The Wellness Scoop - Plant-Based Diets for Children

Episode Date: April 20, 2021

Everything you need to know about raising plant-based children from protein to calcium, iron, fat, carbohydrates, omega 3, milk, B12, vitamin D and so much more. With dieticians Whitney and Alex from Plant Based Juniors.  Alexandra Caspero & Whitney English - Plant-Based Baby & Toddler See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit BetterHelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com. Hi, and welcome to the Delicious Yellow podcast with me, Ella Mills, again missing my co-host in action today. But our podcast delicious ways to feel better is a weekly show that's focused on everything that matters to us at deliciousiella we really believe that feeling good is a holistic 360 degree approach to our lifestyles and that wellness is about so much more than just what we eat or how we exercise

it's our relationships with ourselves and with others our mindset our sleep patterns our stress levels and just generally how we look after ourselves on a day-to-day basis so on this It's our relationships with ourselves and with others, our mindset, our sleep patterns, our stress levels, and just generally how we look after ourselves on a day-to-day basis. So on this podcast, we're going to be breaking all of these topics down, looking at absolutely everything that impacts our mental and our physical health, and sharing the small, simple changes that will hopefully inspire you to feel that bit better. So today we're going to be looking at plant-based diets for children. I know how we bring up our children can be a very charged, emotive topic and this is absolutely not about creating a one-size-fits-all approach. It's just about understanding the data, the possible benefits and also understanding the

state of health for children in the world today. So I hope it's going to be a very helpful episode. And before we get into that, I wanted to let you know that I'm very excited to say that our EU shop is back live again on our web shop www.deliciousiella.com we have had a nightmare to say the least since Brexit started as I'm sure lots of other people have had as well and we can only apologize for not being able to send so much to you guys over the last few months but that is live now you can get our letterboxes with our best of snacks you can get our caramel cups and get our oat bars so please do have a look at that if you've been missing delicious yellow products in your lives this week i have been filming for hours and hours and hours for our app i am back

filming the yoga videos again which feels so good and we've been putting together some little programs as well a five day to ignite your practice and a 30 day program as well to really inspire you to get deeper into the practice so that has been brilliant and those will be going live from next month I think so thrilled to be back and if you're enjoying practicing with us on the app then I hope you're going to enjoy those so one of the questions that we get all the time through to the podcast inbox podcast at deliciousiella.com with any of your questions but through social media and through basically since the day deliciousiella started is about feeding children a plant-based diet and obviously we've had more and more of that since we've had

children people wondering what we're cooking for our girls what they eat whether we'll be raising them with a plant-based diet and the very short answer is yes we are going to be raising them with a plant-based diet that being said it won't be in a dogmatic fashion I really do believe that ultimately how we eat is an individual choice and that's obviously something that we do need to respect but that being said as a society I think we all understand that we desperately need to eat more plant-based food both for our own health you know in the UK only one in five children manages to eat that five a day only one in four adults we're basically 50% of the minimum intake of fiber that we one in four adults we're basically 50 of the minimum intake of fiber that we should be getting and we know that we desperately need fruits and vegetables

and whole food plant-based ingredients for our health but also the health of the planet you know i'm sure lots of you have seen the recent documentary for example on netflix sea spiracy showing just what damage we're doing to the oceans with you know up to 46 of plastic in the oceans coming just from fishing nets you know plastic straws being 0.03 percent like literally a drop in the ocean so the conversation is changing and I think as adults it's one thing to look at changing our diets but I think looking at the way we're changing our children's diets can be really complicated and an emotive topic as I said so as parents we're going to educate and support the girls in learning to cook and understanding more about their food and how it supports their well-being and the reality of climate change and the role of a vegan diet in that.

So I do hope that this is what they'll do. But as I said, I don't think we can be dogmatic about it. And that is really important. So we're going to be exploring this topic further today with Alex and Whitney from Plant Based Juniors. They're both mums and they're registered dietitian nutritionists with master's degrees who are passionate about having a very evidence-based conversation on the topic. So welcome guys. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks so much for having us. Thanks for having us Ella. Your book's absolutely brilliant. It's an absolutely amazing resource for anyone who's interested in this and huge congratulations to you both on it. And in the book, you talk a bit about kind of setting

the scene for children's health in the world today. And I think, for me, it feels really important that we start there. Obviously, what we're talking about today, and what we're all very interested in and passionate about is exploring a plant based diet for children. But something I've come to recognise more and more is that both with children and adults, it feels like so much of our conversation gets so focused on the nuances of a healthy diet, whether it's solely plant-based versus pescatarian and so on. And obviously, there's lots of different factors to bring in their environmental and health. But it feels like sometimes we get so het up on the health side of

things and exactly which is the best version of health versus actually looking at why moving into this topic altogether is so important because of the crisis and health today and you've got some really powerful stats in there that one in every three children in the US are overweight with one in every six being obese and those rates are even filtering down to preschool age now with obesity affecting almost 14% of preschool children. And I actually did a bit of research for the UK just for comparison. And here we're almost one in five children being overweight or obese when they start primary school. And that goes up to one in three when they start secondary school. And a really powerful stat is that 20%

of year six or 10 to 11 year olds in the UK are actually obese. So it feels like we've got pretty similar statistics in the UK and the US. And I wondered if we could just start there and why you feel it's so important that as parents and also as passionate advocates for health that we have a conversation around children's health in general, as well as specifically plant-based. Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty easy to say that where we're currently at isn't great. And I think it's pretty easy to say that where we're currently at isn't great. And I think that sometimes as plant-based parents, we sometimes feel like we're on the defensive, you know, sort of saying that, well, we're choosing to raise our children this way, acting like the alternative is sort of this pillar of health.

And that's just not the case. A standard American diet or standard westernized diet is very high in processed foods, very high in meat, and very high in dairy. And so I think that our stance is really sort of saying that, look, the standard isn't great. And I think that a lot of us are trying to figure out what is the best way that we can raise our children. And one of the things that Whitney and I are really passionate about is the idea that just the more plants, the better. You know, I know that there's a message out there that it doesn't matter where you're coming on sort of the quote unquote plant-based spectrum, the more plants is going to be beneficial. We know that all aspects of plant-based eating are going to have a better effect on health than we're

currently doing. You know, childhood obesity, it's such a charged topic. There are so many factors that go into that there are systemic issues of course and we really try to sort of meet parents where they're at but we also know that we can all do better and I think that getting more plants on the plate is just going to have such amazing outcomes when it comes to obviously individual health but also planetary health as well. Absolutely and I'm sure you both have found the same as parents. But one of the things that has really struck me is this kind of quite stark shock that some people would have in perhaps raising a vegetarian or a plant based child, and that people are really shocked that you would give your children tofu and broccoli,

but not shocked that you would be feeding them lots and lots of McDonald's or chicken nuggets to some extent and obviously you said Alexandra it's a really complex topic and it's obviously it's all those social economic factors in there and it's not to dismiss those but I think it's just this cultural norm where it's normal for kids to eat loads of cookies and ice cream and biscuits and processed foods but it's not normal to eat lots of tofu and broccoli and chickpeas. And I think that's the thing that I really struggle with as a parent is being on the defensive for that when the norm is so far away from health and children's menus of burgers and chips. So it's pretty ironic, as Alex said, that people would consider the standard American diet to be

the pillar of health. We have a shorthand for the standard American diet to be the pillar of health. We have a shorthand for the standard American diet here in the US, and we call it the SAD diet because it really is. It's a dismal diet. And we see that as westernized diets are spreading globally, we're also seeing these disease rates skyrocketing in conjunction, which really shows that there's something wrong with this pattern of eating. You mentioned about hot dogs and McDonald's. I think that a lot of parents truly feel like they are doing the best they can for their children. And they hear these messages like,

oh, hot dogs are full of proteins that must be good for my children, or cheese is a really good source perhaps of calcium. They hear these messages and they think that they are doing the best they can. And I think what we're trying to sort of shift away and say, yes, hot dogs do contain protein, but they also contain a lot of other things that we want to be really mindful of. And the foods that we're encouraging, like beans and legumes, contain protein as well. And they contain all of these other nutrient-rich items. And really trying to sort of shift away with the typical foods are for kids, you know, chicken, for some reason feels like it's this health food for a lot of people, and it's not. And so I think parents think like,

oh, a chicken nugget is just chicken. And that's just not the case. Absolutely. It's such a difficult topic. I feel like we're gonna have to caveat it with we so appreciate as parents, that it's not easy by any means and this conversation by no means aims to be guilt inducing but then equally for me at least I feel like whilst it's not there to induce guilt I do feel these are important conversations to have because it's become so normal to eat as you said the standard American diet the standard Western diet and as a result there's a safety in doing that because it's the status quo. It's the norm. You know, it's what everyone's doing. And when you challenge that, it feels scary. But there's so many reasons to challenge that. On that, you describe yourselves

in your book as predominantly plant based, which I really like. And I think it's a nice way, as you said, Alex, there's a sliding scale of plant based. And I think it's a really nice way of positioning it. And I guess I'd love again, just to focus in on that before we go into the conversation further, just to set the scene. It's not about a dogmatic approach. If you have to be a vegan or you have to be plant-based, it's just about more plants. Yeah. I really don't think it's about the idea of labels. You know, I think sometimes that makes people feel more defensive and kind of ignores the overall message. It's hard to argue with more plants.

And we also know that we're not eating enough of them. You know, the CDC here, that's Centers for Disease Control in America, says that only one in 10 of us are eating enough produce. And that also includes children. And, you know, that just feels like we can do better. And that same report also says that if we all just included one more serving of produce a day, that we could decrease cancer deaths 20,000 annually. So, you know, we're not talking about huge shifts either. We're just really sort of encouraging this predominantly plant-based approach. And, you know, like we sort of said in the beginning as well, it's yes for individual health, but I think as parents, we're also looking at the world

we're leaving our children. And so, you know, my sort of why is, yes, I want to raise my children as healthy as I can. But I also want to make sure that the choices I'm making are the best for, you know, the planet as well. And planetary health to me is just as important sometimes as that individual health. By taking an all-inclusive approach, we really feel like we can move more people towards this eating pattern. Some of the recent studies that have come out on global planetary health have shown that we need everyone to reduce their meat consumption. We need everyone to cut back. It's not going to be enough to have a small group of people eating an exclusively plant-based

diet. So if we can keep the door open to saying, hey, you can join us. You can just cut back on animal products and meat a little bit. You don't have to jump all the way on the wagon. We think that's a lot more palatable message for most people. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think it's interesting. I'm sure you guys have seen it, but for example, that new documentary that just came out on Netflix, Seaspiracy, that's causing a lot of conversation. It's just interesting when you view documentaries like that. I think as it starts to shift more and more people, adults start to think, okay, I'll go towards plant-based and

then this question of what do I do with my kids? Is this healthy for them? So I wondered if we could drill down further into that and understand, because as far as I understand, the scientific consensus is that an appropriately planned plant-based diet is absolutely safe, if not likely beneficial, both for us as adults, but also for our children. But obviously, there's a lot of myths and concerns and criticisms because this is so new and not something obviously that we've seen a lot in children. So I wondered if we could start there with just understanding why it's safe and dispelling those terrifying myths that I think people have in the back of their head. Sure. So like you said, it is a consensus, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Academy of

Nutrition and Dietetics, the Canadian Pediatric Society, and really most organizations, health organizations worldwide all agree that appropriately planned diets are safe and likely even beneficial for vegan and vegetarian and other plant-based types of diets, starting in pregnancy through infancy and all the way through old age. And this is based on a plethora of research. However, like you said, a lot of people are concerned. And one of the big concerns, I think, is nutrient deficiencies. That's what we hear a lot about.

But if you focus on the key word in that statement, it's appropriately planned. So of course, if you're not including all of the appropriate nutrients in your diet, you're going to have nutrient deficiencies. But that can really happen with any diet. That can happen with a Western diet. That can happen with a paleo diet, whatever diet you're following. If you're not appropriately planning it, you're going to run into some trouble. And that's really why Alex and I started Plant Based Juniors and why we wrote this book, because we wanted to give parents easy to follow instructions on how to easily do it because it's one thing to tell people how to eat and it's another thing to really show them how to eat and how it can work

into their lifestyle especially for busy parents absolutely and i think what's interesting what you said there whitney which is something that i feel very passionately about as well is that it's relevant for all diets like in order to meet what you need, all diets need to be effectively appropriately planned. Like all diets need to be well-balanced and have a real variety in them. And I think that is an important caveat because I think, as you said, there's often this nervousness,

oh, vegan diets will be deficient in X, Y, and Z. And of course, every type of diet has a possibility not to have abundance of certain things. But equally, that's the same. You said the sad diet, a normal children's diet, that would lead to a lot of deficiencies in other vitamins, minerals, fiber. We know fiber is something that's massively deficient in almost everyone's diet. I think something that really highlights that is that the number one most common nutrient

deficiency is iron. And that's in adults and children. And that's regardless of your diet. So vegans, vegetarians, plant-based eaters have the same rates of iron deficiency as omnivores, and yet iron is one of these nutrients that we're constantly hearing that we need to worry about on a plant-based diet when really everyone needs to worry about iron intake. It's not a fail-safe to eat a Western diet and think that you're going to get all the nutrients that your kids need. Unironically, you know, in toddlers especially, iron deficiency anemia is usually related

to high intakes of cow's milk because cow's milk is not a good source of iron and it contains calcium. And so if these children are drinking sort of cow's milk all day long, then they're inhibiting how much iron they're going to be absorbing from other foods. So it really is sort of this idea that appropriately planned, as we've been saying, is truly for every single person. And of course, as dietitians, yes, that's what we want. And our book is really there to empower parents who want to raise their children this way and also want to feel really confident that they're, you know, focusing on those nutrients that possibly are a little bit

harder to find in a plant-based diet and doing it in a way that feels really adequate to the diet that they're serving. And as we move away from all the fear and look at the facts, I think it's, and you do note it in your book, it's hard not to have the conversation without noting that you do occasionally see those kind of terrifying headlines of child dies on vegan diet and just caveating that that is not what we're talking about here. Sadly, those are, you know, cases that are related to malnutrition and really starvation. You know, when you dig into those unfortunate headlines, you see that that child is perhaps raised on almond milk instead of breast milk or formula, or they're fed only fruits and vegetables,

or they're on some type of restrictive plant-based diet. We do not recommend raw diets or macrobiotic or any sort of like other quote-unquote plant-based diet for children just because there's not enough of the nutrients that are needed for growth during this time. And so, you know, sadly, those are the things that we're looking at. But I think sometimes you see these headlines and look, I get it, you know, we're parents too. You know, when those things come out, it's like, oh gosh, are we missing something? And we dig into it. And sadly, it's not the vegan diet. It is those cases of just malnourishment and starvation. How do you guys sit on the vegan versus plant-based conversation? I always think it's

quite an interesting one. For me, plant-based is much more sort of representative of a plethora of whole foods and beans and legumes and all those sorts of things and vegan is maybe a little bit more processed and I wondered where you guys sit on that and how you describe it and what the relevance is of lots of ultra processed food for children versus more whole foods. Yeah so we consider veganism to be an ethical decision versus plant-based is a little bit more of a nutritional consideration. Obviously, people who follow both diets probably care about both nutrition and ethics. But if we're talking about a distinction between the two, veganism really means cutting out all animal products in order to end animal suffering.

Whereas plant-based diet is more focused on incorporating more plants in your diet and more, like you said, whole, unprocessed foods. Also with the plant-based, we feel like that offers a bit of a spectrum too, so that we can include a predominantly plant-based diet, more plants on the plate versus having this very strict, rigid, dogmatic approach to the way you're eating. When we talk about highly processed foods, Alex and I want to point out a couple of things. We try to avoid those labels. Yes, we know that highly processed foods are not great for us. They're associated with numerous chronic diseases. But I think when people get tied up in the semantics of it, they kind of lose focus of what we're trying to achieve with the diet. Because if we're just talking about processing, almost all foods in the diet are processed. When you cut a slice of bread, it becomes processed. When you cook cans

and put them in the bean, they become processed. But I would much rather see you eating those foods versus eating an unprocessed piece of meat, for example. So we try to get away from those labels because assigning labels to the food can really introduce an element of shame. And when we're trying to instill positive lifelong eating habits in our kids, we really want to avoid shameful references for food because what the research shows is that actually when kids feel like they're restricted or start associating emotions to their food intake, it actually leads to poorer eating patterns. So there are certainly things

that we can do as parents to try to encourage the consumption of more whole foods and limit the consumption of these less nutritious options. But I think it's important to also introduce the concept that yes, these foods are really prevalent in our food system. And yes, kids are going to eat them at some point. So let's think about ways that we can approach it in a gentle fashion that doesn't create this shameful association for kids. Yeah, I think there's a lot sometimes of like black and white thinking. And so, you know, we both have friends who say things like, well, I used to be vegan, or I used to be vegetarian. And I think sometimes those labels sort of come with the idea that if you stop eating it once or twice, and all of a sudden, you're not something anymore. And so we really try to say like, look, you can be plant based,

and you can have a little bit of animal products, if that makes you feel like you're not going to have this, you know, sort of like all or nothing thinking that works for some people, it doesn't work for everybody. But also the idea that we can all eat quote unquote, vegan meals, we can all eat vegetarian meals, kind of stripping the label away from it, I think, actually makes it more inclusive. And like Whitney said, too, we know that ultra processed foods are not great. We don't want them to be the cornerstone of any diet for our children or for adults either, whether that's, you know, coming from a vegan processed food or not. But also the reality is that it's going to be very hard to completely limit them with your kids.

You know, they're going to go to birthday parties. They're going to go to school. And we want to sort of do it in a way that says, how are we offering this versus structure versus restriction? But doing it in a way that's really healthy. You know, I love dessert, too. And there's sometimes I want to go and have, you know, a really delicious cookie or cake or whatever it may be. And my kids are going to be the same way. You know, we eat healthy whole foods most of the time, but that also means we're allowed to have these sort of more delicious,

highly palatable foods also is what life is. And that's sort of how we eat for life. It's kind of interesting that you bring this up today because I actually had my first encounter with, I would say, a really highly processed food with my son, who's almost three. Thanks to the pandemic, we haven't had too much exposure with the outside world in the past year. And we don't really eat those foods at home. So he hasn't been exposed to them. But he goes to the park regularly. And they were having a little birthday celebration for a child there. And my mother-in-law texted me and said, they're serving red velvet cupcakes. Can Caleb have one of them? And this was kind of one of those pivotal moments where I had to decide whether restriction

or a structured approach is going to be best for Caleb. And I let him have it because I didn't want to create this feeling of an outsider, of that these foods are bad for him while the rest of the children were enjoying it. Am I going to now buy red velvet cupcakes from the grocery store and serve them at home? No, that's not going to now buy red velvet cupcakes from the grocery store and serve them at home? No, that's not going to happen. But it creates a nonchalant kind of feeling about it. It's no big deal. And that's really the best way to introduce these foods to kids, to not put them up on a pedestal. Because when they become up on a pedestal, as you know, with probably your own diet,

when it's like you absolutely can't have this, many people end up wanting them more. Yeah, I completely agree. My husband and I have obviously talked a lot about this with our daughter Skye. She's almost two and it's similar to you, obviously living in a pandemic. She's not had much exposure to it, but thinking about it going forward, that's exactly our opinion is that it's very important. We're very passionate about the reasons for a plant-based diet from a health perspective, as well as from a planetary health perspective but equally letting her feel very

much part of things and that food isn't a big deal and not overthinking it and having a sense of intuitive eating and a really nice balance in her mind is paramount I think to this going forward into her future and so I really agree with your approach so going forward into her future. And so I really agree with your approach. So going forward into a plant-based diet or predominantly plant-based diet for children, what are the kind of fundamental benefits? What is it that by really changing the plate so that it has so many plants on it, what are we doing for our kids? Because there's so many negative conversations out there about how terrifying it is, but what are we doing that's actually positive? Yeah. So there's really, really good evidence, number one, that plant-based kids eat more fruits

and vegetables. So that sounds really simple, but given the statistics that 90% of kids aren't eating enough, that's a huge benefit. And also taking into consideration that the eating patterns that they establish early in life are those that are going to carry over later in life. And we know that diets rich in fruits and vegetables are associated with a lower risk of numerous chronic diseases. So setting them up early to regularly be eating these in their diet is an amazing benefit. We also see lower cholesterol levels. We see that they tend to have healthier body weights. And again, these are all things that are going to carry over into immense benefits later in life. It's a little bit harder to pinpoint the specific health benefits of a plant-based

diet in kids just because there hasn't been as much research as there has been on adults. In adults, we can pretty confidently say that almost any numerous chronic disease that you think of, whether it be heart disease, diabetes, cancer, all of these things, you have a lower risk if you eat a plant-based diet. But the information that we do have on the research on kids is suggested that all of these benefits are likely transferred to children as well. Yeah, I think one of the biggest things is that we're also setting our kids up for really a lifetime of success. You know, when we're introducing these foods young and they become part of the normal diet, the foods that our kids are used to eating and therefore like eating, then, you know, all of these benefits that Whitney just mentioned that we

do see in adults, we're giving them sort of this head start. You know, we're really sort of filling their plates with these nutritious foods from the very beginning. And so it doesn't have to become this shift when they're adults into, you know, eating healthier or eating because they're worried now about risk of chronic disease. It just becomes, well, that's what we always did. You know, this is sort of the diet that I grew up on. And I think that's one of the biggest benefits that we can do by starting, you know, that more plant predominant approach as early as possible. There are a few specific research studies on plant-based kids that suggest some other benefits as well. For example, research shows that about nine in

10 kids aren't eating the recommended amount of fiber, which we talked about earlier. And fiber is so, so important, especially in early life, not just for ensuring proper digestive function and preventing constipation, which is a major common problem with toddlers, but also for building a healthy gut microbiome. And we're just at the tip of the iceberg of learning how the gut microbiome can have widespread effects on health. But so far, we're seeing things like it can potentially produce metabolic compounds that have a wide range of effects, including immune functioning, as well as establishing appetite regulation and even reducing the risk of cancer. So helping to start building

that healthy gut microbiome early in life is so, so important. And not surprisingly, we see that plant-based kids do eat a lot more fiber on average than omnivorous kids. And that really makes sense, right? Because whole plant foods are the only source of fiber. Animal foods don't have fiber. So of course, kids who are eating a diet that is surrounded around plants are going to have a higher fiber intake. Stop sitting on your Aeroplan points and get big savings

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all the macronutrients and the micronutrients that people I think worry about and wonder where they're going to get them from so I wondered if we could kind of drill down and get a little bit more specific now starting with the macronutrients and so understanding because I think protein is something that people are terrified about not just with children but adults I mean I know for me since I changed my diet the number one question is always like, where do you get your protein, protein, protein, protein, protein? And I know that protein deficiency is also really quite uncommon. And it's something that I think we're perhaps overly worried about in the Western world versus deficiency in iron, calcium, et cetera. But it is a question that I'm sure you guys see all the time

as well. Yeah, it's so funny. We don't see protein malnutrition in developed countries. It just, it doesn't happen. And yet people are so afraid of not getting enough protein. And I think that's really perpetuated by the media and the fitness industry that says more protein is better. But when we really look at the research, we see that most people are taking it about double the protein they actually need. And while people are concerned that plants have less protein, a fun fact that I always like to share is that every single plant food, every single whole plant food actually does contain protein and contains all nine of the essential amino acids.

That's something that is a common myth as well, is that if people aren't concerned about the total protein intake, they're concerned about the protein composition and whether plant foods have all of the essential amino acids. And really, they do. Everything has protein. Even your coffee has protein. So it's not a concern. And there are plenty of plant-based sources that are really high in protein as well. A one to three-year-old only needs about 13 grams of protein on average, and two cups of soy milk can achieve that without even getting to the food in the diet. So protein is not a problem on a plant-based diet. Yeah. And talking about all

of the macronutrients, so protein, carbohydrates, and fat, the other benefit of plant-based foods is that they're not just sort of these single foods, right? So we think about like animal foods, like butter, for instance, is going to be almost 100% fat. A piece of chicken breast is going to be almost mostly protein, but plants aren't. They're this beautiful combination. Beans are going to be carbohydrates and protein. And so when we're focusing on filling our plate or filling our children's plate with more of these whole food plant-based items, we're not worried about macronutrients. There's no need to sort of like figure out, you know, what percentage you're getting because you're eating

foods in their natural state and you're eating them sort of how nature intended, and you're going to be getting this balance of macronutrients. We do have something in the book called our PB3 plate, and this just sort of helps parents, I think, have a nice visual cue of what the plate should look like. It's very kid-friendly. It's cute. Whitney and I both have a copy printed up on our refrigerator. And it's really the breakdown of plant foods. You know, we've got our legumes, nuts, and seeds. We've got our starches. We've got our fruits and vegetables.

We're highlighting certain nutrients that we really want to focus on. So things like fat, iron, and carotenoids and a little bit of calcium. And it's just sort of a way to say, Oh, yeah, if I'm serving my child beans, I don't have to worry about protein grams, I don't have to worry about carbohydrate grams, I just know they're going to be getting them because I'm filling that portion of that pp3 plate. That's a really nice way of thinking about it. And as you said, I think people can overthink, especially with protein, with children's diet. So there's obviously the beans and legumes and the nuts and seeds. And then do you guys also focus on things like tofu, tempeh, quinoa? Where do you feel about that?

Yeah, so our plate's broken down into three major sections. It's the legumes, nuts, and seeds is one category. And that's where your soy foods will fall under, your tofu, your tempeh, your edamame. Then we've got grains and starches, and then we've got fruits and vegetables. And basically, by filling something in each one of those slots, you're likely to cover all of your children's macronutrient needs and their micronutrient needs. And micronutrients are those vitamins and minerals because those micronutrients are found in those categories. And like Alex said, we kind of highlight and call out where they are. Iron's at the center of the plate because iron is actually in all three of those categories. And also fat's at the center of the plate.

And that's something really important to highlight as well, is that a major difference between an appropriately planned plant-based diet for kids and one for adults is fat intake. Babies and toddlers need about 35 to 40 percent of their calories to come from fat. So it's really important to make sure that you're getting enough fat on your kids plates. One way to do this is through whatever milk you're providing whether that's still be breast milk or if you're giving a nice plant-based alternative they're going to get a lot of fat that way. But also you want to be including fats regularly. So avocados, which

falls in the fruits and vegetables, you want to be adding nuts and seeds from the legume nuts and seeds category. And using olive oil and cooking, there's lots of different ways to make sure you're getting fat in the diet. But the whole point is that you look at the plate, you see what you're serving, whether that be tofu, and then you look and you say, which categories am I missing something from? How can I add something to this plate to make it more well balanced? Yeah, nut butter is Sky, my daughter's favorite food in the world. She like looks at me, points at the cupboard and like starts heckling. She now eats it out the jar, which she's clearly, clearly my daughter. So moving on, let's just get into carbohydrates quickly, because I think that

can be another confusing area. I know it's one where slightly more binary terms can be used in the media, you'll see like good carbs and bad carbs and complex carbs and simple carbs. And again, I think that could be quite a confusing conversation, both for adults, but then also for parents thinking about how to feed their children. Yeah, so when we talk about carbohydrates, for the majority of time, we're really talking about whole grains. And so whole grains are going to sort of be that intact grain or using the whole grain in the processed food. So for example, a whole grain is going to contain that fibrous, really nutrient-rich

germ in the center of it. And then it's going to contain the endosperm, which is that starchy part. When we talk about more refined grains, what we're really talking about is just taking that starchy endosperm and then adding it and making that into, you know, different kinds of milled refined flours and using those in baked goods. But when we're talking about the whole grain, we're using all three parts. And so we love whole grains. You know, we really think there's no reason to fear whole grain carbohydrates, things like rice and oats and even whole grain pastas. And, you know, sort of a whole intact grain

that's going to be beneficial for your child and then the other thing that Whitney and I do talk about a lot with our younger children so older infants younger toddlers is the idea that not all refined grains are bad and that's to say that refined grains are highly palatable and so sometimes if you have young children that are having a harder time eating enough calories or perhaps filling up too much on fiber, you know, fiber is so amazing for so many things, but it's also filling. And sometimes with these, you know, small little appetites and small bellies, if they're not eating enough, it can be because they're filling up on those nutritious foods. And so sometimes parents find that offering, you know, refined grains some of the time helps their child to actually eat more. And so, you know, we don't like to sort of say none of these foods are allowed or things are bad or things are good. Most of the time, if we can offer whole grains, great.

But then also not being so afraid of some of the refined grains, especially if they serve us a need, like I mentioned before, for those sort of, you know, special needs for kids? Yeah, we call it the whole grain paradox, where before two, but especially before one, from the six to 12 month period when you're starting to introduce foods, kids on a strict plant-based diet get tons of fiber. Like we said earlier, fiber is literally in anything. So unlike the kids on the Western diet who aren't getting enough, kids on a plant-based diet are getting a ton. And that's awesome for all of those lifelong microbiome building benefits. But for our little tiny ones, their stomachs can fill up too quickly. So we recommend that parents, specifically before one, and then you can kind of adjust this from one to two based on your child's intake, offer about 50% whole grains. And that just prevents them from getting an overload of fiber when we're trying to get them

to get a good intake of all these different vitamins and minerals and not fill up too quickly. Yeah, I know for us when we were weaning with Skye, like just simple sourdough was an amazing tool just as a way of like doing avocado toast or hummus or peanut butter. And she always loved it. And it was just a great way of them being able to layer on other flavors and other sort of textures and different nutrients as well. It was really, really helpful. It's an awesome vehicle. It's in our kids' diets every day. And aside from not just being afraid of it, people should be excited about it. What the research really shows is that diets rich in whole grains reduce the rate of, again, numerous chronic diseases and inflammation as well so it's

kind of the opposite of what you hear actually about bread and carbs and grains yeah that's good to hear um i think there is yeah it's just all of these sorts of topics isn't it there's a lot of clickbait headlines misrepresenting if it just becomes a minefield for people to navigate and i think that's one thing for an adult when you're taking responsibility for yourself and such a different thing as a parent, when you're taking responsibility for someone else. So going into more depth again here. So iron, we already mentioned, and again, something that people I think are nervous of on a plant-based diet, but as you said, it's something for us to all be so aware of whatever diet we're following, whatever diet our children are following. So on a plant-based diet, where do you look for your main sources of iron? So our main sources of iron are coming from that legumes,

nuts, and seeds category. Really all beans, nuts, and seeds are going to be good sources of iron, as well as from the whole grains category. The big thing that we want to really encourage parents with that as well is it is true that iron found in plants is the non-heme version, and that is going to be less bioavailable than the heme version that iron found in plants is the non-heme version, and that is going to be less bioavailable than the heme version that's found in animals. There's two really big ways that you can help to increase the bioavailability. The first is to pair any sort of iron-rich food with a source of vitamin C. So all of the recipes that we create in our book have an iron-rich source, but also a source of vitamin C. And that's because that vitamin C is going to help that iron be absorbed by about four to six times. The other thing is if you're

serving grain products, you can opt for sprouted products. I don't sprout my own grains, but I do buy sprouted bread or, you know, sprouted lentils, you know, that's going to just automatically have a more bioavailable source of iron. but also zinc it's going to be usually higher in protein so there you know sort of are two things that we say for parents the vitamin c one is really easy a lot of us naturally already pair iron rich foods with vitamin c right we think about like black beans and we might put some tomato salsa with that we're going to eat a whole grain pasta we're usually going to put some kind of tomato sauce on that so with the vitamin c which is another one on my list what are your kind of main sources that you look for that I presume this is something and as far

as I understand, would be very rare to have a deficiency in a plant based diet and would probably be something that you're having more than enough of. But again, just great to understand where you're looking. If we look at how we kind of learned about vitamin C, that it really shows how little you need. It was sailors who had absolutely no fruits and vegetables. I think it was back in the 1800s. They realized that just giving them a lime or a lemon to kind of squirt into their mouth during these long sea voyages prevented the nutrient deficiency, which is known as scurvy. So basically, including all whole plant foods from the fruits and veggies category will likely end up meeting your vitamin C needs.

But some that are like particularly high in vitamin C include things like strawberries, citrus fruits, again, the lemons, the limes, bell peppers are a really awesome source, cauliflower. Potatoes. A lot of kids like potatoes. You know, that's a good source of vitamin C. Yeah. And again, we show you how to pair those in a really kid-friendly way. It's nice when you hear that, as you said, these sorts of foods, the idea of increasing your iron absorption by pairing a potato and a butter bean, for example, suddenly seems so not scary by any means. It's a very normal food. It's not really doing anything kind of really out there or really crazy in order to meet those needs.

So you actually just mentioned zinc, I think, a second ago, Alex, what about zinc in the diet? Yeah, so zinc is is sort of found in many of the same foods of iron, we're not as concerned about zinc intake. If you're focused on iron rich foods, you're automatically going to be getting enough of your zinc rich food. So we're really big fans of sort of that legume and bean section. We find that's a great way to get in so many nutrients. But we also know that not every kid likes beans. And so, you know, Whitney and I really try to get as creative as we can in offering different ways. We've got like snack balls that contain white beans and chickpeas in them. We make a lot of beans into different kinds of meatballs. We puree beans and add them into our pasta sauces,

you know, just trying to help parents who might say things like, oh, I wish I could let my child eat like this, but I don't think he's gonna eat, you know, two cups of black beans a day. My kid's not going to either. But there's lots of different ways that you can offer in these types of nutrient-rich foods

in ways that are very highly palatable and kid-friendly. A good saying is it's not nutrition unless it's eaten. And I think especially as plant-based parents, we hear like, oh, you can meet their needs as long as they have a cup of broccoli and a plate full of beans. And you're like, my kid's not going to eat any of those things. But it just takes a little bit of creativity and getting comfortable in the kitchen. And you realize are many many ways to get these things in non-traditional ways like Alex said like with the bean balls and all kinds of other recipes that we've got yeah and then again that's the same for any parent isn't it you know whose children aren't keen on fruits and veg whether you're plant-based or not I know for us

things like lentil bolognese is just brilliant because Skye loves pasta she'll always eat pasta and lentil bolognese to her basically looks like tomato sauce pasta, but it's got grated carrot and onion and garlic and loads of lentils. And it's always a massive hit. And again, I found she wasn't a great eater to begin with by any means. And I found again, doing things like toast

with hummus or butter bean dips and just burying up the beans, for example, that you put in that or doing like a roasted red pepper in some of them. That was always a hit because she loves toast. For anyone listening, especially if these kind of foods aren't the norm in your house, it doesn't have to be all or nothing overnight. You know, I think that's something that we really try to encourage is the idea that start small. You know, if your child loves pasta, which a lot of kids do, can you offer a whole wheat pasta next

time? Slowly increasing the exposure your kids have to these foods are gonna make them much more likely to accept them over time. And, you know, really making them part of the family food. We're really big on the idea that, you know, what I'm serving my children isn't that much different

than what I'm serving myself and my husband. You know, this is sort of the food that we all eat. And so if you're thinking like, oh, I'd like to start eating more plants or offering more plant-based items, great. You know, you can start small, especially if your kids are older, and perhaps a little bit more resistant, because sometimes kids can be, you know, meet them where they're at. And then you can sort of grow as a family. Yeah, absolutely. And again, I really echo the fact that it doesn't also have to be really

difficult. I know, like for me, if I'm short on short on time and I'm struggling I'll do pesto from a jar with a whole wheat pasta and then I'll just put in a tablespoon of lentils from a tin and some frozen peas and some frozen spinach I mean it is literally the least sorry Sky I love her but like it's the least effort yeah one pan chuck everything in drain it stir pesto I mean it's so easy, but then you're getting peas and spinach and lentils and she just thinks she's having pesto pasta and everyone's happy. So kind of going further down the list, what about the omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids? Because I think that's something as well that can be generally a confusing topic for adults and children, but also a question on a more plant-based diet? Yeah. So as we discussed

before, fats are so, so important for kids. And really we want to opt for these healthier fats in the diet, which is easy on a plant-based diet because it's naturally low in saturated fat. But one specific fat, DHA, which is an omega-3 fatty acid, is really, really important for baby's brain development. And we see that from about pregnancy through the first two years of life is when DHA accumulation in the brain really ramps up. Now this creates a slight bit of a conundrum for plant-based parents as DHA is mainly found in seafood. But the key is, and this is what not everyone likes to point out, is that DHA isn't naturally found in seafood. Fish accumulate DHA by eating microalgae. So an easy way to fulfill that need for omega-3 DHA in your diet is as a pregnant or breastfeeding mama

to supplement with an algae oil supplement or to provide those same supplements to your kids. And the research is not there to suggest that kids of all ages really need omega-3 DHA supplementation. But we think that given the known accumulation of it in the brain during the first two years, Alex and I think it warrants supplementation during the first two years of life, if you can afford it. Because algae oil can be a little bit more of an expensive item for many families. Yeah. And I also want to point out too that some fatty fish can contain DHA, but they also contain other things. They contain dioxins, they contain environmental toxins, they contain mercury, which can also be really detrimental to growing brains. And the other

thing is that even if your child does eat seafood, they're likely not eating the higher quality sort of fattier fish. The most common fish for kids is fish sticks, which contains very little DHA, or other sort of processed like fish filet type of items, which are not going to be the same thing as like a tuna or a salmon. So, you know, we just feel like it kind of is a safer way to offer a DHA supplementation for the first two years of life. And then after that, you can offer things like ALA rich fats, so walnuts, hemp seeds, chia seeds, and that's all going to then be converted

into DHA and EPA. On that, I have to say one thing I find so helpful is smoothies for Skye. Yes. Because with the hemp seeds and the chia seeds, for example, probably not something that she's going to be like over the moon about just because they don't taste that exciting. And I find a smoothie for me on a day that maybe she's not eating so well. I find it so helpful. You can do a banana and some berries. Then I'll add some nut butter. I'll add some hemp seeds, some chia seeds, some oats, whatever. And I find that she loves it.

And I know that she's then also had that intake. So that is something I have certainly as a parent found really helpful on the days where I feel like there's not been a great balance. Wherever you can sprinkle a seed in, we highly recommend it. I put it in our oatmeal every morning. I use them making vegan eggs and our waffle recipes and our pancake recipes. So there's so many different ways to incorporate seeds in the diet. So before we talk about supplementing further, the last one I really wanted to touch on was calcium. Because I think, again, that's a big question in terms of obviously the tradition is that children drink a lot of cow's milk. And I know just anecdotally from parents and part of the Delicious Yellow community, whether or not people are totally plant-based or not,

I think people are very aware of the environmental impact of cows and the dairy industry and probably themselves are moving away from such a massive focus on dairy, if a focus at all, and aren't necessarily loving the idea of their children then consuming so much dairy. Because obviously, if you're drinking several cups a day, that really is an extraordinary amount of it. So from an environmental perspective, I think could feel like a real sticking point, but also I think can feel very scary because that's such a part of the norm. So almost feels like one of the scariest things I think as a parent, and I know I felt that myself actually is, that was one of the things I was most nervous about not to do. It makes sense, right? I mean, we're told so often that cow's milk is calcium. So not taking cow's milk in the diet does feel like, well, now where am I going to get my calcium? But you know that cow's milk is calcium. So not taking cow's milk in the diet does feel like, well, now where am I going to get my calcium? But cow's milk is not the only place to get calcium.

Calcium is found in so many plant foods. It's found in tofu. It's found in fortified milks. It's found in broccoli. It's found in tahini. It's found in white beans. It's found in broccoli. And so we do want to encourage as much as we can getting calcium from these whole food plant-based sources. The one thing that Whitney and I do talk about a lot is the idea that I think it's different from an adult perspective where I can say something like, oh, I need to eat more of this today because I know I want to get more of that specific nutrient in. Or, oh, I'm going to add in perhaps some tahini to my salad because I know there's

nutrition in that. And I like that food and that's really easy for me to do. When it comes to perhaps a pickier child or a child who is a little bit more resistant to things, that's sometimes where I think parents can also feel like, okay, well, yes, these foods contain calcium, but my kid doesn't want to eat them or eat them in enough amounts. So now what do I do? In the States, there are fortified plant based beverages. So that means that you can offer perhaps a pea milk or a soy milk, and it's going to have the same amount of calcium and vitamin D that's going to be found in a cow's milk. And

it's also going to be just as bioavailable. So that's one option that parents can do. If you find that your child really isn't eating these calcium rich sources, Whitney and I find this like calcium carbonate powder that we stir into our homemade yogurts, just sort of a way to sort of add in a little bit of calcium, essentially taking a calcium supplement, but because calcium supplements are so much harder to digest and absorb. So there are ways to get around that when it comes to supplementation or fortification, but also really focusing on where calcium is naturally found in the diet. Yeah, calcium is so rich in a plant-based diet. It's found in cruciferous vegetables and beans and oranges.

The list just goes on and on. And good news also is that the bioavailability of calcium in some of these foods, like leafy greens or the cruciferous vegetables, is actually twice as bioavailable as it is in dairy. But then you run into the issue of whether or not your kid is going to eat a bunch of bok choy or broccoli or whatever it is. That's where it really needs to have an individualized approach is that for those kids that are willing to eat a lot of those things, they're not going to need as many fortified foods.

But if your kid is a little bit pickier, maybe you are going to be focusing a little bit more heavily on the fortified foods. But if your kid is a little bit pickier, maybe you are going to be focusing a little bit more heavily on the fortified foods. So on that one last question is B12, because obviously, again, it's something that comes up the whole time as well of like, well, if a vegan diet is natural, then why would you need to supplement it? Which I think is, yes, it's a challenging question, I think. Yeah, so I did a deep dive on that in our introduction chapter to the book, We have a whole section on is a plant-based diet natural? And we kind of go one by one and combat all these myths. Like we combat why it is still natural, even though we're taking vitamin D supplementation,

because you're not out in the sun all day anymore. And we get down to the B12 and we go into the many different aspects of B12 supplementation. And ultimately, yes, we likely through the course of human history obtained B12 from animals in some form or another. Was that the exclusive source? Probably not. There are some arguments that people may have been getting B12 from dirty water or vegetables that weren't cleaned. But also a trade-off is that now in the modern world where we don't drink dirty water and we don't eat dirty vegetables, we're not getting as many infectious diseases. So we must supplement B12. It's not naturally found in plant foods in a

reliable amount, but that's perfectly okay. We're not doing a lot of things that we used to do in the past. And that doesn't make a plant-based diet not natural. We think that's kind of a moot point these days. I think that was the most fantastic answer. And I completely agree with you. I think if you can, in a very simplistic way, have a profound effect on the environment for the cost of a spray of vitamin B12 every day, it feels like a win-win-win-win-win in our book, definitely. And I totally agree. I think that the fear of supplementation almost feels like a win, win, win, win, win in our book, definitely. And I totally agree. I think that the fear of supplementation almost feels like it holds people back from arguably doing the right thing for the world, whether you do it 100%, that's completely your choice. But

going in this direction feels like, it feels like we don't really have a choice. I think Matt and I feel that in five years time, that this will be the norm. And there'll be nothing strange about what our children do. I mean, the recent study from Oxford showed that if everybody moved to a plant based diet, it can reduce your individual carbon footprint by up to 73 percent. And they said it's the single most important thing that you can do to fight climate change. We interviewed him for the podcast, Joseph Kaur, who did the study. He was just fascinating. Yeah. Research continues to show is that human health and planetary health go hand in hand.

What's good for us is also good for the planet. Yeah. Well, look, guys, is there anything else you'd want people to know about plant-based diet or raising children before we wrap this up? Yeah. I think just, you know, if any of this piques your interest, and you want to learn more, we tried to put everything that Whitney and I really wanted to know about raising kids this way in our book, The Plant Based Baby and Toddler. We say it's sort of like the comprehensive guide. And we go through all of these nutrients step by step, we go through meal planning ideas, we go through our pp3 plate, we talk a lot about division of feeding and responsibility, different kinds of feeding parenting styles. We have so many recipes, 50 recipes in the book as well. So we definitely pp3 plate we talk a lot about division of feeding and responsibility different kinds of feeding parenting styles we have so many recipes we have 50 recipes in the book as well so we we definitely

encourage you to to grab that this is something that you'd like to explore further we have a lot of great authors on here and i've read a lot of great books but i really would like just a second that i know when i started out with sky that there were no books. I was absolutely blown away actually by the fact that I could not find a book on this topic. It is the only book I have found that's good on this topic. And it is amazing. So if any parents are listening or potential parents are listening,

I genuinely think that if this is what you'd like to do with your children, that you need it. So I will put all the details in the show notes. But thank you both so, so much for your time today. We really appreciate it. Thanks so much again for listening, everyone. Please do share the episodes, rate it, review it if it was helpful. And we will be back again next week on Tuesday. Thanks so much. Bye. You're a podcast listener, and this is a podcast ad heard only in Canada. Reach great Canadian listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn Ads.

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