think, within the wellness space. She's so genuine. She's so truthful. She's so confident and happy in who she is. But I know that's not always been the case. And she's been through some very difficult times. So we've welcomed her onto the podcast today to talk about this, to talk about embracing your vulnerability, creating boundaries, and ultimately learning to live a life that you genuinely really, really enjoy. So welcome Fern. I actually put this in a newsletter a few weeks ago for anyone that is signed up to our newsletter, but I've been absolutely loving Fern's most recent

book. I think a lot of us have used the last year to re-evaluate the parts of our lives that we are really missing, but also the parts of our lives that we've actually really rediscovered and really enjoyed during lockdown. And for me, certainly as a self-confessed introvert, I've really enjoyed, I guess, not having to come up with a reason to not do things. And everything Fern said in the book, just about creating boundaries and about being totally honest with yourself about who you really are, really, really resonated with me. And so I was very keen to get Fern on because she's going to express it infinitely better than I would. And Fern, I would love it if you could start with just telling us a little bit more about this and about what pushed you to open up and have

that sense of vulnerability and honesty both with yourself and the need to then express that with other people. Well thank you first of all for saying such lovely things about the book that is so so lovely of you there was certainly a sort of physical catalyst for me to write the book and that was the fact that I had this like, reoccurring husky voice, but it wasn't like a good husky voice. It went into like, I couldn't work sort of problematic areas. So I went to see a throat specialist. And I had this massive cyst on my vocal cords, they basically weren't shutting, there was like a huge gap whenever I was trying to speak. So like loads of air was coming out, which isn't ideal when your only job is talking like

that's literally all I do so I got in the cab after having that initial consultation and rather than sort of feel panicked I just kind of thought that is so strange that I've ended up with that on my vocal cords like why isn't it somewhere else in my mouth, throat, or anywhere else in my body? Why is it, like, there? Because that's, you know, I'm meant to be a communicator. That's what I've done for years. And it all clicked in a kind of a second, like, oh, my God.

You know, you don't have to believe this or not, but for me it was like, I'm not using my voice correctly. I'm not saying what I want to say. I'm like swallowing down words. I'm holding resentment there. I'm not being honest with other people. And I'm certainly not being honest with myself. And I think in life, like you've just said, Ella, there's all those moments where you

do what you think you should do rather than what really feels right for you, makes your heart sing, just feels good. So, oh, I had to really sit on that one. I was like, what am I going to do with all these thoughts, this information? And luckily, I had the time to sort of write it down and get it into book form. But it's certainly something that I'm still deeply curious about because I've by no means nailed it. And one of the things you do in the book is you have this list of your truths. And in that, you're very open about the fact that you no longer enjoy traditional fun. And it's very interesting that, and again, it really resonates because I know when I changed my whole lifestyle about 10 years ago now, when I wasn't very well, I stopped doing things like drinking. And I had a lot of people tell me that I was very boring.

And I really internalized that feeling. And I remember about a year ago or so, I was doing an interview and I described myself as the most boring person. And Matt pulled me up on it. And he said, that's absolutely not true. How can you say that about yourself? And I had just really taken society's expectations and put them on myself. And it's actually not, I guess, about being conventionally boring. I'm very passionate about my work, about all my interests, about my family, about my close friends. But I, like you, do not particularly enjoy that sense of traditional fun of big groups of people of drinking. And I'm sure that's again, something that will resonate with listeners. But often, I think we struggle to act on it for fear of being an outsider. Yeah, for sure. I mean, all the things you've just talked about there that you're interested in, that to me is fun, like being passionate about something like my work

is so fun. I love doing stuff like this I love writing I love doing my own podcast that is like I am a nerd when it comes to that stuff that to me is the ultimate fun and I think over the years my sort of barometer of what's fun has just changed you know when I was younger I don't think there was ever a time when I necessarily loved going out there was always a sort of a huge anxiety or I don't I had to push past the feeling of I don't want to go I don't want to go but then there were times when you know I'd get wildly drunk and that would end up in fun because you know I'd dance or meet some random people or end up going back to someone's flat for another party or you know whatever it was and the bits of it were really, but it's not my natural inclination whatsoever. And

I think you do just have to look at what society very recently has told us is fun. Like 200 years ago, fun wasn't even a concept of something you would, you know, probably aim to do. You just have moments where, oh, some fun happened there accidentally. There wasn't like a big party, unless you were living in like the upper echelons of society. There were no parties. There was no going out and having wild nights out at bars or whatever. It was for such a small portion of society. And now it's so normal that, you know, anyone can have a party.

I mean, not right now, but anyone could, you know, in modern day terms, throw a party, go and meet their friend at the pub, have a gathering at their house or flat, whatever, you know, it's very normal. But that was that's so not been the case for 1000s and 1000s of years. And fun would be more sort of sporadic, or it would be pinned upon what you love doing. So I just think it's got a bit warped that, you know, fun has to involve getting really drunk, being really wild, being outrageous. You know, fun for me is quite a small, quiet thing. It's not a big, loud thing anymore.

And that I think that just has hit me with age, really. You know, that's just been something I've gone. I can't be bothered with all that anymore. I just can't be bothered. I really know what makes me tick. And I like being at home. I love working. I just can't be bothered. I really know what makes me tick. And I like being at home. I love working. I love my family. That's kind of enough for me, really. Yeah, I love that. I love how you describe fun as the small things. And it's those small moments.

And I could not agree with you more. Fun for me is exactly it's coffee and Netflix nursery rhymes with the girls. It's not those massive highs and then the kind of inevitable lows that come with it it's just the small moments that over the course of the week make the week really special even though each moment in itself is as you say relatively small and I wondered one of the things you talk about which is something again I really resonated with but would honestly say I'm not great at, and I think probably lots of us aren't great at, is saying no. We may possibly recognise what it is that we really enjoy and what it is that we don't or what causes anxiety and what doesn't, but we're not always necessarily brilliant at

then saying no and taking a step back from those things because we feel really guilty, we don't want to let people down. We don't want to upset people. And you're very honest about moving away from telling the white lies. So I wondered how it is you got to the point of learning actually just to politely say no. Yeah, I mean, I think I'm still learning it if I'm really honest with you. I don't think it's something that just rolls off the tongue.

But for the book's sake, I certainly started experimenting with it because I wanted to just see what would happen if I really cut out all the crap. You know, why do we have to have a valid reason? Why can't we just not want to do something? Again, I think these are sort of modern day pressures that are quite weird. And we're so worried about sometimes upsetting people, but more so looking bad, if we're really honest. We don't want someone to think badly of us. We want them to think that we're these benevolent beings always or whatever. And that's not true. You know, there are days when we're exhausted. There are days when we just don't feel great in

our physical bodies and we don't want to be out and see other people. There are days when we've got a headache for no reason or whatever it is. And I don't think we have to have a reason necessarily. And the thing that I realized is if you've got a friend who absolutely loves you, holds no expectations, like I don't have expectations of any of my mates. If they say to me they can't come over or they can't meet up or they can't come to my birthday party or whatever that is fine like I don't have expectations on anyone so I've got to hopefully expect the same and if and if it doesn't happen then that person perhaps isn't the friend that I thought they were and it has happened like you know I have had friends say to me very very few times but I

remember one particular friend being really upset that I didn't go to a party. And I had a really young baby at the time, super young. And I was like, oh my God, I couldn't think of anything worse than leaving the house. I just felt like my whole body was in pieces and my emotions were all over the shop. There's no way I could go. But this person didn't really get that and that's fine you know that's a little situation that I kind of dealt with but usually if you say to someone like I said to a friend in the book you know I can't come to your 40th I'm just not feeling mentally like I'm in that headspace work's really overwhelming the kids aren't sleeping well

I don't want to go to a party and this party started at nine I mean my god I go I go I go to bed at like half nine. I was like, how am I even going to get there? This is outrageous. I'm going to have to have a sleep before I go. The whole thing just felt too much. And I said to the friend, I couldn't. And she went, oh God, don't worry. Let's go for a cup of tea on our own another time. And it was like, fine. And it 99% of the time will be, but we build up all these fears that we're going to be judged and blah, blah, blah. So I'm really still sort of experimenting with that one. But I think I just, again, through experience, probably care a bit less. Yeah, I've noticed it in my life as well. I've read a book, obviously not as good as your one, but called Essentialism a year or so ago. And it talks about the same things about how

it's so much better than the people who really leave a dent in the world of people who do fewer things really really well rather than doing loads of things just okay and I think it really helps just crystallize the things that actually matter to you in your life and they kind of cascade from the most important of your family and your absolute closest closest friends that your purpose in life or your career or whatever it is a hobby that you're absolutely passionate about and then so much of the other stuff just gets kind of whittled away as a result and you feel like you learn where you're irreplaceable either to people or to professional commitment that you have and all of this other stuff just

kind of dissipates and I'm sure for most people it happens as a maturity thing and I know that it happened for me as well when I felt kind of most secure in myself I was most happy to say no to things whereas when I was really like what is going on in my life that was when I was more likely to say yes to loads things this is a kind of spray and pray approach that that something good would come but sometimes it can happen to a major life event like having kids. And that was obviously a huge thing for us. But also I think it comes from a place of personal strength

and personal pride as well with who you are to be able to say no and not worry so much about the judgment that may come on the other side. You're right. Yeah, like there'll be often times

where I'm not feeling good in myself and I'll get offered to do a job or whatever. And I don't know if I'm really that bothered, but I feel like because you're not feeling good in myself and I'll get offered to do a job or whatever. And I don't know if I'm really that bothered, but I feel like because you're not feeling good in yourself, fear is the first thing that pops up and fear goes, oh, don't get cocky.

Don't think you can start turning work down, blah, blah, blah. Whereas like, I'm still going to work. I'm still going to be able to do things, but it becomes so heightened and potent when it doesn't need to, because you're not feeling brilliant and like you say Matt you know when you are feeling like strong raring to go you can confidently calmly and really nicely just say I'm actually okay thanks and that's fine it's a very interesting one because I feel so often we were doing an episode last week about relationships so

really quite different to this but I feel that every topic that we come to so often effectively boils down to the same thing, which is, I think, exactly what you both just said, which is that ultimately, it's about cultivating those tools to make you feel strong in yourself. Because if you feel confident in yourself and your self-esteem is high, because as you say, you feel strong, you feel powerful, your mind feels in a good place, then you're so much more okay with choosing to remove yourself from something and not seeing it, for example, as a personal rejection instead of the fact that you have chosen not to partake in this. And I wondered if you did definitely feel that way, but also what tools that you have found have got yourself to that point? Because I know you talked

about growing up, you felt you had to assume that if you kind of buried this sort of boring sense of yourself, you would feel more confident. But I presume that that wasn't really the case. No, I mean, like, my 20s, like most people's were just pure experimentation, because I didn't feel well I guess worthy of doing the job that I was doing because I went from being a school kid to all of a sudden being on TV and there was all these shiny pop stars around or whatever and I just thought god you know I'm just this random kid from the suburbs I don't have a backstory or anything quirky about me. I'm just some random kid and everyone else seemed very sort of interesting and curious or whatever. So that was all kind of percolating throughout my teens. And then when I hit my 20s, I've been

thinking about this subject so much this week, weirdly. In my 20s, it was just like a wild time of you know even on a really shallow aesthetic level of like dyeing my hair black because this cool girl that I knew had black hair and then dyeing it red because that didn't feel quite right and wearing clothes that were a bit outrageous or you know I'd go into Camden a lot and hang out with like a real cool group of people that would go to all the gigs in Camden and I was just trying to sort of be interesting and and sort of I don't know have this side of me that didn't feel like I happily do today which is quiet and precise and organized and nerdy you know all the stuff that I'm really happy with today. I just felt like I had to bury it so deeply. And especially when I was on TV, like, you know, 19 presenting Top of the Pops,

it's like, what, you know, I did not have the experience or the confidence to be in that sort of position. So I had to fake it and put the armour suit on to be ready to go, whatever. And I think it's only recently where I've been talking about stuff I'm deeply passionate about and real life that I feel so comfortable. I don't feel like I've got to try and do or be anything. I'm just talking about things that hopefully connect all of us because we're all feeling this stuff. So what I'm trying to do at the moment is love the fern that was in her 20s. Because a lot of the time I go, oh, God, I can't bear to think about what I was like in my 20s.

I was such an idiot. You know, like I think many of us feel that way. Like maybe not you because you guys have like smashed it in your 20s. But I was just sort of like a gobby, leery person in crazy clothes. I shouldn't even use this language about myself now. I should be like very positive about it, but I'm still in the process of learning to love that version of me because I do feel like an entirely different person. My life is entirely different. My thought process is entirely different. You know, the essence of me is still there. I was

driven then. I was, you know, wanting to help then. I was wanting to be a decent friend etc but it wasn't coming from an authentic place it sort of when I was actioning it whereas now I'm just me so I'm really trying to like love me in my 20s and it's really hard really honestly I I totally resonate with that I spent from about the age of three to the age of 26 dreaming of winning the open championship as a golfer and I used to play loads of golf when I was a kid and I played professionally for four years after university and when I stopped playing golf I had this like huge identity crisis of who am I and what am I going to be now that I know I'm not going to be this thing that I've dreamed of being as a kid and I stopped playing golf when I was 26 and I went

and worked in finance for four years and the whole time I was just like I didn't know who I was it definitely wasn't what I wanted to be doing and as a result I was going out lots and hanging out with people that I just didn't really like but I was just kind of going out for the sake of it so I was like who am I what am I doing yeah I think in our 20s we're meant to be experimenting and being a bit wild and trying new things otherwise how do we know what really works and what really fits you know it's hard to just root back to what your intuition is I think pushing those boundaries in your 20s is really important and now I'm doing the work as I hurtle towards 40 this year to kind of fix that relationship I have with my past and and you know

all the regrets that we carry around with us mistakes that we seemingly made whatever I think it's tough but it's really essential to like properly do the good work now and I think it's really interesting talking about the introvert thing because I don't think anybody out there would assume that I'm an introvert but I'm a huge introvert I love being at home writing is you know probably my favorite part of my career now because I'm just on my own and you know I remember like even as a kid before my 20s you know like late teens that we had like a little local nightclub and then we had sort of you know a bigger one in a bigger town and my mum would go oh just go out like have some fun why are you here just like go and I'll be like oh I don't

know if I should I don't know if I can really deal with it tonight and she'd have to like convince me to go out and I would and I'd have some fun and it would be great but it was never like you know my desire to go out and and and let loose and be free I've always found it quite sort of daunting and and now I just don't bother at all and I think the pandemics made me go like so far into that like when we're out of lockdown I'm not going to be racing out to a bar or whatever. I'm staying at home still. It just made me realise, oh no, I am truly content at home. I don't need any of that stuff. Unless I have to have to go to something, I would way rather be at home. Stop sitting on your aeroplane points and get big savings so you can be somewhere you actually want to be, like on a beach.

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Am I not going because I lack too much confidence? And actually, as I've got older, I've really appreciated, appreciated no I didn't go because that's still my favorite thing like at the moment we're obsessed with watching Food Network every night we just sit in bed with a cup of peppermint and licorice tea and watch 10 year old episodes of Jamie Oliver 30 Minute Meals heaven the dream heaven you know what it's so interesting so on episode one of happy place a hundred and whatever episodes ago I interviewed Dawn French and she gave amazing wisdom and insight into all sorts of things and one thing really stuck with me and I've I've talked about it a lot over the last few years so she she talked about having this sort of internal barometer of going, right, when have I retreated from life?

Or let's look at the moments when I haven't retreated, but I've chosen to step back from something to have some time out. And I thought, oh my God, I might be retreating all the time from certain things because I'm too scared or whatever. And I kind of came away feeling a bit panicked, like, God, have I retreated from life? Because, you know, I stepped down from doing some stuff like Radio 1 and some TV shows I was doing and stuff because I just needed to have a different sort of a rejig of life and a bit more peace. So I started to panic a bit. And I've talked to a lot of people about it since. And actually, one of my friends said the other day, well, even if you are retreating from life, this is a neighbor of mine, Owen is a psych therapist. He's a super smart, brilliant person. He said, even if you are retreating at times in life, why do you think a retreat is called a retreat? You know, a retreat is to step back, take stock, do some self-care, whatever the hell you want to call it until you feel energized and ready to then step back into whatever it is that you were doing or

want to pursue or do. So I'm really interested in that. And I think, you know, Dawn brought up such a brilliant point of looking at God, when have I properly retreated versus when am I stepping back to actually take stock of things here? And it's something that it plays on my mind quite a lot. But I think more often than not, I don't think I'm, I'm totally retreating. I am doing that sort of step back retreat to gain some energy and momentum to then hopefully carry on doing some good work. Absolutely, I guess. And that's how I say is trying to decide, is this a very conscious choice, because I genuinely feel that myself, my work, my family, the things I really care about will be better from me saying no and

not doing that. And I'll be a better wife, mum, business owner as a result. Or am I saying no because I'm scared? And there are certainly lots of times that I say no because I'm scared. I'm scared to put myself out there. I'm scared to put myself forward. I definitely do, which I guess sometimes may seem ironic for a personal brand in some ways but I definitely do have that self-consciousness and that low self-esteem at points to put myself out there but I'd say 90% of the time it's a genuine I just don't want to do it. I've always noticed that as a huge sign of strength of you and it's one thing that I admired so much when we first met is how happy you were just to say no and like this is what I like doing and I'm cool with it and so you

always felt that you were kind of wise beyond your years in that whereas I definitely was not the case. Well it's funny isn't it because sometimes you know you people that do a lot and say yes to everything you could be fooled into thinking they're super confident they've got it sorted but some of the time they're saying yes to all of those things and doing everything because they're trying to build up their own self-esteem or distraction from feeling crap, you know, just distracting themselves from dealing with the stuff that's lying beneath the surface. So I think it's really interesting to look at that. And I also agree, you know, my brother's a person that's really, really chilled, really calm, really good at just saying, no, don't want to do that or I'm not doing this and he's fine with it so I have to really look to people like that and go what would my brother do or whoever else I know that's great because I might just go oh god yes before I even have thought about it and then I think I don't want to bloody do that I don't want to do that

I want to watch this is us with Jesse on the sofa I don't want to go and do that thing you know so I've got to really pause, I think, first. Pause before I say yes or no. We love This Is Us, by the way. Utterly, utterly obsessive. Best show ever. Where are you at? What series are you in?

We're fully up to date. So we've watched the most recent episodes. I just cry in every episode. I look over at Ella and she's not crying. I'm like, you've literally made a stone. What is wrong with you? I cry at all of and she's not crying. I'm like, you've literally made a stone. What is wrong with you? I cry at all of it. All of it. I'm only on series two,

but I literally, the other day I watched an episode and I was like, I was inconsolable. I was heaving. And Jessie was like, what is wrong with you? I was like, it's just bringing up some deep pain for me and I'm just working through it. I love that show. It is absolutely.

My mum passed away almost three years ago now and so I think them dealing with the whole emotions of a parent dying I'm much older than they are when it happened but still it does it just absolutely brings it all up it's absolutely amazing I love it yeah it's been our show of the year for sure and I know in terms of the busyness you you wrote about that quite a lot about sort of running away from truth and authenticity and hiding it in busyness yeah like that is such an easy thing to do and it's you know it's celebrated in the modern world isn't it like how are you oh god I'm so busy I haven't had a day off in like a thousand years and I've worked all weekend and it's almost like this sort of

boast and this new way of looking at how important someone is and it's like like this sort of boast and this new way of looking at how important someone is and it's like what a load of shit like you know that's ridiculous for busyness to now mean something busyness is a choice you either choose to fill up your time with loads of stuff or you make a really good decision to leave space to do nothing which is like devalued massively, you know, doing nothing. It's seen as sort of being idle or lazy or whatever. I mean, there's obviously a difference between doing absolutely nothing always and making a really decent decision of having little pockets of time where you do decompress and you step back and you deal with stuff that you've been through rather than running for the hills, running through, you know, like you talking about your mum passing away. It's obviously so common for people to just run from grief

because grief is the heaviest emotion possible and so hard to deal with. So, you know, for some, it might include trying to keep busy to keep going with it. But that grief's there. That grief is going to catch up with you. And it's the same for anything, trauma, you know, anger, just sort of suppressing anger. We can busy ourselves and suppress anything. Like that's, I think, kind of, you know, modern day human inclination is to just bury big emotions rather than, I think, probably a more Eastern way of dealing with things might be, you know, to really feel what's going on, to deal with the emotion, to work with it, to work through it physically or verbally or whatever. And to sort of have maybe ceremony around it or whatever, even if it is sort of anger, sadness, whatever.

And I think we just try and go, oh, God, no, quick, let's just keep moving, keep moving. But I think it just does catch you up and I certainly had that with you know trickier stuff that I went through you know around when I turned 30 and I just tried to sort of get rid of the depression and pile things on top of it and keep working and whatever and it's only really now sort of 10 years down the line that I'm really picking it all apart and like looking at it and checking it out. And, you know, I think if you ignore something that feels heavy or dark or just something you don't want to look at, it actually makes it bigger because it's like this sort of monster in a cupboard over here. Whereas if you're sort of curious about it and you kind of look into it

a bit when it feels right, because obviously when it's deep, deep trauma for some people, that is not something that you want to do. Well, you certainly want to be doing it with a highly qualified professional. But if you can have some sort of relationship with that darkness, that tough thing you went through, that heavy emotion, I just think it depletes it. It just makes it smaller and not something that you're constantly fighting away you sort of you know that it's there but you you have a dynamic with it almost absolutely it feels like there can in that sense also be a stigma around the negative emotions which are so natural I mean everyone's going to feel anger sadness jealousy frustration that they're just so normal and I think again in this

sort of search of a perfect life we're not always brilliant at just acknowledging that these are part and parcel of what's actually just a very normal life rather than this sense of perfection and I know for me there are several tools that always really help yoga has been a really transformational practice I just find nothing helps me tune in with how I actually feel more than that and acknowledge that. But I've also actually this year during lockdown, one of the things I really started getting into actually after May was born was breathwork. And I really found that quite transformative actually in terms of acknowledging emotions and processing emotions. And I guess obviously there's been tough times for everyone

in the last year with the lockdown. And I know you talked about breathwork as one of the practices you use, but I wondered alongside that, are there any other kind of very practical tools that you've found really helpful, both in dealing with difficult times and those ups and downs of emotions, but also, I guess, in embracing your truth, your authenticity. It's 100% talking to people. Like, I don't know what I would do if I couldn't bounce thoughts, ideas and worries of people that I really trust. And I've got a kind of handful of people

that are super wise, that I can go, do you mind if I just run something by you? I'm freaking out about this. You know, do you have the time to talk about it and likewise I'm there for them if they want to do the same and that just for me gets everything into perspective because I'm someone that can definitely catastrophize go off on some spiral of angst and panic making something that was seemingly mediocre into like you know just ridiculousness and part of that is narcissism like making something not about me completely my fault.

Oh, my God, I've created this huge, awful thing a million miles over here because I had this thought or this thing that I, you know, I'll just snowball something and take too much responsibility on for everything awful that's happening and think it's all my fault. That's one of my go-to sort of catastrophizing things so if I just talk to someone else and say god I'm a bit panicked about this or this really made me feel awful the other day and I'm sort of self-loathing a bit which is obviously one of the most destructive things that we can do not only for ourselves this is for then like connection with others and being in a supportive group to

your friends and family and and then being helpful further afield you know you've got to be strong for that sort of stuff so I think talking to other people has just been it still is like daily the best thing I can do if I feel panicked about something and think oh I won't trouble Jesse I'll just go to bed and hope for the best I know that is like not a good idea so like the other night I was really worrying about something from like years ago and I just said oh I just this like guilt's come up and this self-loathing and can we talk about it and he just sat and we talked it through and he kind of after slightly heated discussion got to a place where I felt much better about all of it.

And I just think it's the best thing we can do is just talk to other people because that thing that you think is so weird and freaky and awful about yourself or that thing that keeps you up at night that you did 15 years ago, you wish you hadn't done or whatever, your best friend's done the same. Your mum and dad have experienced the same. Everybody, like Beyonce, she's felt all this. And this is the thing about social media. We think, oh my God, look at these perfect people who have got nothing wrong with them or going on

or they have never made a mistake or whatever. It's bollocks. We know it is. Everybody has done terrible things and brilliant things. Everybody has lied and cheated a bit. Everybody has made mistakes. Everybody has regrets. But social media wipes all of that clean and just makes it look like, oh, look at that lovely, perfect little life. And I think that's why talking to people

just breaks that all down, just dismantles it in one fell swoop. So, yeah, it's definitely talking to people. I think it's such a relevant point, as you said, is that it's so easy to look at other people and it's so easy to think they have this sense of perfectionism, which obviously doesn't exist. It's a kind of completely implausible and undefinable concept as it is. But it's very, very easy, especially when you're in a more difficult place to look at it. And that's why I love the medium of a podcast. That's where Happy Place is so brilliant. Your podcast, I think there's so much

in just being able to have a genuine conversation and be able to share, as you said, normality, which is ups and downs and all the emotions that are associated with that rather than just this totally, as I said, implausible sense of perfect happiness day in, day out. Yeah, it's destructive. For all of us, it's not good.

And Fern, we just can't really thank you enough for your time today I think that people really I'm hoping they'll have been able to take so much from this is they're just ultimately normalizing emotion and honesty and as we hopefully moving into more normal way of living that we'll be able to take some of these learnings of ourselves that I think we've all had a bit more space to unpack this year forward and also be more compassionate to other people when they want to say no to us yeah but I wondered if there was one thought you wanted to leave listeners with one tip or one way of re-evaluating what what matters to you what that would be well I think in in context what we've talked about and with Speak Your Truth, I think the thing that you have to remember, and I remember once hearing Brené Brown say something really

similar, you know, speaking your truth isn't always going to be easy. And it also means that the people around you might occasionally feel a bit pissed off, but that is still so much better than just living your life, not saying what you want. And I'm not talking about haphazardly having a pop at people or whatever, but saying what really feels right, which is usually coming from a really, really good place. It's so worth, I think, taking the risk. And if other people seemingly don't like you speaking your truth, that's usually got so much more to do with them than it has you. So I think it's worth a try, even if it feels scary. I think the liberation and the knowledge that you're working from a place of intuition which is coming from a good place I think it's worth it yeah I totally agree with that there's one thing I was

just thinking that I wanted to add as you said that which is that when I totally changed my whole lifestyle and I changed it effectively overnight I felt very alien from a lot of people around me and as I said a lot of people were really not sure on, I guess, this new version of myself, but I so quickly realised I was so infinitely happier. And whilst I certainly did have times where I thought, am I missing out because I'm not part of this anymore and I'm not part of that anymore? I undoubtedly have ended up with significantly better friendships and relationships in my life because they're so much more genuine. And those people, I think, love me for who I genuinely am versus what I was potentially more,

not pretending to be, but more embracing, which I didn't really enjoy. And as a result, there was naturally some sense of barrier between us because on my side, I guess there was an element of insincerity on it. So I have significantly less friends. I have significantly better friends. Yeah, that's what you want. Like, isn't that a lovely feeling to be fully accepted by the people in your life for who you are rather than the projection of what you think they want? I don't want somebody liking hanging out with me because I once interviewed take that I want them to like me because I'm a flawed fallible human being who cocks up all the time and keeps trying her best I would rather they like that couldn't agree more oh amazing Fern thank you so much and

I'll put Fern's book details in the show notes below but as she said it's just called speak your truth and it is if this is something you're working on I really genuinely couldn't recommend it more oh well that means so much thank you so much guys I've loved talking to you today thank you so much for coming on we so appreciate it and we'll be back again next Tuesday please do share the episode with anyone you think this will be helpful with and we will see you back here next week. Thanks, guys. You're a podcast listener, and this is a podcast ad heard only in Canada.

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