The Wellness Scoop - How to Supercharge Your Brain

Episode Date: April 6, 2021

This week we’re looking at the practical advise on how to maximise, nurture and sustain your brain health with Professor James Goodwin, a leading expert on brain health. From managing stress levels to why meditation and yoga make your brain glow, the impact of intermittent fasting, how exercise creates new brain cells, the impact of sleep, of gut health and that cognitive decline is not inevitable.   Professor James Goodwin Supercharge Your Brain See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hi, and welcome to the Deliciously Ella podcast with me, Ella Mills, and my husband and business partner, Matthew Mills. Hi everyone. So for those who don't know us or who are new to the podcast, our podcast is a weekly show that's focused on everything that matters to us at Delicious Cielo. And we really believe that feeling good is a holistic 360 degree approach to our lifestyles and that wellness is about so much more than just what we eat or how we exercise. It's our relationships, our mindset, our sleep patterns, our stress levels, and just how we eat or how we exercise. It's our relationships, our mindset, our sleep patterns, our stress levels, and just how we look after ourselves on a day-to-day basis. On our podcast,

we'll be breaking down all these topics, looking at everything that impacts on our mental and our physical health and sharing small, simple changes that'll hopefully inspire you to feel better. And today, that means looking at supercharging your brain with Professor James Goodwin, a leading expert on brain health, and we're going to be looking at the practical advice on how to maximise nurture and sustain your brain health. And I've been reading the book over the last couple of days. It is so interesting. And I think something that really resonated with me, and I'm sure for those who listen to our podcast a lot or similar podcasts exploring health and wellbeing, you'll be finding the same, which is that that overlaps between every part of your body, whether that's looking after your gut health or whether that's looking after your brain health or whether that's managing stress or exploring topics like meditation or yoga it all

links so intrinsically and I think it's really crystallized for me exactly why we do what we do at Delicious Yellow and why we're so passionate about now talking about more than just what we put on our plates although that is a critical factor in our health but actually the way that do at Delicious Yellow and why we're so passionate about now talking about more than just what we put on our plates although that is a critical factor in our health but actually the way that we do live our lives every second of every day has such a huge impact on our well-being and over the last year starting my nutritional therapy degree and doing my biochemistry last year it's really crystallized again the science and whilst I would say the science is incredibly complicated getting to grips with every hormone and enzyme and chemical that's working within our body is

no small feat but it is extraordinary to understand that actually when you break it down it is it's those five pillars that we talk about all the time and I think you'll really see that in today's episode that getting enough sleep that moving your body that finding ways to manage your stress that eating a lot of fiber, a lot of plants and drinking enough water fundamentally changes your health. And it's really is actually that simple. And I think part of me is feeling very riled up at the moment to get very involved with this conversation, because I think it's actually really devastating that we're facing such a crisis in our health as a society with the rise of lifestyle related diseases and the burden that

puts on our healthcare systems, when actually the reality of what we implement on a day-to-day basis is actually really relatively simple so I really hope we can help you with that and as I said I'm just feeling very riled up about it so I couldn't not note that before we start the episode. Yeah it's been amazing for me actually as your depth of understanding around this space continues to increase with all of your studying and it's been so nice for me as you are on this deep exploration and so deep in the detail of it to actually understand that the real life implementation of these can actually be quite simple and it's been empowering for me I think to be able to see how even though the underlying aspects of all of this are so complicated how we can apply these to our day-to-day lives is actually quite simple.

It's extraordinary. It really, really is. And it's just, I don't know, I think you always have those moments, but it truly feels like a privilege to be doing what we're doing at the moment. And I just hope anyone listening is getting a lot from it. So before we start today, just to recap on what we've been up to, things have been pretty busy at delicious they have indeed yep we're busy on all fronts at the moment so we are just about to start finally the construction work on our cafe which we cannot wait to open it's now probably going to be open

right at the start of june i'm really really excited about that our new general manager has just started with us he's fantastic and for anyone visits, I'm sure you'll love meeting her. Our food products business is as busy as ever. We're working on some new projects that will be coming to life in the middle of this year and starting to see some green shoots of the high street come back and the customers that we sell into

where we supply offices and things like that. So it's nice to see that coming back. And then our app is super busy as well. So we're doing some translations for US app subscribers at the moment. So the recipe content is more localized for them. All in cups. All in cups, exactly. And then also working so that our app will be available to corporate customers so that they can give our app to their employees as an employee perk, which we're super excited about too. And also a project that later down the line this year, you'll be able to use it on your computer

as well as your phone. So you'll be able to do all the exercise content on your computer, which I am particularly excited about. So yeah, it's all go, but we had a couple of days off over Easter with the girls this weekend, which was just absolutely heaven.

May is six months this week and she's just really kind of joined the family. She's sitting at the table now. This week, I'm going to start May on her very first solids it wasn't a massive success with Sky at the beginning she actually really didn't like food until she was almost a year now she eats like an absolute champ so kind of crossing my fingers that were a bit more successful this time around May is generally a bit calmer So I'm hoping that will have good implications. So we spend the weekend with the girls in the kitchen, still in semi-lockdown in the UK. So not much else to do, but we've been reading and listening to podcasts in the evening while they're asleep. So I've got

two more podcast recommendations for you guys today, both of which actually came to me via social media and people that I follow on there. So the first one is the Melissa Ambrosini show. I'm not sure if you guys follow her on social media. She's really a beautiful person and just emits really kind of positive energy. And she's pregnant as well at the moment. So for anyone who's interested in that sort of content, you might like her, but her podcast is also really brilliant. She's all about inspiring everyone basically to unlock their full potential and live the life that they want to live and in each episode melissa's sharing wisdom and interview from different thought leaders in this space world-class

performers and experts just from all around the globe on health wellness entrepreneurship conscious living mindfulness self-love conscious parenting relationships so lots of parallels to the sort of content that we share so if you enjoy this you'll probably really enjoy hers it's something that I listen to a lot for a bit of positivity and another one again for inspiring kind of positivity and resilience and general strength is give me strength with Alice living again some of you might know her on social media but she's got a podcast as well and the podcast explores the concept of strength more widely the importance of building physical and mental resilience, and looking at people's stories and looking at things like the power of a morning routine, empowering and mentoring other women,

again, lots of crossovers, the sorts of things that we're very interested in. So if you enjoy this podcast, you'll probably really enjoy hers as well. I think it's a really lovely one. So we'll move into today's podcast and start exploring the brain. So welcome, James. Thank you so much for joining us. It's a pleasure and always a privilege to be able to deliver some helpful messages to people like you and I in the general public. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed reading the book. I think it's, I'm absolutely fascinated by the body and by our health. And I think, you know, you put it very, very clearly just how extraordinary the brain is. And you said, you know, it's quite simply the most complex structure known to man. In fact, most neuroscientists

scoff at any notion that we understand it. We don't even understand the brain of the worm. And that our brain makes 35,000 decisions every day. It's about 2,000 decisions of every waking hour. It's got 86 billion nerve cells, 15,000 synapses or connections that connect to another 85 billion support cells, 528,000 miles of transmitting fibers. I mean, it's mind-blowing. It's absolutely extraordinary. You imagine taking the communication fibres of my brain or your brain and stretching them out into a single fibre, it would go to the moon and back. Wow. Oh my God, that is extraordinary. Absolutely astonishing. And all the research brought this home to me, and that's the research for the book and i say in the book that at its

simplest the brain is a bag of salty water starts off as a tube in the embryo turns over on itself from front to back and then develops sideways to give you the two halves of the brain and at its thickest that tube is only five millimeters and it's folded multiple times in order to pack the amount of matter inside the cranium. When you think that within that very thin watery layer, there are all these connections, as you say, and all these fibers are all working away. And we don't understand it fully. Two years ago, they discovered a new kind of cell that's never been found in any other brain on the planet. It's called the rosehip cell because it looks like a little rosehip bush. And we're not sure entirely

what it does, but it might explain why we can't translate from what we see in animals to what we see in humans, because there ain't nothing like humans it is absolutely extraordinary and that's exactly how I felt when I was reading your book so one of the things that you talk about is the impact of chronic low-level long-term inflammation which I think is something that we're learning more not just on brain health but our human health in general actually having a big impact. And this applies at every single age, but the older we are, the worse we are at dealing with it. I wondered if you could give us a bit of an overview, if we started there, about where that comes from

and how it starts to impact our brain. Sure. Inflammation is a process in the body. We're all familiar with, we get a bee sting or a cut on our finger, it swells, it gets red, it's painful. And that's because the immune system is dealing with that injury and is producing changes in the tissues to try and resist the effects of that injury. Now, if we measure certain molecules in the blood, they tell us how much inflammation there is in our systems. Chemicals like CRP, C-reactive protein, or fibrinogen, or cytokines. In COVID, we've all heard about the cytokine storms. Cytokines are markers of inflammation in the body. Now, if I measured the inflammatory markers in your two bodies now by taking a sample of blood,

it would be much lower than in mine because of the age difference. And that's true across the population. So inflammation in the body, this is what we call chronic low-level inflammation, rises with age. Now, we know what causes inflammation. For example, every time you eat a meal, your inflammation in your body rises. Why? Because you're introducing foreign objects into the body that don't belong there and all kinds of microbes in the food. So as you eat, the inflammatory levels rise. If you don't get enough sleep over a protracted period of time, I can guarantee you your inflammatory markers will be high. Those are just two examples of where changes in our lifestyle can alter the

inflammatory levels of our body. The secret is keep it down. Exercise keeps inflammation down in the body. And that's all something we can do. People dread hearing you've got to exercise to look after your health or your brain. Oh, I've got to go out in the rain. It's painful. I've got to run three miles. I've got to go to the gym. My personal trainer's going to handle me. No, you don't need to do any of those things. You just need to raise your heart rate to about 70, 80% of its maximum for a period of 30 minutes. And you can do that brisk walking, cycling, all that kind of stuff. And that brings down the level of inflammation in the body sitting down raises the levels of inflammation in the body i can guarantee you if you sat down for eight hours took a sample of blood at the start a sample of blood at the end the inflammatory

molecules in the body will be higher why does that increase whilst you're sitting because there's a lack of blood flow to the tissues so the perfusion the rate what we call the rate of perfusion of blood to the tissues is lower and they are less oxygenated and oxygenation will bring down the inflammation i thought one of the things was interesting as well was the very specific things that exercise can help you with i think you know we're always told i guess the more basics endorphins make you happy exercise exercise produces endorphins, for example. But actually, you're saying that studies are now starting to show that aerobic activity actually enhances cognitive function in ways it creates neurogenesis, but then it's also involved in

things like glucose control. So it's really fundamental in impacting such a huge swathe of your bodily functions. Yes, it is. If I can deal with the point about neurogenesis, this is the development of new brain cells. We know that exercise provokes neurogenesis. Now, the traditional scientific thinking, and again, we're only talking about 20 years ago, around the production of new cells in the brain,

is very different. It was once believed that you were born with as many brain cells as you were ever going to have. Two years ago, less than two years ago, 2019, in Nature, the world's most prestigious scientific journal, a paper was produced by a Spanish group from one of the universities in Madrid to show that right the way through life, even into your 90s, the brain is producing new

cells. And most of them are produced in a region of the brain called the hippocampus. It's part of what we call the limbic system, but it's absolutely essential to memory, short-term memory and long-term memory. So as you're listening to me, the only reason you can understand the end of my sentence is because your hippocampus is remembering the first words i've said and is monitoring it throughout the sentence that's how important the hippocampus is so all these new cells are being produced right the way through our life inflammation suppresses that so the more inflammation you have in the body the more your environment your lifestyle and the things that you do or the diseases which develop raise inflammation the more it suppresses neurogenesis and the worse the health of the brain is and when you exercise you're able to have neurogenesis

yeah now they've even worked out the pathway for this so So as the muscles exercise, they generate certain proteins, which are cerebrophilic. They're produced in the muscles, but their role is in the brain. One's called erypsin. The other one is called caphepsin B. There are others. They travel to the brain and inside the cells, in the chemistry of the cell, they produce brain-derived neurotropic factor, BDNF. So this is a molecule which kicks off the production of new cells and the brain becomes flooded with it. So if you want to max out on BDNF, run at 80% of your fastest speed for 40 minutes. That'll just about top it up. You'll max it out if you do that. Now, we've always known that active people seem to be more alert mentally as they get towards the end of

their lives. Now we're beginning to understand why. And you can kickstart that process in your 20s and your 30s and continue it throughout your life and reap the rewards. Yeah, never too early, never too late. So you can do it in childhood, you need to be doing this. Children are less active now than ever they were in the history of humanity in the Western world. That's hugely detrimental to the development of the central nervous system. I talk about it in the book, generates obesity and obesity raises levels of inflammation and inflammation suppresses neurogenesis and normal functioning of the synapses in the brain. So all this indolence, sitting around, not exercising sufficiently, is really culpable. It's responsible for a lot of our lifelong trajectory for our brain health. heard only in Canada, reach great Canadian listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a

pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn ads. Email bob at libsyn.com to learn more. That's b-o-b at l-i-b-s-y-n dot com. It's absolutely fascinating. And I think it's one of those things you mentioned a few minutes ago about the fact that people don't really like being told to go out for a run and necessarily being told what to do. And I definitely appreciate that and relate to that. I think anyone would. But the science, as you say, you know, whilst it's relatively new, it's really crystal clear

that we need to be doing these things for our health. I imagine it's not what everyone wants to hear, but how do you feel you start to convey this message of personal responsibility, but also collective responsibility in terms of taking care of the NHS, in terms of looking after our healthcare systems across the world, where actually we as individuals do need to take this information on board. And we do need to start to implement it into our lives in order to mitigate so many of these diseases, which we all, as you say, live in fear of. Generating that outcome so that we change the level of brain ill health in society is a long, slow process. And it starts with awareness. So it's all about getting out the messages that it's not inevitable that your brain is going to decline with age and that we can do something about it. And you've got to think about your brain every day in the same way that you

think about your heart every day. That's the first step, raising the level. Think brain health. If we can get everyone in all sectors, that's ordinary people, healthcare professionals, private companies, public sector charities, the government, all regarding this as a really important health issue, then everybody will become aware of it. Of course, when you're aware of it, and those myths, the big three myths have gone, then you can start to think, well, what should I be doing about it? Then the next step is to show people in quite plain, unbiased, non-righteous language that all the things that you have to do to get your brain health are actually pretty good. How about getting a good

night's sleep? Pretty good, isn't it? What about spending an hour or so out walking the dog or visiting the countryside? That's pretty good. How about learning to do something new, like learning a language? How about learning to dance? I love dancing. It's a fabulous, probably one of the best cognitively stimulating activities there is. All these things are enjoyable. You've just got to get people to realize that if I do all these enjoyable things and I don't abuse my body or my brain, then I'm going to be set on a decent trajectory. So just to pick up, there's so much to pick up on there. I'd love to pick up on how your brain's involved in glucose control first, and then maybe we can move on to how the idea of

the second brain and the gut and the gut brain axis and the connection there and why that's so important again for looking after your brain there's strong evidence that independence of insulin the brain is actually a center of glucose control and we're very fortunate because the brain has learned to manage not just on glucose on its own. If you fast for a long period of time, glucose levels in the brain will fall away to zero. If you're not eating, all the energy reserves will be depleted to the point where the brain is now not operating on glucose, it's operating on ketones. Many of your listeners will be familiar with the keto diet. Well, ketones are a very valuable backup fuel for the brain. And they developed because of our hunter-gatherer evolution.

So the brain was forced into feast and famine. And the brain had to evolve to live on something else other than glucose. And it operates on the basis of oxidizing ketones for its energy. We never get there in modern life. We never challenge the brain. We never throw this switch to go from glucose to ketones. But you can. I do it. You could do it. So is there interesting research then about intermittent fasting and brain health? There is. Mark Mattson at Johns Hopkins University and the chief neuroscientist at the National Institutes of Health, biggest research organisation in the world. And he produced a paper which showed that in all animal studies intermittent fasting reduced the incidence and in populations the prevalence of chronic illnesses things like diabetes cancer brought them down in

animals in humans the first trial on intermittent fasting and brain health is taking place now what level of fasting are they exploring in that? I believe he's using what's called the 5-2 method of fasting, which is five days eating, two days not eating. Well, when I say not eating, you have 500 calories a day. And that would say that you have breakfast in the morning and then nothing through the day except plain tea and water. I do it slightly differently. And the way I do it is I don't eat after 8pm and I don't eat before 10am. So that's 14 hours of non-consumption food. So by the time I get up in the morning, I'm probably on ketones. By the time I've done my two to three mile run, I'm definitely on ketones. I must admit, it's not easy. I've run in the afternoons when I've done my two to three mile run, I'm definitely on ketones. I must admit, it's not

easy. I've run in the afternoons when I've had something to eat and the perceived exertion of it is less. By the time I get to breakfast, I'm ravenous. I'm fortunate because I'm working at home. But then many people are working at home and can do this. All I have when I get up is a cup of coffee because the caffeine will help to mobilize any energy reserves in my body that I need while I'm running. So the caffeine helps the exercise process. And in any case, you shouldn't be drinking coffee before nine o'clock in the morning. As we wake up, the level of arousal in the brain is rising to make the brain active, to get us alert. And part of the stimulant for that is a hormone called cortisol. That's a stress-related hormone, but it's also got this

other function, which is to raise the level of arousal. And it kicks off at about six in the morning, starts to rise dramatically. By nine o'clock, it's done. So after nine o'clock, you haven't got any cortisol, that's the time to have your coffee. Now, I'm not being prescriptive and put people say, oh, I don't have my coffee first thing in the morning. You know, I'm finished. Have your coffee. I'm not one of these righteous people who tells people you should do this, you shouldn't do that. That's not the way to go, right? But if you can, it's better for most people if you have your cup of coffee at nine and then drink it between nine o'clock and two in the afternoon. I had my last coffee at lunchtime, two in the afternoon.

Why? Two cups of coffee is about 200 milligrams of caffeine. By the time you get to 10 o'clock at night, it's only reduced it to about 100. A hundred milligrams of caffeine in the blood is easily enough to keep you awake. We had a guest called Matthew Walker, who has a fascinating book on sleep. His advice was to not drink coffee past 10 o'clock in the morning. So that leaves a pretty tight window. You see how generous I am. Yeah, exactly.

James, could we just, you mentioned cortisol there and stress. I feel it leads us on quite nicely to stress and the impact of that on the brain as well. Yeah, stress is a real killer. But we have to clarify, first of all, what we mean by stress. In psychology, there's a law called the Yerkes-Dodson law, which says that arousal levels will rise to a peak and then decline. Everybody knows, if you talk to people or you ask yourself, when am I at my limits for stress? You know. And then after that, the brain has got

its own stress circuits, but the deep physiological stress responses, one nervous and one hormonal, have dramatic effects on the body. These responses in the body are raised heart rate, raised levels of hormones, raised blood pressure, agitation, behavioral changes, all that. They were first noted by a German physiologist called Hans Selle in 1936. And he monitored the effect of stress by weighing the adrenal glands of rats.

So he stressed out rats and then weighed their adrenal glands and what he found was as the stress increased their adrenal glands to pump out more hormones to cope with the stress then he got to a point where the stress was so much the adrenal gland collapsed and it shrank to nothing and they were wasted and then eventually that was the exhaustion phase and eventually that led to death so stress can kill you and we know that there's a dramatically strong relationship between stress and chronic ill health starting with gastritis to going on to a gastric ulcer to raise blood pressure to obesity stress is a is a real killer and it inhibits the brain. So if you are greatly stressed or if you have a huge rise in emotional reactions

like anger, fear, rage, disappointments, all these chronic feelings that you have, they inhibit the frontal lobes of the brain and prevent you thinking from clearly. So one of the big messages in the book is you've got to manage your stress levels. How do you do that? It's absolutely astonishing. Yoga, meditation and mindfulness, I knew they were beneficial. For general health, they're beneficial. But when I looked at the research on the brain, it changes the structure of the brain.

The brain almost glows. You know, it does well out of yoga. And if you measure the cognitive responses, things like mini mental state examination, attention, memory, reaction speed, all these things. For those people who manage their stress with yoga, their cognitive function is much better. Music to my ears. Yeah, that's good news for Ella because Ella's an absolute devout yogi. Yeah, that's how I manage my stress. You'll maintain your brain function throughout your life as you do that. Some people use alcohol.

Now, that's a very interesting issue. Moderate alcohol drinking is beneficial to brain health, no more than the recommended daily allowance. So I believe it's one drink per day for women and two drinks per day for men. Now, for politically correct reasons, that's morphed into two drinks a day. Some people do not like to draw a distinction between men and women because they think, well, you can't treat men and women differently. But actually, there's sound physiological reasons why it's one drink per day, small drink, five ounce glass of wine, one gram of alcohol, one unit for women and

two for men. One gram of alcohol is one unit. So you have to do a bit of homework and find out what's in your shot of whiskey or what's in your pint of beer. But one of the reasons why moderate alcohol drinking is good for the brain is it opens up the drainage system of the brain called the glymphatics and allows toxins to drain out of the brain. But if you go too far and you drink too much every day, you'll damage the brain. Now, people say, oh, can't I ever have more than two drinks? Yes, you can. The odd eccentricity, the odd aberration will not matter. That one occasion over the whole year or two or three of them over the whole year or over your lifetime in the big scheme of things is not going to damage your brain health. It's not the single things you do. It's the single things you do every day. And then how does that lead into gut health because obviously there are several things which obviously we know aren't great for gut health and that's clearly intricately connected with the brain which I

think is one of the most interesting topics and obviously too much alcohol is one of them but what else is it that impacts on the gut and how again does that connect to the brain and why does that matter? I'll just give an introductory thought to your listeners. We all know what's in the colon. It's the last stage of digestion. And it's basically food remains, cellular remains, and trillions of bacteria. And it's a salutary thought that it's the contents of your colon which are determining to a large degree your mood and your feelings and even the way you think. That is an astonishing finding. We've only known that since 1998 when I think it was a scientist called John Kryan went to San Diego to a conference of neurologists, parachuted himself in. He was a microbiologist and tried to convince them

that the bacteria in the colon was a factor in Alzheimer's disease. Now we know that he was on the right track. For example, it was only found out in the last 20 years that a hugely important brain hormone called serotonin, it's a happy hormone. It actually balances our emotions. Lots of serotonin, lovely balanced sense of well-being. 10% of it's made in the brain. 90% of it is made in the intestine by the bacteria which are living in there.

When you stress yourself, you stress your bacteria. They eat what you eat. They exercise with you. They sleep with you. So you have to look after these things because they're enormously important. And we know that they also affect memory, attention, and global cognitive alertness. That's an astonishing thought, that this churning pharmaceutical factory in the depths of our bowels is actually making us feel good or bad. Bad food, bad mood. If you give the bacteria in your gut a kicking it will give your brain a kicking

so what do the bacteria want how can you support them low bioavailability high fiber food so plant based foods lots of plant-based food lots and lots of plant-based foods with lots of fiber fiber in them because modern western food which was set in process after the war became highly refined why because in the western world there'd be food shortages right through the war europe starved britain starved america didn't do so badly so after the war people became wealthier they could spend more money on food so processed food became the order of the day, and it was highly refined. And all the fiber was taken out of it. It was high fat and high sugar. So by the time you'd eaten it, swallowed it, digested it in your stomach,

and your small intestine had taken all the goodness out of food, there was nothing left for the bacteria down below. So we're starving them. So you've got to un-starve them. You've got to feed them with this high-fiber diet. And what I mean by low bioavailability means that instead of 80% of the food being absorbed in the small intestine, only half of the food is absorbed into the small intestine.

So you stay leaner and you don't put on weight so much and the composition of those bacteria are such that one person can eat a diet and put on weight and another person can eat the same diet and lose weight it's really important that we look after them and you've got to eat diverse foods so the biggest range of food that you can possibly eat. 75% of all the world's food comes from five animal species and 12 plant species. And there are 300 edible plants at least available to us. It's just astonishing. It really is.

I think the fact that 90% of messages go from the gut to the brain and just 10 from the brain to the gut is so telling in terms of how we start to think about these things that don't seem tangible in terms of what you put in the kitchen actually impacting on every part of your health and James honestly this has been so fascinating we could go on for hours and hours so many more questions but just so appreciate your time today and thank you so so much for talking to us yeah thank you so so much james it's been a real honor it's an absolute pressure and if i could just say at the end please visit the website www.brain.health and i don't know if i'm allowed to say this but i'm going to say it anyway please buy my book

for the book in the notes for everyone that's listened. It's been absolutely fascinating. Thank you so, so much. Thank you, James. It's a pleasure. And we'll be back again next Tuesday. Please do share the episode with anyone you think this will be helpful with. And we will see you back here next week.

Thanks, guys. You're a podcast listener, and this is a podcast ad heard only in Canada. Reach great Canadian listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn ads. Email bob at libsyn.com to learn more. That's b-o-b at l-i-b-s-y-n dot com.