The Wellness Scoop - How Women Can Support Women

Episode Date: October 6, 2020

An empowering conversation on the power of supporting one another with Cyndie Spiegel. We talk about turning complex emotions like jealousy into positive paths of self-awareness, grace and curiosity; why supporting one another starts with compassion for ourselves and overcoming imposter syndrome; how to build bridges even when we feel uncomfortable and why it’s ok to be ourselves, even if that doesn’t make everyone happy. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit BetterHelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com. Hi, and welcome to the Deliciously Ella podcast with me, Ella Mills. So today, I think it's a really positive conversation. Let's be honest supporting one another is just magic. You know nothing can beat a culture of kindness, of understanding, of compassion. A space in which we can really hold each other up, encourage each other and really try and find the good in those we meet and that's obviously the kind of world that we all want to live in and something that's going to nurture our mental health and our well-being. And it's exactly what we're talking about on today's episode, how we can best support each other and create that kind of dynamic.

Because on the flip side, being realistic, there is a narrative that can exist. And I think we see it particularly between women. And it's a narrative that implies a sort of culture of jealousy and comparison. And I think that sense of jealousy and comparison and insecurity in ourselves can create a sort of cattiness that I think we'd all, again, rather didn't exist in the world. And I really do remember that, especially growing up. I think, you know, teenage girls in particular can have a really hard time with that. And especially, you know, in the world of social media today and the comparison culture that that creates. I think, you know, we've probably all felt those quite complex, sometimes negative emotions like jealousy at times. And what's interesting talking to our guest today is how we can then misdirect those feelings at other people

and let that sense of insecurity we feel in ourselves or sense of being uncomfortable in a situation end up making someone of being uncomfortable in a situation end up making someone else feel uncomfortable in turn but more importantly as well stop various people and ourselves creating relationships and building bridges in the way that gives us all so much and takes the world so much further so today we're really talking about how we can change that about building those bridges about why building a compassionate and generous relationship with ourselves is actually the first step in supporting all women, empowering all women and creating a really positive relationship. And our guest Cindy Spiegel speaks so well about it and we're going to be talking about everything from the importance

of accepting ourselves for who we really are and in doing so accepting that it's okay not to be liked by absolutely everyone but also how to empower others success how not to let that take away from anything in our own lives the importance of things like curiosity imposter syndrome tall poppy syndrome and questioning those traditional male and female roles within the home so it's quite a rich conversation one that I hope you guys will really, really enjoy. As I said, I think she speaks really, really brilliantly on the topic and hopefully it will give you some good food for thought and happy listening. Welcome, Cindy. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. So a friend of mine sent me your TED talk a couple of months ago and it just resonated with me so much and I felt you just had to had to

get you as a guest to come and talk to everyone today because I felt that everything you shared would resonate so much with our listeners on the importance of creating that kind of necessary shift for women to collectively thrive and how important it is to empower women to build bold conversations and and share really truthfully and dismantle that narrative of cattiness and bitchiness and of women not supporting women because we just hear it too much. Yeah, it's very real, isn't it? It really, really is. It just feels like such a shame. And to me, it feels like such a kind of perpetuating cycle is that that's sort of become the narrative. And so we assume that that's what it will be. Yeah. And I really think so much of it is fear

based. You know, we're afraid of what others will think of us. So we often strike first. There's, there's just so much, it's just much deeper than I think it seems on the outside when folks say that women are bitchy and catty, because I don't think that that is innately true. I think that that's something that has been taught to us in many ways, but I'm sure we'll get into that. And so where do you start with looking at this conversation? Because it's so complicated and has so many different kind of starting points. Where is it that you start with looking at this in order to dismantle it and change it? I think the first place that we could begin is from a place of humanity and a place of empathy, right? As women, we are connectors. We're mama bears,

we're connectors. And I mean that in the sense of whether we have children or not, you know, we are innately connecting with other people. And I think when we can come back to our humanity, you know, we realize what's most important to us. And every single one of us wants to be accepted. We do. Even if we say we don't, I really believe that we do. And I think that when, as women, we can look at one another, not as others, but as ourselves, we really begin to see each other differently, because we see you as ourselves. And when we do, we're looking at ourselves, we're speaking to ourselves, and we wouldn't necessarily want to see you as ourselves. And when we do, we're looking at ourselves, we're speaking to ourselves, and we wouldn't necessarily want to see you as other or think of you as other. And I think

that, quote unquote, othering Ella is what gets us into trouble. You know, when we find ways to separate ourselves from other women, whether it be she's too attractive, she's not attractive enough, she's successful, she's not, you know, she's not successful enough. We find ways to other. And when we do that, we are no longer connected. Absolutely. And I think it's so true. And there was a bit where you were talking about the importance of recognizing and acknowledging how you feel and that those feelings often actually aren't about others anyway, they're about ourselves. And you know, what do you think when a really beautiful woman walks into the room, you know, do you feel insecure possibly in yourself and as a result, feel negatively towards her, even though she's not done anything wrong? Yeah. And that's kind of, that's always

the first step, right? It's recognizing and acknowledging how you feel. So when someone walks into the room or when you start to cringe at all, when you see another woman, for whatever reason that may be, because we're human and that happens. The first step is always about questioning inwards and making it not about that other woman, because it really never is, right? It's always about the feelings that you have about yourself that that woman is bringing out in you, right? So I gave an example in that talk about how I was at this event in New York City and this beautiful woman walks in and I think it was maybe October, November. It was a chilly New York fall day. Now I work in the space of women's empowerment. I build communities for a living. But my gut instinct was to be really catty.

My instinct was to look at her and go, how dare she wear that out, you know, on a night like this in New York City in a group of women? Why doesn't she put some clothes on? Now, I know better, but that was still my instinct. And so it took me a second, even as someone who was in this space and does this work, to correct myself. And the first thing I did was I stopped. Obviously, this was internal. And I said, Cindy, what is it? What is the real issue here? You know, and I think sometimes that first step of just recognizing and acknowledging how we feel is about giving ourselves permission to be honest about what we feel, right? Jealousy is something we're not taught to speak kindly of. Completely. And I think one of the challenges is so often when we have a reaction to someone else,

it's really something in us that we're reacting to, as you said. And it's something, an emotion like jealousy, for example. But I feel like we're brought up to feel like jealousy is such a negative emotion. And you talk on other points, which I really liked about, you know, how girls are brought up to be nice. And so you don't have, you know, you're not really allowed to have those sorts of feelings. And I kind of feel like we don't have the ability to deal with jealousy and and fear and and kind of an imposter complex almost and as a result we deflect it outwards and and you talk about the importance of kind of redirecting those those emotions into ourselves and then into kind of empathy and grace and curiosity and I wondered how you change a more negative say emotion like jealousy into a more positive one like empathy or curiosity.

I think first it really comes down to questioning, right? Questioning yourself. And this takes self-awareness because it's not always comfortable, right? Because once we start to question ourselves and our own bias and our own thoughts and beliefs, it means we sometimes are going to look at ourselves in not the most positive light and that's okay, right? Because this is as much as it is about redirecting our feelings, we first have to acknowledge before we can redirect. And by acknowledging, that means we're shedding a light on ourselves, right? When we redirect those feelings, that doesn't mean that we don't take responsibility for

what we thought or believed. So we really have to learn that fine balance between seeing our truest selves, which isn't always perfect and it isn't always beautiful, holding ourselves accountable and responsible, but also at the same time, not allowing that to change the way we behave. All it is is an acknowledgement, right? that to change the way we behave. All it is, is an acknowledgement, right? As yogis, we know this. I mean, there's so much about the thoughts that we have and how many of the thoughts that we have are not actually true anyway. And so I think we have to think that way about redirecting our feelings and emotions. You know, that self-awareness that it takes to say, hey, what is this feeling that's coming up for me? And what does this really

mean? Because clearly this is a fear that I have about myself. How can I redirect this? It takes time, it takes patience, but it also takes a certain gentleness towards ourselves to be able to do that and to do that with grace. And one of the things I really liked is you said that in doing that, then the next step is sort of actually just to reach out to other people. And again, I think sometimes when we're feeling insecure, and I know I can do this, especially if you walk into a busy room or say it's a friend's birthday or something, and you don't really know other people there, you can feel insecure and you can feel nervous. And as a result, you shut yourself away and you don't reach out to those around you and you don't start to kind of instigate those bridges

and those connections. And sometimes I wonder if that's one of the things that can create the negative conversation is people can come across as standoffish, but actually it's not standoffish, it's actually insecure. Yes, that's exactly right. I love that you said instigate those bridges. That's a beautiful way to put it because this idea of reaching out, and again, this comes back to that kindness that we really have to show ourselves when we have these feelings and emotions, particularly about ourselves or other women, is it is in those moments where it's most uncomfortable, but we are really being called to reach out, right? So you use that perfect example of walking into a room where there's tons of people that

you don't know, you know, and our innate response is to kind of crawl up into ourselves, you know, to cave into ourselves. And so I challenge all of us to, instead of doing that, shoulders back, head held high, walk into that room and say hello to a stranger. No one in their right mind is going to be unhappy with that, right? And hey, you might come across that one grumpy person, but I doubt it. And if you do, you do it again. You go back and you speak to the next person. But I can tell you there's nothing like that feeling of acceptance that comes when you reach out to somebody and you realize that they see you where you are and that you no longer have to cave in on yourself in the back corner. That doesn't mean you have to make friends with every single person in the room, but it does mean that you're creating a

space and a bridge for connection that is inherently necessary in doing any of this work of connecting with women. Completely. And it always feels so scary. And then you do it and you're like, oh, okay. It gives you a good confidence boost. And one of the things I wanted to touch on as well is imposter syndrome, which we've talked about before, but I feel like feels like an important part of this narrative as well. And kind of that tall poppy syndrome and why we get too uncomfortable with people when they start to succeed. Yeah. So we know that imposter syndrome is again, fear-based, right? That stems from us. It comes from feelings that we're afraid to even acknowledge, like jealousy, like fear. Often it is inherent because we are not taught to be competitive.

We're not taught that competition is okay. And I think that breeds a certain relationship with adult women, where we see somebody who is thriving and succeeding and our innate response is that we are not enough and they are better in some way. And obviously, because they're better in some way, we don't quote unquote like them. And I think there's so much to be done about introspection and reflection and doing work that matters to us. And when you do work that you value and that really speaks to your core values, it really shifts the way we see the way imposter syndrome works, right? Because it can no longer, when you're doing work in the world, or you're

showing up in the world as you truly are, it's very hard to feel like an imposter for very long, because you're not BSing, right? You're showing up in your most authentic self. And when you do that, you're truly reflecting and living your values. That imposter syndrome starts to fall away. But I think where it creeps in is where we find ourselves trying to fit into spaces and boxes that were not created for us. And because those boxes don't fit, we're doing work in the world that we didn't decide to do. We're spending our time in ways that we didn't decide to do we're spending our time in ways that we didn't decide to you know we do ultimately end up feeling like imposters in some way and do you think part of that comes from the fact that there is this kind of quite strong narrative still even today what a woman is and that sense of you know we've got to be nice we've got to be this and for example I think for women often like being very assertive, especially in the workplace, they can be seen as like domineering and the words like ambitious

aren't always kind of positive with women. And yet they often are with men. And of course, these are stereotypes, but I think they're things that we've all come across in our lives and our careers. And I don't know, it feels like women sometimes feel like they have to behave in a certain way. And as a result, it feels kind of uncomfortable sometimes if people are breaking that, if we're nervous to break it ourselves. A hundred percent. I think so much, you know, we inherently want to be nice. We want to be liked. And I think that being liked fights very much. It pushes against our own internal boundaries because whether or not we are choosing to be nice in that situation is sometimes fighting with ourselves, right?

Because we want to say the things that we believe to be true, but we also feel like culturally that's not accepted, so we should shut up. We should shut up and sit in a corner and be the nice woman. Don't speak too loudly. And as old-timey as that may sound I still think that that exists today particularly in corporate America but beyond that as well and we have to we really have to find a way and find allies that allow us to stand up for ourselves and with others and of course this is the ultimate generalization and you know gender is something that's becoming increasingly fluid. And I appreciate that. And in a way it's, it's reductive to ask the question, but do you feel

like that's much more the case with women than it is with men? I feel men are much more comfortable with not being liked. I definitely see that with my husband and men in my life. And it's not that they want people to not like them. Of course, they're not going out of their way to be actively unkind and create enemies. But I feel like they're more comfortable quite often with kind of who they are and just being who they are. And if people want to be their friend, then they do. And if they connect, that's great. And if they don't, equally, that's great. And I feel like as women, I think we do seem to have this bigger innate desire for people to like us. And as a result, I think possibly we bend to have this bigger innate desire for people to like us. And as a result, I think possibly we bend ourselves into people that we're not in order for people to like

us. And then I think it's very kind of energy sapping as well, because then you can be putting on a front and then you're not really enjoying yourself and you're not really enjoying your time with say those people or those friends, because that's not really who you are, but you're kind of a bit scared to possibly let go of that for fear of not being part of something. I think you're a hundred percent correct. You know, first of all, yes, of course we see this more in women than we do in men. And it goes back again to how we were raised. Again, we, we raise little girls and I think that this is shifting. I know that this is shifting with my own community and their children. But we raise little girls to be nice. And we take that into adulthood.

And so that is exactly what we do. We bend and shift to fit everybody else's expectations of us. And the challenge with that becomes that at some point, we get to a certain age where we don't even know who we are anymore. And then we have to undo 30 years, 40 years, 50, 60 years of bending to fit into somebody else's box. You know, I made a t-shirt a few years ago and it says, I am not for everyone. And it's become sort of my, my quote in a lot of ways, because it's this idea that Ella, what you were speaking about with men, it's not, you know, most men are not going out saying, I don't give a shit if you like me, but there is definitely a sense of, you know, it's okay if you don't like me, I'm going to stand up for who I am, I'm going to be who I am, and I'd love to be friends, but if not, that's okay too. And I think as women,

we really have to step into that more. We have to really step into this ideology of you are not for everyone. And so what? Yeah, completely. And I think I found this year really illuminating in that as well. And I just actually went to pull up the study as I remember reading about it. And I think this year's really shed a light, obviously, on how things work at home a lot more, because obviously lots of us were stuck at home for many months. And there was one study done in the UK at UCL, and they interviewed three and a half thousand families. And they found that mums were only able to do one hour of uninterrupted work for every three hours done by dads. And that mums were doing, on average average much more childcare, much more housework than fathers, even if they had the same work arrangements. And to me, it's quite characteristic

of the fact that I think we're so nice and we're always trying to help and we're taking on so many roles as women so often and are sometimes kind of nervous to push back against that. Not only that, but is that surprising to you? I mean, I've read similar studies and I thought, well, yeah, of course. I mean, is this a study we really needed to do? Everyone could have told you that, right? Yeah, I actually do agree. I think you are correct in that sense. I guess it has just crystallized the fact that we haven't moved forward as much as perhaps we would have liked. A hundred percent. That's exactly right. And for as much as I'd like to believe that things are changing, I think when we talk about it on this larger scale, in so many ways, it really does crystallize for us. And we see this and we see these studies being done around the world.

And you know, it's crushing at one point, because I think on a smaller scale, you know, we look at our I can look at my own community. And I think, oh, yes, we've come so far. But when we look at it on a larger scale, when it really comes down to it, have we? And I think that's likely what we're talking about here. It's like, how much have we actually changed? Completely. And I wondered, I mean, it's such a big question, but what are the kind of key things you see that we need more of in order to kind of truly change that? Equitable relationships, because I think there is still a part of us that, you know, there's this rescue me mentality. And this is not to say that every woman has this, but there is a sense of wanting to be rescued. And at least in my own experiencing, being willing to do things in

relationships that are not necessarily what you want to do, but to please someone else. And I think when we are in relationships, and I am married, I got married in my late 30s. And I have to say the relationship that I have with my husband now is very different than the relationship I had with partners in my 20s. And I think part of that comes down to equitable work. Who's doing what in our household? You know, I'm not going to be the one that's doing all of the food shopping, the traditional quote unquote women's roles. From very early on in our relationships, we have to have those conversations. We have to talk about what we want to do and what we don't want to do

and what's going to serve both of us or all of us as a family if we do in fact have families. But I think if we stick to the traditional roles, which I also need to clarify, you know, if that is a place that you're comfortable, there's nothing wrong with that. But for many of us, we're sticking to these roles and it's not a place that we're comfortable. We don't want to be the ones that clean the house and do the dishes and take care of the children and run them back and forth to school. But that is the role that we've fallen into and we haven't even questioned it. It's so interesting when you talk about it, because on the surface, you wouldn't think how clearly these are all linked. But listening to

talk, it's so clear that this kind of in a way all starts with our relationship with ourselves and creating that inner empowerment to be able to create those conversations to be able to say, you know, look, this is what I'd like to also achieve in my life and having the confidence and feeling self-assured enough to do that. And it's just also incredibly interconnected. And a lot of what we've talked about so far has been on a kind of a mental and an emotional side of this conversation. And I wondered on a kind of physical level about, you know, it seems from what I've understood is again, generally speaking, women often suffer more with negative body image and a sense of shame. And you talk about things like breastfeeding, for example, and the fact that there's still shame around that, which is

extraordinary at this point. And again, it feels like that ties into the conversation as well, is that we need more empowerment there. Yeah. And that really is physical. I think I gave the example about when our little girls are at the beach. Again, it's a very American thing to have kids in bathing suits. We don't do topless very well here because if we do, everybody will stare. Even as a small child, you're not allowed to be topless on an American beach. I mean, you can technically, but folks will question you as a mother if you let your daughter not have a top on when she's five years old at a beach. We're teaching little girls that they should cover up very early on in life, that they have something to be ashamed about. This is the body they were

born into. And we're teaching them at a very young age that they should cover that up. When let's say they have a little brother or cousin or any little boy that's on the beach who runs around in a tiny speedo and no top on. Why is that okay, but I should put on a top or I should put on a bathing suit that covers up. And I think that that behavior and that mentality carries us through life, where we should be ashamed of ourselves. We should be ashamed of who we inherently are. And, you know, I talk a lot of times about the link between that and breastfeeding. If we don't let a five-year-old on a beach with no shirt on, why would we let an adult woman have her boobs out while feeding a child? You know, it sounds so silly, but it's an awful truth,

you know, and I can definitely speak more to what it's like in the US. But there's a shame that is inherent in who we are. And that physical shame of our bodies really has an emotional toll and takes an emotional toll. And that that is ultimately what all of this is about. It's such a cycle, isn't it? Exactly. As you said, that comes back to like your view of yourself and your compassion towards yourself and your self-esteem and that then manifesting on a physical level. And you've written your book, A Year of Positive Thinking, and it's all about transforming your mindset to create a positive life, changing one thought one day, one year at a time. And I think it's so interesting because, again, on the surface,

you wouldn't think these things are kind of inherently linked, but it feels like these things are so linked because that work has to start in yourself. If it's going to then trickle out into your relationships with women around you to then the wider world, and then the way that we speak about women as a whole and in the media and on a much bigger scale. That's right. And I really, I cannot speak enough about starting to do that self-work. And we really, as women, have to start to acknowledge how we feel, honor how we feel, and feel a lot more empathy towards ourselves. The same feelings that we give to others so freely, we have to start to turn that mirror on ourselves, look at ourselves in the mirror and show ourselves a lot more grace. And the sooner we do that, the sooner we have the courage to stand up in the world as who we truly are and allow other women to do the same. And that is a

cycle that we can change, but we do have to start with ourselves first. And so if there was one thing that you'd like to change in the narrative and in the space that you work in, and the idea that there is the narrative that kind of collectively we all rise and rising tides lift all boats, but we're not seeing that's happening. What is the one thing that you would say, if we could all do this tomorrow, that might start to change? Accept yourself for who you are. I love it. So simple.

But when we accept ourselves for who we are, it changes everything because we no longer hold these ideals about the rest of the world. When we feel that courageous and that steadfast in who we truly are, and when we know we are allowed to stand in the world for who we truly are, we no longer have these lowly expectations of others. We allow other people to be who they are as well. And that changes everything. And what practices do you use or do you recommend for people to start to kind of do that work and to create that shift? So from a very practical perspective, I am a huge fan of

meditation. But I also don't think that that term is something that works for everybody. So what I will often recommend is that you just sit with yourself once a day. Close your eyes once a day, put a timer on for 10 minutes. I don't care what comes up for you. But there's that idea that taking just a few minutes away from distraction and going inwards allows you to tap into who you are. And the more you do that, the more you start to get rooted and grounded into what your actual beliefs are. And I know that that may sound simplistic, but it does work and it does take time.

But the first step is really sitting with yourself daily. The second step is, are you familiar with Julia Cameron and Morning Pages? I'm not. Oh my goodness. So it was a book that was written, I believe it was in the early 80s. It's by a woman named Julia Cameron. And we, she's been referred to as sort of the godmother of new age. But she started something in this book called The Artist's Way, which is very much about writing three pages a day free form. Different than journaling because it's very much about like a brain dump on paper, but first thing in the morning every single day. And what starts to

happen is that all of these other ideas that we have in our mind, the thoughts that sort of jumble our mind get put down on paper so that when we walk out into the world, we're actually able to think a lot more clearly. And I think with that thinking a lot more clearly and kind of doing that brain dump in the morning, it allows us to see things for what they are, air see women for who they actually are and not for our stuff that we're carrying along with those perspectives and viewpoints. So believe it or not, as simplistic as it sounds, those are two, right? So sitting slash meditating, morning pages, and finally community of other powerful women. I think the more we can surround ourselves with

women that we admire, the less we feel like imposters. And the less we feel like imposters, the more we feel like we belong and the more we invite other women into our circle. That's really nice. I really, really like the way you described that. I think you're so right because I think the imposter can give you a kind of spiky edge because you feel nervous and the more you can share that and relate to each other, as you said, the more welcoming you're going to be of other people. It's so, so, so true. Cindy, thank you so much for sharing so much wisdom with us today. It has been such a pleasure to talk to you. Just so many brilliant, wise words. And I think what's so interesting is you think of a topic like women supporting women and the importance of changing such a kind of complicated narrative of cattiness and bitchiness and showing

that that doesn't have to be the case. And actually, to some extent, it boils down to something so simple, like how we feel about ourselves. And it just shows how kind of interconnected all these topics are when it comes to our well-being and our mental health and how important it is not to neglect them, because actually, they can have such big repercussions in the world. Thank you so much for having me. And I think everything that we've talked about boils down to one thing, and that's humanity, right? Be human, be human, treat each other the way that you want to be treated.

And honestly, don't feel like you have to be perfect all the time. And that shifts everything. Thank you for having me, Ella. My absolute pleasure. Thank you guys so, so much for listening. I hope you enjoy it. Please do share it with others. I'll put all of Cindy's details and everything she mentioned in the show notes below. And great Canadian listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn ads.

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