The Wellness Scoop - Imposter Syndrome and Self-Doubt

Episode Date: September 17, 2019

70% of women and just over 50% of men have had imposter syndrome, a constant, nagging sense of self-doubt, insecurity and the fear that others think we’re not good enough to be doing what we’re doing. In today’s episode we talk to clinical psychologist Dr Jessamy Hibberd about how to get comfortable being uncomfortable; how to differentiate between everyday fear and the negative thought patterns that hold us back and how to create a new mindset that allows us to celebrate our achievements and escape the mind-trap of insecurity that so many of us fall into. Books: Dr Jessamy Hibberd - The Imposter Cure: How to Stop Feeling Like a Fraud and Escape the Mind-trap of Imposter Syndrome Sheryl Sandberg - Lean In Dr Steve Peters - The Chimp Paradox See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit BetterHelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com. Hi, everyone, and welcome to Season 4 of the Delicious Yellow podcast with me, Matthew Mills, my wife and business partner, and now mama, Ella Mills. Hi, everyone. So welcome back. We have missed you.

We have been pretty busy over the last couple of months. We've welcomed our little daughter, Skye, into the world on the 27th of July, which was just unbelievable. It's been the most kind of intense, incredible rollercoaster couple of months. But we've really, genuinely, I've couple of months. But we really genuinely, I've really missed this. I know Matt has too. And so it feels really good to be back right now. So when we started looking at topics this season, I started obviously to look at what you guys have enjoyed most from the last couple of seasons. And our two most popular episodes ever were on how to make a change and kind of body positivity and creating positive thought

patterns in that part of your life. And so I wanted to kind of body positivity and creating positive thought patterns in that part of your life. And so I wanted to kind of delve deeper into those kinds of topics in this season and something that landed on my desk that felt like the perfect, perfect book to springboard season four was a book all about imposter syndrome. I first came across the concept of imposter syndrome in Sheryl Sandberg's book, Lean In. If you haven't read it, I'm actually just looking at it on a bookshelf right now. It's really good. And she's the COO of Facebook for anyone who doesn't know who she is. And it was really reassuring for me, especially kind of getting started with our business,

to read that someone who was so successful also had that sense of self-doubt and insecurity and this worry that other people would think that she wasn't good enough to be doing what she's doing. And so that is our topic for today, imposter syndrome, how we overcome that and how we stop feeling like a fraud, but also accepting the fact that these kinds of thought patterns are really, really normal. So if you do get those sorts of insecurities, you are absolutely not alone. So welcome Dr. Jessamie Hibbard, who is our guest today. She's a clinical psychologist and we're really honoured to start the season with you. Thanks for having me on the show. Oh it's such a pleasure so obviously welcome and then can we start with the all

important question of how do you actually define imposter syndrome? What is it? So imposter syndrome was first defined by two clinical psychologists, Dr. Clance and Dr. Imis, as a phenomenon in which people felt like they weren't worthy of their success and they had a persistent belief in their lack of ability, skills or competence, despite loads of evidence to the contrary. And I think about it as a faulty belief. So when you're doing anything difficult or challenging, it's natural that you're pushed out your comfort zone. It's normal to experience a bit of fear. Like you say, it's a normal feeling, whereas imposters misinterpret that feeling. And they think if they were ready for this, they wouldn't feel like that. And if they were up to the task, they would be feeling completely confident and confident people wouldn't feel like that. Instead of realizing, like you say,

insecurity and kind of worries they're completely human and everybody experiences it it's not a sign that you're not ready or that you should stop or not try it just means you're normal and can an imposter be anyone or is or is there is it kind of age agnostic and gender agnostic and background agnostic or no so it doesn't discriminate yeah and in the book I focused on, but actually it affects both genders, you know, people from different cultural backgrounds. It can be in work, so students to CEOs, but also it's outside of work. So it's in your relationships, it's in your friendships, it's in your confidence as a parent. You know, as a mother of three, I can definitely relate to it.

When I had my first, I spent a lot of the time kind of not really being sure of what I was doing and feeling like I should know more. Whereas by the third time, you realize that actually no one really knows exactly what they're doing. You're just doing your best and everybody wings it a bit. But will it usually be just in one part of your life that you feel that sense of imposter syndrome or is it something that would typically cut across everything that you do? It's on a continuum. So for some people at the very severe end, they would feel it chronically in every area of their life. But in terms of kind of this statistic of about 70% of people having it, it could be that you just experience it in certain situations. So for some people, if they're public speaking and that's kind of nerve-wracking for them,

then they might feel like an imposter in those situations. Or for some people, they might just feel like it as a parent so so it varies and is it true that it's more common in women than in men yeah it is more common in women and I think when it was first researched they thought it was just women who had it but actually the statistics on it again last year they did a study and it's about 70% of women and just over 50% of men who said they'd had felt it in the last year. So it's a significant difference, but it's not a huge difference. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we were talking about it just before we started recording. And there are four of us, two kind of podcast experts and producers and Matt and I, and we were saying we've all felt it, two men, two women.

Yeah, absolutely. And then my other question was, I also feel like I've come across it, it's really common as well when you're succeeding. Is that true? Like when you start to kind of get to the next level in your career and things like that, that it's often more prevalent in people who are actually being successful? Yeah, exactly. And in a way, when you think about it,

you've got to have something to worry about. So if you feel like you're a fraud in something, you've almost got to be succeeding. And although it's really counterintuitive, you'd think you're doing well, you realise you're doing well, you gain confidence. Actually, it's the opposite. You do well, you fear that you're a fraud, you don't take on board any of your successes because you think it's down to external circumstances like luck or fluke. And so you can't take on board any of your successes because you think it's down to external circumstances like luck or fluke and so you can't connect with it and often the further up you get the harder it gets because you worry there's further to fall and how do you know that something is actually imposter syndrome rather than self-doubt and maybe self-doubt i'm sure isn't the most productive feeling or emotion but there's probably having a bit of it is a good balance to being overly

cocky or overly confident or something with it which could cause maybe recklessness yeah definitely and I think that's the thing about imposter syndrome rather than it just being that you feel like a fraud it's wrapped up in all these other things like insecurity and self-doubt perfectionism overwork procrastination self-criticism. So all these things combine to make you feel like an imposter. And in small doses with self-doubt and insecurity, it is helpful. You know, insecurity and confidence, they're not separate. They're intertwined almost like a circle.

So you feel a bit insecure, you do something, it builds confidence, but it kind of almost keeps going around in that circle. So all of these things, they're not completely bad. There's bits of them that can be useful. It's just as a whole, it can be really overwhelming and debilitating. So looking at kind of, I guess, overcoming those kind of thought patterns, I really liked how you talk about the importance of actually recognising that you're having those thought patterns and normalising that. But then you also talk about kind of five different sort of, I guess, categories that people fall into, which you just mentioned of the perfectionist, the natural genius,

the soloist, the expert, and the sort of superwoman or the superman. Can you tell us a little bit more about those and maybe for any listeners, how they would start to recognise those patterns in themselves? Yeah. So the different competence types came from Dr. Valerie Young. And when she researched it, she found that not all imposters kind of felt things in the same way. And it depended on their competence type. So how they define competence, if they weren't matching up to that, then they'd start to get feelings of being an imposter. And so the first one is the perfectionist. And if you're a perfectionist, you want to get everything right. Anything less than 100% is a failure on your terms. In terms of the expert, they're someone who feels like they need to know it all before they begin something.

So rather than kind of saying, OK, I know enough to get started, they feel like they've got to have read the whole book, you know, completely understood the manual, and then they start. And if they don't know it straight away, they think, I'm not good enough at this. For the soloist, they feel like they've got to do everything on their own for it to count. So if you work as part of a team or you've got a partner on something, they wouldn't count it in the same way. They'd say, oh, well, I didn't do it myself, so I'm not truly good at this. And then in terms of the superwoman, superman, they're like the perfectionist on overdrive. So they feel like every area of their life should be running really well and they should be, you know, kind of perfect in every area. And if anything's falling short again, they get those imposter feelings. And what about the natural genius?

Natural genius thinks that they need to get things right first time and really easily. So probably at school, they found things really easy, being top of the class and they get into the real world and realize easily so probably at school they found things really easy being top of the class and they get into the real world and realize there's lots of people like that and perhaps it's more competitive than they expected when they don't find it so easy to do it first try they feel like oh they must be an imposter they're no good at it so interesting it's so funny having this conversation matt and i were talking about this a lot yesterday kind of actually irrespective of the fact that we're doing this today. But I, obviously first time mum, Sky's five weeks and two days old, still in that space where we're counting day by day. And yeah, I was kind of getting ready to sort of come back to work.

This is our sort of first kind of official work engagement since having her. And we went up to see my sister and we were in the park and Sky was having a bit of a fussy day and I got nervous about feeding in public and ended up just sobbing and sobbing and sobbing and thinking I'm a bad mum you know I'm not getting that right because she's crying and then you know I'm not getting my work right because now I don't have enough time to focus on this and it's amazing how you start this thought pattern yeah and you start thinking my life isn't running as smoothly as I thought I'm obviously not good enough at it rather than you had a baby five weeks ago you of course it's okay that she cries and it's really it's interesting when you start recognizing these things and you can then start separating out

kind of emotion from fact and what's reality and what's just your mind kind of running away from itself and I feel like as soon as you start doing that it is easier to rationalize it and then you're not so hard on yourself yeah literally just thoughts that come and go it's not how things are yeah and that thoughts aren't facts yeah and like you say when you feel like you can have a day with the baby it all goes really well everything falls into place those days occasionally happen but it's not necessarily because you're doing anything that differently there's not this perfect route through life where you can get it right all of the time because life just doesn't work like that and when you accept that and see your thoughts kind of feeding into that idea that you can do it perfectly it helps massively so is that idea of separating kind of emotion and reality sort of slash facts an

important part of kind of I guess overcoming that sense of insecurity yeah. And I think that it's acknowledging that your thoughts and feelings are, of course, really helpful. You know, I wouldn't be much of a psychologist if I said your feelings weren't helpful and that they're all valid. But when you're anxious or insecure or when you're low, those feelings color how you're thinking. And so it has an actual impact on the way you think and excuse things to fit the feeling. So it's like you say, taking a step back and looking at what's actually going on. You know, what's the evidence? What would you think if it was a friend going through the same thing? You know, trying to find a different perspective on it.

And how does avoidance come into it? For imposter syndrome, there's kind of two sides to it. There's the overworking and the perfectionism and on the other side there's this kind of crushing to a halt in terms of procrastination but also avoidance and if you think about the pressure you're putting on yourself you know if you think about those five competence types that you've got these massively high standards that you've got to live up to and if you don't reach them it means you're an imposter sometimes you just don't even want to start and so it can be really limiting as well you know people might not go for a promotion

or they might avoid kind of seeing friends and talking about things it can come in in lots of different ways even in terms of you know alcohol problems um just as a way to kind of almost step out of it for a bit and almost have it on something else i find myself doing that actually quite often that you're you're nervous it's a great excuse yeah exactly you're nervous of something not working or you know and no and so you just don't even try yeah and it is really interesting seeing that I definitely am guilty of that a lot and it's funny when I was starting to put together the um list of guests for this series there was a guest I really wanted to have on I really like their podcast and I was I've put off writing her message for this series. There was a guest I really wanted to have on. I really liked their podcast.

And I've put off writing her message for like three months. I was just absolutely petrified. And I have had it on my to-do list for so long, so long. And I finally did it. And I literally like looked away, turned my phone on airplane mode because I was so afraid of what's the worst thing. Someone doesn't reply or they say,

you know, now I'm busy. Okay. Yeah. But almost when you avoid it, it can build up more in in your head and it has not just the fear associated with it but in a weird way it keeps that kind of idea as possible you know if you don't try it it can't go wrong then it could still happen but really you're not giving yourself even a chance then because I know when you talk about avoidance you also talk about the other end of the spectrum, which is overworking. Can you tell us a bit more about that? again, it comes back to those standards. They've got these really high standards and nobody else has those standards for them. And everybody else, you know, outwardly thinks they look like they're doing really well, but they're not reaching those standards. So they just keep working more and more.

And that's where the perfectionistic tendencies come in as well. Instead of seeing that if they pulled back by probably about, you know, 20, 30% and just did, you know, that amount, no one would notice any difference. And in a way, you know, both those things would notice any difference and in a way you know both those things avoidance and the overworking feed into the problem because they stop the person saying they're not an imposter and if they just did those things in a more normal way or didn't avoid no one would find them out and so how do we get comfortable feeling uncomfortable and and cure imposter syndrome i think that it's recognizing that feeling uncomfortable is part of life rather than trying to dodge it and rather than thinking

there's some perfect formula and kind of route through life that you can do it all perfectly and what are the best tools or techniques that people can use to develop that i think um like you've both said it's acknowledging that insecurity and self-doubt is normal and that you just hear what's going on inside your head and you're not hearing what's going on inside other people's heads. And do you think talking about it's important there? Yeah, definitely talking about it's important because again, you get a chance to see that your vulnerabilities and your flaws that you see in yourself are just the same as other people's and that you're definitely not alone with it it's a bit like the uh the chimp paradox that dr steve peters talks about how you have this chimp which is the kind of emotional side of your brain which is telling you can't do something um and then you have the rational part of your brain which is the part of your brain that information is delivered

to next which is where you really start to rationalize things and think logically yeah it's kind of getting through that isn't it yeah and to really build up that side that is logical so looking at all the evidence and in terms of what you can do really starting to connect more to this person you know the kind of full picture of your life and the whole person that you are so imposters are focusing on say you know 90 negative and spending a lot of time thinking about all the things that they've done wrong or where they should improve and say five to ten percent on the good stuff whereas if you were looking at a picture I know it sounds a bit strange but if you looked at five or ten percent of a picture you wouldn't know what it was

you need to take in the full picture of your life and start to note down all the good things that are happening you know for some people I advise them to actually write down a CV of all of their skills and experience from work to as a friend to as a parent so that they're looking at it there in black and white and really thinking about it without... And do you try and create a routine of re-looking at it every day or anything? Or is it just a one-time exercise? Yeah, go through all of it and look at it.

And then I generally suggest to people to keep reading it regularly and to also then build on it so each day kind of writing down the things that have gone well or that you're pleased with so that you're actively shifting your focus to the things that are going well and the things that you're good at and if you think about the time you're spending prior to this thinking about what you've done wrong then that's what you're more connected to whereas if you start to open up more about it tell people about stuff you're pleased with write it down you're becoming much more connected to that picture of your life and that's a much fairer view it's not ignoring anything that you're unhappy with it's just not focusing solely on it so actually

self-compassion is really really important here yeah and just accepting that you can only do your best like that is all that you can do is just do your best and if you've done your best you can be proud of yourself and there's nothing else that you could do and do you find it's one of those things as well where you know because we've talked about this quite a lot I'm quite obsessed with it um just as a kind of life concept that we live so much in a culture of like when I do this and when I achieve that and you know on one level people say you, when I do this and when I achieve that, and, you know, on one level people say, you know, when I lose weight or when I get that haircut or get that new job. Yeah, exactly. Then, then we think we're going to be happy. And do you find it's the same

that, you know, actually you need to take a step back and have this kind of more holistic, compassionate view of yourself because actually the when I doesn't work here because you're, it's an ever ending cycle, right? Like when you achieve that promotion or you get you know you do really well in that public speaking engagement you're worried about or something like that it doesn't solve it does it no it doesn't and I talked about it actually for my TEDx talk because it was a trap I fell into hugely and after I wrote the first four books that's what I was telling myself you know when I've done these books everything's's going to be different, it's going to change everything, kind of basing my happiness on that. But actually, it means that you neglect the other areas of your

life. And you're kind of waiting for this endpoint, whereas external things can't change your life. Actually, it's what you do each day that makes a difference. And I think that success, and the idea of what success is in terms of being goal-based is really seductive because if it could just change everything well of course you're going to work really hard or lose weight or buy that house whereas when you start to recognize that actually it's what you do every day that makes the biggest difference and it's small steps that lead to the greatest changes it changes things so it's a focus on process rather than outcome definitely that was

one of the other things that I really liked that you talked about was this importance of them relieving the pressure to be perfect yeah because I think that is a really interesting concept and it's something that we've talked about before as well as that you think you have to kind of have a tick box life in a way and like be perfect in every area but again perfection to kind of completely elusive non-existing concept really is it's also so subjective and so that feels like something else that's quite important that we let go of yeah and that perfect doesn't exist there's no life where somebody manages to run their world perfectly and again it has this massive lure and it does have kind of these good parts to it too

you know people like that busyness and the kind of zinginess of it and working hard or everybody thinking they're doing really well but the reality is that it really narrows your life it means you cut lots of things out that would make you feel much better about yourself and also that you never reached it so each time you get closer you reset the goalposts and it moves further out of reach and it's this kind of push to keep doing more but it never being enough and what about failure do you feel like actually embracing failures important as well because obviously no one succeeds at everything no and failure is a huge part of kind of coming to terms with the reality of life again I think with this idea of perfect and say you know seeing people's feeds on social

media or seeing the kind of end result that people show to you, you miss all of the middle bit, that persistence, all of the hard work, all of the failures, all of the mistakes. And when I was researching the book, actually, I couldn't find any stories of success where failure wasn't part of the story, because it's not separate it's what gets you to success and when you start to accept that and almost kind of embrace it and see it's part of finding the right way it makes a massive difference because it takes the pressure off yeah we've we've been on this crazy journey trying to build a food company over the past few years and you know we've learned very very little successes. We've learned an enormous amount from failures. And it's almost the things I think we're most grateful now

is the failures we've had. And as long as we've, you know, making an error we've learned is absolutely, it's great. You've learned so much from it. As long as you don't persist in them, then that's some of the best things that can happen to you. I completely agree. And I think being able to change that cycle of being so only focused on everything has to be a success and actually now just, you know, we prefer to make a decision and be wrong in the decision, but at least have done it. Yeah, exactly. Than not and just kind of sat on the sidelines on something.

And it always moves you forward in some way. Yeah, I think it's empowered us and everyone, I hope that that we work with to have that approach it's definitely been part of our development and something I think that now we're definitely proud of and really want to try and share I'm exactly the same I've had lots of mistakes and failures in my career you know even with this book it wasn't something that just happened I'd written and co-authored six books prior to that, but I wasn't just given this publishing deal. I had two failures that I'd submitted and that weren't taken forward, but actually it gave me more time to develop my writing skills,

gave me more time to develop as a psychologist. And all the research shows that, like you say, it builds resilience. You know what it's like when things go wrong, and it's not the end of the world. Exactly. You actually wake up the following morning and people are still walking down the street and everything's fine even when it feels like the world's crumpling around you the world just keeps going and when you start to get in that cycle it's like actually you know this is all okay yeah i can handle this and that it can hurt but you get over it yeah

it's really empowering isn't it exactly so you think next time something goes wrong it's okay like we're gonna all be okay at the end of it I remember at the beginning of Just Just Yellow though having those feelings so strongly and I remember when the first book came out and it kind of took off in a way that I never expected and I remember I had really bad anxiety it was just after we got together that summer because I felt like such a fraud you know I'd written my first cookbook I was 23 and somehow it was like number one and you were being seen as this kind of expert on something and you're thinking oh my goodness am I you know am I really ready for this and people's you know kind

of looking up to you or kind of taking what you say and it does it took me a really long time to kind of be okay with I guess putting yourself out there and and feeling that people not everyone was looking at you thinking god she doesn't know what she's doing but it was same when we started working together and we were building the food side of the business I'll never forget sitting in a meeting with some of our team and they were talking about all these things and I was sitting there thinking well I've got no experience I'm not qualified you know what's really my role in our business what's really the point of me being here and everyone was talking about FSDUs and I was thinking god I'm so stupid and I went and googled it after the meeting they're talking about freestanding

display units it's like a cardboard box you know and you suddenly you have this kind of great conversation with yourself where you're thinking that they are literally talking about cardboard boxes you just don't know the terminology yet for these cardboard boxes it's okay but I think it's um yeah I have I have definitely found talking about it really important and it was a really big turning point for me when I read Lean In Cheryl Sambo's book and there she is being COO of Facebook saying I sit in the room and I feel that people think I'm a fraud or that I'm not good enough to be here and I remember just thinking well if she thinks that yeah then it's okay that I think that because you know she's all the way up there and I have definitely felt that kind of openness of conversation which is why I like the book so much

it's so so important because if you're thinking 70% of people feel this way yeah then probably quite a lot of other people around the table are also feeling insecure exactly and I think that it's something I can definitely relate to too. And writing the book actually really helped me with it because I'm one of three. If you said to my dad, which of his kids would kind of go and do further study, I would have definitely been bottom of the list. You know, I was on the school bus doing my homework rather than person working really hard at home. And in a way, I think your expectations filter into it. So when I got a private practice, I'd had a really great friend who'd introduced me to this private GP. And I just thought,

I'm so lucky that I've got this contact. You know, if it wasn't for that, I'd never be here. And I wasn't really internalizing the things I was doing. And even with the books, because I didn't see myself as someone who would write books, I just thought, I've just worked really hard. And thanks to working hard, I've got this. Actually, you know, anybody could have done this if they worked hard whereas when I did the book I started to realize that luck contact working hard they are all important and involved but it's not the full story and lots of people you know could start a blog like you did but it's then what you turn it into and what you do with it and when you start to acknowledge those things and count them

instead of just saying you know that it's luck or that you shouldn't be there it really changes how you see it i know whenever people say to me like you know what what do you think made this just the ella of success i always say oh do you know what it was just right time right place yeah and then sometimes i kind of catch myself saying it and i think well you know is that is that really all it was and actually really bad i can assure anyone it definitely wasn't just right time and place. Ella is the most diligent, hardworking, passionate, dedicated person I think I've ever met. But we're really bad at recognizing those qualities and those things in ourselves. So if people have been listening to this and they're thinking, do you know what?

Just like you guys, just like most other people in the world, I've had these feelings of self-doubt, of insecurity, of pushing myself too hard or avoiding it. And these kind of classic tendencies that are so common with this imposter syndrome. And I think I really want to overcome it because actually it's really holding me back or it's actually really getting me down. And it's not very good for my mental health because I keep seeing myself as not as good as everyone else or a failure or, you know, fraud or that I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing. What are the kind of first steps of overcoming it? I think the first step is really trying to externalize that voice. So like we've said, it's not the truth. It's not the fact of what's going on in the situation. It's that imposter voice that's saying those things. And that voice is working against you rather than

for you. And once you start to hear it more, then you've got more of a chance of challenging it and bringing in that more compassionate voice that we've talked about. So number one is basically fact versus fiction. Exactly. And then number two is, like we've already said, kind of building up the facts. So really looking at the true story of your life rather than this kind of tiny percentage of it that you're unhappy with and really starting to take those things on board and talking about them and connecting to them so they become things that you know about yourself and I call that kind of internalizing it so say someone says to you oh that's brilliant it feels great in the moment but unless you take it on board it's just kind of gone you know and left left behind afterwards so you have to spend some time a kind of actually

focusing on the positive and writing them down, but then B, making sure you see everything in context, basically. So you see your whole life and not just your work life or your mum life or, you know, your social life. Yeah, exactly. And recognising what it means to be human so that no one's a 10 out of 10 in every area. You know, when things are going well in one area, perhaps they're not going so well in the other areas, that doesn't mean you're a fraud. It just means're normal just means you're a human being just means you're a human I love that you recognize that you're human and no one's a 10 out of 10 and everything I think that's such a nice little I don't know we should probably all have that printed out yeah or tattooed to our hands or something and I think another good one is actually then testing it out a bit more so

stepping out of your comfort zone, not avoiding. So doing those things that you've been putting off. If you're overworking, pulling back a bit and doing, say, 80% rather than 100% all the time. And just letting yourself see, does it make a massive difference? And generally when I do it with people in the clinic, nobody even notices. And in terms of the things that they've been putting off or avoiding, again, it moves them forward. Most of the time, the failure or, you know, the mistakes, actually, it's not an issue, particularly when it's small things. And you get a chance to kind of build your confidence and then actually take it on board.

But also stepping out of your comfort zone gets you more used to that uncomfortable feeling and recognize it. So the next time you do it, you say, well, last time I felt like this, but actually it worked out all right. And I was really pleased I did it and I was dreading it, but I was so glad afterwards. So that you've got kind of new information to start to feed in that can make a real difference as well. Another idea I think that feeds into it is this idea when you're younger, that when you're an adult, you're going to know how life works. You're going to have everything sorted. You're going to be completely confident and capable. And yet there's no kind of great moment where all of that falls into place and where you suddenly know absolutely everything.

I'm nearing 40 and I don't feel massively different to when I was 20. The change is so gradual. There's no great moment where you suddenly think, right, I'm an adult, even after my first child. I remember me and my husband kind of laughing to each other and being like, we've got a baby, you know, he's ours. And that when I was younger would have been a moment where I'd have definitely thought you'd know you're an adult. And I think that's because we get our definition of what it means to be an adult wrong. It's not knowing it all or being invulnerable it's embracing that

vulnerability and seeing that it can be a strength rather than a weakness it's so funny that you said that because this has literally been my whole kind of thought pattern the last couple of weeks obviously since having sky you have this thing where you're suddenly like oh my goodness i'm a mom that's a dad we're parents are we now grown-ups and you think, I'm not a grownup. I have no idea what I'm doing. Like not a clue. Um, and you're still kind of figuring everything out. And then you're thinking, I've got to figure it out for them as well and set the right example. And it's, it's such a refreshing thing to say as well, which is exactly like, you think you're going to, you know, when I was probably 15, I think I'd hit this moment and have it all together and know exactly what I'm doing and there I was crying in the park yesterday while she was crying as well

and thinking I don't know what I'm doing and actually recognizing that again those things are so normal you're never going to have this moment where you're like okay I'm officially a grown-up I have everything together exactly and outwardly people might look like that but inwardly you're not hearing anything that's going on inside. And so you're comparing your kind of worst moments with other people's highlights, real. And just forgetting that, yeah, no one has it completely together all of the time. And how do you feel like, do you think things like kind of technology and social media are adding to the problem here? Or can you use them in a positive way?

Or kind of how do you see the I guess the modern world is it worsening these sort of imposter feelings I think that it is a problem particularly when you're using social media and looking at other people and imagining their lives as the lives they're showing and as much as everybody says you know I know that's not their real life if you're not feeling great and you're scrolling through everybody else's highlights it definitely adds to those feelings and most people don't post the bad stuff on social media. And this idea of kind of being able to do things perfectly and perfectionistic tendencies, the research shows they are on the rise. So it does feed into it. But I also think that social

media is a great space for coming together and for people to share the not so good bits and the kind of persistence or the difficulties or what goes into things and also to find groups and come together so they feel you're not alone yeah so it's not all bad but it's how you use it I've definitely felt that a lot in the last few weeks actually it's been really nice whenever I've had kind of challenges or something like that and put it on Instagram the number of messages of support you've had of people saying yeah when my baby was this age or when I was having this challenge with my baby and things like that

and it does it's so reassuring and you suddenly think okay I'm not a terrible mum this is just normal and everyone goes through this and it's just part of the process and that is so so so reassuring but as you said and you know we're all guilty but you don't always share pictures of these things and it's funny um uh two nights ago we had just like one of those classic kind of new parent moments where um sky didn't want to go back to sleep it was like three or in the morning or so and matt said well i'm gonna take her out in into her room and i'm gonna we have a rocking chair in there i'm gonna rock her and see if that gets her to sleep. And you go back to sleep now. So he left the room and he walked out. And Austin, our dog, had done two massive poos on the carpet.

And it's just one of those moments. And so then Matt's singing and rocking Sky in one room and I'm scrubbing the carpets in the corridor. And, you know, you don't obviously stop to take a picture for Instagram at that point. And, like, does anyone actually want to see a picture of Austin's poo? I hope the answer is no. But you know, I then put something up on our Instagram stories just say, you know, just as a kind of FYI, like this is all part of the process too. And people were so appreciative of that. And so I think it is important to find that balance.

But it's true, we don't tend to share pictures of it because like, who's going to stop and take a picture of their crying baby? You know, it it's a bit weird I think to take a picture of that or of poo but it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen no and I think what's key is that it's talking about it so with imposter syndrome you're feeling all those things but you're not talking about it so you don't get that chance to share it and everybody say the same back and you feel like you need to be this polished version to be acceptable whereas when you open up and share all the things that aren't working or your worries actually people like that much more they respond much more to that than the person who's got it all together who can be a bit intimidating or daunting yeah

because actually then we can all support each other exactly and it comes back it's much more relatable totally and and we all we're all vulnerable like you we always look at other people and think they've got it all together and then she said it's really reassuring when you realize they don't because she said that's just being human isn't it no one's 10 out of 10 at every moment everything that they do exactly so this has been absolutely fascinating to finish off each episode we just ask our guest what their five top tips are to help our listeners what would you say are your five so i'd say number one is what we've talked a lot about in terms of thoughts aren't facts and just because you think

you're an imposter it doesn't mean you are one so make sure you externalize that voice and look at the evidence and base it on what's actually going on rather than your worries and fears. Number two, that idea that you're not alone and just what it means to be human. When I researched the book, it was linked to so many different parts of our lives. And when you think you're the only one and you don't talk about it, it feels like such a lonely place to be. Whereas when you acknowledge that these things are already normal, it also gives you more control over making changes so you can move forward.

Number three is my motto, what you do every day makes the biggest difference. And I think so often it feels like happiness is what happens to us, you know, and it's not within our control. Whereas actually the research shows 40% of our intentional daily activities is what makes up happiness. And so really the choices that you're making play a huge part in how we feel is a product of all of the choices we make, but particularly

those small choices that each of us make each day. And again, it shows you that there's lots that you can do to make a difference and to feel better more of the time. Number four, even though there's lots that you can do to feel better, don't expect that you should be happy every day. And even though I know every tip and strategy there is, and I talk about it in my work, you know, whenever I'm working, I still don't jump out of bed every morning with a smile on my face, which my children can attest to. And I think that's just because you've got to recognize that all emotions are normal and we have the full range because they're all necessary and useful to us. And whilst there are those kind of really joyful times when everything goes well, you feel really good, don't see them as the norm. You're not doing anything wrong if you don't feel like that every day. And finally, you know, what we talked about today, this idea that life is an adventure, not a race, and how important it is to enjoy the process and not to define success just in terms of reaching goals, it's being able to kind of explore, go off course, have a daily life that fulfills you rather than waiting for this end point that doesn't come.

And just seeing that there isn't a perfect formula. It's good to take detours. It's good to enjoy and be in each day, to go slowly sometimes and to really appreciate things. That's what means you get the most out of life. Amazing. That's such a nice way of looking at things. Well, thank you so, so much for your time today. It's been absolutely fascinating. We've loved having you on. Thank you so much for having me. And we'll be back again next Tuesday. So we're

going to be running season four for the next 12 weeks. So all the way up until Christmas. So hopefully see you back next Tuesday. And as usual, if you have a sec and you want to share it with a friend who you think would be helpful, or you want to rate it or review it, it massively helps the podcast, which hopefully massively helps lots of people who need a little pick me up in their Tuesday morning. So thank you so much for listening and see you next week. Thanks guys. You're a podcast listener, and this is a podcast ad heard only in Canada. Reach great Canadian listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn Ads.

Email bob at libsyn.com to learn more. That's B-O-B at L-I-B-S-Y-N dot com.