The Wellness Scoop - Mindfulness, Meditation and Easing Stress

Episode Date: May 25, 2021

Michael James Wong on how to bring mindfulness into your day, ways to let go of stress and expectation, redefining happiness and the benefits of slowing down. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Get groceries delivered across the GTA from Real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC Optimum Points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. Hi and welcome to our podcast, Delicious Ways to Feel Better. This is a weekly show that's focused on absolutely everything that matters to us at Delicious Yellow. At Delicious Yellow, we really believe that feeling good is a holistic 360 degree approach to our lifestyles and that wellness is about so much more than just what we eat or how we exercise. It's our relationships,

our mindsets, our sleep patterns, managing our stress levels, and just how we look after ourselves on a day-to-day basis. Each week, we'll be breaking down every single topic that impacts on our mental and our physical health to share small, simple changes that'll hopefully inspire you to feel better. And today, that means looking at the all-important topics of stress management, slowing down, mindfulness, meditation, and just instilling a little bit more quiet into our lives. So we're going to be talking to the brilliant Michael James Wong about that in a minute. I've got three very exciting things to tell you about before we get into it. The first is that we officially have a name for our new cafe, which

is going to be opening in about two weeks from today. We are called Plants because as you know, plant-based food is the epicenter of everything at Delicious Cielo. And for me, the more I get into it, the more research papers I read, the more passionate I become about the fact that plants is the future. It's just extraordinary the health impact that eating more plant-based foods can have on us. And what we want to do is just absolutely celebrate every single part of that and just show how unbelievably delicious, how interesting, how different, how versatile, how kind of mind-blowing it can be when you really get into it. So we will be welcoming you to plant in just a couple of weeks time. The aim is to be the leading plant-based

restaurant cafe in the world. So no small aim there. We have also been working on a really exciting partnership for our vegan chocolate bars later this year, which we'll be able to share more cafe in their world. So no small aim there. We have also been working on a really exciting partnership for our vegan chocolate bars later this year, which we'll be able to share more on in a couple of months time, again, about bringing that kind of more holistic 360 degree approach to everything that we do at Delicious Cielo and kind of really interweaving our app and our food products and everything together to just support overall well-being. And in that we've welcomed a couple of fantastic new instructors onto our app. So for those of you who aren't familiar with the app,

we've got 700 recipes on there, but we've also got over 250 different yoga, Pilates, barre, core, strength, cardio classes. And then we also have got mindfulness and guided meditations and breath work on there. And that's the section we're really focusing on at the moment to bring more content to. So we've got two fab new instructors. We've got Cordelia, who was one of our existing yoga instructors. So you may know her and she's got some beautiful pranayamas, so yogic breath work, which are just absolutely lovely. And then we've got an amazing new instructor who's completely new to the app called James Dowler. And for those of you who've been listening recently, you know that I've been talking a lot about meditation and breath work and how it's totally changed my life. The daily practice has literally shifted me beyond my wildest

expectations. And these practices that have just gone on to app with James is actually what Matt and I've done every single morning. So I can attest to the life changing power of it. So please do check them out. Let us know how it goes. For anyone who doesn't have the app, it's just 99p a month or $1.49. And it now has all cups and pounds in American measurements for those of you who are based in that side of the world. So I hope you really enjoy that new content. And now we will get into today's episode with Michael, who as I said, his big passion is bringing mindfulness to the forefront. So welcome, Michael. Thank you so much for joining us today. Hey, Ella. Thanks for having me.

So, you know, look, I don't say this to every single guest, although it's almost always true. I absolutely love your book. I've been on my own kind of journey into mindfulness and meditation over the last few months. Today actually marks day 75 of consistent daily meditation practice. So it arrived at the right time in my life. And there's so much of it that really, really spoke to me. I particularly

loved all the little proverbs that you've got dotted throughout. But I wondered if we could kind of take it back right to the beginning and just start with, I guess, the biggest, most broad question of all in terms of how you define mindfulness. Sure. I mean, thank you for those kind words about the book. It really means a lot. You know, as a meditation teacher, for me, mindfulness is very much the way that we see the world and live in the world. And, you know, for me, it's a very simplistic thing. It's being present, it's being aware, and being non-judgmental. For me, mindfulness is a way of being and a way of behaving. You know, it's about taking our time to pay attention and to give our attention.

And it's a way to really ensure that every moment that we have is meaningful. And how do you create the difference between mindfulness and meditation? Because I think as people start to come towards this practice, there's a little bit of confusion, I guess, almost in the practicalities of what you're doing at any given time and how you start to incorporate it into your life. It's a great question. And it's a question that is very common. What's the difference between mindfulness and what is the difference between meditation? I mean, if I work backwards from meditation, meditation is a practice, right? It's a tool. It's a way of actually taking a moment to pause and to use techniques that actually help cultivate this sense of awareness and attention. And mindfulness, I like to look at that as a state of behavior or an approach to living or a way in which we can kind of see and interact the world around us. And so oftentimes when we kind of look at this broad picture, mindfulness is the way that we can exist, where meditation is a practice that we can do or take a moment to feel.

So mindfulness is more the kind of practical minute by minute application of what's learned through a meditation practice. Yeah, that has a beautiful sense to it, where mindfulness is the wider view. It's the way that we see everything and the way that we engage everything. And we can just use meditation the same way as we can use yoga, the same ways we can use a walkout in nature, the same ways we can go surfing, as little practices that create this sense of peace and feeling of connection within ourselves. One thing I really liked is that you talked about the need for a practical application of that, because I think for people listening, and I know that was a hesitancy for me in the past, was the sense of, I hear what you're saying. And the idea of, you know, even five minutes of kind

of peace and calm is great. But I live a really busy life. How would this actually start to affect me on a minute by minute basis? And, you know, in the book, for example, you had that step by step meditation of making tea, which is something that probably lots of our listeners do throughout the day, especially if you're in England, I feel such an English practice as well as now, obviously, really inspired by the beautiful practices of the East as well. But it's something I think we can all relate to just those tiny little things we all do every single day. And can we bring that practice into them? Yeah, I mean, there's so many things within this conversation of mindfulness or meditative practices, quiet practices, as I like to call them, that can be very big concepts. And for me, my focus as a teacher is very much about how do we make this applicable, relatable, and all of our senses and sensations? How do we take a moment to just switch off and

tune in? Because if we don't have practical ways, if we don't have simple ways, if we don't make these practices easy for ourselves, it just becomes another thing on the list that becomes a challenge, another thing on our to-do list that we feel like we need to accomplish. And the reality of it is the simpler things are, the more often we'll do them. The simpler it is to have a meaningful experience or to feel a moment like having a cup of tea, that's where the benefit is. That's where the beauty of these connections are when we actually can say, you know what, I'm here and I felt it and it's easy for me to do.

And so I find value very quickly in it. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more on that. I've been taking this mindfulness-based stress reduction course, which has just been interesting further exploration as I start to get into this area and just personal fascination. And I found it one of the kind of home practices was to take those mindful pauses throughout the day. So whether you are walking to get a cup of coffee or something, but not taking your phone and deliberately just tuning into what you were doing, feeling your feet touching the ground, how hot is the coffee? How does it feel in your hand? What can you see? What can you smell? And

it's so extraordinary because I've been doing since lockdown started the same, what, probably six minute walk to our local coffee shop, I think every single day. And the number of times that I have not noticed a single thing, what the coffee actually tastes like. It's such a tiny practice, but it totally reframed my whole day. And as you said, I think it's amazing as you start to find the power of those tiny moments that punctuate your day and the amount of calm that it can bring, even if there is a lot of stress of what's going on either side of that. Yeah. And I think that's a beautiful way to look at it. I mean, for me, I always look at mindfulness is there's three key components that are necessary, right? There's sense of awareness,

and that's a big one. Can we be aware of the things that make us feel good? Like for you, you know, that sense of this six minute walk, can we be aware of actually how much value it has in our day? Because you've done it a few times, you've done it a lot. So you have this experience of how it makes you feel a certain sense of ease or peace or calm. But then from the awareness, you shift into intention. So I'm going to do it regularly. It's going to be something that I don't take my phone on. It's going to be something where maybe I go by myself and have this little breather. So there's this intention for it, which then leads us to have a sense of choice. So this consistency of saying, this is good for me,

so I'm going to do it. And so when it becomes practical, when it becomes simplistic, when it becomes regular and everyday and in the real world, then that's when little small moments of mindfulness create big shifts of wellbeing and bigger shifts in our mind and mental health. Yeah, that's exactly what I found. It's tiny things slowly accumulating to create a shift that I never really imagined the extent to which it could happen in what's really quite a short space of time in terms of 75 days. And one thing I wanted to ask you about, Michael, before we get further into this is mindfulness feels like such a buzzword. And I think, you know, in the space that we work in to do with health and

to do with well-being, I think there's a lot of marketing terms and a lot of buzzwords and a lot of things that are thrown about without perhaps us totally connecting to what they're really symbolizing. And I just wondered how you felt about that and how we can take it away from something that perhaps feels almost like a novelty to some extent and actually into something that is, as you said, that can be really profound practice. Yeah. I mean, mindful or mindfulness or living mindfully. Yeah. I mean, it has become something that is very commonplace. It's used quite often and it has quite a broad reaching way in which it touches a lot of people, industries, communities.

I mean, for me, I use the word sporadically, but I actually think there's far more preference these days to be a bit more intentional with how we're focusing our time. For me, I use words like, is it relevant? Is it valuable? Is it meaningful? Is this creating a sense of peace? Is it creating an ease in your day? Is it where you want to put your attention and how you want to use your time for me even shifting it into a space of making it

very purposeful makes things for me you know an easier way to connect an easier way to live mindfully you know in quotation marks because if we ask ourselves very simply is this what supports you then you know that's a beautiful thing yeah it's a nice way of thinking about actually it's quotation marks. Because if we ask ourselves very simply, is this what supports you? Then, you know, that's a beautiful thing. Yeah, it's a nice way of thinking about it. Actually, it's almost being mindful with your choice of vocabulary to be able to hone in a little. So I wondered if we could talk a little bit in your book, you have three sections that you go through, you've got hope, you've got healing, and you've got happiness. And each one is rich with so many things. I'm sure we

won't have time to cover everything but I wondered if we could start with the first section with hope there are a few bits I picked out that just particularly resonated and I really liked how you talked about incorporating gentleness and the prioritization of kindness and you wrote prioritizing kindness and compassionate behavior over singular acts of accomplishment not letting expectations steal from new beginnings and that your expectation when it came to your first meditation experience actually left you feeling miserable, frustrated and deflated, which I think is something that we can all relate to. So I'd love to delve into all of that. Perhaps we could start with that first experience that you had, because I think so many people will have felt the

same, which is that, you know, we've just been speaking for the last however many minutes about how wonderful these practices can be. And I know I felt the same when I first tried them. I thought, oh, I think I'm doing it wrong. This does not feel good. Yeah, I mean, that story. So, you know, for people listening within the book, there's a lot of little short stories, observations, anecdotes. And for me, that first story is about my first meditation experience or one of my first early meditations experience. And the irony is being a meditation teacher now, the first experience was always, you know, was miserable. It was challenging.

I didn't like it. I mean, I was 15 at the time. And it was this sense of, I think it's, you know, the way that we're all raised in Western culture, We're raised to be good at things, to be successful at things. We want things to be done as they're planned. And with meditation, there is no A to B. There is no do this and you get here. And so, you know, I started with huge expectations because I was trying to impress my friend's grandfather. I was trying to be quote unquote good at meditation

or this kind of quaint idea that we want to win at everything, even if it's something that is completely irrelevant to winning. You can't win at meditation, right? You can't win at trying to be good at these quiet practices. It's just about the time and the experience of it. And so I had challenges in those early moments, but what it did, it created this awareness of you don't need to be good at things. You don't need to be good or successful at meditation. It's just about the experience and the time is what the value is, not about how well you did in the time you had. Yeah, I do like that. I think someone said to me recently, the importance of also like each day treating it with a beginner's mindset. So each day just coming at it with fresh

pair of eyes and letting it be what it is. And some days you might connect well with your breath and you might feel that sense of relaxation and other days might feel a bit stickier. And if you keep coming back to your breath, you're still doing it right. You can't do it wrong. Yeah. And that's the challenge of living as a human being. Like everything comes with a past experience unless you choose for it not to, right? We have so many triggers that we grow up with, whether it's the sound of a siren, the, you know, the song on the ice cream truck, your mother's voice or your puppy's bark, all these things are past experiences that you bring into a moment. But until we choose to have

this beginner's mind, these fresh set of eyes, these choices to just have an experience as it unfolds, that's where the beauty and the magic of living is when we can let go of kind of all the things we think we know or expect to the actual dedicated practice into my life that's probably had one of the best impacts really of a level of appreciation that I probably was sometimes missing before. And I guess on that one of my favorite sayings is replacing expectation with appreciation. And in this chapter, you talk about expectation. And I think it's something that in the culture that so many of us live in, it's something that I think can be a huge challenge. We have huge expectations, I think, just on ourselves, on what we want from ourselves, on what we can achieve in any given day. You know, you can always achieve things, but you can't do everything. And I think we sometimes are trying to do the impossible. So I wondered if you could share your views on how expectations sits within all of this sense of trying to find

calm and trying to find ease. Yeah. I mean, expectation, much like temptation or distraction or desire, all of these things pull you out of whatever you're experiencing, right? Like it or not, humans are beautifully intelligent to their own demise at times. And so we can quickly try to project what's going to happen. We try to predict, okay, well, if I do this, and this is the situation, this is the experience, this is sensation. And we spend a lot of our times trying to outthink ourselves to go, this is what will happen in these moments. And through these practices and really diving into a space of removing these kind of additional stimuluses, we can step back into this place of appreciation, which I love how you said

it. And for me, that's where I kind of really lean into the idea of gentleness because gentleness and as it is kind of chapter one in the book is very much about that sense of prioritizing kindness, right? Having a sense of gratitude, appreciating this sense of connection for what is, because expectation, all it really does is it steals the moment because it allows you to be pulled in a direction thinking something may occur, even if it does or if it doesn't, but it's not whatever is. And one thing that I tend to say a lot is

we're living in a state of what is not what might be or what should be or what could be. And it's really the only perspective that we need to focus on. Yeah, I totally agree. I remembered what the expression I was trying to think of before, which is that you can do anything, but you can't do everything. I think it's always a good one to come back to. And you mentioned in that, which I think fits into that really well, the idea that ambition can steal the moment. Because if you're constantly thinking about where you're trying to project to, it's so difficult to be in the moment. And in that, you talk a lot about not rushing, which I think is something so many of us struggle with,

again, probably just coming down to trying to fit too much into any one day. And perhaps something people have been re-evaluating this year through the changes we've all experienced with COVID. But I wondered if you could, again, shed a little bit of light on that. Yeah, you know, the old proverb that says time flies when you're having fun. You know, these days, often time flies, because we're not paying attention. And, you know, I tend to find that the most beautiful things in life you want to enjoy slowly, you know, whether it's food, conversation, sunsets, long walks, fun things that you're doing with your friends. And oftentimes we're very good at attaching ourselves to ambition or action, success, to-do lists, or just feeling like the more we do, the better human we are today. And the idea of slowing down, while it is so obvious,

it's challenging for a lot of people because it has that sense of everyone else around us is moving fast. So we feel like we need to move fast, but then everyone's looking at us moving fast. So they think they need to move fast. So it becomes this kind of like cycle of everyone thinking that everyone else is moving fast, so they should move fast. So it becomes this kind of like cycle of everyone thinking that everyone else is moving fast, so they should move fast when actually choosing to slow down is actually quite a

brave choice in this day and age. It's quite a big choice to say, you know what, I don't need to do a lot. And I can still be really fulfilled within my day, I can be really fulfilled in my relationship, I can be really fulfilled in this conversation. I can be really fulfilled in this conversation by just saying, you know what? I can take my time, right? And it's a beautiful thing and a weird thing as well for a lot of people because most people's immediate response when anyone says, hey, how's your day going today, right? If I was like, Ella, how's your day going today? It's likely part of your response will have the words, I'm busy in there, or there's a lot going on, right? And that's just a natural thing that falls out of our mouth. But it's also perplexing that if you

asked me how my day was going, and I said, I'm not doing anything today, I've got nothing on, and I'm just kind of sitting around taking it slow, parts of our brains go, well, that's a bit weird. Why aren't you doing things? It's, you know, it's a Tuesday. And so this perspective that we all have of going, well, life is better lived in the fast lane. It's actually, I find that we just need to remember a lot of bravery in the kind of current world and the guys that we live in to actually say that you're going to do that because I think it's very easy to compare yourself with other people and other people are perhaps doing so many different things but if I've noticed one thing it's that I do things better when I do them slower and that there's there's a lot in that but again you talk about four paths of that fear overthinking uncertainty and regret.

And you said it isn't the mountain that needs to bend, but it's you who needs to rise. And I guess overcoming that fear of doing things a bit differently fits into looking at those four paths. Yeah, I mean, and thank you for saying that. I mean, in the book, it was really important for me to have different ways of touching people or connecting with people. And while there's some stories in there, there are proverbs, there's short poems, there's little things like that, that really kind of maybe switch on a light bulb or light a little spark within us to say, actually, here's a different perspective, or here's a consideration that actually isn't new, but just maybe reframed or just reminded. You know, I tend to do a lot of

my writing and teaching around a philosophy of gentle wisdom, ways that we're not forcing things upon people. We're not scolding people because they're going too fast. It's just almost saying, you know what, look how nice it would be if we did it this way. Or actually, maybe the choice is yours to make a change. And I often find with people, kindness helps shift towards kindness and changes happen when people see themselves within each other. It's been a really nice response to hear from people that these kind of little touches in the book are really received well in giving people that little sense of inspiration and perspective. You're a podcast

listener, and this is a podcast ad heard only in canada reach great canadian listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from libsyn ads choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with libsyn ads email bob at libsyn.com to learn more that's b-o-b at l-i-b-s-y-n.com yeah i really like it i found myself smiling kind of nodding along with so many of them and again i kind of can't not touch on this one because it's another one you mentioned within that chapter but stress which obviously is kind of the epidemic of the modern world but again the idea that being stressed really distracts our attention and i really i was noticing that a lot yesterday, woke up on early on a Monday morning, as you do, and

had this sense of kind of overwhelm of all the things that had to happen this week and all the things that had to happen yesterday. And I started my meditation practice with this kind of unbelievable to-do list running through my head. And then I just caught myself thinking, like, I don't understand what this is achieving. Being stressed about being stressed is like the biggest waste of emotion I've ever had. The only thing I should do is just sit down and start and then they'll get to where I get to. And almost just letting go of that, of the stress about the stress, the sort of secondary stress was really helpful, but again, hard to do. Yeah, it is really challenging to do. I don't think it would be fair or right for me to sit here saying that I don't feel stressed, that people shouldn't feel stressed.

I mean, the fact is stress comes by naturally being alive in the type of world and society we live in. But this kind of beautiful quaintness of being stressed about the stress, and that makes us stress, and then it compounds our stress, you know, that in the same way is kind of a minute sense of suffering that we choose to do, because we're holding on to an expectation, we're holding on to a validation, we're holding on to maybe something that we believe should go a certain way. And, you know, when I was writing this book, I did a lot of research, but almost asking around to people of an older generation, you know, grandparents age, older aunts and uncles, friends and their aunts and uncles. And when you speak to elders, oftentimes what's important to them are the obvious things, right? Family, time, long meals, good conversations. And, you know, without a doubt, oftentimes it's if they could do it all

again, don't waste time doing things that aren't important. Don't waste time on things that take away from moments of meaningful connection, moments that take your breath away, moments that actually make you feel good. And if you feel and find yourself in a single day, stressed out about being stressed because you have lots of things to do, then, you know, maybe simply ask yourself, is this something I'll remember in 30 years from now, 40 years from now, 50 years from now? And if it is great, do it. If it's not, and it's, you know, three emails and two parking tickets, then maybe we don't need to be so stressed about things that aren't going to be in the big story at the end. I couldn't agree more. And I guess that leads really nicely into the second chapter of healing and looking at forgiveness and patience and resilience and support. And again,

there was a lovely proverb there, which was, be not the hand with the tightest grip, but the one with the least to hold, which I loved. The idea of letting go of attachment is something that I've always found very interesting. I think it's something, again, as with lots of these practices that isn't necessarily innate in all of us and often the world that we live in, it can be difficult to let go of attachments and embrace the sense of uncertainty and that we don't have control of our lives and we don't have control of what's going on. So it's okay just to kind of try and flow with life rather than control that. But I wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about your experience with that and how you see that all fitting into the mindfulness concepts. Absolutely. I mean, attachment is a thing that all of us will experience. You know, it is, it's again, another one of these, what we might call micro human moments of suffering, right? And it comes from this essence when we look at Eastern practices and deep philosophy, is it comes from a sense of security and safety, right?

As humans, we all want to feel safe. We all want to feel secure. We all want to feel like we're okay. And so attachment stems from that because attachment allows us to have an understanding of our reality, of our situation, of our surroundings. Where it becomes maybe, I'm going to say problematic or maybe adverse in a longer sense of our lives, is that if we become too attached to these ideas or if we become too attached to these expectations or too attached to the ego of how we are perceived,

then actually it stunts any progress from coming back to a present moment, right? This part in the book, we talk about healing and I talk about the idea of returning to the present because oftentimes all of our attachments are attached to things in the past, past conversations, the way that people used to know us, the way that we used to think about ourselves,

the way that we used to speak to our family and friends. And so the attachments to this idea of ourselves or this idea of a concept or the idea of how things should be means that we're not actually being able to be in anything current. And if I'm attached to the idea that you and I maybe had walked past each other in a hallway a year ago, then it actually means I'm going to be stuck on the idea that, oh, well, we knew each other from way back when the reality is we're just in a moment now having a conversation and connecting on a level of thought and idea and of gentleness. But all these attachments are just stealing moments from us because

it's saying, look behind you, it's far more interesting than what's in front of you. And I think in the book somewhere, and I forget the chapter right now, is that, you know, it's the idea that oftentimes we spend too much time looking at our shadows without realizing that the sun's right behind us. It's a really nice way of putting it. I wondered how, it's something that I'm really interested in. I think the concept of attachment very much taps into it, but I think we see it a lot, which is this idea that I think, and I certainly see it in myself,

is I think sometimes some of the attachments that are scary to let go of, often in times of relationships around you, and it's not that you let go of caring about the relationships, but maybe not clinging on so tightly, is because you're perhaps feeling more uncomfortable in your own self and less secure in your own self. And so that vulnerability almost has to be kind of masked by deep attachments and maybe sometimes to slightly unhealthy extents with other people and with other things and that you need them to kind of safety blankets to some extent.

And I wondered how you saw that in terms of doing, for example, the inner work of the meditation and general mindfulness practices in order to create a more solid foundation in ourselves that then allows these practices to become easier to do. I mean, we're raised as individuals in community, right? We're raised oftentimes in families, in villages or wider networks of friends. We spend time in social gatherings and it's a big part of our existence. It's a big part of who we are, our social interactions, and they're important and they're healthy, but they also create a sense of external validation. They create a sense of our identity

and they create a sense of who we should be or how we should act. And I think the biggest challenge in this practice or in these practices is moving or getting towards a place where we don't need to have a label or a strong identity. We don't need to be a teacher, a mother, whatever it is that we start to cultivate as maybe our best way to identify ourselves. Because a lot of times, it's the easiest way to exist if people know about us, right? We don't like to be misunderstood. And so this is where that work comes in. We look at these mindful and quiet practices, how do we become really comfortable just being ourselves or just being without a need to do without a need to be defined. And I think maybe in the way that the world works these days, because we're so quick with everything and fast paced, and we like to

achieve that goes in hand in hand with how quickly can we understand people? How quickly can we define someone? How quickly can we explain them? So then I can go on to the next thing? And I find that a lot of time that where my work comes into this is how do we establish a level of both awareness and comfort in not needing to be defined externally? can be unattached to what you think, even if it's someone close to you, your best friend, a sister, you know, a colleague, someone who knows you really well. But it's that sense of I can be really in touch with myself. I can be really happy with myself. I don't need you to tell me that I'm okay. I can just find the place where I know I'm okay. Maybe it's nice to get a compliment or two, but at the end of the day, I know what's important for me. I know what my values are. I know I'm okay. Maybe it's nice to get a compliment or two, but at the end of the day, I know what's important for me. I know what my values are. I know what makes me happy. I know what makes me sad and that's okay. And we can move towards the place where we don't need to really

get that sense of what do you think? Because all it ever does, it creates either more attachment or it creates expectation or it loads the way in which we experience life and I often find and kind of like we talk about in the book is you know the best thing is a blank sheet of paper because it allows possibilities to unfold it allows space to occur and allows people to actually be free to enjoy do you know my question just before you said about the blank sheet of paper was whether or not you felt that allowed us to be more open-minded and I think you answered that perfectly with that analogy which is that if we're able to let go of worrying about what other people think about us or what we're doing or how we're acting then it's a lot easier

to be more open-minded to the people around us because we're not thinking the same about them. I would say yes, but because sometimes a blank piece of paper can be the scariest thing to people, right? Because what do I put on here? Should I supposed to write something? Am I supposed to type something? Should I fold something? Should I paint something? And it's that sense of, you know, beautifully, like you said before, take yourself back to

the beginner's mind, take yourself back to, you know, hanging out with children. I love hanging out with children. Like I love hanging out with children because they're not loaded by expectation or attachment. You give a child a blank sheet of paper and it's the most wonderful thing. These days you give an adult a blank piece of paper and then they sit there for 20 minutes trying to think about all the things

that they should be doing with it rather than what do they want to do with it. And also, I guess, doing it perfectly, right? That whatever you put on the paper has to be the perfect reflection rather than just being. Yeah. And that's the thing is the myth of perfection is very evident. I think one of my favorite Proverbs in the book says, don't shoot an arrow on a windy day. And that really comes from the essence of if we're always striving to hit a target, being perfection, the reality is if the wind's blowing a lot, it doesn't make a difference.

And so you're never going to accomplish perfection because there is none and there's no point because the reality is, is everyone is unique in their own way that they show up. And we should celebrate that. I completely agree with that. So I'd love to move us on to the third section on happiness which is I think the most fascinating topic and I know something that our listeners are absolutely fascinated in as well feels like one of the most nuanced things that you can talk about and you describe it as you say happiness just is it is not a thing to find or a destination to arrive at in fact it is the awareness to live in the moment completely and the freedom to choose wisely with your time it is not

something to hold in your hand it resides in your heart and is felt within the soul. When we remove the distractions of life, all that remains is joy. And again, just thought you put it really beautifully, but I would love to just hear how you see happiness. I think it's just such a complicated word. Well, thank you for saying that. And it's really, you know, it's really wonderful to hear that, that, you know, it's connected with you in that way. I think happiness can be a very loaded word. And again, can come with expectations, especially these days, where it's always the expectation of the achievement, it's always the goal. And, you know, I tend to think that happiness has to be something that is, you know, found within without being too cliche about it. I think much like a meditation

practice or any quiet practices, we spend so much of our life reaching outwards, right? You wake up in the morning and you reach for coffee or breakfast and you get the afternoon, you reach for chocolate or whatever else. And we find a sense of fulfillment with little external things. And it will help in a moment, like, you know, a piece of chocolate in the afternoon will give you a little uplift and it'll give you a certain feeling. But what's beautiful about when we start to realize that happiness is an inward practice is that it's something that's felt only to you. Like it's a very personal thing I find is happiness, right? I'm very happy sitting in my room and doing nothing or reading a book or staring out the window. For other people, that's misery, right? Sitting in your room, staring out the

window. But that's okay. Our happinesses don't need to align. There is no single destination for happiness. And I think that's where people can be misguided to believe that happiness is an achievement or a place as opposed to just an everything. And it's that feeling of not needing to go outward to grab things, not needing to kind of reach out and just realizing that actually happiness can just be the way in which you spend your time that you're happy with. It doesn't need to be this party or that party or this action or this thing. And I tend to lean really into the things that make me happy, which might be completely different than other people.

And that's OK. The other thing you said on unhappiness, which I thought was brilliant, was the idea that it's so interconnected with the concept of simplicity. And again, I feel like sometimes we live so much with that. Oh, when I concept, you know, when I get this, I'm going to be happy when I go on holiday I'm going to be happy when I'm able to achieve or buy or go to x y and z I will be happy and it feels like therefore we're again I guess it comes back to the levels of expectation and constantly sort of projecting ourselves into this sort of idea of perfect future which then just makes life so much more difficult because we're constantly striving to get to the next point. Yeah. I mean, if I was to put happiness as a practice,

I would say happiness is the practice of gracious refinement and the practice of simplicity. We end up being a lot happier when we don't need to do much or we have a lot less, right? Think about maybe when you go on holiday and you just sit on the beach for six hours and you don't do much, right? Those are the happy moments we remember, right? Or the time you spent six hours with your mother or your sister just sitting around on the sofa doing nothing, right? Or you went backpacking when you were 18 and you just had the same clothes on, the same one pair of shoes, and you had 20 pounds and that was your budget for the week. Your choices were removed. So everything became very simple.

Those are the moments where I find joy really kind of grows from. recommend people one thing to shift in their mindset or one practice to try and move closer towards that sense of gracious refinement and simplicity in order to feel more of the internal sense of happiness rather than the kind of external validators of it? What would that be? So I would say, and I mean, it is a big question, you know, find the one thing that makes you smile and do that often, right? And it doesn't matter what it is a big question. You know, find the one thing that makes you smile and do that often, right? And it doesn't matter what it is. If it's literally just reading your favorite comic books, reading your favorite cookbook, sitting there and making your favorite meal or sitting out and staring at the window,

you know, if it makes you smile and it doesn't take very much effort, then that's going to be a first step towards happiness. Because when you do that activity, then I would love for you to capture that feeling. And that's the feeling that is the inward practice. My father-in-law always says, I can't remember exactly the expression, but he always says,

you're not having a good time unless you acknowledge that you're having a good time. And the importance of acknowledging that. And I never really heard anyone say that before, but I, I always really liked that, which is that you never know what's coming next. And so there's just so much in acknowledging when, as you said, you are doing something that you're really enjoying. Whereas I think so often we, we do those things in the day, but we're so busy thinking about the next things that we don't necessarily enjoy them

as much as we think we are. Yeah. And if I add to that, I mean, one thing that I will say, and I've heard a lot is it's important to know when it's good, when it's good. Yeah, it's exactly that, isn't it? So, okay, I'd actually love to finish with a challenge, because I think that there'll be so many people listening to this. And I think I would have said the exact same thing a year ago, which is that I hear everything you're saying. I love everything you're saying. It sounds idyllic, but it's not for me because I'm too busy. This doesn't feel feasible for life juggling X, Y, and Z. And I wondered how you feel about that and about, because I think it is plausible to bring these practices into your life. It's just, I guess, to some extent about finding discipline and short periods of time to do it. But I would love to hear what you think.

It's a great question. And it's a question that often gets thrown out. You know, this all makes sense. I'm on board with you, but also I'm really busy. I'm not sure I have time. Right. And the way that I tend to talk about this is simply like this, is that we can all acknowledge that for most of us, the greatest commodity in our life is time, right? You have time, you have a finite amount of time and, you know, how you spend your time is critically important, right? The choices you make of how you spend the waking hours that you have, you know, how you spend your time is critically important, right? The choices you make of how you spend the waking hours that you have, you know, that is an important thing in our lives. And the one thing that allows you to make good choices is your mind. And your mind is the thing that dictates how you choose the activities you do and how you spend that time. And so if there are

practices, meditation, mindfulness, quiet practices, all these things, if there are practices in your life, whatever it is, right? It could also be walking in nature, spending time in conversation that give you a sense of fulfillment, that gives you clarity of thought, a sense of decisiveness, the ability to feel good about the choices you make, if there's practices like that that allow you to make the choices, that allow you to spend your time, the limited time that we have, how can we afford not to do them, right?

How can we afford not to take 10 minutes to sit down in a quiet corner? How can we afford not to take 20 minutes on a yoga mat? How can we afford not to take that half hour walk outside by the beach if that half an hour allows us such clarity, such feeling of fulfillment, such sense of peace, so we can then have a sharpness in the mind to say,

great, I'm going to spend my time with my family. I'm going to spend my time working on this project. I'm going to spend my time working towards this goal because my time is valuable and meaningful, and so I want to spend it this project. I'm going to spend my time working towards this goal because my time is valuable and meaningful. And so I want to spend it this way. I think the biggest myth that people find with meditation, mindfulness, quiet practices like this is that they think it's supposed to pacify them and it's supposed to put them on the sideline of life. These practices are actually the precursor to living. They're the support tools that actually allow you to really live life in

a really meaningful way where you have the choice on how you want to use your time, right? I often look at these practices very much like food, fuel, gas, the charge on your phone, right? You can drive your car as fast as you want. You can use your phone however which way you want to call whoever you want, but if there's no charge in the phone, no gas in the tank, no food in the belly, then at the end of the day, you're not able to do anything. And so my point always is these are just the tools and the fuel and the support so you can actually live your life the way you choose to and the way you want to. I hear that completely. I was always the person that said I didn't have time and reached a moment of peak kind of frazzledness and decided I had to

find time. And it's exactly what you said, this idea of a precursor to life, because it's extraordinary what a 20 minutes first thing does in terms of making the next five hours infinitely more focused, infinitely more enjoyable, much more clarity. Even if I took 20 minutes away from another activity, I feel like I gave it an extra three hours in terms of what I was then able to bring to it from my mindset. Yeah. And that's what people tend to miss out on that actually in the bigger picture of life, these are actually some of the shortest, quickest, most time-saving things you can do, right? A 10-minute meditation, right?

And so, I mean, we have our Just Breathe meditation app. All the meditations on there are 10 minutes. The breath practices are 10 minutes. But actually, by doing that, it creates such a long-lasting after effect, right? It becomes such a long, impactful way. Just think about it. You stop for gas for 10 minutes and you can drive for six hours, right? You charge your phone for an hour. You can use your phone for a day. Stop, do a

little meditation, breathing practice, you know, 10, 20 minutes. And that's not just the moment. That's the support that then fuels everything you do afterwards for the day. Great. I love that idea of a gas for the car and the phone charge. Well, Michael, thank you so, so much for your time today. It's just really inspiring. And as I said, I absolutely love the book. I'll put all the details in the show notes. It's out this week, the week that this is going live, and I hope you will take as much from it as I have. And as I said, Michael, thank you so, so much. Thank you so much. We have two more episodes running after this, and then we are taking a break for the summer. Enjoy everyone. Have a lovely day and we'll see you back here next week.

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